The Penguin

Mac. I had a great open for the show that you poop pooed. So last second, I'm going to ask you what do you want to do to start the show?

Uh? Goo, I would like you to tell me what you're rushmore and we'll get back to this in the episode.

One second, what is a mount Rushmore?

So, if you're new to the program, here, a mount Rushmore is the four nicest looking people on the planet. And then once you determine that, every year, you carve it into a mountain.

Did you just come up with that?

Yeah? Just made that up. Okay, So if you're new to that, people's hottest person on the planet every four years gets put up there. I like that, Goo, You're Mount Rushmore of comic book television shows. Now take a breather, think about it for a little bit. I'll give you mine, and then maybe you can jump back into here with.

Your live action or animated.

It's up to you. I would say, give me including animated.

So I already have three off the top of my mind, and yes they are all Batman, but Batman the animated series.

Oh I guess you'll go first.

Yeh, Batman Beyond the Harley Quinn Show and then X Men ninety seven done.

Okay, those are your four. I would go twenty nineteen's Watchmen on HBO.

That's a great one.

Yeah, I think Loki season one is on there. X Men ninety seven is on there, and then I would probably go Batman the Animated series for my fourth. And I ask you that, gu because today we are discussing possibly an entry into that Mount rushmore so I think it's relevant.

Hashtag Kim Kardashian, can you come back to me real quick?

Cool? You got an addend amendment on yours?

Yeah, Daredevil belongs on there, Loki does WandaVision. How many can I put on there?

If you notice in the notes here I said, I'm I was considering maybe Jess Jones season one, and then I said, Aku, maybe Daredevil.

For Daredevil for me is definitely on there.

So if you if you had to go too and two two animated, two live action, what's you're four?

So it's Batman the Animated series. I would take X Men ninety seven over the original, and then we go Daredevil. And here's the issue that we run into is that is the sum of Loki both season one and two better than the one season of one division for me.

Here we go. Actually, I almost forgot this even though I wrote it down. Watchman twenty nineteen.

Oh, Watchmen as well, and the Boys, the Boys, Oh, the Boys. Okay, so just throw the Marvel stuff off. I'll keep Daredevil, the Boys and then the two animated series.

Okay. Well, let's see if our approach approaching conversation has anything to do with the top four here.

Oh wait, oh this show here. I like the penguin as well. Let's put that at the top and slid everything else down.

Bang one good, three yeah, jos three, King of Queen mall Street.

Entertained.

I'm go and I'm Mac.

What a great open by you. When's the last time you've actually done anything?

Long time?

I know because I was actually I was thinking about it earlier. I'm like pre show wise, Mac generally does seventy five percent of the work. You're a very good pre show. You do a lot of the notes. It gets prepared. I usually do the open and Mac sack and then anything post. Plus, I bring my award winning personality to this program. That's people. People love me. People love my opinions on witches. They love how I'm out there and putting myself out there. I'm never on the fence about anything.

I think you've got to create a shirt that says witches get stitches.

That's a good one, it's not bad. But I also want to want to run into a real witch and then have them put a put a spell on me or any Yeah, I wouldn't.

Want that type of situation.

That is not witchcraft. That is what is it called the pincushion.

With the Yeah, i'd tell you that's witchcraft.

I thought it like New Orleans. What is that called? It's like the bay you?

Yeah? Did they do a whole season of American horror story about witches of the Bayou?

Didn't they?

Yeah?

I don't know. It's I'm not going to google. I don't want to google.

It's called the Beignets.

Beignets are delicious.

Beignets are delicious.

All right, that's our show, Okay.

Folks, Today we are discussing what ign dot com gave a five out a ten television show that is The Penguin. The Penguin is a TV M, a gangster tragedy crime in drama, eight episodes. Totally I did. I forgot to get the minutes there, but they were roughly our episodes. Finale was a little longer, so we probably had about eight hours of programming, maybe a little less. You take the credits in the in the and whatnot out uh go on Roddy T's five percent from the critics, ninety

Is in seventy two really high though.

Seventy two is pretty good for sure, but for example, twenty nineteen is Watchmen eighty five.

So I would also I think that Watchmen, while I like the Penguin better, I would say because I love these characters, I love Batman, and I love the idea of doing more stuff with characters like this on HBO, Watchmen probably is a better show.

Well, and it's sort of it was set up to be that way too, right, because this is a show in between two movies, whereas Watchmen was its own thing, and so it's more satisfying.

It's David s.

Pumpkins gained, and so I guess it's maybe a little unfair to the penguin. But also, when you're talking about all time great shows, these are the types of hairs

I'm not sure if I would put it on my rush more, but it is right there.

I think it's like firmly a tier below for me. I just don't think it hit the high high.

Is that a show that we're going to do soon Comic book tears, Comic book show tears earber. Maybe we do owe the people at least one tiering by the end of the year. They're pretty upset about Octierbers.

That's fair. And if you're tuning into this program and have no idea what this show is attached to. This was I guess what's it called? When it's like, God, really I should know the word, and I'm forgetting like an attachment to something post something not a preamble but something like that, but post. You know, you know what I'm talking about. This is an add on to The Batman, which came out.

It's a sequel series.

It's a yeah, came out in twenty twenty two. I believe it was The Batman, and this show was never really meant to be when that movie came about, and then as they were developing this world, this Gotham, they sort of stumbled into this and this ended up being something that I think was certainly a worthwhile endeavor and broadened the universe and I think something they're gonna continue to do and also serves as like an appetizer and a lead into the second movie.

Yeahp. But the one thing that I'm not a huge fan of is it took us two years to get this show. It's gonna take us two more years to get the Batman movie. I hope that they're able to not rush, but at least like get into the next show a little bit quicker than the amount of space between the Batman and the Penguin.

I agree the Batman two should have been this year. The Penguin should have been last year. Give me one a year and that would would be more appealing, I think for.

Me, even if it's every three years. Actually yeah, because they're gonna start shooting The Batman two in twenty twenty five. So even if there's three years between the movies and then somewhere nestled in between is a television show.

Cool, Well that's what we got here. I would like that condensed a little bit more.

No, because The Batman Too isn't gonna come out until twenty twenty six, right, Oh.

Yeah, you're right, you're right correct. As I was gu the creator slash showrunner of this show is Lauren la front I think it's just Lefrank, but I like saying Lafran. You would know her as a writer on the show Chuck, which I've ever seen an episode of, but was somewhat popular. She was also a writer on Agents of Shield and something called Impulse that has decent grades. I don't know what her connection was to this universe or to Matt Reeves, but for someone that had never been a showrunner, or

I also think for having eight episodes, like that's a real good number of episodes. They don't really waste any time, and everything on the show has a purpose.

Yeah, he will get to that in a few but like borometer wise, you are pretty well gripped. Yeah, most of these eight hours. It wasn't too many wasted moments in here, if any. So they did a wonderful job. Synopsis of The Penguin, following the events of the Batman Oz Cobb aka the Penguin makes a play to seize the reigns of the crime world in Gotham. Pretty good.

Yeah, pretty good. It's pretty concise.

It doesn't mention two of the other main characters, but it's good enough to sell you right.

Yes, I mean Gotham is I would say there's four main characters. Gotham is one of them.

Okay, no, that's fair that's definitely fair go. This show stars Colin Farrell as Oz Cobb Slash the Penguin, of course, reprising his role from The Batman, Kristin Miliati as Sophia fl Cone aka Sophia Gigante. And before we get any further, this was her show as good as Colin fara and Ferrell is is Oz Cobb. You almost not cares is not what I'm meaning. But she is so good she becomes the like the eye of the storm, the center of the show here.

Yeah. So if they do and they are gonna do another show with another villain of Batman, another Rogues Gallery character, like I'm so curious, like not who they choose for that, but who they shoehorn in there as the secondary character that we're gonna fall in love with.

Yeah, it's gonna be hard to live up to Kristin Miliati, that's for sure. Renzie Felise plays Victor Aguilar aka Vic, and the showrunner Lafrant describes Vic as the heartbeat of this show. I think that's pretty apt to. I think he is more the common man. We're more going through it the way he is.

Yeah, and a lot of outlets and I agree with this. They describe his character as the Penguins Robin.

Yep, yeah, that's I think that's kind of dumb down. But that's good enough. That's good enough. I think Dardrew O'Connell as Francis Cobb Ozit's mother Carmin and Jogo as Eve Carlo the swearter, love interest slash friend of a Yeah, theo Rossi is doctor Julian Rush, which will have a little thing on him and spoilers. Clancy Brown as Salvatore Maroney who was named in The Batman, but we didn't see him on screen. The one thing I'll say is Clancy Brown is almost always a little too much for me.

What are you doing Sophia?

And then we get a couple couple scenes in here with Jamie Laws and Asbella real who is the mayor elect as we've seen at the end of the batmano Laura lefranc again the show I'm gonna keep saying her name as often as I can describes this show primarily as a tragedy. I know there are other themes in whatnot that are picked up in this, but it's hard not to agree with therk because this really is by the end of it, this show really is a tragedy everything.

So, first off, all oz Ever wants on this show is validation, and that is from everybody, and he will say anything to anybody to get what he wants. And he almost just keeps on making up his own rules for himself as he goes where by the end of it, yes he gets what he wants, but he doesn't. It's

Best part about this show, what makes this show so fucking awesome is the dichotomy between Oz and Sophia and where they're at. Certain points are at the same level.

It's also the great rags to riches story where it's almost like when a poor person comes and like wins the lottery and then they just buy a bunch of shit and like rich people are like, oh, this is still really like Sophia calls everything in his apartment tacky and trashy and stuff. But then when he has like people that aren't from high society, they're like, oh, this is really nice stuff.

Uh good. I mentioned at the top, and we've this has been a top conversations surrounding this series. When this series was first conceived, Matt Reeves began thinking about this series during post production of the first movie. The original plan once he was getting going with this Penguin stuff was to have the story that we saw play out over these eight episodes essentially be the first act of the sequel. But he didn't really know how to put

And yes, is this similar? Is this character similar, say to a Tony soprano? Sure? Sure, everything is similar to everything nowadays.

Yeah, and when you're talking gangster crime, mob movies, you're never gonna have a new idea. It's just not possible. So you know, I guess there's appropriate critiques there. But having that set with the backdrop of Gotham and in a Batman universe, obviously it plays it up a little bit more gout before we get too deep into things,

Do they celebrate Thanksgiving on this show? Did they?

It's a great question. I didn't see a Thanksgiving episode in there, but some of the timelines and some of the shit we see, there's no way could have happened over a week or two weeks and had to been a few if not a month or two, So that's pretty unclear. I think we'll get a more stable timeline once we get into the second movie. Maybe we're like

Of the entire Falcone family we obviously meet Carmine in the battle.

Yeah right, obviously Oz is tied in with them anyways. But why this becomes an odds and fl Cone story is because in the first fifteen minutes of the show, and it's what sort of ropes she in, Oz kills Sophia's brother Alister.

Yeah, and it's all because, and this is what I love about it, he made fun of him, Yeah, to a t.

It's really what Oz is and what Oz has been fighting against his whole life, this idea that he's not good enough. Yes, and when he gets belittled by Alberto, he snaps, And that's that little character trait that really defines who Oz is.

I also love the way he walks.

Yeah, it's perfect. I don't I don't know how how many different walks he tried. The way Carl Farrell does it is perfect.

I think it was the end or the beginning of episode five they show him walking away from a car and it's like really exaggerated and like, that is a fucking penguin. It's great, it's a penguin. This also has a lot to do with class warfare as well.

Yeah, which I think also is like pretty well tied into like mob stories, people trying to be made men or work their way up the ladder. That has a lot to do with class warfare, and especially with the fallout from the Batman, how the shittier the poor areas of town aren't getting attention and the rich areas.

Are so two things there. Number one, they start a lot of scenes by showing off the bridge that separates the rich and the poor and Gotham, and then they also show a lot of starting with like a skyline and then going down like four or five levels to really show how low the penguin is here.

Yeah, you know what, The bridge shots and things like that always remind me of Yeah, I don't know if if you remember this or know anything about Rio de Janeiro, but this was especially underlined when they held the Olympics there or World Cup something like that. Rio is pretty famously known for literally just sectioning off the poor area with a gigantic wall, so thirty feet away, rich Highway

I also think so. I think Christopher Nolan did a pretty good job of it. But this show and the movie has done the best job of building out like a rich like you understand Gotham.

I think already one movie's worth. And of course the show Gotham is more central to this story than it ever I know, I'm summarizing what you're saying, is more central to this story in this universe than it ever was in Nolan's.

Yeah, well, I think Nolan did a pretty good job. I think Burton didn't really focus on it, Schumacher, I can't even think back to anything Gotham wise besides, like the motorcycle races and Coolio in the streets. The animated series did a pretty good job as well too, But oh up, credit where credit is due the first Joker movie does a pretty good job as well.

Agreed, I'll agree with you on that for sure. Definitely.

I guess that's the end of the podcast. We gave a compliment to Joker. Let's get to the I've nonagone here, Mac and fun factor. There is a lot of I think, the backstabbing on this show because to sum up the penguin in one word is weasel. He is a weasel. You can't trust. It's just called weasel. You can't trust a word he is saying to anybody.

The double talk. He's always whatever he says is never the truth.

He's a true hype man. He's trying to hype everybody up, but he doesn't believe any of it, or maybe he does and he just goes back on it.

He's constantly cupping the balls.

That's all he's doing.

Good to that point, this show has a lot of fun with come up and revenge. Like that's the fun factor in this show. The anticipation of someone you fucking hate getting theirs. That's a lot of what drives the fun behind this show.

Satisfactor and I was extremely satisfied with not only how the show ended, but the entire eight episode run.

I think everything surrounding Sophia for eighty percent of this season is incredibly satisfying. Watching her become Sophia Jigante is great. I do feel like the last couple of episodes did not satisfy me enough when it came to the Oz stuff or the overarching Gotham stuff number one, because it was pretty obvious where they were going and number two, which we'll get in more so in spoilers. There is a glaring, glaring hole in all.

Of this, so I think that maybe you aren't adding in, Like I think the relationship with his mother is extremely satisfying and how this character is gonna be. And I also think that moving forward in the next movie or when he shows up again, he's gonna be a completely different character. He's not gonna be as like, you know, low level, uh, low class. He's gonna be a little bit He's gonna fit in more with society.

Gou, I hear you, And I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying all this stuff with his mother was established really early, and you had a pretty good idea of where that was gonna end up. So by the end, all I know.

Not with her feelings on the boy.

Ah, you knew that was gonna crack at some point, you knew that was coming.

No, And then also how he responds to it is the best.

Yeah. I I to me like that was sort of telegraphed. But that's if if it worked better for you, that's fine.

I'm not gonna say it shouldn't you calm me, stupid. I think we should both start acting like the penguin moving forward is that whenever you perceive like you're being slighted in the littlest just fucking attack the other person.

Just shoot the other person.

By the way, and this has nothing to do with the penguin. I was watching an interview with Steve Carell earlier and someone asked him about the improv scene on the office where he kept on pulling out a gun, and he said that when I was at Second City, there was someone that always did that and we thought it was the funniest thing, and the teacher one day had to ask him for all of his guns.

The teacher in that scenes ken Jong, right, I believe so, or he's in the class. That's so good. Michael Scarrn.

Barometer. I was not bored.

No, I it is. My gripes with this show really don't have anything to do with Barometer Halloween.

Will this show wanne over time? I don't know how much of a rewatchable show this will be, maybe going back to pick up on some of the Sofia stuff, because I think that she's gonna play a bigger role moving forward too much Like when I was watching this, I had to go back and rewatch The Batman once again. So maybe it's just when something new comes out, it's just picking up more of these breadcrumbs as they're leaving behind.

Yeah, I don't know if there's gonna be much rewatchability here. And part of that goes into my overarching critique is that it does lack this satisfying conclusion or this big pants tent moment like that was satisfying that it sort of needed at the end. It doesn't make the show like it doesn't really diminish the show because it had to fit in a window. But again, when you're looking for something to go back and rewatch, there's not a ton here.

O quater World. Is this television show better than the nineteen ninety five hit movie, Yes, it was profitable. Water World indeed it is, although it is dealing with a flood.

Is water World in the DCU, Well.

I know that Aquaman is very similar. That's true, Max credit Union. Who are you giving credit.

To so obviously Kristin Miliatti, Christine Milliod. I still don't know how I've heard it both ways. That's a podcast. It's a good one, overarching though it and it echoes the Miliati stuff. Whoever is in charge of casting in this universe and especially for this show nailed it, fucking crushed it. Every character, even down to characters when they saw a couple times during the season, were so good and then the big players all absolutely demolished it. The casting amazing.

Who is the mobster that Oz looks up to? What's his name? The guy's got a real sour puss.

In the Falcone family.

No, no, when he's a kid, Rex you're talking about? Yes, Rex, thank you? So like plemenade wise, I think he'd be someone that would be a candidate. But like you're talking about, like the casting and this, like even I thought he was great in the episodes that we go and you picked up on like why someone like Oz would idolize this person and then want to be this person.

Yeah, it had a little bit of a broxtail to it. Yeah, now as you can't leave like that moment was something that really resonated with Oz.

I'll give him plemonade, because when life gives you plemons, you make plemonade. We only saw him for roughly He was in two ish episodes, and he wasn't like a big character in those episodes, but I know you have here, dear Day O'Connor, who plays Deirdre.

Deirdre O'Connell really nailed that. Deirdre O'Connell is Francis Cobb, the mother fuck that. I'd say the main three had too much screen time to really do Plemonade. And she was probably in five or six of these episodes, but she's only in a few scenes per episode. She did an incredible job. And there's also a whole like, you know, mental things she's got going on, some sort of dementia type of situation, and I thought she did a really good job conveying that.

The writing on that as well is very good and the storytelling all that. I forget which episode it's the one where Vick is watching her and you see all the post it notes around to remind her to do stuff.

And she would end scenes. She would go from clear all their alert and oriented to jumping back. She'd have these episodes. It's a very specific kind of dementia that they depicted in this I forget what it's called, but I thought it was really good and the actress did an amazing job.

Oh also give credit too, because I hated this character and I'm like, this feels like a real person. That kid squid, Yes, yeah, I was like, oh fucking blow this guy's head.

Yeah yeah, yes, please.

Pants ten City, Excite Mike Mania. What on this show got you going?

Pretty clearly, Sophia tying people up was all I ever needed her yellow dress in That was that episode four when the come up and sappens for the Falcons. That was probably the high point of the season. Great moment for the character, But I must admit this show did lack a true standout moment, true stand up scene, and I think that's maybe what we'll keep it from being talked about as one of the all time greats.

I think it was Pete Blackburn from the What Chaos podcast that said he would love for Kristin Miliatti to put out a cigarette on him.

Couldn't agree more. I'm pretty sure. I retweeted that.

I think the end of episode four, where she gets her revenge is pretty good.

Awesome, Yes, great, Yeah.

For those of you tarty to the Mac and Goop party, we rate everything on a forty hot dog rating system.

Mac.

First off, big ups to everyone involved on this show for having a show, a Gotham show with no Batman, a Batman show with no Batman, and still being wildly entertaining, gripping, great characters, taking its time, and not to take jabs at other people, but like, take note, Sony Verse, take note.

Joker, It's possible to do these things.

It's possible to do these things. So that's the big thing. Yea.

All that said, we'll get into Yeah, we'll talk that complicate, it does.

But Colin Ferrell's amazing in this. I think he is such a good penguin. And yes, it does come off a little bit more as like a joisy guy that's coming, and but I think it works well for this character, especially when we think of like where Gotham might be in America. I think his mother is amazing in this. Chris and Miliatti steals the show. The episodes that are dedicated entirely to her, you'd be saying, wait a second, this is in the Batman universe and it's called the Penguin.

That's that's for sure.

Thirty seven hot.

Dogs, Okay, Yeah, I'm in the same range as you. Gou. Like you said, the acting fantastic. The world they build or build out underneath this world, the lower levels of Gotham is great and really is going to help the movies going forward and help you know, Oz become this Penguin villain going forward. I think, though, the two biggest things that bother me here is number one, the thing hanging over this whole Gotham that we'll expand upon. But the Batman stuff, the more you think about it, the

I texted you telling you all this, and you're like, you're making too big of a deal out of this, And I don't want a nitpick. I think this is a wonderful show. It is, but when you're in Gotham and you have streets exploding, whole city blocks, something's got to give.

Yep. And it wasn't even the end of the season, so he had plenty of time to pop up. He doesn't even need to show up. You just need a batsy clock. Yes, couldn't agree more so. I think that puts a damper on the whole thing overall. And that lack of like standout scene in the second half of the show I think hurts it a little bit. And I also think the show sort of became a victim

No, where she ends up is such a good place, though I agree.

I'm not talking about that. I'm saying because her character became so great, I cared less about Oz and where he ends up.

Yeah, but you also so if you want.

To I'm not. I'm all I'm saying is she is so good. It sort of took away from the stuff because I cared less about him.

But if they went into this saying we want to tell this sofiafl Cone story, but they can't go to HBO and be like, hey, we have this Sophia fl cones. I agree, you needed at least to have the penguin who is a recognizable character. I'm not Batman at.

Least as Don't get me wrong, I'm mora killed the show for me. It just hurt it a little bit, a little bit so good. I think I'm at thirty six hot dogs. Okay, I think it's just a tear below greatness, really really fucking good. Borderline loved it, loved most of the show most of the season, like episodes three, four, five, six were great, that the middle part of the season was great. I just have a hard time. And this

Can I just mentioned one thing in spoilers So we've already mentioned a couple of times here that the show just it needed not even like, say, if the penguin thinks too highly of himself that he'll be caught by Batman. Maybe he's and he's already run into Batman, but say it if he thinks so highly of himself that he's like, Okay, I'm not gonna get caught. I don't even need to think about him, his cronies, the people working underneath Sophia,

It was not apparent, and to your credit, two weeks ago you texted me about this whole Batman plot hole in this whole series. I started to think about it a little bit, started seeing it, but more online. I didn't rewatch The Batman until after I had finished the season.

It just I'm mentioned.

Isn't in there in those last couple episodes. Having it come up at the very end made no sense, and it just bothered me because it was like, Okay, they just threw it in there to please the fans. The bat signal should have come up weeks before that, way before that, and especially in episode seven when a whole fucking city block gets blown up. That that was it, right now?

That was That was the breaking point for me, because they had done a very good job establishing that Oz was really good at working underneath everything and keeping everything as quiet as possible, but he's also someone that wants the spotlight and wants people to know what he's doing, So he might be someone that also wants Batman to know what he's doing too. Yeah, even in the movie he mentions the Batman, you know my reputation, right, and he's proud of it.

The fact that Oz is at once even just shuddered by the fact that the bat that man might appear is bothersome when you rewatch the movie or remember what.

Happened in the opening scene of the movie, not like the Riddler stuff for him investigating. When they show the lower level goons doing crimes, they're all looking over their shoulders because Batman's been doing it for a year and he's been beating the piss out of people.

It's really bothersome. And also Gordon not popping up is bothersome, especially when he's tied into the mob stuff. That's a secondary thing to Batman.

Are we being poopy pants fan boys right now? No?

No, No, it's a big thing. It's a big thing. And again we scored the show still super high. But it is a big thing hanging over this show because like all you had to do was even have the bat signal in the background. It may pretend like he was doing something else. There was bigger fish to fry at the time, but they don't mention him. It's not in the back and just throwing it there at the end just to like, huh, tolgays here. That pissed me off.

There was another Easter egg as well, not even an Easter egg, but like something that they should have mentioned in there is when so Fia was learning about the women that her father killed. Yeah, they should have had Selina Kyle's mother in there as a I hint toward the letter that she gets at the end of the show.

Yeah, and then there's also this whole thing where the police are investigating the Falcone deaths, this big thing you probably would have called in Gordon and or Batman there, that's part of it. I don't know, it's just I don't it doesn't make sense secondary to that go And of course Reeves this in lefranc have been asked these questions. I think it's more a Reeve's question than is Lefron, because she was just given a task to make this

Outside of the well being of his mother. He had no fear in this show, right, right, and.

He's clearly fearful of the Batman in the movie. So it's just those two things, those two ideas can't coexist.

Okay, we're really sorry about that. This is a really good show. It's a very good show.

Very good. Let's get to the finale.

Good Okay.

We find out at the beginning of this finale that Francis Oz's mom was going to have her own son Oz killed by Rex once she figured out he was responsible for her two other sons death. That's pretty fucking dark.

Yeah, really, And I love how obsessed with his mother they made him in this show.

And it's a real Oedipus complex.

It is, and all he wants. His goal the entire time we learn of it, I think at the end of episode seven, is to put his mother in the highest building in Gotham. We're she can look over the city, and it's one of those you finally have time, you can read all the books, but your glasses break. She is no longer able to she's no longer able to move, she's she had a stroke. She's not really there, and he's not She's not able to enjoy it.

What he worked for.

Oz is able to put her in the highest room in Gotham, where she's able to look out, but she's not able to enjoy it.

But because I actually that go ahead, that's he is purposefully putting her through that torture because of what she says to him in this finale episode.

I don't think so. I think that he's I think he's doing it because no, but he always wanted to get her approval and he always wanted her love. And he's like, this is what I summis to you, and this is what I promised you, and you pretty much said that if I do this, you're gonna love me. And while she wasn't able to talk, he had the prostitute dressed as his mother.

Yeah and bizarre, but to that point, I think part of that why he's showing her and keeping her alive. There, mom, I did it. But now he's bragging about it because she also doubted him, which is what he finds out in this episode. Now he's sticking it to her. He's not he's not show.

She did not doubt him. She wanted him dead. She fucking hates him.

She said that, yeah, but didn't believe in him, and that is revealed in this episode.

That's pretty me beyond doubt and not believing she wanted him dead.

I know, but Oz doesn't find that out until this episode. So I think that that culmination her on the hospital bed on the eighty seventh floor, I think is him his last laugh to her, him sticking it to her. I do like that that club that they show Monroe's Club in the past and the present, that plays a big role on this That was a nice little setting. I am so so so glad that Sophia fal Cone didn't get killed. Where she ends up back in Arkham is so much better and so much worse for her character.

I could have used a better Easter Egg at Arkham, like a character than Magpie.

Sure, I don't even know who that is, but.

You know what, maybe a young doctor named Harley and Quinzel.

Well, I do think there is some some people are a little over the joker Harley Quinn thing. So I'm glad.

I'm saying more like, she's not Harley Quinn yet, she's just the doctor there.

Yeah, sure, sure. We get a couple of snippets here of Bella Reale. You know, they're at the courthouse or whatever, at the whatever, which is nice because you know she has a decent relationship with Bruce in the movie. So that'll I'll come back to Goose Point. Oz thinks he's made out like a bandit in this finale, comes to find out his mom has begun a carrot. She's a vegetable. She's not She's not able to really enjoy anything in

And she made a point either episode one or two being like, don't let me get to this point. Kill me.

Yeah, and this all plays in that's that was in you know what I'm I'm thinking about sort of stumbling upon now when I think about it in my head. Ultimately this ruins the series of Dexter. But in Dexter Final ruins Dexter when Julie Ben's gets killed. That was the last tether Dexter had to being a human being in this The last tether that Oz had was his mother and the well being of his mother. And what happens in the first scene after he finds out his

The first thing he says is you're like family to me, and then he Moid is him.

Well, that's what Oz is realizing.

He can't have family, That's what he realized.

Yeah, he realizes Vic is a weakness for him, the way his mother was someone that could hold him back. And the extra thing there is I think also Oz is a little worried that Vic is too similar to him and eventually Vic might try to overthrow him the way Oz did with all the people of authority in his life. So it was twofold. There a very very visceral scene and really shows you he becomes the penguin in this moment. Right, he was Oz and now he's the penguin.

He starts going.

And then he fucking robs him afterwards.

That was the best part of it, though brutal. Thanks for the twenty bucks, kid, I can go get some slush puppies.

We see Sophia back in Arkham and what's his face? Doctor Julian Rush comes in with a letter addressed to her from her half sister, and go call me a fucking moron. I completely forgot It's a major part of the Batman and I hadn't rewatched it.

I know that you don't like listening to me, but I mentioned it on a news dump roughly four weeks ago.

Yeah, I wasn't paying attention. I completely forgot that her half sister is Selena Kyle. So Selena Kyle shoots her a telegram at Arkham, and I guess this is a pretty decent storyline in the comics, so they're gonna obviously play with this. I would be surprised if Selena doesn't, like, maybe try to break Sophia out of Arkham or something like that. That'd be kind of interesting to see going forward.

Maybe there is a lawyer that can help them, maybe a da Maybe there is a RV.

Dent hey, hey, And again, compare these or contrasting these two characters as we talked about Oz is seeking the way that people look at Sophia in this world the hangman. Oz is seeking that and Sophia is trying to get away from it. It's a great back and forth. And then secondary to that, Oz has learned he wants no family. But by the end of this Sophia is like comforted

Really like that how at the end of episode four when she murders her whole family and she embraces being the hangman and she stops wearing stuff around her neck and then you have like the the little things around her neck. She's not afraid to show him off anymore because if that's what people want, that's what she'll give them.

And I also like like because in that scene, what she's realizing is they aren't her family that might be by blood, and that's why she goes by Jigante after that. They weren't her family members, they just happened to be related to her, So that that's why that episode was the best episode of the season, and that's why Sophia

In the comments, I wanted him to pick up an umbrella to shoot someone. And then it opens and there's a carousel on there and he says, ah, a trick umbrella.

We get to the final scene with him and Eve and him and his mother. Eve is wearing his mother's dress. It's a very bizarre scene speaks to how insane Oz is, and again Oz gets everything he wants wants ultimately, but it's a tragic end because he works so hard to get where he has and now his mom can't even reap the benefits of it. All his loved ones are dead ye and it's just him and Eve has this quote, nothing's standing in your way now, and then we get the bat signal.

Right, And he also something that he always wanted was that he wanted to be like Rex, and he wanted the admiration and the love of his.

He wants to be like Sophia.

Well, he wanted to be more like Rex. He wanted the admiration and the love of his community. He wanted to be the person that everyone goes to. But he also made the point of like he's cut ties with everybody now and he hasn't quite gotten that. So he's using you know, his female friend there to just just tell him what he wants to hear in his warped mind of what he now believes the world is.

Yeah, and going forward here, I guess we'll start with the Oz stuff. I think it's pretty clear with him in that scene in the courtroom, in the Mayor's chair whatever, they're going to pursue this whole Mayor Penguin, mayor ODZ storyline that's popped up a couple times before, and I think that definitely lays the groundwork for Court of Vowel stuff, right, Like that's gonna have to.

Play any buy like, yeah, Batman three or a show or something like that.

Yeah, maybe in between but I think you'll get the groundwork laid for that in the second movie. Dude. One of the biggest questions or theories online is that doctor Julian Rush, who we see help Sophia and still his kind of helping Sophia at the end, You're not quite sure is he gonna be a meaningful character going forward. There were some Scarecrow talk right away, but I think I think you might be on to what he really is gonna be.

Yeah, so I think that he might be the Mad Hatter. I think that they're gonna go a little outside the box here and just not use all the same Christopher Nolan characters as well. But the Mad Hatter is a master hypnotist, which we see in most of the episodes here with him, he has those red red lights that people kind of thought, oh, that's like a fear talks and no, it's.

It's not giving Scarecrow at all.

No, he's a Gotham City adversary of Batman. Jarvis Tech is the character's name. He's delusional and believes that he is the incarnation of the Hatter from Alice in Wonderland. But they could also kind of make that more of a reality thing where he believes that he's something more than he is. And I know in certain comics or in the Batman the animated series, he obsesses over a woman named Alice. You could just substitute that with he obsesses over Sophia.

Yeah. And we've already seen this universe change names a little bit. We've seen it in the Spider Man movies. You know, mj isn't Mary Jane. Like, I'm perfectly fine changing names of most characters. It doesn't fly to me too much.

Actually, Julian Rush not that far off. We're looking syllables with Jervis Lush. Yeah.

Close. Another thing people were talking about online, and I don't really subscribe to this because I think it's pretty definitive at the end there people were wondering if vic is one hundred percent dead again? This is a comic book franchise. After also, is anyone really dead to me? I think so yes, But they think he could come back and play something down the line.

Yeah, because people were saying of Victor Zaz but was that just because of his name?

Probably? Yeah, yea, that makes sense. And then of course we get this Sophia Selena storyline that's brewing and I think I think for sure what we'll get the groundwork laid for in the second movie and maybe see in a second show is Sophia Selena's stuff or maybe that comes up in the movie, and then Oz and court of Owl's type of stuff more more of the politicking, behind the scenes stuff of Gotham that we haven't seen too too much yet.

I don't know. I think that you could do and we're gonna get to this more on your sack, but I think that you could do an amazing job with a character that we have seen many times, but given eight episodes, Harvey Dent, you could really flesh out that character. Like think to the Dark Night. We we got a lot of Harvey Dent, not a lot of two face.

The only thing I'll say to that, Ku and this will we will have to see who the villain's going to be in the second movie. But I don't want to happen, which happens a ton in third movies of trilogies, as them throw like eight villains on the last movie because there's so many people in play, so they sort of have to concentrate, you know, pick a couple of lanes here. They can't do too much. Well.

No, but even if you have a bunch of villains that you show in the shows or like even to show for a second in the movies, they don't have to be central characters to the movies.

No, I know, but once you introduce them, you kind of have to sort of see that through.

No, because if you do a ton of Harvey Dent and then you end two face and then you just put them in Arkham, then you're all set.

Well, then you're like, why did we even do this?

Well, if you're giving me more Sophia fl Cone, I'm gonna take it.

Sure, sure, all right, God, I don't think we need to run through episode by episode. I think we kind of hit everything.

No, but I will mention I do love the slush puppy stuff from the first episode end.

Of the first episode. Yeah.

I do like the flashbacks to Arkham with Sophia in her episodes.

That was episode three or episode four.

Actually, I also love seeing her breaking point of when she's like, fuck it, I'm gonna start killing people. Vic's crown point backstory was very good, and then also when he took the penguin's mom there and she's like fuck him back and Crown Point. Are we serious right now?

I think too there could have been born here. But because they wrote the characters so well, we were so invested in these characters that all this backstory stuff and all this flashback stuff really worked. We see that done in other shows that it doesn't work because you don't care about the characters, but it worked for this show.

Two things. Actually, there's a really good in Crown Point. You can see where the water level was, like where it hit with like the discolorations on the buildings and on the houses there. And then also I love how if there's a big crowd of people, kind of like a protest, you'll see random posters for the Riddler in there.

Yeah, still a thing.

Episode four is the best of the episodes. I would say Episode five has the cooking with Maroni and Sophia. He makes that delicious egg plant soup.

I believe it was the most fotherly experienced she had ever had, which was which was nice for the character.

Episode five I believe kills Squid I Hate Squid might be episode six actually, I think.

I think it was, uh yeah, somewhere in there when Vic just gets sick of him and finally shoots some of the face.

And then I believe Episode five is when him is when Oz and Vic finally cut ties. Come Actually, episode three is when he cuts ties with Sophia because uh Vic hits the Marony's and leaves Sophia for dead pream.

They jumped the flashback at the at the end of episode three. Beginning of four, episode five, Oz has TikTok. Well, TikTok's on the phone. I don't know if Oz has TikTok.

I was like a check out my scroll. He starts scrolling through by dance. Uh oh the drug Layer. I love how he goes his drug layer is where he killed his brothers.

Yeah, that's a really fucked up thing. We already harped on it again. I guess no one really knows where the bat Cave is, but seemingly building your drug layer in an underground tunnel system where Batman is lingering is a bad idea.

I also love when Maroney dies and Oz is like, you fuck, I'm supposed to kill you. Don't die of a heart attack.

And then he shoots him like three times. Oh. Here's the big thing with the timeline that I really felt like it had to have taken place over a couple of months. So he gets that underground layer and what are we maybe a week two weeks into the show, it cuts to later the whole layer is filled with mushrooms that had to have taken weeks to grow all that shit. So this show for sure had to have

I think we're good. I think we're good. On Yeah, I love the show. I enjoyed it greatly, but mentioned Batman. Please let's get into Maxack and Mac Sak could be anything that could be a boat, and we will look at what is coming up in this universe. What did Matt Reeves say? Mac?

Of course, coming off our award winning Figy says, we're here with Reeves says Goo. Reeves says The Penguin Season two is now being discussed. I think this began as a one off mini series, and now I think because people like this show so much and because there's more story to tell, they're beginning to discuss the second season of this. I ask you, do we need it? Do we want it.

I don't know if I need it. I think I would prefer getting other characters. Do I want it? Sure, I would definitely watch. I know. At the beginning of the season, Colin Ferrell made a point of like, I don't want to do a season two. This is a lot of makeup and a lot of time.

Yeah, I think we've told our Oz Penguin story here. I don't think we need a penguin season two. I'm happy to watch him pop up in other stories in this universe. I don't think I need it. I don't think I want it. I think it's just going to diminish what we've already gotten to that point. Carlin Ferrell has already revealed that he has five or six scenes in The Batman two and is attached to star in that third movie. Yeah, so we already know he's not

Colin Farrell was also on Hot Ones. I don't know if it was recently, whatever it is, but he was talking about how actors always talk about you know, you do one artsy movie for yourself and then a blockbuster for you know, for the money or for the fans, and it's like, no, this is this is all for you because you get the money from that movie and then you get to act it up in this one. And so stop saying one for you, one for me, It's all for you.

Eat both twigs.

Yeah. I love Colin Ferrell.

He's pretty great.

So then the question that I hear for you, Mac is if we're not going to get a Penguin, which I don't know if we need another Penguin season, what Batman character would you like to see get their own season of television.

So I think it'll tie in well, and you've already mentioned Tim, I think it would tie in well with what they're building underneath. The overall story is this Gotham and the politics and the corrupt politics. Really feels like a Harvey Dent Court of Vowel situation would play out really well. So I do think like a two faced Harvey Dent type of season would would work really well.

I was gonna say because I would love a mister Freeze television show. I don't know how cost effective that would be though, because his power is the cgi the effects that you would need for that character. I would love a Heart of Ice type of story.

But I think that backstory you can do in a movie.

No, No, you can still do it in the movie. I'm just saying I want mister Freeze. I would really like mister Freeze. I think if you're looking to spend the same amount of money, like you know, not a ton of effects. More a dialogue driven show, a character driven show, Harvey Dent makes a lot of sense because you can just pick up this story with Harvey Dent and how he'll now deal with these characters. I really would love, and I don't think they would do. This

Yeah, I don't think that's a bad idea. They just haven't laid the groundwork for any of that, so it would catch me by surprise if they went that route.

You also need a big enough name, like maybe you could do a clay Face in the background. Could do I don't even think you could do a Mad Hatter show. You would need him to be a background character.

That's why I also starting to think because to me, like Riddler is not a tier B tier villain, which is why I loved Readler in the first movie. And I think Freeze is in that same tier, which is why it's starting to feel more and more like that.

I think you could name a show Freeze. I think you could name a show two Face. I think that there are characters like that. I don't want a joker show. I'm all set with that.

Yeah, no, I agree, but we're joking out for now.

I think you need at least a B level villain, someone I think you need a villain that popped up many times on the Adam West Show or someone that was in the Burton Schumacher verse. Those are pretty well known villains. I think once you go deeper into the CD level, that might be a tough sell for HBO.

Well. Yeah, and they also haven't really gotten into the you know, souped up power types like poison Ivy, So I don't think we're gonna deal with and Ivy in this universe. You know, something would have to happen. Maybe the free stuff gets that roll in a little bit. But like because it has been very real realism has been part of this Reeves verse, so it'll be interesting to see if they cross that line at all and get into some of that more supernatural shit.

I also would have loved really anyone from the bat family, whether it be any of the Robins or Batgirl, but we're in year two of Batman, possibly getting closer to year three, we wouldn't have any of those characters yet.

Yeah, Hush is the other one that everyone wanted when the first movie can't finished. There there's a lot of talk of that, so I think, to me, it's down to Hush to freeze for this for the second movie, and hopefully we'll have that answer within the next few months, right once they start shooting and we're gonna have a good idea of where the villain is.

All right, Mac, where can the people find us?

You can find us on x and on Instagram, at Mac and goop podcast every other platform. We are mac ampersan Goo that includes Max seven, Go thcludes Facebook, Sitch your tuning, Castbucks, speak of Google Play. I alright, radio. We are on Spotify, but more importantly we're on Apple Podcasts. Get on their rate review, subscribe five stars. If you do that, we'll get your free Mac and Go T shirt from the folks over at Watertown Sports Where Watertown Sports

Tepupk dot com check us out. At the beginning of next week four a news dump. And then we're getting close to movies.

Yeah, we have uh I know next weekend Gladiator, Gladiators next week, I believe, so we'll see oh yeah, and Wicked right Wicked, Yeah, So I guess we'll probably do Gladiator at some point.

Let's just do a fucking feature and we'll call it one of those dumb names that everyone has.

What's it called clicked, clicked or or Wadiator.

I'm gonna go Watiator. I like that better. Okay, all right, sure, so check us out. Then Tam Burton by ye please flip the cassette over to side B to continue the adventure. Now it's time for girls jumping on trampolines.