Episode 625: Steering the EdTech Ship

People especially don't want to do their jobs. I've found that out recently, too. I have a friend named Megan. She's an elementary school teacher. And I was out with her one night and she was drinking like a monster.

And I said to her, don't you have to do a shift at school tomorrow? And she went, ah, I'll just show a video. And I was like, that's why teachers show videos? She said this. She goes, yeah, I don't want to work. And I was like, you know, the kids don't want to work either. And she was like, good.

You are listening to WREK Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett, in the studio with Marlee Givens and Fred Rascoe, and a guest to be named later. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you're here for, we hope you dig it.

Our show today is called "Steering the Edtech Ship."

OK, Marlee, normally I would have no time for the nautical or pirate puns that are about to come from a title like that.

Yarr.

But my son is super into pirates right now, so I'm a full sail on this one.

Yarr.

There you go.

OK, well, before we let the sailing metaphor go too far, I should explain that we're talking about an actual steering committee. I just added the ship for fun.

Yarr. MARLEE GIVENS: [LAUGHS] Well, OK. Our Lost in the Stacks crew will be all hands on deck, as we learn the ropes of educational technology and its relation to libraries. By and large, we're not just two ships that pass in the night. So let's get underway. Yarr. Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead. CHARLIE BENNETT: OK, Marlee, first rate usage of by and large as a nautical term, but let's keep an even keel from now on, OK? Oh, are you not a fan of the puns?

I'm going to-- after-- just you wait.

[LAUGHS] [STAMMERS] Our songs today are all going to be pulled from a list of artists that our guest saw live in concert in the last 12 months, so that's a pretty cool thing.

I love a theme, man.

Mhm.

So we'll have songs about teaching, working together, and transitions, all from that list. And since we've got a nautical theme going so far, it sounds like, my first thought was to start off with a yacht rock song.

Maybe no?

Well, there's not a lot of yacht rockers on this list that are--

I wouldn't think so.

But Neil Young is on the list.

Hey.

He has some yacht-rock-adjacent tracks, maybe--

How dare you?

--fair to say? Yeah, I mean, we'll fudge the definition a little bit.

OK.

So let's sail on to our music, with "Sail Away"--

Fred.

--by Neil Young and Crazy Horse, right here on Lost in the Stacks.

Well, it's Neil, so I'll allow it.

Yarr.

(SINGING) As long as we can sail away CHARLIE BENNETT: That was "Sail Away" by Neil Young and Crazy Horse, right here on Lost in the Stacks. Our show today is called "Steering the Edtech Ship." And we will unpack what that means with the help of our guest, Warren Goetzel, who is Director of Academic Technology and Engagement for Georgia Tech's Office of Information Technology, as well as Director of External and Faculty Engagement with the Center for 21st Century Universities.

Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Yeah.

Or, good afternoon, sorry.

We just started the afternoon, yeah. So you you're one of those, hey, do this job too, folks, here at Tech. They've grabbed you for two big things.

Yeah, I started the appointment with the Center for 21st University-- sorry, C21U for short. We'll just call it C21U moving forward. I started that last year. So I just finished my inaugural year in that role and looking forward for what this year has in store for that role. It made a lot of sense for me, based on all the work I do in the partnership ecosystem that we've created here at Georgia Tech surrounding Academic Technology.

So you just said academic technology. Is that the same as educational technology?

It's interesting you asked that. Part of my dissertation had a section about nomenclature. In the instructional technology, or educational technology, or digital learning space, there are subtle nuances between all the terminology, but it's basically all the same. It's the intersection of technology, tools to support and enhance teaching and learning.

Do those subtle nuances-- do they come to play when you're in it with other experts, or the subtle nuances are sort of just out there the way people use it?

Yeah, they're pretty much just out there. They're used fairly interchangeably here at Georgia Tech. So my team is known as the Digital Learning team.

Yeah. WARREN GOETZEL: Everyone on my team has a digital learning title in the digital learning job family here at Georgia Tech, but my title is Academic Technology. So they're used pretty interchangeably.

Mm.

And there's also a Director of Digital Learning Technologies--

Oh, man.

--in the Center for 21st Century University as well, Doctor Eric Sembrat. And so he's one of my close partners as well, in the work that I do there and in Central IT.

Can you just define what--

No matter what you call it, what is it? For our audience who is a mix of library folks and people who are just listening to the radio, how would you define educational technology?

Sure. I think in the simplest form, it's using technology to support and enhance teaching and learning, in hopes of impacting student success and making teaching and learning easier for both faculty and students.

And when we say technology, are we basically saying computers and the internet, or is there a lot more to it that I'm not thinking of right now because I don't work in the field?

Yeah, that's a great question because I kind of put computers in the hardware category.

Yeah.

And the work I do, my team and tangentially, we don't really work with hardware at all except for in the XR space. So we've really been diving in, in partnership with the library in particular, into XR at Georgia Tech. So we've purchased and played around with a whole bunch of headsets. And that's really the first time that we've intersected with hardware. So AV Services is another group on campus that supports the classroom technologies.

Mhm.

And that is mostly hardware based. Some software, obviously, behind operating that hardware in the classroom. So yeah, that's a big distinction. We don't deal with classroom learning technologies. Our entire portfolio is cloud based. So I would say what we do is really on the software side. Got it.

So the one educational technology that comes to mind, that I think that I know that you deal closely with is called Canvas. And that is a platform where instructors and students interact with each other while not physically in the same space. Students turn in their homework via this platform electronically to the professor. They have discussion groups. Is that, I guess, the main thing of the main category of educational technology?

Yes.

So my team was founded in 2017 to support the implementation of Canvas and the buildout of the larger digital learning ecosystem. So Canvas you can think of as the hub or the epicenter of the digital learning ecosystem at Georgia Tech. And we have now upwards of 50 other platforms and tools, primarily all integrated within Canvas.

Are you creating some of those? Are those plugins? Is it just a mix of stuff? I feel overwhelmed, is why I'm asking this sort of broad question. What are all those 50 things?

Yeah. I almost feel like I planted you with that question, but I didn't. So yeah, like I said, our portfolio is entirely cloud based. The vast majority is SaaS based, meaning we procure platforms from third parties such as Canvas from Instructure.

Software as a service.

Software as a service, exactly. Sorry for using acronyms.

There are a lot of them.

Yeah, there are. We actually started a OneNote notebook for all the acronyms for our new employees. And we have about 250 of them that are commonly used around Georgia Tech. So we also do develop and maintain our own applications as well.

I want to blow by our segment time for one last question, which I think is a good one for the show, which is, how does this relate to libraries? And you have 30 seconds to answer that in its entirety.

Yeah. Well, I see the work we do as inextricably linked with libraries. I actually have a library background myself. I have a Library Science degree from Georgia State.

Oh my gosh, you're one of us. I had no idea. MARLEE GIVENS: Oh, spoiler alert. More on that later. Oh, sorry.

WARREN GOETZEL: And it was really through academic technology that I became interested in libraries. I actually started my endeavors in academic technology way back in 1999. And I think we can pick up there because I think we're out of time. Look at him. He's running the show. This is Lost in the Stacks. We'll be back with more from Warren after a music set.

And you can file this set under LB1028.3.I57.

That's "People Get Ready," by Burning Spear. And we started with "Boilermaker," by the Jesus Lizard. Who's back? Those were songs about learning and the supplementary materials that help us learn lessons.

This is Lost in the Stacks, and we are speaking with Warren Goetzel, from Georgia Tech's Office of Information Technology and the Center for 21-- 21st Century Universities.

That's why it's an acronym. MARLEE GIVENS: Twenty-one-st. Yeah.

C21U.

C21U.

C21U is a little easier.

Our show today is called "Steering the Edtech Ship," and it is time to get to the steering part. So I want to talk about this educational technology steering committee. What is that?

ETSC for short. There's another one--

--for you. CHARLIE BENNETT: What is going on?

WARREN GOETZEL: And the ETSC also feeds up into a higher level executive group called the EIC, the Education Innovation Commission, here at Georgia Tech. And so the ETSC is a cross-functional group of stakeholders in the digital learning, academic technology space across campus that was founded by C21U before I got here. So I got here in 2017 and began partnering with the past director of Digital Learning Technologies in C21U on that effort. And it meets monthly.

I don't want to write any of these acronyms down.

And faculty and staff from across campus.

So you've got director in, I think, both your titles. You're on a steering committee. And this is going to sound like a joke, but it's not. So the kind of-- taking responsibility for vision and vision changes and the direction of the larger movements on the campus-- that's the kind of thing that I don't want to be a part of. I very much enjoy working on the stuff that I'm good at now and doing small innovations within those, like this radio show or things like that.

Yeah, I do. I feel comfortable on both sides of that fence. So in OIT, I manage a team that oversees the administration of the technologies, the platforms and tools, the administration, and provide support for faculty and students. And that kind of work is very rewarding as well, direct contact with customers, with stakeholders across the institution, with students, especially.

And getting the buy-in-- is that kind of like, hey, we're going to use this tool now, so everybody get on board, or we're going to use this tool for these purposes? What are the big guidance kind of things you have to do?

Yeah. I would say there is some of that. So the technologies in our portfolio really have grown organically out of needs from faculty and students across campus, so we don't really push top down any technologies. Canvas was chosen from a cross-functional team across campus of faculty, administrators. And all the technologies that we have integrated there were either on campus already and my team assumed ownership of those technologies to be managed at a true enterprise level.

So you mentioned that all the different participants from all over campus that are involved in this committee-- and you did mention that librarians were a part of that. Marlee, I think that's you, isn't it?

It's not just me.

OK.

No, and I was not the first. Someone that you commute with or used to commute with started it, right? Well, all joking aside, can you tell us why the library is on this committee?

Sure. Because like I started talking about before, I see libraries and technologies as inextricably linked, especially as libraries have transformed over the past decade or two-- overseeing that transition in Atlanta Public Schools, where I used to manage the school library system, really moving from the old days of the card catalog and really moving towards a digital age.

And I was going to say in our first segment, I think when a lot of people think of educational technology they're thinking about the K-12 space. So is there anything different in the college and university setting? WARREN GOETZEL: It's 110% different.

I mean, there are some basic principles like data security and privacy that are critical no matter what space you're working in. But in universities, faculty have a great amount of autonomy that does not exist in K-12. In K-12-- CHARLIE BENNETT: I think that's--

It's more prescribed. CHARLIE BENNETT: --nice way of saying that you have to follow a much more rigid kind of learning plan, right, in grade school. Yeah, there's definitely defined curriculum and defined resources that you're allowed or not allowed to use.

But still, in academia, there's the-- as you described it, the hub and the spokes, Canvas as the hub and the spokes. And a faculty member can't just say, well, I don't like that. I'm going to use a new hub or different spokes.

Oh, Fred, this is Georgia Tech.

Uh, yeah. OK.

So we try and encourage faculty to use the technologies that are authorized for use at Georgia Tech. That way, we can ensure that they've been vetted appropriately for security, for privacy, to protect FERPA data, in particular, being learning technologies. And we do find that faculty are using other technologies. And that often is a good segue into learning about and adopting new technologies across campus. So it's not 100% prescriptive.

Well, you're listening to Lost in the Stacks, and we'll be back with more on educational technology, instruction technology, academic technology-- CHARLIE BENNETT: Keep using them. Right, yeah. There's probably more.

Acronyms. Come on.

And libraries on the left side of the hour.

Hi. I'm Matthew Fuller from the Center for Cultural Studies at Goldsmiths University of London. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the one and only research library rock and roll radio show.

Today's show is called "Steering the Edtech Ship," and we are examining the relationship between educational technology and libraries.

In a 2014 post for ACRL, librarian Steven J. Bell wrote about what he called the "edtech tech surge," a recent proliferation of educational technologies in the K-16 sphere. Bell admits that the surge feels overwhelming, and he offers curiosity as the cure. So among his recommendations-- CHARLIE BENNETT: Explore three to five new educational technologies a week.

Ask forgiveness rather than permission, except when introducing a new technology to someone else's class.

Keep up with the edtech community.

And for this, he recommends about a dozen blogs and other sites. So at this point in reading the post, I have to admit I found myself more overwhelmed than curious. I mean, three to five technologies a week, engaging with another professional community? Because, of course, keeping up with things is still something we all do. And the amount of things to keep up with continues to grow. But then I got to Bell's final recommendation, and it is still relevant.

And while you're chewing on that, file this set under BF-1261.B35.

That was "Scramble Suit II" by Three Oh Sees, and before that, we heard "Who's Gonna Help Brother Get Further" by Big Sam's Funky Nation. Songs about working together to learn more and see more.

Thee Oh Sees. There's more than three, I think.

Oh.

So there you go.

There are more than three. There's two drummers in the room itself.

Anyway.

You can tell I didn't put any of these together.

I love being on the radio on Fridays.

Yeah. Welcome back, everyone, to Lost in the Stacks. And we are continuing our interview with Warren Goetzel, who, like many members of the academy, has two job titles. Now, prior to joining the academy, you were in K-12, and you had a media services title at some point. And you have a masters of library and information science. WARREN GOETZEL: Yeah, that's right.

Holy cow. WARREN GOETZEL: Building websites and using very primordial learning management systems. I really got interested in the technology side. So I actually got out of the classroom and started working as an educational technology specialist for the district, floating around to different schools, supporting teachers in their integration of learning technologies.

So you went into this, but what I wanted to ask you was when you realized that moment of connection that educational technologies had with libraries, was there a thing that you were doing? Was there, like, a test-- like, you were doing something or involved in a project? And was there kind of a light bulb moment where that kind of integration hit? WARREN GOETZEL: Yes, but not along the lines that you're speaking of. So for me, it was my career path.

So that's wild. You were at the beginning of learning technology as a career. And you caught the end of libraries as a career.

I was going to say-- I mean, you're talking about funding. The difference in funding between instructional technology and libraries, I think, is astounding nowadays.

Yeah. You're like a surfer who caught a wave, and when it broke on the shore, you ended up in a Jeep that then just went right off. It's kind of amazing.

Yeah. I think instructional technology gives this illusion that there's some product-- there's some technology that can make education more efficient and cheaper. And there's nothing in that with libraries, I think.

Do you ever miss it?

I do miss it. I primarily miss the people. And for example, I was just texting over the weekend with the current person who serves in that capacity at Atlanta Public Schools and the person that I brought on that succeeded me when I left, who also has now left-- she retired, fortunately for her. And they are sponsoring the district-wide reading ball this weekend. That's the Helen Ruffin Reading Bowl.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

And so I brought that to Atlanta Public Schools. We did not participate in the statewide reading bowl competition when I started there. And so I founded that effort at Atlanta Public Schools. Started out with two or three teams back in 2007. And now it is a huge, district-wide event with dozens of schools, hundreds and hundreds of students. So I miss some of that literacy-focused programming as well, for sure. And the print materials, the books. I miss that.

Yeah.

In Atlanta?

Yeah.

No details.

CHARLIE BENNETT: The Reading Bowl feels like the physical or the material version of the learning technology stuff, like bringing together something that creates collaboration, that brings many stakeholders together, and they pass information around. Is that where the connections are for you, or am I barking up the wrong tree there? WARREN GOETZEL: You're not barking up the wrong tree altogether. But for me, it really was the love of reading.

And hopefully, maybe, put them back together.

The 80s were a different time. I was there, too.

Do we have our Gen X shirts around here?

I wasn't allowed to be bored. If I ever dared to say I was bored, I was told to get a book, and I wouldn't be bored. Yeah, I loved the book fair, loved everything about reading, loved the librarians. Like, I read every book in every library I went to.

I love it.

That's such a great note to end on. This is Lost in the Stacks. Our guest today has been Warren Goetzel, Director of Academic Technology Engagement-- and Engagement for Georgia Tech's Office of Information Technology and Director of External and Faculty Engagement with the Center for 21st Century Universities. I got it out this time. Warren, thank you so much for being on the show. WARREN GOETZEL: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

File this set under HD-588.8.G55.

That was "BYE BYE" by Kim Gordon from her recent solo album. And before that, "Boil Away" by the Bag Men. Those are songs about handling transitions.

Our show today was called "Steering the Edtech Ship." And rather than wrapping up with a question about educational technology or sailing--

Oh, good.

--I wanted to point out that today is the 15 year anniversary to the day of Lost in the Stacks.

Holy cow. The first broadcast.

Yeah. So, I-- we all know what Charlie was doing that day.

Sweating.

I was preparing to leave my previous place of work for a new job at the Georgia Tech Library, which I started in February of 2010. Warren, do you remember what you might have been doing in January 2010?

I do. I was celebrating my first wedding anniversary and getting ready for the arrival of my youngest son a few weeks later.

Wow.

Wow. 0 to 60 in the first year.

Yep.

Fred?

OK, so I don't exactly remember January 2010.

You and everybody else, man.

Yeah, man. But I pulled-- I went into my old Gmail account. And, of course, the first episode, Lost in the Stacks was this date in 2010. The second-- it was on a Sunday night.

Sunday. Sunday special.

Yeah. They did a couple of Sunday night shows before we got the regular Friday slot. But the second show was almost a month later on another Sunday evening. I didn't catch the first one, but I caught the second one. Now, I don't remember the second one, but I did write to Ameet Doshi about it, the person who started the show-- CHARLIE BENNETT: Co-founder with me. Yeah. --with you, Charlie, because it was just you and Ameet for a few years. And I emailed Ameet. Said, hey, I caught the show.

He says-- he goes on--

I do remember that, yeah.

He goes on to say, "It's a fun side project, and I'm still a little rusty. The content and delivery will hopefully get better as we do more shows. Our third show is scheduled for this Friday at noon. It's going to be called 'Maps and Legends.' We'll be interviewing"--

I remember that one.

--"the GIS librarian, a student about library geocache, and some GIS researchers." And then a few other things he says-- "I hope to see you all again soon." So I didn't hear the first episode, but I went to college with Ameet, so we were friends, and he told me about the show, so I did hear the second episode. So that's what I was doing in February of 2010. CHARLIE BENNETT: Fred, I'm so misty. Will you please just roll the credits?

Lost in the Stacks is a 15-year collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, currently written and produced by Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.

Legal counsel and a tall ship and a star to steer her by were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. CHARLIE BENNETT: Thank you, Phillip, for being there all 15 years. I think we got an email from you after the very first show. Special thanks to Warren for being on the show, to the rest of the educational technology steering committee at Georgia Tech, and thanks, as always, for ever and ever, to all of you for listening.

Time for our last song today from Warren's list of bands seen in 2024, just like all the other ones have been. This song doesn't really have to do with learning technology, I don't think, or transitions or sailing or any of the other things we've mentioned today.

When has that ever stopped you, Fred?

Exactly. This one is all about the music and how important music is in our lives. I know I'd give up a lot before I gave up rock and roll. Speaking for me, personally. So from 1972, this is the Brazilian band Os Mutantes with the track-- OK, here we go. CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, you got it. "Posso Perder Minha Mulher, Minha Mae Desde que Eu Tenha o Rock and Roll."

How dare you?

Have a great weekend, everybody. [OS MUTANTES, "POSSO PERDER MINHA MULHER, MINHA MAE DESDE QUE EU TENHA O ROCK AND ROLL"]