¶ Intro / Opening
Music Music
Hello and welcome to Loving Your Garden, Better Gardening Podcast, your friendly guide to getting the very best out of your garden. I'm Rod Whiting, group founder, and as ever, we are joined by our resident horticulturist, John Stirland. Hello, John. Hello
there, Rod.
And today, as we embark on another British summer, we're joined by one of our nation's most decorated garden designers, multi-RHS gold medal winner, David Stevens.
Don't go to do it too much. much, Rob. It'd be lovely to be here. Good to see you both.
Well, listen, whether you're trying to keep your borders looking their best, dealing with heat waves and hose pipe bans, or simply wondering how to keep your containers going through these long summer days, we've got you covered. I mean,
¶ Adapting to Climate Change
we've just had, I think, a record dry spring or very close to it. Let's talk about watering while we're on this subject, watering and heat management, because we're told that summers are going to keep getting warmer. We're clearly having an issue with the amount of rain we're getting. So how do we get smarter with gardening in these conditions?
Well, one thing that I've got is now three water butts, one leading from one and leading to the final one. And of course, that's better than tap water anyway, as far as I'm concerned. I think one thing that we need to think about is mulching well, which will help to retain the moisture in the soil. Good ground cover, which does the same thing, and retains the moisture in the soil.
And I tend to use quite big areas of, if I've got a bare patch of loose cobbles and even smooth boulders with plants coming through because the boulders actually hold that moisture in the soil as well. So, and shade, although a lot of people to me think that shade is difficult, shade is good in a garden. I've got, and you think, you know, John and Rod, I've got this wonderful big magnolia, shady area completely underneath and things that our shade lovers thrive there.
And in those dry conditions that we've been having, they've still been absolutely fine. So what I'd say is encourage shade. If you can, plant shrubs and trees that will give you some shade. Think about mulching. Think about retaining moisture in the soil. Do all that you can to keep that moisture locked in there.
Just picking up on what you said about the magnolia, and for people who wonder about the importance of gardens when it comes to the property as a whole, am I right in saying that that magnolia was the reason you bought that house?
It took me two years, Rob. And we got it in the end. And the trouble was the magnolia cost me £365,000. The house came free. Brilliant. I don't mind that.
¶ Moving to a New Garden
But gardeners, this is what we do. People buy a garden because it faces in a certain direction, because it's got a good view, because some of the established planting is excellent. And if you've got that, these things are linchpins. Then you can build the new garden around. And I'm a great believer in... Don't slash and burn. Don't take everything out. Look at what you've got. Look at the structural plants. Look at structures within the garden. Don't immediately take them out.
I've got this wonderful old serpentine concrete path because it's 1930s house. Now, years ago, we'd have taken it out and skipped it. But now I've kept that. The carbon footprint is minimal. And I've blended that into the new pattern of the garden. And that together with the structure plants and shrubs, those, if you like, that's the skeleton of the garden. And then you can flesh it out
with all the things that you want to place I must admit David we've got two apple trees in here I as soon as an apple tree is over 20 years old it starts to get lots of character to me and when I saw the apple trees and they were a lot older than 20 years I thought this is where I've got to be and they're fantastic and of course you can grow things through an apple tree as well it's it's it is a training device it's not just the tree of its own and But the other thing about watering, Rod,
¶ Watering Tips
I would say is when you water, water properly. There's no point in going out at night with a sprinkler and just going round and watering things. If you've done the pots, for instance, and you've got a bowl of water, pour that round a whole plant because it'll go right down five, six, seven inches, even further. And then when you put Dave's mulch on... It's going to stay there for a lot, lot longer. It's a waste of water just to put a little bit around each plant.
And so I watch people on the allotment when they're watering, and I'm looking and thinking, it's going to do absolutely nothing. But, you know, they
think it is. I always think it's a good exercise to, when you finish watering, just find a little sort of spare space, if you've got any, and dig down a little bit. And it's always surprising to see how far the water has gone down. You'll find that it's not as deep as you think.
No, no, exactly. And what John says, if people just sprinkle it on, it flashes off in this dry weather. It doesn't even, hardly hits the plants. It's just gone, doesn't
it? Yeah, and also, David, you can hear the slugs going, yippee! Last thing at night, out they come. Just that surface is nice and damp. And the next thing, your hostas are like Nottingham lace. But
¶ Slugs & Snails
talking of slugs and snails and
hostas, I've got this big cotton steel bowl full of water. And of course, I've got some stones and boulders in it, and all the birds come down to drink, and the blackbirds in particular. I haven't got slug or snail damage on any of my hostas. They're magnificent. And if you like, that's called a biological control. And one creature is then a predator on another, and that keeps the whole system going, and it's important in a garden.
Okay, so maybe just finish on a couple of summer survival tips then for hot summers, just for the benefit of bullet points what should we be careful to do I
think with pots one of the things I always say to people the bigger the pot the better and a really big deep pot is going to give you that depth of soil and it will help maintain the moisture and the plants really do benefit and you don't have to water every day or whenever it's just it just makes sense it really does
okay
¶ Summer Planting
let's let's get on to summer planting then and color because this is the time of year isn't it when you want your garden to look absolutely I mean, people have, particularly keen gardeners, have been putting all this effort in through spring to get their garden looking great. And I know, David, you're going to bring some of your plants into this. But let's talk about plants that do well and the importance of colour.
to me if you don't mind me starting because david's the designer and um because you know when you go to a garden center people go regularly and then oh we'll have one of them um and then we'll have one of them and then they go a bit later and it's one of them and i mean to me there should be a certain amount of planning you know it's great to go to a garden center but um you know and you end up all higgledy-piggledy you can see behind me here i've got a fern i've got a fern rod.
I know you're not that keen on fern.
No, they've got their place, haven't they?
Yeah, absolutely. And I find these wonderful between, say, two, if you've got two bright colours and you want to subdue them a little bit, that green between them keeps them apart, stops them boxing each other, you know, getting on each other's nerves. And I think they're fantastic. So, yeah, just you should have some idea of what what you want in the garden to me to start with.
And then, okay, go down the garden center, have a coffee, and then have a look around and think, okay, Is that going to fit in? Or you end up with a garden that's, I don't know, you can tell it's not designed. It's difficult for me to say, but I'll leave it to David now. I mean, you're right,
John. Overcomplication is the death of any kind of design, whether it's textiles, whether it's cars, and particularly in gardens. And nurserymen and the garden centres aren't daft. They're called point of sale. People go in and they say, oh, with that lovely little red plant. I've got to have that. And never read the flipping label. And if you read the label, it will tell you the basic information. And they find it will grow eight meters wide and eight meters high in three years.
And it's totally unsuitable. So take your time, John. Exactly right. Do your homework and plan over a period of time. And I think in a garden, try and plan for succession. of colour and interest. And it's become a bit of a dirty word with people say, oh, shrubs are not in vogue now. I'll tell you what, shrubs are the backbone of a border. They will give you that colour and interest right the way through the year. Evergreens, of course, in the winter as well.
And then you can work in your hardy perennials and your ground covers and all of those things. I mean, we were taught, I was trained as a landscape architect, and we were taught that, you know, you need that balance. You don't need to have a monoplan.
planting of i know it's you know grasses and the hardy perennials now and they say oh it looks wonderful in the winter with all the seed heads you know you get a really heavy shower or really bad rain and wind it looks awful but it loses its color and texture but a shrub border with perennials looks fantastic look at people like dear old rosemary vera who's passed now look at some of the borders that she did that to my mind is what a true mixed border
is all about absolutely a lot mixed border with shrubs deciduous shrubs and when those leaves fall off in autumn then you can have hellebores underneath and things like that which are protected in the summer with the leaves and then they get the stage to themselves in the winter which are still flowering now my hellebores have still got flower on some of the modern ones the colour goes but they still look fantastic don't they they're
good at the moment I've got quite a bit in flower I've got the alstroemerias are just starting they're breaking buds now they're just starting to come in flower the early roses are out which are fabulous as well I've got some cracking one I have got which you've got to be careful with I've got rambling rector oh good which is a wonderful oh but I tell you what it's a fabulous but I've let it run in and out of stuff and it's in the winter it's gauntlets and a pair of loppers don't even think
about secateurs with it but it's a one at this time of the year phew Pure, pure white flowers. Not very big, but masses of them. And I've got it running through a huge selenium, which is also covering an old hibiscus. I've got hibiscus underneath. I've got selenium on top. And I've got the rambling rector running through it. So it's three plants in one, really. And that's a good tip, I suppose, as well. You mentioned that, John, about running roses or whatever up into your apple trees.
And it's a great thing to give more interest to one plant,
bringing
interest to
another one. Can you remember Kiff's Gate? David. That's another one. I think there's a beech tree and the rose goes right up to the top of it. It's
fascinating. The one I'd keep saying, it goes miles now. It's into the car park.
It's all over the place.
No, fabulous. A lot of those big, strong ramblers, I mean, they only usually get one flush of flour, but they're magnificent when they're
in flour. Yes, but that's, like you say, David, you've got a continuation. You've got something else coming. Who wants chrysanthemums to 52 weeks a year. You know, we get it. We got excited about the narcissus, then the tulips and the eroded engines and azaleas. And then we go on, don't we? To the summer. And of course, all the
hardy geraniums or many of the hardy geraniums are flowering right now. Fabulous.
Yeah. My, my, euphorbias are looking fantastic and of course they give you color and interest for a huge long season they really do um i've got the course i've got self-seeded fox clubs all over the place um as you you know people should remember that it's they they form the leaf one year and they flower the second year um and i just let them self-seed anywhere basically and if they are in the wrong place just pull them out but they look wonderful and they pop up You never quite know where
they're going to be. And they're an accent plant. They lead the eye. They've got that lovely tall shape. And they go with nearly anything, don't they? They look good with nearly anything. I've got a big one in front of my hot lips. Salvia hot lips, which is fantastic. And they look fantastic together. And sometimes you get these combinations purely by chance. One thing flowers or comes through another, and you think, wow, that's good. I'll try that
again. One of the great shrubs at the moment is common, but... See you now, youthers. What a blue. What a blue that is.
You probably noticed I went slightly red face when you said it's no good having all of your perennials in one bed because that's exactly what I did and I'm looking out at that bed now and it's all green. There's so much foliage and there is a bit of colour because I've got hot lips in there and I've got an air room. But yeah, I do need to break that up and the Point is taken, David. Thank you very much indeed. Mixed borders.
The only way you can do that, Rod, is to have, with a herbaceous, is to have a massive... herbaceous border you know like the double one that you get up at where is it in Yorkshire can't remember now fantastic so much there's so much room that you can put lots of things in because there's always something coming on but in a garden you want that mixed border like David's mentioned so you've got something at different heights all the time yeah yeah
A lovely combination I've got at the moment, blue hardy geraniums together with astrantias. And they look fabulous. And the geraniums sort of lace their way through because they're quite a lax thing, but they almost climb up in amongst the astrantias. the plants and they look absolutely fabulous. So I think, think about mixing your plants together. You mentioned, uh, Cianothus charm. Well, I've got that with, um, a little rambling rose called goldfinch. Oh yeah.
Both flower at the same time and they look fabulous. And if you want a fragrant rose, goldfinch is the one to have. I've got a little gazebo and I've got goldfinch and honeysuckle running up around it. And the smell when you sit down there in the evening is just preferably with, with a gin and tonic or a pint. That's what I would say. We have, It
looks, smells absolutely great. Yeah, we've got the first flower. Actually, it was the 2nd of May that we got the first flower on the Simple Life. Single rose, fragrant, and it's just a mass of flowers. It's phenomenal. Bees love it, and they love the singles because they can get in there easily. So the ceanothus and the garden, it's just buzzing at the moment. It's absolutely fantastic. Oh, and the other one at the moment,
of course, which does run on pretty well, are most of the cistus. And I've got cistus corberiensis farrowing its head off. There's a lovely little pink one, cistus peggy salmons, which is gorgeous as well. And then I've got down the bottom of the garden, the cistus lucitanicus, which is a later flower. So that will be flowering mid-summer. And that one carries on pretty much into the autumn. So cistus will give you flower over a long period of time. Lovely, lovely plants. They really are good.
You've given us some food. Food for thought there. It certainly gave me food for thought in terms of breaking up some of that herbaceous border that I created. I was very pleased with it because, of course, at the end of the year, it looks fantastic. All these different shapes and structures and colors. But at this time of year... It's a little bit lacking, so thank you. I'll do something about that. Probably straight after this podcast. Start digging.
Well, like David says, when you've got those shrubs and things, underneath you can put the hellebores and things like that, and perhaps a sedum somewhere. I look at the sedums now and say, wow, in October or whatever, you're going to look fantastic. You can see them. coming on. And I love this. So many different sedums as well. And great, great plants. And what
they've done with the sedums, John, I mean, as you say, there's a lot more hybrids. And traditionally, they used to get a bit open, a bit floppy, didn't they? The centres would break out. But a lot of the newer varieties are much more compact now.
Yes. And they're a good plant, aren't they? They really are. Yeah. The old ones, I used to put a hanging basket over, let them grow through it. That kept them looking great.
I do think of combinations, Rob. I mean, I'm just looking up, I've got the other computer on with the slides and I've got, um, first a Carpus Diablo, which is a beautiful, deep, purple, purpley, brondy purple, great, which is in flower at the moment, which is great. In front of that, for later in the summer, I've got hydrangea, paniculata, vanilla phrase. So it's a panicle one. It opens white and then turns pink. And against that white, that white against the physocarpus looks fantastic.
Underneath that, then I've got alstroemerias running through. So that's the one, Indian summer, which Peter Seabrook, bless him, gave me one of those at Gardeners World. It's now it now fills one side of the garden. You can divide it up ever so easily. It's a good plant. So I've got those plants all working together and they look absolutely fabulous. So do think of what we call reversal planting. You don't want to plant two variegated things together because they cancel one another out.
So you're looking for different shapes of leaf, different shapes of form and different colours which complement one another. So, you know, try and mix your palette, but make sure you get these reverses so it's not all of a one type.
Right. Okay. Well, a few things to think about there. Okay. Let's
¶ Garden Design tips
move on to the design side of things, David. When we're looking at summer, it's not just about the plants, is it? There are other factors to take into account as well.
Yes. And water is certainly one of them. I mentioned my big water bowl. Something I put in recently for a bit of fun. I have an old galvanized tank in the roof. Don't use them now. We managed to get it down. My son underneath catching it. No, it's very heavy. I took it out in the garden and I put a liner in it. fills with water, and then I put one of these rain chains on. A what? A rain chain. You take the old downpipe down away, and then you put a chain, and it has these cups in it.
It's actually a Japanese feature. And when it rains, the water spills down it and just splashes down and tinkles into the galvanized tank underneath. It's the most lovely feature. And I've also fixed up a very small hose pipe that comes over the garage roof down this rain shade, I can just put the tap on a fraction and it just sparkles down. It's a wonderful feature. But that's something a bit different.
To me, a garden's got to have water of some sort in it. It really has, even if it's just one of these self-contained little features. But obviously, I've got a wildlife pond. Went down last night with the torch full of newts. Absolutely fantastic. It was just delightful to see them. Smooth newts, but I've also got some crested newts now as well. Yeah, water to me is absolutely vital. And plenty of places to sit as well. Make sure you...
You've got loads of places, even if you take a chair with you, you know, a little spot where even if you put a slab down between two shrubs or something, you can put your chair there, just sit yourself back and look. And if you do that, you've got at different times of year, you'll see different aspects all the time.
You will, John. I mean, in our garden, we've got five separate sitting areas. Not big, but just more exactly as you say. I've got one where I've got a hibiscus on one side and I've got a viburnum meridia, that lovely flat-headed tiered one. And it's nestled in there. And it's just great. You can sit there in the evening. You've got the evening chorus and it's absolutely magic. So sitting area is important. Another thing in a summer garden is a lawn. And people, again, get sniffy about lawns.
A lawn to my mind is an essential part of the garden. Rod, you've got grandchildren, haven't you? If you don't have a lawn, what can you do? People get too worked up about it. A few daisies are great in a lawn. Pauline loves them. And I've got one area of daisies and she says, don't mow the daisies. We've left them now in Ireland in the middle of the lawn and it looks lovely. But if you make daisy chains, it's a poor thing if you can't make a daisy chain with your grandkids.
Leave that grass a little bit longer in the summer. So again, it retains the moisture, doesn't it, in the lawn itself. Don't shave it. And if you live in a country you're never going to get a bowl of green and I like a bit of speed well here and there it's that lovely blue colour and I'm probably not a purist but lawns are a lovely part of a garden
have a picnic or a barbecue or whatever I must say David being as my lawn is a bit nearer the house to me the further away from the house you get the more weeds or wildflowers you can have in it I do like immediately near the house I do like that looking nice and green because it shows off everything else you know if you've got a nice shrub or something you don't want your eye keep going down to the daisies or whatever but further away I mean I've got a fence and then the other side is the
wildlife garden and they have many daisies as you want in there so yeah fabulous
thank you for summer colour things like coming on perovskias I've got that coming on in the garden now that's just coming up nicely Lysimachia, I've got a couple, the only problem with Lysimachia is They're rhizomous, aren't they? And they don't run around the garden. Need to take a spade to those in the winter and dig them out. I've got lysomachia firecracker, which is purple foliage with a wonderful yellow flower. And that's going to be out pretty soon.
And I've got one I've got off Rosie Hardy, bless her. I phoned her and said, I've got lysomachia, it's barrystachys. It's a lovely white flower. And I phoned Rosie and said, this thing's all over the garden. I
got one from her as well. And I put it in, decided that I didn't like it because it was running everywhere. And so I took it out.
Yes.
Or thought I had. And now it's come back, but it's come up with these beautiful white flowers that you described. And I thought, actually, that kind of works. I'm going to leave it there. But yeah, you're right. You've got to keep
going. David, can I just ask, what do you think about putting bedding plants? You know, our bedding plants are so vivid, you know, the colours. Sometimes I think it's, you know, if you've got the shrubs and things like that, to me, it can be a little bit too much. And... That's why I go for ferns and more green things like hostas and stuff like that. But what do you think
about adding bedding? It depends what you put in, John. I mean, things like cosmos, I lose that. And that cosmos is wonderful. Exactly. Yes,
it's choosing
the right ones, isn't it? The other one I use a lot, nicotiana, tobacco plants. If you get the big old-fashioned one, you know, the big tall one, that is so fragrant in the evenings. Isn't it wonderful? It really It's a fantastic plant.
We've got a little border at the front. Cheryl's put spider plants and Tradescantia in. The trail in Tradescantia, and it's looking fabulous. So
there's plenty of things you can use. I mean, Antirhinums. Then you can get white, which is lovely as well, and some of the pink forms. Antirhinums are a lovely plant as a bedding plant. Yeah,
absolutely. The bride. That's a famous one, isn't it?
I do like geraniums. I've got big pots at the moment, white geraniums with zonal pelargoniums, the frostrate one, the sweeping one underneath it. It's going to look fabulous. The white's already out, but in mid-summer, that'll go right the way through until the first frost. Fabulous. But the one that does pop up too much in my garden is Lace esteria. It's a nice thing. Pheasantberry. I used to plant them for a pheasant cover, didn't I? Yeah. The Victorians.
Lovely thing, but it will self-seed everywhere. Really
well. But it's a lovely thing. Oh, it is. I always have one in the garden, David. I mean, the Victorians loved them, didn't they? They've gone so out of fashion, but I think they're fabulous. Interesting flower. That was all like a shrimp
flower, isn't it? So it's a lovely thing. It really is. If you want to fill a quick hole in a border, plant Lacisteria and it'll be up before you know it. It really will. And you can cut it hard down and it'll be up again the next
¶ Plants for Shade
year. So good plant.
And you mentioned shade, David, shaded areas. Any particular plants that work well in shade? Oh, loads. Of course,
John's ferns. And I've got loads of ferns under the magnolia as well. Certainly all the Brunneras. the forget-me-nots, basically. Jack Frost is one, but there are lots of very pale-leafed Brunneras, which just light up at sort of dark, shady areas, which are great. Things like, what else? Hostas, obviously, I've got underneath. Yep. Astrantias grow well in shade. I've got them in shade, and they're growing fine, absolutely no problem at all. And things like, oh, Persicarias.
A lot of the Persicarias do well in shade The fire tail I've got, which is quite a tall one. All the old bistorts, they're good in shade, all those sort of things. So no excuse not to have good planting in shade. Hydrangeas, I've got edge of shade, wonderful. I know John's got one of his favourites there, haven't
you, John? Yeah, yeah. Which is it? I love me hydrangeas. Hydrangea spera is what is absolutely fantastic. Hydrangea quercifolia, the oak leaf. Yeah, absolutely stunning when it's out. I give it, because I'm on alkaline soil here, I give it a little bit of a few sulfur chips just to keep the soil slightly on the acid side. And they love it. They absolutely love it.
Lobelias as well. I've got Lobelia syphilitica, which is a funny one, funny name. It was used. for treating syphilis as a herbal. So, yeah. What's in a plant name? There's
all sorts of things in a plant name. If we went into plant names, David, we could bring the house down.
That's right. So, shade is not a problem. In fact, you know, shade is a blessing. Really, in many ways, it retains the moisture. Plants last well in shade. Just pick your plants. There's no excuse with Mr. Google now. All you've got to do is to pop in shade-loving plants, and it comes up with a whole list of them, size, shape,
aspect. Well, we can go further than that. Now we've got AI. Just ask your AI if you're into that sort of thing. They'll give you chapter and verse and tell you how to plant it and what you need. You guys might be redundant in another 50 years where things are going.
What a horrible world to live in. What a horrible world to live in. Interesting. I remember once somebody asked me, when I was having a bit of fun, somebody asked me for a nice grey-stemmed um plant and i says you want to go for rubus cockburnianus
oh yes
yeah
excuse me
pardon says no it's a plant it's an
actual plant that's a lovely one lovely one to give winter interest because it's got this silvering silver branches isn't it
yeah cambridge there's one in cambridge botanic gardens in their winter garden fabulous yeah it's a good plant yeah
yeah
On that note, gents, it's always an education. And already I've made notes that I've got things to do instantly as soon as I'm out of this studio. I'm going to clear away some of those herbaceous and start thinking about other plants to put in there. So, yeah. So just to summarize,
¶ Three Top Tips from David
if we're on this particular section, David, go for it. Three key points.
Key points, really, I think one of the main ones is moisture retention in your soil. So mulch well, top dress if you need to in a gravelly area, helps to retain the moisture. Certainly think about successional colour through the summer. Don't just think about monoplanting, as it were. Think about reversals, so one colour against another, one shape against another. And I think the final thing would be try something different.
like my rain chain that comes down from the gutter and just sparkles down to little old galvanized steel tank. So something
a little bit different. And my practical is to, when you are staking plants, Start when they're quite small. Don't wait till the wind blows them over when they're four feet tall and they're bent over. Because they don't very often go back again.
Or you do that thing where you come out and you say, oh, look, it's getting too tall. And bend it so that you can fit it back underneath the support. And then wonder why it's snapped in half.
Yeah, so as soon as they need it. you know, and there's some great, there's some great staking things now. I know David loves his, his iron, his metal, I'd
buy them down at Fakenham Market. That's the best ones for me.
The other day he was asking, where is he? Where is he,
David? But they're invisible, really. I love those. You can just plonk them around a plant. I've done it already. The one thing I now ask for birthday presents and Christmas presents are plant supports. You can't have too many of them. You really can't. Absolutely.
That's so true. Gents, it's such
¶ ...And One from John
a pleasure as always. David, thank you so much for your time and don't be a stranger and all that. Absolute pleasure. I dare say we'll get together with our Christmas hats on. I really must get one this year. I always seem to be the only one out. Okay, lovely to talk to you and thanks for listening and if there's any questions you'd like to ask us, just get in touch.
You'll see all the details on the site and do check out our Facebook group, Loving your garden we're up to nearly half a million members now internationally and it is lovely just it's such a pleasure seeing all those gardens and there are some fantastic gardens on there a constant source of inspiration and people are very friendly very willing to give their time and advice so check it out that's it thanks very much indeed see you again soon happy gardening
bye goodbye
music
Thank you.