Hey, Rose, what are you annoyed last night? I was just dreaming, Austin Powers, you know, everything is fine. If it is good and suddenly I'm getting after out about bacon sauce, making flowers bacon, floors on. Yeah. They control us like 20 times one after another Did you floss see? Yes, but not with bacon, I mean, the other ones that so who's in control of that? I mean, who pays for that? It's a problem in the advertising industry, we should ask them.
I know a guy in media, his name is Caleb Williams. Welcome to loud and clear the podcast. For those who give a shit about advertising, I am your host Francisco Cardenas, principal of digital strategy and integration at Lerma in the production, we have rolled freeze we're getting ready to head into presidential primary elections, the Olympics next year, the PGA Tour and live golf are merging. What the hell is going on in the middle of all of this CTV users, get hit with a frequency of bats.
That seems to be most That's if and wide. Why is it question and to speak about this? We have two very special guests from miq. The first one is Mo to Ty and I hope I said that, right. He's the head of advanced TV at miq where he leads a mic use Global TV, product partnership and strategy functions having built a business line over the last five years.
That's commitment. He has over a decade of product and strategy leadership experience building and scaling advertising businesses and delivering, impactful products that deliver results for agencies and marketers the second and a long friend of mine, kallab Williams, he's a results-driven media. Professional who has spent the majority of his 15 plus year. Career solving critical business challenges through the power of digital media.
He has been recognized by his peers and clients as a trusted advisor for premium Brands business forward through intelligent use of A insights and media activation. He has been from agency side to social media platforms as almost like startups. Today, Caleb is a current senior director of miq as a sales. So welcome guys. Did I miss anything on that introduction? That you would want to add? I love the intro and I was gonna say kill 15 years, you know, still look 25, so you're doing
great on them. Yeah, it's weird to think of it. It's weird to think of it in. Francisco is good too. Good to be on this podcast with you after so many years. This is fantastic now. What a thank you for the thank you for the time. I know, we're all super busy and I am really thankful we made. We made the time to discuss this important topic, that I think we're all talking about it. We're trying to figure it out. But yes, hey love.
And I went to lunch the other day and we discussed it and we want to just see what's happening. Why is it happening? And if there's any answers or How can we guide or clients and partner up with media to fix this? Totally, you know, it's funny but before we get into, I don't worry we'll get into some of the technical kind of why this is happening and how to fix it.
But as you were talking, one thing that just came to mind, was even the fact that we're talking about sort of frequency, problem is sort of a good thing in a way because it means people are watching the ads and noticing the content that's in because how many teeth Seen the same Banner ad on your phone or, you know, on your desktop or whatever, you probably get this Earth. That's a tad over and over and over again. But, you know, on TV, you
actually notice the odds, right? So the fact that you're noticing a frequency problem, but I should be a, you know, positive thing to begin with. I agree and now and I'll just I'll just add to that, you know, TV that, you know, fighting for the biggest screen in the house is something that isn't going to stop right. Whether it be Publishers who are creating, you know, really expensive content and trying to win Awards shows and then use that to leverage for subscriber
base, right? Like they need to compete for eyeballs whether it be a marketer who's trying to get a message out and you know build up their there they're following or new product launches or whatever I mean it's on all sides right? And then to your point like your dad being a consumer, right? It just a bystander of wanting to watch content and going men. Why does you know what is my son? Keep getting hit up with, you know, different kinds of Pampers ads or something, you know?
So so I think those are those are all challenges and they have different facets to him and so excited to kind of explore some of that. Yeah, I think I think it's right, right? Like the frequency, is there the presence is there that's that's a good indicator. That consumers are noticing. However, I would say some consumers, you say Pampers had, I don't remember what the ad that that that he was seeing, I would need to ask him, but what is it doing for brands that are actually appearing?
So many times. So, frequently in such a short period of time? I understand that that potentially at some point meets some metrics as far as goals but is it doing Good for the brands. I think now there's the opportunity to do sequential advertising and storytelling in a very clever way but appearing in such a repetitive way. Is is evidently without a doubt. Even if we look at it
optimistically yes were present. The frequency is their consumers are noticing but it has to have some sort of negative effect on the brand. That's appearing. Thoughts on that Moe? Yeah, I mean I think your herbicide right? I didn't want to dismiss the fact that frequency is a problem. I just thought it was sort of interesting right that are noticing. Okay. It's definitely a problem, right?
Like if you feel like a brand is intrusive Lee telling the same story over and over again and not sort of aware of how much their messaging to you. It's really easy to get frustrated without experience as a user and rather than Give me that. I mean, you know, as the sort of failing of the ad Tech system that's going on, you're likely to attribute, that blame to The Advertiser themselves, right? So, you know, why am I seeing the same papers add or the same
Amazon add? I get served Amazon, warehouse adds all the time. And so there's a relevance sort of component to that, but there's definitely a component, which is, you know, if I see too many repetitive ads, I'm going to get annoyed and you know that has the opposite effect.
Obviously of what brands are Are trying to do with their media, I was doing a search on. Why do I keep getting the same ads on Google and there was like, two point two billion search results from it. So there's like we're not alone. It's hitting a nerve with people, for sure.
Yeah, it's not just those three trying to figure it out, but one thing is, is that we saw as research in as a causes like, you know, budget hearing that, you know, some companies, perhaps have large in advertising budgets than others. Ken's win that space of appearing more times, the other potential could be. We've gotten so good at targeting right that, you know, it's so precise and so effective that we're getting the right, people many times. But again, that's where we need to see.
Okay, how good is good, and how good is it doing for for our brand? And then, I think and you guys can Talk more about that. But the idea of AD inventory and how would the liver in and working with different dies pieces, especially when you think of programmatic, what is it doing for the industry? How can we put all that in a blender to make it work in a more seamless way? We know it's working for sure, but we always want to believe that that we could do it better. Yeah, I think so.
Just two things kind of stand out to me to begin with one is just quantifying that this is an issue, right? As in is. Something that one person is feeling clearly not. If two billion people are sort of moving this or, is this sort of a real issue in one of the numbers behind it. So, leading up to this, I actually went into our sort of data that that I like you Klutz. We've got data on that over 60 million TV sets in America.
So we get to see what they're seeing on connected TV as well as what they're watching on Whittier tubing and so don't use any of the ads or any of the content, whatever sort of they're saying and And what's interesting is I ran the top sort of 26 brands that are on linear TV across a bunch of different verticals, right? Finance Insurance, Q Sr, you know, sort of retail kind of everything even direct-to-consumer with sort of, you know, one or two.
We're in there. And what we thought was if you looked at the frequencies on connected TV and layer obviously linear had higher frequency, right? You're reaching sort of the same users many many times and most brands are still spending. More money on linear than the are connected TV. But when you looked at the frequency distribution and what that means is, how of the ads that you served, how many were served heavy users, people who watch a lot of TV. How many were serve Delight
users? What you would ideally like to see is everyone got served the same number of ads, right but if someone wants ten times more content than the other person, they're going to see more ads. And what we ended up seeing was the frequency. Distribution problem was as bad or worse. On connected TV that I wasn't later as they allow heavy streamers were being served even more ads as a percentage of all the see TV ads. Then heavy linear TV Watchers here.
And so, you know, we've got some good data that have a share afterwards, but I think that that sort of very much quantifies. The issue of there actually is a problem here. Heavy streamers are seeing a lot of ads and then there's some people who, you know, maybe aren't seeing many ads at all. Oh, wow. So, it seems that I didn't know that and and that seems to be. Then it takes the problem to be a problem over X versus a problem of a specific technology, right?
Is it, it's, you know, given that it's, there's, there's more options and it's not only limited to necessarily connected TV. Correct? Yeah, I will just throw in there. That you know what Moses explaining? I would say part of the car because trying to understand what's causing it, right? That's that's that's what we're trying to get down. To is what's causing it and I think there's there's multiple facets and it's complex, it's not super distilled or simplified all the way from the
publisher side, right? So that these Publishers these, you know, networks, these content producers they're fighting for eyeballs, right? And there's two ways that people can can, you know, run their Media or show up on their They're on their services, right?
And that's either a direct by and going to, you know, Hulu or a Disney plus, you know, HBO Max Paramount and buying a Direct Buy and then trying to guarantee a certain amount of Impressions and marketer saying, we need to spend x amount of dollars a year to guarantee a certain amount of eyeballs. That's one way and the other way like you said is programmatically, right in offering up real time. Remnant inventory and delivering it through a lot of people
there. Challenges on both of those sides that I would just call out one being I think Publishers sometimes are hesitant to call out their actual subscriber numbers and so some of the times and I'm not trying to like I'm not pointing the blame at them only by any means. I know I'm just surfacing these things right is is you know Netflix was massive in this where they wanted to demand a really high premium and marketers are going.
Well, that's that's way more. You know that That CPM is significantly more than I'm paying in these other places. What makes you so special? They're like well we're you know we have the biggest largest subscriber base in in you know the us but you're like yes but how many of them are actually able to view ads and they weren't wanting to be real with it. And in March, we found out that it's roughly that they're just under a million right?
Under a million subscribers. So if you only have a million people and you're trying to fulfill big large, commitments from these Brands and dollars and at the same time, Most of these Brands, only want to run on the top genres. That's that's, that's a marketer Challenge and marketers. Wanting only want, everybody wants the same.
Everybody wants the same. Everybody wants to be like, no, I don't want to run on those things because it could be less premium or less, you know, and I'm saying that in air quotes because they just know that they want to hit the big top shows. Well, if you're trying to hit the big top shows, then you're hitting the people who are, you know, lower there's a lower base to reach because of the subscribers. And then on top of that, they're only going to run ads on those.
Top shows then you're going to get hit up quite a bit, right? And so there's multiple facets to that and then separately I throw this in there is that while you can have direct buys, you can also try to buy through exchanges and I'll point the finger at us from the industry on the supply. And the demand side of it is that there are a lot of
resellers in the mix right. There are a lot of people, a lot of different Avenues and ways to be able to go and say I want to access You know, Hulu inventory, and you could have different Supply pass and exchanges running through that. And if you don't, if they're not being transparent, if you haven't done the due diligence and you don't work with a partner like in my queue, that's trying to create transparency and path, then then you could be buying it at multiple Avenues.
Plus you stack that with your Direct Buy and then all of a sudden you're hitting that same user targeting that one dma getting really precise on that targeting like you said and then You create a little bit of this conundrum. Can I just add some stats to what? Caleb just said right about? Yes, through Kraut. Really what you're talking about. Caleb is I'm crowding about Doll ad dollars, right?
Everyone wants to be sort of crowded around the top end number of applications of Publishers and Francisco. You've probably seen it all the time, right? When a client wants to jump into screaming, they've got an idea of which apps that means, right? And they're coming to you. And going I want to be on Hulu or I want to be on whatever.
YouTube TV. I've got sort of probably two three, four apps that I want to be on and this incredible study in 2021 couple years ago during sort of the pandemic where they looked at you know sort of 25 to 50 of the largest C to B marketers on their platform and looked at what percentage of reachable ad-supported sort of TV host, CTV homes.
Each marketer was able to reach. So if you had a campaign of one Uh, sure, even if that was a big publisher like a Hulu or YouTube, or if you had a campaign of five Publishers or you had a campaign, a 10 Publishers, what does your campaign reached look like, right?
And what they found was, you know, these large budgets that were going to a single publisher, sometimes you were reaching single digit percentages of the total addressable connected TV audience, because that's just who was live on that one publisher at that, given time. So, even though you're sort of amplifying your spend, you know,
Over and over, and over again. What you're really doing is having up spend to realistically, who is available within that Publishers ad supported, you know, viewer base at that time. And they found even up to 10 viewers and up, you know, I've got to get the numbers right on this, but even up to ten Publishers on a plan, you were still only reaching about a quarter of the addressable
connected TV audience, right? And so, you know, that kind of speaks a little bit to that problem that killed just Don, you know, if you're going in with a heavily heavily sort of targeted view of the audience, you know, across a few Publishers, you're likely going to be crowding towards users who, you know, exists within those worlds obviously. So. So we see is it correct to say that maybe you're hitting that 25% many times versus the entire spectrum of absolutely, right? Absolutely.
And that's, that's what you know when when you're able to look at Use the ACR data and understand that's one of the that's one of the the solutions that we can. You know, we can talk about our the solves is just as a marketer you know being able to work with folks that give you the data behind it to really understand what your reach is from a linear perspective and what your reaches from a you know connected TV and streaming side.
You know that is what you find is that the the top 25% of your audience, got hit You know, with 60 70 percent, 80 percent of your entire budget, right? And and what's crazy about that is again, this is all digital and this is all connected and that data is available to us to be able to say, you know what, why don't we suppress that, why don't we, why don't we work toward sharing the love and spreading the the marketing dollars to those other quartiles or quintiles that maybe got hit
once not 25 times, right? And and, and And in that you start to create a better user experience, you start to create better efficiency for a marketer, right? And that your media dollars aren't being delivered only into one spot and it holds some accountability to the whole ecosystem and how do we how do we achieve that? Yeah, so I think just adding to that point on that killed just brought up, right? You know, everyone's listening to this and going, wow, frequencies a big problem.
But it's not a problem for me, because I've looked at my frequency report and it says, three and a half times that I'm crossing it right then. So in Excel in the Excel sheet, it looks great. Yes.
We're yeah. It's sort of like, you know, put all the marketers that are room, have them look left and right and go. Everyone else has a frequency problem, but not, not me in my campaign because I'm looking at it. So I think that the number one thing I would say say is the learning for us is it's not a frequency problem, it's a frequency distribution problem which is the fact that your average frequency is very high, it's a fact that if you look at your ad server, reporting broken
down by sort of, you know, frequent like Impressions by frequency group, you're going to find. There's one group that got served 100 Impressions and there's one group. That's a very, very large. I got served what impression and your average frequency might be three and a half but you Over that's over. The entirety of the audience. So if there's one thing that you can start to do as a brand or as an agency, managing your spend is starting to look at your ad server reporting.
Not an average frequency level but looking at distribution within that average frequency, So basically, your 25% got to be 200 times right back to what you were saying? Yeah, I think connecting the dots and it's almost like a
communication problem. And I was thinking as we were talking about the analogy of of my wife, sending it with my daughter, with to the grocery store and both of us having the same list and going in and trying to get everything and both coming back to the same stuff, which is what I feel it's happening, right? Like, instead of dividing and knowing, hey, you need to hit. It, this audience, this amount of times, but distributor across the entire audience.
So one percentage of that audience does not get affected in a nasty way. So is that what you would call when we talk about frequency capping? It would that be more of a distribution solution? So, like you don't necessarily Kappa 21, audience is just like more address larger In order to meet that commitment in
frequency. Yeah, I would say that, you know, frequency capping, that the way that I would Define that is really about how you're setting up something in a console or, you know, or not or in a DSP, right? Where you're trying to say, hey only, I'm trying to distribute my budget, you know, in a good ratio writer clean line. And so I'm going to cap the number of people that I can serve against per hour per day. Day or per week, right? So that's a that's a frequency capping piece.
That is part of it for sure but but what what most talking about and will correct me if I'm wrong here. But it's that distribution and that's a different data set so that's not necessarily in this setup that's not something standard that you would have access to in a DSP but it's more of getting these you know reports working with a partner that has access to ACR data that can provide an overall
frequency. Tribution and it comes in to play, you know, there's a lot of rich don't want to miss out on this massive pieces. There's a lot of data science to it. There's a lot of analysis and just because you can get access to data doesn't mean, you know what to do with it. And so you have to have the right individuals, put piecing it together to be able to make sense of how can I segment these audiences? How can I distribute it? Accordingly. And how do I not just understand who I hit?
How many households are And how many times I reach them. But what was then the associated outcome. What was the end K pi r or objective at the brand marketer wanted to accomplish? Was it did we actually drive people in store? Did we take them and you know, increase awareness, or did we take them to the site to engage with with the content? And so it's mixing all of those things and layering it all together to then, understand
that distribution. And then being able to build some really cool segments and audiences to go. You know what we are going to Peace this out, right somos, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, don't worry about it. I think they all, did I think the only thing I would build on top of that is, you know, where programmatic people. So, we almost make the assumption that the defaults choice for marketers programmatic, and the reality is, it's not right? The, a ton of CTP budgets, go
direct to publisher. A ton of CTV, goes through up front, even if it's not on fronts, there's still tons of dirt to publisher up there. And so, you know, this is an area that I think It's really important for agencies and bread Partners to be vigilant on which is your publisher Partners. Probably are applying frequency caps right Within Walls and they're trying their best to sort of manage the frequency
within the walls that they have. But what ends up happening is you might have a direct by with five six, seven eight, maybe ten Publishers, each individually, applying frequency caps, right? And heavy screaming, audience is a heavy streaming audience is a heavy streaming audience across all of those Different Publishers and so 3 here 3 here 3 here, 3 here and you hadn't been a place. Still wear your frequency in
aggregate. When you look at the ad server or you look at you know, a partner, they see are still ends up being very, very high to that heavy streaming audience, right? So, you know, this is I tend to do not a lot of pitching on my side. I mean, you know, this is why I Kayla was more of a sales person. I'm more of a kind of beating beating person. But, you know, when I, when I think about sort of how do you manage That I think two things are really important for
agencies. One is in as much as they can leverage best-in-class, Tech that's out there with the likes of a programmatic. Or would the likes of a even PG deals of direct buys? I think that helps you monitor the frequency problem across different Publishers, which is important. And the second is, you know, if there's cases where you have to go direct binocular, PG ad server, reporting. What you should look at, right? Because really, you want to go across Publishers?
Not look. Sir frequency within one publisher. Hey, the importance of the people behind it that are kind of stitching everything together, so it makes sense, right? So why is this not happening more often? Is it, is it that we're not being able to sell the value of connecting and having those analyses don't constantly. So again, going back to the original problem. This is still happening. The there's articles about it, there's me to and adds that I'm Afraid that might be over-served
or wear out in a month. Right? What's what can change? Yeah. Why is it still happening? So I'll just share a couple quick things. One I'd say is Is one get getting your hands on the data can be costly and investing in trying to do this on your own, can be massively costly and, you know, testing and learning and understand.
It is really challenging to be a marketer because all the, all the methodologies, all the ways that you prove, the, you know, the ROI and you take that back to your, you know, executive board, improve how your marketing dollars. And are built on different technologies that don't always talk and interact with each other, right? Right. And so, you know, whether it's an mmm model and and you know, that maybe lean more heavily toward TV because for so many years, that was the way that it
was defined, right? It favors TV, that's one aspect that can be challenging and it's still tricky and finicky. The other piece that I would add in there, is that on the programmatic side and on the add text side, we haven't made it easy. E for them either because there's not a true overarching, easy way to manage reach and frequency across everything. A lot of people can try to cheat the system or, you know, play a cheat code and try to just go.
We're only going to use one console because then that one console can tell us within their own little universe or their own graph of people who we reached. But again, you miss out on so much opportunity and scale. Right? And so those are that's, that's another challenge. But I would say the bigger bigger challenges.
This data set is costly to play with and to interact with and investing the energy the effort and the time can require a really big amount of dollars that as a marketer who's trying to move things forward, that might not be the utmost priority, right? And so you're kind of left to your your ad Tech Partners to try to solve?
Hmm, interesting. Yeah, especially if it looks good on On paper and I met my goals, like, why would I, you know, sometimes it looks bad for us as marketers to go and present results, and, and present something that could have cost in theory a little bit less a quarter, right? Say hey, it cost 75 percent more but, but, you know, the numbers are right. When your colleague on the other side, has the same numbers on an Excel sheet and spent less.
So, I get that and that's, that's an insult, those models. Yeah. So it's so nice. Close that everything's built into right and how we report out on it. But I will say this, I think don't think creative is lost, right? I don't think all hope is lost. So you gave an anecdote and I'll give you my anecdote, my nine-year-old daughter. Absolutely loves the Aldi commercial and she will pause whatever. She's doing to hear the whole, you know, so it's not a sale sale.
So clever, you know, like that whole engagement that whole dialogue, my daughter, eats it up and she can hear it with Her ears, wherever it says, she might need to be watching the TV. She can hear in the background. She runs into the room and she just wants to watch it.
So to me I'm not saying, you know, all hope is lost there because what what people like you and your team do and what Lerma does and puts forward killer messaging that that's parks and hits that magical connection with with humans where a brand can interact. I think that's still valid and And we'll cut through the Clutter so yeah no no I agree with my daughter also to that and I'll be like every time she grabs an avocado almost sing the jingle, right.
Like yeah a little marketing monsters. This this there's there's opportunity. So one last question is it is it also that they that we need more Brands to jump into the space so that we have More you know, basically they offer and demand right model. We're in a way it would make it more affordable. There's more players as more people kind of kind of play in the space versus having one brand, owning all the inventory and and having that is there, something about that that's
happening as well? I wouldn't say we're early in the game but still a young industry without a doubt. I think part of it is when I is I'm thinking about that, right? Like you think of all the battle on the war that is going on, from a, you know, publisher Network side of it, right? Where it used to be, everything was bundled into one place, right? In cable is easy.
And then, you know, here came digital and screwed everything up. And so now everybody is trying to fight to build their own platform, right? And you got Paramount trying to do its own thing. And then you got HBO Max You know, joining forces and trying to, you know, get subscribers and so right now unfortunately I think we're in this day and age of more silos.
Not recommendation. Yeah. More fragmentation in the content and Publishing world because everyone is trying to keep that that money and going your right to get the advertising dollars. But then also too. Keep winning awards for their content, right? And so, there's a lot of fighting happening. I don't see a future right now. We're all of that. Now, some of them may not there. They're added models might not work and, you know, they're their stock prices might go down.
The shoulder value goes down, and they might start merging. And I do think that there will be, you know, we see it all the time right in the news, every, every year, every quarter, where certain Publishers are joining forces with others, but that's been a battle from, you know, No from even before digital so I think that battle is going to continue.
Yeah they the war of subscription video on the van versus ad-supported video on demand it's on I was joking if the mo with Caleb earlier than it's incredible that sometimes we work in an industry. If you know I went to speaking to a conference and I'm like you guys are sometimes willing to pay Do not hear or see what I work on every day, right? So if you know, I asked the audience who here has Spotify
Premium, you know? And I know you guys are willing like, basic, what you what you walk-in away from is the ads but then you don't want to pay for it. So it's like it's a give or take, right? Like, it's a back and forth and then the fragmentation where we thought that walking away from DirecTV were saving dollars. Now, suddenly we have, you know, five or seven different Services where we're paying double that. So it's interesting, it's
interesting. I think it's it's putting it out there and see how the market reacts and learn from it and then and then become more efficient with with you by analyzing that behavior. Yeah, we just had a, I think the economics of this this industry or topsy-turvy about to figure themselves out and next two years like I don't think anyone
knows, right? Now the true value of an a bod subscriber where you paid somebody to per month plus you know, get some ads and that relative to an esbat subscriber that's pure play. No ads because the reality is depending on the month, depending on how strong the market is, depending on your cpms and your ad load one might be much more profitable than the other. And so, you know, you get a scenario where Netflix knocks one of its cheaper at plans that are ad-free plans out.
And says, nope, you're going to do the ad supported model. Or you're going to do this more expensive ad free model, right? And so, all of these sort of Economics, I think need to work themselves out of the next two years before Publishers really discover what an ad-supported you were as worthless to them from a monthly you know, Revenue perspective. Yeah, it's exciting times without a doubt and we again
like this is, this is more. We as ad agencies, really appreciate models and having that conversation and openness of Partners like you guys. When you spend the time for to do this, or coming to the agency to talk and Educators a little bit more about it. So, so it's great. I think the conversation is to continue. There's there has to be a solve. I think there is a Time component. As you were saying more, as time passes, we're going to see the week, the consumer Behavior.
What do they truly prefer or prioritize? And then, that's also going to help marketers and advertisers and the inventory too. Kind of saddle and distribute a little bit more evenly if if I were to come in to a conclusion of what I'm hearing and what I'm learning from this conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. And the last thing that I would throw their Francisco is just for marketers to is understanding that there is, there is data out there, there is things Partners available to them that can allow them to kind of expand Beyond this only heavy streaming, heavy usage, heavy, That, you know, audience or top Publishers and to understand their did their frequency distribution.
A lot better. I think that's, that's one of the key pieces, that could be a solve that we're just tapping into an exploring. So that's all. Well, we're coming were coming to an end, but I would like to kind of open it up for you guys to like people try to reach you or have any questions or anything. If you guys want to share their social channels or email or whatever you're welcome to use. Space. Yeah I would just say you know come check out in our website.
We are am iq.com just fantastic resources that marketers can use and see we've got blog post. We've got any time Mo goes and does a new researcher or a talk on this. We typically try to give you access to it and you know we're someone who wants to be transparent and help everyone kind of went in this space and so There's a lot of great resources there I would say. Love it. Mo anywhere where people can reach you. Yeah. So I think killed is nothing right? I think, you know, we're an
omni-channel providers. So we test a lot of different types of media. If you wanted to focus on TV specifically, we are am iq.com a TV. Hey, it's where all the team research and stuff is located. I also personally tweet a lot of that technology sense on Twitter. So if anyone's in the market for a hot, Not, I'm owner score ribs on Twitter so they can find me there and find some some bad takes on that. Well, thank you so much for the openness and transparency.
Putting the issue on the table. I appreciate you guys being here. This has been loud and clear, you can listen to loud and clear on on Spotify, Apple podcast Stitcher, I heart now. So So anywhere, where you want? Listen to your podcast, we love the topics, we love to put things on the table that kind of make us uncomfortable. So if you have any topics, also, check us out later. Matt. A agency.com or you can find me also on Twitter. Cheeto Cardenas, thank you so
much. Okay little, thank you so much more. It's a it's a great conversation. More to be seen and more to be had. So I really appreciate you guys