>> Susan Schwartz: For someone who is both passionate about horses and bourbon, there is one position that would be a dream to have, and our guest has got it. I'm, um, Susan Schwartz, your drinking companion, and this is Lush Life podcast. Every week, we're inspired to live life one cocktail at a time. When you think of horse races, there is only one the Kentucky Derby. When you think of cocktails at horse races, there is only one the
Mint julep. And what bourbon do you find in that Kentucky Derby Mint julep? Woodford Reserve. As vice president and master distiller of Woodford reserve bourbon, Elizabeth McCall calls all the shots when defining the quality sensory standard to which every batch of Woodford Reserve must comply. What does it take to become the third master distiller ever at Woodford and one of the youngest distillers in the United States? Well, I'll
let her tell you. But before that, if you love Lush Life, we would so appreciate your support. By signing up to our newsletter, you can get our advice on anything to do with home bartending, where to drink in every major city, special recipes, and even your very own Lush Life mug. Just head to alushlifemanual, uh.substack.com and sign up now. Let's join Elizabeth. Uh, well, it's so great to have you here. Thank you for being on the show.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Thank you for having me, Susan. I'm excited. >> Susan Schwartz: Oh, great, great. Um, now, I've already introduced you in the intro, but why don't you tell people who you are and what you do, and we'll get right into it. >> Elizabeth McCall: Okay. Well, hi, Everybody. I'm Elizabeth McCall. I'm the master distiller for Woodford Reserve. So it's a pleasure to talk with you all and talk with you, Susan. And let's get into things.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, yeah. Now, we always go backwards. I like to know how people got where they did. So if you don't mind, could you tell me a little about where you grew up and what you studied and your family, what they did? >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio. And so Cincinnati has a very warm place, dear place in my heart.
And so that's for those of you that don't know. I'm now in Louisville, Kentucky, and so it's only about an hour and a half, two hours from here, so not far. But it is a special place. And that's where I did all my young childhood years, and then we moved down to Kentucky, uh, when I was, uh, in, like, middle school, and then grew up here. And I haven't left the state of Kentucky since, I mean, traveled, but I've never lived anyplace else.
And I went to undergrad at the University of Louisville and then I got my graduate degree, a master's degree at the University of Louisville. And it was both degrees were in psychology. So I was fixing to be a therapist and things took a very different turn. I heard about an opportunity to work at Brown Forman and work in the spirits industry using my psychology degree. And after doing some practicum and internships, so kind of getting my feet wet in the therapy
world. Working in beverage alcohol just seemed a lot, like a lot less stressful. So I took a chance at getting the job. And it was an entry level job as a sensory technician. And the rest is kind of history. I mean, that changed my life. I mean, I don't know what I. I guess I'd be a therapist right now if I didn't get the job at Brown Forman. >> Susan Schwartz: Well, when you were studying psychology, what kind
of things were you thinking? Oh, I want to be this kind of psychologist or treat these kind of people. >> Elizabeth McCall: I think I had some experience with people that had drug addiction and that sort of thing in my personal life. And so I thought, I think I'd be really good at working with families and helping them work through family challenges. So that was my kind of inspiration. And I just thought the study of human beings and how we operate was always really
fascinating. And it still is fascinating to me. But then doing the therapy part was you take that home with you. You know, you're driving and you're just thinking about clients and am I going to be able to actually help this person? And a thing about therapy is that you don't. Your job is to kind of direct people and not actually fix them. It's not my job to fix them. But anyways, you just carry a lot of it.
So I just. When I heard about the job, the opportunity to work in beverage alcohol and just working for this is my mother and me, uh, for a company that has great benefits and a good pay because I had student loans to pay off, you know, just. So it was also that opportunity of like getting making good money and good health care. So that was another thing. That's not very romantic, but.
>> Susan Schwartz: No, but super important. Now I did, in doing my research on you, I heard that you also were, uh, a horseback rider. >> Elizabeth McCall: Yes. >> Susan Schwartz: Was this something that you had done as a child? >> Elizabeth McCall: Yes, it was something that nobody, nobody in my family was interested in horses or anything. So it's not like I grew up with that But I watched a TV show that was set in the 1800s, and they all
rode horses everywhere. And I thought, I want to do that. So I told my parents that that was what I wanted to do, and they found a place in Cincinnati for me to start. So I just fell in love with it. I would spend. My mom would drop me off there on a Saturday morning, and I'd spend the whole day at the barn riding horses, eat a bag lunch, you know, groom, clean, tack, whatever. I love it. And I've always been very driven person in that way, like, very
personally motivated. And. And I just. I loved it. I loved the whole working hard. I mean, it's like the weirdest thing. And so I've done that since I was little. And saying that makes me think of when I. We went on a. I went to a horse show, and it was over Labor Day or Memorial Day weekend, and I saw people, like, out camping where we were doing our horse competition, and I'm like, why would you go camping for your horse weekend? And, like, just go right here and
you just have to do so much. And then my friend was like, well, we're in a horse show, working really, really hard, like, waking up, you know, like 5:00am to go and take care of our horses, and we're working our butts off the whole weekend for our Memorial Day, like, what? You know, and so it was just funny that I was like, yeah, I guess I don't know how to relax. And my husband would tell you that I'm a constant working person, but horses are
amazing. I have a daughter and a son and my daughter showing interest in horses now, and I really hope that that sticks. So I'm trying to just nurture it, not push. >> Susan Schwartz: Well, how fantastic that you ended up at the brand that makes the official Amy Julep for the Kentucky Derby. How crazy is that? >> Elizabeth McCall: I know. Well, and that's part of, like, this is just such a dream. Because I remember when I joined Brown
Forman in 2009 and we. I went on this orientation and went to Woodford Reserve, and you drive through some of the most iconic horse farms in Kentucky, and it was like this. This brand is amazing. It's. It's a dream. And then now I get to work on it, and it's just. It's. Everything kind of fell into place. >> Susan Schwartz: Yeah. If you're going to love horses any in any state, Kentucky is the state. I have been there. And the horse farms are insane. They're just
glorious. The landscape is gorgeous. So how funny. Now, I also know that your mother worked at Seagram's. Right. And I was just wondering, do you think any of her experiences rubbed off on you in a positive way for you to enter into the business or even in a negative way, really? You know, what did she think and did you think while you were entering it of what it could be?
>> Elizabeth McCall: It's interesting because my mom would always talk about her job at Seagram's because she had left that role by the time I was born. And so there wasn't an overlap. But when I was getting my job here, she'd be like, oh, yeah. And I worked at Seagram, but it was, it didn't influence or take away. But now when we talk about. Comes out so much more because she'll bring up like, oh, I was the
only woman. I mean, my mom worked there in the late 70s and she was the manager of a union of all men, basically working the bottling line. And she was in quality control as well. So she had a couple different roles, but always in bottling. And. And the reason why she left was because she was. They didn't have a maternity policy and my mom was just so overwhelmed and they didn't have a way to, you know, now we've got flexibility and people are more
understanding about, oh, you've got kids. But back then it wasn't a thing. So my mom didn't go back to work after having my brother. But. But she'll talk about that. Just. But my mom's a very strong willed person, so I think that rubbed off on me. And it wasn't this thing like, oh, poor me, I was the only woman. She's like, well, I just told them that this is how we're doing it. And she. But that's Rosemary O'Neill and she's sassy. So I think that's what I
got from my mom. And it was just this. Instilled that belief in me, like, you'll never. You need to support yourself. Don't ever let be like completely reliant on somebody. I mean, my parents are still married and they're very much, you know, she's. It's not like she's like this single woman, but it's like it just was really important. That was something she always said to me was like, you have value and you're a smart person.
>> Susan Schwartz: So, yeah, I guess I got that as well. My mom always said, you know, never rely on anyone. And she and my dad were married for 65 years, so. And she didn't really work. So you took this job and you said there was, I thought, a psychology kind of bit to it. What was it? >> Elizabeth McCall: So when you work in the sensory lab, you are reading or you're. You're testing human response to a stimulus. And our stimulus happens to be beverage alcohol. And so
we're looking at. We are in our sensory lab, we're using human beings as our instrument to judge on quality defects on just anything that shelf life testing, like how long can something sit on a shelf before it changes in flavor profile. So we do all that testing in house at Brown Forman. And that's what I did. Setting up those tests and then being able to interpret the results, do the statistical analysis, all of that. Because I learned all that in my psychology
degree. Because you would do. I had to learn experimentation using human beings. So it all fits really well. It's not the traditional way of thinking about psychology, but it's. We use it. And then I think you use. Psycho psychology is a great degree because you use psychology in Interact in the business world all the time or just in your everyday life, honestly. >> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I've interviewed some bartenders who were, uh, who study
neuroscience and um. It is. Yeah, same kind of thing. And they're like. We use it all the time when we're creating drinks and looking how people are drinking and what they're drinking and how they're drinking. >> Elizabeth McCall: There's so much more to it than just what you see on the surface, right? >> Susan Schwartz: Absolutely. Now, how long did it take
you? I'm, uh, assuming you're in love with the drinks industry, you're still in the drinks industry, but how long do you think it took you to, you know, fall under its charm? >> Elizabeth McCall: It was, I would say we. It was a quick love affair. >> Susan Schwartz: Hopefully still going on. >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, and it's still going on. Especially when I entered. So 2009 is when bourbon was really starting to take off
and. And I had a lot of friends that had a lot of peaked interest in it and. And that encouraged my interest in wanting to really fully understand it. And uh, it was kind of learning how to appreciate it in the lab was. So I think like within the first year or two I was hooked on. On this and. And now with Woodford, it's. It is such a wonder. It's a wonderful relationship that I have and I'm very protective of the brand. And it's like. It's a weird, weird way to think about it, but it is.
You do have this sense of ownership and there's like a weird. Like the liquid I'm responsible for even Though I know we have. I work for a major corporation. There are a lot of people looking at Woodford to make sure that it's okay. But at the end of the day like I'm the person who will be. I look at like Chris Morris, our master still emeritus. I mean he was a Master Stiller since 2003 and now I am that. So for 20 years he owned it and was the, you know, the person to maintain the
quality and integrity. And now that's my job because other people are going to come and go, managers are going to come and go. I'm the constant. And so it's like being the parent or something. >> Susan Schwartz: It's your baby. I was going to say really it is. >> Elizabeth McCall: I guess it's. Yeah, that's what I'm trying. It's like your baby and you just don't want people to abuse it or do anything weird. So it's a, um, I love it and I gotta take care of it.
>> Susan Schwartz: Now just back to your first encounters with alcohol in your business when you were part of the sensory team. Was it all different spirit because Brown Forman has a lot of different spirits. Was it different, Was it all different spirits or was your first encounter with bourbon? >> Elizabeth McCall: I worked on it from formulated products. I had to make Southern Comfort in the lab, make all the base for it and test all the flavors. So
I mean there was so much that I had to. So I touched everything from tequilas, our whiskeys, our wines formulated, I mean everything. So it is, it exposed me to a lot and then learning how to make all of it was really fascinating and then just how everything that goes into it and uh, being on the quality side, I think I developed a really strong passion for understanding what goes into making all of the products and in a really strong appreciation for that. So that was something
that came out in me in this role. And the role was like being very methodical and wanting things to be standardized so that we could make sure we were testing things correctly. So that was. I really leaned into it and found this strong passion for quality in that role. >> Susan Schwartz: And so when did you first start working solely with bourbon then? How long had you been at the company? >> Elizabeth McCall: I had been. So it was 2016 when I was moved to work out um, at
ah, Woodford Reserve. I moved out to the distillery, started working in production out there as quality control specialist out there. And so that was 2016. So yeah, seven years. >> Susan Schwartz: Yeah. And so you were working in all different spirits before that and then solely then just Woodford Reserve. Did you feel Confident to go into one spirit. Was it the direction you wanted to take? Had you been drinking? Sorry, now I'm gonna ask a thousand questions at once.
Had you been drinking bourbon? Is this something that you liked and you thought, I want this to be the, uh, next step in my career is gonna be bourbon because I love it, or was it just happenstance that it was, you know, the world came up and you said, oh, I'm gonna take this one. >> Elizabeth McCall: It was more happenstance, I think, but it also was me driving it. I mean, I was definitely driving that desire to want to interact with the brands and interact
with consumers on our products because they were. In my role as a sensory scientist, we did a lot of things where we would work with our product developers and do showcase, we call it. We would have the lab open and we would showcase the different products that they had developed and talk about them. And when we would do that, I realized how much I loved talking about the flavor profile and trying to not, I mean, I guess, like, sell people on it, but just kind of. It just
fed something in my soul. Like, I love that part of talking to people and that ambassadorship. Like when we would have days where we bring, like, the kids come into work day, and it was like somebody had to present to all the kids, and I was like, oh, I'll do it, because I love that side of it. So I started realizing I had this interest in doing more of the marketing side, and
so I started expressing that. And so then, uh, and I mentioned that because as part of me moving out to work specifically with Woodford Reserve, I was master taster as well. So I had started training with Chris Morris to be master taster. And in that role, it was tasting Woodford Reserve and being intimately
connected with that brand. From knowing the brand story to the liquid development, and then starting to peek behind the curtain with Chris Morris, the master distiller, and doing those presentations and speaking on behalf of the brand and doing that work. So that's when I was like, oh, I really love doing this. I am energized by people by talking about seeing people's excitement for Woodford. And
so that all was going on. And then the other thing, with those seven years of working, uh, with all the different products, and I was also working with all of our global production facilities. So I was going out to all of our global production facilities, learning how they work.
So I was at Jack Daniels, I was at Canadian Mist, I went to Chambord and I went all over, and it gave me such a huge Appreciation for how things are made and the connections you need when you do projects in production and when you have to ask people to do something that might be outside of their box or outside their comfort zone. Working at Woodford in that smaller role, people see you climb the ladder and know that you're part of their team. And so I fully understand and appreciate what I
ask of my team to do. And I always consider that when we're doing a master's collection. So I. Those seven years are so valuable to me. I'm so lucky I got to do that. >> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I'm sure. Now, you said that you were a master taster. What does that involve? I mean, is that something that you learn or do you just have it and you find that you have it? You know, the tongue. I know when I took the wset and they're like, what does this taste like? I was like, well,
you know, they'll give me a bourbon or would I say rum? And I'd be like, it tastes like rum. You know that, you know, does. Is it something that you feel like you developed or you naturally had? >> Elizabeth McCall: I think it's a combination. It's something I naturally had. Uh, and then you nurture it and learn to really, really develop it. And that was what happened. Part of my role in the
sensory role. We started the quality descriptive analysis panel, so I was starting that work away from even doing stuff with Chris Morris. So I was already starting to figure out, okay, how do we measure whiskey in a qualitative way? Uh, but in a way that we can all build a consensus around the flavor profile. So you could look at a whiskey. You could look at a new whiskey and judge the spiciness of that distillate versus one that's a fully mature whiskey. And. And it's all on the same scale,
and it's very challenging to do that. But we worked with some sensory groups on that, so that really got my palate tuned in. But I still have to do it. I mean, I still have. I have aroma jars here that I'll open up and just refresh my brain. Because you just need that to set your reference point again, like, what does clove smell like again? And so that was something that I really developed.
And then as a master taster, got to really figure out how I apply that to the specific role with Woodford Reserve. >> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, I saw that you were on the committee to do that, how to properly nose and taste things. How did you come to consensus or did you even. >> Elizabeth McCall: Well, we would. Because we. The way that we do. We had, um, panelists that we trained and we started with. You
create references. So basically. And it converted over to, we started with like, here's a really fruity Scotch and this is the one. This is if something's going to be dried, dark fruit. And this is the. On a scale of 1 to 10, this is a 10. Then everything else, how do you, how does it compare to that? And so you, you have to have these anchoring references. And then we converted it over to Jack Daniel so it was like, Jack
is your standard. And so maybe on the fruity scale, you know, it's at a seven and then on the brown, uh, sugar scale, it's, it's a little bit more like, uh, a five or you know, and you just kind of work it that way. And then smoke, it's zero. And then you have a reference of maybe ard bag is your, this is smoke. And if it's going to exist in whiskey, this is what it looks like. And so that's where you have your anchors
and that becomes your reference. That if you're going to give something this rating, it has to compare to your reference point. And so then that kind of becomes how you standardize. And afterwards we would kind of talk like if somebody was a major outlier, they would be, you know, we would have to maybe talk to them like, okay, why did you choose that? And then they could get kicked out of the panel or something.
And that's, that's what. They're an instrument. So you would, with an instrument you'd take out your outliers. >> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, exactly. Uh, now coming to Woodford Reserve had, what was the first role that you had there? >> Elizabeth McCall: I was a senior quality control specialist. I worked in the processing dumping area, so where we would dump all of our batches. So I was up in that part of the distillery.
>> Susan Schwartz: And what was it like working, uh, your initial thoughts about working with just one brand? >> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, I loved it. I mean it was, there's so much pride because I, I had spent a lot of time out at Woodford already and developed really close relationships with everyone there. And so then getting to work out there and be boots on the ground and just wear, you know, steel toed boots every day and
you're just. I just, I love that work and I love when I do get to go out to the distillery and just be with the distillery team and not be master distiller, but just be myself. And I mean they all, I don't like think of me that way, but they all knew me before I became in this role and so it's just nice to talk and talk about whiskey and what we can do to improve it. I don't know, it's just there's great people that work at uh, Woodford. It's like the dream team out there.
>> Susan Schwartz: And to be only the third master distiller ever is quite a thing. You know, tell me a little bit about working with Chris and you know, progression towards being assistant master distiller and then him handing the reins over to you. I know it's, you know, it's a lifetime of knowledge, but hand pick the things that maybe he taught you or that you figured out on your own. >> Elizabeth McCall: So he, he uh, taught me almost everything I know. I always
joke that he's like my bourbon dad. I mean he is somebody that's just extremely special to me and that I can go to him with any issue. There's a huge level of comfort and uh, trust between he and I and that developed over time. Um, because you know, it went from being this is Chris Morris and putting him up on this pedestal of oh my God, he's this legend. And I am going to go like ride around with him and learn from him how cool and not even knowing what do I say and how do I act. But he and
I meshed right away. There was no. Just such a nice level of comfort. And he shares. I remember my first trip with him going down to Nashville and it was like being on a narrated like bus ride or something. Like every, every stop he's like, do you know what happened here? And there's this. And he has historical information and little bits of trivia about everything. And so he's just a fascinating person to be around. And so when. And now it's like he is family at this point. And so it's funny
because now I can be like, Chris, what are you doing? Or I mean it's the way that I talk to him is family member and it's, it's shifted from being this person. I'm like, oh, I don't even know how to talk to you to now we just can totally shoot the breeze. But he taught me
so much. A lot of it was like, I mean he really taught me my presentation skills of life, how to, how do you act at an event, like going up and introducing yourself to people and how to present at a dinner and so all those sorts of things and then how to handle tough situations in the distillery or things that are going on with the brand and where you have to kind of put like when quality is at stake and you have to really fight for it. And he's taught me, uh, how to handle those
situations. He taught me how to innovate and how to maintain brand integrity. And that is something, I mean, he's teaching that to all the teams at this point, really, because I think something that's really important and I don't know, he's been around so long, but understanding your brand's identity and what your brand stands for and not going all over the place just because it's what's cool, it's like, stay true to your values. And that's kind of important about, I guess, you
as a person in life. And so you always would talk about Woodford Reserve as like a human, as like a person in a way. And so it was really important to make sure that we maintain Woodford and what is. So we can't just. We're not just going to do some sugary thing with it or like a liqueur or something. It's like, what do we stand for? And so that's been something that's been huge. And it's how. It's what
drives all the innovation. It's like we're going to do things in a natural way using, um, grains that have been toasted instead of using flavors, and we're going to use different wine barrels and things that are premium to work with this brand to do innovation. And then another thing that he taught me that I think is so important, especially because he's a very humble person. And when you're in a role where it is a big role, I mean, somebody said to me yesterday, they're like, so you're. You're
kind of famous, aren't you? And I was like, uh, no, that's. That's a stretch. I can walk anywhere and nobody knows who I am. That's not famous. But. But everything I have gotten to do in my career, the amazing trips, the amazing events I've gotten to do, the derby, it's all because of Woodford Reserve. It's not. I mean, yes, I do a lot. I'm good at my job, but I wouldn't be doing these things if it wasn't for Woodford. And Woodford is why I get to
do all these amazing things in my job. And I never lose sight of that, that I'm here to represent Woodford. I'm here to speak on Woodford's behalf because Woodford can't speak for itself. So that is just something that. And it keeps you humble and it keeps you grounded in trying to just always remember to put Woodford first when you're out doing your job.
>> Susan Schwartz: It's not about me, but I'm sure when you're stepping into a role like this, you also can't help but think, ooh, what can I do now? You know, I think that's just human nature. And especially because you have the Masters collection, the Distillers collection, all of these things, other than, you know, preserving the liquid. Obviously goes without
saying. Now that you've been in this role almost two years, were there things that you had wanted to do when you were assistant master distiller and you got to finally do them or you. Or you even thought of them when you became the Masters Distiller? >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, we are doing some. Switching some things up. So, you know, I mean, I can't reveal too much, but I've always wanted to play with proof and maybe step outside of doing things
just at 90.4 proof. So I think be looking for that to come from me. And it's not about just doing a high proof, just to do a high proof, but to display the whiskey in the way that is the best that I really enjoy and that I just feel like sometimes I open up barrels and I taste them and it's a higher proof, and I'm like, oh, I can't bear to cut it all the way down to 90.4. I love my 90.4 Woodford Reserve bourbon. I drink it all the time.
But sometimes when something's really special, there's just a better presentation at a higher proof. So, um, so you'll see that and then even age and really trying to play in that space. And, um, so that'll be an interesting thing too, because we've never done an age statement. And so. So those are things that I think will be the biggest difference. But other than that,
when it comes to, I mean, we. We just filled some cabernet barrels and I love cabernet red wine, so we'll do that and see how that does. And so it's just kind of a fun playing in that space. And I think it's stuff that Chris will be proud. He's proud to see me do it. And it's stuff that he never really did. >> Susan Schwartz: And so now, you know, we didn't. We didn't really talk about your relationship with bourbon. Did
you drink bourbon when you were younger? Is it something that, you know, maybe your dad drank or your mom drank? >> Elizabeth McCall: So it was something that my dad would come home every night and have his, his one bourbon. I mean, that's. And he still is that way. My mom's a beer drinker, so she, she puts ice in her beer. But my dad always drank bourbon when he would get home. And so. But when I was younger, I just, I didn't, I didn't
know how to drink it. I mean, I sounds so weird to say now, but I felt like you, I couldn't fathom the idea of drinking a high proof spirit, anything neat or on the rocks. Like I always, I had to mix it. I just was like you, you don't drink that straight. Gross. So it took me a while to appreciate how to drink bourbon, just enjoy it for what it is. And I mean, I do love
cocktails. I'm not really embarrassed by it. I find it funny. I mean, when I went out, it was the early 2000s and you know, people were drinking vodka and vodka soda was huge. So I would have my vodka soda and lime and go about my business. >> Susan Schwartz: There's nothing wrong with that. >> Elizabeth McCall: That's what I was drinking. And then when I started at Brown Forman, that's when I learned how to
drink bourbon and appreciate it. And now, I mean, if I'm doing, I just pour it over the rocks. I am a bourbon on the rocks kind of girl. I don't really drink it neat unless I'm tasting something that's a little special, a little more elevated. But I regular bourbon, I'm bourbon on the rocks. And because I just love it and it tastes so good and when I go place, I mean it really, I just, I don't know what I'm either red wine or bourbon. That's it.
>> Susan Schwartz: You know, I'm not saying this because I have you on the other side of the microphone, but yes, um, bourbon. Bourbon is my favorite spirit as well. I was interviewing a brand ambassador once and she. A brand ambassador for a bourbon. And she said, a bourbon is my husband and tequila is my lover. And I love that because those are actually my two favorite sweets. Yes. And, um, but I'm an old fashioned girl. I like it with a little bit of the sugar.
>> Elizabeth McCall: I love old fashioned, but it's really. I like when somebody else is making me a cocktail and mint juleps. >> Susan Schwartz: Oh, me too. Me too as well. Now, I also read that, you know, you said that Chris Morris was such a historian and the things that you loved were delving into flavor and also sustainability. And I was wondering if you've gotten to do that in your new role.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yes. So I've been really, uh, heavily involved with the Kentucky Rye project and bringing back rye, uh, for commercial use to Kentucky because rye doesn't grow well in Kentucky on any large scale. People do it on a smaller scale, uh, but on a large scale it's very challenging. So and, and it's a big sustainability play because once you harvest corn you can put the rye, plant it and cover as a winter cover crop.
And it does wonders for your soil. It stabilizes the topsoil so you don't see as much uh, soil runoff into your stream. So it cleans up your waterways and then it sequesters carbon from the atmosphere and draws it down into the soil. So it actually fertilizes the soil as well. So it has so many benefits as a cover crop. So that's one piece of it. But then if you can take it and have it go to seed and actually harvest the rye, seed and have that and then sell it, then it
becomes more than just a cover crop. It's now has an uh, economic uh, component to it as well. So that's been a project that I've been working on myself with Woodford Reserve and then the University of Kentucky. And so there's uh, several people involved in it and it's just the farmers really. We've got four dedicated farmers to doing all the dirty work of the data research and working with are um, to learn how to, when do you plant, when's the best
time to plant and all that. So there's so many different facets to work. But that's uh, it's a five year project and we've already completed year one and we're on year two and we're about to meet in a couple weeks to kind of gear up for this next harvest and see how things are going. So it's just really fascinating. I've learned a lot about farming. It just gives you such a great appreciation for all the work that goes into that.
>> Susan Schwartz: And have you been able to use that rye in your rye? >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, so we've been using Kentucky grown rye because this is like phase two of uh, this Kentucky Rye project. And so we've been for the past five years once a year using Kentucky grown rye in our uh, Woodford whiskey. Only a small quantity because there's not a lot of it but uh, so that's been really fun to be a part of that project.
>> Susan Schwartz: And did you find that it, it changed like the taste was different from before when you were using a different states rye? >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, it's slightly more floral and fruity than the standard plump Rye, which is just a little more grassy. So that we've seen, and that's just in the new make, distillate, and then it kind of fades out as it gets mature. With the barrel influence, you don't see all those subtle differences, but
it's hard to say. I mean, that was just one year's crop, so, you know, we'll see. We've got lots of years to start comparing. And so we're doing all that flavor research as part of this study. >> Susan Schwartz: And I wonder if the corn will then have a different flavor. >> Elizabeth McCall: Well, uh, we haven't noticed. >> Susan Schwartz: I know nothing about farming though, so I have no idea.
>> Elizabeth McCall: We haven't noticed anything with flavor but the yield. So just that you see a greater growth rate of your corn. Our farmers are seeing that because the soil's healthier. >> Susan Schwartz: And you also, of course, make so wheat, malt, rye and corn bourbon. How have you seen them grow? Have you seen people really respond to them? >> Elizabeth McCall: Yes, but they're so small that our rye whiskey is a fantastic rye whiskey. I, I think the flavor is
phenomenal on it. Uh, but it's. We don't have the facility capacity to make a ton of it, so it's always going to be a little smaller. And then our wheat and malt, they're beautiful liquids, but I just think that they're so limited. I mean, they're always out. They're not something that we're one time of year release. But, um, they're just so small that people don't really know about them. And so I think when we get more people tasting them, that'll kind of the interest will grow. But it's.
They're always going to be really small expressions of Woodford. >> Susan Schwartz: And I have a list here of the past Distiller series expressions. There's a lot there, tons. What. Which ones are you still making or you are, you know, were kind of your favorites that you, you loved. >> Elizabeth McCall: So with Masters collection, it's a one and done, so we don't repeat them. Uh, but we're kind of toying with the idea of do we bring back ones that people just were
extremely popular? Uh, that I loved because I do. There's a few of them that I'm like, they were just so good. Like, I loved our Pinot finish. The Chardonnay finish is one of. It's Chris Morse's favorite Masters collection. And so it's like, we should bring it back also. >> Susan Schwartz: You describe, you described one in a different podcast about the heavy toast. I even wrote it down. Dessert Bourbon. >> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, our. Um, Is it the double double or the.
>> Susan Schwartz: Yes, I think it was that. And you. Oh, my God, that sounded so good. I was like, is there any left? >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, well, double double. We actually are just. We just released it nationally in the US So it used to be just something we would only have for. Available in the state of Kentucky, and now it's available in USA and Canada. Um, so we're really, really excited that people are getting their hands on that and people are pumped
about that because it is. It is delicious. >> Susan Schwartz: Yes. When I get home, I may have my mom order one just. Just to make sure we have. We have one because the way you described it sounded so good. And you know, I love a bourbon both before dinner and after dinner. So to have something that you call a dessert, bourbon just has to be good. Just has to be great. Now, the Distiller series. So, um, you talked about the master collection. The Distiller
series. How is that that different from the master collection? Just for people who might not know. >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So the distillery series is one that we only release in the state of Kentucky. And, uh, so it's only released there and predominantly at our home place. And it is small runs that we don't have the ability to scale up to a, um, like a master's collection level. And they're really meant to be just nice offerings for. Thank you for coming to visit us.
And here's an opportunity to get something unique you can't get anywhere else. >> Susan Schwartz: That is such a reason to hear that, everyone, that it's a reason to go visit Kentucky, man. Yes. Uh, it's the stuff that you can't get anywhere else. So also I was wondering, you know, what changes have you seen since you've been there, since you've been there for a while? >> Elizabeth McCall: A lot, I'm sure. A lot. Well, we've doubled capacity at
our distillery. So we've got. We went from three pot stills to now we have six pot stills. We have 16 fermenters. So we've exploded immensely. So not only have we grown physically in the. The amount of, uh, equipment we have, but then the time like when I first started going out to Woodford, we bottled twice a week. And then now, then we got to a point where we were bottling 24, seven across three shifts. And now we've been able to rejig it. We send some of our product to our
Louisville campus to be bottled. And, um, so that has helped alleviate some of that. But now, I mean, it's just crazy how we're we're five days a week, two shifts, bottling constantly. Just a huge team of people. I mean, it's just. It used to be such a sleepy place out at Woodford, and now it is not so much. We're always going and going. >> Susan Schwartz: It is incredible. I mean, I do a cocktail tour and when I talk about how things have changed, it's really in the past, not even 20
years. And, you know, uh, the love of Bourbon around the world now is just insane. I mean, it's incredible that this liquid has really. People have fallen in love with it again after the vodka tonic years, you know, it's really incredible. And to hear that you just bottled twice, twice a week, even a few years ago, really is insane. >> Elizabeth McCall: I know. >> Susan Schwartz: I, uh, never would have thought that. Especially such a popular brand as Woodford Reserve.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, I mean, that was probably when I. That was gonna. That was probably around 2010, 11. It was like that. And now it's just taken out. I mean, it's just to see, like our bottling line, how it has changed. I mean, it went from being something that you bring over a few cases and people would take the bottles out and put them on the line themselves to now we have like an un, you know, depalatizer and, you know, an uncaser
that's all automated. It's just crazy to see how much it's all changed. And, um, it's like Frankenstein, our little bottling line. >> Susan Schwartz: I want to just bring down the bottle for a sec because I always think it's fun for people to look at, uh, the bottle, especially if they're. If they're looking at the video. So guys, look at the video on YouTube and I heard that you have been practicing. You practice your signature. >> Elizabeth McCall: I did.
>> Susan Schwartz: So what can you just tell people what they find when they, when they read the label? The label. >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. So we've got the, yeah, the batch number on there and the percent ABV and batch number. And you've got the, like, our signatures on there. So you've got Chris Morris's signature. And my signature is slowly rolling out to other bottles. And so you'll see Elizabeth McCall on there. >> Susan Schwartz: So the next bottle I have will be yours.
>> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah, yeah. Well, uh, yeah, I know my. It's slowly making its way out there, but yeah, when I was practicing my signature for that, I was like, I've got to get this right and make sure it looks good. So I went to. I did a bunch of them on white paper and then took my signature to my colleagues that work in the Sensory lab. And they're the most honest people that I work. Like, they know me from when I was nobody. So it's like they've been with me the whole
journey. And so they're good at being very critical, and I love that. And so I went and I was like, okay, which one do you all like? And they picked and criticized everything. And so then that. That was how I picked which one. Which one was the best? >> Susan Schwartz: Well, see you. It's kind of. You came full circle because you went back to the sensory lab, right? >> Elizabeth McCall: Oh, yeah. They're my people, so I. I always go back to them.
>> Susan Schwartz: Well, this has been really, really fabulous. It's been great talking to you about your journey to Master Distiller. >> Elizabeth McCall: Thank you. This was a fun interview. I appreciate it because you said, uh, I've done a lot of interviews. And so this one was really enjoyable. Thank you. >> Susan Schwartz: Thank you for spending the time with me. >> Elizabeth McCall: Yeah. Thank you, Susan. This was wonderful.
>> Susan Schwartz: I want to thank Elizabeth for joining me on the program. And thank you so much to Woodford Reserve for sponsoring the transcription for the hearing impaired. Elizabeth's choice for cocktail of the week is a Kentucky cocktail through and through. So even if you think you know how to make it, try it again the Woodford Reserve way. Our cocktail of the week is the Woodford
Reserve Old Fashioned. You'll need Woodford Reserve bourbon, of course, Demerara sugar syrup, Angostura bitters, a large ice cube and an orange peel. The simplest way to make sugar syrup, in my opinion, is to get a teacup. Add ah, one tablespoon of sugar, then one tablespoon of boiling water and stir until dissolved. It's so easy. Pour 2 ounces of that bourbon into your favorite old Fashioned glass, of course. Then add half an ounce of Demerar simple syrup and three dashes of
Angostura bitters. Add your gorgeous ice cube and then stir for at least 10 seconds. Then express that orange peel over the cocktail and drop it right in. You'll find this recipe in all the Cocktails of the week@alushlifemanual.com plus links to most of the ingredients. Heading to Philadelphia, where I'll finally meet my producer face to face for the first time ever. How is that possible if you live for Lush Life? Make sure you head out to the bars you love and order a drink.
Theme music for Lush Life is by Steven Shapiro and used with permission. And Lush Life is always and will be forever, produced by Evoterra and Simpler Media Productions. Yes, that Evo Terra I have never met him face to face only online. Which leaves me to say the wise words of Oscar Wilde. All things in moderation, including moderation. And always drink responsibly. Next time we meet one of the best bartenders in London. Until then, bottoms, um, up. >> Elizabeth McCall: T.