Is Kink Being Normalized or Is It Just Going Viral?

You're listening to the Loving BDSM podcast episode four fifty three. K. The Lord's here with the one, the only, the you're perky. You're doing good. But, man, you got a little eye swelling, and I it makes heart hurt for you, John Brownstone. Yeah. I know. You look miserable. Do you feel miserable? It it comes and goes. Mhmm. So, yeah, I haven't had a bit of a allergic reaction to some wood. Yes. Which is not the first time it's happened. No. Hopefully, it'll be the last. Yeah. We're

working on it. I think this is, I think I finally dredged the last piece of that wood out of the shop now. And then I didn't let you touch it again while you were having your allergic reaction. This has nothing to do with the topic, but I I have to say this. JB's like, this wood, this is the wood I think is causing my allergic reaction. I'm gonna toss it over, blah blah blah. Yeah. I was like, okay. And I didn't think anything

of it. And then, like, I don't know, half a day later, full day, I don't know. I went, wait. How about I walk the wood out there? How about I put it in my hands and touch it and toss it and get rid of it? How about you don't get anywhere near it? He was like, oh, yeah. You know, it's funny. Every it seems every woodworker has a wood that is their kryptonite. And this one is yours? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I tossed it. Oh, you did. Thank you. I mean, I I put some, like, oomph

into it. It went flying. It's gone. Back in the woods where it belongs. Not on our property. Right. Anyway, that's that's not what we're here for, but I just, you know Yeah. Wanted to share. I've been I've been desperate to tell somebody that story. Okay. What we're actually talking, about this week is the, and I'm air quoting this, normalization and, mainstreaming of kink, if that's what's happening or if kink just keeps going viral in the weirdest ways. Or maybe it's a little bit of both.

Who the hell knows? Welcome to the Loving BDSM podcast. If this is your first time listening, glad to have you. If you're back for another week, welcome back. Loving BDSM is produced every Friday for your kinky pleasure in education, and show notes are found at lovingbdsm.net. Come back often and feel free to add the podcast to your favorite podcast app. You can also follow the show on FetLife at loving BDSM PC on Instagram, and technically threads at that handle I will forever motherfucking

hate. Oh my god. It makes me so mad to even think about. That handle is loving d s and the number one, so it's at loving d s one. On Blue Sky at loving b d s m dot blah blah blah blah, whatever comes after that on Blue Sky, I don't care. It's fine. It's easy to find. Over on YouTube at youtube.com/lovingbdsm where you can watch us live stream the podcast every Wednesday. All links are in the show notes. Big thanks as always to our kinky patrons over on Patreon, including our newest

peeps. We, get to keep being fucking weirdos on the Internet because of our, kinky community on Patreon. Mhmm. And we are grateful for every fucking body over there. Oh my god. If you would like to join our kinky community, help us keep being weirdos on the Internet, and get access to extra content in a Discord super server a Discord server? What are words with a group of super cool kinksters? You could do that. Just go to patreon.com/kaylalords.

That's patreon.com/kaylalords, or use the link in the show notes. There you go. I'm not even noticing the heat. So okay. So before we get into the topic, I have one announcement. Just the one. It's very simple. It is no longer Labor Day here in The United States, but our Labor Day sale is still a thing, and it is happening. And you could save 15% off, at the kinkery. Thekinkery.com. Don't mind Lola's snorty Yeah. Nasal sounds. I didn't even know what that was myself. It

was a little gross. Yeah. It was giving old man wakes up first thing in the morning and has to clear a lung. That's what it was giving. Thanks for helping me promote the cankery, Lola, thecankery.com. 15% off with the coupon code labor day twenty five, all one word, no spaces. That runs through 11:50 fifty nine PM eastern this Friday, September 5. So for podcast listeners, it is literally the day that this Mhmm. Episode goes live. You did a big paddle restock. We have

sold out of some things. We are still working on restocks. Mhmm. It is my hope. Fingers crossed that we can maybe get a small little restocks in before the end of the sale. Yeah. But we're working on it. We're doing our best. Okay. That is the announcement. Cool. Okay. So the pressure is on. Uh-oh. This topic was one I wanted to make sure I knew what the hell I was trying to talk about. I,

sat down. I lost actual time. Time had no meaning for a couple of hours while I got my thoughts together, and I read some articles, and I watched some videos and to compile so many notes. This is a note heavy episode. I have to look at what because I won't nope. Don't do not count on Swiss cheese brain to remember this on its own. I gotta I gotta look at the my thing. My Google Doc. What are words? See? I'm already there. And the conversation about the

again, heavy on the air quotes. Normalization of kink is not a new one. Mhmm. It's not a new one in the twenty twenties. It's not a new one ever. And we will get into that a little bit as we kinda go down this. I was going over these notes with JB, and I was telling him some of the things that have sort of, like, gone viral. And his eyebrows went all the way up to the top of his forehead. I was like, this is what you get

for not being on TikTok. I'm not on TikTok either, but I still am kind of paying attention. And that's where this episode came from because within about a week's time, like, from one Friday to the next Friday, I saw two articles come through and I went, what the hell is happening out there in the world? The first and this was not new information. We had seen this years ago ago that the act of choking, not what kinksters would consider, like, erotic asphyxiation, but, like, strangulation

Mhmm. Of a partner, typically heterosexual sex, but not always, without talking about it, without consent is depending on the surveys you see, is way up in young people having sex. I've seen different reports over the years from, like, forty percent to sixty percent. Like, people just expect it to happen now, apparently. That's terrifying.

And the article I saw was that it has it's now so normalized that UK sex ed, like, criteria, I guess, that they put together, now requires there be some requires there be some, like, lesson on, actually, don't just choke a partner out of nowhere. You could kill them. Like, there's, like, a whole part. So that was one article. And then the next article I saw, and I think I saw the choking before I saw the second one. And the you know I know that titles

are clickbait. They need they need clicks. They need eyes on that. So these sites make their money. I get it. I get it. I get it. But basically it was how spitting into your partner's open mouth without conversation and consent is air quote normal now. And it's like And that's once I saw that article that was not the the that was first time I saw it, but that was not the last time. It's come up a few times since then in the different places where I'm consuming media.

Now, spitting, choking, they are not that's not BDSM as a whole. Those are acts that can be sexualized. They might come under the umbrella of BDSM. They might just be part of, you know, rough sex. I think it becomes semantics about how you wanna classify those things. But those things are heavily associated with kinky things. And so to, you know, it makes sense that this is part of the conversation. Mhmm. So that's where the idea for this episode was born.

Because I was like, what is happening here? What the because first I was like, go UK for, like, you know, recognizing this is a big issue and, like, putting some kind of something into their educational system. America could never. We just no. No. There's comprehensive sex ed. Why would we do that? Now The UK system is not perfect. There's a lot of shit that's come out of The UK that's transphobic and like just awful awful. Thanks, Quinn. I I got your email by the way for reminding me of that.

But that one little like sliver was needed. It's necessary, but it's just part of an overall thing where we are now currently in one of many cycles Mhmm. Of conversation over the air quote normalization of BDSM. So kinda wanted to talk about it because the things that I have been aware of in my current view before you and I have a conversation and we can kinda think through so many things, I don't see it

as a normalization of BDSM. I see it as, virality and porn and lack of sex ed. And there's a lot of reasons these things are, like, proliferating, but it's not because anybody's like, oh, shucks. We're all kinky now. Are we? Are we? So that's kind of, you know Mhmm. Mhmm. The premise I had, and I put this in my notes because Swiss cheese brain, was that is kink actually being normalized

in this way? The acts of kink, the certain topics we're gonna cover that have kind of come up over the past couple years? Or is it being co opted? Is it being co opted as a promotional thing? Is it being co opted because there's virality to it and you'll get big numbers if you just say a thing on the Internet whether there's any truth behind it? Like, I don't think that this episode is gonna answer that question and I think it's a very nuanced

conversation because it's it's all context dependent. Right? A lot of what I'm gonna point out is not started maybe it's maybe it was started by, but it's not really content created by or directed by the actual kink community. This is not kink content creators creating a viral trend. This is not, you know, kink talk necessarily. It's more like it seems like some things, like, left out of kink talk because a lot of it does start on TikTok these

days. And, like, was, like, let loose in the wild and bad things just happened from there. Okay? So, I do not think that whatever we end up thinking in this moment is one, the thing will think forever. Two, the only way to see this kind of topic and to see these situations. Because as with all things, with kink in the genuine, like, oh, I'm kind of interested, versus just what gets put out on the Internet.

You know, the the meaning behind it, the way it can be interpreted, how it's viewed is as varied as the people viewing it, right, and consuming that content. So I don't I'm not saying I'm gonna have any answers, but let's let's talk about it. So notes. So this is I've said this already. I definitely wanted to bring this up because it was interesting for trying to get my information together for this episode. And that is the conversation about the normalization of kink

is not a new one. It did not happen because TikTok got big. It did not happen because everybody was bored at home during a pandemic. Like, that's that's not where this originates from. I would imagine if I had access to historical documents from, like, the time of the Marquis de Saad or something Mhmm. Somebody wrote a pamphlet or a newspaper thing that went, oh my god. These, you know, taboo, nefarious,

sexual things are taking over society. Like, there was somebody who, like, discovered a thing and went, oh, no. Everybody's clearly into it because I learned this thing. Right? But when I was just doing my searches Mhmm. To kinda figure out, okay. Well, I know I've seen some things. What can I, like, pull together? I had to be very careful because this conversation in the twenty first century minimum,

right, is cyclical. Mhmm. Almost from what I could gather from time stamps, dates, every time something kinky hits the mainstream Mhmm. Either in a positive way or in a pearl clutchy way, everybody's now talking about the air quote normalization of kink. And that and that goes back, I mean, even to, you know, when when the the Gore books were published. Mhmm. Here's something I I did not know.

I just found out today. I was today years old when I found out that, Anne Rice, wrote Beauty and the Beast in 1980. Okay. I did not realize it was that long ago. Me either. I I thought it was, you know, much I thought it was, like, late nineties. Okay. But no. Apparently, it was 1980 she wrote that. Wow. She actually start wrote the first book. Right. Right. Right. She started it or Mhmm. She got it published, the first one published, which means she probably started it in the seventies.

Very possible. The story of O. I think that movie came out in the seventies. Yeah? I believe so. Does that sound about right? Yes. I I think so. Would love to see newspaper articles from that time. Somebody wrote a pearl clutchy thing about that. I'm sure. Yeah. So in the twenty first century, the the several things came up. But the one that caught my eye was two separate times, same topic, when the 50 Shades books blew up and it felt like everybody in

their, you know, mother was reading them. Oh my gosh. I was still working in an office then and So beside And the ladies were like, wild. They they were all every one of them Yeah. In my department was reading those books. And then when the movies came out Yeah. Slightly different conversation. There was the added, kind of ick effect of was this actually a good movie. Let's like we're not even talking about the story, the writing. Like was

the movie good? Matter of opinion. I did not watch them because I cannot handle that much secondhand embarrassment. That's too much for my body to handle. It's just not gonna be good. So that's just a semi recent example. And I say semi recent example. And I say semi recent because most kinksters who've, you know, are mid thirties on older are aware at, you know, 50 Shades kind

of phenomenon. And a lot of people figured out they were kinky because these not so wonderfully written books and not so wonderfully written or acted. I don't know. But movies, they it was huge. Right? And I you know, my impression and again, there's so many ways people reacted and reasons for it. But I know there was a lot of, oh my gosh. Right? The taboo brought forward not in a way that many of us who are like trying to live this life kind of recognize or like that it's a caricature.

That's how that is you know there's not a single piece of media that will ever be created about kink good or bad that is gonna encompass a broad enough experience. Every once in a while, we get that and we're like, oh, cool. And then there's somebody on a subreddit somewhere telling you about how it's actually the worst ever. That's just how media is. Yeah. So, yes. I lost it. But that was my point was that, you know, we can see this. But that's what it was. Got it

back. 50 Shades brought a lot of kinky people into kink community. Yes. Did it send plenty of people to the ER because they tried shit and they use these books as how to manuals? Yes. And it it helped a lot of people go, hey, wait. There's something here. It did.

I'm interested in this. Now, what what I will say about that, and and and kudos to the West Pasco community at that time, When the book came out and they exploded in popularity, some of the community leaders, they actually devised a plan of how to educate these people when they start because they did start showing up at munches and at and at the dungeons and things like that. And, you know, they're they were they were thinking, you know, it's all this movie fun

stuff. Everybody's got a red room. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And, you know, one of one of the things that they discussed, and they actually had it all laid out was, you know, how to how to, you know, educate these people about the safety and what this is really all about. Right. And I think I'm I am positive that

there are more differences than this. But a difference that comes to mind from that little innocent time we were alive in the 2010, 2012, earlier than that kind of around that time era versus now is that right now, what goes viral, what gets the attention, what then can change behavior for there's porn that's always there. We know that. But something goes viral on TikTok, it's probably a video that's a minute, maybe two minutes.

I know you can do longer form on TikTok, but the the catchiness of it, the lack of nuance, the, you know, somebody put some words over there while they looked off into the middle distance and a song was playing in the background and, you know, there was no discussion and people picked it

up and and ran with it. Mhmm. And people are deriving meaning from things that they get nowhere near enough content or context about so that I have no doubt there are people out there doing some of these kinky things, talking about some of these things, that we would consider, like, to be, you know, to to be very specific to the kink community and and there be, like, kind of specific conversations to have around them, and they get

none of that. But they might not necessarily be rocking up to the munch or the dungeon or the one zero one workshop. I'm I think some people probably are. I think this is just another gateway for some people. Mhmm. But Oh, yeah. From my limited view, what I have seen has been a lot of co opting language, whether to be edgy, whether to try and, you know, jump on a trend, whether because you wanna seem like you know something, whatever it might be, and having none of the other to go with

it. Yeah. Yeah. Which I can see why some of what's happening more today is a can feel a little bit more nefarious because it's not coming from a book that tried to lay out a fantasy version, like hundreds and hundreds, thousands of words to kinda tell Mhmm. Maybe not well, but to kinda tell you a story versus ten seconds, five words, and and just the comments going wild or something. Right? And things getting picked up and stripped down for parts to be repackaged,

and now none of it means anything. Right? But people are using language or they're doing things based on impressions they kind of got from what they think somebody might have meant. And, you know, I that's an added layer Yeah. In in the the, age of TikTok. That is not helpful to anybody. But also, like, I felt this way about

50 shades. I feel this way now. If you come across kink, your first intro to kink is an imperfect piece of media that maybe you learn a wrong thing from and make some mistakes from, but that was your introduction and it sparked something in you to go, hey. Hey. Woah. This I need to go do more, learn more, find out more. I think that's fine. Like I do think I want those people to be careful but they don't know yet to even have somebody to talk to to

tell them to be careful. Right. So it's like, it's just another avenue for people to come into the lifestyle, discover themselves a little bit more. And and see, I think that's, while having the Internet available to seek out and search things, it it's a marvelous thing. Having having that supercomputer in your fingers is amazing. I love it. Okay? Never thought I'd see a day like this, but here it is. Oh, yeah. You know?

But it is also the downside to it because you know we are in an age with social media anybody can get out there and say anything. And they do. And they do. And they do. And they do. You know? And, you know, I think a lot of people do these things, these videos, because they wanna go viral. They wanna be be edgy, they wanna shock people. They want the numbers, they wanna make money on TikTok Right. Whatever it is. Yeah. And, you know, there again too. That is not the way to find out about kink.

It's not a helpful way. No. It's it's not helpful or healthy because, you know, you are you were just getting that snapshot. And it's not even that. It's less than a snapshot. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you you do not know what is involved, you know, under the hood so to speak. Mhmm. So, you know, that that can be

dangerous. But it's no different than it's just a new aspect of, you know, careful what you consume in porn, careful what you see in movies, you know, careful what you read in erotica, it's not real. It it's another extension of that. Mhmm. And, you know, then you gotta weed that shit out. Right. And you have to have enough media literacy to do that. You have to have some maturity for it. Like, some Mhmm. I mean, TikTok, it everybody uses TikTok. I don't use TikTok. But, like, every

part of humanity uses TikTok. But if you got access to Mhmm. Internet connection, somebody in your cohort uses fucking TikTok. But it is still kind of known primarily for young people, maybe not always teenagers, but young people are on TikTok. And so many of them do not have the experience yet to discern between like, you might be a digital native, but that don't mean you can always tell. You can't we can't all always tell when AI's got us. We can't all always tell

when we're being, like, like bullshit. I I got a phone call this afternoon that made me go, is this real or is this not? And I I had to sit down for a minute and look into some things and turns out it was a freaking scam and It usually is. In this day and age, it usually is. Right. And that's the thing. I could see content creators making the justification that this is for entertainment purposes only because books are for entertainment,

movies are for entertainment. And I I kind of can't have a I don't have a good argument against that because that is true. Mhmm. You can put out content for whatever reason you do and you cannot control what people take from it and how it gets That's true. You know, regurgitated and and reused and how, you know, how it gets morphed into something else that even you didn't intend. You were like, I just wanted the numbers and that was a trending sound and

Excuse me. Whatever, you know. Mhmm. Mhmm. And so I don't think any of these things are good or bad. I do think that, you know, more of us need to be more aware of them. Mhmm. Not necessarily for

ourselves as kinksters. I mean, if you are at a point where you are consuming an hour plus of just our podcast, you are getting and we can't tell you everything and are not trying to but you're getting enough context to be able to probably go that that sounds like some bullshit in this TikTok, in this reel, in this whatever. Right? So and that's just bare minimum. So if you're out there following you know other kink creators and you're watching other content, you're doing all this other stuff.

You are probably not the one who needs this but many of us have, you know, we're raising kids, we got teenagers in our lives, we got people around us, so we have to kind of hold their precious little innocent hand and go, honey, not everything is real. We also have to do that with our older parents who think everything posted to Facebook is real but that's a different conversation for another day.

So that's some of that landscape that some of the like bigger thoughts I should have said at the top but I didn't put it in my notes and that's how I forgot. But I'm gonna say it here. Okay. Because we're gonna get into specifics and you're gonna be like, well, how the fuck do you know this? I got links y'all. I got resources. I watched bits and pieces of two of Evie Lupine's videos, including a very recent one from like a month ago as of recording about Tradwives

and air quote day callers. Oh, lord. You told me about that. I have linked to her videos. I've linked to the articles I'm gonna mention definitely going forward in the notes. The two articles that made me go, what the hell is happening to kinky acts and why are people doing this? Those are linked. So anything you might be interested in in, and anything we mentioned especially here on out, the links are there. Okay. So I this is not this is not comprehensive. I'm sure

it's not. It's just the ones that kind of hit sort of a zeitgeist in some way. Okay? So I'm let's go through this. The spitting and the choking, we know where that comes from. A lot of that does come from porn. Yes. But once things kind of come out of porn and just sort of get talked about on main Mhmm. I my algorithm, most the time is a lot of, erotic writers or, you know, dark romance readers. They don't like to call themselves erotic readers, but Yeah. Romance readers, smart readers. And the

sheer amount two things. The sheer amount of video content specifically reels that used to be TikToks whatever where the thirst trap or the the hook is choking is the hand around like, look, look y'all. I'll melt into a kinky little puddle when his hand goes around my throat consensually. But I have the context and the background and some of the like experience. Right? And then I see it when I'm reading some of the smut. Some that considers itself very dark and I'm like, I would expect

this in dark. And some that does not. They just think putting the hand around your throat while fucking is normal. Okay? I read one that was, like, right on the edge between probably I don't remember if it designated itself dark romance, but it could have, but not completely. And like part of the draw, part of the kink was she wanted to see black spots in front of her eyeballs and I was like, that's cool but could you have a conversation

about it? Right. So it's not just TikTok and it's not and it's not just porn. It's kind of choking has kind of gone out everywhere and it's sort of infiltrating. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's no different. You know, you you you talk about the spitting. Up to a girl. I know. Okay? I know. I mean that. Hilarious in that. I mean that Gotta spit on that thing. I'm not, but you can. You better not. It's not my thing. That's not my thing either. That's not my thing either.

No. As I've told you, I like if the the vibe is right in a piece of smart I'm reading Mhmm. I can accept and I can find it hot. In that, it's arms length. It fits with the context. I don't want it for myself, but, yeah, that makes sense for this moment. Hell, yeah. And apparently, spitting was one of the things I did have a moment TikTok and then went to Instagram Yeah. Where it and I it might even still be

a little bit. It was trending as a, you know, a way to talk about dark romance, a way to, like, do, like, talk about be edgy on the Internet. Like, there's all wick kinds of ways to create content. But spinning was one of them too. And I have seen that filter into and I see from a smart reader perspective Mhmm. Because I don't get the opportunity to read a lot of kink specific books because I don't like contemporary as a genre. I prefer fantasy or historical or

whatever. I like Don't put me in the fucking world we live in now. It's too stressful. I wanna know the world. So I don't read a lot of like BDSM themed smut. I read some of it but not a lot. And I see these kink things come like come into this smut. It's not talked about like it's kink. It's not treated like it's kink. It's treated like it's normal except there's almost never a conversation about it. And that doesn't just come from nowhere. And who's the cart? Who's the horse? I don't

fucking know. Who's the chicken? Who's the egg? I don't know. Porn really is probably the birthplace of the proliferation of it, of the normalization of Yes. This is what people do during sex. Because, you know, almost none of us have ever gotten comprehensive sex ed. And we think what we see in porn is, like, what you're supposed to do. What you're supposed to do. Oh, my god. Right. I mean, I didn't I I you know, not to I I had no sex ed growing up as a kid. Nah. No. I Okay. Time

frame, you grew up hell. No. You didn't. My my parents told me nothing. The things I found out were from other kids. And when I can get my hands on a a playboy or penthouse magazine. Mhmm. I was just talking to the youngest therapist about this, not because of this specific topic, but it came up in another conversation. I still lived in Florida when Florida gave a fuck and wasn't run by the total loony tunes. And we had sex Like, we had age appropriate sex at

around fourth grade, fourth or fifth grade. And then when you hit eighth grade biology and you hit that portion, nobody, like, shied away from it. Not in the schools that I attended. And so in the early ish nineties, at least in the school the school district not very far from here actually, they were talking about it openly. I remember the banana and the condom. We were not allowed to do our own. But that teacher had that banana and that condom. Yeah. And she brought in a

speaker and like all kinds of stuff. And then I moved away to Mississippi where they were like, no. We we just pretend sex doesn't happen. We don't know why all the teens are are pregnant. It's a mystery. And by the time we came back to Florida, that had been kind of knocked out. There's some sex ed, but it tends to be abstinent based or focused, you know. Yeah. So I

get it. I get why people are drawn to the the things that, you know I'm gonna say taboo over and over again because I can't think of another word because of Swiss cheese brain. Mhmm. But, like, the the things that you're not supposed to have, the illicit things that are, like, you'd get in trouble if anybody knew you had this, but it's it's speaking to desires you have. It's giving you, an image to kinda go, oh, that's what that looks like, but no fucking context.

And so we go from, you know, Playboy magazines and, you know, Victoria's Secret catalogs and up to now the fucking Internet. And it's splintered from there where you still have the fucking porn and you have the the not ethical, please don't watch free porn. I get you wanna save a buck or 2, but it's not the good porn. It's not the kind you can just go pay for your porn if you can. But then it splinters off from there until there's books and that's fine. And there's movies

and that's fine. Mhmm. And now we've got short form content where it's diluted so far down. It's it loses all meaning, and now it's just trendy. It's just cute Mhmm. To, you know, talk about spitting in your partner's mouth without a fucking conversation first. You you know, the the the choking thing, that has been around A long time. A long time. I mean, my gosh. Who was, like, one of the I can't remember exactly,

you know, first thing goes memory. One of the carotenes, Died in a hotel, I think, doing, you know, doing the erotic asphyxiation. You know, because it is it is the quickest way to play with danger in your sex life. Yeah. I mean, blocking someone's hair, that's that's as on the edge, I think, as you could kinda get Yeah. Without needing, like, a lot of equipment. Right? Mhmm. And it's yeah. It's a shorthand for But, you know, that's what makes

this so dangerous. Mhmm. You know, as a as a person who is in the kink community, you know, we we're mired in this stuff, I guess. You know, we're we're saturated in it. We understand there are risks in everything we do. Alright. I have to assess the risks of the things I do. You have to assess the risks of what I'm doing to you. Mhmm. Okay? And, you know, this kind of thing, it, you know, you get none of that. No. You You know? That that's why I say you just get this little

snapshot. Mhmm. Mhmm. And not everything else that has to, you know, that that goes with it. So then it's rendered meaningless. Yeah. Then it's just the silly little thing you do. Right. And and the, you know, those of us who are paying attention, the people who study this kind of thing, the, you know, the people who have to help people that have been harmed after that, we are making the connections of what the fuck's

happening. But in the moment, when it's ten seconds of your life and then you scrolled on, you know, the people aren't necessarily connecting those dots because they don't have the context. Right. I'm gonna get to that because Evie said a brilliant thing in a video and I fucking wrote it down. Anyway, next on our list, this one, probably is still around a little bit. Did we freeze? Yes. We know we lost it. Oh, we lost it. Hopefully, the the the audio is still there.

Podcast listeners, you get to hear me fill dead air while JB gets the camera back on. And, yay, I love these streams like this. These are the days when I'm like, let's just do audio only. So tired of tech problems. Okay. Yeah. So, Video should be back in a moment. The delay between audio video and the stream is always interesting. Okay. So See. The next one on the list Boom. I think it hit the height of its popularity around 2023. It's probably still

around. I vaguely remember conversations online about this, and that's free use. Mhmm. Now I couldn't find anything that sort of, like, was really definitive about where did that like, who started that. But I wanna say it's in Vice did an article about was it the free use? Yes. Free use. And they made a point in that one. They were there's a couple articles linked by from Vice talking about some of this. And I believe it was in the free

use article. They made the point to say that some of the some of the videos on the beginning side of the trend as things were going viral, not all, but some are actually made by OnlyFans creators who are trying to Mhmm. In a subtle way, get attention, go viral for people who, like, would be their core audience so they can get people over to their OnlyFans and grow their audience that way. And that's a time honored marketing tradition. I'm not shitting on it. Right?

And I actually Excuse me, folks. Sorry. Do do I need to burp you? I actually saw one today that was done in the vein of the way Vice described the free use ones Mhmm. Of an OnlyFans creator who is it's video of them looking super cute, super sexy, whatever. Mhmm. And they'll have text over it, over the image that kinda can be a little vanilla shaming. And that was, a video Evie did about vanilla shaming, kink

shaming, the air quote normalization of kink. I think it was kind of happening at the same time as this for use conversation or there was some overlap. Because what they would say is, oh, well, you know, your your wife would never just let you, you know, do whatever you want, but I would. And it's it's a way to grab attention, but it brought and that is only one way that it was done. There are other ways we were talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. But it brought this concept of free use, like, into

the mix. And I remember seeing kink, you know, content creators and educators going, woah, woah, woah. We need to fucking talk about free use. What we I think we did an episode on free use because it just kept coming up. Mhmm. But I saw of TikTok that's now on reels and that's how I saw it Mhmm. Today of somebody who I believe I did not confirm this, but I believe they're an OnlyFans creator. And there's not a fucking thing wrong with being

an OnlyFans creator. And there's not a thing wrong marketing yourself on platforms that will not let you be fucking explicit. So you gotta like be teasy and flirty. There's nothing wrong with this but this is one avenue to how we get here. And in that one, the person was looking super, super sexy. Sexy. All they had on was a towel. Their shoulders were bare. You couldn't see cleavage because the the text was, I'm I'm a modest girl. I would never just let you see my size l

breasts on the internet. And it's all supposed to be tongue in cheek. And I Mhmm. Had to, like, I had to read about it to understand it was tongue in cheek. Prior to reading the Vice article on the free use content, I'd have been like, but then why are you talking about it? But that's all and so sometimes sometimes some of these terms come in to to this ecosystem of short form content that goes viral because the the concept was introduced

in one meeting meeting. Meaning Mhmm. Which is, you know, I'm I'm being a little cheeky. I'm being a little flirty and, you know, I'm I'm playing into your fantasies. Don't you wanna subscribe to my page or whatever. Right? Right. But then it gets picked up by somebody. And now, other people for their own reasons, but one of those reasons will be, I wanna go viral too,

are running with it. Yeah. Well, you know, I I mean, you know, look at the trends that have gone between TikTok and Instagram, you know, and and one starts and it it's just like an avalanche. What was it? The the, ice one for a while there with you know, it was people dumping ice every, you know. Well, they did it. I gotta do it. You know? Yes. Yes. And there is a lot of of the copycat thing. Yeah. There's, wanting to join in, wanting to be like somebody Mhmm.

Wanting to have the perceived fucking one of them has to do with kink. None of it. But we're pulling in these concepts that have deep meaning, that have deep carry deep risk, that require thought and conversation and consent and negotiation. And it's just this cutesy little trend. And and Silent knew the episode was free use in blanket consent and power exchange episode three eighty. That's why Silent is our Historian. Yep. Thank you. So the next one on my list, we did the

the the conversation, and that's Princess Treatment. Mhmm. Now Princess Treatment, I don't think it came about and the person who, you know, seemed to be like the air quote start, they were not coming at it from a kink perspective. They were not coming at it from a, I'm just trying to go viral. They were like, this is this is what I do when I'm, you know, whatever whatever whatever their

motivations were. It wasn't because they were making lots of content and longer content to just talk about Princess Treatment. And the concept of Princess Treatment, I think, hit a nerve with, you know, typically but not always, cis women who want to feel taken care of and special and Mhmm. You know, whatever whatever. But what was happening, it was the reason we talked about it, is that some, not all, were conflating it with power exchange. Because princess is a term that gets used.

Yeah. Because the concept of being taken care of by, in that person's case, her husband, you know, there's a a semi parallel to a dom taking care of a sub. Mhmm. And so that was one where it was its own concept, but people were actually making the connections Right. And going, oh, is this, like, kinked to the point that some people, not all, but some people were, like, oh, that's a kink thing that somebody the vanillas just took.

And it's like, actually, no. It's actually how people some people, regardless of flavor of relationship or titles they use with one another, just want to be fucking treated. You know what I mean? It's like, it's a lane of human experience. Mhmm. It's not the lane. It's not the lane. It's not the only way, but it's the gateway. And it usually feeds something that you're craving that you didn't get from somewhere else or you're you're not getting any other way. And, you know, it's it's

funny. I heard somebody talking about this, you know, and they were saying how they were a princess. And they were like, you know, why wouldn't you wanna be the queen? And like, oh, no. Queen has responsibilities and has to do the hardship. I wanna be the princess and have fun. When I'm in my baby girl mode, I too wanna be the princess. When my control issues rear their ugly head, I'm the fucking queen because I'm a get shit done. Okay? And this could be done right.

Right. Apparently, I have many different sides to myself. So Prince's treatment was was one that the And I don't know how many kinky people made the connection versus how many, you know, maybe non kinksters who had read read some kinky smud or had heard a thing or like made their own connections. I have no way of knowing that.

But that that would be actually interesting to me is where who not who was an an individual, but which cohorts of people were making those connections and making those claims. Was it just kinky people? Was it somebody who knew three words about kinky and went here, I'm a sound smart, I'm a say this. Yeah. Who knows? Probably, yes, everybody. But that is one where, you know, Princess Treatment blew up for a while. Mhmm. And then the the parallels that some, not all, were making to kink

rose at about the same time. Right? Because then there was a lot a little bit more conversation about caregiver doms and, you know, littles and print and like Right. And then the the opposite side, which we did not spend a lot of time on in our episode, but we did briefly mention it and then it got mentioned in the comments of that episode, which is, you know, the treatment that they're being described. Like, we even said

it. Like, that's more Dom stuff. You want your partner to do shit for you and to take care of you Right. So that you don't have to do these things. And that, you know, if you're gonna make that connection Mhmm. Is yeah. It's more of a top or Dom kind of behavior. Yeah. I mean, in a sense though, the the princess treatment to to a certain extent, I don't really see that as a something that's being appropriated. No. I don't either. Okay. I don't either. You know, come on. Let's face it.

Kids have wanted to be Disney princesses since, I still won't. I don't. I don't. I wanna be oh my god. I cannot think of her name right now, but in Wreck It Ralph, Oh, You know who I'm Penelope. Yes. But it's not Penelope. It's Penelope. Vanellope. Yes. That's the kind of fucking Disney princess I wanna be. Give me a hoodie. I probably have something in my hair. My jeans are ripped. I'm not wearing jeans. I'm wearing leggings. But you know what I mean? Yeah. I yeah. I can see that in

you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're the rough and tumble, But I added it to this list because the conversation about just Princess treatment grew so big that it pulled in. You know, kinky people were pulled into the conversation because of random comments people were making that, you know, whatever. Now, here's the last one on the list. It might not be the last thing out there. It might not be the most current. It is the one that made my eyeballs almost pop out of

my fucking head. And Evie did a video on it. You totally need to go see it. I've linked it. It's Tradwives, which if you don't know what that is, like, give me a second. Tradwives wearing day collars. Okay. You you just told me about this the other day, and that was totally new. Yeah. Because you were not on that side of the fucking algorithm. No. I've got I'm not. One, I I my, TikTok account Right. No. And I I see stuff when it trickles down to Instagram anyway.

Three weeks away. And and I try to not be on too much social media right now. Right. Yeah. Okay. So for anybody who is aware and I'm not gonna give a perfect definition. Okay. But it's the way I understand a trad wife and some of my thoughts on trad wives. So trad wives Mhmm. Is an Internet phenomenon because that's where this term comes from and that's where the content comes from. So people know what it air quote looks like air quote that to be a trad wife. Okay. Trad wives

are in general not always. There are exceptions to this. Mhmm. Christian conservatives, they tend to be further on the right that they are, cisgender, heterosexual, they're married. The the wife has a husband. Her air quote purpose Mhmm. Purpose is to submit to her husband, to take care of the home, to take care of any children they may have, to move at a slower pace of life. I think all of that is perfectly fine, like a thing to aspire to, the slower pace of life to focus on home

and children. There's not a fucking thing wrong with that. There is in some of the things I have seen this whole women are supposed to automatically submit to their husbands, blah blah blah. Yeah. And go ahead. Now see, I had a little different, version of Bad Life from what I And there are different, there are different versions. There's a nuance to it. Yeah. You know, and and that basically somebody who has a little bit of money married somebody

That's the reality you're talking about. So Yeah. What's happening is the Internet is being sold this picture of Mhmm. The this wife stays home. She makes shit from scratch. The Yeah. The, funny but also terrifying one is they made Cinnamon Toast Crunch from hand because I would never let my look. You can do that in your fucking life, but then don't preach to everybody about how your way is the way of life and it's the

only way of life. Also, the false thing here that the folks who are living this life, even if maybe they don't call themselves a trad wife, they just fall under the umbrella, is they say, well, as a as a wife, as a mother Mhmm. I don't need a job outside of the home. My husband provides for me. Again, cool. If that's your thing, I love it for you. Mhmm. But what they don't mention is that some of these accounts

fucking blow up on TikTok. And if you're at located in the right place and you got the they're making their own fucking money. And they're getting brand deals and sponsorships and TikTok money and what and Facebook money and whatever whatever whatever. And it's a goddamn job. They don't call that. A lot of people a lot of people like to call content creation a job. Yeah. And it's it's that's

the the the lie there. It's like, I have all this time to do this and what tends to happen is the husbands are stupid rich. And so they have access to these resources. Yeah. And what's happening is they're selling a life to people watching it who maybe for their own reasons want a life like that. Maybe they're religiously aligned. Maybe they're politically aligned. Maybe it just speaks to them.

But there's not anybody going, let me tell you how fucking exhausting this is or what this really looks like. You know, and and in typical Internet fashion, you are getting the airbrushed version of something Sure. And it's being sold as the reality Mhmm. And then people are, like, eating it up because it it calls to something within them, and then they go to try and emulate it, and then they don't understand why Yeah. They're fucking miserable.

But that that's too why, you know, when the the things we talk about, you know, here we we talk about the not so pretty in our relationship too because, you know, it it goes hand in hand. Nothing is ever perfect. Now, since you told me about this Mhmm. What is the difference then? And I I know you said some some of what a trad wipe is considered to be, but I've I've heard it also in different what makes that different from a nineteen fifties

housewife? So we had somebody ask us that question, and it is on my list of they send it in like a q and a Mhmm. Question. But I'm I want us to do it as a long episode. Okay. Because I cannot because I don't have enough research and I don't have enough understanding. I have not read or listened to enough stuff to try and tell you hot wife, domestic discipline, blah blah blah. Right? I can't I can't have that conversation Mhmm. And and do it justice now. What I can tell you,

the difference, the big fucking difference Mhmm. Between trad wife and any fucking thing else that's power exchange Right. However whatever package you put it on, like Mhmm. Bow you tie it up with, is that at no point in what I have seen k. Does anybody talk about consent and negotiation to be a trad wife? It is an expectation. It is your place in life. You were born a woman, so this is your lot. Okay. You don't get to want more.

If you want more, you're not the good kind of woman, the right kind of woman. You're womaning wrong. You're not supposed to wanna be in charge and make decisions. Your purpose is to have a bunch of babies and make your Cinnamon Toast Crunch from scratch. Basically, your husband makes all decisions but Yeah. Yes. Without the and was it Evie who said it? And I I think it's in her Trad wife video. Mhmm. Semi badly quoting. And it might have been her I think it might have been that video. It was

in one of the videos. They're both linked. No. Basically, Trad wife, that kind of lifestyle, the power imbalance is inherent. There is no seeing that in the way it's talked about. There's no seeing that woman as an equal. In power exchange, we come together as equals to figure out what the fuck we want. Yeah. We design it in the way that we want. And it can look like the trad wife experience. It can look like this or that. But Mhmm. Its core, its base is we are equals.

Right. You do I don't have a role I require by gender. And that's something that I've always said, you know, when said this through the years. We are in a we are equals in a mutually negotiated power exchange. Right. And that's that's the core of power exchange. Yeah. I'm we you know, it's not our biological sex. It's not our gender. It's not there's no specific role that we were born into or that we, you know, is inherent to our humanity that means we automatically do this thing.

Right? It's that same it's not the same. There's parallels between the trad wife, the the women the woman is always the submissive. They submit to their husband's will. Their husband will always know what's best. And I'm like, I've seen some of these fuckers. No. They don't. Yeah. But okay. Yeah. Versus the type of feminism that they ask. See what's what's funny. I'm sorry. I see the opposite side of all this. You know, I apparently never seen any of these, but what I see are a lot of women who

have gotten away from these. Yes. Because because The deconstruction, the deconstructing religious. Law. Yes. I see a lot of that too. Because what they ended up with this because again, it's not if it's not consensual, you know, they were in very abusive relationships. Right. And sometimes it can it's it's all the way to, like, this abusive awful thing. And sometimes it's just this is a we're talking about the the man in this this situation who believes he's owed something by birthright.

I was born with a dick. I happen to be white. I happen to be this. I happen to be in general, but not always. And so I get to I don't have to there's nothing as merit based. I didn't have to go learn a thing. I didn't have to get good at something. I didn't have to prove I had any fucking sense. I'm just this musty dusty man that convinced this woman to fucking marry me or her parents did or her religion did or something. And I didn't have to work for this and I had to have to prove myself. And

not often enough, but Lola agrees. Often enough, these women, for all kinds of reasons and in all kinds of ways, get away from that. Yeah. And then they're they're the ones trying to warn the rest of, you know Yeah. Woman kind behind them, like, be fucking careful. No. What I was gonna say is, so there's all that about the trad wife thing, the woman is inherently submissive to the man. There is a parallel in my mind from that way of thinking to the feminists who are anti kink.

Because they say all BDSM Mhmm. Is, subjects women. Women are like, oh, there's words. I can't think of them. But they're they are less than. They automatically submit. And it's the same binary thinking of a woman means submission. Yeah. And that's how, you know, those of us who are into kink can look at the the people making these arguments going, you don't know a fucking thing about kink because you just assumed that the woman is always submissive in this situation.

Not terribly unlike the trad wife thing is the woman is always submissive. It's it misses the inherent argument. The the parallel between trad wife and hot wife domestic discipline. Yeah. Whatever power exchange Yeah. Is that's part of what

where the split is Mhmm. Because there's no automatic role that somebody takes because of their And actually that that explains something because, you know, when, you I I was initially thinking when we talked a little bit about this, you know, that could this just be another part of the spectrum? It could be if it was negotiated. Yeah. And I would you know, here's the thing. The only problem I have there are probably

many problems. But one of the bigger problems I have with the trad wife thing is the assumption. Mhmm. Your gender equals your role. Right? Yeah. That that that to me is a is a problem. And the fact that Sorry. I'm a little bit upset. I totally get it. But there's also the,

because of how people are raised Yeah. You know, within their family unit, within their church, within their whatever, that there are assumptions that are made about what this woman will do within her marriage and how she will be treated and what she is air quote allowed to do and she's air quote not allowed to do. And so those are systems of oppression that do not lend themselves to, hey, can we sit down and have a conversation?

If somebody wanted to create the trad wife experience, but use the language of BDSM for consent and negotiation. And even if they had all the parts that I don't personally agree with on the religion or the the politics side. Right? Even then, then I'm like, you know what? Good on you because you've had the conversation. Both of you have had to prove yourself to the other. Mhmm. Ideally built up trust.

You're you're in this together. There there's a difference between creating a partnership and something that is expected of you. Mhmm. Exactly. So if we end up doing the Tradewife versus the a lot of this will come back up And I will probably sweat just as hard as my blood pressure goes up. But that is an imperfect way of explaining Trad Wives. So the Trad Wives wearing day collars thing. Mhmm. Look, Evie says a lot of brilliant things, but she said something in that video.

I wrote it down and I have been thinking about it in when we've talked about every one of these things we've talked about. Mhmm. Because what this person did is like, I'm wearing a day collar, which is just a necklace. And they said, as a sign of submission to my husband, not, you know and they they understood they were talking about a kink concept. Not, you know, just in the bedroom. This is about her whole life. And I was

like, yeah. Well, I'm not just supposed to my husband in the bedroom either, but we are still not the same. But that was me being judge you. And so the the thing that was missing in that this is my day caller, you know, announcement, pronouncement from this particular person who calls herself a trad wife. Like, that's not being used as a pejorative. That's like Yeah. How they classify themselves. Is it it's like they never made the logic leap to why this would be called

a day collar. Yeah. You know, because there's the night collar that you can't wear in public, and that's why kinky people have a day collar. Right. Like, if it if this necklace is just her sign of her submission to her husband Mhmm. Which on many levels, I usually fully support except the premise that we're working on here and it's not consensual. Right? Then it's just a collar. It's not a day collars on a night it's your collar. It's just Even if it just looks like

a necklace. But that they took that was an, moment of taking the language Yeah. Of kink and not even understand and this is what Evie said. This is and I'm kind of paraphrasing because I, like, wrote it down real quick. Evie said, they, meaning this the tradewise, take the collar out of kink and strip it of all of its context. Right. And that's what's happening. Spitting and choking and free use. Yeah. Not really princess treatment, but maybe. All of this, it's I've I've heard this concept.

I'm doing it to be edgy. I'm using I'm reappropriating it, whatever. But I I'm not presenting it as kink in in all the context that comes with it. All the meaning, all of the the best practices, the consent, the negotiation, the learning about a thing. I'm taking all of that away and I'm using a cool little term. And so now that term, once it leaves a kink community or leaves the, you know, the realm of people who are there to explain what this means in terms of kink,

it loses all meaning. Now did JB catch any of that because he had to walk away? No. Hopefully, y'all caught it. I might have to repeat myself. But I thought that was brilliant, what she said. Like, I can't stop thinking about it. When I think about free use and I think about the definitely with choking, I think about it. There's just no context. There's this act. There's this term. There's this broad societal kind of understanding, but you got

none of the fucking nuance. No. And and you know that the the whole collar thing? But and you know what? I have a feeling, maybe not this person, maybe somebody else. They heard the my collar is a symbol and a sign of my submission to my dom. And they went, Yeah. That makes sense. And but they didn't they didn't even have the context necessarily. But, you know, let's be honest. You asked most people and I'm not saying all because oh, no. You know?

You know, most people look at a collar having as much, in or you know impact as a wedding ring. Yes. Mhmm. And, you know something like that that's thrown it right in the Do you know, I I wanna say I'm going by memory here because I did watch it. I wanna say that that trad wife said for her. Maybe I'm thinking it was somebody else that I was reading about or watching. But I could have sworn somebody somewhere

made that connection themselves. Or maybe it was just Evie going, wait, this is as important as somebody's wedding band. I can't remember. But I remember that being part of the conversation, me going, yeah, that is. Yeah. I mean, you know I wear my collar when I don't wear my wedding band. Like People have coloring ceremonies.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I I tried to take a step back because I for years I have said and you have mostly agreed that we get to make these terms kinda mean whatever they mean to us. Right? Like Yeah. We have to have a common language and understand what we're all talking about, but then we get to, like, we get to make them ours in some ways. We just have to be prepared to explain what the fuck we mean. Right? Yeah. And part of me was like, wait. Am I kinda being a bitch

about this? And is this a version of that? And the moment Evie pointed out there's no fucking context left. Then I was like, no. Because nobody's gonna ask this trad wife what a day caller is. Right? Because she's gonna go, this is a sign of my submission. And now people are wearing air quote day collars. And Evie pointed out in her video, she was like, typically if you first of all, day collars aren't supposed to be clockable most of the time. It usually is like a necklace or

something kind of in a Yeah. Little thing. But she said, we're gonna hit a point where people are gonna see that day collar and before they assume you're kinky because maybe they're not kinky, they're gonna assume you're a trad wife. And what if that's the last fucking thing you want to assume you got? And I was like, you're fucking right. Because it's not a necessarily a shared experience. The trad wife community is not coming to the kink community to go,

let's talk about these terms. There's overlap. No. No. No. No. And see, that that to me with with the collar with the day collar thing, that's not even a matter of becoming mainstream. Oh, no. Okay? Because, you know, it it loses its its meaning. Mhmm. And basically, what that that is is it's being watered down and diluted. Yes. I agree. And there's and I don't like for I don't personally like to make decisions, even though sometimes I still do, based on

what a group might think. But I can't help but think about the fact that if trad wives, not all of them, and even the person who Evie showed in her video said, this is not all trad wives. This is a thing I do. But others will adopt it because there will be an appeal

to it. Right? All I could think is, you know, the the anti kink feminist and anti kink people in general, but the ones who call themselves feminists, right, automatically don't like the idea of a collar on a submissive because they're assuming all submissives are women and there's definitely problems with that. Yeah. Can you call yourself feminist if that's what you do? But whatever. But now, trad wives who already, like, lack of consent Mhmm.

Assumed roles, you know, some sometimes too often traumatic and and abusive and, like, all these awful things. Mhmm. And now they're gonna be using the the terms about collars. It's like, I don't want y'all painted in the same light as me. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want that in general, but I don't like the trad wife thing is mostly not always, but mostly not a good thing. Yeah. And now you're gonna take this thing that kinksters have to fight tooth and fucking nail

to normalize within themselves. Not Not like around the world. We wear day collars because we're trying to like not be clocked. But there's already some shame and inherent concern that people who wear collars have to fucking overcome. And now we've got this side that the trad wife thing that almost kink people's views on what they think kink is. And you're gonna fucking use our term? And use our symbol? Like, fucking hell. Yeah. Because somebody saw something on the internet and

they took something out of context. Now here's here's something I would like to say Mhmm. At this point after having all this Mhmm. This conversation. For a long time, I was of the camp that it would be nice to see kink mainstream. Mhmm. Okay? Mhmm. Alright. And anymore, I think I've kinda changed camps on that thought. Okay. And here's why. Just for this reason to see this stuff become mainstream it becomes watered down. It loses

the meaning of what it is. Mhmm. So it it I it's not a fact a matter of the fact that it would be nice to see kink mainstream. No. It would be nice to see it accepted. Yes. Okay. Yes. That's a difference. Agree. Accepted for what it is and for the people who live it and practice it. Yes. So that you could just if somebody found out you were kinky, it was not like the fucking end of the world for you job wise, marriage. Correct. You know, whatever whatever. Mhmm. Yes. I I do agree with that.

I think that the normalization conversation over the different cycles Mhmm. There's some similarities. There's there's some stuff. There's some stuff. I I have notes. So but I go back to what Evie said because I I have notes on this that go with it. So Evie was talking about the collar, but basically, they take these things out of kink and strip all of its

context away. So then it becomes meaningless and people have assumptions, but they don't have they they don't even know what they're really talking about. But people and then my personal pet peeve is people who do understand the terms and where they come from. Now we're gonna conflate kink with this bullshit thing, whatever. I like that. Okay. So to me, that sums up all of these different TikTok trends and and larger trends that we've talked about.

I I came across a study while I was doing the research to kinda like make sure I was talking about the right things in the right timelines. And the study was not about this. It was actually looking at, it's a 2023 study by Jenny Sundin. I think it's how they say their name. I don't know. They are they had a little, like, squiggle over one of the letters in their names and I don't know how you pronounce those and I just we're going with it. They their study was about a Swedish digital

platform for kinksters. Okay? Okay. They were studying something completely different about how people are interacting and and how, you know, their worlds are meshing between doing something, in an online kink community versus whatever else. But what they said about the study, I think parallels to kind of what we're talking about and some of why and how this kind of stuff is happening. I linked to that study for anybody who's interested, but this is the quote right from the beginning.

So this study, but let's take these trends, looks at digital kink expressions at a moment when kink communities are both marginalized and seemingly mainstream, navigating a tricky balance between visibility and invisibility, intelligibility and unintelligibility. And I went, yeah. That tracks. Mhmm. Because kink is just mainstream enough that people know terms. They read some smut. They watched 50 Shades something. They watched some porn. Yeah. They

know terms. And they know it's edgy. And they know they can say these things or do these things. And it'll go viral and it'll be this. But they don't even have the context. And so those of us who are over here trying to, like, be kinky people in the world are either having the lack of context understanding of these terms thrown at us, like, that's what this is. It's like, that's not what the fuck it is. Or we're like, I don't even wanna be associated with this way you're using my kink concept.

I can't even show myself because it's been bastardized so bad because the context is gone. Mhmm. So, yeah, I thought that quote was amazing. I was I'm always happy to find legit studies in journals that are not from 1999 about kink. There are probably more out there than you realize. Yeah. So let's talk about this. This is, I think, with my notes. Yes. I know it looks like a lot but I had to like put my thoughts down so they didn't vanish into the ether.

About because my opinion is whether kink is being air quote normalized at all, I think is up for debate. Okay? So let's go through my my points. So one of the things I thought about was that erotic writers publish kink smut because it's profitable and people want to read it. But at the same time, smut is in romance is still, even though it's a multi billion dollar industry, still absolutely fucking looked down upon. Yeah. Because it's the thing that primarily, but not only, women enjoy.

And so therefore, it does not necessarily get the amount of respect that it should. Then you add that sub niche of kink into it. Well, we're all just horny bitches who aren't getting laid in this, you know, whatever the the the crap is that people say. Yeah. But the kink smut is being written. Not always well, but it's being written for profit. Maybe that's a normalization thing, but it's not because it's not like

everybody's reading kink smut. It's not like kink is infiltrating our contemporary literature or science fiction or you know what I mean? It's it's for the most part, its own subgenre that is profitable and that is why some people write it. Some people are only writing it because they're gonna make money off of it. People weren't reading it. No one would write it. Which is fine. I think you can just create things because people won't buy

it from you. That's not a problem. But that does not, to me, speak to air quote normalization. Mhmm. That's a profitability and a subgenre and a sub niche of specific types of readers. Many of whom don't want anybody knowing what they're reading anyway. Because it's not really normalized. It's not really like, it was fine when everybody, air quote, was reading 50 Shades because it was it felt like literally everybody.

Right. But not you know, you can form your own groups of friends and communities where you're, like, very open about what you're reading. Please do. I think that's a great thing. But that don't mean you can walk up into the boardroom tomorrow and nudge, nudge your bestie from down the hall and talk about the, like, unhinged smut you just read. I think you've maybe not a business setting. I think you should be able to, but not a lot of people are gonna be comfortable about that.

Because even if you were not engaging in kink That's after work when you're at the bar having a drink. Even if you were not engaging in kink, the fact the fact that you can find it enjoyable for some people is still taboo. Because some people can't handle the fact that sometimes some of us are reading about people fucking. Don't close the door. Don't turn out the lights. I want all the details.

Like, we still have we have writers who every reader should be able to find the kind of book they wanna read and so you have to market that blah blah blah. But the closed door romance is off or the there's just no sex in it at all gets marketed as a quote clean romance, which is a separate pet peeve of mine. It's not about this. But you see, like, for people to want to differentiate themselves just from sex in general, Right? To

kink is now a selling point. It's a marketing point to find the audience, but, you know, not everybody is, like, walking around proud and happy. Those of us who have a few fucks to give, those of us who, you know, have supportive communities. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But, you know, it's popular, but that doesn't to me, that doesn't mean normalization is what I think I'm trying to say there. Okay. Okay. So here's the thing and I this is a guess. Okay? It's it's a guess from

my limited understanding of the Internet age. So there could be a better take on this. You might have a better take, but here's here's what I came up with. So I tried to do a search to see if anybody had compiled this and I couldn't because I was like, are more movies, shows, series, whatever, being made to include kink, or does it just seem that way? Right? And I tried to search that. If anybody was compiling, I could not find where that

was. So my theory currently, I'm happy to change my mind if I get a new way to think about it, that it seems like more movies and series and shows have a kink theme. But maybe that's just because the digital age makes information more accessible. And in the past, the only kink media that caught air quote this, everybody's attention was what was so popular. Like, just to hit the site like some news station somewhere when there's this movie called Secretary Out. What the hell is that

about? Right? And did we just miss all this other content that was being created because we didn't have access to a Google search? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, the the movies were being made at whatever rate they were made across time, you know, whatever. And the ratio of has kink, doesn't have kink. Is that similar or has it actually increased? If it's increased, we go back to is it because BDSM has been normalized or if it's because it's a profit maker

because Mhmm. Of all the different reasons people might consume that media. And I don't know. I mean, what what do you think? You would have seen more of a time of pre Google media than even than I would have. So I mean, there to find stuff like that, I did not come across it that much because to find stuff like that, you would have to have access to an adult store? Sure. To find it in porn. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, even magazines or anything at that time.

No. But I mean, like, I'm thinking, like, mainstream ish kind of movies. Movies that would have been released in a theater somewhere. There there were a few in the eighties that I remember, basically, that had and it wasn't that they the movies were themed around it. It was there were little snippets of things. Like, I I cannot remember the name of the movie, but, it was one of those eighties movie and they had the, the trope of the quiet librarian.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. After hours becoming, you know, the big d and Mhmm. You know, kind of thing. So, you know, there were things like that seen in the movies Mhmm. Back then. If you wanted to seek, you know, kinky stuff out, beyond, like, your playboy penthouse, then you're diving into your stuff like hustler magazines and Sure. Your hard work. Even ones beyond that. Sure. You know? So is it more or less I I think it's just more noticeable. And it's

certainly more easily to find. Easy more easily to find because there is more avenues. You know, let's let's face it. We have seen, number number of younger people coming into the community, and they have been you know digesting this information you know because it's out there free to find you know between between podcasts and and YouTube's and you know, everything that's out there anymore, it's it's easy to find.

And I would say there's absolutely with the Internet age, a proliferation of information, of resources, because there's websites and there's books and there's YouTube channels and there's videos that aren't YouTube and whatever. I for me, I'm thinking more of ratios because the Internet is, like, seemingly endless. So, yeah, you can find numbers wise. Yes. But, like, if I was looking at okay. Kink communities back in the day, you found people through literal classified as Yes. In the

back of, like, a magazine. Right? Well, numbers wise, percentages, there are almost, if any, none of that today because you don't need that. You go to do a different format of the same thing. Right? But not every single person sees the same things either. It's it's part of the interesting thing about everything ever is there. Yeah. But one human being can never see everything everywhere. We find a few some of us find a few things and we gravitate, but everybody's got their own

thing to gravitate to. True. True. I will probably never get the answer to any of that. It's just it's just a thought exercise. But, you know, I think in more the past few years, I think we are going through so sorry, Swiss cheese brain. So when I was trying to to see if anybody had compiled this by number, are we producing more movies that have a BDSM theme? Are there more whatever whatever. Right? What I did come across were lists that people had compiled themselves. It was not like

research or, like, science backed. It was just people doing their own thing with some Google searches and their own knowledge, and they were compiling lists of BDSM movies over decades. Right? And some were, like, 10. Some there was one that was 55. There was one that was 70. Right? When I would go to look, one, the the heavy hitters, the secretary, the future, they were always on the list, always

story of o, always on the list. But what I noticed in terms of time periods, in every decade from the sixties forward, there was always at least a couple that went were available enough or well known enough that somebody could, like, find it and watch it and go, oh, this was a kink thing. And so I found that interesting is, like, we go through these cycles Mhmm. Of kink bubbling up to the surface a little bit more. And and, you know, just just to think just to think say

Uh-huh. I know. You know, going back to talking about kink in in in mainstream and stuff, go back even a step further to your to Bettie Page. Mhmm. Think about Bettie Page. You know? She became famous for There were a couple of movies about her. Yeah. With and with she came up on my list of movie content a few times. Yeah. Mhmm. So, you know, it it, you know, it it's been. It's it's it's been there. It's not that's the thing. I you know, we know that. Anybody who's had,

you know, time on the Earth Yeah. Enough time on Earth can go, no. This is not a new concept, and it's typically new for the people who didn't know what it was. So I'm never surprised when I would find a movie from the sixties and certainly from the seventies, blah blah blah. Right. I'm

thinking more in terms of sheer volume. I wonder if what's happening between the twenty teens to now is that we're still in that same cycle of kink bubbling up, but it happens more quickly now because things go viral on Tik Tok and Yeah. You know, becomes part of the, you know, mainstream conversation about things. Right? And so I probably yes. More con more mainstream content movies, baby girls, sanctuary. Sanctuary was from 2023, baby girls from what, 2024?

Don't think it was this year, was it? Whatever. The there is a new movie coming out or is out that I'd like to see. Supposedly a romantic comedy. So the prem I cannot remember the name of the movie. The premise that I've seen is these two people, they're dating. Okay? They've been dating a while. They go away on like a weekend trip to like a cabin in the woods kind of thing. She thinks they're becoming serious that they're exclusive. And he does that typical dude bro thing of, oh, I

I didn't think it was that serious. But he has the poor timing to tell her that. I believe while he is handcuffed to the bed in a kink scene. And she refuses I think initially she refuses to unlock him and leaves she's still doing stuff. Like, I don't think she leaves this capital. Yeah. Her best friend her I think her best friend comes to like hell and his ass is hooked to that fucking bed. Like, this whole weekend apparently. Wow. I I cannot remember the

name of the movie. I don't know if it's out yet or if it's gonna be released soon. I kinda fucking wanna see that. Yeah. Because I don't, like, I don't love kink being made the butt of a joke or like the the the evil person is always the kinky one. Or, like, I don't well, of course, I don't like that. But but there there's a part of me that's like, I think that might be fitting. I'm wearing the way you treated somebody. But so that's an aside that does not have anything

to do with this. But, you know, those kinds of concepts and movies are they're coming out Mhmm. Seemingly faster and faster. So maybe, yes, the answer is, yeah, there's more content now. Not just because the Internet exists, but because the the mainstream conversations around kink are happening faster and faster and more and more. And so it all it kind of just expands from

there. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. And, you know, I I I think to to a a certain extent, let's be honest because, you know, Hollywood and everything is regurgitating so many things. They're looking, you know, to, you know, they're they're looking for the next best thing that's gonna bring people in to to watch. So, you know, I I guess it stands to reason that, you know, something like that would be It does tend to be the more independent or the smaller studios.

A 24, I think, is the name of the movie production. I I just know a twenty four. They do more of, like, the independent kind of like, they're not just doing all the nostalgic, let's do the third version. I saw a thing that said Toy Story five is coming out next year, and I almost cried. I was like, what are we doing? Yeah. So so yeah. So I I think that's a reasonable people can disagree on that one. You know, it's I know it

feels like there's more. I just wish there was, like, research done and a hardcore answer because that would just make me happy. Yeah. So here is a thing we've kind of been was saying a few times and it's sort of we're talking about, is it being normalized? This is a a thought I had. Is kink so widespread, like, becoming so common amongst just people in their own fucking bedrooms Mhmm. That it inevitably goes viral because there's just so many people doing it

and talking about it. Or is it more that non kink creators are going viral because they've stripped the context out of a kink term because they wanna appear edgy and they know that it'll do numbers and it'll get people's attention. And I that's probably an unknowable answer. Yeah. But, like, it's more of a what does it feel like to you? And I don't I do think from my personal view, it does feel like more people in general are kinky than my mind could have conceived of. It's not like 75%

of the world is kinky. I don't I know there have been some studies done. They've tried to extrapolate what that percentage is, and I don't remember anymore, like, a recent number. It wasn't really, really small, but it wasn't really really big. I do think as people get more access to information, there is more of a willingness to experiment. And so some of the studies I've seen people talk about are like who has tried

a kink thing. But when we're talking about the mainstreaming of conversation and a lot of these things start in a place like TikTok or just social media in general, you know, is there a sense of where it's coming from? And I I don't really have a clear answer for that. Yeah. And maybe there isn't a clear answer for that. But I think it's worth thinking about. Because when you see a concept go viral, if it can be backtracked to the original creator Mhmm.

Was that somebody who just set a term that they don't like, they're not connected to, they couldn't define for you if you bait them. Bless you. Excuse me. You know? And so all they did was did a little taboo thing and went viral. Or Mhmm. Can, you know, a kink creator get be fortunate enough to actually get picked up by an algorithm and them explaining a concept or or just, you know, presenting a concept is what goes viral. Viral. I who the fuck knows? It probably changes from day to day.

I'm sure. Yeah. Now, here's my final one, and we did say it earlier, but I'm putting it here at the end about the normalization. Here's my thought on it. You tell me what you think. Okay. So to me, kinky sex. Okay. Not BDSM, not power just kinky, like, the kind of sex that's not air quote, what however you define this, air quote typical. Right? When it's stripped of context and consent Mhmm.

Is absolutely, there's no doubt, creeping into mostly younger people's, but not always, young people's expectations of sex. In my opinion, that has nothing to do with the normalization of kink. Mhmm. And it's if not fully due to this, it is large part because people are have unfettered access to porn before they ought to. Right. And are also being denied access to comprehensive sex ed. So porn is gonna show you the kinkiest fucking shit, but it's not gonna sit you down and give you context about

it. You might only be watching a two minute clip that was, you know, pirated from somewhere else, and now the creators are not even getting fucked. There's all kinds of problems with some kinds of porn. But Mhmm. You know, we know kids way too young, not even legal, up to through, like, mid fucking twenties to a certain extent are using porn to learn about what they think sex is supposed to be because no responsible fucking adult in their life is

talking to them about it. And then it's showing up in these studies where, you know, people are just getting choked and that they think they've they've learned to expect it. And they're spinning and they're just learning to expect it because they've got this false view of what sex can be with none of the discussion about it. Like, a a porn actor's job is to present the fucking fantasy to do

their job. Yeah. And the the people making it their job is to get it on camera in the most, air quote, this appealing way. Their job is not to fucking enough so that the masses walk it. Right. The people who want that kind of porn. Yeah. Right. It is a parent's job to and we have failed at it a couple of times. I know we have. It's a parent's job to watch at their kids access to the fucking Internet. And if they are watching porn, and we have been there, you deal with it and

you educate your kids about sex. You know what I mean? Like, but not everybody can or will do that. So it's not that kink is mainstream. Well, even going back It's that porn is mainstream. Even going back ten, fifteen years ago at this point, grade school kids were accessing porn. That's been happening. Yeah. That's been happening for a while. Yes. Been happening for a while. Mhmm. And, you know, that's some of these things kinda trick

ripple back and forth. You know? Things happen in porn, and they somebody starts talking about it in a non kink you know, in a TikTok, and it goes viral. And, you know, things that get mentioned that went viral, somebody's now on their favorite porn site doing a search for that term, and they're getting inundated with all of the the things that might be out there about it. And, again, what is happening is all this kink stuff is

zero context. Yeah. So people who are coming across the information because they have access to it, because no responsible adult in their life is paying attention. And I do not say that with judgment. I was not the responsible adult paying attention for too long in a situation, and we are still dealing with it. You know? And so then these concepts trickle up Mhmm. From people who watch porn, think that's

normal sex, now they're talking about it. It's getting normalized, but it's not kink being normalized. It's really not. Not not in my view. Mhmm. So is there a normalization? I do know that once I watched I saw this in the kind of the Google searches. After the pathology oh, gosh. The pathology of BDSM was pulled from the DSM. I think we're on the DSM five now. And they Yeah. You know, BDSM, like, just being a practitioner is not, like, a mental illness. It's not a diagnostic thing

anymore. Right? Around that time as the as that version of the DSM was coming out and then in the year since, mental health professionals will often try to air quote normalize BDSM in the content that they create in an effort for people not to be diagnosed incorrectly, be mistreated by health care professionals, that kind of normalization, more of fucking that shit. Right? I mean, I I hate that we live in a world and I know this is not just true of kinksters. This is true of any marginalized

community. And I don't like to classify us as marginalized in the same way that, you know, other people are definitely marginalized. But the fact that it's like, can I go see that therapist and can I even

tell them that I'm kinky? If I tell them that I'm kinky, will they just like accept it and roll with it, but then do I have to fucking educate them or you know, like it's there's still a there's a barrier to it to some degree, because, you know, even people who understand, okay, I can't diagnose you with a mental illness because you're kinky, doesn't mean they're looking at you like, but I still think you are a well rounded

human being. Right? So I have seen, like not that it's the best site ever, but it's sometimes decent. Psychology Today and some of those other, like, psychologist based, therapy based sites, the general information. I've seen them try to talk about the normalization of kink, but that's from the the mental health professional side of things. And I think that's a worthy endeavor. Please fucking let's

do that. Let's talk more openly in these surveys and these studies, mostly surveys by sex toy companies, but sometimes it's just like a legit study of how many people are actually just trying a kink thing, exploring kink, looking up something about BDSM. I think those conversations are good to have. Those studies are good to have and promote because it does show you're not the only kinky bitch in your town. I

promise you. I promise you. Yeah. I promise you in a town of 10 people, you still are probably not the only kinky one in it. Alright? So I you know, can we answer the question? My boring answer is I think it's context dependent. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think we're we're fully mainstream and normalized yet because you can still lose your job. You can still lose custody of your children. Mhmm. You can be shunned by your family. You know?

Again, it is in no way the same level as other marginalized communities, and I will not pretend otherwise. But people do have to protect their privacy and their safety so that they know they still have a fucking job to go to. And that's not nothing. So that tells me right there that it's not mainstream. Right. Not fully. Nope. This went way longer than I expected. Yeah. Do you like, you feel like you said everything you wanted to say? Okay.

We will do a bonus section. I can't do a twenty, thirty minute ramble though because my piece of cake from our little sheet cake I made is waiting on me. Yeah. And it's almost it's almost too late in the evening for me to wanna have dessert. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But we will do a bonus section. Okay. So, are we good? I have no idea. Keep it kinky, y'all. And we'll see you next week. Daddy. Yes, baby girl. Can we talk to the

crickets instead of talking at the crickets? Actually, you can talk to the crickets for a moment, and I'll be right back. You already left me once. Yeah. I know. My girl. I know. I know your girl. I know your girl. She was, ramping up because she it was time for her to get her, you know, she gets her one high value treat. I know. And she does not have patience for having to wait for that damn thing. No. She does. She knows. She knows she gets it. That's her piece of cake

Yeah. Equivalent of. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be right back. Okay. So if I was a good content creator, I would have ended before we came into the bonus section and said, tell me what you think in the comments. I do mean that, but I don't know. I'm not a good content creator. I'm a great yapper. I do find it hilarious that the term yapping has either bubbled up from, like, some layer of younger than me slang, in some recent time because I hear it now all the time. And I'm like, yeah.

I too. I too like a good yap. But I remember saying that word four hundred years ago. I don't I think it was used as an insult then. I don't know. I don't know. So yeah. Silent. You're trying to oh, there's a term I can a phrase I was thinking of and I can't think of it because I use all of my brain cells to to do the episode. If I ate cake while streaming slash recording the podcast, the podcast listeners would definitely know because because I don't take dainty bites.

I do mostly remember not to talk with my mouthful. But also the it's chocolate cake, and then there'd probably be chocolate in my teeth. And YouTube, you would get to see that, and nobody wants to see that. But I am looking forward to my cake. I am sad it's the last little bit of cake. I what I need to do is get back on my ice cream rotation now that the cake is gone. Mhmm. We will have cake again next week because the 15 year old becomes the 16 year old.

Yep. I went to order their cake today, and they're getting it's semi custom. Like, it's a design that Publix already had on the books, but they didn't usually do it in the size I was asking for. And then I was the person was like, do you wanna change the color on this? And I went, yeah, I'd like that blue to be more of a pastel and less whatever that is. And there was a pink on it and I was like, you know, I'd like that pink to be a little darker. And she's writing it. I'm like, I know

that's so not specific at all. Just do the best you can. Just do Yeah. She was like, okay. So yeah. The birthday present is I have not gotten an updated on tracking. Just ordered the birthday present today. But when I ordered it, it said it was estimated to arrive on the child's birthday. Oh gosh. It's like, they already can't I mean, they already know what they're getting. They sent me the multiple links, and then I had to, like, ask clarifying questions. So it's not really a surprise.

So that's okay, though. I could've sworn there was something I was like, oh, that's good bonus section material. I look. I Silent said it in live stream, and it's true. I I did not expect a rant in this one. Yeah. Can you talk about the the whole trad wife concept? Apparently apparently, I get heated. You know what? And it's not because of how people structure their lives. It is the lack of communication and consent. It's the expectation setting that's just

Mhmm. So if we end up doing the episode where we're comparing, like, you know, trad wife, fifties housewife, domestic just like the I I yeah. I'll probably get heated. I'll probably get pissed off. So yeah. Mister Spock, I did not mean I did not want to wait this long to order said, said birthday present, but we had to recover from our summer slump. Yeah. And then we had to sell some shit, and we did. We had a sale.

A good sale. Still going. Labor Day twenty five, save 15% off at the kangaroo.com. But yeah. And he has some money to hit the account, then I could be like, let me go order that. Mhmm. I meant to order it yesterday, but I forgot how banks work after a holiday. And so but yeah. You know, the youngest is a very low key kinda kid on certain things, But are we having a oh, we're having a video problem again? Yeah.

It's weird. They like like me, they do not want anybody to sing happy birthday to them. They do not want a lot of focus and attention. They don't wanna be perceived. But they do want cake, and they want what they want as a gift. It's cash. It's Steam gift cards. Their grandmother hooked them the fuck up. That was a big old Steam gift card. And then it's, this gaming mouse. So, anyway, so, yeah, that'll be before we, that I don't know what day of the week the tenth is. It might be a

Wednesday. No. No. Neither. I don't remember. I that feels correct that the tenth is a Wednesday, but I that is a date. I'd just like the oldest, I don't forget their birthdays. I don't forget JB's birthday. I might not know what day of the week it is, but I know the number. So Indeed it is. Mhmm. Okay. So, oh, that'll be interesting for the stream. Yeah. Because we usually do a special dinner out. That'll be interesting. Mhmm. So, yeah, that's our next that's our next

thing. Yep. So if we schedule the stream a little later next week, that's why. We're letting the soon to be 16 year old have a birthday dinner and their birthday cake. Right. And then they're done with us. Like, once they open their present, they don't fucking want us anymore. We don't we don't we don't exist anymore. Done. Done. Let them go back into their cave. Right. But so yeah. Since whatever it was I was thinking of, I can't remember. I don't have much. Do you have anything?

I don't have a whole lot. I don't do a whole lot except work. I know. Yeah. I bet you, like, bust an ass. Work and play Terraria when I can. The last week, we complained about the piles of wood. They are less because finished those paddles, but they're I'm staring down the barrel of another pile of wood behind the camera. Mhmm. I've been I've been making paddles. In between. I would still been putting out some Halloween decorations. Which I've got to Mhmm.

Get up on your Etsy shop. And I've I've started on the Christmas, and then there's the Hanukkah stuff, and Mhmm. I got all kinds of stuff keeping me busy right now. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep. I managed to to find some focus and energy, and I've it just means that I've been busy again. And I'm like, I don't wanna do this stupid stuff. That's okay. Hey. Hey. I actually got on and made took a phone call today to do something I needed to do.

And it was an important one, and it was one of those things where it was a phone call. It was not actually for me. It was for somebody else, which means I could do it then. If it had been just for me, couldn't do it. But then after that, I needed to make more phone calls. And the first two I tried to make went nowhere. Either it was like a crazy hold time or it was like it was sending me the runaround on the automated thing, and I went I'm I've hit my threshold.

These things can stay undone for right now. I did the important phone call. These were bonus phone calls. I'm done. I'm done. I will have to do them, though. So whatever. So, yeah, I think that's that's all I've got, if that's all you've got. Mhmm. So then we we will go and eat cake. Cake. Cake. That was that was enthusiastic. We might come to next week's stream with, like, frosting around our mouth because that'll be birthday cake. And I picked a design that has

lots of frosting. Mhmm. Lots and lots of frosting. Anyway, so we will go. Mhmm. Thank you all for being here with us. Thanks. Especially to the bitter end. Mhmm. Always always a good time hanging out with y'all. Yeah. And we will do this again next week. Mhmm. Okay. Bye. Bye.