Hi, Love Trapped listeners. It's Stephanie. It's been a whirlwind of a week. I just got back from south By Southwest Festival in Austin, Texas.
It was an.
Unbelievable experience where I was able to meet some of my favorite podcast hosts and even got to present an award at the iHeart Podcast Awards. I also got to do a sit down interview live from Austin with Clayton and my executive producer for Love Trapped, and the host of the hit true crime podcast Betrayal, Andrea Gunning. Also
fun fact about Betrayal. On Sunday, March twenty ninth, at ten pm Eastern, Betrayal is premiering on ABC Network, one of the first podcasts to become a primetime TV series. I'm so excited for all my colleagues associated with this show, so please be sure to check it out and don't forget new episodes of Love Trapped come out every Thursday. Thank you so much for your support. Now let's get into it. Here's my sit down conversation with Clayton and Andrea about how Love Trapped came to be. I hope
you enjoy it. So I've been with Glass podcasts since June of last year. And this is my first time meeting my executive producer for Love Trapped in person, Andrea Gunning. She is the host and producer of Betrayal, also another iHeart and Glass podcast. And we are at south By Southwest in Austin, Texas with iHeart and we've got Clayton Eckard here and we're going to talk a little bit about the making of Love Trapped.
Yeah, it's great. It's such a good show. Guys, you really knocked it out of the park.
Well, thank you obviously for providing us with a platform to do so. And you're you're quite an expert obviously and stories like this, I'm just curious. First question I want to start off with is does this impact you, like mentally to go through these things and you know what, how do you protect your own mental health?
It's a really good question that not a lot of people take the time to ask, So thank you for asking. That they do impact me. I deal with the different ways I try to really protect my physical health to keep my energy up.
I think I worked.
One of my first podcasts that I ever produced was Confronting Columbine and immediately after I went and.
Bought a dog. I was like, I need I need.
Like emotional support, like you need love and a safe space. But I've been doing it for so long now that i can kind of compartmentalize, but it does take a toll. Like this past season of the Trial, season five is really near and dear to my heart because it's about a really heavy topic that I've experienced in an adjacent way.
So I have a really great team. Stephanie's on it.
You're incredible, And I think it's just like relying on the team around you to pick up where you need to and take the time, go for walks, and just manage the material where you can.
That's all I can really say. I work out, I lift a lot of weights.
That also helps, definitely helps.
Yeah, there's so many sensitive topics in Love Trapped, and I think one of the things that I've realized in my research is that a lot of the people and the support system comes from people that have experienced something like Laura claims she has experienced. So I know that you and I have had conversations about that offline where it's like, these are really sensitive topics, how are we going to take care of these when we tell them to the audience, and also how are we going to
take care of ourselves? So that was a really great question.
Clayton, thank you, and I also yeah, I want to know. I mean why hop on this objective is super grateful to have you as a part of the team. I mean, but what was the draugs? I mean, you guys originally came to me and asked if this was something that I'd be comfortable sharing, and certainly your reputation and what I had seen, I'm like, okay, you know this is somebody that understands they share stories of similar nature. So
for me, I'm in good hands with expertise. But you know, like what what what drew you guys to reaching out?
So I can't speak for We have another company we work with. It's cry Baby, Danny and Love. It's a little inside baseball, But they were the ones that originally reached out to you, and I think that they just saw I think Love was googling a Laura Owens for something completely generate an.
Artist's completely different. So crazy how that comes together by the way that he was looking for a completely separate Laura Owens, right.
And so Lev works in development and he's constantly finding stories, and so he was online looking for something completely different stuffled upon your Laura Owens. And I think through that just once you get a sense of the story, you do a deep dive. And I think in episode one you even say to Stephanie, like, be careful because once you start like you can't you it's the.
Rabbit hole that you never returned from.
I'm there right now, right, I'm in it absolutely. And so when Danny and Lov brought this to Glass pot Pod, which is a division of Glass Entertainment Group, my colleague Ben and I were just, Oh, this feels really in line with a lot of the stuff that we do, specifically betrayal.
I don't like saying that, but my brand is like betrayal, lies, and deceit, and your story has a lot of that. But it's not just about the lies. It's about the aftermath and the emotional experience when you've been your your life has been hijacked by somebody and has altered your reality. And I think that Glass is a really good job of taking a complicated story and allowing the audience to
emotionally relate to it. So, yeah, they're the headlines are the obvious, like you know, the roller coaster of story points that your story has. But what really intrigued me was the emotional access that people could relate to from you. That's what's important to me in storytelling.
And how did it come about? You know, like Love finds this podcast or this idea for a podcast or a documentary and then what happens from there? Because I signed on for this project after it had already been sold to iHeart.
Yeah, I mean you worked on it sooner than I did.
Actually, Clayton, you guys did a reel for television, and so glass we simultaneously shop the audio rights and then the nonscript did right, and so Danny and Love were creating a real and then Ben and I saw it.
And were like, what is this story? Oh my god?
We got to send this to our partners and like shop it around. But the first, you know place we took it was iHeart and they just get it, like they understand everything about what betrayal brings to the table in terms of complicated storytelling and knows that we can deliver on how complicated your story is and so and they got it right away.
Yeah, yeah, And I think what's so interesting too, is that I had actually interviewed for a job with you in twenty twenty. Yes, you did, Oh my gosh, and my husband got the job over me. We accidentally applied for the same job and then I took another job that I really really loved and got laid off. And so when this came across my desk, when it was brought to me, like, I think the question for you is why me for this story?
Well, I think I should tell Clayton that we were she There was two finalists and it was Stephanie's husband and Stephanie and we just it was more of a male producing role, and so that's why her husband got the job.
But ever since we had interviewed you for that, it wasn't the right fit. It was more of a male POV.
So but ever since then we were like, what's Stephanie doing? And your husband's like she's busy, Like leave her alone. And so when this came up came around, I knew that you had interest in Bachelor Nation because you had interviewed for Jason Tarctic's show, right, So, like I.
Did an interview, I was like in in process of like trying to really work on that day show.
Was the story that I got.
I was like, oh, so she's clearly in Bachelor Nation. Yeah, maybe she'll have interest in working on your story. But I just through our conversations, I knew that you could.
Really dive into source material.
There is so much material to read and immerse yourself in, like legally, the legal documents thousands and thousands of pages.
And this is this is a high stake story.
We're dealing with someone that's really complicated, very litigious, so it takes someone that's going to be really careful.
And I just felt that you could do it. I felt like you were the right person for the job.
Thank you. And I have to say that I've learned so much from you from a storytelling perspective, and I couldn't have done this podcast without the Glass Podcast team. I mean, I'm hosting it and I'm the producer, but the people behind the scenes really audio editors, story editors, producers, like every single person you hear in the credits puts such a good touch on making this the final product.
The one thing I do want to ask Clayton, though, is we had that first conversation and you're like, you know you're going to be in over your head with this. When was the moment for you that you decided like, I'm going to trust Stephanie with this because you were you were a little guarded at first, Oh were you?
I was? Yeah. I actually wasn't enthusiat all about doing a podcast. I wanted it to be a documentary or be nothing, just because I wasn't really aware of how the podcast would actually turn out. And so I had them basically kind of proved to me that. I said, send me material, what have you done in the past, let me like actually see a proof of concept. And when I listened to one of the podcasts, within like a minute, I realized, I'm like, this is not your
typical podcast. This is a storytelling way of doing it. It's really intriguing and you know what, this actually could work, And so I then became very excited by that. But I'm still like, hey, look, we're pushing this as a documentary, right, like that's the first and foremost. It's just this podcast will be on the back end of it. Funny how that works out, thankfully. I just you know, said let's
to do it. But then when I met Stephanie, Yeah, I mean, look she's very sweet, she's nice, like she's she I mean, I've loved it a death and she's come on a team. But I thought, look, you don't know what you're getting into, Like there's just so much here, and unless you are willing to like fully immerse yourself,
you're going to miss out on details. You're not going to tell it correctly, and this is going to potentially put me at risk of like having a story told in an incorrect manner, which you've already had, which I've already had. You know, I've been very sensitive to that with previous shows where I'm not really happy with how things are portrayed because to me, they're not fully real
to what I experienced. And so this was another situation where I'm like, look, if I'm going to be vulnerable again and allow producers once again to tell my life story, I'm not doing this where it gets told incorrectly or altered in a way to just make it appear sexier at the expense of me. That was obviously the big hesitancy. So what really sold me on you was the amount of time and the genuine I could just feel your energy from the jump. I'm like, she's really like she
cares first and foremost. This isn't about her just nabbing a new story. This is really about her looking me in the eyes and being like, I really want to share your story and tell this, and I will put as much effort in as I can to make this in a way that you know that tells your story in the way that you want it to be told. And it was a good synergistic relationship because I told her I wanted to be told in the real way. I don't want this to be like everyone pat Clayton
on the back and you call them a superstar. I said, I want this to be shared as it is, like I'm not on a pedestal, like I'm just I'm in the middle somewhere. I'm not good, I'm not bad. I'm just in the middle like any other human.
I really respect that, and I think one of our core values, like last podcasts, is like the beautiful complexity that is the human experience. It is not a binary black and white thing, good and bad choices. There are gradients of decision making where you know there's accountability and culpability on different sides of the street.
And what I love about betrayal.
When I love about your show and just your story is you're okay with leaning into your vulnerabilities and the choices that you make. And I think that there's an emotional access there. We talk about that a lot of class podcasts about what's emotional access, Like the part of me is a part of you. Someone could hear your story and say I made a similar decision. I didn't meet all our owns, but I kind of walk similar steps.
And you can only do that by living in that gray, right, like, and that's the real reality.
It's not like the good and the bad. It's the middle.
Yeah, and for me too. I mean I also, as I realized when I decided to make this known to a larger audience, that I was receiving a lot of back on the backside of things in my DMS, you know, support from men that were saying, hey, look like, thank you so much for speaking up because I'm going through this. And then I was getting ten, twenty fifteen or fifty different messages of people saying that my brother went through this, or a friend went through this, or my significant other.
And you know, I have been grateful because I think victims should just be able to tell their story. Whatever victims look like, you know, whether your male, female, whatever, you know, your skin color doesn't matter. It's like, if you're the victim, you're the victim, and everyone deserves to
have their story be told. So for me, it seemed that I was able to, you know, start shining a light on hey, Like there's victims of all different shapes and sizes, and like, we just need to get this story out because yeah, I mean it, there's a lot of people that don't speak up because they're like, I'm not certain how it'll be received, and I hope that. I mean, what's been awesome about this podcast is I think it's it's encouraging a lot of people to speak
up because the reception is positive. Hey. And I also again I'm like, look, don't portray me as perfect. Portray me as human, because that's what's relatable and people can go, okay, like, look, I don't have to be a perfect human in order to be believed. I just have to be real and honest.
And let's talk about that for a second. In this story, the main victims are males, and there's a lot of collateral damage in Love Trapped, where it's you know, family members, attorneys, the victims run deep in my opinion on this, but the main victims are male. In Betrayal, we hear a lot of female victims and a few males. So what was it like for you to kind of flip the script and executive a story that is kind of different, same but different than Betrayal?
It is different.
I mean, we're always looking for male pov because, you know, we just have our community is primarily female on Betrayal, and the people that come forward who want to share their story are mostly women, and so we'll take whenever we can. If there's a guy that wants to share their story, we're like absolutely, because it just helps dismantle shame. And I think for men in particular, that's the biggest hurdle.
So when they hear other men come out, you know, talk about their story, share what they went through, it helps another man on the other side of just listening and say, Okay, maybe I can talk about it. Maybe not on a worldwide, global platform, but I can share it with a friend. And so that's why I think
it's really important for diversity of voices. And I would love to have more men on the show and that's why I think you are so valued Ball is because you're like, it's not often where a man can come forward and say, you know, all this happened to me because because of shame, I think, and.
The emotional vulnerability of Clayton throughout this entire process has been something that I've really admired. Like from the very beginning, you haven't held anything back, whether it's anger, sadness, excitement sometimes about what's going on with the case. So I just want to tell you thank you for that, because that's what's made this story as great as it is.
Yeah, well, I mean for me, I thought, you know, as I reflect upon any time that I share something, it's if I'm feeling something, then somebody else, if they go through something similar, likely has these wave of emotions. And yeah, there's obviously the pressure sometimes that falls on my shoulders where I say, hey, it's been three years. I was it was okay for me to have anger, you know on year one, but by year three I should be able to be okay with it and I
should be the bigger person. But then I realized, I'm like, that's just not how healing occurs. It's not a linear thing. You know, you might feel like you're over it and then some old feelings come back. And for me, I feel it's a responsibility to showcase that because I'm not trying to come across as a perfect human. I think if I did that it would just other people then might listen in and go, oh, I guess I'm not hanging this correctly. So I'm not going to be able
to get through this. It's like, no, if I share that I'm still having vulnerable moments and I thought I was past things that I'm not and I'm going back, It's like it's you're not really going backwards. This is just being human, Like, this is how things naturally progress. So I've let that go where I'm like, Clayton, you don't have to seem like you're now a sudden three years later, like you've gotten to this level of maturity. You know, you can show the raw emotions that still exist.
If they exist, then show them. If they don't exist, don't show them. But like, just give whatever it was within you, like, put that out there because that's going to be relatable. It's a lot of people they're going to say, Okay, like, look, he still deals with this, So they'll give themselves grace because they'll say, hey, I'm three years into my situation. I still have anger, but so does he. So this must be normal.
And I think it's okay for you to still have anger because this story is still ongoing. It's not completely closed yet.
I look, I think anger is there's there's certainly like I mean, there's a purpose for it. I don't think we're supposed to eradicate anger from our lives. I mean, it's it's important someone breaks into your house. You want to have anger kick in, right, You need a quick emotion to like go fight back and so and for me, same thing if somebody harms you, you know, not just sometimes turning the other cheek, but sometimes you have to
fight fire with fire. And that was the realization that I quickly picked up on with Laura, was like, it's a fire with fire scenario. So I need to allow like if she's going to fight with hatred in her heart, I need to fight with anger in mine, because like that's the only way that sometimes you have to get to that point where it's the only way that you
can you can battle back and win the battle. So it's picking and choosing those times, but I think anger has a night of connotation, and I'm trying to show people that there's a place for it where it's actually it's useful.
And Andrea, let me ask you this. With a lot of the betrayal stories, there's a conclusion, you know, like there is a court case that has been adjudicated, and how have the victims on betrayal handled when it's finally done in the court system and they have to move on with their lives after that.
This may not be the answer you want to hear, but oftentimes it's a whole new.
Experience.
Like there's sometimes a conditional way of thinking when you're in.
Like a trauma mode.
A lot of times when you're dealing with the criminal justice system, you're in survival mode and you are living in.
Existing and conditional thinking.
If I just get here to this court date, this hearing, I'm just moving forward. I'm putting one foot in front of the other. And I totally understand that. And so when you get to a sentencing hearing or a plea deal and you think it's an ending, you realize that actually on the other side of it is a whole new journey of dealing with whatever that decision is, whatever the verdict is, whatever the sentencing is, and it's a whole new wound you've just opened. And so for me
a lot of my storytellers, it's that unpredictable. It's a different stage and a whole different set of grief. Like you're just existing and dealing with one aspect and then you can actually then mourn and grieve the actual thing that you experienced on the other side of it. So that could I don't know what will happen, but it's just that's oftentimes what I find with the people I work with. There's a whole other set when there's a conclusion, yeah, which.
Makes sense, and I can attest to that. I mean, you think about what reality might be, but of course, like when you go to these court hearings and there's an outcome presented, you know, that becomes your reality, and that becomes the thing that you then react to because prior to that point, you say, it could be this, it could be this, it could be this, So you're prepping your emotions for what might be. But really, I mean that's almost in a way wasted energy because it's
not actuality. I mean, that's where yes, with this Cored case coming up, I've obviously thought about what could occur, but ultimately, like a wound or you know, something will open up once the facts are all laid out there and it's like, here is the outcome, this is where we're headed. Now, now I have to respond to that path that we're on, because that's the path we're walking down.
A lot of what we deal with on betrayal is, you know, you have the personal interpersonal betrayal, but then there's that secondary betrayal that exists within institutions, and in a lot of my cases, it's with the criminal justice system and the sentencing.
Not really matching the crime.
Yeah, and knowing like the process comcutters. The people on the legal teams with the best of intentions but very little resources can't really accomplish. Whether it's because of the laws in certain states or just because of the amount
of case slow that they have. There is just this injustice between someone's life being fundamentally altered by this person versus you know, eighteen months in jail or no jail time and just probation, and that is a whole other level of betrayal and emotional like having to reconcile that we often deal with just a glass and like the stories that.
We pick, that's what's really fascinating to me. And what is justice and how do you relate to it? And it's hard to confront a system that you're supposed to believe in and that also fail you.
Yeah, Andrea, with all of the stories that you've covered in Betrayal, after these have been adjudicated, like we just talked about, is there a happy.
Ending for people?
At the end of our Betrayal weekly we ask everyone, why do you want to share your story? We used to end our shows with like where people are now? And oftentimes we would wrap up the episode by saying, you know, this person can trust again and they've met, they're in a relationship, or they got married, And we used to get emails that said, stop ending your episodes with relationship because these people don't need another person to
be fulfilled. So in a way, we started rewriting the way that we would end our weekly episodes to be like, actually, where is that person today? Like what is their purpose? How are they finding life? And really defining you know, what their life looks like today as opposed to who they are in relationship with another person. The limited run series, we really spend like where they're at in their journey
and what they're hoping for in the future. So for me, I don't believe in conditional thinking, Like I don't believe in like where is my ending. I just think it's a constant pursuit of where am I going to feel fulfilled? And that feels so ongoing, which is hard when you work in an industry that wants a book end.
But for me, again, we talk about the complexity of being human, but that's reality. Yeah, yeah, you know.
Yeah, I mean I think you said that perfectly. I know we all want a happy endings that makes us feel good. But I believe, like life, it's a journey and it's a process, and you know, when you go through situations like this, I believe that those happier endings do occur. But maybe by the time you follow up, there's still deep within their healing journey. You know, maybe they've closed that chapter but it opened up another five.
I mean, that's what I've found as I went on my journey towards you know, healing from my past and going through things like this, is like you might heal from one thing and then you open up five more from the past, just because, like a lot of things, when we were younger, we we didn't have the emotional wherewithal to unpack it. So as you go deeper down this the into your past, you start connecting dots and then it just opens up five more doors.
Yeah, and I think I can say when I work on a limited run series, we'll dedicate you know, nine months to a year, sometimes two years working with one storyteller on betrayal, and then we'll not see them for some time, and then we'll go out and shoot the TV show and it all get to be.
With them again.
And then for two other families, like we did a cruise,
like another like a year later. So I saw them at very different stages over the course of two three years, and it's such an evolving experience, and you know, different times the year bring up really different emotions, and so I just look at them as like fully formed humans and they're just getting through their life and their day and so for me, I just see them in their own sequence of life as opposed to you know, me being comfortable with whether okay, that's on them, you know
what I mean, Like that's I have to be okay with knowing that they're just living their life, you know.
And let me ask you this, Clayton, what has been the most rewarding part of this for you? And also what do you hope comes out of this?
I believe for me, I mean, the most rewarding aspect has been the collective healing that I've seen, for one to be able to see the other victims and see hope come back within their bodies and for them to say, hey, look, actually everything after all this time, I actually might be able to close a chapter on this because it'll be
over as opposed to her continually antagonizing us. But then I've also seen healing from a greater level of just the entire community and people coming together with shared experiences of trauma and being able to find their tribe. That's been the most rewarding aspect of all of this. And so for for what I hope for like this, what to come from this is just a continuance of that, you know, I mean, selfishly, sure, anything that can can help me out in my life, you know, through more exposure,
I'll take. But it's not the expectation that this launches me into another realm of relevancy or whatever it's more. Hey, this has been a really great display of community involvement and what it can do. So I hope that this forever ties people together and new friendships were made. And like, if this carries on and it all splits up, we all go our separate ways, but a few of us have a couple of new friends along the way that we can lean on when we go through hardships in
the future. Like, that's what I would hope for, is just that that's that's that's what occurs from all of this.
And I think the online community has been such an incredible part of this entire story. And as we're still in the trenches of production of Love Trapped, Andrea, I want to ask you throughout this entire experience, from development to now to hearing the episodes that have come out, to knowing what's coming because we obviously talk about them behind the scenes, Like what has been the most surprising part of this entire story for you?
The amount of people that have come to support you, that I've rallied behind you. It's an incredible thing to witness and bear witness too, Like why respectfully, Like if I were in your position, like why is everyone championing me?
Like?
Why me? Why this story?
And when you really sit and think about it and sit with it, I think it's because not only is it just people who are fighting for truth and like realness in a really difficult time culturally and our society, but also she hits on really delicate things that a lot of women deal with.
Very deep inside.
We're talking about really tough subject matter like rape, pregnancy, big decisions around pregnancy, and so there are a lot of women that have walked those shoes, and men like and you know, that have lived it, that have made the choices that she has claimed to make and hear her set of facts and are like, whoa, that is
so not right. And so when you kind of go through things that she's claiming she's gone through, it is so real and so raw that you feel like no other option but to rally for the truth because we're talking about really big subjects. I hope I'm making sense, but that's why I think that was what was most surprising for me is to see how what she's doing, what she's putting out there, people on such an visceral level are like, that's not okay.
Yeah, because it's so many things. It's not just one thing like you said, it's rape, it's pregnancy, it's pregnancy loss, it's all of these things, all these sensitive things that happen to women.
Right So, whether or not you've been a victim of sexual assault, whether or not that you've decided listen, maybe right now it's not the right time for me to have this child for whatever reason, whether you've had a miscarriage, these are all very intense emotional experiences to go through alone, like as because you're dealing with something that involves your body and it's so complicated. So someone someone weaponizes those things. It's really really hard. So I to watch that community
like you get it. You're like, okay, this is like you've got the internet detectives, like this is crazy.
They're helping the Bachelor. But when you really sit with the reality of why they're doing it, it is really true and really honest.
And like deeply feminist, which is why I lom it.
Well, it needs to be bigger than me. It is bigger than me. You know. I've even seen people say we should change the name. I'm like, and I'm all, I'm fine with that, you know, because I think if you just kept it at me, it couldn't reach the audience that it has. It couldn't help out more than it'd be like, oh well, the center focus is just on him. It's like no, No, Let's have healing far greater than just me, you know, Let's build a community far wider. I think what's like to what you just said?
You know, the shock is that you'd think that like good is what unites people. But truly, what it was is all of Laura's lies of what she claims she went through that she never did. It's evil united everybody, and that's what's This is what you what you're seeing is true evil united a large group of people. And had she not made those claims, I mean, I don't think you'd have the level of support and the collective group that you have.
Yeah, I agree, And it's obvious that you were, you know, the Former Bachelor. I think there's a couple of episodes where we're having conversations about something and I'm like, I cannot believe that this is my job and this is what I'm talking to the former Bachelor about because it's honestly that wild. But when we brought the podcast to you. What was it like for you to see this team of producers, this production and be able to trust them. Yeah, trust us, I guess with your story.
Yeah, I mean, look, I have trust issues with entertainment
groups because I've it's a whole conglomerate of people. And you know, I've also realized for the longest I said, you know, I don't trust producers, but really I was putting all of that weight on their shoulders because the further that I got into the mix and understaw all the players in the game, I realized, you know, the editors are the ones that really are are just as equally at fault, at least when it comes to if I'm placing fault on people that are causing me to
lack trust. And so, you know, even though we had a strong connection right away and I trusted you, I was still like, look, I'm fearful of the editors because they are behind the scenes. I'm not talking with them,
so they're not getting to know me. So all they get is they get material fed to them and they go, well, this is what we have, and we can take this in this direction or this direction or that direction, and so even though I was able to lower my guard with you, it wasn't until the first episode came out that I was able to actually fully lower my guard because it was all right, here we go again. I'm going to press play and there's no going back. So when I press play, it doesn't matter if I don't
like this. By the end of this podcast, I will understand what narrative that their space and is it something that is aligned with me or is it not, because it doesn't really matter at this point. If it's not aligned with me, I can't press the rewind button. It's out there and this is the way they're that they're taking it. And I've already signed the documents, so you know, that's when you write. When you sign on the dotted line,
they tell you have nothing to worry about. You know, we're going to tell you, tell your story in the way that you want to be told, and if you're a good person, that's the way that you'll be perceived. I was told that verbatim, and then you know, I watched my show air on The Bachelor, and you know how talk about really messing me up psychologically because I went back to that moment I watched The Bachelor, and I said, but wait, they said, I if I was
a good person, that's the way I'll be perceived. So am I not a good person? You know that That's what I had to fight with, and it really, you know, it really talk about some of that anger. You know, I have harbored a lot of anger towards that individual because I'm like, Woul, did you lie to me? Or maybe I'm I'm a monster and I don't even realize it.
I lied to myself. So it's it's it's hard. And even though you were incredible from the jump until I press play on episode one, I was really just vulnerable and thought, I'm honestly, this could be round three or around at this point round four of you know, of putting my story out there, and it could be told in the wrong way.
And I want you to know from my perspective. And Drake and Nintesta, she really cared like she was really like and you are you continued to be and you never stop. But she always was keeping you in mind. And there was this level of also keeping Laura in mind too, And in certain ways, it's really hard when you're dealing with a lot of flies but we do consider the complexity of her stories too, of like, could she go back to plan parenthood twice because she wasn't
ready the first time? Yeah, the reality is she could because that's a scary experience.
So it's like a delicate balance of being fair but also just telling reality. And throughout the whole time, you were just trying to do right by the story. And you're the kind of person of like, the truth is the truth, and so it was not hard.
Yeah, I mean because also too, I'm glad you brought it up. Look like, beneath the anger or beyond the anger, Laura's still a human and I think, you know, it's not for me. It's not about trying to raise me up and lift me up and then you know, push her further down. I really want her to heal. I want her to see a brighter day. And so you know, it's it's it's it's uncovering and sharing the story and hopefully you know, being able to find resolution across the board.
You know, I would love to be able to see her, be able to have her moment where she something strikes a nerve or opens up her mind and goes wait, hold on, like something's clearly off here by way of numbers, the community that has has formed against me. I mean, maybe I'm in the wrong here, maybe I've been lied to, maybe I've had wrong the wrong people in my corner. So again, there's a complexity and and we're not here to, you know, say here's the good and here's the bad,
as most most TV shows do. There's it's just good bad, you know, happy, sad, and it's like no, like, this is about the complexity of the human life and sharing stories but also being mindful that, like everyone involved in this is still human, Like, how do we produce an outcome that is favorable to all long term because it's not We're not trying to drive someone further down the hole.
It was really Beautify said yeah, because I don't think we've talked about that, but I do feel like that was always something that we internally as when we're voicing, and something that I was saying in episode eight of like Okay, well as someone that had walked in similar shoes,
I've made these decisions, let's be fair to it. And it's hard when you know that they're a lie, but knowing that it could it's still in a different and not shame a woman for going back a second time and that their reality is real.
So it was a hard it's a hard show. You guys have done an incredible job.
Thank you.
Thank you really balancing all of the lies in reality so once Yeah.
Thank you so much for joining us, Andrea, this has been such a wonderful conversation and of course thanks to you Clayton. It's been really fun being at south By Southwest with iHeart with you guys this weekend. So, Andrea, tell us where we can find Betrayal. Yeah, you can get it on the iHeartRadio app. You can also subscribe through Apple True Crime Plus. You can get it through the Apple podcast or wherever you got your podcasts.