825: 2025 State of the Platforms (Part 1)

Hello, welcome to the MechPower Users. I'm David Sparks and joined as always by your friend of mine, Mr. Stephen Hackett. Hello, Stephen. Hello, David. How are you? I am doing good, but I'm still adjusting to this idea that we do a video as part of the Mac Power Users. I showed up today unshaved. My hair is a little messy. I think I got to work on.

the visual presentation bit of this, but there you go. Yeah. So if you're, if you haven't seen or heard the news, we are doing a video version of the show. It is. completely secondary to the audio version. We're making an audio podcast that happens to have a video component. I minimize the video. I can't even see David, which is how I prefer it. That came out wrong. Yeah.

I love you and I love your face. But when we're doing a show, it's easier just to talk over the phone. But you can go over to the Mac Power users YouTube channel. We're still going to update the audio there. That's automatic. And so if you're using YouTube music, listen to podcasts, it's all there. But we're doing this video version to kind of see how it goes.

You can check that out. But don't worry, we're not turning into a video show. If you listen to the show, that is still how we think about the podcast. But we're adding this for people who want it. And there are definitely people who want it and who have asked for it. So we're giving it a try.

As they say, I have a face for radio. So there you go. Yeah. But it's a thing. And a lot of podcasts are there and we felt like we should be there as well. Mac power users is an old dog that still learns new tricks. So go check it out if you're interested. Kind of fun if you're at work and you just want to see us while we do the show. Yeah. Yeah. And me with messy hair and unshaven. There you go. Also unshaven. Yeah. Yeah. And if you have feedback or, you know.

comments, let us know. The best way to do that is the feedback form. There's a link in the show notes that goes to both of us and the relay CMS. So yeah, if you have comments, let us know. All right. A little housekeeping today. Um, it is the holiday season. It's time to give the gift of relay. Yeah, absolutely. So we're running this through the end of the year. It's 20% off any annual membership plans across the network, but here on Mac power users.

We do what's called More Power Users, the ad-free, longer version of the show. We do it each and every week. We do an extra segment at the end. Last week, for instance, we spoke kind of more in depth about the video. what we're doing, how we're doing it, those sorts of things. And sometimes it's an extra topic. Sometimes it's just something we're working on behind the scenes. But I think it's great. I really enjoy doing more power users. And so you can...

Get it for yourself or get it for somebody as a gift. GiveRelay.com is where you want to go. Yeah, and today on More Power Users. Steven will be talking about possible 512 pixels changes in the next year, which sounds ominous to me. It's not bad news. I'm just, you know, thinking about some stuff and I wanted to bounce it off you. All right, let's do it.

It is, though, the end of the year. Every year at the end of the year, we do what we call the state of the platforms shows, where we break down the existing Apple platforms, hardware and software, where they're at, where we think they're going. and what our general thoughts are about it. This is one of my favorite series that we do every year. We kind of did the iPad state of the platform recently as part of our iPad coverage, but we've still got a lot of platforms to cover.

And today we get to get started. And because we're the Mac power users, of course, we're going to start with the Mac. That's absolutely right. Where else would we start? And we're going to do hardware and software.

a little bit separately on the Mac because there's so many things to contend with. But I kind of wanted to start this. I'm going to start with the hardware. Just a quick update on what you and I are using as our daily Macs.

Yeah, I'll go first. I have an M2 Mac Studio. It's an M2 Mac Studio. It's got 32 gigabytes of RAM. It's got a whopping eight terabyte hard drive, which... i i hated to pay for but i love to own and um uh it's been it's been a real trooper this year i i flirted with the idea of updating to an m4 macbook pro and selling the studio but Ultimately, I kept my studio. I really do enjoy having a computer with all this IO in it and just being at my desk ready to go at any time. Yeah.

That's my main Mac. I also have an M4 MacBook Air that I got, just kind of my mobile Mac. It's also the machine that I always run the beta software on, kind of a test bed. But also sometimes when I want to work away from my desk, I'll bring it with me. But the real production work all gets done on my M2 studio. Yeah, that's great. I remember when you were talking about buying that machine.

Part of it was the longevity and the flexibility of the studio. And I'm glad it's still going well. My Mac is a 14-inch M4 Max MacBook Pro. Basically completely spec'd out, except I think I've got 64 gigabytes of RAM. I think I could have gone higher. And it's in a dock hooked up to a studio display. With a CalDigit Thunderbolt 4 dock. It's where all the IO goes. And it's been fantastic. I'm now several years into the laptop as your main machine. And I've been really happy with it.

I do also have a, it's now an M3 MacBook Air. I had an M1, again, is like my beta kind of machine. But I had a family member who needed a laptop and they weren't really in a position to buy something. And so I gave them my M1 MacBook Air. And I got a refurbished just base M3 Air. So, you know, during the summer, that's what will get the new versions of Mac OS. It's what I do my screenshots on for, you know, the 512 image library.

I've been really happy with the MacBook Pro. I've had a couple of 14-inch ones now. It is definitely the size for me because, again, most of the time I'm using it with a big display, but it's not so big that I can't.

easily take it to the coffee shop and get some work done, which I do a fair bit of these days. So I'm super happy with it. And I think that really segues nicely into the fact that we are now five years. into Apple Silicon. As we're recording this, we just passed five years since the first M1s were shown off and started shipping. And I think we've made this turn now. I wrote this piece called Boring is What We Wanted.

And it was really a column about, hey, you know, we wanted Apple to be in a place where they could update the Mac on a regular basis. And over time that those changes would add up to something meaningful. And it's exactly where we are, you know. You don't need to go from an M3 to an M4, but if you go from an M2 to an M5 or an M6, you're going to see substantial changes. But more important to me is most Macs get... regularly updated and that wasn't always the case in the intel days and

I think that's fantastic. And the reason I titled it boring is what we wanted because you see feedback of like, oh, it's just a spec bump. It's like, no, dude, that's what we want. Like we want Apple just continually to make these products better.

Not everything is going to be the jump from Intel to M1, right? That's a once in a generation thing. And people forget that. The same thing happened. You and I were both around. The same thing happened a few years into the Intel Mac lineup. They're like, oh. They're just spec bumps. And it's like, well, yeah, you're not going to see, you know, G4 to Intel Core Duo jumps every time. But I think Apple Silicon's in a really good place.

Yeah, that post you wrote really took off. Darian Fireball linked it. And I just saw Snazzy Labs made a video that is largely making the same argument. So, yeah, it's good. And that's true. boring is what we want we want regular updates to the hardware not like you said everybody doesn't need to update every year it's just i feel like the mac hardware

is in a really good spot. And it's particularly an interesting swing because we were all kind of feeling bad about the Mac for several years leading up to this. I mean... The Intel stuff was updating super slow, like two years to get a 5% increase. And they had those bad keyboards. And it seemed like every episode of Mac Power users started with the guests complaining about their Mac. And the hardware is doing so good now.

You know, one of the big complaints we had when we did the show last year was the base RAM. And, you know, we come to 2025 and Apple fixed that. Yeah, for a lot of people, it's a really meaningful update because a lot of people just go in and buy the base machine, right? And 8 gigs was questionable for a long time.

I think Apple kind of held onto that a little too long, to be honest. But with the inclusion of Apple intelligence, these devices need more RAM. And so that's been a benefit of Apple intelligence. like in the hardware which is kind of interesting and really it means unless you go buy that super cheap m1 macbook air from from walmart for most users right for

people in offices, students, home users. I don't necessarily think you really have to upgrade the RAM past 16. Some of us do, right? Some of our workflows do need more, but you know if you're that person. And what I really appreciate about this update is, okay, like you're going to pick a machine for somebody, pick the model. The RAM's probably good. It really simplifies things down, I think, to how much storage do you need.

It makes the buying process, like the decision process simpler for people. And so I love that they've done that. Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you, that was my mistake with this machine is not an FRAM. Yeah. At the time, I wasn't aware that local AI was going to become a thing and whatever. I'm getting constant out of memory.

warnings with my computer at 32 gigs, but I run a lot of software. But I think you're right. For most entry-level people, 16 is just fine. Eight was not enough, and I'm glad that they fixed that.

It kind of leads to a related question that I have for you, though. One of the big things about Apple Silicon is everything's on one chip, which in a lot of ways is good, in a few ways is bad. With the unified memory, with the chip containing the storage, you can't do internal upgrades anymore. And a lot of times you just have to buy packages of stuff together, right?

You're going to get this many, you know, graphic chips, this many core chips. You're going to get this much RAM. You get this much storage and you don't really have a lot of say about it. There's some, but not a lot. So now we're five years into that. What do you think about that? You know, the fact that this unified memory system now exists, that the loss of freedom over it, the convenience of having it all on one die.

Do you have deep thoughts at this point? I mean, I think that the reality is that for basically every Mac, this has been the case for a while, right? Like on the Intel MacBook Pros, right? RAM had been soldered on for... quite a while for the macbook air it was always true and so for for most mac models it's actually not a change it is a change on the desktop so we're going to talk about about some of those in detail in a second

But in reality, most people weren't upgrading the RAM in their machines. And even as someone who owned a 2019 Mac Pro and spent way too much money and time tinkering inside of it, including RAM updates. You know, even with that in my not that recent past, I get it. And I think it's mostly fine. You know, sure, if you're buying a Mac Pro and maybe you need it down the road.

But that machine seems to be on the way out anyways. So I understand the complaints, but I think in the real world for most people, it's basically fine. Yeah. The only caveat I'd say is... be careful when you buy because you don't have a lot to do you can do afterwards you can always add external storage that is just getting better with the uh with the latest thunderbolt port but

In terms of memory and processing speed and all that, you really need to be careful when you make your purchase decision because you're not going to be able to back out of that or add on to it. Yeah. Yeah, and again, if you are the kind of person who's going to need more than 16 gigs, you probably already know it. But then there are some times that needs may change. Like you said, you're hitting up against it.

Local AI wasn't much of a thing three or four years ago when you got that machine. Now it is. There's always going to be edge cases, but I think Apple's aiming for the middle. Other question about... hardware in general this is the year that thunderbolt 5 arrived how's apple doing with thunderbolt 5 support i mean i think the the big thing that comes to mind for me is what can they do in the monitor space

with thunderbolt five i mean that we're really at a point where the again for for most almost everybody the bandwidth is incredible right like even with thunderbolt four i'm not doing anything that saturates it i don't think um and i've got you know ssds plugged right in but they're usbc ssds they're not full thunderbolt so at the high end yes people always want to go faster but for me i hope i hope

either Thunderbolt five or whatever comes next unlocks things like high refresh rate, external displays, higher density, external displays, but we'll see. Yeah. And what we have right now is super fast storage. So if you're doing video production or something that requires you to move a lot of data off and on your device.

and you want to spend the money on a thunderbolt 5 and you've got a recent mac with thunderbolt 5 support you're gonna really be a screamer okay let's get into the specific platforms themselves uh laptops um

We've got two really platforms right now in laptops. We've got MacBook Air and MacBook Pro. I think Apple's done a really good job. And this isn't just 2025, but in general. distinguishing those two products like the macbook air right it's just thunderbolt usbc if you need more ports the macbook pro is there for you they both have two sizes now the 15 inch macbook air came along a couple of years ago

And so I think Apple's in a good place with those. You know, we're way past the days where it was kind of confusing because the MacBook Air wasn't good. The one-port MacBook was around. You had the weird no-touch bar MacBook Pro. All that's in the past now. I think Apple's done a good job at really simplifying the laptop lineup in terms of your way in.

And I think both machines serve their respective audiences really well. The MacBook Air is thin and light with a pretty good screen and, you know, good keyboard, good build. That's what the masses want and need. But then you have the MacBook Pro, right, with an amazing display, much higher core counts on CPU and GPU. It has its additional ports, like I said.

And so I think I'm really happy with where both lineups are. I mean, I've got one of each, right? I have my MacBook Pro and my MacBook Air as my test machine. And they're really different from each other. And I think that's actually a good thing. Yeah, I really think when you look at Apple Silicon, I mean, the whole line has benefited, but the amount of benefit is relative to where the hardware is on the line. So I think the lower you are in the line.

the more you benefit from the Apple Silicon. And the MacBook Air is the best example of this. I mean, as soon as M1 arrived, the M1 MacBook Air was comparable to an Intel MacBook Pro. Yeah. You know, it's crazy how much better the MacBook Air got with Apple Silicon. And that just continues to be true. If you look at comparison numbers of an M1.

macbook air versus like an i'm sorry an m4 macbook air and we're going to get the m5 like in months but if you look at the m4 macbook air compare that to like an m1 ultra you know It's comparable. I mean, I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but just in four generations, the low end is keeping up with the old high end, very high end. Yeah.

I think particularly in single core performance, which a lot of software is just going to use one core still, it's really remarkable where they've come. My wife had that last Intel MacBook Air, the Retina with the bad keyboard. And that machine wasn't good. Like it ran hot. The fan was on all the time. This was during COVID. She was teaching remotely. on, I guess, Microsoft Teams. And it was just not a good computer. I mean, I really jumped on that M1 Air for her.

And it was an immediate, immediate upgrade for her. And that's really been the case. The best Mac got better, right? Or the most popular Mac got better. And then those of us who need more, we're getting so much more than we ever did before. I really have to think Apple is very happy and proud of Apple Silicon, but especially in the laptop line. Yeah.

And I think because of that gain at the low end, the MacBook Air is the right choice for the vast majority of people looking by a laptop. It's just, I mean. People used to say, well, I need to edit 4K video. I'm like, I edit 4K video on my MacBook Air. It's not that hard. It's just, you know, there's just not.

you know, you really need a reason to step up. And I know a lot of people in our audience, ourselves included, we just want to have the latest and greatest. I think there's something to that too. I mean, we're enthusiasts about this stuff. We want to push it as hard as we can, but.

You know, if we're all being honest with here and our spouses aren't in the room, the MacBook Air is actually pretty, pretty good. And I think it's going to be... the solution and it makes it really easy to recommend now that they've updated the ram when a friend says hey i know you know about this stuff i need a new computer i say go pick a macbook air get the color you like

just make sure you get enough storage you know that's the one thing that's the other penny to drop still is the low-end storage probably isn't enough for most people you just look at their library and see how much storage you're using and tell them to get enough storage um but yeah it's just so easy now

And now there's rumors of a new, really low-end entry-level MacBook. I mentioned a second ago, the M1 MacBook Air is still for sale through Walmart. I saw something in my RSS reader for Black Friday. which is the past when this comes out, like $549. I mean, it's so cheap. Apple's doing that, I think, as an experiment to see what that...

What that could do to expand the Mac's footprint sort of in that more entry-level realm. Rumors are that the M1 will be replaced with some sort of laptop running. an A18 chip. So that's the iPhone chip from last year. And I think it makes a lot of sense. I don't think continuing to make the M1, like continuing to actually fabricate the M1 makes sense forever.

And a lot of people have hung a lot of hopes on this laptop. Like, oh, it'll be plastic or it'll be colorful. And on upgrade, Jason Snell was like, I think it's probably just the M1 chassis. with an a18 and it's like probably so because that's the way to keep the price down but yeah they're not going to spend money on a new design i don't know no but but having an a18 or a18 pro in a laptop like it's i think it's really

And if they can keep that price as low as possible, it'll continue to be good to have that sort of entry-level machine. Now, they don't sell that machine in Apple stores, right? It's Walmart. I think you can get an M1 at Best Buy still. It's other channels. But it's reaching customers that maybe wouldn't have considered a Mac before. And that's an important thing. Yeah. I think it's only good if Apple makes a $600 or $700 laptop.

This is something that's only possible because of the Apple Silicon, you know, the good thermals, the low power. The cheap cost, because there's no middleman. Apple's not buying the chip from somebody else. They're manufacturing it themselves. And there's a whole bunch of reasons why they can profitably make one of those.

I think the rumor's true, and I think next year at this time, there's going to be a new option on the table when we do this show. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I mean, I've even thought about it. My daughter is a sophomore in high school. So in a couple of years, I'm going to be buying her college computer. Right now, she's using an M1 MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, which is a weird machine. It's like the only one that Apple Silicon and Touch Bar.

But it is it's trucking along. But, you know, when I think about. What's next for her is like, oh man, like a MacBook Air or maybe even this thing. Maybe whatever this low-cost machine is could be a good fit. So I'm very interested to track this story over the next year. Yeah. Another computer that they've made in the past, but they don't do anymore is remember the, with the gray called the adorable adorable, the ultra light. So this is not a budget conscious machine, but it's just ultra light.

Super powerful. And the idea is kind of like the old 11-inch MacBook Air. It's something that people can have as an ultralight. If you're a road warrior, you want a Mac that... that's more powerful or just as powerful as the macbook air but even lighter yeah do you think there's space in line for that at this point I think there is if they get the pricing right. I referenced a second ago. For years, if you had like $1,200, you basically had three computers to choose from from Apple.

And I think that was the wrong approach. I think if you do an ultralight, I think you've got to price it as a premium machine, as an alternative to the MacBook Pro, not the MacBook Air.

kind of like the iphone air right yeah yeah so we'll see i think there's room for it i think people i mean we had people when they canceled this like come out of the woodwork saying they loved it like our friend underscore David Smith had a had a string of them and he'd like put them in a coat pocket at WWDC it was it was wild right and a lot of people really want the smallest Mac laptop they can get but

I think if it comes at the cost of confusing the low end of the line, I think it's not worth it. So I'd like to see it, but with those caveats. I want to see it just because of the existence of Apple Silicon. I feel like... you know, the limiting factor of these things was always Intel and cooling and like, you know, it just, they didn't have the right chips to make that computer the first time. And I would love to see them.

make one in the age of apple silicon just to see what it looks like and i hope they do but i don't think i'd want one but i think it's cool yeah that may be the problem just kind of the iphone air problem it's like yeah it's a cool computer Not enough people wanted to justify the expense of making it. Sure. Okay, a couple things on laptops I want to kind of ask, especially you having the big one.

What's the state of the thermals? I haven't spent time with a MacBook Pro. How hot's it getting? How loud is it at this point? Yeah, I mean, so I've got the M4 Max, right? So it's the high-end system on a chip. It is in everyday use, even in clamshell mode, which is how I'm using it these days. It's silent. I don't hear it. Now, if I push it right, if I'm transcribing.

audio or i'm doing a build in xcode yeah i'll hear the fans but in everyday use including with chrome and a bunch of electron apps and all that junk uh it's silent and i've been super impressed by that because i had an m2 pro and i was a little worried going to the max like oh am i gonna trade off heat and noise but i did it anyways and i've been very happy with it

I think they've got a lot of headroom in there. We're seeing on the phones in particular, we're going to talk about the iPhone next week, the Pro has that vapor chamber cooling. They've really struggled, I think, to get the iPhone thermals under control. That is not the case in laptops. And even my M3 Air or my wife's new M4 Air, it'll get warm like when indexing photos or installing an update or something, but it's never hot. And of course, those don't have fans.

and so i think i think it's way improved and i think that's what makes the ultralight potentially possible again because that m1 or that that the one port macbook to make it fanless they had to go with such a wimpy processor from intel it was just way too slow and now it's like well you don't have that trade-off anymore it kind of changes the game so um yeah i i have zero complaints about the thermals

at all and what about the ports you are you happy with your io i am it's surprising how often the hdmi port comes in handy you know if just like putting slides up somewhere or Something like that. When I got my first USB-C machine, I changed out a lot of cables that I had on my desk or just in my life to USB-C. It's kind of like a one-time, okay, this is the future.

Um, but honestly, like at my desk, it's one Thunderbolt port going into my Cal digit. Cause I have a bunch of stuff, uh, plugged in. Um, but yeah, I don't know how to, I don't have any complaints there. I don't miss USB-A. I don't think that's that big of a deal.

at this point you know we're now really 10 years into the usbc era because that that little macbook actually introduced it to the mac and it's pretty great having an sd card slot again you know someone who records audio sometimes on the sd card or you know use a big camera like not having to use an adapter for for a memory card is pretty sweet yeah

And then the other thing that I feel like we just have to mention is it's 2025 and you still can't buy a laptop with a built-in cellular radio. Yeah, it'd be so sweet. I mean, it's... it's right there right like apple apple even has their own modem now the the c1 and the c1x it seems like something they could and should do and it would certainly be

With the iPad, it's $130, I think, to get the cellular one. And then, of course, whatever the playing costs. On an iPad, that is a pretty significant percentage of the cost on some models. But if I'm buying a MacBook Pro... I was spending $3,000. Another $130 for a cellular is almost a no-brainer at that point. I would certainly be interested in it just for those times where I'm somewhere and there's...

the wifi is bad or I'm having to tether. Like it would be pretty cool to have it built in. Yeah. I think it's more likely than ever now that we have Apple making the chip. They don't have to go to anybody else. Um, they're. they are rolling their own modems out slowly. It's not in the currently shipping iPhone Pro. I don't think it's in the standard iPhone either. I think it's just in the iPhone Air, if memory serves. So I think they're just kind of, they don't want it to...

to, to go wrong. So they're slowly building up to that. But I, I would guess in a year or two that we're going to get cellular in our Mac books. Yeah. It'd be, it'd be, it'd be, it'd be good to see, especially like if the a 18 pro Mac book is real. It's like. And of course, that's using the Qualcomm chip, right? I think that's been part of this, that Apple and Qualcomm, the maker of their other cellular modems, Apple hates Qualcomm. Like, they want to be done with them.

And that's why, you know, I think it's like five or six years now, Apple bought Intel's, and let me not sugarcoat this, failing cellular modem division, bought it from Intel. And took those people five years to get the C1 out the door. But now that it's out the door, it seems much more likely that, you know, Apple use their own modem in the iPad.

and the mac and and be done with qualcomm as a partner so i think we're on the on the road to that for sure yeah and i don't really fault how long it took i feel like When it comes to a modem chip, you have to be 1,000% right on it before you start putting in shipping products. So it takes a while. But now that they're getting the reps in, it's going to propagate through the line. Yeah.

I want to ask you about desktops. I had this question when I started working on this document a couple of weeks ago. I was like, is it weird that Apple sells two laptop models, like two families, but four? They have the Mac Mini, the iMac, the Mac Studio, and the Mac Pro. Is that strange to you? Yeah, and they sell more MacBook Airs than all of the desktops combined. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But...

I don't want to say that out loud because I think there's space for all four of these computers. And one of the problems with Apple these days is they are compressing products too often, in my opinion. And what it says to me is that they need more laptops. It doesn't say to me that they need fewer desktops. Because each one of these serves a unique purpose.

Yeah, that's where I got to as well. I think they're doing it on desktops because I think they know that people who are going to buy a Mac desktop, they probably have more specific requirements. So the Mac Mini... is as small as possible you want that in a conference room or under a tv or you know uh in some sort of embedded system somewhere um you've got the imac for sort of the family user for

office work uh apple's very proud of the fact that they're used at check-ins and fancy hotels and then you have the studio and the pro for those more power users who who may have different needs and so i get it And I do want them to continue doing it. It's just kind of funny to me. I mean, even the way that I think about the Mac and that we talk about it often.

is like sort of desktop centric even though the laptops sell outsell the desktops a zillion to one so yeah um i thought we could start with start with the smallest start with the mac mini uh

We have seen in the last year the redesigned Mac Mini that's really small. And instead of just the base M4, you can also get it with the M4 Pro. And I think everyone I know was like, I don't need a Mac mini, but I want a Mac mini. How do you view this machine now that it's gotten more capable? I mean, it again is the obvious choice of desktop computers from Apple.

I have a lot of people in the Max Markey Labs who have bought these, and every single one of them loves the decision. I mean, it's less money. It takes up less footprint on your computer. And because of Apple Silicon, you get an M4 Pro. It's going to do just about anything you want it to do. I mean, you've seen people buy four of these things and chain them together to build it.

killer local ai um you know every it's just like i said earlier about the macbook air this is probably the desktop computer we all need um and that's it uh i think this is just such a huge win that you've got the macbook air equivalent on the desktop now yeah adding the pro was like perfect because again 90% of folks are going to be super happy with that computer and not need any more. Jason Snyder wrote this thing like 10 years ago, and I think about it.

Every time the Mac mini comes up is that it's the escape hatch in Apple's Mac hardware lineup because you can use it in all of those different ways, right? It fits into. a bunch of different scenarios and because it's at least it starts relatively cheaply if you just need a base desktop mac to put on a desk somewhere or put it in a closet right to run backblaze or something

It's pretty compelling. And I do think with the M4 Pro, Apple is taking it more seriously. And it makes a smoother gradient from the Mac Mini up to the Mac Studio, which we'll talk about in a second. But I'm very pleased that Apple keeps investing in the Mac Mini. I think it's a fantastic machine. And really, I think for a lot of people, if you're going to buy a desktop, you don't...

If you have a display or you're willing to buy an external display and not use the iMac, the Mac mini is plenty for almost everybody. Yeah, I mean, because I have a desktop computer, I have an always-on computer. But if I had a laptop right now, as we record this, we're in the midst of Black Friday sales. You can get an entry-level Mac Mini so cheap. Yeah.

If I was a laptop only guy, I would be super tempted just to get one and put it in my media closet and attach storage to it and run Hazel rules and email rules and stuff and just have it always on Mac. They're that cheap. I mean, that's exactly how I'm using my Mac mini. I actually have our editor, Jim Metzendorf. I have his old entry-level M1 Mac mini hooked up to my TV. It's got a bunch of drives hooked up to it. And it's just, it hums along.

and it doesn't even hum it's basically silent it just silently sits there doing running home bridge running plex doing these different things yeah i had a lab server complain to me he says the only thing i don't like about it is that it's so light that when i put heavy cables on it like you know i hang a big drive on it with a thick cable that it pulls the device around the table because i said just listen to your complaint

Just listen to what you're saying. I mean, this is crazy. That's pretty funny. Yeah. The iMac is the next one up in the chain. And I think this is a very unique Mac at this point. important as it is historically for the company it's the it's the mac that kind of saved apple um it has a relatively small role at this point i mean uh some people still want an all-in-one or you run a company and you want to

a cool looking blue Mac on your receptionist desk or whatever. You know, I think that it's kind of a limited use case, but it's still in the age of Apple Silicon, a great Mac. It is. You know, I think the iMac is in this weird position because in the Intel days, you could really get a powerful iMac. You know, the 5K iMac.

towards the end of its run was really a compelling machine. Of course, you had the iMac Pro, which is this weird offshoot of history where the Mac Pro wasn't going to exist anymore, but then they put the iMac Pro on sale anyways. I had an iMac Pro. It was fantastic.

But when they moved to Apple Silicon, they sort of reset the iMac back to being on the consumer side of things for the most part. And I think that's where some of us struggle with the iMac now. I really... like the all-in-one lifestyle you know when i first quit my job i had a 5k iMac like a 2015 5k iMac and then i had the iMac pro

and it was great as a studio computer because it was all in one it was quiet it was you know you could plug stuff into the back of it and now mostly because of the screen size but also because it just has the base processor in it which limits your RAM and storage options. The iMac is not a machine that I would consider as for a work computer for myself. And I think a lot of people, you know, sort of in our circles, listeners, you know, members like.

I think a lot of us feel that way. It's like, man, the iMac used to be something that really fit into my life, and now it doesn't. And it doesn't seem like Apple's going to make a bigger iMac at this point. They've said several times, like... The solution is a studio display and something else. And that's a bit of a bummer for people who really liked the big iMac. But I think at this point, we need to accept that it's not something that Apple...

values at this point in the Apple Silicon era. And enjoy the iMac for what it is. If you need a home computer, if you need a computer for receptions, I was like, I had an orange one in the studio for a while as a review. It was a great computer. I found myself, when it was time to give it up, wanting to find a place for it in my life. Ask my wife, hey, do you want an iMac? She's like, no, she wants a laptop. Trying to find a place where...

this computer fit because it is a joy. The iMac is fun again. I mean, if you haven't seen one, like they're, they're fun. They're colorful. They're interesting. But because of the shift, I think it lives in tension. And that's a bit of a bummer to me, to be honest. Yeah. When my kids were little, it was before kind of the age of the iPad. And kids didn't have phones. And so I was really vigilant about not having computers in their bedrooms. Yeah.

So we had an iMac downstairs that was the family computer. If the kids needed to work on the computer, they did it right in front of all of us. And I think even today, that's a perfect use for one of these iMacs. They're not that expensive. You put one... in the common area of your house and your young children can work on the computer without getting in trouble and um that's like one use you see them in businesses all the time what i have noted is as max barkey and the mac power users host

When these new iMacs first showed up, we were regularly getting email from listeners and readers saying, okay, this is great, but when are they going to make the big one? Yeah. And that email has stopped. I don't get those emails anymore. I think people have kind of recategorized in their brain that this iMac is, you know, fills a very unique kind of hole in the line and that's it.

And I don't think Apple has any intention to do any more with it than what they're doing. It's going to get an update every few years. Maybe it'll get a redesign at some point, but I don't think we're going back to the iMac Pro days. I don't think so either. And as recently as 2023, Apple confirmed with The Verge and other outlets that they did not have a plan for a 27-inch iMac.

And I think they had to respond to that because they heard this feedback from the community. Right. Cause like people loved it. I mean, right now I've, I've got someone who, um, like a really old consulting client of mine that I, I still do some work for her. Very rarely. She's a graphic designer. She has a 5K iMac. It won't run Tahoe. It's getting older. And I've prepped her. We need to be thinking about replacing this computer.

she was like she's like oh i'll just get another big iMac i'm like oh i got i got bad news for you like really we should look at a a nice Mac mini in the studio display right but um But I think Apple's set here. And honestly, with the Mac Studio, I do understand the product strategy here where you have the iMac and the Mac Mini.

And if you want something more powerful, you're moving to the Mac studio. And, you know, one complaint, like, you know, I don't want to have completely roasted in glasses about the past. But one complaint about the 27, the 5k iMac in particular was the computer is old, but the display is still great. And, or my computer died and I'm throwing out this panel with the computer and that.

as an issue, right? And they had done, you know, the days of using an iMac as an external display are long, long gone at this point. That's off the table. Maybe Apple could bring that back at some point, but... The marriage of the computer and the display does come with downsides. And one of the things about an iMac Pro or a high-end 5K iMac, those users very often would...

Outrun the computer and the display still be fine. So like something with the Mac Studio or the high-end Mac Mini or the MacBook Pro is you can buy a display and you can use multiple computers with it over time. And I think there's a little bit of that in the decision to go with the Mac Studio from Apple's perspective of you're going to plug this in to a monitor.

And in two years when you need a new one because you're doing animated video or you're doing AI training or you're doing software development, your whole setup stays the same. You don't have to buy another display. We don't have to recycle a display. And you just swap out the computer. And the Mac Studio, I think, is the example of that because it is the high-end desktop now. And it is modular in the sense that the display is not built in. So there are...

to this strategy, even though we might be a little sad about it too. Yeah. I mean, this is the second computer I've used with this display and I expect there'll be a third, you know, hopefully a fourth. Yeah. And so I'm all down with this, but we do hear from people that love the iMac platform. They come to us and say, what do we do? And my advice is, first of all, take a good look at the current iMac, even if the screen is a little smaller than you're used to.

It's a great machine. It's really fast. And you may be just fine with it. And it's cute and clever. you get your colored mouse, you know, you can really enjoy that new computer. And it's not like the old days. I think it's 24 inches now. I mean, 24 and a half. I think it's not that far from 27, you know, so.

You may find that that's good enough for you. The other thing is, you get a Mac Mini, you do not have to buy an Apple display. There's a lot of less expensive displays out there. So you could set up one with... minimal cost uh you know mac mini and and a acceptable third-party display could maybe you could get in for under a thousand dollars so uh there's options out there for you is what i tell people yeah and

Don't hold your breath for the Super iMac Pro again. I think those days are gone. I do too. And to clarify, the iMac is a 24-inch. 4.5k display but then the fine print the actual diagonal screen is 23.5 inches um okay so i knew there was a 0.5 in there somewhere but it's a it's a great display right wide color and all that stuff um

But you're right. A lot of people who are going to, I think especially the Mac mini, but maybe even the Mac studio, you know, like if you want an ultra wide monitor and like, I know there are people out there listening to this who, who use ultra wides and swear by them. Apple's not. gonna make an ultra wide iMac or an external display probably so yeah buy a Mac studio and and hook it up to an external display um

You are a Mac Studio user. I was for a brief moment in time when it first came out. I sold my 2019 Mac Pro because the values were cratering and like... The business owned it. It was an asset of the business. Like, I can't take a bath on this. So I got rid of it when it still had some value in it. And you wanted an update. And I wanted an update. I was like, I can always buy another one in 15 years when they're cheap.

But having experience with the Mac studio and you a lot more than me, like it really seems like a great computer. It's really good. Yeah, man. I mean, you were talking about IO earlier in the IO on this thing is great. I don't. I think on one of the recent, the gift episodes, you mentioned the, what is it? The USB device, the power supply that everybody gets. The CalDigit thing?

Yeah, the CalDigit. And at one point you said, well, what do you do with your CalDigit? I'm like, I don't have one. Because I have a Mac Studio. Everything just plugs in. So I love it. I love that it's got IO on the front of it. I use that all the time. The small platform works for me. I'm okay with the integrated memory and storage for the kind of work I do. I do a lot of work with video production, and this thing is a beast for that.

And I like that I can walk in the room at any moment and just sit down and start working. I know that's a lot better now on the laptops, plugging it into a monitor and whatnot, but mine is even better because everything's just wired together. Yeah. It's just a great computer, and that's why ultimately I decided not to follow you down the laptop path earlier this year because I just really like what it does.

I did pay for the extra storage, but it just makes everything so easy. I don't have to juggle hard drives. And I, you know... The joke with me is I always say, what's your favorite Mac? And I said, well, there's two. That's the first one I had, and it's the current one I have. I've never had a Mac that I'm not happy with, but this Mac Studio is such a great fit for me.

And right now they're up to M4 for the max hardware and M3 Ultra. It's kind of a weird thing. They just chose not to do the M4 Ultra. I mean, at the time, we were hypothesizing that that was going to be for the Mac Pro, but they just didn't make it. I'm guessing that, you know, the demand for that Ultra chip is not super high.

doesn't justify making one with each iteration. I think Apple's even said that now. Yeah. And we're hearing very loudly in the rumor department that we're going to get an M5 Max and Ultra. probably in the middle of next year um and uh you know it's i think it's probably a low seller on the market you know on the max they sell but i think And they're not going to be making a ton of these things, but for the people that want them, they're great. When I hear my...

My live members tell me how much they love their Mac mini. I'm like, oh, that's true. I love that you love it, but I have no interest in it. I want the bigger one. I want all the input output. I use every port on it. There's not a single empty one. It's just an amazing computer in so many ways. And it's quiet. It doesn't make any noise. It just sits on my desk and does the job all day.

Yeah, it's a really compelling machine. You have all that IO, you have all that power. And I do think with the Mac Studio in particular, Apple is moving quickly to a space where... local ai both development and usage is going to be more possible than ever we're going to talk about that early next year um but it does also leave the question of like what's going on with the mac pro and as recently as a couple of weeks ago

Mark Gurman reported that it's, quote, on the back burner and largely written off at Apple. And that's actually not surprising to me. The Mac Pro strength always was you can open it and you can put stuff in it. And with unified memory architecture, like you spoke about a second ago, with the GPU not being, that's also on the system on a chip. It's not external.

The Mac Pro basically is a Mac studio with card slots for audio interfaces and networking stuff. And there are people who need it, but the number is super, super small. And I think that the Mac Pro being around is maybe it's a side effect of the 2019 Mac Pro being radically different. And so they're going to.

They got some cases, they're still manufacturing it, so they're just going to let it run. But I don't think the future of the Pro desktop on the Mac line is the Mac Pro. I think it's the Mac Studio. And while it makes me sad, I completely understand it.

I think it comes down to chip architecture. Apple has been very deliberate with this Apple Silicon. You've got for every M series chip, you've got the base chip, which is what you find in the MacBook air or the Mac mini. And then you've got, and I'm simplifying here, so you don't need to write me, but for the pro level.

You glue two of those together. So a pro chip is 2X of a MacBook Air base chip, right? And then... you know you've got the max chip which is you glue four of them together so it's two pros right and then you've got the ultra which is

you glue eight of them together, which is basically, you know, it's eight times the power you get into the entry level. And when they first started the Mac, the apple silicon age there were all these rumors and leaks that there was another version which as users we always called the extreme version it seemed like the natural term for it but it's basically 16.

of the base chips glued together which is going to have crazy graphics performance crazy performance and you know now we're five years into it we've seen the pro we've seen the max we've seen the ultra We have not seen this extreme chip, this hypothetical extreme chip. And I think it was always the natural expectation. that once they got to make an extreme chip that would go into the big macbook pro or sorry the mac pro chassis it's got massive cooling so it wouldn't overheat

And it would be like taking Apple Silicon to the ultimate iteration. And it was either too hard to make it. or it was too expensive to make it, or they decided that the ultra performance was so good that they don't need to make it. But it feels to me like there was probably a plan at some point to make this extreme level and that would naturally fit in the pro.

But they're, for whatever reason, not making it. I read one rumor that they think it's going to be years before they can make it. Like maybe in five years, they'll make the extreme chip. They'll have the M10 extreme. And suddenly there'll be a need for a Mac Pro again. But if the Ultra is the top of the line, what they're doing now, then why bother making a Mac Pro when they're putting it into the studio?

A lot of questions. Yeah, I mean, it's all hypothetical. It is, for sure. And, you know, something we haven't talked about with Apple Silicon yet in this conversation an hour into the episode is that... The release schedule hasn't been regular. Machines have been updated regularly, but the M3, M3 Pro, M3 Max all came out at the same time, if memory serves. The M5, which is new now.

is only in the base 14-inch MacBook Pro and the iPad. Apple has been a little uneven, including with the UltraChip, let alone something hypothetically above it.

Yeah, I kind of think out of all these Macs, the Mac Pro is the one that's got the shortest time left on this earth. Yeah, and it's like I was saying earlier, the more you benefit from... apple silicon the lower you are on the line and here's the very top of the line computer which may not even exist anymore although i'll say just looking at next year we will get the m5 pro and max laptops we're going to get the

max and ultra max studio next year is going to be a great year for max i'm actually going to be really tempted to upgrade my studio next year when you can get the um Because the AI benefits, the local AI stuff is really good on the A5 chip. I'm sorry, the M5 chip. So it's just going to be a fun year next year as they release all this stuff. And then the other thing.

that the rumors are saying is that the next iteration of the M6 MacBook Pro is going to be a new design and maybe much better screens and stuff. So I think there's some real good hardware stuff coming for everybody in the next year or two. What about displays? Yeah, just quickly, I think that both of the displays Apple has on sale right now are old. The Pro display is really expensive, came out in 2019.

And while very technically capable at the time, other technologies have surpassed it. And I think there's definitely room for a new display at the high end. And the studio display in some ways is even in worse shape. Like I'm using a studio display, but the panels from the old 5k iMac and it's got built in speakers that are pretty good. The camera's pretty bad, but. It's an old panel, and I would love to see maybe the studio display goes to mini OLED or something, mini LED.

and then the xdr goes to oled like uh you know promotion like there's lots of display technology that that is not in apple's external displays some of that right maybe a use of thunderbolt 5 right moving A 5K display at a high refresh rate is a lot more data. Maybe Thunderbolt 5 gets them there. So I hope that there's movement here before too long because neither of them are an excellent choice at the moment.

Yeah, I feel like this is where they need to improve in the Mac lineup is the displays. They're out of date, and if they're going to stay in the display business, they need to stay current in the display business. Yep. Right now, it's real hard to justify spending, was it like $1,600 for the studio display based on what else is available on the market?

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Let's shift gears to Mac software. Let's start with macOS Tahoe, this year's release. Tahoe will be remembered for the redesign for bringing liquid glass to the Mac. You and I have both been using it for a long time now because we run the betas. How are you doing with the visual overhaul in macOS? Honestly,

I am not reacting to it as negatively as a lot of our friends are. It's fine. I don't think it's as revolutionary as Apple makes it out to be, and I don't think it's as bad as people make it out to be. I think it's somewhere in the middle. I am, it's so, never have we had an update where it's so obvious, the apps that haven't updated. Just look at the corner of the app and you know whether it's liquid glass friendly or not.

You know, if it's got a sharp, if it's got a small radius, it's an old app. And if it's got a big radius, it's a new app. Yeah. But I haven't had that many usability problems with it. it's it's fine you know it's just kind of the new look and i uh i am not really too hung up on it i don't love it but it's fine it's not getting in my way yeah i think

I think part of the new design, like I personally, this is going to be controversial. I like the volume and brightness changes being up in the upper right instead of being this huge thing in the middle of the screen. And I generally like the way liquid glass looks, the way it refracts and reflects light. So while I don't love all of it, I think toolbars in particular are pretty ugly. Like I said, it's not getting in my way.

And, you know, likewise, I really haven't had any issues from the technical side of... tahoe either on a previous episode i complained that i could not get live activities to show up on my mac and the point one update fixed it um or a random reboot fixed it at some point they just started working

Magic, I guess. But none of my core apps have had issues. They've all been updated. You run into the visual thing, right? Like you said, the window radius thing. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. But... My apps are all working. It didn't fundamentally change anything about the way that I do my work in the user interface or the software stack that I use.

I think for all the fanfare and hand-wringing over the design stuff, which some of it is legitimate, I really think Tahoe's been honestly much calmer than I was kind of afraid it would be. Yeah. We did a bunch of coverage on it when it released, but one point I forgot to make in that show that still bugs me is I just feel like the system settings, that transition they made to kind of the iPad version of system settings a couple of years ago.

We're a couple of years in now and I still feel like that needs a ton of work and it feels like it's been ignored. Yeah, it's not good. I understand. wanting the settings on your various devices to look similar. That's not a bad goal at all, but they took system preferences, which of course it had its issues. But system settings is just weird. And however many years we're into this, I still find myself searching most of the time because I can't internalize like.

Why so many things are under General. I mean, the same way on the iPhone and iPad. General holds a lot of other stuff. I think it's also a bit of a condemnation on SwiftUI and where it is on the Mac. SwiftUI on the iPhone and iPad is pretty good.

yeah but on the mac it's still rough around the edges and places and so you run into things like oh in this part of system settings this thing is a drop down but in this other section they couldn't do a drop down for some reason so it's this other thing right that's It's not great. It's not, again, not getting in my way. I just search. I find the thing that I need. But it still bugs me that it's not what it was.

I think the reason it bugs me is because the Apple preferences, since the first Mac to me, have been a point of pride as a user. That they're so carefully done. I mean, we talked about... My origin story with the Mac was when I saw the control panel on a Mac. I'm like, yes, this is what I want. It's just like somebody who thinks about it this much.

And now it's kind of feels slapdash. And I'm like, it makes me a little sad because that's historically one of the things that made this platform attractive to me. Yeah. Apple intelligence and Siri, you know.

Apple intelligence is now a year and a half ish out. It's been kind of a sad story, but there are some bright spots to me right now. The personal user access to private cloud compute via shortcuts is something I continue to experiment with and appreciate. Obviously, it's not... a power of a frontier model that you get with some of these services like Claude and ChatGPT and Gemini, but it's entirely private. It's run through private servers, and you can access it through shortcuts.

for a lot of things where you want a large language model to process something for you it's good enough and private so i feel like that's that's a little bit of a win with this But I also feel like this is something that the story is not done yet. And hopefully in the next year, we'll have a lot more to say. Yeah, I agree. I mean, it feels like Apple's on the cusp of some great stuff here.

But we'll see. Either that or proving that they're incapable of doing this. Yeah, something's going to happen, right? They cannot stay in this limbo forever. There's just no way. They're screaming down the runway. The plane is either going to take off or crash into the trees. Yeah. They're running out of runway at this point. They are. Yeah. Siri, that's kind of the related conversation.

And we'll hopefully again hear a lot about that this year. Yeah. What do you think about Siri on your Mac? I mean, as part of the Mac stack. I don't use it on the Mac. I've got it turned off. I do use Siri on my phone. right and on my apple watch and on my home pods but on the mac it's like i can do whatever i want to do with my hands way faster maybe that's just being southern talking a little slower than some people but

Because the thing that I like about Siri, right? Like in the car with CarPlay or on my watch, it's hands-free, right? I can just shout the word or I can hit the button and I can talk. Because it's a secondary activity. I'm washing the dishes and I want to skip to the next song, right? I'm driving and I want to text you about a ravine I just saw.

when I'm at my computer, I'm already doing the thing. The primary thing is already happening. And so for me, it never stuck on the Mac and now I just have it off. Agreed. Although. I'm using voice more than ever this year. This isn't related to the Apple platform review, but AI and voice recognition have got really good this year. So I could see myself wanting to control my Mac more with my voice as part of that.

And I don't think that the series up to the task as of this day. Yeah. Annual releases revisited. Every year we talk and bemoan the release cycle. the developers really don't have time to add significant new features when you take in the amount of time it takes to polish release and bug fix annual release. I get the sense that both of us are kind of finding peace with it. Where are you with annual releases at this point? Yeah, I have found peace with it because it means...

generally that the Mac gets features the same time the iPhone and iPad do. So something like emoji tap backs and messages that may, you know, in the past. If that came out in iOS 6 and we were waiting for Mountain Lion to come out, maybe that's a different thing. But now, because some of these apps are cross-platform, the Message app is actually kind of a bad example because it's Mac Catalyst.

features coming to both to all the platforms at once or features that depend on each other so my one of my favorite new things in mac os is iphone mirroring i use it all the time and right that's an update on the ios side and update on the mac side and they have to work together so if the mac continues to be a sibling with the same footing as the other products and that means an annual release cycle then fine like i'm i'm okay with that

Yeah. And I had a friend at Apple tell me, you know, Dave, when you say that it's not a mutually exclusive thing. Sure. You can have a new feature that people spend years on. Yeah. at the same time they're doing annual releases oh clearly there are things that come out and he's like okay this has been in the hopper for a while right yeah um that's that's a really good point that i just think i do think it's missed

Yeah. I just wanted to mention the stage manager. I think that's evolved a little bit every year, got incrementally better. I'm finding increasing uses for it. I'm not using it every day, but like recently I've been doing a lot of presentations on zoom for like this album productivity, sweet field guide.

In that case, I've got slides up, but I also want to jump into the Apple apps frequently. And Zoom doesn't make that easy. But if you just set up a stage manager with selective apps and then share your full screen. Going between them is very fluid. It's just one more use for it. And just like we talked about it in the iPad show, I think there can be use for stage manager now, but it's not for me like the only solution for window management.

I'm glad that they kind of kept swinging at that. Yeah. And it has got better. Yeah. And just like the iPad, right? Apple leaves old systems around. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. But they didn't, like, you still have mission control and all the other stuff, too. Yep, yep. I'm a huge Spaces fan, and it is alive and well. We did a whole show on Apple Productivity Suite. I made a field guide on it this year. One thing that now, after having taught it now.

for a couple months. The one thing that really comes up frequently, especially with power users, is linking support. I mean, it's kind of crazy how hard it is to link to an Apple Note. You can do it. But you've got to know the tricks. And this has been a common theme with all the Apple stuff. If you want a mail message and you just want to get a link to it that you can embed somewhere else, that's hard too. All this stuff is kind of possible.

But Apple obviously is not making it kind of accessible to non-power users. And I feel like that's a big thing they need to work on. And I still think that there's some weirdly sharp corners in the Apple software. The overall theme has been for several years now that they just get better at it every year. Yeah.

And I think that's a good segue into sort of the other kind of app level stuff going into macOS because it's really hard to separate these things, right? Because Apple only updates most of these apps with an OS release. which is something we've talked about, something that you and I both wish would change. Like if you have a good idea for reminders, do it and don't wait a year, but that is what it is.

For a long time, though, we've been talking about automation on the Mac. And for a minute, it felt like there's a shift going on, right? Away from Automator to Shortcuts.

like all the old hits still playing right like you've got the terminal you've got apple script you got uh keyboard maestro keyboard maestro yeah all the third party stuff um and i i kind of feel like that transition has has more or less stalled out like shortcuts is getting better and with the llm support locally and chat gpt like you can do more interesting things with shortcuts more powerful things with shortcuts but

like the ui control stuff apple is very willing to keep those old things around and yeah um as someone who has a bunch of automator stuff who like i just never rebuilt it in any other system i'm glad for it my laziness has been rewarded But it is still, amongst Apple's platforms, macOS is still uniquely powerful when it comes to automation. Yeah, and I would say that's even doubled down because of the arrival of large language models.

The LLM tools on the Mac are just so much better than they are on iPad and iPhone that if you want to take an automation, like take a... screenshot of an invoice and send it to an LLM and say, give me back the exact, you know, account number and cost or whatever. LLMs do that way better than any other solution before. And that stuff is just much easier on the Mac.

it kind of continues to reign supreme for automation. I do feel like Shortcuts has a lot of rough edges that just don't seem to get fixed. I hope that the Shortcuts team is getting the resources it needs. There's a lot of things where there's actions that exist on the iPhone but don't exist on the Mac. It seems to me like there's a lot that could be done to make shortcuts better, and the pace of it, to me, is too slow.

I'm a power user and I'll be the first to admit it. So, and I know Apple has other fish to fry, but I would have liked to seen shortcuts for the Mac further at this point than it is. Agreed. Agreed. I mean, just the other day I was working on something. on my iphone on a shortcut tweaking a shortcut that i already had i was like oh i'm at my mac like i'll just i'll just switch over to the mac version and like out there it wasn't there it's like

what is taking you so long to sync or you end up with sync conflicts that don't make any sense. Like it, it needs some work. I'm glad it's here because shortcuts is the most approachable version of this stuff that Apple's ever built, but it needs to be better.

All right. Just in general, kind of meta software stuff, what do you think of the Mac App Store in 2025? I mean, a lot of developers we know and love aren't there. because of sandboxing or business restrictions um i think it's great and uh you know i certainly don't begrudge anyone using the mac app store but Apple has not made it flexible enough for a lot of Mac developers. So it's it's fine. But like if I'm looking if I'm going to buy a piece of software and the developer offers it.

individually or on the app store you know most of the time so well sometimes first of all there's differences between those versions Sometimes the Mac app store version is more expensive to offset Apple's 30% or 15% if they're in the small business program. So I don't know, like I get why it's there. And it allows right iPhone and iPad apps to run on Apple Silicon.

which is a good thing if developers opt into it. But it's not the place I necessarily go when it's time to find a new tool or utility. Yeah, I would love to see someone at Apple with authority take ownership of it and rethink it. I think it could be a lot better. And I don't have all the answers, but I just think it could be a lot better. And there's a smart person at Apple that could make it better.

The other thing is this year, gaming, you know, Apple has kind of pushed further into gaming. They have the game porting toolkit they announced last year. We had a couple big software releases this year where there was like class A games coming out. And, you know, I had a bad experience with it. I bought the Assassin's Creed game. They have one where you were in feudal Japan. I mean, that's like right up my alley. I'd love to.

honestly just walk around feudal japan more than doing the assassin's creed stuff um it was unplayable on my m2 studio max computer it just was i mean it was it was terrible it was like It felt like one frame a second and all sorts of weird artifacts. Fortunately, that's the first time I ever requested a refund in the Mac app store and they gave it to me. But I feel like an M2 Studio Max.

that can't play a new release game is a bad sign. And I'm not the authority here. I'm sure we have listeners who are doing Mac gaming and finding ways around the stuff. I feel like the gaming story on the Mac continues to be kind of an unfulfilled promise. I think the other kind of big app story... On the Mac is Electron eating the world, right? If I look at the apps in my dock, several of them that I use every day aren't.

native in the sense that they're written in swift or objective c they're electron right they are a wrapper around um web technologies and that means that they don't support a lot of the stuff mac apps should support and i don't know how apple fights against it i think ultimately it's bad for the mac if electron eats the world because it means some of the things that make mac os great

aren't really taken advantage of by software. But I don't know how Apple pushes back. I think that's really hard. I think when you have a platform that's as open as the Mac, these things are inevitable. But it may also be a phase, right? Like back in the early days of Mac OS X, Apple was talking a lot about how great their Java support was. And that's all long gone. Maybe that'll happen to Electron. Maybe something else will come along. But in this moment, in 2025...

I think that's a pressure point on Mac OS that Apple's feeling. Yeah, and I mean, we see how that affects us for real because we all have these Electron apps. You and I are using an Electron app at this moment to run the show. You know, actually two as I look both, you know, but the, so we had an issue.

recently where there was an update to electron but if you hadn't got the update or the software hadn't run the flag for the new update it had significant performance impact on you know the latest version of mac os and Like that is getting sorted out now. Apple's updating for it as well. But it's like the whole platform suffers because we're all using these non-native apps that we really don't have much choice about if we do anything online.

And I agree with you. I don't know what the story is on that, how they fix or get out of that. As a user, I am increasingly trying to not use Electron apps, but there's no way to avoid it for a lot of the stuff I do.

So kind of wrapping up the Mac here, I want to do, we're going to do this with all the sections. We're going to do predictions and overall thoughts.

Where are your predictions laying? What do you think is next for the Mac? Well, I mean, just more of the same. I think we're going to get a lot of refinement. I'll start with the software. I think we're going to get a lot of... refinement to liquid glass i think a lot of the accessibility things are going to get ironed out over the next year or two but i don't see like any major direction changes with software now that they've done the ui overhaul

And I'm actually kind of curious to see what the big effort, what is the multi-year effort in Mac software at this point? They spent a lot of the last 10 years tightening down the screws for security. I think that's kind of built in. figured out how to change the underlying system to work with Apple Silicon. That's done now. They've changed the look of it. I'm just kind of curious, what is the big movement for Mac software in the next few years? I don't know what it is.

Probably AI and Siri integration, but I'd like to see that happen. As to hardware, I think the stuff we've talked about today is right on track. I am so happy with the general hardware situation. I think making the lower end hardware better was the exact right move. Making an awesome MacBook Air, awesome Mac Mini, and then taking care of people at the higher end is good. I'm not even bent out of shape about no Mac Pro.

Maybe that's personal. I don't think I would ever buy one. But I think we're looking at more of the same. I mean, for the M5, we're hearing about the Pro and Max. to the MacBook Pro and the Max and the Ultra to the Mac Studio, which makes sense. One thing that makes me a little nervous about the future is this rumored M6 MacBook Pro redesign.

Because I feel like they got it so right with the current hardware. You know, the input-output, the overall thermal design, the good keyboard. It's like, have they...

I hope they remember the lesson that they got when they made this design. Me too. And if they're going to improve upon it, that they don't try to make the MacBook Pro thinner and lighter to the... extent of input and output and performance and the things that people buy macbook pros for yeah yeah i agree i have a little a little trepidation there as well i think for me

The big thing on the software side, because I agree with you on all the hardware stuff. On the software side, what I'm looking at is Mac OS 27. So next year's release will drop Intel support. Tahoe is the last OS to support Intel Macs. Now. There's only a handful of Intel Macs supported by Tahoe to begin with, right? Each year or every couple of years, they've been whittling the list down. But this is kind of the final straw. And that...

may cause some consternation. My guess is it's not going to cause a lot of outcry. I remember I was around when Snow Leopard dropped PowerPC support. It was very quick. It was very fast. Tiger and Leopard were the only two OSs that supported both PowerPC and Intel. And of course, OSs ran for multiple years back then.

but the time window was pretty short. This time window has been much longer. I don't actually think it's going to be a huge deal, but it's going to be a change. It's a marking point, right? That we are fully in the Apple Silicon era with whatever Mac OS 27. And so I think that'll be something that we talk about and observe next year. Interesting stat from Bloomberg. In 2020, 40%.

of Mac users held onto their computers three plus years. In 2024, 56% of Mac customers hold onto their computers three plus years. Wow. This is an Apple Silicon Boon. The software hardware is great because it's all on one chip, just like our iPads. It doesn't break. Macs last longer. I expect fully that in another three or four years, that stat will be pushing 70%. I don't know what the number is for iPads. I would guess it's around 70%.

Most people that buy a Mac laptop or just a Mac in general are going to keep it a long time. That has an impact for Apple in terms of the number of computers they sell. But as a user, I am all for it. And I think that's another kind of future trend we're going to see is when you get a Mac. because of the quality of Apple Silicon, you're going to hold on to a long time. And I would recommend to people to take the lesson I learned, get enough RAM, get enough storage when you buy it, because...

The processor speed is not going to require you to buy a new computer for a long time. Just make sure you've got the storage and the RAM to maintain it for a while. Yeah. And this also raises questions of... what will apple do in terms of supporting apple silicon max right like obviously the m1 is still fully supported but it's also five years old and so but it's also still for sale at walmart um

It'll be interesting to see how all of this plays in the next several years. That's not a 2026 thing, but 2027, 2028, we might start seeing Apple drop some early Apple Silicon Macs. That I think will be a much bigger deal. But as I understand it, that decision as to whether to support something is performance-based, like, yeah, this just doesn't run any good on these older computers, so we're going to stop supporting it.

I think the M1 has runway left for being good enough to run whatever they're going to give us. Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. Although I think, again, the problem, that is going to be those original M1s that ship with 8 gigabytes of RAM. That's going to be a huge problem for people. Yeah, definitely. It may be a point where, I mean, I can really see this. Apple Intelligence 2.0 or whatever, whatever the new fixed version is.

Maybe that only, maybe that requires 16 gigs of RAM. And so maybe eight gigabyte systems, M1, M2, M whatever. aren't supported right we may see fracturing we probably will see fracturing of features because even intel max they don't get a bunch of stuff that apple silicon max get on tahoe right that's been the case for a while now

So we may see fracturing of features before we see actual system requirements change. All right. Overall, what are your thoughts on the Mac these days? Five stars, baby. I mean, the hardware is unbelievable. Tahoe, despite some... visual things that people may not like or may may have rough edges i think mac os is in a good place and from the power user perspective so i'm i'm super happy with where the mac is yeah me too i you know it's like

It would be so hard to use any other PC platform at this point when you look at how great the Mac is killing it just across the board. Mm-hmm.

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Apple Watch. Okay, we did the long segment on the Mac as always, but let's talk about the Apple Watch. What are you currently using? Yeah, so I'm on the Apple Watch Ultra 3 in the space black. whatever they call the dark color. It's fantastic. I switched to the ultra line with the ultra one, had a launch day ultra one and I love the ultra. I like the way it looks.

I like the battery life. I can sleep track with it really easily. So yeah, super happy with it. Yeah, you and I are exactly the same. I started with the one, just moved to the three, and it's a great device. It really is. How's Apple doing on the hardware with the Apple Watch? You know, I was going through this and I think this is really the best year of Apple Watch hardware in a while. I think in particular, the SE3.

is such an improvement over the se2 so it has all the always on display it has almost all the health features of the series 11 minus three things ecg blood oxygen and the hypertension detection and all are running on the same S10 system on a chip. You know, for a long time there, it's like, well, the SE is the cheap one, but it's got real trade-offs. I mean, it didn't have an always on display. Like, that's a big trade-off.

And now it really feels like the SC3 is something you could easily suggest to somebody. And it starts at $299 for the smaller size. And so... The price range is pretty wide because the Ultra is $800. It's pretty compelling. I think they're doing a good job. One of the themes coming out of this series this year, I think, is that low-end Apple hardware is better than it's ever been.

And that's just kind of across the board. But yeah, I agree with you. I mean, I don't think, I was talking to a friend about this. well, I'd like to see them make a round one. And I don't think that's really what I'd like. I mean, I think they've kind of iterated on the design a lot in small ways, but I think if you're going to put a computer on your wrist, it should have a square screen. It gives you more data.

I'm pretty happy with all the decisions they've made going in. And the iterative nature of the hardware, kind of like we talked about the Mac, is okay. It just gets a little better every year. Screens are getting a little thinner, a little stronger. They've really kind of fallen into a TikTok thing with this where they update the main watch one year and the other watches the alternate year. Like, I don't expect next year we'll get another ultra.

Maybe it'll be two years before we get one. But with the kind of where the hardware is at, I think that's fine. And I just think it's fine. That's okay. We don't need a new one every year.

Yeah. I mean, you just mentioned how long people use Macs. The Apple Watch is the same way. And the Apple Watch, you can tell, right? Because if you go back far enough, they really look pretty different if you add up the years. And as someone who works on a watchOS app that we dropped support for some older watches and have heard about it, people use Apple Watches a long time.

You know, their batteries are probably dying in the evenings or maybe they're charging midday. But people who really just have it for notifications and time, who aren't doing exercise tracking with it, who aren't doing these other things, maybe they're doing step counting. The Apple Watch, the longevity is pretty good there. And so I think it's fine that Apple seems to be falling into this TikTok cycle.

The system on a chip also isn't updated every year. There was a several-year stretch there where the main kind of Apple Watch series watches were on the same system on a chip. This year, they're all the same. Maybe that's true next year as well. And again, I think that's fine. I think Apple has adjusted the Apple Watch cadence to meet the market while also preserving things that really matter, right?

that band compatibility hasn't been broken in 10 years is shocking to me. I thought for sure at some point it would break. Now there's edge cases, right? Where like... You can't do a small band on a big watch in the series lineup, or you can do a big band on the Ultra, but it may look a little weird, but generally things work and look pretty okay. That's fantastic. That's Apple.

respecting their users. And, um, that's not a small thing. Like it's not a small thing. And so, you know, with the series 11, right. Where it got, um, or series 10, excuse me, where it got thinner. Right. I thought, well, this may be a time. This may finally be it where they break band capabilities. Nope. Still works. It's incredible. Yeah. My wife and I went out for, um, to take some Christmas pictures together. And so I put my red band on my watch. Yeah. I bought that, I don't know, Series 2.

You know, I was thinking about as I put it on, like, I wonder how many watches this band has been attached to. I don't wear it very often, but it's nice to get my red band out when I'm going to go out and be festive.

It's just nice. What about the software stack? One of the big changes they've made in the last year and a half is the smart stack. It does feel to me like they're kind of settling on... what the ideal UI for a RISC computer is. I think they are. I mean, they've definitely changed where some things are, right? And if you go back far enough, they had glances and all these kind of weird ideas.

But I feel like in the last couple of years, they've really nailed this down. I really think where watchOS is now makes the most sense of anything they've done. That was a couple years ago where they changed what some of the buttons do and changed some of the layout stuff. But I think in particular, two features that they brought to watchOS over the last couple of years.

are really fantastic. The first one being the smart stack. So you scroll up on your watch face and you get widgets. You can set what's there. You can set the order of them. They're fantastic. And optionally, you can have Apple suggest, that's where the smart name comes from, suggest widgets for you at opportune times. But then you also have live activities.

The combination of those things really make the watch feel more dynamic than it ever has. They succeed where the Siri watch face kind of failed all those years ago. And I think that's fantastic. Like out of all my devices, I want the watch to be the most proactive of like, Oh, Hey, your basketball team is playing. Let me show you the score without you having to do anything. That sort of stuff's great. And so I think that they've.

they've really gotten it in a place where it makes sense. And from the development side, right, there are still pain points with developing on watchOS, but that has also come such a long way where there are some... legitimately good watchOS apps out there. It's not a huge library, right? It is way smaller than the iPhone and iPad and the Mac, but there are some really good developers who focus on watchOS and that also makes it.

more valuable to users do you want to call out any of them some of the apps that you really yeah i mean i carrot weather is always the top of the list right there uh brian's watch os app is really really good I'm very proud of the Pedometer++ watch app. Spoiler, I work on it, but it's really good. And then I think another one that I think is really fantastic, like a whole class of them are...

Task managers, like GoodTask, OmniFocus, Todoist, being able to sort of manage your tasks, check them off, add them really quickly. That's also a really good use case where a lot of people are doing interesting things. I would add two honorable mentions is drafts for quick capture and whisper memos.

AI dictation, quick capture. Both of those apps do just a great job. I mean, I don't know that their UI is particularly good, but as a function that you can have on your wrist, especially with the ultra where you can just map them to the little orange button. They're great apps. I mean, one of the big deals about the watch is health features.

I feel like the innovation on the watch really is in sensors and sensor development. And when they get big breakthroughs on sensors, that's when the watch suddenly gets really interesting. I don't think we've really had that lately, but they are continuing to iterate on the sensors that they do have working. Yeah, and they're doing more interesting things with them, right? So things like vitals.

training load and sleep score. They're kind of the newest three health features. I guess you have hypertension and sleep apnea detection as well. They're all using mostly the data Apple's had for a while, but in new and more helpful ways. And when you were speaking earlier about projects with an Apple that take multiple years like this, this is it, right?

I do think the Apple Watch is best at just like always being on you in the background and alerting you if something changes, right? Like we've all heard stories. We've seen them and you and I have seen them in our inboxes of, I got an alert that.

my heart was doing something weird and i went to the emergency room and like it saved my life right or yeah um i'm using the rings to up my fitness goals over time like oh this is really powerful i do think Some of the newer things, I think training load and sleep score in particular aren't as well-rounded as they could be.

And as someone who works on a sleep tracking app, like I'm okay with that. Like sleep plus plus, I think there's a better job than sleep score at giving you a full picture of your sleep, but it's doing what Apple apps often do of like introducing. these concepts to people so if you get really into training load those built-in features will get you so far and then you may go look for a third-party app that gives you even more detail and um so while i'm not

super enthusiastic or in love with some of the more recent ones. I do think they're important. And I do think that someone who has never done any sleep tracking, if they just see a sleep score in the morning, hey, that's better than no information at all.

And then maybe down the road, they'll want even more. But this is iterative stuff. It is. I don't know. I think they've got all the low-hanging fruit on sensors. But I'm sure blood pressure is something they'd like to get. And what is it, blood glucose level? Yeah.

That's like the holy grail, I think, with an apple is glucose levels. And so that's going to, but I honestly think they're going to get there at some point, you know, that'll happen in the future. What about predictions for 2026? Where do you see it going? Yeah, I agree with you on the hardware front. Like, I think we'll see a mainline watch and the Ultra 4 and SE4 maybe another year out. Again, I think that's fine.

I think Series 12 will be a relatively minor update. I mean, they just redesigned it two years ago now with the 10. You know, we'll see material changes and that sort of stuff. But I think hardware-wise, it's going to be... pretty straightforward 2026 and i think on the software side unless there's a big sensor unlock you know just around the corner i think apple will continue to focus on what they've got

And I think any liquid glass changes that happen elsewhere will come to watchOS, obviously. So I don't expect fireworks in 2026, but I also don't really feel like I need them either. Yeah, I agree. I think it's business as usual. The watch is on a good track. Overall thoughts on the watch. I mean, it's a great product overall. It's very successful.

They kind of own the watch market at this point, which is not even the main focus of the company, which tells you something, right? I don't understand why they continue to fumble on watch faces. I know that I am probably a snowflake here. I generally prefer very readable analog watch faces, and I still find myself using the utility face, which was...

on the very first Apple Watch. They've had some good analog faces that they removed from the watch. They don't make an Apple Watch store, which seems to me like an obvious monetization and user satisfaction step. And I just I continue to be flummoxed by that. I don't understand why Apple is like not.

doing a better job of putting faces on the Apple watch. I agree. Um, I got one of the new pebbles, you know, they're, they're back from the dead and I've been playing with it. I was like, it's got a watch face store. Some of them are pretty bad. some of them have ip theft in them but dang if it isn't cool to like build your own or like customize a watch face and

Even within Apple's own system, I find myself sometimes frustrated with like, I really like this watch face, but I want this one component to be different. And even if they're not going to open it up to third parties, which I think they should.

even just giving users more control like like the california watch face was the best example of this so far it can look radically different depending on how you set it up but like true building block lego playground style build your own i think would be really nice and uh they're just not there and on the california face for example so many of those faces if you pick there's like two or three colors

where the hands actually are a contrasting color to the background. But the vast majority of the California faces, the hands are just a little outline, thin outline. And the hands actually match the color of the background. And like, if you're somebody who wears reading glasses and you glance at your watch and you literally can't see the hands, that's a bad design. And I don't know. I just.

Open it up to third parties. If you have to, go through and curate it so you don't put bad ones or IP theft in. You still could have one. I'd love to see David Smith. set loose on an apple watch face store because he does stuff like that with his existing apps yeah but he'd make great faces and i don't know i

I'm going to stop talking about it. I talk about it every year and nothing ever happens. The other thing you said, though, that I want to double down on is the lug connectors. Do not change them, Apple. I mean, we always hear that, oh, they're going to redesign the lug connector. I mean, they sell these expensive bands and the Apple bands are overpriced, but you can get good ones on Amazon. And I've got a collection of them. I love them.

If they updated the lug connection, that would really delay my decision to get a new Apple Watch, because why would I want to walk away from all those bands? And again, I'm probably an edge case that most people... Probably have one or two. I've got like 10. But I don't want to change them. So please keep that. It's a good design. Don't mess with it. Yeah, they really nailed that on day one.

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And thank you, 1Password, for all of your support of the MacPower users. That brings us to the Apple Vision Pro. We didn't forget about it. It's just here in the show. We are just coming off the first hardware update where they added the M5 and they added a new strap that actually replaces. the old straps. You use the Vision Pro a lot more than I do. Were you compelled to upgrade from an M2 to an M5? No.

No. I didn't think so. Well, I mean, one thing is they don't even let you turn in an M2 to get credit. Oh, that's awful. I wouldn't update it anyway. I'm sure it would be a very expensive purchase. From what I can tell, the difference is minimal for users. But what it is doing is putting a stake in the ground saying, yeah, we still care about this product. We're going to keep it up to date.

I think it would be really hard to go in and buy an M2 Vision Pro in like 2026 with an M2 chip in it. If you were thinking about getting one with an M5 chip in it, that makes a lot more sense. I'm glad they did the update, but it wasn't for upgraders. It was really just for people that want to get in the market. And it let Apple get out of the business of making M2s, which is not a minor thing, I'm sure. Yeah, I think...

In the update, the new strap was really the bigger deal. And you could buy one. Apple sent me one for review, but you can pick one up. And it... in a way, replicates what some people were doing where you had like two of the solo knit bands, one behind, one on top. It kind of takes that idea and I think makes it much more polished. And it is genuinely better.

I've been, I was very impressed with it and I think they, they got it right this time, but, but the thing is still heavy. It's still aluminum. It's still glass. Like none of those other things have changed. The new band helps. But I think fundamentally the problem with the hardware is the weight. And they've...

Apple's committed to these materials, but that doesn't mean they're always the right choice. And I think there's a reason that when you look around, basically every other headset is made with lighter material. I don't know. Yeah, you know, as somebody who uses it probably two, three times a week, I'm not sure the weight is that big of a problem.

And I just kind of feel like, how long do you really want to stay in the holodeck? Sure. When I do a session in it, there's two different things I do in it primarily. One is... I like to do dedicated writing sessions in it. It's very isolating to do writing, especially in the world of AI and stuff. It's kind of nice going somewhere where you just got a keyboard and a text screen. And for me, it's always Yosemite. So my brain is kind of wired.

When I go to Yosemite, that's where I do my writing. And it's a workflow I picked up when I first bought it, and I still use it all the time for that. And then the other thing I do is I watch movies and media in it because... I live with three women and they don't like a lot of the stuff I do. So I can go in there and just have a great time with this huge screen. And it's the best media consumption thing for me.

But none of those things is longer than three hours. And usually a writing session is about an hour and a half. A movie is how long it takes to watch a movie. So I don't feel like it's too bad. I did buy the second overhead strap. I did kind of the fake thing that we... all talked about when they first came out, and I use that all the time. That's my only kind of strap setup with it. So overall, the hardware, I think, is fine for what it is.

i think the screen technology holds up really well it still feels unreal to me when i get in there how sharp everything is um i don't use it as a secondary screen for my mac I have a really great screen on my Mac. When I want to work on my Mac, I just look at my Mac screen. However, there are people in Max Barkey Labs who travel for business, and they really rely on it for that when they're in a hotel room to give them a big screen.

That's absolutely useful if you've got a current Mac. So I think overall, the hardware's in good shape right now. Obviously, I think a version two of this product would teach us a lot about what Apple learned. And I don't view the M5 update as the version 2. I think that's just an update to the chip. I'd love to see a version 2 of it to see what they change. But I really don't have many complaints about the hardware.

Software, however. I'm saying in some ways, the software is way more interesting because all hardware products are vehicles for software, but man, that feels true with a Vision Pro. Yeah. And it's seen a lot of development. I mean, Vision OS 1 to 2 and then to 26, yes, that's hilarious. They have made changes, good changes.

But it also is really different than the other platforms, right? You've got window management and workspace issues. Like, you've got these different input methods. It is a distinctly different animal. Yeah. And they, the quality of life improvements to it since launch have been significant. Like even just sharing it with somebody is a lot easier.

There is, it does have more memory for where your windows are and you can sort apps. Like there were just a bunch of low hanging fruit when they released it and they picked a lot of that last couple of years. My biggest complaint. with software is third-party support and you know apple finally learned you know that if you build it they don't necessarily come

They've always had such high adoption with their products that the software they could take for granted. And they're not getting that with Vision Pro. Apps that we know and love are just not there. Because nobody uses the platform. Yeah. Just the other day, I saw this on Mastodon. I'll put it in the show notes. This was our friend, Marco Armit. who was not shipping a Vision Pro app. He was shipping a Vision Pro iPad compatibility app. Yeah. To the...

This is a quote. To the 30 people using Overcast iPad app on Vision OS, it should still work for you, but I have to focus my resources elsewhere. And a Vision OS tweak causing an obscure crash for my other users isn't worth it. Overcast is a huge app. I have it on good authority. He has more than 30 people using it on everything else. I mean, the same thing with Widgetsmith. Widgetsmith is absolutely huge. It is not big on the Vision Pro.

at all and we have a native vision os app like not not the ipad compatibility thing and that's we spoke about it on the developer roundtable uh in the section for members we talked about this with our guests and That's basically where everybody is with it. It's very hard at this point to justify the development cost for a Vision OS app.

And that makes the Vision Pro less good of a platform. It is a huge chicken and egg problem for Apple. And I don't know how they resolve it without... simply writing checks to developers and saying, we're going to help offset these costs for you. Do they care? I'm not even sure. Apple's own apps are not making it to Vision Pro. Reminder still is an iPad app when you go in Vision Pro. And I can tell you as somebody who likes the platform.

iPad apps are not good in Vision Pro. The reason only 30 people use Marco's app is because it's an iPad app. Now, I'm sure that... he'd get more usage if he made a vision pro app, but not enough to justify what it would cost. Not at all. I mean, I mean, I know the rough percentages of overcast and widget Smith and it being an iPad app or not doesn't really make a difference.

That is the biggest problem with the platform. It is. I like to write in Vision Pro, but I have to do it in Apple Notes. And I would rather do it in a different app, but none of the good ones are there. So that's what I do. The other penny that's going to drop on this as Siri gets better, Apple Silicon gets better.

the M2 hardware and whatever memory they've got in that that's already being used for everything else. I think Apple intelligence and AI are going to be poorly served on my vision pro software or hardware. Yep. as that becomes more of a thing but at this point i would just take them getting more software so i feel like the software situation there is a huge problem and that's something that they've got to they've got to solve i think you're right i think the

If they can't make the hardware cheap enough to get a bunch of users, then they're going to have to spend some money to get developers, if they care. If they care. Maybe this is just an experiment for them at this point, and they're not super into it.

um the you know maybe the idea from apple is we're going to get a bunch of corporations to buy this for internal training stuff and if users are dumb enough to buy it then they get it yeah i mean i don't think it's quite that far but i do also think that the Vision Pro is a device from the past. Like the iMac Pro was this weird machine that came out of the timeline where the Mac Pro was canceled.

And then they uncancelled the Mac Pro, but the iMac Pro still came out. It was a one and done. I think the world has changed since Apple started to work on the Vision Pro. And I think it was changing even when they released it a couple of years ago. towards things like meta ray bands where it is not a full computer that blocks your eyes it is something that is just giving you a few features here and there

Even what meta has shown off with like a simple display projected into the lens of the glasses, you're still seeing the world. It's not pass through. And I think that's where this is all headed. And so. a fully like pass through dependent. You can't actually see out of a vision pro you're seeing through the cameras and screens and they're very good. They're very fast. It's not something you're going to wear in the real world. And.

In that sense, the Vision Pro feels like it's on a timeline that may not be going anywhere. And maybe Apple's okay with that and they're just going to let it coast and see what happens in the future. Yeah, see, I would ideally like to see them pursue both paths because the immersion of Vision Pro I find very cool. And I think with a little more... improvement as things do get lighter and cheaper because the displays they're using are good enough and they're only going to get cheaper over time.

I still would like to be able to go into the holodeck. But I think they also need to pursue the augmented reality kind of thing that Meta is doing. And by all rumors, that's coming too. I think Apple should be pursuing both. It's a trillion-dollar company. They can walk and chew gum. And I would like to see this platform get more love. This year, we did see more custom content for it created than we did last year.

I still think the pace is too slow. I think they should make some sweetheart deals with some productivity app developers to get versions of their software that are reliable on the Vision Pro. I think they need to pursue making a cheaper one so more people can buy them. I mean, there's a lot of work to be done here. And this wasn't an easy win for them. But I hope they're not giving up on it because I think it's worth pursuing.

I think in terms of the next year, I think it's very much more of the same. I think the biggest news will be Apple having some new content here and there. You know, maybe there'll be an app that gets some headlines, but I don't think we're going to see, you know, a lighter, cheaper vision air. I don't think it's going to be radically different in a year.

I think all the, sadly, I think what's happening right now is Apple is trying to get into the augmented reality Ray-Ban analog, you know? And I think it's good they're making that product, but I think in their mind. They can only work on one at a time, and that's the focus. And I'd like to see them focus on this too.

I like the product. I think I'm the only person in our little podcast circle that actually uses it daily or weekly. It's fun to work there. It's a different context, and I'm a big fan of that. there's so much more I'd like to do with it. If it just got a little better and there was a little more software, I bought the pencil for it. Oh yeah. Yeah. How's that going? I honestly should have returned it. It's just like, it's useless. You know? I mean,

That's the Logitech Muse. Yeah. Yeah. The software support for it is really weak. And I mean, what I wanted to do is go in free form and make a board eight feet long and just draw on it. And I can't do that. Yeah. So. It's like I don't want to squirt ink around my room, digital ink. I just want the thing to act like a pen on a glass board. But I'm there for you, Apple. Just make it better, and I will be.

a big fan of it, but boy, isn't going slow. Okay. The last section of products for part one is Apple's audio products. So we're lumping home pods and AirPods together. I want to start with the HomePods. I said this recently on an episode, just how much I love the HomePod minis. I've got a bunch scattered around the house, got one in the garage. It's just so great to be able to airplay to something.

you know, kind of wherever you are and have Siri wherever you are and they're small and they're cheap and you can get them on sale usually. But I had a thought when putting this outline together because like I've got a bunch of the different colors of them. I thought, how fun would it be if the HomePod got new colors on a regular basis, like the Apple Watch bands or the iPhone cases or even the iPods back in the day? Every holiday season, there'd be new colors of the iPod Nano.

I think that'd be fun to be able to see Apple change this up more often. But overall, I'm a big fan of these things. Yeah. I mean, I have the iPods. I'm sorry, the HomePods. I'm actually more invested in the big ones. And I've still got three HomePod ones that are going strong. How is that possible? Yeah. A lot of them died. A lot of them had failures. I had one die. Yeah, I don't know. I hope that doesn't happen to me. But just like the other day, we were putting up the tree.

We had our playlist blasting throughout the house, and it's just like it's so nice to open your phone and just deliver music anywhere you want. I still think it's a good product idea. I hope that they can get the price down. Yeah. On the home pod too. Yeah. The next year we're supposed to get release of this new platform. That's like an iPad and a home pod, having a baby together and see what happens. I guess I'm getting ahead of myself, but.

HomePod may get some evolution next year, too. It may. And as we're recording this, we're coming off the AirPods Pro 3 launch, which... At least in our circles and even some reviews kind of beyond our circles, people, some people don't love the fit. I was one of those people and ended up returning them. And I'm sticking with my AirPods Pro 2 for now, which makes me a little nervous. You know, what happens when I can't, you know, they croak. But I don't know how widespread that feedback was.

And, you know, some people thought, well, it was the tips because they had some foam in the tips. And that was definitely part of it for me. Also, the way it fit in my ear, the front part of the plastic touched my ear, and that wasn't true on the twos. AirPods are very, very personal, right? And anytime they make a change...

Physically, it's going to rule some people out. And that's just rough when it's you. Yeah, you have very particular ears, Stephen. I do. And some people couldn't wear the twos but love the threes, right? It goes both ways. But where I am with it, it's like it's a little bit of a mixed bag, but they sound incredible. I am so impressed with Apple's health initiatives around hearing and hearing health and safety and protection.

As someone who values that, I'm very happy with it. So I think overall, things are really good. And I think even the AirPods 4, which came out a while back, there's two versions. There's the regular and the ones with active noise cancellation. There's a $50 difference. I think the confusion there was a nerd problem in hindsight. And I think most people understand that there's two versions of these things. Like, I think it's fine.

And I see them. You see AirPods everywhere. I mean, not just traveling. You know, sometimes when you travel, it's always a good time to see what laptops people use. But in the grocery store, out in the real world, you see AirPods everywhere.

I like the AirPods Pro 3. I think they sound better and they fit me okay. So I kept mine. One cool thing I did, I 3D printed a charger for it. But this is the cool part. I didn't realize, but if you take an Apple MagSafe charger, you can charge your AirPods on. Everybody knew that. But with the latest edition AirPods Pro 3. The magnet is so strong that if you turn it upside down, they will hang off of it. So I 3D printed a MagSafe holder that holds it facing down.

and then I sticky taped it to the back of my monitor. So I just slide the AirPod in under the monitor, and it magnetically sticks, and I hear the little ding that it's charging. And then when I want to get them, I just reach under and just pull it out. I'm very happy with this print. That's cool. Yeah. Anyway, that being said, AirPods in good shape. AirPods.

max what about airpods max man yeah what about i mean they got the most minor of updates yeah i think they are pretty expensive for what they are yeah i know people who love them who absolutely love them, but I don't think they're compelling sort of in a mass market sense. They're expensive. Some people find them heavy, including me. I would like to see Apple take another swing at this.

Because I don't think where they are now is great. Yeah. I mean, obviously this product has just been ignored. I mean, you know. Just kind of like the Vision Pro. It feels like it's getting the minimal support, and it's still around on live support. The one product I feel like coming this year that's going to be interesting.

I guess we're calling it the HomePad. I don't know what Apple will call it, but it's like a HomePod and an iPad stuck on it. I think the big use case for it is like, put it in the kitchen, you know, and then you've got... Like a screen you can watch your cooking video on and a speaker attached. And we've been hearing about it for a long time, but it really sounds like we're going to get it in 2026. So maybe next year we'll have another product in this line to talk about. Yeah.

I think that's really a compelling thing. And I'm very interested in seeing what, what Apple, what Apple does with it. Yeah. I, in terms of overall thoughts, I feel like. You know, the AirPods are just a great product. And the Home, what is it, the HomePod is an okay product. I know you like the minis.

I feel like the bigger speaker should be cheaper and more reliable. And I feel like that one needs help. But man, I mean, whether you want the pros or the standard ones, I think it's just one of Apple's best products. Well. I think we've done it. Sorry. We didn't know how long we were going to get into it, but we took the Mac on pretty seriously today. We did. And we'll be back next week with the rest of the platform. So we've got...

The iPhone, Apple TV, iCloud, other services, and then something we're calling ecosystem, sort of a broader view. So stay tuned for that. Yeah. We are the Mac Power. You can find us at relay.fm slash MPU. Go there for feedback and membership. Thank you to our sponsors, Devon Think, KRCS, and 1Password. If you are a More Power User subscriber, stick around. We're going to be talking about some changes that Stephen is contemplating. We'll see you next time.