Clash of the podcasts! Our Big Fat Collab Episode!

Denver was on the other day and I'm so glad that Andy and Denver Baker talked ahead of time about what we were going to talk about , because had Denver come on , the three of us would have just and not with the plan the three of us would have just be asked . Then we probably would have talked an hour before we hit record . You know what I mean ?

Yeah , it's just I kind of like that format where you guys , you know you're comfortable about what you're talking about , you're comfortable with the guess , where you just it's just kind of spur of the moment stuff , right .

As soon as that red button is hit , we just start talking . Like you said , john , we might feel comfortable talking about what we've talked about , but I'm going to tell you I never feel comfortable coming up with an idea .

I never think an idea is good in my own head , like I don't know about you guys for your guys's podcast and I'm not saying you'd question who you're going to have on , but just probably coming up with those questions .

I got to imagine you feel a little bit the same way , because it's like you want so badly for this episode to be cool and somebody want , you know , take somebody away from it and somebody learned something about that other person or whatever .

But ultimately you sit down , you hit record and maybe in 30 minutes , maybe it's 40 minutes , Like you got what you got and what if it wasn't ? Like super , super fun or something like you hoped ?

And so I'm kind of like you , tim , where I start to like I wouldn't say overthink it , I just we come up with ideas sometimes and I start to think , no , that's not any good , that's not going to be any fun for anybody . Like that's not interesting , is it ?

And usually it's the stuff that I don't think is going to be super interesting is the stuff that really , you know , we get the most messages back on like , hey guys love the podcast , been listening for a while now . This episode really stood out , you know . And there's the one I'm like really about cleaning the van , you know that was the one .

Is the feedback in the , in the , in the response you get , in the listenership .

there that you can Google , search and be like how you know when is a podcast successful and and it's interesting to to think about that and go , well , is , is 10 views ? I mean , did 10 listens ? Is that a good thing ? Is a hundred , I mean , or am I not successful until we hit a hundred thousand ?

I don't , I don't know , I mean what , what's the , what's the thing ? And so it's interesting to say that , but I guess I go back to it saying the same thing that I don't know what would be any different about recording it .

You're like trying to pull conversations out of people that just don't want to talk and you're like we didn't anticipate it to go that direction .

Yeah , hopefully somebody will listen to that one . Thank God for automatic downloads , um , but looking back , I think I , like I was going to say I don't think it's a silver bullet , but there's a couple of things we know .

Like Andy and I don't interview people because we're not good at it , but you guys do , and that that's what's so cool to me about the appetite for construction podcast is you're talking to people in the industry , which is more normal probably for a podcast , especially in our industry plumbing , heating , construction overall um , you guys are bringing in people that

are not only interesting to listen to , but you don't . It doesn't seem like you guys have a boundary and says , no , we're going to stay in this lane and get these kind of people only because , I mean , I've listened to people on your podcast about making whiskey that started their own business distillery to listening .

The most successful , one of the most successful plumbing and HVAC contractors in all of Texas , has been on your show more than once , which I thought was fascinating conversation about just how they run their business , how they treat their employees . To literally the head of Milwaukee tool . Yeah , you know what I mean . So what a different I can't think of .

You've had armed forces veterans on talking about the causes that they're passionate about , whatever We've had other contractors on . When we talk with them , we're having a conversation . When you guys talk with them , it is an interview , but it sounds more like a conversation to me , yep ,

and so I think I was going to get , you know , not a silver bullet , but the fact that we're not trying to do something we're not good at is probably why we've had a little bit of luck and had more fun and success . And we keep doing this .

You know , both you guys and us , because if we're trying to do something we're not good at , nobody's going to listen , which brings me to the next thing . So , you guys , I was looking last night and your podcast , the appetite for construction podcast , which is a killer name , by the way .

I would like more of a guns and roses vibe on the logo , but I like what you got .

211 episodes ago , the four of us talked and it's just titled in ours , introducing our quote unquote sister . I don't know why we called it sister and not brother . That's kind of funny podcast . Not dead yet . And so , like number 12 , that was our 12th episode .

It was 37 minutes and it was probably us just talking about the same things that we've started this one with . But a lot has changed in a couple of hundred episodes . You guys are not far behind it . You guys are over 200 episodes , right .

And , tim , you guys I started saying a few minutes ago , but of course I am super good at getting off track , but , tim , you guys were putting together some topics to talk about a John , you had some and you had one , and I had , admittedly , like only one in my head that I didn't share with anybody . So that's a big fat zero , that's for sure .

But , tim , I saw your list and I thought it was pretty interesting . You had , um , you had brought up right away , uh , about the trade shows that you know .

So at the beginning of the year or in the winter time , it seems , I don't know why they have heating trade shows in the winter , but we , we all go to these big trade shows , the ISH , our expose , like the biggest one , of course we went to . All four of us went to Germany to the ish show , ish , and that was awesome .

But your , one of your topic ideas was like what have you guys , if anything taken from you know something you learned at the , at the trade show , uh , whether it's a product or you know , maybe software or whatever , and are you using it in your business , and I guess I'm going to let Andy reply to that first , because I'm trying to think I got one , but I

want to . I want to hear what Andy has to say .

I'm playing with that . I don't know if we're going to do it or not . Um , just trying to figure out how , some way to integrate pictures and stuff into our software . And that was somebody that I had bumped into at uh , ahr or builder show , I don't know which one it was .

Anyway , claire , I bumped into Claire there and anyway , I think we I guess we talked to her at the , at our podcast , when we were recording Um . She stopped in and talked to us . But so you know , giving that a shot , and I'm trying to think other than that I , I mean , I haven't picked up any new tool that well .

But my thought was are there products or services that you put into your tool bag or your arsenal that , um , is making a difference for your business today ? So that was my question .

Um , I think that that aspect of it , to me , anyway , is where I look at what's outside of my little bubble of Missoula , Montana . You know you get stuck .

If you don't ever go outside of your bubble , then you get stuck in doing the same , roughly the same thing that everybody else is doing and you're buying the same product because you don't know that anything else is out there and you know .

So , having the involvement in this , the podcast , having the involvement with Mechanical Hub , um , to me has been a lot of that , you know it's , it's a lot of that eye-opening . I think it's , you know , part of the . You know , one of the reasons why Eric and I hit it off so so well , early on whatever 15 years ago was that or what .

I guess 12 , 13 years ago , something like that was that we had a similar , I guess , desire to know what's new .

It's like the rigid flex shaft but it's Milwaukee's chain version and high speed chain snake I think it's called , and that's a cool tool . It's actually made me a lot of money . I saw it in person . I wasn't going to buy it until I could get my hands on it because it was a little on the higher end for cost .

So I thought that was cool for like , just like , literally like . I want to answer this question . This is a thing I got because I saw it at a trade show . But ultimately my other answer was going to be I've been listening to Brian Ores podcast more than I had listened to it prior to this last HR .

But I talked with him a little bit at HR and I listened to his episodes from HR because he records there to the HVAC school podcast . So I've been listening more to that because he's just like super pro on like . He doesn't ? He's not like some of the I don't know if that it's not like the bro cast .

They just get on and goof off and you know , and they have one name , but they say they really don't talk about that topic or whatever . I'm not picking on anybody , but like I was surprised , like just how professional his system is , like his school online stuff .

So that was one of the things that I actually took away from this HR , which probably I should have done years ago , admittedly , but you're so busy and you don't realize , like that wasn't part of the exhibit . But I took away from the show , being really glad I attended because I got time to actually really notice and think about this particular other podcast .

That was entertaining to me and I'm learning a lot on it . But I don't know , john , like do you guys , john , you Tim too ?

But you guys see , like all the press releases come in and when we see those new products , like sometimes we've already seen them , like you said , like we already kind of know before the show , but like after the show , sometimes it's like a year later we see the press release come in from that product we did see at that show and you know , like what do you

guys think of that ? When you know , like is it always , do you think that these companies are able to get this stuff to the market fast enough ? Or , like they're going about it , do you think that the trade shows are still useful ? I do .

Now companies are putting product out throughout the year . So it's changed a little bit . But for the most part I still think there's a huge value in trade shows .

But so all four of us went to Ish and you know , we got the chance to walk the floor all together and for Tim and I it's kind of cool to watch you and Andy interact and talk about the cool stuff , or hey , let's go over to this hall and let's do this , and hey , you know , you kind of get sidetracked and walk over and see something cool .

The stuff you're seeing over there is that readily available here ? Is it something you're like ? Well , we're never going to see that here in the next 10 years . How do you process that ?

And I said , oh yeah , I don't work , you know , just doing the AHR thing here and going to end up at

Ish here in a month . And you know , and he's like , oh , that's good , that's awesome . I said , have you ever been here ? Yeah , yeah , yeah , I went to the strip joint of you know plumbing once before .

I'd really like to have that , but there's no way that I can . And some of those things are those . They're not big things , you know not , or shattering , like oh it's this new , you know massive HRV or something like that .

You know it's the flat pancake style bottleneck trap that goes in behind a drawer so that you can have drawers underneath your under Mount Lavsink and I'm like that's cool .

The reality is this and this isn't the fun answer , but the fact is is a lot of what we see over in Europe at that show , our products that have not and will not be put through the ringer of our ridiculous standards like ANSI standards , things like that ASTM stuff to meet the code requirements in manufacturing of the what you know how it may may mechanically

work or the material it's made out of or how the material was put together , and all these things that require these UPCs and the UL listings , and all this stuff that , like the majority of European and countries all over the world , are like , yeah , that's a little more than you need , like that's a little overkill for a P trap going underneath a sink , you

know . And so we don't get to see some of this really cool . And I say cool because , like , honestly , we see a lot of neat stuff at that show and it's so fun to go . Anybody that's ever thought like you want to go to Germany and want to see like the biggest plumbing and heating at the same time trade show in the world .

That's the one that ISH , but I , we , there's a lag on a lot of it . That's the other side of the coin too , right ? So , like we do , like Andy said , we do see the stuff here .

The problem of it majority of it is at least similar , or maybe it's just a different branding or style of something , but like the equipment , like this year , we saw a million heat pumps , everything was a heat pump , right , yeah ? So I went to go get a coffee and , like I think I swear the coffee machine was a heat pump . You know what ?

Like Veeceman , you know , like Veeceman comes up with a new model boiler that's only in Europe . Maybe it's only in Germany first and then , or you know , europe proper , and then it goes to the UK , then it comes to the United States and you know , we get it like three years later . You know what I mean .

So , like I don't know , I still enjoy going to the show . It's still super , super fun . It is the biggest thing I've ever seen like in one place .

In fact , we have a manufacturer here with that , electro Industries , and I've installed dozens , like literally dozens , of their boilers and but the electrification of stuff , like it's interesting , because I feel like it was this unfortunately , or I don't know if it's unfortunate , it feels like to me it was like this buzzword and I say that because I don't I'm not

talking about with anybody else . It feels like I don't go to my salesman and like they get it's not brought up , like well , we're going to do that in electric . Now you know what I mean . Like it's just not , I don't know . I thought it would be more prevalent .

It was mainstream until it made it through all the legislation that had to happen , and now that it's through the federal side of that and it's now trickling down to the states , I think it's you know , if you dig for it it's there , but it's not mainstream media anymore .

Legislation , it's this buzz topic and then you know , the manufacturers are talking about it .

But the manufacturers in the North American market probably are working as hard as ever to produce those products that they need to answer the , you know , the building demand , this demand that's being , I wouldn't say , manufactured , but it's just budding and it's not fully enacted and enforced and everything like that .

Because some states are trying to get rid of gas but , like we've already seen , like no , we're not going to get rid of cook stoves . That's ridiculous .

Basically is what you know the Congress has said , and so it just there's these big movements to push for this electrification of everything . And then we're in that spot where , like , the manufacturers are trying to like , hold on , we're trying to catch up , and I think that's why it's gotten quiet , like that's my take on it . I think we have that .

This is the mantra of Mickelson plumbing we find the newest , greatest , latest product out there and we want to buy one and put it in somewhere because I'm convinced that it's going to work . And then I cannot , for the life of me , find an application for it .

It doesn't go any bigger than 14kW , and I think it does now , but at the time it didn't and I needed like an 18 or a 20 and I was like , oh well , yeah .

Right , it's called off peak and it was to , it's to alleviate pressure on the grid . And it makes a lot of sense all these years later that Minnesota was doing this way back then , saying , you know , look , we've got a lot of construction happening and more stress put on our grid and we need to figure this out .

And so the electric utility companies are saying , well , we could store a ton of water , well , heated , only at night , when nobody's using a lot of electricity .

But we have to have a lot of water , because we're not going to give you power to this water heater during the day , when you're going to use your water , because you're not using your water in a typical house , you're not using your water when everybody's sleeping , right , you don't need , you're not showering , you're not using hot water , you're not doing laundry

or dishes , and you know two in the morning . And so this these companies were having us put in , these giant storage water heaters , and it turns out the best one for the job , it seems , is made out of plastic and it's built like a cooler . It's like three inches of polyurethane foam , spray foam , insulation , with a plastic tank and a plastic jacket .

And this thing , it's electric . Obviously , the ones we would put in typically for new construction would be 105 gallons , and that's easily twice the size of most tank water heaters in any house in America .

105 gallons is that's a very , very , and so to get 105 gallons in a tank , contain it and encapsulate it with three inches of foam , and this thing is the size , oh , I was going to say what's the footprint of that thing ? Well , it's like easily like 28 inches diameter , but it's like six and a half feet tall , you know like it's .

It's so big but it doesn't weigh anything because it's just made out of plastic and foam , right , I mean obviously weighs something , but yeah . So the first time I unpacked it is like what in the world is this thing ? It's so big . And I can remember builders at the time were like oh , we have to make a bigger door on our mechanical room now .

Like we had a house where it wouldn't fit in the doorway because it's a mechanical room . So they like I don't know how a builder thinks they're going to save the budget by cutting an inch off the you know width of opening width of their mechanical room . But apparently that's where they cut .

You know sort of make all their profit because they put the narrowest door in that room or something else and we couldn't put the water heater in it . On the finish , stage .

The element , the heating elements in it , will be replaced . But even heating elements and water heaters last you know a dozen years or something crazy . And so they the manufacturer , used to be a company called marathon and then ream bought them . Mm-hmm and then it was ream marathon . That's the model , right . So it's a ream marathon .

Water here , I don't even know they call it marathon anymore , but um , that I think they still have the manufacturing right here in Minnesota , but in the Minneapolis area . But the they put a lifetime warranty on it . They said to the original owner like this should never need to be replaced , just install it properly .

Yeah , and the failures I think were always attributed to Somebody not following the very simple directions . You know , don't turn . The fitting on the top of it Were you . You got to hold it , hold it with a wrench before you turn . You know that's kind of thing and very simple stuff . But yeah , they're real , they're really popular here actually .

So like that's the electrification was starting years , you know . Like at least there's a base to it , and so we weren't fully unaware that this is a thing . And then don't forget to like we live in northern climates , right .

So like Gas , when somebody says you have gas in your house , natural gas , propane , like that's not None of us in this call would like even flinch , like that's so normal to us because we live in Cold heating climates , right , I'm in climate zone six , which is about as close as it gets the United States and so , like we're not gonna go fully electric and if

we are , it's so much more of a job than it would be if you were in , you know , missouri . It just isn't the same heating system , even if it is electric , is so much different to get through that crazy swing and temperatures and stuff like that , and so it's not as if it were new , it's just we're trying to figure out how it's really gonna work .

But the rest of the country not outside of Illinois , montana , minnesota we're not isolated , but you know you got like only like a third of the country . That gas is so super normal , right . And then the rest of the country , because the most common heat source and Water heating system are electric in the United States . Yeah , that's the way it is , it's not .

Yeah , that's not . Shouldn't be newsed anybody either , right ?

Somebody has pissed off mother nature , but we're gonna see that swing . I mean , if we , if I look in the last 12 count months , I'm right now or today gonna be at a hundred and twenty degrees swing .

You know , with our low was somewhere right around minus 20 last year , mm-hmm , and you know you do , you got to kind of look at some of that and that's that's the big challenge I guess I have with the heat pump technology is that a lot of this stuff comes out and we're like , hey , you know it's , it's great , it's , it's gonna be that we're gonna put in

this . You know , let's just say it's this $11,000 system , what I'm gonna just arbitrary number and we're gonna put this thing in and it's gonna be great , and you're gonna qualify for a tax credit , and then , come winter , we're gonna shut it off when it's really cold , because it won't work , backup heat source .

But you know , eric , like you just said , you know we've been doing that for years . You know you got a propane or a natural gas . You know tankless heater there , and then you got this electric thing in the closet that turns on at night . You know , and you get a . You get a kick , a bump from the utility company or or however it is .

You know yep , and so it's not new . But I think what's new to this whole development is this concept that at some point in time Our natural gas might go away . You know , I don't know that it's Actually gonna do that , but there are . I mean . I mean you look at Colorado . I mean Denver's got a moratorium on no new natural gas ,

portland's got one , seattle's got one . I think there's not most of California's on the same boat . But you know , you go . Wow , that's , that's interesting . How do you , how do you plan to do that ?

And well , they've been using heat pumps and you know Finland for 20 years and they're just fine . Sweden for 20 years , they're just fine . I think , yeah , that's that's true . They're also . You ever met any of them that don't put on like three sweaters ?

And Afghan and like , stoke up their their cool , kick-ass little stove over in the corner with a quart of wood because they're like our heat pump doesn't keep up , it's too cold outside . Yeah , like , that's that's .

You can make that argument and , again , like I said , I'm not as smart as these people that are pushing for this , but I feel like none of my customers have you know , not none , but Nine out of ten of my customers don't have that wood stove to be like , okay , it's not keeping up . You know what I mean .

So it's all an import commodity for them , which comes at a high rate where North America we're pretty , pretty blessed to have , at the moment anyway , or according to the studies , at the moment , where we have lots of gas to go around , it's still a relative , you know , relatively inexpensive way to heat your home , heat your water and do those things you know

in the . In the same thing , on the propane industry , you know it's , it hasn't developed to that . You know 11 bucks a gallon or whatever it is in Italy . You know where they don't produce any of their own . You know oils or petroleum products .

You , you're part of our industry , but as you own homes , you live in heating climates as that's how it already established , although , tim , you , you're , there are palm trees behind you right now , right , and so , like I know , but you do live in the Midwest , so I do typically so , like , from your guys's perspective , this electrification .

I'm not gonna try to oversimplify them , definitely not trying to be political on this . This is not a motivated question , but I'm just gonna put it out there a little bit . In the more truth side of the column is Do you want your next heat bill to be roughly twice and I'm saying roughly ?

So honestly , conservative , conservatively , are you willing to accept a heat , a bill , a utility bill , no matter what company it's gonna go to or come from ? Are you , are you open to the idea that this will cost you roughly twice what it normally has cost you in the past ?

Because moving from gas natural gas especially and then going to , in the extreme conditions , going to an electric source system , your costs are gonna double . That's just the way it is . I , I can't . I'm talking about that month of the year where it is cold , and then there are parts of the year where you're not gonna see a major increase .

But there are times of the year where this , in our climate , where you're gonna have to be like yeah , I don't want gas , I'm on board with this legislation . I'm okay with one or two bills costing like twice what they used to . Is that okay ? As a homeowner like I don't know .

If the , if the Legislation is saying you have to , you know , move to an electrified heat source , then I Guess you gotta adapt and I think it , I think more people , I think it'd be interesting .

from both sides aren't swaying their opinion . Put it that way Right .

And we've had Mike Prencavige he's out in California and he's the P8CC president of I don't even know what some acronym ORSB , Orange County , Santa Barbara but

there's a pushback against selectification because of this lack of infrastructure . So it's a very multi-layered argument for and against electrification . Let me ask you guys we talk about electric trucks .

I know , Eric , you're like that's pretty cool , but I got to imagine what's the tow capacity and something like that , what's the distance you can drive , what's the feasibility of having , let's say , like an electric truck ?

No miles , brand new vehicle , super hard to find Because a handy nose trekking down from Mikkelsen plumbing the Ford Transits and I'm trying to buy a Transit too right now and I can't . There are none . And then , if you do find them , they're already spoken for , put it that way .

But the electrification of these vehicles and like EV work vehicles , Mike found out and this is I don't even know if this is a fact , but I looked into it and it seems like there's a little bit of information out there that seems that this is a true statement is that Mercedes Benz for their Sprinters and like 2024 or 2025 , the next iteration of them , are

all electric , no gas , nothing , no diesel , that's it . They're cutting her off and they're like you know what the range was going to be that . I heard over like between like 250 and 300 miles per charge , which would bring this vehicle category into 100% doable . I'd sign me up . I'll take it . I'll take it .

I don't know exactly what all's been the struggle , but they've been on the struggle bus , you know , trying to get mainstream with that and they announced a partnership with Mercedes Benz in Germany .

Wow , maybe six months ago , eight months ago , and that's the production of this is basically Mercedes Benz and Rivian said hey , we both need to like , need to in order to survive , be in the EV market in Europe in the van , cargo , van capacity .

And my understanding of the couple articles I've read about it is they basically , in a collaboration , built a manufacturing facility where they're going to build Mercedes Benz vehicles for one quarter and then they're going to build Rivian vehicles for one quarter . Same employees , same company , same building . And that's a pretty cool collaboration .

When you start looking at a couple of you know a giant like Mercedes Benz partnering with you know I guess you could still call Rivian a startup . You know they're fully involved in it . But that's interesting to hear that because I mean , eric , you and I talked about the . You know the transit , you know that'd be cool .

How cool would this be to , you know , be able to have this electric vehicle and not have stopped for gas and not have any oil changes and those kinds of things . But I think that one the transit still limited to roughly 200 miles , if I remember right , or just shy of it's short , it's under 130 .

It's not often for most companies , it just isn't for most service companies , but then you need a dual fuel , is it ? possible , absolutely 100% . That's what I said to John , like , or to Andy's point Honestly , like I just want like one of these cargo . I like the transit personally but I'm not like married to it .

But I would put this out there and I've said it before and I've put it out on social media hey Ford , if you're listening , just make it a hybrid . I'll plug it in at night , give me like 50 miles on a battery and then the rest gas . Can you imagine how much emissions we would cut down , how convenient that would be for the owner ?

And it's already a proven system that's been out for over a decade , well , over a decade . The Prius is what ? Like 20 years old or something . Now I'm sorry for our UK friends . The Prius and hashtag top gear I want a hybrid system is what I really ultimately want . But yeah , andy , you touched on it for me .

I don't know , tim , why you would want an electric vehicle , but for me it would literally be , so I don't have to go to the gas station and I don't have to go get oil changes . I know there's going to be maintenance on these things .

They still have like a differential and that still needs service , but probably once every couple of years or something crazy , and so I just want to plug this thing in . I parked my vehicle in the same spot every single day , and most people do . Can I ask you a quick ?

I drove Dylan to Bozeman the other day it's about three hours south of us Jumped in our F-250 , big diesel truck that's like 27 feet long , killed the earth , yeah , killed in the earth . And we put three more bodies in the back seat and you know everybody's luggage in the back , and we took off from town Now . So I ended up buying long box crew cab .

It has a 48 gallon tank . It holds a barrel each time you pull up at the pump , right , yeah , and it is the craziest thing for me to jump in this , and this doesn't have any application to electric , really at all .

However , if you're full and you've been driving on at highway speeds , you know , without being crazy and towing something , it pops up and says you know distance to empty , like 980 miles on a tank of fuel , and I drove from Missoula to Bozeman I don't remember what it is 100 and it's like 183 miles or something like that .

From Missoula to Bozeman was still above three quarters of a tank of fuel and at 730 miles remaining on it on the tank and I'm just like this is insane . I mean like I've never in my life owned a gas vehicle . My wife's tall hose , nowhere near my daughter's little trailblazer , gets better , better mileage , but it doesn't have 450 horsepower .

It's pretty wild that this thing gets 18 . I mean , driving down the interstate , cruise control set at 83 is 18.2 miles , but my guess is it costs you a mortgage every time you fill it up . Yeah , it did at one point , you know . I mean now I just I try not trying , you know not to rip the bandaid off all the way it's .

Usually I fill it up at half the tank , you know it's still .

I think here and I remember not paying attention drove the truck for a couple of days into town doing some stuff , getting you know lumber or whatever , and I'm like , oh , I need to stop and get fuel . I'm just about out and I pull into the gas station and throw the nozzle in and I'm like , oh , geez , you know hit 175 . I'm like , oh , put it back in .

You know , run the card again . I just got . I got I don't remember I think my total was like 270 or something like that for a tank of fuel . I'm just like $300 to fill up the truck .

Andy is there , I am there , linked directly in your podcast app . And if you haven't already , man , I tell you , if they haven't done this already , andy , what do they get a prize if they go and give us a five star review ? Yeah , yeah , they get an ad-boy , ad-boy .

I'm trying to get Tim to do an Axl Rose song as we go out of each podcast , but You've heard me saying it's not pretty .