Making History in Hollywood, with Debra Martin Chase

who found success their own way. Consider this your real world n b A designed for the new Now. I'm Kim Azzarelli and thanks so much for joining us today. Most career paths aren't a straight and narrow line, and that's a good thing. Da Brow. Martin Chase graduated from Harvard Law School in the early eighties and practiced law

for the better part of the decade. Her love for films and an interesting career opportunity led her to the entertainment industry, where she would become the icon who brought us fan favorite films like The Princess Diaries, The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, and The Cheetah Girls. Most recently, her company, Martin Chase Productions produced Harriet, the critically acclaimed film based on the life of the underground railroad freedom

fighter Harriet Tubman. Debra is the first black woman to produce a film that grossed over a hundred million dollars, and to date her films have grossed over half a billion dollars at the box office. In this episode of Made by Women, Seneca Women's Sharon Boone interviews her longtime

friend Deborah Martin Chase. Here how Debora got her start, the ways she updated her business approach to stay current through changing times, and how she worked her way to the top of an industry notoriously tough on women, especially black women. Enjoy their conversation, Debora, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Made by Women. Happy to be here, Sharon, So Deborah for our listeners. How did a Harvard Law school graduate end up working in motion

pictures and television? I have always loved film and television. My dad was the biggest film and television buff that I ever knew, and so I grew up in a household where we talked about movies at the dinner table. And you know, I was that kid that sat in the movie theater all Saturday afternoon and watched up over and over again. And you know, I also realized how important the images that I saw on screen were to

my p O V on the world. And then the themes even though you're you know, you are realizing and at the time, you know, had the messages and the themes had a huge impact on my development as a person. So it was always the dream. I didn't know anybody in the entertainment business. I had no idea how to get into it. So I went to law school and I practiced for a few years and constantly talked about

getting into the entertainment business. And finally just reached that point in my life where you know, I was a really good lawyer, but I didn't love it. And I was like, if not, if I don't try to get into the entertainment business now, then when would I ever do it? So I jumped off the cliff. So dere we then, what was your first job in the in the industry? You did you follow in love with it right away or did it take you some time to to find your place? You know, Listen, Like I said,

it was like a dream come true. So I actually, while I was still practicing law, I spent a year learning about the business and I knew that I wanted to come up with the ideas for movies and television, and that was either a producer or you know, kind of inside the the system, it was a studio executive

for two years. Columbia Pictures had an executive development program that was started by the then chairman, Victor Kaufman that was designed to bring people into the industry from different disciplines. But you know, I came in as an experienced lawyer, So I ended up spending the first year in the legal department because they had like an experience lawyer who was willing to work her butt off and they didn't

have to pay me. And then my my and my big break was I sat next to the new chairman, Frank Price, at a program luncheon and we hit it off, and about two months later he brought me up to be his executive assistant and that I went with him to all of his meetings. I read scripts for him. We would sit in the evening in his office and I got to ask any questions that I wanted to about the decisions he had made throughout the day. He really just wanted me to learn um and so yeah,

I was pinching myself. It was like I worked super hard. I made no money in Retrospect. I look at it as my graduate school, but I was your training in the thick of it. Yes, exactly, exactly from the hands of you know, Frank in Retrospect was one of the last of the old fashioned studio bosses, so learning right from him. So that's amazing. So that was that internship gave you a foot in the door, which I'm sure hopefully that happens for people today to to get that

foot in the doors. It's hard. It's really hard. It's really it's gotten harder because just the business has become more corporate. There's a group of us that are really trying to make a difference. So so look that experience. Why did you decide to start your own production and company? What was the sport that really drove you to do that? You know, it just became inevitable thing. It wasn't so

much that I planned it. After working with Frank for six months, I was a studio executive at Columbia Pictures, and then I went to run Denzel Washington's production company for four years, and then I partnered with Whitney Houston and we started a company at Disney and that was for five years. And when that company kind of came apart, you know, I started and it was I had Princess Diaries was in the can, but it had not come out yet, and in my gut, I felt that the

movie was going to be something special. But I started going on interviews and and basically, you know, I was interviewing with prominent white male producers who had companies to like, come in and you know, probably be their number two person, and I just said, I don't, this is not what I want to do. Yes, So being number two didn't That wasn't a good concept for you. It's not the number two so much. It's that I didn't want to work to realize their visions, you know, the movies that

they wanted to make. I had realized, or I had come into my own creative voice and vision, and I realized that if I was gonna, you know, do anything, it was time for me to to explore that. And plus, there weren't any black women making movies. So I just

kind of fell into it. And what really happened is I just decided again I kind of banked on Princess Diaries being something, and so I was, you know, out of work for a few months, and I just said, you know, I'm gonna wait until the movie comes out, because if it is a success, it put it would

put me in that next league up. Thankfully it was, and I ended up, like the second week it was out, the head of the student at the time, you know, Jacobson at Disney called me and gave me my own deal, which we didn't realize at the time, but maybe the first black woman producer to have a deal at a

major studio, which is Bathless. Now, were there any tough moments sort of along that path, you know, that made you sweat or wonder whether it was gonna happen at all, or you're just confident that it was just gonna all

work out. Strictly doing that that the period a few months before the movie came out, and when you know, our company ceased to be I remember, I would sit out on my patio here in Los Angeles at night, would not in my stomach and I would just say to myself, Okay, I just don't believe that I have come this far to fail. I mean, really, it was an act of faith at that point. Not to just take a job, but to to to kind of, you know, bet on myself that something would happen with the movie

and for me. Where do you think that strength came from? What made Juice so strong when you face those those obstacles at the time, You know, it boils down to faith, faith in yourself and just kind of you know, faith in the universe. Like I said, I just kept saying, I can't believe that the universe would bring me this far. And I know I knew that I had put in the time and the energy and the hard work and

the passion. You know that I just didn't think that all of that would be for not that I would be rewarded for for everything, but you know it was I bet on myself, which is I encourage people to do because at the end of the day, you know, you have to. Yeah, that's great advice for particularly for the women entrepreneurs who are listening to us today, and it's clearly paid off. You know, among your work, you've produced some some of the most beloved franchises. You know,

we mentioned the Princess stories. You know, the Sister had the t on Pants, one of my favorites. The Cheetah girls. How did you land such big films? I mean, did you think that you could ever be so successful? When I was in really starting things up, I didn't allow myself to really focus on the inequities in the marketplace.

You know, the fact that as a black woman, you know, basically I started out having to prove to the industry that somebody who looked like me was capable of producing mainstream movies, where my white male counterparts we're just like, okay, I'm here, like, you know, how am I gonna How am I gonna make a lot of money? But I just kept my eyes were on the prize, and I think it did help that this was a second career

for me. So I had the knowledge that, you know, look if push came the shop and I failed fabulously, you know, and and was flat on my face, that I could always you know, hang a shingle out as a lawyer and you know, put a roof over my head. But you know we were going to let you do that. So listen, how many times did I sleep on your

u in that that bedroom? I know, I know, I know, But when I looked around the industry, you know, at that time, Basically, if you were a black producer, you were only making black product, whereas every you know, white producers, male, female, Hispanic producers were making black product as well. So I went to the agencies. At the time, I was with the William Morris agency, but I went to all of them and I said, look, you need to send me

the stuff that you send the white producers. Don't just send me the stuff that you think I should be doing. Let me make that decision. I had produced Rogerson, Hammer, Stunts, Darrella, and the unpublished manuscript for The Princess Diaries came to William Morris. It had been turned down by I don't know fifteen publishers, but the agent called me. He said, well, you just did Cinderella. I thought that this might be

up your alley. And I read the book that night and I was like, oh, I get this, and you know, sold it to Disney. And then that, you know, success helps you get more success in the sense that you know, all of a sudden, I was on the map as

an established producer. Actually, the sister of the Traveling Parents was one of the few things like Kevin McCormick, who was a senior executive at Warner Brothers actually called me after Princess Diaries and the book had been out and was a success, and he said, you know, again, I thought this might be something you'd be interested in. Read it, immediately loved it. You know, knew it had a huge

fan base, and you know, made those movies. We know that those great ideas always need funding to really become a reality. And you know, personally, I've always been appalled by the lack of access to capital for women own businesses, with such a small percentage lists and five percent of funds for your capital going to women o businesses, and a small percentage of bank loans. You know, yet you know,

women control like a large percentage of purchasing power. I'm sure that the film industry is not immune from this either. So how did you tackle sort of this mismatch with a great idea? But do you have problems getting funding? You know, of the stuff I've done has been financed by the major movie studios or television slash cable networks. I just I've been you know, I'm saying based in Disney for fifteen years. You know, I've just been in that pool. But that being said, there's a long stretch

in there. Know, it probably ended maybe five years ago, where the studios and the network nobody was interested in stories about people of color, nobody were interested in stories about women. And while I have done other things, that is clearly my bread and butter, my my passion is you know, telling those stories and shattering stereotypes and and

projecting you know, complex interesting images for both groups. And I found myself kind of throwing stuff up against the wall, you know, because the people weren't interested in what I was really interested in. I couldn't get the stuff I wanted to do. Finance and the other stuff just wasn't meaning anything to me. It was a little tough period, but the journey was a good journey. You know, Listen,

I've learned. Someday, I said, I'm going to write a book about what I've learned about life from from Hollywood, because you know, I've learned about faith. I've learned, know, We've been reinforced that you've got to you know, believe in yourself, as I said earlier, and it's also particularly It's always been true, but particularly in these times where the world and culture and politics is changing so rapidly, you have to stay nimble and you have to stay open.

But you know, for a producer in Hollywood to have a home for fifteen years at a major studio, and I'm very grateful, but I realized that I had gotten stale. That I you know, I was doing business in the same way that I've been doing it for fifteen years at the same company, in the same way, and everything had changed. I had changed the business and changed, the

world had changed, the company has changed. You know, I think your tendency when you've had some success, it's just to drill down on how you've been doing things, because you figure you just it's just another wall, when in fact, this was a sea change, and so thankful I took a step back. I diminished my overhead for for nine months and just kind of opened myself back up to new ideas and new ways of thinking about product and

the business. And it really it was like the perfect thing because it just positioned me to reboot, relaunch myself and my business. So, you know, given today's conditions and you're you're describing that you you made a pivot at that time, and looking at the the world today, a lot of companies have had to pivot their business models and their operations due to the pandemic um has has your business been reshaped? Have you had to pivot again during this time? No, thank you. I am so grateful.

I that pivot put me in position to being really good through this pandemic. And I said this at the outset, it's you know, there there were businesses that had old business models at the start of this that we're just hanging on. And so the pressure from the shutdown and and everything you know that we're going through took them out right. Because what I've learned is you have to change. You have to stay abreast of what's going on and

stay you know, relevant. It's like you have to keep your business model current because you never know what's gonna happen. And I think unfortunately, we've seen a lot of businesses that that may not come back and sort of you know, in that vein for for that entrepreneur who missed it the first go around and needs to pivot to survive going forward. Is there one piece of advice that was critical to your success that you could tell our listeners

about to day. I know you mentioned being nimble and being current, Nimble, current and open, and as I said, I think open is really important in the sense that it's human nature to keep doing things, particularly again if you if you've had some success, to continue to do things in the same way, because there's a comfort level

that obviously sets in. But you have to be willing to look at things from other points of view and other perspectives and question your assumptions periodically so that because things are changing so rapidly, the technology is changing so rapidly, our culture is changing so rapidly. I was listening last night.

Obviously the state of Mississippi just got rid of the Confederate flag, you know, as part of its flag, and they were saying that in a poll a year ago, over fifty of Mississippians did not want to change the flag. Here we are a year later, and over fifty wanted to change the flag. So so what, you know, it's been a year. You gotta stay on top. Things are changing all the time, and that's going to impact your

business and how people respond to you. I think about the power of the movie you've done, and you know, starting not to think about Harriet in this moment in time, and you know, I was sort of thinking to myself, you know, your story is always reshaped. Sort of the images and some of the misperceptions that you know, many of us are sort of grappling with. Right now, what

would Harriet do today? The thing about Harriet's life that is so inspirational is putting it mildy, but also I think so relevant for right now is that she was born a slave and destined to be a slave her entire life. But she said no, and she decided that she was going to change the course of her life, her family's life, many other black people's lives, and in doing all that helped changed the course of our nation.

Look at what has come out of the protests. You know that people said enough, we're not taking this anymore. You know, we all have the ability, we have a voice, and whether we use it individually in you know, in our homes or in our churches, our schools, or whether we're using it in the streets to peacefully peacefully protests, and we got to use it at the ballot box. But I think you know, carry it stands for standing up for your right, standing up for what you believe in,

standing up for you know, your freedoms. They mentioned at the very beginning of our interview that you know, we've known each other for many, many, many years, and and how many amazing friends we have in common. Can you tell me how it's important? Have you know those networks spent to you? And what and what advice would you give like the young person as to how do you how would someone build a network? My female friendships like you, my dear female friends, have been invaluable to me. I

went to Mount Holio and Wellesley me. I'm a I'm a women's college graduate. I believe in the power of women and and friendships and our collective power. Particularly you know, when I came to Hollywood and I was alone in many ways, you know, the path, the road not traveled I was taking, and particularly at that time because there were so few opportunities for black people and for women

in general, there was that kind of cutthroat mentality. So you're all, you know, I was having to look over your show there, and so I just having this amazing network of friends in like you and New York and d C Chicago really kept me, you know, just connected and grounded. And we you know, Sharon, we would go out to dinner with you know, a little group of us.

I remember, you know, we go to dinner and we talked about what we were each going through in our own realms and we would recognize the you know the similarities of the challenges and just you know, show each other up emotionally and nothing else much less you know, with information and you know, helping each other practically where we could, But the emotional support was key. Yeah, it's been keeping having you in my life and you've been a huge supporter and you know, I love you, Jearlie

in any event, but it just reminded me. I was on a call with young Black women partners at the majority firms and young Black women general accounts so in and some of them talked about, particularly now, the sort of the isolation still being the only one and grappling with how you even have conversations, you know, and this with the civil unrest, and I encourage them to reach out to each other and to make sure we continue

to use our network to support each other. I mean, it's just so important to be able to pick up the phone and ask that girlfriend, like, you know, this happened to me? Am I crazy? Or did this happen to you too? Absolutely, they're common things that we go through and so just being able to first of all, be able to talk about it and not hold it inside, you know, just starts the process of resolving it or

figuring out how you're going to handle it. But then also just to be able to share experiences is critical. It is critical. So in that vein that was so with the young I'm not entrepreneurs listening to us right now, who is thinking about, you know, writing her own script and her own future and looking for those tools and resources that they made need to achieve their dreams. Now, what would be that one big piece of advice that

you would give that person? I think for one of it is figure out what you really want to do, you know, what really means something to you, Because whatever you choose to do, you're gonna have to work really hard at it. You know, we all know, we all listen to our mothers and our our our grandparents, and we know that it's still if you're black, you know, and as women, you gotta work twice as hard in order to get you know, half half. That's just that's

still the reality. So if you're going to put that kind of time, effort, dedication, passion, commitment into something, make sure it's something that is meaningful to you, that you really care about and that you really think that you can make a contribution through. I guess it's like the other side of that is, don't be afraid to go for what you want, right, I mean, you know their boxes and and it's really it's it's kind of easy to go into a box, but create the life that

you want to live. For that person who is afraid and who's afraid to try because they they're afraid they may fail, what do you say to that person? I mean, I can only tell you from my own experience. When I, you know, jumped off the cliff for entertainment, I said, I just I didn't want to wake up, you know now at this age and just be filled with what a cold and shoulda if only if nothing ventured, nothing game. If you don't try, you'll never know what do you

have to lose? You don't just jump out there willie nilly, but make taking calculated risks is part of success. From some of my failures, I've learned an enormous amount. So that's part of the journey. It's up and down. You know, not everything is success, but those those failures and what you learn from them and learning just how to pick yourself back up and keep going because that makes you less afraid going forward. It's all part of success. That's great.

So what's next, brah So when when the pandemic hit, I was on the eve of shooting two network TV pilots and the you know, very small silver lining in this whole pandemic is that one of the pilots for CBS got a straight two series order. And that's a I'm so excited about it. It's a congratulations, thank you very much. You know, we we again realized after the fact, I'm probably the first or second non writing, non directing,

executive producer and network black female in network television. So it's a reboot of the nineteen eighties television series The Equalizer starring queenland Tifa, who's a dear friend. And this is so we're so excited about it. Chris Noth from Mr Big from Sex in the City is also in it. Lorraine Tussa, but it's you know, if there were ever a time for a show about a strong black woman who helps those people whom the system has let down to find justice and find hope, you know, it could

be a better time than that. That's huge. It's huge. It's a big deal. My other pilot was for NBC. It's a black succession set in Harlem that I'm doing. Um, Malcolm Lee, you know who directed Girls Trip and Best Man Movies. He's my uh producing partner. He and he'll direct the pilot and this fabulous black woman writer Carla Waddles wrote the script. So we're excited about that too. So it's you know, so I'm excited about what's on the horizon when we get out of COVID life. Yeah,

that is that is so fantastic. De you know, congratulations. I really want to thank you so much for sharing your story and for joining the show. You know how much this means to me personally, and it's just so so grateful to to have you in my life, and thank you for joining us today for Made by Women. I want to thank Sharon for leading such a great conversation and Deborah Martin Chase for sharing her incredible story with us. What an inspiration to women in the entertainment

industry and to women everywhere. So a few takeaways from this conversation really had an impact on me. First, we're not bound to one career path, and Deborah is proof of this. As a law school graduate from a prestigious university, she could have easily stayed on one path for her entire career, but Debora refocused on her love for film and had a strong sense of purpose and wanted to pursue a career she was passionate about. Deborah was open

to all the amazing opportunities that then came her way. Second, a secret to deborah success has been her ability to keep her business model current in the ever changing work world. As Deborah shares quote, you have to change, you have to stay abreast of what's going on, and you have to stay relevant. Lastly, a strong network of trusted friends

is key for any successful business. As Debora and share and share years of talking to each other through career challenges, shared experiences and lessons learned has provided each of them with the emotional support and trusted perspective they needed to succeed. Thanks so much for joining us, See you next week. Made by Women is brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PNG