AARON SCHMIDT [clip]: So again, thanks for being here and let's get started. So I have titled this presentation Useful, Usable, and Desirable. This is a bit of a Holy Trinity with user experience design. And I think it's an unparalleled framework for thinking about our libraries and assessing them and improving them. We have a lot of things going on in our buildings, whether it's a public library or academic library or school library. Libraries are complicated things.
Even simple tasks have a lot of moving parts. [MUSIC PLAYING]
You are listening to WREK Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with-- well, it's everybody. We've been gone so long. I'm so glad to see you all. Alex, Marlee, Fred, Cody, a guest to be named later. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you're here for, we hope you dig it.
Our show today is called "Improve the Situation," which sounds like a pretty good plan. It is an introduce yourself show, in which we give our listeners a chance to meet someone who has recently become part of the Georgia Tech Library faculty.
Today we're talking with our new user experience librarian. That's a position that's only been held by two other librarians at Georgia Tech library, one of whom used to be part of the show.
Hey, Ameet.
There are many ways to define user experience, and I'm not going to slow down the show with any dictionary definitions or Wikipedia summaries. I'll just say that when you use the library, you have to interact with something, an object, an interface, a person, a web page, and who knows what else. And that experience is pretty important, part of how the library works.
And the user experience librarian is very interested in how that interaction goes for you.
And our songs today are about finding the best way to do something, improving a situation, and learning things in a new place. Figuring out a new work environment is tricky. And when you're also trying to figure out the needs of a user community at the same time, that's just a puzzle. So let's start with "Puzzles Like You" by the Mojave Three right here on Lost in the Stacks.
[MOJAVE THREE, "PUZZLES LIKE YOU"]
That was "Puzzles Like You" by the Mojave Three. Our show today is called improve the situation, introducing a new member of the Georgia Tech Library faculty.
Jordan Moore is our new user experience librarian, and she is here with us. Jordan, welcome to the show. JORDAN MOORE Thank you so much for having me on the auspicious first episode of the year. CHARLIE BENNETT: That's right, it is. You lucked out, didn't you?
I'm so pleased.
We were supposed to have an episode on January 3 and on January 10 and circumstances-- CHARLIE BENNETT: Out of our control. Out of our control.
I can only take responsibility for one of those weeks. I was on weather duty that day.
Yeah, as was the entire city of Atlanta, I think. So welcome to the show, Jordan. And so we want to ask you about your position and what you do here at Georgia Tech. And to put that into context, let's find out how you got into librarianship in the first place.
When I started in undergrad, I was looking for a student work position. I called up the library, which seems baffling to me at the time. If I got that call from someone coming here and saying, I need money, help, that would probably be a really awkward call. But they said, OK, here's how you apply for a student position. Got accepted. Did student worker work for the first two years.
And then, since librarians like to make other librarians, they tapped me for a student manager role because I saw that I was really into it. So I got to learn more about the functioning of the library. Graduated at the height of the recession in 2009. So the responsible thing to do was to go to library school. Got an internship while in library school where I actually learned the job and have been an academic librarian for a decade and a half.
So when you call the library to give you the job, you had to decide between, I'm sure, some other stuff. Were you kind of into libraries at the time, or was it some kind of reverse alphabetical order or what?
This sounds so cringe looking back, but I think I said, this is the only place where I can spend eight hours a day. Now, I know that that's the vocational awe talking.
Oh, nice. Nicely done.
Yeah, but it also sets you up for traditional user experience, which is being in the space, so why not love the space to begin with.
And the space of the first library, even though it was, like I said, early 2000s, it was right out of the 1970s. All the furniture, the color scheme, everything. It would be fun to take a trip to that library now and see if they've at least gotten to 1990.
And library school, was that a hard decision or were you just raring to go?
It was a pretty easy decision. My dad, God bless, he even heard in his sphere there was talking about the great retirement wave of librarians that-- I don't know, has that happened yet maybe? But he said, oh yeah, library science. You're going to have all the jobs.
[LAUGHTER]
I mean I got-- to his point, I got a job right out of library school. I was of my kind of cohort of friends, the first one to start doing what I got a degree in right away. That wasn't the case for everyone.
When I was in library school, 2002 to 2004, I definitely heard that the great retirement wave that was going to happen.
We should give folks a little bit of context about that. If you're not in libraries, you haven't heard that age librarian would retire. I think the way that librarianship had become a profession was such that there were these big chunks of people at various ages. I don't think it happened. None of us have any evidence that everybody retired.
But we did get that wonderful phrase, the graying of the profession.
Oh, right. CHARLIE BENNETT: At least it wasn't the balding of the profession. I would have felt personally attacked. What was your first job out of library school? I went into the institution that I worked before this as a reference librarian. And came in, I believe, with, let's say, two subjects. And by the end of the year it was four to six subjects.
A tale as old as time.
Yeah. And then, after that became the instruction coordinator because I found that was something that I was pretty good at and still enthusiastic and energetic enough that I think it's kind of like when they let the dog-- they're like, OK, put her in a classroom. Let her get her sillies out. CHARLIE BENNETT: Professional zoomies? Is that what? Yes, very much so before zooming was something completely different.
So you weren't a user experience branch librarian. What drew you to that position?
As an instruction coordinator, I was tasked with several things looking at how people interacted with services. The first thing that comes to mind is when we changed catalogs. We thought we knew how people would interact. We definitely knew how we would like people to interact with.
And I was tapped at finding out how people actually used it and making recommendations to not just the library, but also, the vendor because there was still some porousness to how it could be set up, some flexibility. And I found that I really, really liked that. So any time where I could fuss and make things go just a little bit better, a little bit smoother, make life a little less difficult for everyone, that was really satisfying.
And that feels like the core of user experience librarianship.
Yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: What do you think of tech now that you're here? I'm having a great time. I am trying to Pac-Man my way through all the different campus dining options.
[LAUGHTER]
It's become what I refer to as my dumb little treats and how many dumb little treats I can give myself in a week. And yeah, I'm usually hitting at least one dumb little treat a week.
You were the first person I've heard who has gamified online-- on campus dining, so that's awesome.
Treats and zoomies, this is like putting Georgia Tech in a dog park.
And you're going to be shocked to hear that I'm a cat person. Loves cats?
[LAUGHTER]
Next you'll tell me you have a humanities undergraduate degree.
Oh yeah, in two languages.
[LAUGHTER]
CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, so much irony in this part of the segment. So, food. OK, what else about Georgia Tech?
[LAUGHTER]
I'm sorry, I don't want to dismiss the food part because that's awesome. But yeah, so maybe the library, although I know there's places to eat in there, too. So maybe you can-- Yeah, something that I quickly learned and something that sets tech apart, I think, is I was told right away, oh, students are in the building. That's not our big concern. And for a lot of places, that's concern number one, just getting people to remember that, hey, you have a library.
So that's really bolstering to see whenever I walk outside my office like, oh yeah, people are definitely in here. So that become-- the job then becomes, is that experience in the building? Great. And how could we improve that experience?
This is Lost in the Stacks, and we will be back with Jordan Moore user experience librarian after a music set. File this set under Z674.75.W67S43.
So long.
[CHVRCHES, "GET OUT"]
You guys are great.
That was great. Those guys were great. That was "Put It Out For Good" by Amy Ray and, before that, "Get Out" by Chvrches, although spelled Chvrches.
You got to say it with a little more gravitas. Churches.
Churches. I'm going to write him a letter and get him to pronounce the V. Songs about finding the best way to go about doing something.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks. And our show today is called improve the situation. We're speaking with Jordan Moore, the user experience librarian at the Georgia Tech Library. So in the last segment, you mentioned your eye for seeing how something works and then finding a way to make it better, which I think is the core of user experience as librarianship. But what do you actually do all day?
So far, because I'm still in that introductory period, is ask a lot of questions. I don't want to start fussing until I understand the whys and the how. So even if it means sitting on my hands, I'm not going to fuss till I understand. And then, asking the questions that just-- as someone who wasn't there when something was formed, seeing why different things work the way they work.
And I found that a lot of reasons some services, some policies, or the way that something looks, people will say, oh, we started doing that a few years ago either because this situation made sense or we did it and we always thought we were going to come back to it and see what we really wanted to do. There were some stopgaps, there were some temporary things that kind of got crystallized. And so asking the questions lets us Marie Kondo it and say, does this spark joy anymore?
[LAUGHTER]
Do you have a systematic way that you're kind of doing your questions and reviewing the library, or is it what comes to you?
I think just rule number one, shut up and listen first. That's what I hold on to the most because I have a fixer fusser tendency.
[LAUGHTER]
You used the word fuss a lot.
Oh yeah.
What does that mean to you in a professional context?
Fussing would be with a goal in mind to make something better, just trying something. Or even if you don't have a goal in mind, just think the what if. In order to get into that mind space, you kind of have to have a sense of ownership or power and understanding about something that I don't want to rush into. I think it's valuable to come in as someone who is learning about a system first.
So the job has within it the charge to go and mess with things that aren't, quote unquote, "yours." Is that right?
Thankfully, people have come to me with things that they know can be improved and they know can benefit from some time and attention. So I'm not stalking the halls yet saying, let's optimize this thing. It is more, we know that this could work better.
Everyone is so, and I mean so, busy with everything that they're doing and the constant addressing needs-- immediate needs that another person whose job it is to pay attention to little details, big and small, is really, really valuable, and that's a really rewarding job for me. CHARLIE BENNETT: You were talking-- when we were doing prep for the show, which was a little while ago, we were talking about digital stuff versus physical stuff. Because there's maybe a space audit going on in some way.
And I looked at your job description on the website, like what they charge you with, and it was digital objects. And I was like, OK, so there's a lot more to it than what's on this quick description. Are you primarily the virtual library and digital stuff? Or is it just kind of anything that-- I want to get some actual examples of things that you will fuss with in the future. So far, and I think this is the way that the job description lines it out, it has been digital.
It's digital learning objects. So those are items that are pretty easy to find on the library's website, the resource guides, the tutorials, things that aren't too many clicks away, hopefully. They might be able to have fewer clicks in them.
And there's the job right there.
Yes. And so seeing if we are reducing people's cognitive load when they are interacting with something, even if it's a matter of, are their eyes having to adjust from one page to another? Is there a way that can-- when they're reading something, is it written in a way that makes sense when writing for the web? Chunking information.
Are we supposed to keep saying that, or are we supposed to--
Oh, it was a person that we talked used the phrase microlearning.
That's right.
So I don't know if, then, the person who does it is microteaching someone. Maybe we are microteaching or we are microhelping. I may have found a new subtitle for my job. I am a microhelper.
[LAUGHTER]
And does that granularity-- is that pleasing to you? Because when I think about it, I feel like, oh, I'm clearly a bigger picture person because thinking about the number of clicks makes me feel a little bit like, oh, doesn't someone know more about this than I do?
I find it really, really satisfying. As much as I hate death of a salesman, attention must be paid.
Oh, Wow.
So maybe a better thing is I was reading an article recently about the value of maintenance. That innovation and the newest, shiniest thing gets a lot of attention. I don't think tech is immune to that at all, and libraries aren't immune to that at all. The maintenance work is incredibly valuable. That is going to have longer impact as far as patrons are concerned because they may interact with the newest, shiniest thing a time or two.
But hopefully, they are using our services, speaking with library staff, on a much more regular basis.
Well, you're listening to Lost in the Stacks, and we'll hear more about improving the situation and maybe microlearning a few more things from Jordan on the left side of the hour.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Hello, good people. You are Lost in the Stacks with Ian MacKaye here on WREK in Atlanta.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT: Today we're talking with Jordan Moore, the user experience librarian at the Georgia Tech Library. I'd like to take the mid-show break to dip into the library's history with this position. In September 2007, Brian Mathews became the Georgia Tech Library's first user experience librarian. The day after, he published a blog post titled Shifting My Focus, the User Experience, which read, in part, as of yesterday, I have a new title, user experience librarian.
This seems to be a natural evolution for me, with an emphasis on assessment and communications in the widest terms imaginable. Essentially, my job now is to study users and to make recommendations to library admin and department heads. I'll also work with others to develop targeted communication strategies and do a little brand work. The biggest challenge will be getting all departments and units to trust me. You say the word assessment and people freak out.
While reading that, I thought, times have changed. You have to say audit now to make people freak out. File this set under BF698.A37. [HAIM, "NOW I'M IN IT"] Looking in the mirror again and again Wishing the reflection would tell me [PAUL SIMON, "ONCE UPON A TIME THERE WAS AN OCEAN"] Nothing is different, but everything's changed
That was "Once Upon a Time There Was an Ocean" by Paul Simon and, before that, "Now I'm In It" by HAIM, songs about assessing a situation and improving it.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks, on our show today is called "Improve the Situation," introducing the Georgia Tech Library's user experience librarian Jordan Moore. And, Marlee, I'm going to toss it to you.
All right, so before the music set, Charlie read a quote that was basically an 18-year-old's definition of user experience. Is there something that stood out to you, Jordan, in that litany of responsibilities?
I was thinking like, oh, if I had read that job description, if what I applied for last year read like that, what would be my reaction? What do I think I could bring to the table? And man, it would have been-- I would be having different conversations with myself. What gets me excited about user experience is the work that goes before someone's impression of the library brand changes.
I think it changes not because of we tweaked this font or we used this different color, it changes because each time they come to the library, they have a good experience and that reputation is formed. So yeah, it would have been it would have been a lot different.
It does seem like this job description-- or this quote, I should say, this wasn't a job description. It was a quote about the job. It does focus a lot on the branding, and it doesn't mention a lot-- focus on the branding of the library and how the library feels to the user.
And it doesn't focus a lot on maybe how the user, which in our case is primarily students, how successful the library is in helping them learn what they're supposed to learn or gain the knowledge that they're supposed to, which seems like it's more of what-- you're focusing more on that as well as other things, but that's part of what you're doing.
Yeah, most of my conversations about UX have been really tied to instruction. And that may be because, at previous institution, I was instruction coordinator and spent a lot of time thinking about that and trying to make that the venue where I could improve people's experience and help out a little and make life easier. So I think I'm coming in starting from something where I have a solid grounding and going to eventually widen that scope as I learn more about tech users.
And I think as the library learns more about me. Right now, I'm coming in as a user experience librarian. And hopefully soon, it will be, oh, we're going to invite Jordan to this because we know this is something that she does well, not just a user experience librarian does well.
What are some of those things that you feel confident about that you do well?
I do instruction well. That's where I become the high school theater kid that I was in a previous life.
[LAUGHTER]
Like I said, I like paying attention to detail. That doesn't get on my nerves. I find that really rewarding even if it's a matter of all the links look the same on this site, or if you flip from one page to the other, again, there's consistency throughout. So I know that I do those things well. And hopefully, I'm asking good questions, too. I'm happy anytime the response to one of my questions is, huh, I don't think I've thought of that or we haven't thought of that in a couple years maybe.
So that that's rewarding.
That's like a real subtle fussing.
[LAUGHTER]
To ask a question that you want to direct attention. [LAUGHS] It feels like the description, the idea that Brian Mathews had coming into user experience, kind of comes from that crisis of confidence that the library had post 2000. Sort of well, what are we? What do we do? What's this internet thing going to do to us. And your description of the job really sounds like, all right, we got it. We're going to do this a lot better. We're on a good path.
Let's make it better, which is a weird position for me to be in. Because I think the whole time I've been at the Georgia Tech Library someone's been saying, what are we doing? How are we going to do this? This needs to be different. MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, what are we-- what's the new thing we're going to do more than [? thing ?] pretty well, let's make it better. Yeah.
Georgia Tech Library is not alone in that.
[LAUGHTER]
No.
But I really appreciated you bringing up maintenance, being a maintainer, being someone who takes something that exists and is essential and supporting it, making it incrementally better so that it can keep going as opposed to I say, I guess, a more dramatic and crisis driven change that sometimes happens.
And I really appreciate the idea that stance can come from a place of confidence. That's really, really useful.
I'm so glad you said confidence because now I can bring up something. So what's this I hear about Jeopardy!?
Oh, my thrilling one episode run of Jeopardy! in 2018.
Yeah, we've got a minute and a half. Tell us everything.
Wow.
[LAUGHS]
I didn't know about this.
A really fun thing is on camera, all the contestants look the same height. That's because there are platforms that they adjust and have you step on and off.
A web of lies.
I'm really appreciative, otherwise, I would be just peeking over the podium. And during commercial breaks, they remind you over and over, remember, you're on a platform. Yeah. So that's very, very conscientious. Also, they remind you, do any of your calculations beforehand. You will forget to do math when that little pen is in your hand to write your final bet.
So was it nerve wracking at all? The only thing I could possibly compare it to would be like being on a panel where you don't really know what people are going to ask, but you kind of think you're trained. What was that sensation like?
I was really, really hoping that there wouldn't be any geography questions. That's what I prepped for. I learned some capitals. And one of the first categories that popped up was podcasts.
[LAUGHTER]
And I was thrilled.
Fred, do you have a last thought before we--
So this was 2018. So you got to meet Trebek, the OG.
I did, and he sassed me to my face and I was so happy.
He did. Oh, did you fuss at him?
No, no, I--
Can't fuss at Trebek.
During my little story that I'm sure everyone that had a DVR fast forwarded, I had my little thing and he gave a little comeback and I just felt like the luckiest person.
So you're about to do zoomies all over again, right? OK, this is Lost in the Stacks, and our guest today has been Jordan Moore, the user experience librarian here at the Georgia Tech Library. Jordan, thank you so much for being on the show.
Thank all of you.
File this set under GV14.
[MEN AT WORK, "CATCH A STAR"]
[THE MOUNTAIN GOATS, "COLOR IN YOUR CHEEKS"]
That was "Color in Your Cheeks" by the Mountain Goats and, before that, "Catch a Star" by Men At Work, songs about realizing who you are, where you are, and that you do fit in.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Today's show was called "Improve the Situation," and we spoke with the Georgia Tech Library's user experience librarian, Jordan Moore. And one of the things that you said was about things you want to fuss with and fussing with stuff. So I think the question we should ask as we head into the credits, what's something out in the world? No need to shame our library. What's something out in the world that you want to fuss with?
For me, it's every week I write a script for Lost in the Stacks, and I to type the same things and then I have to do a playlist and then I have to do a thing and then this and that, and I really need to figure out how to make this an easier process. I have no idea how to. Fred.
I'm going to say-- well, I think anytime I talk about fussing or I want to fuss about, I think I sound really old. Because the first thing that came to mind was the fact that I have kids ages 14, 17, and 20.
Oh my gosh.
And I don't understand most of the slang that they use. And they ridicule me for it daily. Like my son said-- I'm thinking about this because this happened at dinner last night. My son said something like, "that is based". And I thought it was something like, if you say--
I should point out, Cody is laughing over here off mic.
And I thought it sounded like if you would say like, oh, "I'm looking" and you didn't finish the sentence. And he said something I can't-- it's based. And I said, based on what? And the look that I got killed me.
So you want to fuss with your children.
Yeah, I'm old.
You're middle age is glorious, Fred.
Anyway, enough about that. Jordan, You have a much better answer.
Women's clothes sizes. They mean nothing.
[LAUGHTER]
Words mean things. Numbers should mean things. Women's time is valuable and it needs to be addressed.
So this is our downside moment. This has got to stop. Oh.
PDFs. So I was thinking about how when I am reading an e-book on my device, I can change the font so it's more comfortable for me to read. And I can't do that with the PDF. And I really wish-- yeah, you can only Zoom. I can only Zoom in. Yeah. Alex.
So I had two, and I really struggled to pick one. I think I'm going to go with passport renewals.
Oh my gosh.
I don't know. It sucks. Make it better. Why is it a form that I have to print out and mail in? And why is it now you can do it online, but you can only do it online if you're within a certain window of renewal, and they sometimes just take it offline.
This is the saddest I've ever seen you.
I like to travel.
Cody.
For me, I think it's splitting checks at a restaurant. Like, just let us do it. I hate this. They bring you the receipts and then they take the cards. I went to a dinner on Wednesday, and they're like, here, just scan this QR code and you guys can split it however you want. And I was like, thank you. Thank you so much.
Oh my gosh. My shoulders just relaxed.
[LAUGHTER]
And let me do it instead of the server.
I got to tell you all, I had no idea how this part was going to go and I am very satisfied. Fred, roll the credits.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MARLEE GIVENS: Lost In the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens. Legal counsel and a smidge of microlearning were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. Special thanks to Jordan for being on the show, to her predecessors, Ameet and Brian. To anyone who's asked, how can we make this better.
And Thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
Our web page is library.gatech.e du/lostinthestacks, where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed, and a web form if you want to get in touch with us. MARLEE GIVENS: Next week, we will learn more about the library's role in educational technology at Georgia Tech and vice versa.
It's time for our last song today. The user experience librarian tries to make the patron have a better experience every time they use the library resources or interact with anything the library has to offer. And so, to close, a song about always striving to improve. And the song is from musical theater because Jordan is a fan, a former musical theater kid. This is "Maybe This Time" by Liza Minnelli from Cabaret. Have a great weekend, everybody.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[LIZA MINNELLI, "MAYBE THIS TIME"]
(SINGING) Maybe this time I'll be