You're listening to Living BDSM podcast episode four forty five. Kayla Lords here with the one, the only, the man who has, shown a lot of patience towards our streaming setup today, John Brownstone. Yeah. Even after learning that yet another thing can only be accessed on a subscription service. I I truly at some point, I feel like, you know, the ability to breathe oxygen, that's gonna be $4.99 a month. Yeah. Everything is on a subscription.
Well, yeah. It it was frustrating because, you know, this utility to do what we do, which helped do what we do for years and years has just been a downloadable utility. You go to to the website and you download the utility and boom, you're doing they've taken all the downloads away Mhmm. And now there is only the paid subscription. Yeah. Yeah. Anyhoo. That's in no way what we're talking about, but if we get a JB rant out of this week's episode, that will have
a little bit to do with it. Just I'm just saying. This week, we're actually gonna do a topic that came up in conversation in our Discord server Mhmm. That got a lot of people talking, got JB thinking. And then, you know, when I went, oh, yeah. Let me, like, pay attention. I started thinking, and next thing you know, here we are. Do do I know what I'm gonna say yet? No. I'm gonna be actively thinking through this in real time into a microphone. So this will be interesting. Mhmm. Welcome to
the Loving BDSM podcast. If this is your first time listening, glad to have you. If you're back for another week, welcome back. Loving BDSM is produced every Friday for your kinky pleasure and education, and show notes are found at lovingbdsm.net. Come back often and feel free to add the podcast to your favorite podcast app. You can also follow the show on FetLife at loving BDSM PC. The PC stands for podcast. On Instagram and technically threads, that handle I will forever fucking hate.
It's loving d s and the number one. So it's at loving d s one, and it pisses me off every time. And there's lore about it. If you're new here, there is lore, on blue sky, at lovingbdsm.bsky.social. But if you just search lovingbdsm, we'll come right on up. Or on YouTube at youtube.com/lovingbdsm, where you can watch us livestream the podcast every Wednesday. All links are in the show notes.
A big thanks, as we always like to do, to our kinky patrons, not just for their support, not just for being in community if you would like to apparently know what the topics are gonna be before we do, participate in the conversations like that, be part of our community, help us keep being weirdos on the Internet. You can do that through our Patreon, patreon.com/kaylalords.
You get access to the Discord server, you get access to a behind the scenes podcast episode every month where we talk about what's going on in our relationship. The most recent episode of which talked gave spoilers for, like, a thing we'll talk about in the future, which is our use of the Obedience app. So, yeah. You can join for as little as $2 a month. You'll find all the information at patreon.com/kaylalords or the link is in the show notes.
Okay. Before we get into our topic, an announcement. If you are on our email list, you will hopefully have heard this already and you will hear it many times again. We this thing, it came out last year and we talked about it and I know a lot of y'all signed up for it. It is back this year. It's called Jumpstart Your BDSM Journey. It's a BDSM air quote boot camp, that is, educational workshops, four days, absolutely free, all online,
put on through, DomSub Living. Alessandra is the one, I think with her partner, who's doing all of the classes this time. This is different from the summit we did a few months ago where we had a class. This is all Dom Sub Living, but it's four days, absolutely free. The whole kind of point you know how we talk about how we want you to have a happier, healthier power exchange and that there's lots of ways to get there.
This is some of, like, kind of the beginning stuff of, like, figuring out what you want and how is it gonna fit into your life and how you can gain confidence in yourself as a kinkster so that this can be a part of your life if that's how you wanna do it. So the link is in the places,
absolutely free. One of the things I love about Alessandra over at Domestud Living is when she puts on a free thing, whether it's just her by herself or we collaborate with a whole bunch of other educators and creators, her whole point is, yeah, it's free, but it still has to be actionable. It has to be, like, worth the time. It's not the direct, hey, I'm gonna give you, like, surface level information that doesn't actually change your life. You could have gotten that through a Google
search. And then here's a sales pitch at the end. It's, like, legit educational content for four days. Full disclosure. At some point in it, of course, there is a sales pitch, but for free, you will get the information that you want. You'll get plenty of actual information. Don't have to spend a dime. So that starts July 14. There's, like, two weeks to sign up. We're gonna be talking about it until there's no more time to sign up.
So if that's your thing, if you did it before, you found it helpful, if you're at this point in your BDSM life and you're like, yeah. I could use that, feel free to check it out. Yeah. Link in the places. That's the thing. Okay. This week's topic, huge, massive thanks to Princess Rara Mhmm. Of Pink Kink podcast, who brought this discussion into our Discord and went, oh, I've been having conversations about this.
I wanna know what y'all think. And then I slid into her DMs today and went, is it okay with you if I use this as a topic? Because there's some thoughts popping up. Mhmm. And she's very gracious. If you are not aware of the Pinky King podcast, if that's not one you've listened to yet, link is in the places. Go check out their podcast. First of all, there are people who know what the hell they're talking about, so you're gonna get good
information. But what I really like is, Rah Rah and, Dara, they what am I trying to say? Words Swiss cheese brain. They talk more about kinks than we do. Like, we get a lot of people who are like, can you talk about, like, a specific kink or kink activity or fucker or scenes? And I'm like, we're more of the relationship communication people. That's kind of our jam. For the kink education, definitely, definitely check out Pink
Ink podcast. Mhmm. And thank you to RahRah for bringing this topic to our attention and for being like, yeah. Sure. Let's freaking talk about this. Also, you will probably see this come up in other future episodes that are not us. I'm just saying, I don't wanna give spoilers away because that's not my job. Okay. So what I wanna do before we talk. Right? Mhmm. I want to share the situation that Ra Ra shared asked, and then we can kinda talk about it because Okay. It's very philosophical.
It's very interesting conversation. It can go all kinds places. So this was the the situation that Ra Ra shared with us. Atop posted that she did electro play on someone with a pacemaker. The Top joked that the Bottom almost died but it was worth it because the Bottom was hot. And she claims that the bottom asked for it. Electroplague can short circuit a pacemaker causing it to malfunction and or fail, which
is Mhmm. Potentially life threatening for said person with said pacemaker, just if you didn't know. So the questions that Rara brought up in the conversation is like, is there ever a point where even if both people fully consent, the risk is too great and the scene just shouldn't happen? And if so, who gets to make that call? Can a community or dungeon decide that some kinks are too dangerous, or is that crossing a line into policing personal autonomy?
Deep philosophical questions about ethics and morals and responsibility. Yep. So where would you like to start? Y'all are gonna get my thoughts in real time because I have not actively talked through any of this. We'll find out what I think together. Well, you know, it to to me, they crossed the line. Mhmm. Okay. It it's kinda like the thing with, erotic fixation. Asphyxiation? Yes. Thank you. Right. You know, you talk about edge play.
Yeah. And for somebody who might not be aware of what edge play is, it is not edging as play, which is a thing you can do. But edge play is the kind of play where you are playing on the edge. Extreme. Like, it Yeah. Extreme to the point that it can be life threatening. So electro play with a pacemaker? Mhmm. I mean, to me, I I think it's a no go, but, yeah, maybe. To to me, in in my opinion, that is crossing a line. From the top's perspective, sure. Yeah. Certainly. The the responsibility
of a top Right. To, like, actively try to be as risk Mhmm. Free as possible. You know, one, a top has the option to observe the boundaries Right. And limits. Okay? But, you know, this this kind of thing and I and I know, you know, people are going to people. Always. Mhmm. And and, you know, you you see it. You put stuff in the newsletter. Things that happen Yeah. Don't become a headline for your the tabloid, newspapers in your country of origin. You don't
want that. I I and to me, the thing that hit me the most in this was that was because they were hot. You know, I'd be curious. I kind of wish I knew the full context because was that a joke or was that done in seriousness? I know. You know, when I'm not being charitable, I'm gonna be like, oh, whether it was a joke or not, that's really, like, no. It's distasteful, but maybe they didn't mean it that way. But Mhmm. At first glance, it minimum is a little distasteful.
Yeah. Let alone that it might be fully irresponsible. So, you know, to me, in in all this, it would have been it should have been Mhmm. The top's responsibility to say no. Right. Right. Like No. We we, you know, we not gonna do this. Like, I get you. You might be interested. You know, maybe it's, like, kind of a hot scary idea. Mhmm. What I would also be interested in is who suggested it? Who brought it up, you know? Mhmm. Because that then tells you even more potentially about that top or
Right. If a dom out there is doing something like that. Now here's the thing, and this is part of the question of, like, does the community or the dungeon or the whatever kinda get a say, can they step in? That's the real thing because who the fuck knows what's happening behind closed doors? And none of us have any control over what people are doing in a private space where nobody is witnessing. Now hopefully somebody would have gone to their Discord
server and been like, oh my god. I just had this scene and here's how it went. And then people could educate them and be like, you nearly killed somebody. What the fuck are you doing? Right? So knowing that, I do think that's a harder thing to and I wanna use the term police, but to sort of oversee. Now a dungeon, a play party, I think you get a lot more leeway because the people who own that space, who are responsible for that space, get to set
rules. And as long as they communicate those rules, so everybody has an opportunity to, you know, play within them, abide by them, or choose to leave because they don't want want to. Right. You know, I think that I think, personally, I would not be uncomfortable with a a dungeon monitor, a host of a play party, or whoever stepping into a scene to go, you are not Mhmm. This is not just, yeah, all BDSM is risky. This is actively life threatening if you or active harm.
The thing you and I were talking about earlier about the difference between all kink has risks. There's no such thing as safety, full safety, no risks in kink. All of it's all of it's risky versus that specific action you are taking has a such a high chance of risk and real danger that it is literally actively on the don't list when somebody teaches you how to do this activity. True. True. It is the thing you're not supposed to do. People who know better will
tell you. That kind of high risk. And there there's difference between And, you know, the the dungeons absolutely. I I know, at some point in certain dungeons, if you were going to do a a, a very risky or extreme scene, a lot of times the before you do the scene, the dungeons will ask you, you know, come talk to us. Sometimes depending on the scene. Yeah. Let us know what's going on, because that way if somebody comes to us and say, hey, this is
a little much, don't you think? They know that it's part of what is supposed to happen. Right. And that's if you know you are purposely playing with something that's got a lot of risk associated with it. Correct. Here's the thing that I you know, in terms of what a a dungeon could do or a a play party host could do, they would also have to actively know that the bottom had a pacemaker though. True. That's really hard to, like, oversee. You know, again Yeah. You you you know yeah. You you
can't know everybody's medical history. No. And I don't I'm not comfortable with the world where we ask for people's medical history in order to come into the dungeon just because that shit's private and
Yeah. You know? But also, when we start talking about who has should somebody, like, assume responsibility for stopping this, you have to know all of you either have to know all of the details or you have to see something or sense something where you think you should at least ask the question, hey, are you doing this as risk free?
You know, risk aware as possible. Right? Like if I saw two people playing with a Electraplay, short of hearing the not kind good kind of screams or hearing a safe word get disregarded, it would I would not clock it as something I need to Right. Pay attention to and go, wait, that looks risky. Now if you know the person, you're like, what are they doing? They got a fucking pacemaker. I was just in the waiting room for that, you know? Yeah. I took them to the
fucking hospital that day. That's different. But that's the thing. That's why it's tricky to place an obligation on a community to police it because you have to know in that specific situation, you have to know information. Now Mhmm. As we were prepping for this episode, I did start thinking of things where, wait, maybe somebody could know at from the outside Right. Without, like, knowing somebody's private information and be able to intervene. And and here I have in my
notes Mhmm. I have examples. Yeah. These are the ones I could think of. Okay. One is using a wax that is not considered the the air quotes safest wax for wax place. So soy to paraffin, anything kind of within those temperature ranges or lower. Anything Right. That is even milder than soy. Perfect. Into something like beeswax. Right. Now you would have to know the person's playing with beeswax, but, you know, people will tend to talk about their scenes if they're doing them in public,
and you can maybe learn that. Now If I know you're using beeswax and I and we are in a space that I am responsible for, or we something. Yeah. I think it's important to go, do you know that that is not a good idea? Now, X brought up a good thing, and, you know, I if you're in and you plan on doing electro play, I think that is a good good thing because, you know, even when you're doing a negotiation for any kind of scene, you know, are you on any kind of medication that would
have Absolutely. That's not even a question. Electro play, yes. Tell the person you got a pacemaker so the other person can go, well, guess what we're not fucking doing. What I'm talking about is walking into the dungeon saying, hey, we're gonna do an electro play scene. Mhmm. Is there an obligation on the part of the dungeon to go Now, maybe this is it. Do either of y'all have pacemakers because here's what you need to know. They don't have to answer, do you have a
pacemaker? Right. Or maybe, you know, if a space puts up, like, notifications of, hey, here's what we don't want you doing on our premises and electro play if you have a pacemaker being on the list. But here's the thing, this is why weird fucking, instructions are put on things because some dumbass thought what they needed to do was to touch the chainsaw blade while it was still going. You know what I mean? Like Or or stick their hand under
the mower. Right. Because somebody did something stupid and now a company is trying to, reduce their liability. Mhmm. And that would be the other thing I would think of, and this is a very capitalistic reason for a community or an organization to take responsibility for something like this. What liability does the location possess if Right. And and and that is something you can search. I don't know. I don't
know anything about that, you know. And and what would the what what would the top who did this face if something had happened? And I will say I think that I know that there are people who and Rah Rah might have one through Pink Kink. I'm not sure. That, there are legal professionals who will sometimes do workshops that happen to be kinky and go Mhmm. Here's some of what you need to know. And I don't I'm not gonna pretend I know
any of that. But I Right. I could see where a dungeon might think about that, especially if they have to go through the horror of it happening Right. On their watch. So, yeah. The example I thought of first was the hot wax. If you actively know the person is using what we would consider a very dangerous substance for that, a very dangerous wax that could there's no, like, it's more of a the chances of you coming out unscathed are way lower than the chances of you getting a third degree burn
from that kind of situation. There's also an impact play. There are and there are a ton of diagrams across the Internet that will show you here are the safe zones for impact play. Correct. Right? And typically, we're talking, you know, deep muscle areas, the ass, the thighs, you know, we're we're not we're not hitting where there's like a spleen or
something. Don't do It's the same thing with rope, you know, there are there are things that tell you what nerve, you know, where you should not tie, where, you know, the nerves are too close that can do damage. And that's and that's a thing. If you are actively witnessing what is questionable behavior, and we've kind of talked about this in the past, we're talking about for people who are going to the dungeon the first time.
It's never okay to interrupt a scene because you can actually cause more harm than good that you're trying to do. But that's when it's like you, the dungeon, you grab a dungeon master at the monitor master. Mhmm. I said dungeon master when I meant dungeon monitor. DM. That. Look. Look. The Venn diagram between the whoever the dungeon master is on dungeon monitor, that's a circle. I know.
You know, or if you're at a play party, you could grab the host or whoever they've designated to be eyes because, you know, there should be some expectation of anybody playing in a public place that at some point, somebody who is, responsible authority in that venue could approach you. Right? That's a little bit different than some random stranger you've never seen and you don't know who they're supposed to be just coming up going you're doing it wrong and then what is happening here? Do I think
dungeons and play parties should have that? From a personal opinion, yeah. I think they should. How do you make that happen? How do you encourage that? Because here's the thing, we are talking about people's personal autonomy and a lot of people take really big fucking risks every day of their lives, and they keep doing it while they're unscathed until one day it don't work out, and they go, oh, maybe I shouldn't have done it that way,
you know. And that it's that is a fine line between, I don't think you should do that and I know what harm you could do versus how much actual control do I have over this. Mhmm. You know? And I can want people to not do the foolish thing. I can actively advise you, don't do the foolish thing. Sure. If I don't have any authority in a space, what am I how do I stop that? And you know what makes me nervous about this situation too?
And and not that I'm saying this is a it's it's a bad thing in a way, but nothing happened. They did the scene and nothing happened. And that's a scary thing because then there's Because then, well, we did it we did it before And we were fine. And nothing happened. That's called survivor bias. Yeah. I I lived through it, so clearly it's fine. Well, the next time you might not. So Yeah. But, again, that's where we're back to personal autonomy. Yeah. You know, bodily autonomy.
You get to do the dumbass thing. Mhmm. The the the line, most of us I I think maybe could agree, maybe not, is when your dumbass thing impacts another person outside of yourself, that's different. And I think and that's why I think public spaces like dungeons and parties have a lot of fucking leeway.
But the parties and the dungeons have to be run by people who have a a wide enough community and a wide enough knowledge base to be able to think of these things, to know who to ask, to figure out how they're gonna do their best to minimize as much risk as possible. And the reality is whether you're hosting a space or online, in person, when you are around people, you cannot think of every dumbass fucking thing they
could do Yeah. As well. So when we think about the responsibility of the space to mitigate risk, you know, I think we do have to be careful that that we don't assume that if risk happened that we know looking back definitely shouldn't have happened. Mhmm. Is this because it was poor a poorly run space or is it because Yeah. That creative human who just got hurt did something nobody could have thought of? I mean, you know, just like I've I've been to to some local parties
here. And, you know, at the at the beginning, before the party even starts Mhmm. You know, the host will kinda gather everybody around and say, you know, this this these are the house rules. Right. Right. This, you know, you we, you know, consent, negotiate. Right. You know? And, you know, I especially if you're hosting a party in your damn house Mhmm. Because I don't think your homeowner's insurance liability coverage is gonna give a fuck that almost other grown adults that they right. Yeah.
Because we at least here in The States, we are a lawsuit happy folk. Okay? Yeah. But, you know, there's I think if you are I think you can lay out specific things. Right? Like, if you know of them, like, you need to use the proper equipment to do the kink scene or we will step in and start asking questions. Right? The known things like erotic asphyxiation can easily go too far. Right? But I think I also don't wanna stress hosts and and dungeon folk out so much that they just don't
even have the space. I think it's a you have to learn as you go. These rules and these things that you will and won't accept and how you're gonna handle them are gonna evolve over time. But if you start if you start from a place that most people are gonna just try their best and do their best and weird shit will happen, but they're trying. And but there will always be one dumbass.
It's a it's one one of many reasons I'm not running out to have a public space because how do you walk the fine line between most people are doing their best and anything that happens is a freak thing. Right. And also protect the space from that one dumbass who's gonna show up. Because they
they always are eventually. Yeah. You know, I I think it's the most helpful thing that seems the most pragmatic to me is conversations in your community spaces online, in person where you're talking about these situations, not direct necessarily directly with the person who did it. If you can, great.
Please try to educate them. But to talk to other people because other people are gonna you know, as much as we all of us encourage somebody who's new to a kink to please go research it and maybe do a workshop and, you know, learn what the the the real risks are so you can, you know, whatever whatever. There's always gonna be somebody who was shopping online at night and went, oh, I've heard of that. Buy the toy and then their partner and not even have read the instruction manual
of the toy. Right? But if we can have these conversations about what it what you as an individual or we as a community, you know, what is acceptable, what's not, what's what do we mean when we say risk, right, versus high risk, there will be people who can, in the periphery, who will, like, through osmosis, get some of that information and they'll hear something that they didn't know. They'll be the lucky one who got bug zapped by their partner and lived to tell the tale, but then go,
oh, yeah. Maybe I need to learn about that. And that's when they go, oh, shit. I have a pacemaker. Why'd you come at me? Don't do that. You know? Some of that has to be experiential. You have to be in spaces where you can learn from other people, and the people there just gotta talk about, to the extent you're comfortable with it, your own experiences and what you know and what you've learned the hard way. And but, you know, there's no way to force everybody to know everything.
Mhmm. There's no way to police what anybody does in private. No. You just you just can't. None of us can. An Anisa brought up a a very good point had that, you know, I don't think either one of us really considered. Mhmm. You know, know, what if something had happened? Could you imagine what the top would be? So I'm gonna give my charitable view. I'm gonna assume the top really is well meaning regardless of yeah. They almost died, but they're hot, so it's okay, Connor. Alright. I'm gonna assume
they're well meaning. Yeah. That would have been one person's life either would have been over or they would have been severely injured. Right. That's already the thing they have to deal with. And then the person who did it to them? Whew. Yeah. That's that's traumatizing. That's traumatizing. And see this you know, we the conversation in our discourse are we really did focus on the public spaces because I think we all understand that's where the control might lie for these things.
But I think in terms of trying to educate people, so you think about these things in as ethical and as responsible a way that you possibly can with the information you have. The I'm less concerned about did the dungeon stop a thing because, again, in that specific scenario, how would they have known somebody had a pacemaker. Right? Yeah. Especially if both partners are enthusiastically consenting. I'm hoping it was enthusiastic and it was not pressure.
So, you know, I'll get the the public space has all the leeway because that's a thing they couldn't have known until afterwards. The thing to keep talking about and to keep to to make it a thing of, like, here are expectations for good and responsible doms and tops, is that the ultimate response? Okay. The ultimate responsibility is on the person who is having the thing done to them to know what the risks are and to
actually understand what they're consenting to. But empower dynamics, it is absolutely a responsibility of the top slash dom to go that no. That's that is so potentially unsafe. I I don't wanna do it to you, but I don't wanna traumatize myself either. And that's the I think it's a two pronged thing. If public community spaces are saying this is unacceptable, we will not accept this level of risk to a person. I don't care how enthusiastically you are consenting.
And also as people like us, people in you know, at your munches and you're talking about what you think makes a good dom or what you think makes a good scene. And we're talking about the ethics and responsibility of a top knowing the severity of the risk and still doing it. You know, a little bit of embarrassment and shunning, sometimes people learn from that. Again, you will never be able to control what they go off and do when no one's around. But Mhmm. You know
yeah. I just it's Yeah. I I mean, you unfortunately, you're not gonna stop people completely. You know, if they are unable to do it in public spaces There's no go to their house. They're gonna go somewhere, you know. Right. And that is a fine line. That is another reason I don't want to own and operate a public space because, you know, you have to walk that line of, do I want to keep even the dumbasses coming in so I can keep an eye on them? But at what point are they so unsafe?
I gotta let them go because I have a responsibility to everybody else in the building. Right. Yeah. Those are pressures I don't personally want at this stage in life because it should be pressure. It it should be stressful to try and figure out how you walk that line to keep the maximum amount of people safe and, you know, hopefully not have that one dumbass come in and severely hurt somebody, whether it's themselves or somebody else.
You know? And I think most good spaces that I hear about, you know, obviously, my our primary experiences, what we hear about across The US, but, you know, in other countries as well, is those spaces where education is as much a part of that dungeon, that community center, that whatever as the play. Right? There's a component that they go together. Even, you know, back when we were in the Tampa Bay area, the local dungeon was really small and it was it was privately owned.
And the Munch was hosted by other people, but the people who ran the Munch knew a lot of people would go to this club if they if they were welcome and they could get in. And so the Munch was like, okay. Let's bring in people who can do demos. Let's bring in people who can talk and teach you how to do this stuff. Because we already know you have access to a space even if we don't control the space. Right. We can offer this to try to help people avoid as much
risk as possible Correct. And to play, you know, knowing what they need to know. Right. To make educated decisions Right. To the best of their ability. Yes. Now in thinking of this specific situation that started this whole discussion, what what I desperately would want to know is how enthuse what did the bottom know about electroplay? Yeah. And how enthusiastic was that consent? Mhmm. Yeah. Did they know that somebody with a pacemaker should just don't, just don't, just don't, just don't.
Or were they not aware of that part? Or, you know, were they, air quote, convinced that this would be fine, especially by somebody who maybe has gone, I've done it all the time. You know, I don't I don't know. That's that's a lot more telling to me. You know? That's true. Because then that's where it goes back to the top. That Yeah. That that would have been a a full failing on their part.
When we talk about somebody who, in this case, has the pacemaker and knows it's a bad idea and makes the choice anyway, the only actionable thing is is it allowed in the space that you're in? Does somebody else control that space? And can they can they say, this is a thing we don't allow here? Because it goes against best practices we already teach. Because it's you know, this is a a risk of bodily harm that's greater than any of us want to bear the burden of that responsibility.
You can go home and bear the burden of it, but not in our space here. True. True. Right? Because people who are running a space like that, whether it's a play party host and it's your damn house, do think about your liability insurance, or or, you know, a dungeon, they do have to think about everybody in there, not just that one person. Mhmm. So I think it is perfectly acceptable to go certain things aren't allowed. Yeah. The rub is, is it something they can know about ahead of time? Right.
Right. I mean, yeah. I you know, just like just like people, you know, dungeons and and, you know, spaces like that, they are allowed to have their own boundaries. They have to. Right. You know, like, part of, like, what I I said in the conversation on online, you know, they they have to the clubs, they have to adhere to state laws Yes. In order to operate. Yes. You know? So they they have to follow certain guidelines with the state to keep open. And if they've got business insurance,
there'll be some guidelines there too. Right. That insurance Re regardless. You know? Yep. So And, you know, I I my idealistic self hates the fact that we're making rules not based on what's right or what's ethical or what's responsible, but, like, how do we not get sued and, you know, have to pay out a crap ton of money or the insurance company that won't insure us if we allow certain things or, you know Yeah. But that's the practical side of it, you know.
If you are a person out there who's thinking maybe I wanna have a dungeon one day, those are part parts of it that you have to consider as well Right. Beyond just the what's, you know, what's moral to me and what's right to me. Yes. And also and sometimes the and also from an insurance company or your state laws or your local laws Yeah. Can actually provide a bit of cover. You know? If your local laws do not allow certain activities that you wouldn't want in there anyway, it's
it's very easy to go. There's no pushback. We this is illegal. We're not gonna do something illegal. Yeah. You know? But now the the hard part is ex and I I've spent years getting to this point and to the point I know I sound very probably heartless and very, there's a word I want, ambivalent, and I'm not. I'm I have deep personal feelings about what I think people should do. Right? Like, I'm a judgy bitch on the inside. Right?
In my head, I will have the conversation about, well, that's a dumbass over there. But speaking to people whose lives I cannot even imagine, for as long as we have, the thing I have had to come to accept and to come to terms with is I can tell you all day long, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that. And know that I have not a lick of fucking control. And if I Excuse
me. Spend more of my time worried about the people whose actions I can't control at all, they're gonna do what the fuck they're gonna do. Because sometimes you gotta fuck around and then find out. I'm not actually helping anybody else. I'm, like, in a constant state of stress of people are doing things wrong. And, yeah, maybe they are, but all I can do is share my view on it, share my lived experience on it, share best practices, go here's why I don't think that's a good idea. Right?
Mhmm. And hope that the message gets to the people who need it. But I can't walk around going, you know, letting myself letting my the way I view the world, letting the way I interact with people, especially in the kink community, be painted with that. Everybody's doing everything wrong and if they don't do it right because then then you are just coming across as the judgmental bitch you are. Even if you're right, if nobody wants to fucking listen to you, who cares? Who cares?
So I am not actually ambivalent to it, but I just have accepted a lot. You know, I think it's also raising a child who would do what the fuck they wanted no matter what you said. You just get a little bit, like, immune to it. Like, yeah. Yeah. Some people, the moment you tell them go, that means they must stop because they, you know, they will not heed advice. They will not do what they're told. So Very, very true. You know, how would
I run a space? Yeah. I would have I would have rules around, okay, you're not gonna do things that we literally are teaching you not to do. We're not gonna accept that. We will, you know, safely safely as possible stop this scene and you will have to leave or you'll have to adjust. You have to do something where we're not gonna allow this. And if somebody asks me as we're kind of doing here, I'm a tell you, don't do that. Don't do that. You eventually, you're
gonna regret it. Don't do that. You're unsafe for the person you're playing with. This is not ethical. This is not responsible. Don't fucking do that. And then I'm gonna accept that people are gonna do it. I'm gonna hope we reach the people who just needed to go, oh, shit. I didn't know that. Okay. I'll take that and I won't do that, but because I now I know. Or, oh, I didn't think of it that way because I haven't had that experience yet. Right? So and I know not everybody is as
anxious as I am. I'm I'm always worried about all of the worst possible outcomes, which is why I don't do a lot of things. I'm too worried about the risk. And some people just don't think about the risk until they have no choice. You know? So I think if whichever side of the slash you're on for play or for dynamics or for relationships, you need to figure out where you stand and then that becomes a line. That's a
line in the sand. If you get somebody who's like, yeah, yeah, I know we're not supposed to hit you where the soft tissue organs are, but I really wanna hit you there. Well, nope. Now we're playing outside of my limits and I know enough as that individual who has educated myself and had enough experience or been around enough people and had enough conversations, then I'm not gonna let you play with me.
Can't protect the next person who doesn't, but if we all keep kind of being in community with our with each other because it's not just educators and content creators who can share the message. It's whoever, you know, if you have that thought, if you have that experience, if you've heard this thing on, yeah, I agree with that, you can have that conversation online with somebody who wanders in and is like, yeah. I'd like to pour hot beeswax over my partner's genitals. You could be the one
to go, don't do that. You know, here's why. I'll be right back. Did you hear a doorbell? No. Too bad. You gotta do something else. So Debbie's leaving me here at the mic and even somehow, quite what to add there, but that's not me repeating myself. I think that, if you know you're risk averse, I don't think you should ever feel pressured to relax all of that risk aversion, not in ways that make you feel unsafe.
Even if it is considered ethical behavior, even if it is within the confines of what, you know, is best practices of how to do a thing. If it's a step too far for you, it's a step too far for you. I do think if you're the type of person who does not worry about risk at all, BDSM is the one time to start worrying about risk a little bit because everything we do in kink comes with risks.
And most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time it's gonna be from a a sloppy moment, a, lack of focus for two seconds, a a genuine mistake. And most of the time, if you're not a a risk averse person, you're like, whatever. You're probably gonna be fine through that most of the time, but it's those big risks. It's those you could literally be in the hospital after this. You could be dead. Mhmm. You could, you know, have third degree
burns. You could, you know, change the course of your life forever because you did that, like and there and if you're like, yeah. But I I'm not risk averse, so how do I know? Because it's on the don't list of how to do the fucking thing. Yeah. If it's on the don't list, there's a reason for it. And if, like, this person, this top we're talking about and the bottom, just because they survived at this time is no guaranteed survival the next time. Good. It's
like playing Russian roulette. And anytime somebody says, well, I did the thing everybody says not to do and I'm fine. That I think I'm using this term right. Somebody correct me. But I believe that's called survivor bias because it's the well, I it's the I lived through it so it can't be that bad or I lived through it so it's not a it's, you know, it's no problem or it's I lived through it and I will always live through it. Not no. No. Not necessarily. So
anything you would add? Because apparently, I went off on a tangent and made myself hot and sweaty. Nope. So let's go back to our initial questions, make sure we actually sort of answered them as much as we want to. Right. God. Thank you, rah rah, for this. Okay. Is there a point where even if both people fully consent, the risk is too great and the scene just shouldn't happen? Yes. Yes. Who gets to make that call? Can a community or dungeon decide that some
kinks are too dangerous or cross line? Mhmm. If you control the space, you get to make those decisions. Let's let us add this for our some kinks too dangerous. I don't know how long ago because I don't even know what time is, but I recall semi recently when FetLife had to wipe certain kinks completely off the site. Couldn't mentioned, couldn't be linked to, could no pic none of it. Couldn't have any of it. And I remember Yeah. Kinksters being
livid. And I don't even if to me those were very those were extreme kinks. Other people would go, no. Not if you know what you're doing. And blah. Right? And I understood people's anger, but I also understood where FetLife was coming from because they had people outside of their control dictating what they had to do. And so this is a ripple effect. So FetLife controls its space,
and it gets to it's it's sandbox. It FetLife gets to make their own rules, but they are also controlled in this case by the payment processors Right. The credit card companies, the banks, financial institutions. And as somebody who has been kicked off many a thing because we do kink and sex stuff, financial institutions don't like kink and sex stuff. Right? Right. Even if it's it's And and they're responsible kink and sex. To a certain extent,
you know, you can't blame them. I mean, things like, you know, was it Weinstein? Ugh, gross. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Epstein and, you know, all these things that are happening. Those people. You know, so so the banks, you know, they they wanna Well, do you wanna know what it really comes from? It's and I don't know how I don't know
the details on this. But what is said is that a lot of fraud and a lot of scams and a lot of theft comes through high risk industries and websites, and sex, kink, stuff like that is in that. In that bracket. Right. Okay. So that is not fair though to paint everybody with the same brush. And Right. Thankfully, there are companies who are, you know, willing to work with us so we can still be in business on the Internet. But in that case, it was my understanding
was it's fairly big. Financial institutions were dictating FetLife's actions. And FetLife said, I wanna continue to have a sandbox to play in. Mhmm. And there is nobody to go to other than whoever it was. I'm gonna abide by their rules. And that's such that's gonna trickle down in some of those cases.
So, you know, it's where I go back to, the insurance company of a dungeon might dictate what they will allow in that space regardless of the law, regardless of what the person who owns the space is willing to do. And so there will be outside factors just as much as anything else. So the control is only applicable in a space that some in somebody else's sandbox. Right? Which is scary because it means a lot of crazy shit happens behind closed doors, but
that's where all those headlines come from. People who Yeah. You know, who because oh, god. I I read one and I was just like, wait. I learned this lesson at five. How did you not know this lesson? They were playing with choking and asphyxiation and plastic bag overhead. I look. I know not everybody has all of the same access to information. I do not know how you get to the big age of, like, 50 or 60. I can't remember. It's it happens too frequently. I can't keep up with who all they
were. And you don't know that we don't do that. We don't put plastic bags over our fucking face. Right? Yeah. But that was behind closed doors, and it made it out into the public sphere because there were criminal charges. Yeah. You know? I mean, if I'm talking to tops and doms, that's the thing I'd ask you to think about. I want you to be ethical and responsible and and care as much or more about the person you're about to do a thing to than yourself. But also, wait, if this goes wrong, am
I gonna get arrested for this? Right. You know? I mean, I here's the thing. A person who's willing to, like, flout all common sense probably is not thinking about that either, but somebody will. And that's the thing. We get peoples in people to change in drips and drabs. You get one at a time. We can't I can't walk into a space and 20 dumbasses who are like, yeah. Let me zit you in the in the pacemaker. Not all 20 are gonna agree with me, but maybe I get five. Well, then maybe
we save five people's lives that day. Right. You know? And that's Yeah. It's a it's a ripple effect. So Yeah. And I mean, you know, you you don't know what to say in in a case like this. Is is this a case of not being educated? Mhmm. Or is this a case of two people just being Dumas' and, Dumas' Were you tired of my dumbass? Some way of saying it. Look. Look. If you're gonna be a dumbass, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. I'm gonna say dumbass.
Okay? Yeah. My thing is always I'd rather be a smartass than a dumbass. And that's my whole life's philosophy. And you do it well. I do. I do. I'm very good at it. But, yeah, that so we go back to I got paranoid. I had to go look at our screen, make sure the camera was still working. You know, who gets to make that call? That's a public space thing. Yeah. Policing personal autonomy.
You know, when I think about the policing personal autonomy thing, it really is you get to do to yourself whatever the fuck you want even if I think you're a dumbass or a demoss. But when your actions impact somebody else, and when we talk about consent, I'll probably I will give side eye and call both of them dumb asses. If both parties of the scene knew the seriousness of the risks and still did it together, well, you're both stupid. Okay. I hope you do not find out now that you fucked
around. I hope that for you because I don't want anybody to come to harm. But the thing I'm gonna lean towards the most because I think it's the most common is one party has all the information or more information than the other one and is that party sharing it. So everybody is understanding exactly what they're consenting to. And that to me is is a big problem. How many tops and so called doms know what they're not supposed to do and but they don't they don't make sure their
question them and go, hey. I know this is a thing. I know I we can't do this if you have a pacemaker. Do you have a pacemaker? Mhmm. And the partner goes, yeah. I do. And they go, never mind. Or, you know, I just and that comes back to the responsibility side of the individual. And, man, having to wait for all of the individuals to have a healthy level of responsibility is is rough because it's never everybody who's, you know, not doing what's right. It is a small few, but they impact all of us.
Tire rules and regulations are created because a few people are Dumas'. Okay? So yeah. So that's what what I would say. Mhmm. Anything you would say? No. Anything you would say? So, I got myself heated. You did. We're gonna do a bonus section. Worked yourself up a little bit there. Yep. Before we go into our bonus section, two things. If you were like, oh, this was a good topic and, oh, I'm glad we have this discussion. Go, like, follow Rara. Go check out the podcast. Go follow our socials.
Go. Go. The link is in the Right now. Right now. Do just do what daddy said. And, also, if you're like, yeah. I do need to learn a little bit more about some things, consider, the BDSM boot camp. Jump start your BDSM journey. At least check it out to see because, you know, what it is about is there on the page. If you're like, yeah. I could use some of it. It's free. It starts July 14. I apologize now if you're on our email list. You will hear about it a few times. Okay. We we can go into
the bonus section. Where's that? I don't know where it is. You're the man who does the buttons. Mhmm. Without the buttons. I mean, I just push them because that's what I do. You do. So, are we good? I don't know. Keep it kinky, y'all. And we'll see you next week. Daughter. Mhmm. Can we talk to the crickets? Can I go run and get a hair tie? I'll grab it for you. Do you know where it is? No.
No. You're not gonna wander this house. See, I'm happy to send you if you would prefer to walk away and leave me alone again. Yeah. But I would like to send you to the correct place. Okay. Top of my vanity, there should be a hair tie. Okay. Thank you. I need to start keeping
some in here. Mhmm. But I also can't trust that I can keep some in here because once Onyx finds it if I'm lucky, I find it the next day maybe on the floor or, like, a couple feet away from where I left it, but sometimes I never see it again. I made myself very hot having that conversation. You know what? I knew that I would, because when I when I finally, like, sat down and started thinking it through, like, what what would an episode on this be like, I
started having thoughts. I started having thoughts, and I could feel the intensity of the thoughts. And then when I was talking to JB about it, because actually he was the one that was like, you know, we should do that. Let's talk about that. He started, like, getting a little intense and I was like, yeah. But now I'm hot and sweaty as a result. So what would you like to share with the class in the bonus section? So and actually the reason why I wanted to get it was so I could peek
out the door. You gotta tell folks why you're peeking out the door and being obsessed with our front door? So, I have a new toy on the way. Not that kind of toy, y'all? No. No. Goddamn. I wish. Wish. Yeah. My lathe has been dying. It is dying. If you don't know what a lathe is, it's a spinning thing. That's how he's able to, like A wood lathe. Make handles and make pens and make things that happen to be round. And all angles and Mhmm. Make round things. All that kind
of stuff. Mhmm. And, it's, it it's been dying, and, I have a new one on the way. When you got it, we we were both under the impression it was a very high quality brand. It was a well known, but Mhmm. Mhmm. And then we learned otherwise. So you actually got to upgrade Yeah. On this one. Mhmm. So that was cool. Yes. And, you know, we are are and have to be very circumspect about when we have to replace a tool because that is a financial investment.
Mhmm. And sometimes we'll wait well, basically, we'll mostly wait as long as we can until we don't have a choice. But JB makes a lot of things on the lathe, but the thing that has the things that have been the most popular for kinkery, the kinkery.com, were suffering as a result. It was harder to make them. Yeah. And I was like, but I need you to make me, like, 50 of them. And that's diabolical sticks, that's evil sticks, that's canes, that's canes of the red,
resin handles for canes. I was like, no. No. No. I can't. I literally cannot keep these in stock. We cannot have a tool that cannot do the job. Right. Right. Right. I mean, I did the math. I was like, x number of sales, and we've made the money back for it. So it we have to do it. Yeah. So it it's on the way, and, supposedly, it's supposed to be here this evening. Yeah. Because it was coming from Clearwater, which is not that far away from us. No. So,
yeah. That that's what, kind of that's what I've been waiting on. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep. Yep. And, yeah. That's, kinda been what I've been doing. Yeah. Yeah. Like a little kid. Mhmm. You do a thing at the where you go to the front door. So our front door, there's also a window, like, right in the foyer that you can kinda look out on one side of the Mhmm. The neighborhood, the neighbors. JB pretty much up the street Yeah. JB loves to just go stand by that window.
I think if you thought you had time and could kinda get away with it without people being weird, you would stand out on the driveway more just to kinda see what's happening in the neighborhood. Yeah. But you can do it from the house where, you know Yeah. It's not hot. And and you know what? If we had and I often thought of that because, my my first house, I used to love sitting out on the front front porch. That house had a front porch, and I had a little bistro table and, you know,
a couple chairs out there. And I I used to love to sit out there and I'm a back porch girly. Because on the front porch, somebody's gonna see you and wanna say hi. Why would I put myself through that? That's not relaxing. Yeah. JB love I don't know if you love it, but you give the impression that you real quick to say hi, to wave, to we were working in the garage together pouring cane handles. And, it was a time of day when people are going to work, you know. It's just
Yeah. And JB, every time he saw a cart, that hand went up. And it did, It's this big movement so that people could possibly see it. And I'm like, nope. Nope. I'm just gonna sit right here at my little table, and I'm a stir resin and pretend that They're they're waving at me, so I'm not gonna be, you know, I'm gonna because you are the one. They I'm pretty I don't sure they don't have any opinion of me in general, but any any of them that might, it's mostly that I am probably a bitch.
I am I am superficial figure you're a figment of my imagination. No. They see me too often. Look, I'm not I have the ability, as much as I might hate it, most of the time, if if a neighbor comes up, I can be the superficially polite, but then I'm running for the hills. Every once in a while, there's a day I just can't do it. Like, I, I don't I I can't. It's not a I don't want to. It's an I can't. But if I know that I can, I will?
I'm not, you know, because look. The thing about a neighborhood where it's pretty steady, most people are there for literal years. There could come a point at any time, at any point where one of us needs the other. And I'm not gonna alienate any fucking body. Now I'm not gonna try and wave to them and be friendly. But I, you know, I want them to know I exist and I'm not a complete bitch. You know? A partial bitch? I think we can all be forgiving of a slight bitch.
But, like, if something happened, I, you know, I do need to, like, know what the neighbor looks like to know. Can I run across the street? Can somebody help me pick JB up off the ground or something? I don't know. But but, you know, the nice thing is the the neighbors that you will have the best relationships with where you talk the most and it they're the ones I like the best. Mhmm. Is it because we have similar politics, maybe?
We're like this little blue dot on our street, and there's, like, at least three houses, and we There's Sometimes we come together and go over the probably, what, about several dozen houses on the street? On this street, I would say no more than two dozen. And, out of that, there's there's like three, maybe four of us. Mhmm. Yeah. So, you know, but, yeah. And, you know, I've been work doing a lot in the shop Mhmm. As much as I can with the heat. Mhmm. I have been digging through the garage.
I love it when you use up wood that you forgot you even know. I've I've I've just been digging through stuff. I've you know, no. It it's it's, I'm I'm on this. It's time to clean the clutter. Mhmm. Well, and, you know, it's summer time normally, I would say summer time is our slow time, and then we had an excellent June. Mhmm. Our summer sale helped, but we had an excellent June. So I don't know what the rest of the summer's gonna bring.
But in summer, short of wood lathes dying, we try not to spend a lot if we can. Even though that's also the time we need to be preparing for the holidays, which is very frustrating. But I've noticed in the summer, primarily, that is when you tend to focus on your scrap piles and what do I have because then we don't have to go to the saw mill and we can we can get some stuff out, you know, and clear some shelves and, you know, stuff like
that. Because a lot a lot of times, you know, working with the stuff, it's gonna be, you know, have a piece left over and, like, okay. Well, I'll set this over here for right now and get to it later. And, you know, and the next time up, I'll set this over here and get get to it later. And and, you know, I I I often tease him because he'll go, I forgot I had this. And I'm, like, I how many times have I heard
that? But I get how that happens. When you're a creative and you're constantly making stuff, you gotta stash things, and then you've already moved on to the next project, so you forgot what that stash was. You have a usually, you have a good habit of when you know you gotta put something to the side, it's not work you're not working on it right then. You usually take, like, a pencil and label it with what you intend
for it to be Right. Which he had to learn the hard way that I I don't know how to change direction in midstream. If you labeled the wood for one type of paddle and now you're telling me it's another type of paddle, I need a minute to process that because the label says it's supposed to be this. Just saying. Yeah. Yeah. Panda said in the live chat, the summer slump for small businesses and content creators is
very real. Yeah. So true. And the it's I still I know as a content creator that there's a summer slump, and every summer I go, oh my god. Do people just now hate us? Because it gets so slow in the summer. And then I have to do the no. No. No. It's at least for Northern Hemisphere. Is that how the globe works? It's summer for us. Where I'm like, no. No. No. It's summer. People are off doing shit. Like, they've got
people who with kids. We've got kids at home now, and there's holidays and there's vacations and all the shit going on. Nobody cares in the summer. So if you are a person who is still keeping up with your content, in the summer, we appreciate you because sometimes you're like, is is this thing on? Is anybody here? But every every year, ten plus years, because I've been doing content since before the podcast. Ten plus years every summer, I have that thought of, oh, god. They hate me now.
I finally did it. I finally found the the breaking point. I still don't know what it was, but it's probably something stupid I said in the last episode. And, no, it's just the summer slump. So the small business summer slump and the content creator summer slump simultaneously can be a little stressful. But, yeah, our, our June sales for the kinkery, because I I tracked that shit year over year, quarter over quarter. Like, I'm watching it. June is usually the worst month of the
year. If you saw our financials, you'd be like, how'd you pay the mortgage that month? Right. Bad. Best best June we've ever had, best sales of the year Yeah. Month monthly sales. I was like, how is June the best month so far? And we haven't had bad months. Like, we're we're doing kind of okay. I don't know. And knock on wood on all that. I do not wanna fucking jinx us. But no. So yeah. Little inside baseball frame.
Oh my god. My, my mother called me today and wanted to give the the 15 year old will be 16 in September. The 19 year old will be 20 in a couple of fucking weeks. Yeah. Jesus Christ. But my mom wanted to give the 15 year old a dog for their birthday. And I was like, you wanna give me a dog is what you're saying because who's gonna feed it? You know, or you, really, JB. Who's gonna feed it? Who's gonna make sure it gets what it need? Who's
gonna take it to the vet? I had to, yeah, kill it before I can see it. JB left the camera so he could go kill something that's clearly crawling. Oh, and whatever he sprayed, it made a sound, and I hope that was not indicative of what he sprayed. Okay. Good. And I I said and I said, the reason we don't have a second dog right now is I'm not taking on the vet care, the the food, the cost of that. That's, we're not gonna do that right now.
And my mom goes I said, also, the 15 year old is actually more comfortable with cats than dogs. This might not be a good idea. I will ask. This would not be allowed to be a surprise. Mhmm. And my mom's like, well, I'll help pay for the vet care if if the 15 year old wants the dog. I'm like, first of all, would Lola like that? We are not getting a second dog. I have to let her know, text her back, and be like, no dog. Yeah. Well, yeah. Interesting thing to talk about this
morning. Thing to consider too, you know, like I said, when when you were talking about it with me Mhmm. You know, you can't just bring a dog. You know, is Lola gonna get along with another dog or you know? And that really was the first thing I said. You know, and the cats too. And, you know But then a second, it was like cost cost cost. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because we want we do want a second dog Mhmm. But cost. So we've talked about we'd love we would be willing to foster. Right.
The problem is is that the places we know we could foster from tomorrow, they do not provide the the supplies, the vet the I think they might supply the vet care, but not, like, the food or whatever. Correct. The the place we got Lola from, they would take care of everything. They pay for everything. Everything, but we would have to commit to so many, events. And it's not the events, I think, that bother us. It's the it's a drive. It's Yeah. It I mean, it's not the
worst drive. We do it for the the oldest now, but it's still, like, the commitment is multiple weekends until this dog is would be adopted. Right. And we're constantly going, and we have to go to the vet in where they are, not where we are. Mhmm. I was like, if I, if I could find, like, a pity rescue that is here local Mhmm. That would kinda do sign me the fuck up, assuming Lola was okay with it. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're not here to stress our old girl out any more than we already do.
So but, yeah, that was it was a it was an I was like, my mother's trying to give me a live animal. Like, what? This is not a conversation we've had before. The time to try to give children a puppy is when they're, like, you know, in in my world, like, five or six, not not 16. But yeah. It's interesting. So Yeah. Yeah. You know me. I could and keep us going for literal hours and say nothing until a random thought popped in my head.
But I'm I'm I'm ready to You were you were ready for the the you you should stand up with a sign. I'm gonna go sit by that window. I'm gonna grab a chair and sit by that window and watch for the for the truck to roll down the road. If it wasn't so damn humid outside, you'd sit in the driveway, wouldn't you? Probably. Yep. Yep. I believe it. Sit in the driveway with the garage door up, and they're right in here. I hope that it it comes as planned
and that tomorrow, however quick Yeah. Quick it long it takes, you are playing with your new tool slash toy. Yep. That's what I hope for you. We shall see. Okay. I guess we should stop now. Yeah. One of these days, I'm gonna just do that. I'm just going live. We're just gonna sit here and it'll be random or it'll be quiet, but we're just here together. I'm not I'm not there yet. Okay, y'all. Thanks for, being here with us. Yeah. Especially to the bitter end. Mhmm. Mhmm. Always happy to
have you hang out with us. Yep. I hope, you know, we gave you some food for thought on this topic, you know, something to consider for the future. And, we'll talk to y'all later. Mhmm. Okay. Alright. Bye. Bye.