Erotic massage with Joseph Kramer

Welcome to the Love, Sex and Intimacy podcast for women who want to experience intimate relationships and sex that are pleasurable and passionate, happy, thriving and deeply fulfilling. With my very special guest experts guiding lights and pioneers in their specialist areas, we'll be breaking down the myths, exploring the difficult stuff, the good stuff, and seeing what's possible for love, sex, and intimacy at this time of rapid change.

In these candid and intimate conversations, I'll be bringing you the best of sex and relationship education full of practical ways to support and inspire change in your intimate life. I'm your host, Sarah Rosebright. Whether you're curious about what's possible or you're already committed to exploring, I'm so happy you are here. Welcome to this episode on erotic massage which is one of my absolute favorite practices.

I came across this practice many years ago through the work of Joseph Kramer, who's my guest today. And Joseph is a true pioneer in the field of sexology, as you will see when I introduce him shortly. Joseph talks about erotic massage what it is, how to get started even if you don't feel confident in giving massage at all. He shares so many ideas and tips and wisdom on that.

He shares the most profound practice that he has discovered in his 40 odd years of exploring massage. Profound, but also super, super simple. and so much more i really hope you enjoy this conversation as much as i did welcome to today's episode and I am very excited to be joined today by Joseph Kramer. Welcome. Thank you, Sarah. I am very glad to be here. The Atlantic, speaking with you. That's amazing. It still amazes me. So I'd love to introduce you with your bio because...

And also, you know, I came across your work, I was working this out over a decade ago. And I remember, you know, when I discovered the work that you were doing with your videos, I mean, it just blew my mind at the time. So I'll ask you to talk about some of that in a moment. But just to read your bio. So Joseph Kramer, PhD, is an American. sexologist, filmmaker and teacher of somatic sex education.

founder of the Body Electric School of Massage and the professional field of sexological bodywork, and you've created more than 100 films that artfully teach erotic touch. Wow. That is me. Thank you. So I'd love to find out. how you got into this work first of all because I'm guessing you know this this isn't something that you were doing you know just love to hear some of your story about how you found this body of work

You know, I was at 14 years old, I started jogging and jogging was not a big deal then. This is we're talking 60 plus years ago. But I would jog slowly. And then there was cross-country running in secondary school. But I still wasn't a fast runner. I was a slow runner. But I was long distance, meaning I would run an hour or an hour and or more. And I didn't realize at the time what was happening. But every day I ran and it got so.

that if I went a day without running, I would feel it. And sometimes at night, before going to sleep, I would go out, run, and come back in cold and in warm. And this... warm. This was really a grounding in my body in a way that is surprising to me. And then in graduate school, I got a massage, my first massage, believe it or not. And this was when I was in my early 20s and I was running. So I was in my body, but I got a massage and I go, oh.

I can't believe this. I remember the webbing between my toes. And I go, I didn't even know I had webbing. And I was getting touched there and touched. it was quite amazing it was an esalen massage we called it then which was just about bringing awareness to the body and i go i want more of this and i was a poor student and i thought I learned that there was a massage school nearby, and I decided I would go to massage school because it was only $300 at that time for the certification.

but I would get like 100 hours of massage giving and receiving in this training. So I went to massage school and I got a lot of massage. And after I graduated, I thought, well, I might as well. I like this. I'll try this out. So I started in as a masseur, as a massage therapist. And this massage therapy wasn't very prevalent at this time.

Even Northern California, where I live, which is where a lot of different bodywork therapy started. But along with the running, massage was like a waking up of parts of my body. And it was feeling my body. And looking back on it, what I think is most important about waking up the body is making good decisions. So my running and my...

massage, giving and receiving massage, I started making good decisions. And one of my thoughts after just about three or four years is I had taught high school for years. And I said,

I think I want to run a massage school. So I started a massage school in the early 1980s. Because I like the quietness of Asajj. It wasn't, there wasn't even as much interaction of how is this and. what would make this better and things like this. That came later. It was more of this quiet esalen and quiet acupressure and shiatsu. And so I started this massage school.

And I really liked it. And then AIDS hit. And the area where I live in Northern California is one of the places on the planet where it first hit big.

gay men as a gay man i gay identified man a queer man i all kinds of my friends were dying and i was running a massage school and i thought i know a way of having sex that is not dangerous and it is touch it's erotic touch and so i had to develop some i thought okay i'll teach in my school an erotic massage class for gay men who wish to learn ways of being with with other men in a safe way and i had no intention of being a sex teacher i had no interest really

I had an interest in sex, but not as professionally. But I started teaching erotic massage and I was surprised at the effects. uh that i saw the very effects that this had on individuals this was just in classes that i did and i did one-on-one sessions of erotic massage and i was amazed at As I said, many people were making good decisions afterwards. So when they were in their body, they had access to some wisdom.

And I wasn't even clear about this at the time. I just knew people said, wow, I got a new job since I last saw you. I just didn't like my old job or I broke up with a partner or, you know, they were feeling. I was surprised at the effects and then other people, the other big thing was people telling me, you know, after your session, I wasn't clear where my body ended and where. I felt bigger. I just felt like I was spread out, like I was connected to the universe or some mystical things.

And the third thing that happened quite a bit was people had religious experiences or spiritual experiences. And I come from a very Catholic background, Roman Catholic. But some people actually said, I saw Jesus while I'm giving them a massage, an erotic massage even. And I thought, what's going on here? Because there was no speaking of spirituality or of clear decision making.

or embodiment. I didn't have the language at the time. This is 40 years ago. But something powerful was happening. So I just kept paying attention and expanding. teaching of erotic touch and i started of course going beyond just gay men for safe sex and um my one of my first female loves was Annie Sprinkle and together we taught erotic massage for men and women gay and straight and in those days

There wasn't as much non-binary, but we've evolved into non-binary. On my websites, I have videos from Barbara Corrales and others doing non-binary massage. So that's... but it was massage and and run bodywork and running were awakening up of i think of a type of wisdom that fed me and i think i'm sitting here talking to you Because of that, that wisdom has given me insight and perspective that I don't think I would have without the daily running and without the...

you know, without the body work. And I found, by the way, giving body work, as you're probably well aware of, is just as embodying and waking up as receiving it. So that's kind of how I got into this profession. Then Annie, by the way, Annie said around 2000, she said, let's. let's get his and her phds in sexuality and i go she says let's do it together i don't want to do this alone and i was not interested in a phd but we went and got a phd in human sexuality

And it was the most unembodied three years of my life. It was here I've been involved with bodies and involved with breathing and involved with feeling and involved with arousal. uh teaching all of this and then i studied academically sex and annie it was unembodied it was boring but i do have a phd i have to say so in human sexuality

So that was not the shortest, but not the longest version of how I got here. No, thank you for sharing. And I think it's so lovely to so powerful to hear stories of how this your body of works emerged just from you paying attention and following those curiosities so

For people listening, I would love you to share what erotic massage means to you, because I'm guessing people might be listening and imagining what it is. So maybe you could paint a picture about that for us. Well, as I mentioned, I started out running a massage school. So massage and touch, I put great value on. And erotic massage is, first of all, a massage. It involves touch. And the way I taught this and the way I offer this, there almost always was a full body massage.

Swedish or just oil massage before arousal comes in to the massage. And this was because When people come to a massage, they carry all their day, the week, their stress, their tension. And part of the beauty is to relax and let go of all of that and let your body wake up. and then invite in arousal. So the first part was always the massage part. And I'm okay with people who say, well, maybe not erotic massage, but I'd really like a massage today. And when my clients are...

Even in classes, people go, well, I don't think I'm ready for the erotic, but I really want the touch. Good. So that's the first thing. It's touch. And it's... It's touch with attention. Just touching. There's. I was in a store yesterday and there was one of these big chairs that had all kinds of things inside of it that rubbed your body and bounced you around and all this. And I thought.

Yes, that jiggles the body, and I'm sure it has some effect, but I also want the attention of somebody touching me. I don't just want to be jiggled by a chair, by the mechanics. So it is a connection. Someone's attention is on your physical self. And it is why it's really different from... A lot of people's experience of sex is it is it separates giving and receiving. And this is very powerful. And this is challenging to some people.

One person just receives. And it might be a half hour or an hour. You're just going to receive. And the other person gives. And then in partners, you can switch.

So there's a tension and it is you're just receiving or you're just giving. Then there's arousal. And I always like to ask the person, so how do you like to be aroused? What do you want before the massage? I even ask people to show me a little bit, maybe how they touch themselves when they masturbate. And I know they, oh, you really like that. Okay. And do you like, and my goal, my intention is.

Just to feel good. This is to feel good. I'm not getting you off. I'm not taking you any particular place like the orgasm or release. That's there. But this is just to feel and to feel arousal. So I make it clear in my work that it's about arousal. And in all my work with gay men, I advertised.

there was no ejaculation in the massage that i taught and you would think men would go no ejaculation i don't want to take that class but people flocked to the class and at the end i just had quiet there was arousal and then a quieting down or a thing that i developed called the big draw that became very popular and spread to all kinds of massage teachers around the world but um

So then it was just playing with arousal and attention. And I think... there's the first stirrings of arousal when you touch the genitals or even when you touch the body notice that and i like to have people after those first stirrings i like to say there's Let's suppose there's three levels of arousal. There's a low level of arousal, a significant level of arousal, and a high level of arousal.

And you tell me where you'd like to go before getting to release or orgasm or multiple orgasms or all that. And I've found most people at the beginning go, I want to go to high arousal. men and women, especially when they're comfortable, and in between, and non-binary. have found that after a while, most people like a significant level of arousal, but not the upper echelands of arousal. That's where the most enjoyment.

can be over time and comfort and ah, I'm noticing this, where there's an ability to notice the body and play to be, there's a playfulness. But for me, there's always communication. How is this? Would you like to quiet down a little bit in your arousal? Would you like to raise your arousal up? And I often say, you know, I like your...

your participation or like your hands involved here. Why should I be the only person doing this? You know, so it's there's a playfulness and there is communication about. the levels of arousal. And then the ultimate for me is, and for the person I'm touching is to enjoy it, to savor it. So savoring of this experience.

What's, what's, so do you savor these beginnings of arousal? Do you savor, here's a low level of arousal. Is this okay? Okay. Let's raise this up a little bit. Let's go a little higher. Let's go a little lower. So I'm working and touching erectile tissue. in a manner that that person has agreed to and said, okay, and I'm trying out. And it can be a variety of ways. There's a multitude of ways to touch the genitals. But it's just to activate arousal and for the purpose of enjoying.

beautiful and thank you and i love what you shared that um people are so familiar you know with the hot levels of arousal but when they start to play in these they find that the warm levels are where they love to hang out more but we're just not familiar with those are we in our culture when it comes to sex there was a man who came to me recently well not recently like before covid

And he said, I have trouble with early ejaculation. And certainly this is one of the major difficulties that men have. And this is not... noticing what's going on till it's too late, till they're ejaculating, their levels of arousal. So we worked on this. And we went on medium levels of arousal and high and low. And he was okay with this. But he called me.

on the phone after several sessions, and he had never called me. He would always set things up online. He called me on the phone and said, moderate. The middle level of arousal is amazing. And I said, what? And he says, I can play in that forever. And it's satisfying. He said, I'm going to write a book on it and I'm going to do this and that. And so he found a place where he had no trouble with.

this early premature ejaculation whatever and it was in this middle level of arousal but he never thought that this would be satisfactory you have to get right up at the top before orgasm or release Yes. So, but everyone is different. So people's sexuality is different and different people appreciate different things.

i'm laughing because i remember watching this movie on on kinsey the great researcher and kinsey had a hundred thousand flies little flies that he was a botanist he was a entomologist and he had these flies and people say you you have all these different ones and he says they're all different and he says i found the same thing with sexuality people are all different and so what i'm saying about this man may not work for somebody else but um but

it's to follow your own path and see what works for you and for him he found it and it wasn't with me he was at home and he never stopped at the moderate comfortable level he'd always gone up to the top and tried to edge at the top. And he was like, oh yeah, this is a nice place to try. And he enjoyed it. And he goes, I'm staying here for a while. I'm playing with this.

Beautiful. So for people listening, so whether they'd love to practice this and also, you know, I suspect a lot of people listening may not feel confident in massage. How might couples, lovers, start to explore this? So the first... So I've been thinking about this too, because... When my relatives, a niece was recently married and a nephew was recently married, and I give...

As a gift, wedding gift, I don't give a microwave. I give a massage table to these folks. And massage tables now are so inexpensive. for the same high quality that I paid $600 for is $150 on Amazon and elsewhere, really quality tables. The first thing is... I think I'm jumping ahead, but I think a table is important because if you're not experienced and most people aren't experienced and I'm not experienced in this way.

it really takes a toll on the body trying to give a massage on the bed or on the floor. When you're standing next to a table, it's so much easier. And that's the first thing. People aren't going to do something again and again if they feel bad afterwards. And I think this is one of the main reasons couples don't do massage, more massage, because, oh, my back was sore after that.

you know giving that massage I was happy doing it but I feel I don't feel good now so the first thing is a massage table I think is important and people go well that's a big a big commitment but you can also sit at a massage table also and work on the table it goes it has different heights so that's my that's the first thing and i have stopped I've stopped giving massage, erotic massage in the way that I was just describing. I now give five-minute sessions. And by five-minute sessions, I mean...

that I asked the person, show me a stroke or a way of touching yourself that you like. Okay. I'm going to do the same stroke without change, without for five minutes. And then we're going to pause and see what that was like. And I invite them to breathe some breath during these five minutes. but I do the exact same stroke for five minutes. And this allows me to notice what's going on in their body. It allows me to learn.

I'm very subtly, I'm not trying to change my touch, but I'm noticing changes in their body. And I recommend couples do this, that they do the same stroke, even if it's not genital. if it's a stroke on the shoulder, to do the same thing exactly with your hands for five minutes and then pause and say, what are you feeling now? And let the person notice.

Then I go, okay, let's continue on. What other stroke would you like or would you like me to suggest a stroke? And then five more minutes. And I would do, I do a whole hour.

of this. So 10 different strokes. And sometimes people will say, will you do that? They say, will you do that same stroke again? I would like more of that. And it's not because... their arousal slowly goes up but it's with this break we're not really going toward we're not chasing orgasms here we're just noticing arousal in different ways And I find the five minutes of the same stroke. If somebody, if a partner, if you know five strokes that your partner likes.

And you can do this, you can do it at different speeds, but you do it the same speed for five minutes and you pay attention. They're paying attention. it can be quite a remarkable experience. But the other thing that's happening is you're learning massage by just...

doing five minutes of one stroke, you won't forget that stroke. You've now got that one down. You try it again next time you're together. Whereas if you go, I have to do a erotic massage and you're doing all kinds of things and you're. You have your favorite hits, greatest hits, the way you normally touch somebody. But it can be very diverse and unfocused. This is very focused.

I have to say, as a sex educator, I found that the greatest problem I think people have in sex is not sexual in nature. It's paying attention. So five minutes, give somebody, it's like a short meditation. Can you pay attention to this stroke for five minutes? Can you give this stroke for five minutes? And if it's 10 minutes or 20 minutes of a variety of strokes, people's attention may go off and you think you're doing wonderful things.

half of the time they're not really paying attention or you're not paying attention you're distracted so it's it's the five minutes is an exercise in paying attention and in this day and age of phones and the virtual seductions this is a lesson it's so Erotic massage can be, or massage, can be a time when you learn the skill of paying attention. And I call these five-minute units savorings, where you're just savoring for five minutes.

one stroke and i think this is a way to learn touch and then at the pause to say What are you feeling now? Not what did you feel for those five minutes, but what was the effect of this? And people might say relaxed or happy or awakened or tingling. And then you say, let's go on. Do you have another stroke you'd like me to do? And you go into it. So I think that structure I found is so basic, yet so powerful.

that people can learn massage more easily and they they feel if i just have five strokes i can get through a whole massage trying these out and getting some suggestions from my partner and a second time and a third time. And I recommend this, by the way, when I'm teaching professional trainings and sexological bodywork. trainings that I first taught this in Brazil seven years ago, these five-minute strokes. The students all went, oh, my God.

They gave a name for it in Portuguese, and I don't know the Portuguese name, but it was Hello Genitals. That's the English translation, because there was this constant doing. of touching and then applause and then how do you feel you know it's kind of a taking in of the experience and then doing it again and i feel

I've taught massage and I've taught erotic massage over the years. And after 40 years, this is the best technique and the most powerful. And I feel we're learning attention. We're learning touch. We're learning to savor, to give pleasure and receive pleasure. So I recommend five minute, five minute, then a short break, then more, five more minutes.

Wow, I love that. I love that. So for people listening who, you know, maybe don't know what stroke to ask for, maybe their partner doesn't know what stroke to suggest.

How might people start in that place? So the one thing to know is that nerve endings are what... cause the pleasure so you want to rub against nerve endings and this often means um certainly you can like put your hand over the whole vulva and vibrate or something like that or over the whole genitals of someone with a penis, but really slowly are more fastly rubbing nerve endings. And I find if the nerve, if the skin is a little bit taut, so one hand, you might be stretching some of the skin.

So the nerve endings are more available to the touch. It can be a very short, small touch, but certainly around the clitoris or the... In the penis, if the skin is pulled down toward the base, the skin is taut on the penis and it feels different. And if someone's even semi-soft, they're...

the pulling the skin so that you're touching nerve endings. That's the first thing. And you're touching the same nerve endings again and again. You come back and touch them again. So that's... just to be aware of that um when i first started teaching massage i thought it was um i taught different strokes i taught In my Swedish, I taught strokes for the neck and strokes for the back and strokes. So when I started teaching genital massage, I taught strokes and I made videos with all kinds of.

a variety of strokes on the penis and the vagina and the vulva. And the neighborhood, I call it, not just on the genitals, but the whole area. And sometimes one hand on the genitals and one hand somewhere else. So, and I have, I have. eroticmassage.com is my website. So I have the archetypal name, eroticmassage.com. And there are about 25 hours. of erotic massage demonstrations in different videos and including all types of genitals and anal work and massage of the whole body.

But I think asking a person how they masturbate is really, they already have a pleasure relationship. So you could get ideas from elsewhere, but. And that's always a good surprise for your partner, I have to say. But I think finding out what your partner's favorite was. Way back, I was. A movie that I really liked from 30 years ago or more is Sex, Lies, and Videotape. And it's about this man who likes to watch women masturbate.

And that's how he gets off. He just likes to watch. But when they come, when they visit him, and he says, he invites them to this, they don't know that they're going to do this. It's because he's so present and he's watching them. And there's this feeling that I'm being seen, I'm being witnessed. And I think... This is important too in this inner erotic work that you, oh, this is how you touch yourself. So you see how your partner touches themselves. And can I try that? I like to alternate.

with, oh, let me try that. Is this how it is? Now you do it. And we go back and forth the same stroke. Okay, you're teaching me. So this is learning strokes. And you asked afterwards, during the five minutes, even if it's not a great stroke, we say, you're not going to change it. You're going to do the stroke for five minutes. But afterwards, The partner may say, you know, that wasn't I'm not going to ask for that stroke again. So you're getting feedback on this. And, you know, when people are.

When people come together as partners, I often wonder, what are they coming together for? Are they... did they have good sex beforehand or are they attracted to each other and want to have good sex? That's one of the thoughts that people have when young people especially come together. maybe they just really they're good friends and they want more or you know there's all kinds of they they feel comfortable and safe with each other

There's well, this is your area. You're an intimacy coach. So but I often this is what I wonder. But I think. I want to be playful. with my friends and with my intimates, my close people. And I want to know how I can pleasure them and they pleasure me. And even if you're going to explore new areas like massage and erotic massage, this is a little bit going out into uncomfortable territory for a lot of people.

But in this day and age, this is even more important because we have such amazing distractions away from the body. And there is a forgetting of the body.

So many young people are not having as much sex as when I was young and I had a young person's sex. They're not having the same amount of sex because there's other options through their phone and through they can listen to any music they want to we had to wait till it played on the radio and oh there's my favorite song again you know there's so many wonderful but they're distracted from their bodies. So couples can remind each other of our bodies and the amazing, what amazing things.

this body is. And in fact, as I said, I think doing erotic massage and being in the body helps people to make better decisions. And for me, that's the most important thing in life is to make good decisions you know in your work in your relationships and fun what am i going to do with my time and to learn to pay attention so i think this um It will take practice. If a couple isn't into touch, they didn't come from really a touchy family, for example, yes, you can learn this.

psychotherapy would call this working on the secure attachment you know we're the secure method you're you're connecting with people physically with your partners but but i think even these five minute touches and ways to do this is to start being going youtube and find a foot massage video and practice doing foot massaging your partner and then your partner on you I ask my friends who are partnered a lot of times about massage in their relationships, and I am surprised at how many.

Of course, I know a lot of masseurs and people, but I'm surprised how many have almost daily connection with their partner about some massage. There's some kind of touch intimacy. more than just hi, how are you, or a hug. And one of my favorite students who worked in Berlin for years as a sexological body worker, told me just two weeks ago that her husband of eight years gives her touch every day.

And I said, do you touch him back? And he said, sometimes, but mainly our connection is he likes to touch me. And I thought how wonderful for somebody whose profession it was to touch, to find. partner who loves to touch her um so i think this be this becomes a touch is a way of communicating It's a way of saying things to each other without words, but words can be involved also. So I just.

So what I would say, again, the bottom line I would say to people just starting out is this. It might be a little clumsy at the beginning, like anything you do. It might take a little bit of time. For example, these five-minute strokes, right away, they start to feel good. And massage feels good kind of from the beginning. And what you're going for as a masseur is really waking up the hands. So your hands are where your attention is. So you're connecting with your partner.

with your hands and your hands really come up the arms right into the heart so it's the hands and the heart but but um i think when i when i meet somebody who's a masseur a massage therapist i go wow because i think oh a special person because their hands are turned on um any So even though I've taught erotic massage for years, even though I have these websites like eroticmassage.com, I have another for solo sex called orgasmicyoga.com.

I feel even more basic is just touch. And I think learning to touch. And if you have a friend who really is a good foot masseur. They invite your friend to come over and teach you and your partner how to do this. You know, it's what a great thing to do. video is a good way. I learned a lot about massage from video, watching it and then doing it with a partner and then watching it and doing it with a partner and watching it.

I've taken lots of classes, but the video allows me to go at my own pace. And in two hours, I can learn what I might learn in two days in a class from somebody. But it's worth the effort. It's learning. So why would people not do this? This is what I say. And what comes to me is. People do not value paying attention to their body in that way. And I have to say I don't have any answer for this.

except how wonderful and playful and fun this can be. But so many people don't value this. So I acknowledge that. But if people want to explore something and...

If you're in this for the long haul with your partner, if you're in this for the long haul, hot sex kind of cools after a while. You still have good sex. massage and even erotic massage is the category of warm sex i would say it's always there and you're connecting with your partner's body and i feel a lot of problems

with somebody who's 60 or 70. People been together for 20 years or 30 years. They say, we love each other. We don't sleep together. We don't have sex together, all this, because we stop connecting with each other's bodies. And I think if there's a regular connection with the body, you're connecting with your partner's body as it changes and grows and ages. And by the way,

it becomes more sensitive and more sensual. Age doesn't mean that you lose it. Your way of savoring is even, if people will learn to savor. older folks who really know how to savor are the masters, I think. So anyway, I'm... I think touch is a language that we really need a lot more instruction on. And I don't know how. I'm doing my part. But I welcome, I'm really interested in how to get more couples that are, especially younger couples, involved.

I offered baby massage in my massage school. And baby massage isn't really for the baby, I found out. It's for the mother. The mother gets to touch this. vibrancy and see the reaction to touch and the mothers or the father the father but when i did it was mostly for mothers but the father but it's the baby teaches the mother how to touch you know wow i want to touch more and more so uh yeah thank you wow

And it's such a sustaining practice, erotic massage for couples. And, you know, there's something that people can turn to. Like, it's one of my favourite practices is if I'm tired. I can still find energy for it I might not be in a certain mood but it's like okay well let's just show up and be touch have touch for half an hour it might just be 15 minutes each but it's having that connection and it can be so different every time

time it can be relaxing it can be healing it can be blissful it can be pleasurable it can be all of these things and so yeah I totally feel the value and the power of it and and I wanted to come back to something that you shared because I you shared as well that people can have

challenges when the giving and receiving split out so just lovely to speak to that a little bit so people are listening and they are inspired to go and explore this just so that they're aware of these things that might happen yes so because our bodies have all kinds of memories and sensations various feelings can come up that are wonderful that memories can come up and i think the most important thing here is

to tell your partner, you know, maybe we should slow down and pause because I'm starting to feel a little uncomfortable with something that's not about you, but I'm just starting to feel uncomfortable or. What I found happens more often is I'm starting to feel some pain. And this is interesting because.

people carry so much pain that they get used to but when you wake up the body even the genitals a little bit you start to feel what's already there you know and i'm not talking go to the doctor pain but uncomfortable and you start oh i have to deal with there's some things to deal with here um there's feelings of a lot of people laugh A lot of people cry when they're getting touched. And this is another emotions, too. They can get angry. So I think.

Just being clear. And if you're giving a partner a session and you notice them, I have people and ask them to breathe a pace while I'm touching. If that breath changes. then I know something has changed. Either they got distracted or something came up. So that's, it can be a very gentle breath, but I want to see a breath for this five minutes, for example, or longer.

And if you see this change in your partner, you can say, so what happened right there? Where'd you go away? What thought came up? Perhaps if they want to speak it, if they don't. I just think it's important to know that our bodies contain a multitude of things. But I think good image, I think.

um savorings and pleasure is and pleasurable memories is as uh you know is probably going to show up as much as negative memories you know but even negative memories memories it might be do you want me to stop or do you want me just to uh to change the pace or you know i think um just so I'm here with you. Guide me with what you would like. Feel my hands. I'm here touching you.

Yes, I found people go through cycles fairly quickly in touch, especially when they're breathing. They might feel something and then it's... It subsides, especially if we're doing five minutes. I have people do, let's do the next five minutes just breathing without touch, or I'll do your foot instead of your genitals while we do the five minutes. things like that. So it's paying attention as the giver to your partner. And if there's some change...

What's going on? You know, be there with them. This doesn't happen very often, I find. But if it does, it's very important for you to be there with them. yeah what's going on oh if you're feeling you know awkward or feeling unworthy or feeling shame or feeling um Like you want more. You know, I'll tell you the thing that comes up a lot is habit. And the main habit in sex is I want more. I want more sensation.

It's this going toward orgasm or multiple orgasms or release. And because the habit is the comfort, it's a... a tried and true pathway and all of a sudden if they're in habit though they're not as present to you and So that's something to be aware of. That's why I think, let's shift into a different five minutes now, or let's breathe differently. It kind of shifts the...

Maybe that's enough for today. You know, things like that. Thank you. You talked about, you coined the phrase active receiving.

during massage and I think that's really important to to share what that is because we're so used to in massage lying there and being done to and that can feel great sometimes but this is something different in erotic massage so i'd love you to share about that so i think this is i recommend this in all massage i recommend if you're being touched your body is reacting And if it's, ah, wow, make noise if it feels that good or move.

react so you're dancing active I actually call it dancing you're dancing with your body just dances in reaction to the pleasure it could be genital or it could be on the feet something's like oh or your breath might increase you might um but i i recommend movement because rigidity is a way a lot of people have learned. Rigidity and squeezing in the body of the muscles is a way a lot of people have learned.

sexual feelings, you know, to squeeze it out and to dance, just to move during getting a massage. So I have people when they're For example, I'm going to give you a massage. And on every exhale, I would like to hear a little bit of a sound that tells me how you're feeling. So it might be. Ah, ah, ah. So I'm good. There's more here. We're not talking to five minutes now. We're just talking in a massage or.

Okay. So my sense of the problem here, now we're toward the end of the session, but the big sexual problem is... I don't think we integrate sexual arousal into all parts of our bodies and all parts of our being. We kind of have it contained.

and we've learned habitual ways of being aroused and enjoying sex, and then it's gone. If we're moving, while we're on... erotic massage is the ideal place to welcome arousal in and to shake a little bit and move and breathe and play with it so that sexual arousal is not as contained. And I call it just integrating sexual arousal into different parts of your body so you can feel it.

all through your body. And so this is active receiving. So when you're getting a Swedish massage, if you're lying there still, your body is not reacting to the touch, to the pleasure, to the sensations. So the idea is we're a human person that we... We can dance with what's going on. And that's what sex is. I think too often sex is too contained also. It's very limited. what we do during sex. So sex is being an active receiver. Somebody's giving you oral sex or even any type of sex.

sexual arousal, you can react to it and play with it and dance and have fun and savor. So that's... I think that's more human than just being trancing out in a massage. And I really love that feeling. I started... I remember right after I started getting massage, I was just passing out kind of in a sleep trance. So I started drinking coffee before every massage because they go, I want to be alert. Then I started moving a little bit.

and making sounds so i do recommend that people make that people are active receiving ah with sound with movement with breath with um Just, they can speak what they want, whatever they're feeling. And it's a wonderful way to communicate back and forth with your partner.

yeah thank you so much and I'd love to finish with a final question because another area you talk a lot about is altered states during erotic massage and yeah to share a little bit about what that is So we have a rebirth right now in the culture of psychedelics and people taking psychedelics.

People go to all different places on psychedelics, on different psychedelics, and that's why it's being used in therapy and for... some people with sex some people with dancing entertaining that we've always had this some people for spirituality i think massage and erotic massage arousal is parallel a parallel universe to psychedelics that it can have all kinds of effects it can open the heart and all of a sudden your heart is open and during an erotic massage the arousal

The feeling, the intimacy has just opened your heart. Or as I said earlier, there's clarity, the altered state of intense clarity. Wow. Why am I still doing this? I want to make. Make a change there. Or I should do this. You know, big decisions are small decisions. So clarity is an altered state. Savoring. I think the savoring within sex is the opposite of savoring and my sense is dampening that we often contain and dampen.

the sexual pleasure but we can savor and this carries over into all parts of our lives good with our food with our just laughter with our partner go for a walk look at nature so these altered states But the beauty of erotic massage and massage is you get to just receive. You don't have the responsibility of giving. You give later to your partner if you have that agreement.

So you just are receiving, which allows you to experience and notice what's going on. You know, pay attention to what's going on. There's all kinds of states that can come up. As we said, some can be emotional, some can be cathartic, some can be rough memories or traumatic even. But there's all kinds of states that get... activate it. And different people have different states that come up. And that's the beauty of this work is what's going to happen today? Where are we going to go today?

Beautiful place to finish. So thank you so so much. Is there any final wisdom that you would love to share about this? You know, I would like to share with your listeners a section from my sexological bodywork training about these five-minute savorings and how... I teach this to professionals and there's the breathing in there and there's how I, the breathing and how one can work movement in and all this. So.

I'll give this to you. You can make this available. These writings from this training can be available to your listeners. about what we've just talked about amazing that's so generous thank you so much and you've sent me a link with some beautiful resources for people and there's a wealth of things that people people can follow up so I'll put all of those in the show notes as well so thank you so so much I hope for those of you listening

thing that's inspired you to go and get curious about erotic massage because it is really a practice for life i certainly intend to be doing it in my 70s and and beyond and it really is a practice for life so thank you for bringing this into the world and the way that you have Joseph and for sharing so generously with us today. So much beautiful stuff for people to listen to and to savor.

Thank you, Sarah. And I would like to say one last thing. I have the same office manager for 30 years who gets my mail and he gets all these newsletters from people. And when I told him that I was going to do this with you, he says I like her newsletter the best. It's amazing. the newsletter and i was surprised because he had never mentioned this before he said i always read her newsletter so i just want to say that there's a listening here from my office manager

I say this to your listeners too. Thank you so much. Say hello to me, from me. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Joseph. Wishing you a beautiful rest of the day. Thank you, Sarah. Bye. If this has got your curiosity going and you are interested in exploring erotic massage with your partner, Joseph has shared with you a heap of resources. It's also something that I love to share with.

so if you'd like to find out more about working with me to explore erotic massage send me an email via sarah at sarahrosebright.co.uk I look forward to hearing from you Thank you for listening to the Love, Sex and Intimacy podcast with me, Sarah Rose Bright. I support women and couples across the globe to truly enjoy sex and pleasure and to create or deepen intimate relationships that are passionate and purposeful, happy and healthy. And I'd love to support you.

You can book a complimentary call via my website at sarahrosebright.com to find out if my approach is right for you. And check out my website for information about my one-to-one coaching programs and any current workshops, group programs and retreats that I'm running. Wherever and whenever you are listening, wishing you a beautiful day.