Dealing with Shame in Kink

You're listening to the Loving BDSM podcast, episode four fifty eight. Kayla Lords here with the one, the only, the I'm glad it's not just me that's sweating my ass off No. John Brownstone. And I'm I'm gonna apologize to everybody right now upfront. Sorry. Sorry for what? I am exhausted. I know. You yawned through our last recording. I I had a couple of long busy days Mhmm. And they've caught up to

me. Yeah. They have. Yeah. They have. I had to, get somebody off the couch and remind them we were supposed to be doing this whole, like, podcast thing we did. Well, she came to me and said, I gotta take a shower before we do this. And I was like, great. I lay down. Lola came up next with me and, took a power nap. Yeah. So this ought to be interesting. Anywho.

So it, it actually works out that this week's topic, JB let me unilaterally pick, and he let me not really tell him what it was about because it was a thing that happened to me that I haven't even told him yet, so he gets to have a first reaction. Oh, goodness. First saddest reaction. My goodness. And I and I can't even read it in the notes. No. Because I didn't I didn't write it down in the notes. The thing that happened. No. Actually, I think I did write it

down in the notes. Either way. Either way. Anyhoo. Anyway, but we are revisiting a topic we did last back in 2020, and that is, dealing with shame in your in your kink life, in your kink self. That's what we're talking about. Welcome to the Loving BDSM podcast. If this is your first time listening, glad to have you. If you're back for another week, welcome back. Loving BDSM is produced every Monday and Friday for your kinky pleasure in education, and show notes are found at lovingbdsm.net.

Come back often and feel free to add the podcast to your favorite podcast app. You can also follow the show on FetLife at loving BDSM PC, that stands for podcast, on Instagram and technically threads at that handle, I will forever motherfucking hate with the passion of a thousand fiery suns. It's loving d s on the number one. It's the dumbest handle ever. At loving d s one. Before anybody goes, you can change it, not to what I want. That is the problem. Anyway, on blue sky at lovingbdsm.

Blah blah blah or on YouTube at youtube.com/lovingbdsm, where you can watch us live stream the podcast every Wednesday. All links are in the show notes. Okay. Before we get into this week's topic, we have two announcements, and I wrote them down with no notes, so I better get this right. Oh, all three things with no notes. I better get this right. Okay. We're all dogging it. Yes. Very much so.

This Friday, October 17 is our Friday night livestream, our virtual munch, our let's get silly, where we just talk about all the nostalgic things from, like, and all the food. We've already established the superior bacon is the crunchy bacon. We don't have to go over this again. It just is. Okay? Jamie's face. Man, folks, come on. We we need more of y'all that like the floppy bacon. Oh, god. Come on. We we we gotta stand together with this. Your bacon should not slop. God. Ew. Anyway,

that does come up. Our our views on bacon are sometimes part of the conversation. But we answer kinky questions. We just hang out. We can be great background noise if you're like, I don't I don't wanna participate in the live chat. You don't have to. So that's coming Friday, 09:30PM eastern, October 17. For podcast listeners, that is the day this episode comes out.

Second announcement. The Wood Dom on Etsy, which is JB's vanilla shop, where he his he shows off his woodworking, and he has pretty things and nice things and helpful things and cute things and things. Great gift things as well. Things like this. Which only Things like that. I'm so sorry, podcast listeners. Yeah. Oh, yeah. JB's holding up a gorgeous pin that I have not put on the Etsy shop yet and pointing to one of our Halloween decorations. Anyway, we're having a sale over there. Mhmm.

The Halloween decorations are, slightly larger percentage off. It's the first time you've ever done that. Mhmm. We're trying a new thing. And then everything else is 10% off. There are things that have free shipping I will be adding more things to the shop over the course of the next couple of days. The sale runs through the October, so you got time. Getting ready for holidays, gift giving, whatever. You just want something cute for yourself. There you

go. The WoodDumb on Etsy. Links are in the places. Ta da. Okay. I just bumped the mic. I'm so sorry. Yes. Yes. Silent. It is a very nice pin. Those with southern accents know. And they get it. And they heard me. And they understood me. And really that's what language is. Did I communicate? And did you know what I meant? You did. Okay. Anyway, last thing before I get to the topic.

This week's, trans affirming care resource, is called strands for trans, s t r a n d s, Strands, as in strands of hair. It is actually a place where if you own a, like, a hair salon or you are a person who does hair and you welcome and affirm and respect trans people and you want them to know that they can come there and be safe and get their hair done, you add yourself

registry. It also the reason it counts for for our purposes and why it's one of my resources, it allows you to look up what salons in your general area or within a multi mile radius, are on the list. And I did that for our area, and there were three in town, and then there were several, forty five minutes sort of North ish of us in Gainesville. And then I I kept scrolling through the list, and I got even more. I could go to Leesburg. If you know, you know. I could go go to

DeLand. I could go to all kinds of places. I'm gonna say, so if you are a person who is a hairstylist or run a salon or you know somebody who does and you know they're affirming, great. Get them on the get yourself on the list. You never know who might be Mhmm. Using that. I cannot speak for anybody else who uses this resource, but I did learn a thing, and I'm gonna pass it along for anybody who might find it helpful. It is not enough for us I for

me. For me, I am one human, and I'm not even trans. Okay? It is not enough for me to see a name on a list that's supposed to be trans affirming. If I go to your website and you say nothing about LGBTQ, about gender neutrality, about respecting all people, it it so for anybody who's gonna use the resource, you should still do your research on the places that you happen to find in your area. And I did. And my short list is

based on who made it very clear. Like, I'm not just I'm not just gonna say I support trans people, I'm gonna show it. And that that does make a difference. And I'm one person, but I know it made a difference to me. Because when I'm helping out the person in my life, I'm only gonna take them to places where I think they have a reasonable expectation of safety.

See. But strands for trans for anybody who wants to be on that list because you own a salon or you work at a salon, or you, are trying to get your hair done and you wanna go to their a place that's gonna, you know, be affirming and safe. But just no guarantees. Do still do your research. Anyway, link in the places. Okay. Okay. Now I after all that, I need a sip of my diet Coke. Y'all I'm doing this and I'm only partially caffeinated for the day. It's just it just is. Okay.

What am I saying? I don't know. I think I was responding to a thought that I did not say out loud. That's gonna be a problem for this episode. Okay. We have done, an episode on shame before back in twenty fucking twenty. That is a lifetime ago at this point. It was episode two thirty six. Years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was episode two thirty six. I've linked it in the places for anybody who's never watched or listened to that episode or wants

a refresh. In that episode, we focused on talking about shame in terms of body image, sexuality, kink, the the things we might feel shame about even though we ought not to, but we still do. This one is more about what to do about it once you realize, oh, like, what shame can kind of manifest as what it can kind of look like that's not just that deep yucky feeling of, oh my god. Can I curl up and die right now? Metaphorically speaking. And then some suggestions that I

saw in enough places to think, okay. This might be decent information on, well, what the fuck do I do with this sense of shame and how do I, like, overcome it. Right? But let me talk to you about how we got here. And this is the thing, I have not told Jamie yet. It's a small thing, really. But considering some of the conversations we have around here, I think it's a little meaningful.

So I this happened while I was reading the first book in a series, which is a delightful series, that's very realistic with kink. It's Leather and Lattes is the Series by Katherine MacIntyre. Y'all, it's set in a kinky coffee shop that also has a dungeon attached. Those people are living the dream. Right? Wow. Like I don't like contemporary most of the time, but that I I made some exceptions for that. And it's very inclusive of gender identity and sexuality, and I like that part as well.

Anyway, every book's about a different couple, and it's very the kink is so realistic in such a good way. I love this series, and I'm sad that the next book doesn't come out till next year. But I was reading the first book. I think it's called Immersion Play. I think that's what the first book is called. Are did you start it after I recommended it? I can't find it. I'll point

it out for you. Anyway, that in that book, the two main characters, our love interest is daddy Dom, who, doesn't get to be a daddy very often. It's a very, deep connection for him when, you know, he he's trying to avoid love and relationships so he doesn't daddy dom very much. But he's met this guy who his defense mechanism is to brat. And I mean, outside of a kink context, it's not bratting. It's just, you know, being snarky, being mouthy, whatever whatever. Right?

And so we get all of the angst of them figuring out their shit and coming together and blah blah blah. But in the middle of I don't even remember what part it was. But I'm reading this book and I'm I'm loving all the characters. That that's not a big deal. But I'm reading this brat and I'm having this these thoughts of that. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. I wish I could do that, or I wish I did that, or what would that be like to be that

kind of brat now? If you were not new here, you know how I am staunchly in the camp of I do not identify as a brat, and I don't. I really don't still to this day. But I'm what's the word I want? Self aware enough that I will do I will do the look within kind of thing when I realize that some part of me is wishing for something that I've usually, like, don't want, can't imagine, have, like, adamantly said hell no to. So I did that.

And the and I thought about in the context of this character and what bratting looked like for them. Right? And how I view bratting from my own, like, my own lens of it. Right? And I thought, god. What would it be like to just tell JB no in a playful way or make me in a playful way or to not do a thing, hopefully in a playful way. And the the immediate visceral reaction was fear. And I went, oh, that was that was a big feeling. Like, at this point, I'm I've put the look aside. I'm

in my fucking head. We're we're doing the work. And I went, god, where did that feeling come from? And part of what I circle back to when I think about bratting is I how desperately I want to be obedient and a good girl. And I went, okay. But where does where's that coming from? Which I know where that's coming from. That is between me and a future therapist. Thank you very much. I I know.

But, I mean, it, like, knocked me off kilter for, like, a good twenty four hours because I was like, I don't want I don't really want to brat. Like, it doesn't appeal to me that much. But also, if I'm thinking about why I reject it and the and I imagine myself doing it and my first my response is not, oh, I just don't like that. It is this, like, gut response of, oh, no. I am bad if I have done that. Like, that comes from a place. Right?

Go ahead. Now, I you know, you're saying this and I and first thing that comes to my mind, you know, yeah, yeah, I I know you you you you push that line. You push that line hard sometimes. Mhmm. And, you know, it's you say it's not something you would wanna do on a rip. What if it was a part of a scene? I don't know. You would have to, like, be prepared for me to have to, like, nope out of the scene midway because the

feelings were too strong. Like, I you know, it's one of those things where you can know why you do a thing or don't do a thing. You can know where the feelings come from. You can under I intellectualize my feelings very well, and I psychoanalyze myself all the time, and I'm way too fucking introspective. I know the why. Right? I know that the goal would be to not be held back by the why and just try the thing out to, like, not have the fear or to be able to move

through the fear. Because sometimes you can't make yourself not be scared. You just gotta do it scared. Right? And I I know all of that, but that is not enough. Like, there's not on different things, not just about this, which brought up the topic of shame for for me. Also my Instagram algorithm brought up some stuff that made me go, oh, yeah. That's right. This is all about shame. Maybe we need to talk about shame.

But knowing what your air quotes air quote is supposed to do or what you could do and how you air quote should be, and be careful, we do not should all over ourselves over here. It's usually not very healthy. Does not make that Doesn't mean that it's possible. Doesn't mean that I can just wake up with that knowledge and go, oh, yeah. What I should do is just take up space and just do the things that scare me. And sometimes, yeah. I've done things that scare me.

But some things are so deep rooted Mhmm. That it is and this is gonna come up later when we're talking about shame. One of the ways to work through shame is to seek professional help. A therapist who is, you know, informed and has the ability to, like, offer those kinds of whatever whatever whatever's that you might need that might be beneficial. And it's, like, that's how because I know where it comes from. And I'm not getting into that here. That's Mhmm. But I know where that comes

from. And that's not a oh, I'll just do the thing scared. That is way too visceral of a it's too deep rooted because it's become and this is where, man, shame really fucking sucks because it can but it's can start to feel like a piece of your identity of why you do things or why you don't do things or how you are. And it that's just I mean, some things you just don't wake up on the next day and go, sure. I can do that now.

Let's just like, it's just maybe somebody else out there can, but I'm gonna need drugs and a medical professional is all I'm saying. So that that was the the thing that, like, made me think not think about bratting. Although I have had thoughts on that. I have noticed myself doing some things and I'm like, goddamn it. I think that that's not just toe in the line. Like, do I know that it kind of makes you a little nuts when I move a lot while you're trying to put on my

collar? Mhmm. Yeah. Did I absolutely enjoy your response this morning when you yanked me? And I was like, yep. That's what I was going for. And then when, oh my god. That's what I was going for. So I think I have it in me. We have, enough of trust and safety within our relationship where if I wanted to yeah. I don't think I'm able to on a conscious level. I don't think I can think about what I'm doing Gotcha. Without all the other stuff coming up. So

that was the inciting incident. That was the thing that made me go, woah. Because Now I'm very curious to read this. You need to read I think I think you'll enjoy the whole damn series. That's all I'm saying. And it, you know, it was both the I can't believe I kind of wish I was doing this, could do this, would behave this way, have this kind of fun.

But also I recognize and this is a thing where it's one of the many reasons we're, like, please don't use kink books and fiction as your how to manual. Because the thing is the safety of of a book of of a work of fiction where, like, in this case, it's romance. I know what the fucking outcome is. That's why I read it. I mean, I read for the smut and the sex and that's one too. But, like, my anxiety does not spike if I know these two fuckers are gonna end up together and then I don't know

how we're getting there. But I know they're so I know that this is a safe space for exploration. I also know, as the reader, I've gotten all the context clues of why this person does this, why this person is that, who this person is that they haven't told their partner yet, and who the daddy dumb is that he hasn't explained to his

partner yet. And you get all of you already know that as the reader, so there's this very sort of omniscient kind of thing of, well, I'm looking at bratting in, like, a very specific box. Right, of knowing that it's safe. You know what the reactions are gonna be

because you read the context clues. You know, it's not like being out in the real world where you can plan for every eventuality and still say the wrong thing or do something at the wrong moment or have you know, there can still be unexpected reactions. Right? So, you know, there's something to be said for for for any kind of sex or kink thing.

Sometimes for some people it needs to stay fantasy because you can indulge in the fantasy in a very safe environment where you don't have to deal with any of the unexpected weird or just human shit that comes up and it's, like, tied up in a bow packaged really nicely. So I'm not saying, oh, I wanna be a brat. Like, I'm not I'm not there

at this point. But it did feel weird to realize I was enjoying and kind of like inserting myself a little bit and going, oh, what would that be But the important part for everybody who's gonna be like, oh, no. You're really a brat and here it is. Here's for for this discussion, the important part, the thing that stayed with me was the feelings it the idea of trying it myself invoked. That there was something there because I if you had asked me prior to that, if after god. I've known I was kinky

since, what, 2012. You and I have been together since 2013. You know, if you ask me if I feel any sense of shame over kinks or anything I do or not at all. Like, I'm I'm comfortable with who I am. I know I'm safe with JB. I try what I wanna try, and I don't do what I don't wanna do. And there's you know, I never had that sense of shame over, oh my gosh. I'm a submissive. What does this say about like, I never had that.

And so that was the other important thing that it felt important was that you can be in an established relationship and know yourself really well and think that you're really confident and comfortable and whatever with whatever your kinks are, whatever your life looks like, and something can still fucking hit you like a ton of bricks. And this was mine. I didn't didn't expect it. I didn't expect it.

So then the Instagram algorithm apparently has been reading my Kindle, and it brought it started bringing up content about shame. And I was like, I didn't even say the word out loud. So it's not listening. You know, I'm sure my FBI agent is, like, traumatized, but but I started getting content fed to me about shame. Now I do get a lot of content about, therapy and psychology because that is one of my interests. So I'm sure that's where it came from. But I saved them because I was like,

oh, wait. We have to talk about these. Not because this relates back to my experience of the brouting. I mean, that was the thing that triggered it. Now we're talking about shame. Mhmm. Before we get into that, what say you about the revelation? About what we will What do you talk about? Before we get into what shame can look like or feel like? I I think it's a natural evolution for you. Okay. Okay. Because, you know, you you know, you're you're so close to being there.

And I look. Look. I I would love to live in denial. I have done that a few times, but I I will be completely fucking honest. There have been a couple of times lately where we've had a moment and I've walked away and and it's it's been thoughts I've had that I haven't things I haven't said out loud. And I've gone, holy shit. That there's no way that wasn't a brat moment. And I might have even said it the other day. Something happened. I don't know if I wiggled my ass.

I don't know. But I did something so that you would pay attention to my ass. And so then you went there for smack it. Mhmm. But did I ask for what I needed? No. Nope. Was I sassy and snarky? Absoloc and lutely. And so I got the response I wanted, and I walked away thinking that worked. And then I went, what is happening? So when I go through And then what happened this morning? I know. It's just saying that. When I do go through the evolution of okay. Maybe I'm a

brat. Yeah. That'll be a fucking episode. Don't worry. Okay. So this morning, I did not wanna get out of bed. Just jitting it all. And Jamie came in when he was ready to, like, start making his breakfast. He comes in, he gets his iPad. He you know, Onyx eats her food in our room most days. So he's getting the cat dish and we have a sort of a new routine where he'll come and he'll, like, I'll get my morning hug and we have a moment to just connect and it's delightful.

Well, as he kind of I don't know, you were walking away or you we were done with our little hug. I rolled over. I'm naked, y'all. I rolled over and, like, popped my hip out so my ass hopefully looked enticing in the dark with somebody who was not thinking about, you know, nude, you know, submissives in their ass. And he he started opening the door, and I went, hey. What the hell? He goes, what? I'm like, I my ass is just hanging out here. What the hell? And what did you do? Go

ahead. Tell him what you did. And I rolled her over on her back, spread her legs, and spanked her there. Yeah. I was like, no. That's not what how this was supposed to take. You don't always get what you want. And I am self aware enough to know, absolutely, that's bratting. I I don't it's not happening with any conscious thought, though. And it is happening over things we have not done in a long time and I really I gotta do some deep diving into

myself before that's a topic. That is not what this episode is about. So yeah. I know. I mean, I'm not ridiculous enough to think that you probably have not seen it or figured it out or whatever the problem is. And then here's an here's another thing. Here's a little bit why I don't wanna brat. Because this sadistic motherfucker, literally, I'm a mother. He fucks me. Will do the absolute opposite. If I don't just ask for what I want and then wait patiently for it, I will not get

what I want. So where is the incentive for that? I would just be thwarted all the fucking time. And I will say the fight, the push pull of that, I don't usually find anything enjoyable about that. I want what the fuck I want. Yeah. Like why am I gonna do things that I know mean I won't get what I want? Like but, anyway, that's a whole different topic. We are completely off topic now. So I have this thing realizing, oh my god. I'm feeling it's a sense of shame. It's

the fear. It's this or that. And then Instagram algorithm serves me up stuff about shame, and so I saved some of it. K. And there's two posts that were kind of a back to back from a therapist. Now, let me do a disclaimer here. Okay? It is very we all know, you know, the Internet and social media especially is where nuance goes to die. Okay? We know that. We also know that there are people, and if you don't know, now

you do. There are absolutely people who will just post the most batshit crazy stuff because they want the clicks, the views, the money that comes with that, whatever whatever. So when you come across therapy kind of speaks, psychology, pop psychology, you gotta take that shit with a grain of salt. Okay? Now the thing I'm gonna say about this content is something that it's taken me a

long time to wrap my head around. It led to a lot of confusion for me trying to figure out who the fuck I am when the Internet was actually not being helpful, which is things that in this case will be identified as based on shame could also be based on something else. Right? We things overlap all the time. Your reasons why you do a thing overlap with other

reasons out there. The way humans respond to different things can be similar but have different, you know, entry points, have different starting points, but they're not always all the same. Okay? And then, of course, humans have this great ability to defy all of the air quote rules and behave in a completely different way than anything anybody can list. It's all very personal. It's all very nuances, all all very dependent on you and your situation and who you are and blah blah blah blah.

Right? So to the extent that you can, realize that some of this might sound like you and it might not be shame. Or some things you'll be like, I know I do things that are shame and you're not listening to them. That makes sense too. Okay? That's my PSA about letting the Internet diagnose you with shit. Okay. So things I didn't realize were actually shame. I'm not gonna read every single one of them, but here are some that I recognize. Lola agrees.

Avoiding eye contact because you feel exposed, Brushing off compliments instead of taking them in. Feeling guilty when you rest. Staying quiet even when you have something to say. Do you see if that that one right there could have multiple reasons why why you might do that. Right? Over explaining so no one misunderstands you. Oversharing the hardest part so people can leave before you're attached. That absolutely came up in at least one or two of the books in that series. Lola agrees.

Downplaying your wins so you don't stand out. Let's say, replaying conversations in your head worrying you said the wrong thing. Overpreparing so you don't fail. Over analyzing texts and conversations. And here's the thing, that can be from anxiety. That can be from other things. So be careful with some of this. Alola agrees. Being hyper aware of how you come across, needing constant reassurance from others. And then I found this other one.

Shame on the inside versus outside. Like, what you do outwardly and how you feel inside. Inside. Chronic self criticism. Believing love must be earned. It must not. But I I get the thinking somebody would have because I was like, I mean, yeah. But also what? No. Anyway, fear of rejection, guilt, feeling flawed or broken, extreme sensitivity to perceived criticism or disapproval, a lot of the avoiding eye contact. And

I'm like, yeah. But there are other reasons to avoid eye contact, so this is where there's no nuance. Right? Outwardly, masking emotions, over apologizing, people pleasing, extreme independence, which kinda makes sense because if you're like, I can't let you see me need anything, and I can't trust you to be there for me. But again, that can

come from other things. Right? Right. Overexplaining or justifying oneself, self deprecating humor as a shield, shutting down or withdrawing when feeling emotionally exposed. I don't know what you're talking about with that. So when that came up, I was like, fucking hell. We gotta talk about Shane. So that's that's what we're doing here. Here. I what I did when I realized we'd had the twenty twenty episode, I was like, well, that's a long fucking time. And shame is not

a new concept. It's been, you know, studied and discussed and whatever whatever well before 2020. So I was like, okay. What's what's been going on in the past five years? What are how are people talking about it now? And I did find several resources, including a study, that looked at sexual shame specifically. And that was, you know, when you when you do a Google search for, like, general shame, you get

general answers. Mhmm. Sexual shame, you get more specific answers, but still didn't quite fit in with, you know, shame over, you know, kinks that you might have or your feelings about kinks or, you know, your feelings about your kink identity. Right? So it's a lot of, as usual, extrapolation and, trying to kind of piece it together, and when necessary, seeking professional help. So here, I've got the links in the places to all this if you wanna take a look at it. But here, I've got

notes. I gotta read them. Bear with me. So, one of the things is shame, feeling like exposure and vulnerability, truly being seen. And, yes. And I find this ironic because prior to this moment, I would have been like, oh, I love JBC every bit of me. The good, bad, ugly. He has seen me in some things I I wish nobody could, you know, see me as or see who I am. And yet, I still do have that. I I feel like ripped open, flayed as if like it's everything's exposed and you're gonna

see the real me. And I don't have the sense of, oh, he's not gonna like it. I get the sense, like your childhood trauma, of, oh, I am bad. Because that's the thing. Shame and guilt get conflated. Shame is, I did a bad thing. No. I'm sorry. Guilt is goddamn it. Guilt is I did a bad thing. Shame is I am bad. That's a very not nuanced binary way of thinking about them and separating them. Guilt is actually a good thing to a certain extent. If you did a bad thing, please feel bad about it and then

do what you can to repair. Right? Shame though is very internalized. It's very identity driven and it's I can't imagine a scenario where it is helpful. And that that is a thing that I have noticed when there are parts of myself that I'm like, god, I wish I just had the confidence to just do that, be that, whatever. And when I let myself think deeper, it comes out as I am bad. And I don't I don't want you to see that I am bad. I'm not bad. I'm perfectly fine to the extent anybody can be in 2025.

How does that resonate? Not my feelings, but Mhmm. That shame being as truly being seen, afraid to be seen, having feelings about like, do you does that resonate with any of your own experiences? Yes. Oh, yes. Absolutely. And, even now sometimes as much as we have, you know, our relationship that we have that we talk about so many things, sometimes there are things that are are difficult for me to bring up too for that reason. So, you know, I I think it's something that

can affect anybody. Oh, of course. Of course. And for a multitude of reasons. Somebody in live chat, you know, pointed out religious Shane from, religious teachings or upbringing about kinks, about sex, sex, about fucking anything. Yeah. The people I see online who talk about kind of deconstructing their religious upbringing and what they were sort of taught and whatever. Yeah. I I can I can see where that would be very tough?

Is there anything that you're willing to share where you've had those moments that whether they're kink related or relationship related, anything where that still kinda comes up for you? Not not off the top of my head. No. I'm gonna I know you'll tell me, I don't wanna fucking talk about that, so feel free. When you realize that what that you,

are depressed, you have depression. Mhmm. Especially because I know we've kinda had conversations where you're like, oh, I oh, oh, that's how I've been feeling or that's where it comes from or when that initially happened for you, was that a thing where you kind of, like, I did with submission. Oh, okay. It makes sense. Or did it lead to down the road that could lead to shame? It was it was for me, that was a slow burn. Mhmm. Okay? You know, with with kink, it was like a a light

bulb moment. Right. Okay. And then you were shamed by other people for for it. We talked about that in that twenty twenty episode. Right. Shit. The reason I ask is you have moments where you're being vulnerable with me Mhmm. Where you kind of remind me of you make me think of what you probably were like you make me think of your inner child of little JB who should have had people protect him and love him. And you kind of have this you've never said it, but you've got this air of, am I

bad? Did that happen because I'm and that's a shame kind of feeling. And I don't want you to feel like that, and I'd like to kick the ass of everybody who ever made you feel like it Anybody bad? But it I know it can still be there. That comes from a mother who consistently told me I was bad My and that I was gonna be struck down. That religious bullshit'll fuck you up. So that's that's where that came from with me. But that's what I'm saying. Some of that gets internalized even if you don't want

it to be. Even if You know, now, at fucking 64 years old, I look back and I'm like, okay. She told me consistently how bad I was how bad I was. So I I did what she expected of me. You did just you did just And and I became a bad kid. I did. And and Yeah. Self fulfilling prophecy. Pretty much. If if I am this, then I would be I was treated as being bad Right. Even if I wasn't. So I became bad because that's what was expected of me. Right. Yeah. Self fulfilling prophecy. Right. For

sure. For sure. Like I said, do I wish I could, like, physically harm the people Yeah. That treated you poorly? Yes. I would love to go back. And that that's what I've used the time machine

for. Yeah. But, you know, with with with with my depression and and a lot of the realizations that have have come along with it since since I've been diagnosed, and I know what is happening with me, For me, the the shame that I feel with that, is like, oh my god, this is something I have probably dealt with all my life, did not realize it, I I buried it somehow and managed to to function. Yeah. Yeah. And and and there are times I find myself asking myself about the, certain situations.

The way I see them and and experience them and perceive them, was that me or was it the depression? Mhmm. Mhmm. Because I I have come to realize, when I hit my lows, the bad talk that goes on Sure. Oh, yeah. Okay. And it's not always just, about me. Mhmm. And, you know, I have to ask myself, how many things throughout my life had been skewed because of the depression? Mhmm. That's where my shame comes from with it. Wish I had a magic wand. I know. But you don't have

to feel shame. I know. Because there's nothing shameful in that. There's there is nothing shameful. You are not bad. You did not do life wrong. None of that. But it is very easy for me to say it and a completely different thing for you to internal Whether that's to get angry at the way you were treated at the things that led you there. To, you know, have whatever other feelings you might have Mhmm. About all of it.

Let me just interject here because the thing I was about to say was, and that is what a great therapist can help with. Wait. We blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We have linked in the places to a link we use all the time. We recommend all the time, Kinkaware Professionals, so that you can look in your basic area. If you're looking for a therapist or if you're looking for like any other kind of service professional, then you want them to be

Kinkaware. Yeah. So anybody who is resonating with this and you're like, yeah, where the fuck do I find one? And I can tell them I am kinky. That might be a resource. Yeah. I mean, part of the reason I have, poured a little salt in that wound, which is not was not my intention, but to try and get you to talk about it a little bit, is more dominance. Need to see dominance who are like, yes, I deal with depression.

Yes, I've had feelings of shame. Yes, I've had to overcome all this, and I am still a pretty decent fucking dom. The most amazing dom ever, but he won't say that about himself. You know, like you I think you might be a little biased, but thank you. Who gives a fuck? It's my show and my microphone. Say what the fuck I wanna say.

And and that is also important. I think that submissives in general, if you tend to be an introspective person or if you are getting therapy and working through your you know, it's not completely uncommon in my experience with talking to kinksters for it to feel like it's a lot of submissives who are like, yeah. I'm I'm feeling a sense of shame because I'm submissive. That's usually from cis women. Right?

Or, you know, I know I'm doing this because of that or I've had to, like, grapple with these feelings. Again, it's not everybody, but it's just in my experience. That's who I've seen having these conversations about themselves and with themselves is submissives. And dominants seem to think they gotta walk around all, like, stoic and stern and calm, cool, and collected. And look, in a scene, I am down with that shit.

You are still a fully formed human with all of the bullshit that comes along with that, And you are not immune to these things. Quite frankly, if regardless of your, power dynamic and and your role, you know, it is extremely common. Most people do push that shit down. Whatever you push down will come out in other ways. You know? It it will. Eventually, it will. But, you know, I think sometimes we have I don't not saying pushing anything down and repressing things is

good, actually. That's not what I'm saying. But I do understand sometimes having to kinda go, you have to go this feeling has to go on the fucking back burner because I gotta get through life, and I gotta go to work, and I gotta pay bills, I gotta raise kids, I gotta do this, I gotta do that. But to the extent that any of us can, try not to wait until it has exploded out of you in the worst possible way to go deal with that. Right? Deal with that in whatever that way that might mean

for you. Because usually once it explodes out, you know, that's when relationships get burned down. That's when, you know, whole lives get burned down because you push down, you push down, you push down. It comes out and it comes out sometimes very destructively, you know, in a ways you would never have intended, you would never have wanted, which is why you kinda we need to have these conversations.

If you are in a safe relationship and you know that you can trust your partner with this kind of level of vulnerability and intimacy, to the extent that you can have these conversations with each other. Just be open and honest. You don't have to try and fix one another. Please don't. Unless you are, like, a professional who could do that if it wasn't unethical to do that to somebody you're in a relationship with.

But, you know, it's sometimes just being able to listen, and you'll know you're not alone when they're sharing something. And sometimes, just hearing, no. You are good enough. No. You it doesn't fix anything, but it can be like this balm. You know? It's like, oh, I'm loved. I I feel like the love right now. I wish I could believe it, but I do feel loved. So here's the thing I found in a couple of places that I really liked. So

it's like fighting against shame. And I I it was talked about both was talked about within a kink article I read or just somebody who's kind of like affirming because we're you know, shame could come

from so many sources. I feel like maybe one of the articles on on memory here now, they might have been like one of those very nice affirming, like, of all identities and LGBTQIA, marginalized identities and marginalized communities and who, you know, can be made to feel a sense of shame from the outside. Right? And so a thing I saw a couple times was as a way to fight back against shame, to work to free yourself from some shame. It's this idea that desire is resistance and liberation.

Being free, being who you really are and embracing it. And I'm thinking of it in a kink perspective, but it's not always that's not the only way. Just to be unapologetically yourself, which is hard. It's very difficult. That is I don't you know, part of the way I interpret that is it's it's almost like armor against somebody shaming you from the outside. If you are free, you know, you are free and you can be seen and you are confident in,

you know, in this case, your desires. What's you know, your kinks, the things you want, the the role you inhabit within a dynamic, you know, to just it's almost it's almost a fuck you to the kink shamers and, you know, the folks outside of kink non kinksters who immediately look down on it, immediately assume it's abuse, immediately think the worst of it based on not a single good example of kink. You know what I mean?

Because some of that that shame and those those the forces that want you to feel shame are coming from the outside. They are pressing on you. And the more of us the sort of the thinking is the more of us who are just free to be who we are because I mean, you have to tell everybody who you are, but you just live your life authentically, and you live as your most authentic self. It's a way it's a a type of liberation. They can fight back against shame, and with help from all kinds of other

things, probably help overcome it as well. You know, that's, like, my kind of little fantasy in my head of, what if I could just be fully I'm not sure the world is ready for that. And completely and unapologetically myself. Like, I am always admire whether it's content creators or fictional characters who just are who they are. And if you don't like it, like, not even on their radar. You know? They would never try to be purposefully rude or harsher hurt feelings or harm somebody.

They will do the repair of that, but they're not gonna apologize for showing up as their authentic self. They're not gonna apologize for, you know, being, you know, straightforward or not playing along with social niceties or whatever whatever. And there is I mean, yeah. There's a part of me that wishes I could you know, you've talked about this in past episodes. I can't remember which one where you're like, I wish more people could see how, like, funny and goofy and, like, crazy you are.

And I'm like, nope. That's not safe. That's not safe at all. And yet and yet the people I tend to admire the most, whether it's a parasocial relationship or not, you know, are the people who just at least on from the outside looking in, that's how they present themselves. It's just being unabashedly themselves. And I think that, you know, that kind of goes hand in hand with even because desire doesn't always mean sex. It doesn't always mean erotic desire. Desire can be what the fuck you

want, who the fuck you are. Right? It's an authenticity of wants and needs. And, you know, what would the world be like if more of us could be unashamedly ourselves? I can't imagine it. I think it'd be it'd be a wild and crazy place. Now the next one, and this is not new. This is talked about has been talked about for fucking ever. That shame, one part, you know, part of shame, it's rooted in societal conditioning. Right? What's normal and acceptable.

Mhmm. And I point this out because we are gonna get into a, you know, here are some things you can do to kinda combat shame and overcome it and work through it. And it is the retraining your brain to understand what's air quote normal and acceptable. So that's where, you know, your your religious shame comes from, the not, you know, the vanilla shame of, you know, I was I was taught that this is what sex is supposed to be. This is what marriage

is supposed to be. This is what you are supposed to do as a woman, as a man, whatever. What you know, all of that. Right? I mean, I would have thought I had a mostly kind of liberal upbringing, And so did not necessarily have outside forces making me feel ashamed of sexual desire or, you know, desire for kink once I figured out that was a fucking thing. And to a certain extent, I guess not because I learned I was submissive and I went, oh, puzzle piece clicking into place. I understand myself.

I'm not ashamed of this. I'm like, I'm excited to understand myself. But even in a non religious, non trying to be conforming to the world family, I certainly that was my family. They they were not like that. Because in this case, in this specific example, my mother everybody in the house, everybody in the family, nobody talked about sex. Like, you just you just didn't ask questions. And not for religious purposes, not for, you know, I I never got I was never told sex is bad, don't have sex.

I it was just literally we do not talk about that. Yeah. And I, as a kid, either realized or turned it in my head of, oh, it must be bad. So when I went through my rebellious streak, that's what I did. But also I was a dumbass because I had no education on it. You know? So shame can like, your society or your your surroundings, the people who are around you that normalize shit for you, they don't even have to be trying to, like, put you into, like, this narrow scope of

what it means to be a human. You know? Whether it's faith based or it's just this is what proper people do or this is what our culture does or whatever whatever. It can be even it could be from fucking neglect. It can be from I'm just not gonna teach you you a thing. I'm we're not gonna talk about a thing, or this is how I talk about a thing.

This is another common one I see typically with with cis girls and women who have, you know, many of us have poor body image issues, and it's not necessarily because somebody told us that we were fat or we were this or we were that. I got told that so I know where mine comes from. But alternatively, and this was a revelation for me because I got it externally. I was bullied and teased and treated very poorly. I know I know where that shame comes from.

But the other way that a lot of women and girls feel some sense of body shame is because they watched their mothers judge their own body. And, you know, kids are smart, extrapolated of, oh, if they don't like their body and it looks like that, then they don't like my body or there's something wrong with my body. So, So, like, you don't have to be outwardly shamed or told to feel bad about a thing to internalize

those bad feelings. Even, you know, it it's it's all of society when it comes to that though. I mean, you know, even if it's not your your parents in one way or another, you you look at a at a magazine. You pick up any magazine and and you're shown this is what you're supposed to be. Right. Right. Societal standards, the beauty standards, what's what's normalized, what's, you know, allowed in, TV and movies. I don't know a lot about this because this is not my area of expertise, but I saw

it on the Internet. I believe it's called the Hays expertise, but I saw it on the Internet. I believe it's called the Hays Code in Hollywood, was in effect for a long fucking time. And there were, like, rules about, you know, there couldn't be interracial relationships. You could not have two people of a two people of a different race could not. There would could be no kissing. There could be no, like, implication of fucking. There could be none of that. There were lots and lots of standards and

rules. That that's why in TV shows early on like I Love Lucy, they had separate beds. The fact that Lucy was pregnant on TV was like That was a big thing. That was a big thing. Right. But one of the things and I think it was in the Hays Code. I think I'm saying that right. Was that if somebody was going to be queer, they better die or they better be the villain. You could it to to show a queer person a happy ending was to normalize that air quote deviant behavior.

And so that's how subtle those messages can be, which isn't really subtle once you know it's there. But, you know, if your experiences as a straight cis person and you are the, you know, majority like, I'm I'm a white chick. Like, there are so many things that went over my head that were not my experience that I you know, it's looking back or being told explicitly, hey. This was a thing that I'm like, oh, shit. I see it now. You know? That's the privilege of not being in,

you know, having certain identities. You don't know sometimes the prejudice and the bigotry and the repression that occurs. But that was, you know, that I still hear people when they talk about gay people or queer people of any kind in TV and movies. It's it's called, Kill Your Gaze, which is that whole thing of they don't, you know, air quote, they're not supposed to get to live because

you're glorified. Like, it's it's awful Yeah. But it's so insidious that, of course, people internalize some sense of shame over it. And then you start living your fucking life and you try to be your best, most authentic self. And even when you think you're doing it, you can run smack dab into Into the

Into shame. Right? Now, when I looked at sexual shame because I was like, what is sexual shame, it cannot be directly correlated with, a sense of shame about kink because sex and kink do not automatically go together. There are plenty of people who do kink and it's not sexual for them. And certainly, there are plenty of people who are sexual and they're not kinky. Right? But I did wanna look at sexual shame because it can play a part if you're trying to just have fucking kinky sex. I

mean, tripped. Like, it's still there. So, from a 2023 study, and I linked it, the the the study was not specifically about, like, the cause of sexual shame. I think it was about, like, how people deal with it. It was a the study is interesting, but it was not directly related to this conversation, but I pulled this out. Sexual shame is a specific type of shame that refers to a feeling of disgust or humiliation towards one's own identity as a sexual being and is composed of three factors.

Relationship sexual shame, internalized sexual shame, and sexual inferiority. I'm not sure, like, I didn't find I didn't go down the rabbit hole of what the hell is sexual inferiority. And I'm not a professional of anything, so but the relationship and the internalized, I think you could pop out the word sexual and put in the word kink. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Because if you are told, taught, or otherwise somehow receive the message that liking this kinky shit means you're an evil person, you know, to be a dom, to to be a to be a sadist, to be an impact, you know, that you are an abuser. Right? Like, that that message comes from somewhere. Right? And I think that, sex and kink don't always go hand in hand, but some of those feelings of shame, I have a feeling, they overlap, you know, regardless of whether your kink is sexual or not.

You know? Because we are exploring taboos. We are doing things that if you don't have context for what we're doing, it it does look illegal. It does look illegal. And without consent, it is illegal. Right? So to know you know, you've talked about it many times before that you had to work hard to overcome the I can't believe I'm hitting somebody. Yeah. Because that that was something that was drilled into me. Mhmm. You know? Especially someone of the opposite sex. Right. Exactly.

Exactly. So I wanted to point that out because, again, shame comes from all kinds of places, and we have shame over an infinite number of pieces, parts of our of who we are. Right? And if the thing that you feel shame about might not be the thing that I feel shame about, but it it might still be kind of in the same family of shame. But sexual shame, is kind of a little bit its own beast. Because many of us, were raised in very puritanical kind of ideals

of what's okay and what's not. And then here we come, us kinky fuckers, and we're like, actually, we're gonna do all the things you told us we should not do. But we're gonna do it with communication and consent and care and, you know, not be illegal about it. And yet we to this day, even now, even with all the movies that keep coming out, baby Girl and Pillion, I wanna see that one. And if and whatever else has been out recently, like, it's either a joke or it's part of

an erotic thriller. It's still like Pillion, I think I'm saying the name of that movie right. It's, it's just now coming out or it's coming out very soon. It is it's d s. It's power exchange Okay. Between two gay men. And I don't know if it's a healthy power exchange. Mhmm. I know the the character who is the submissive definitely has he has the big doe eyes, you know. I'm like, yeah. You're the submissive.

And I know that in the trailers I've seen that that dominant seems kind of cold and aloof. And I'm like, I I I hope it goes deeper. Mhmm. I hope we see that that's not really, like but reading about that particular movie and seeing the trailers I've seen, Lola agrees, Made me think or made me hope at least that maybe this would be, like, one of the times that power exchange was not scary.

It wasn't part of a mind game. Like, Sanctuary, a movie we have desperately been trying to make happen on our, every other month movie night in our Discord. That's a, you know, it goes wrong because the dominant partner is not, accepting the safe word. Not in a way that they are perpetuating physical harm, but there seems to be blackmail. There seems to be something nefarious going on. And that, you know, either kink is the joke most of the time. Not always. The joke or it's part of like a, oh,

you're this is a thriller. This is horror. This is something bad is happening here. And I'm hoping that this movie Pillion, I think I'm saying that right, is truly just about a power exchange relationship. Because even there was another movie that came out this year, is a rom com but they used kink to handcuff this man to the bed because he was a shit guy from the trailer. That's what I get. And so but it's

still the joke. Right? Mhmm. So somebody comes into kink now or in ten years, and these are the messages they're seeing from the non kink world. You know, it's not surprising to me. If even then, even if when we say, oh, but look, we've had the the show bondage, bonding, the one on Netflix. Mhmm. I know there's another one. Is it out of South Korea? I still haven't watched it, but

I hear it's really good. You know, we have this media, but very little of it does anything to actually push back against the narrative that, you know, kink is something inherently bad. Mhmm. And then too many of us come into kink and then have to overcome those feelings of shame because of what we've internalized over all this time. Does that Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Look, this topic like, even though this is not our first time talking about, it's got me in a fucking choke hold.

Yeah. So now towards the end of this conversation, let's talk about and I'm air quoting this. I I put quotes around scare quotes around it in my notes. Air quotes, solutions to reducing shame. Okay? Across, like, shame about kink, shame about sex, shame in general, there were some commonalities of, like, here are some things that can help. Now again, nuance. Everybody's different. Not everything will work for everybody.

You know, sometimes there are things and there will absolutely be things that I didn't know to name in here that are solutions as well. Okay? So this was the thing I did and this is usually where I stop when I'm trying to overcome something. I know that's unhealthy, Which is identify where the the shame comes from to the best that you can. Mhmm. Sometimes it's obvious. Sometimes you're like, I was raised in church and I was told this is evil and I'm going to hell and that's I might not believe

that, but that's a feeling. Right? Or I was told I am bad, so therefore, I think I am bad or I thought I was bad. Right? Kink is, you know, inherently abusive. And so therefore, I think, like, I think sometimes identifying where it's coming from is easier than others. Personally, I would say first, identify that it is shame. Because my first thought when I was when I had the thought of, I kinda wish I could do that. I wish I could be that, you

know, brat like that. The first thing I felt was fear. And if I had stopped there and not gone any further, I wouldn't have hit on shame. I had to go, but why am I afraid? And questioning why I was afraid, I was able to go, because then I'm bad, then I'm wrong, and I'm not, and I know. Mhmm. But sometimes you the the first step really is just to figure out that this is shame that you're dealing with and not some other

emotion. Right. Right? The next and this hopefully, we can be a space for this. But to talk about your desires in emotionally safe spaces or with emotionally safe people. So in my case, I'm having the conversation with y'all because every thought I have is content. I'm so sorry. But I'm really having the conversation with JB because he is safe. And I'm I do feel like this is an emotionally safe space because the people who know who we

are can accept this conversation. It'll be the people who are just now coming across us that will have something stupid to say. But I'm not worried about them. Right? I consider this an emotionally safe space to have these conversations. If you can have those kinds of spaces, you can have those people in your life, that's invaluable to be able to kind of go, we've developed the trust, we've developed the connection. Mhmm. I know I can be this vulnerable

with you. Let me just because sometimes naming it is is more powerful than you realize. Right? To

just say it out loud. Yeah. Yeah. Whether it's just to say it out loud in general or what I have found to be true for myself is when you have somebody that whose judgment you trust, who, you know, affirms that you are fine, that you are not bad, or, you know, or says the thing that you didn't even know you needed to hear until you heard it, which tends to be, actually, no. That's that's not a bad thing or actually, you know, that's a good thing.

That's you were a good per whatever. Whatever validation might be helpful. And emotionally safe people can sometimes provide that for you. Here's the other one and this one is so for fucking kinksters because we're already doing it here. Whether you're listening to the podcast, you're doing it on your own, but you're listening with others. Whether you're watching on YouTube or the live stream, we are in community. Seek community to realize you're not alone. Every time somebody asks us,

I'm just figuring out I'm kinky. I feel very alone. I feel very weird. What do I do? There are many things we can tell you to do, but one of them is always go find others like you. Because you remember, one of the things one of the things you can, you know, about shame is, you know, shame is rooted in societal conditioning, what's normal and acceptable.

Reframe what's normal and acceptable. And if you surround yourself, online or in person, with other people who are kinky, online or in person, with other people who are kinky, it doesn't necessarily take that long for your brain to go, oh, this is normal. Because look, all of these other people are also you've normalized it for yourself. Might take a while. But that is a an option to fight back against shame, especially if we're talking specifically, I'm feeling shame as a kinkster. Right?

Thinking you're the only one is usually the first step towards a lot of really negative feelings and not getting anywhere positive in your kink life. It's it's yeah. I mean, a lot of the the fears people have is they think they're the only one who's ever wanted to, you know, smack somebody in the face consensually, or they've ever wanted to, like, tie somebody up, and they ever wanted to chase somebody through the woods. You know? If you're getting get consent, but you're not the only one.

And that's where community can help with that. And then okay. No. There's another one. It says learn to accept yourself for who you are and what you want. I think that's the hardest one. I was gonna say that that can be that can be a very tough Mhmm. Thing to do. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep. Because if shame is the messages you got from society and that's it Mhmm. Mostly it, that's tough to overcome. Right? It's it is

tough. If if the shame is but if the shame is, like, childhood trauma or trauma that wasn't childhood, but it was traumatic, I mean, we're talking about something deeper than, oh, I just thought all of these people were deviants in the bad way, and I've gotta over come that. Right? Mhmm. There is the but actually, I was made to be fearful for my life and or soul at a formative age, and that's been with me. And now I'm at the big age of 45. Right? Like,

yes. Learn to accept yourself. There's that's a good thing overall. It's a net good, but don't anybody think that's necessarily easy. I have been very comfortable being submissive all these fucking years, but I am not comfortable showing every inch of of my weirdest self. I would I want to be, but not there yet. Don't know if I'll get there. I'm not real worried about it. I'm doing okay. You know what I mean? So yes.

But also Yeah. And then the final one, which is because sometimes you can know that this is what you need to do, and that doesn't make it easy. Right? When necessary, if you have access, therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a big one across, like, all resources I looked at. It didn't matter if it's about sex or kink or whatever. Therapy. Now granted, was I on therapist websites? Yes. There's there's inherent bias there

that therapy is gonna help with everything. But there I mean, there is something to that for sure for sure. The thing I've learned, thank you, Internet, is that not all therapies are created equal. Not all therapists are. Like, the the big thing is you gotta find somebody you vibe with and who gets you and and who can, you know I like, it is not uncommon or wrong if you are within the LGBTQIA plus community to want a therapist who is

also within that community. It you know, a thing I see online a lot, which makes complete and total sense to me, black women who are like, I want a a black woman therapist because they're gonna understand my experience. I just want a black therapist because they're gonna understand the black experience in a way that a white person is not gonna. Right? So break that down a very small much smaller level. Wanting a kink aware therapist.

Right? Because then you're they they might not understand your specific kink, but you don't have to try to teach them about kink just to get the help you need. Right? But so that thing I've known. I've you know, the Internet taught me a lot, but the one that I've learned most recently is that not all therapeutic types are the same and not all are right for a person. So cognitive behavioral therapy is what I have

the most experience with. I think it's currently, at least, probably the most common, and it is helpful for many people, but not always and not you know, it's all individualized. Right? I don't remember what it stands for but I just learned about one called DBT. I cannot remember what the d stands for. And then, oh gosh. EDM? I did not expect to talk about different therapies. Therefore, I did not write them all

down. And this is the Internet, like, exposing me to information I did not have before. So I'm not confident. But, you know, those types of therapies, I don't think you start with. I think you start with cognitive behavioral therapy. You start with talk therapy, and then maybe you move to those other therapies. That's kind of how I've seen it positioned online. But that's a thing to consider as well. If you're thinking, well, I did therapy and

that didn't fucking help. Well, was it the therapist? Was it the type of therapy you were experiencing? What is it you know, it's not that therapy is, you know, bad. It's that maybe that was not the right person or the right type for you. And thank you, live chat. I love y'all. Is it dialectical behavior therapy? Let's go with DBT, and EMDR, eye movement desensitization and process reprocessing. Thank you, Enchanted Wings. I have seen that that is not one that is in my

memory. Thanks. And I've read a little bit about that particular type of therapy and how it can be very helpful for folks, especially who, are dealing with trauma in some way. My point is, because I am not a professional, y'all, my little four year bachelor of arts in psychology from twenty three years ago is doing a lot of heavy lifting over here, is that there's more than just one type of therapy. Yeah. Right? And there are plenty of therapists.

Not everybody like, for those of us who require that we need to use our insurance to for this to be possible, that can limit your scope. So that can it can be tough. The I haven't looked recently, but the last time I did a search for a KinkoWear therapist through the KinkoWear professional site linked in the places as a reminder, it continued to be true that, like, a few months ago.

The times I see the most people who are like, we can do a sliding scale, you know, we don't accept insurance, but we will work with you and your budget to the best that we can, has been on those folks who are LGBTQIA affirming, kink aware, ethical non monogamy aware and affirming. Like, though those folks, you know, it has been my experience. Not all of them, but many many more of them than, like, what I would consider, like, the vanillas.

Yeah. Are are willing to work with folks to the extent that they can so that it can be more accessible. Yeah. But shame's a tough one, y'all. Shame will fuck up your life. It will hold you back. It will stop you from doing shit and being who you are and being who you wanna be. It will lie to you. It will make you believe complete and utter bullshit lies about yourself.

You know? And there's more to what makes life tough than shame, but the the things I've overcome in places where I have overcome shame, in those places, my life has got is infinitely better. Not because anything materially got better necessarily, but because I was not weighed down with these lies I believed about myself. Makes sense. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

And because kink folks who figure out they are kinky tend to at some point in your kink journey have to face shame of some sort, not everybody, but many. You know, it's a thing you gotta you gotta be aware of because it you won't you won't name it as shame necessarily, but there'll be something that stops you from bratting, from feeling safe to brat as my example that started this whole fucking episode. And it won't feel like shame. It'll feel like fear. It'll feel like might feel like

anger. You might get angry about it and not know why you're angry. Something about it makes you angry. Sometimes you trace to that anger wreck and it's really shame. So and it yeah. It can it can sort of stunt your kink life and make it harder to live the kink life that you wanna live because you drag your weight down, drag down, held back by by shame. So it's important. We gotta talk about it. I did a lot of fucking talking now. You did. I didn't drink all my diet coke yet. So

What? Does that mean there's more talk left? Oh, there's always more talk left. Yeah. Look, thankfully, I've never lost my voice for any reason. I've come close where my I think when I had strep many years ago, didn't stop me. Throat was on fire, kept going. And several people in live chat, here on YouTube are talking about how either EMDR was really good for them and or DBT, was good for them. So and I'm, you know, glad to have, you know, learn about

that. It's it's a matter of trying what works for you because everybody will respond differently. Exactly. So Mhmm. Talk therapy being the most common one, and many people think talk therapy won't help. Well, first of all, until you try it, you don't know. But also, it's not the only game in town. There you might have options. So anything you would like to add? Now I peeled back the layers of our soul. No. You're like, nope. I'm covering my soul back up. Thank you very much.

Back down in those, deep depths. So before we get into the bonus section Uh-huh. Let's let's go back to the inciting incident. Okay. Because we were talking last night, and I knew this topic was coming. So I wonder what you think of this now. I was We were talking last night about the idea of me bratting. And I was like, wait, you don't like Not not like brats, but like within our dynamic, you want me to be a good girl. Well, yeah. You want me to be obedient. Mhmm. And you don't.

I have been accused of bratting when I was definitely not trying to brat. And when I was accused of it, it was not with a sadistic gleam in his eye. It was with, what the fuck are you doing over there? So I have read that as he does not necessarily want a brat in his dynamic. And yet It wasn't just not the right moment. And see see, that's the thing that so what I'm curious about is not the shame part, you know, not not everything we've discussed that was actually about the topic.

One, I know you wanna read that book now. I hope you find it in your Kindle. Yeah. But I think you'll like that series. I'm just saying. But two, what do you think about that personal revelation? In in one way, not surprising. Mhmm. I think it's I think it's something that's been there with you Mhmm. For a long time and it's just been sitting there under the surface just So far, I've never intentionally bratted.

But, like, recently, I have looked, like, immediately, like, within seconds, looked back and gone, I think that was a brat moment. The other night in bed, there was one. Which which moment are you thinking? Yeah. Which one which one are you thinking? And I I I can't remember the You should remember the vibe. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of pouting the other night because I was not ready for the to have to roll over and get to fucking sleep. I wanted to just look.

Okay. And you were doing everything in your power. There was legit pouting and whining. Yeah. I was living up to that baby girl title in the worst possible way. But see, here's the thing. And it only I only feel like this in this way at night when we're in bed and I'm comfy and the lights are dim and we're relaxed and we're, like, together without, like, the outside world

being there. Right? And, basically, I wish I could be I wanna be as close to JV as possible to the extent that if I could, I would climb inside his skin and just let him carry me around like a kangaroo. Okay? Like, how close can I physically get in your skin's not quite close enough? Okay? And I don't feel like that all the

time. I promise you during my waking, adulting hours, I'm like, actually, I'm gonna leave the room because I need space from all people including this man I love more than life myself. But at night when when the walls come down and I'm a little sleepy Eevee. Anything goes. Anything goes. And there are times I do fight the it's time to roll over now. Okay. We have talked about the different codes we have in our you know, people in long term relationships tend to pick up, like, codes that

you say to one another. It's shorthand for whatever. I made the joke that I because what JB says is, okay, baby girl. It's time to roll over and go to sleep. And so I started making the joke of, I'm gonna roll over like a rotisserie chicken so that I come back around. Right? I also complained that in the middle of the night, I roll like a rotisserie chicken because I'm constantly going back and forth. But I was teasing. I was like, okay, I'm a roll like a rotisserie chicken.

So because we both knew, so I would come back around. That I did that did not go over well. But now the code is rollover, but not like a rotisserie chicken. So or don't rotisserie chicken. Or I just go, I'm gonna rotisserie chicken. And we all know what that means now. And that is some of our inner code. Yeah. That's right up there with, you know, saying, okay. It's time to go to sleep. Why why do we have to go to sleep? Why doesn't sleep come to us? And then you thought you got around it

one night and you went, okay. We're gonna let sleep find us. And I'm like, no. We should we should be more polite and go to sleep. I thought the Smith's head was gonna sleep. Yeah. You see? You see? And there's something about the nighttime in bed after, like, 10:30 at night when

the baby girl comes out very strong. And it's fun, and I'm having fun, and it's playful well you know we we have we have a routine in this house and it usually early evening Lola gets her zoomies probably about half hour or so before bed the cats get their zoomies. Mhmm. And they're chasing each other. It it's like a freaking cartoon. You'll see Ella running with Onyx chasing her to the one side of the house, and then they turn around and Ella's chasing Onyx in the opposite direction.

But then after the cats have their zoomies, we go to bed, and and and this one right here, she gets zoomies. It's usually the first time I've had to actually fully relax and decompress in a day. And now there are days I'm in, like, not a great mood or I don't feel good, and I don't. And I'm not playful, and I'm just, like, I'm just, like, zonked out. Yeah. It's not happening. But days when I'm feeling good or, you know, it's just maybe been our first chance in the whole day to truly connect.

Shit. Yeah. So I still currently do not accept the label of brat. I am not actively trying to brat. But I've been walking a fine line and I know that. I know that. I can admit that is my point. So that's all I got. We can do a bonus section. Okay. So are we, are we good? That's not for me to decide. I don't know. Keep it kinky, y'all. And we'll see you next week. Daddy. You okay over there? A little bit clamped. Dottie. Yes. Maybe girl. Can we talk to the crackheads? Yes. Okay.

I don't really have anything. You thought you self tried, didn't you? I did. I did. I had we're just having thoughts earlier, like, oh, that be good. Bonus section conversation, and it's gone right now. What have you got? Well, I know I know me. Part of this, you know, I I kind of put a, small hold on the rescreening Of all our windows? Yeah. Mhmm. And, the other day, I with with the weather turning somewhat nicer, I dove into the yard work, which has been neglected.

Yes. And he mowed both the front and the back yard without letting me help. And I trimmed the hedges. And I treated all the beds with the, weed spray. And I was just not helping. And you were doing it all on your lonesome. And I don't really love that. And then he was shocked when he was exhausted and he didn't I wasn't shocked. I knew I knew it was gonna happen because I had worked all morning in the shop and then Yeah. That afternoon. And we had gone, what,

three weeks, maybe longer without mowing. Mowing. Yeah. It was getting hot. Yeah. Lola does not like it No. When she feels the grass on her nipples. And, you know, I've never felt the grass on my nipples, but I'm pretty sure Well, I I knew I wouldn't like it either. I I I knew the the breaking point was when I watched her one evening go behind the shed. Which has no grass. Yep. It was like I'm not squatting in this forest. It's backyard jungle. Right. Yeah. No. She that's

yeah. If we've let it go way too long, that's the sign. Yeah. I was I once watched Lola kinda stay on the back patio pad and just angle her butt off in the grass to pee. I was like, oh, honey. Yeah. Yeah. And the and I you know, I know we're not alone in this, but we have to start mowing weekly very early in a year, like Yeah. Before most people are done with their winter slash, like, really cold spring, like early spring.

It's time to mow everything. And then it goes into about October, and it's just like, goddamn. I just want a fucking break. So I get why we why that happens to us. Plus the we don't have a riding mower any longer. We just have a push mower. True. True. True. True. True. True. So Mhmm. Yep. But, yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm worded out. Mhmm. I'm actually I have no thoughts right now. Brain drain.

So I'm just I'm just grateful that the the the weather is starting to our our highs are, like, in the low eighties right now. Woke up the other day and it was what? 58 degrees? 58 degrees. That was a beautiful morning. We were pouring resin this morning, 09:00, and it I mean, it was just like, probably not maybe 70 degrees. It was perfect. There was not a drop of humidity The temperature was so nice. I was like, I can live out here. I can be out here now for the rest of my

life. Came in the house, like, we complained about at the top, and it's fucking hot in here. Fucking hot in here. And then she came out later, and she was shocked when I had cleaned both benches. Oh, yeah. It looked really nice. I was like, oh, wow. We can we can set stuff out on the vent the work table again. Yeah. Now there are certain things I like to keep. I don't like to put away because I use them literally every day, and JB

had been really efficient. But since this time, I was like, I have to go find these, though. Yeah. That was nice. It it made it it looked like we have all this room to work in now. It was a long time coming. Oh, what about your moment of finding Ella facing down a neighbor cat outside, not inside? Yeah. One at one point, I came in the house. I thought I had shut the door behind me. Apparently, it did not shut, and it was clacked just enough for Ella to, make her way to the front porch. Mhmm.

And, I came walking back through the house, saw the door clacking, and I was like, oh, fuck. I went to the window next door and looked out, and there's Ella. Her tail was like poof, and and she was squared off with with a neighbor's cat. Mhmm. Not the cat that every time she sees him walk across the front yard, she hisses and, like, has a love hate relationship with, but some other rando cat that she probably had never seen. Right. And, I opened the door, and I said, Ella.

And she she turned around, looked at me, and just trotted back in the house. But then poor JB was in a panic. He goes, where is Onyx? Yeah. Because the door been cracked and it we didn't you know, it had been several minutes and if Ella got out, did Onyx get out? We checked every hidey hole Onyx has. She wasn't there. We're walking through the house. I'm like, let me go check the 20 year old's bedroom. That door's open. Maybe she's in

there. I walked past. She's sitting on my my chair at the dining room table, just curled up. I was like, this bitch don't even know the door was open. And she would take a shot, not at freedom necessarily, but, like Yeah. All of the the available space for hunting There there there was there was one time the door from the laundry room going into the garage Right. Yes. Was left open. And and Onyx, you know, as as much a standoffish as she is to people Mhmm. She is the one who will

jump into something when she sees it. Gonna investigate. Yeah. Ellen never went out into the garage. No. But Onyx, she was everywhere. And when Onyx we got Onyx back in, her she's black cat. Her whole head is covered in cobwebs and dust. Dust. Yep. I'm like, where the hell did you get into? Yep. Yeah. Now my theory has always been that Ella knows which side her bread is buttered on. She's Yeah. She knows what that she's got regular

food in this house Yeah. And soft places to sit so that she's not gonna run away. She's mostly not usually interested in going out the door even when we open the door. Right. She's curious and comes up to the front door because she wants to know where the hell we've been mostly. Right. And did we bring her something to eat? And really, I've had the same kind of reaction. But so it does not surprise me that she came in so willingly

at all. Yeah. She was like, oh, that that's the comfortable place, and they will feed me. I'll go my ass back in there. But I do think that she might have been a little disappointed that we so there's big fluffy orange cat next door named Koi who still he loves our driveway, loves our front yard, will not come up to us. He is not that kinda cat. Beautiful, though. I think he stands outside our big window in the living room while Ella and Onyx are sitting on that window

sill. It's like one of those, like, wide like It's like a bay window. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I couldn't think of what it was called. I think he does it to antagonize Ella because every time Ella sees him, she puffs up. She gets so mad. And her meow, hiss, growl thing is one of pure annoyance. She so it's like a When when she does that, it's even enough that it make it gets Lola up Yeah. From wherever she is

to go investigate as well. Yes. So I always figured eventually she would calm down because Onyx has calmed down. Onyx doesn't fluff up anymore. Onyx doesn't try to attack the glass. None of that. But Ella and I'm like, well, I'm that's the enemies to lovers, like, book I wanna read. Yeah. Right? But, actually, I think what Ella would do, if given the chance, would be to attempt to kick Koi's ass. Koi would kick her

ass. He is brutal. Oh, yeah. He is he is a wealth he's an outdoor cat, but he is well fed, well taken care of. And yet, this little motherfucker will eat off of the plates of food that, one of our neighbors leaves out for the stray cats in our neighborhood. I have watched Koi, who is well fed Oh, yeah. Bully another cat off of the food that was left there, and I'm like

and Koi has no fucks to give. I could walk up and shoo him away, but he will immediately come back and then they'll he'll fight for dominance over that plot of land, and no other cat can come up Yeah. And eat. I'm like, you little shit. Yeah. So Anyway. Anyhoo, we should probably say goodbye. Yeah. We probably should. I gotta cook dinner in, like, not that long from now. Correct. We eat dinner very early around here, y'all. We do not have the temperament for eating

dinner late. We get very hangry in this house. We started early dinner times because the when the kids were in elementary school, we wanted them to get to bed early. Yeah. And so we when we never changed. Nobody is goes to bed as early as they did when we started a five to 05:30 dinner time, and we've never changed. No. I mean, we get I mean, there's no reason. There there's no reason for it anymore. No. We could we could do anything we wanted. Yeah. If it if I'm still cooking at 05:45,

I've got both of them. The 16 year old and the daddy dom Mom. What's happening? Circling Yep. Like fucking vultures. I'm like, y'all eat a potato chip. Okay? I'll get dinner on the table when I can't. So but, yeah, in thirty minutes at 05:00PM eastern, I have to start making dinner. So nobody gnaws their arm off in a house full of things. Because we never change. We're so habit and routine oriented. So I guess we should go so I can do that. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Hi, folks. We will be back

next week. Thanks for being here. Always a pleasure to hang out with y'all. Especially to the bitter end. We appreciate y'all. Okay. Yep. Yep. Bye. Bye.