[STIRRING MUSIC]
David Wiley (clip): What is the role of openness, having given that term a little definition, in education? I think this question is actually really, really insidious because it implies there could be a large role for openness in education. There could be a small role, could be a primary role. It might not need it at all when, in fact, I want to argue that openness is really the only means of doing education. You can't talk about education without talking about openness. [ROCK MUSIC]
You are listening to WREK Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock'n'roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with everybody and more. I got Fred. I got Marlee. I got Alex. I got-- yeah, the baby's back and a guest to be named later. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. And if you're watching the clock, look, things happen. It's live radio.
But it's cool. We got a baby in the room, so everyone's chilled out.
Exactly.
A sleeping baby too. CHARLIE BENNETT: Whichever you're here for, the baby, the music, the library talk, we hope you dig it.
Today's show is titled with a question-- "Can Learning Be Affordable, and Can the Library Help?"
And? That's two questions, Fred, and those are two very different questions.
And in answer to the second question, librarians and archivists always like to say, we can help.
We can. But with respect to the first question, can learning be affordable, I don't know. That requires a whole system change.
Do you mean burn it down, Marlee?
Oh, well, what I mean is we can't just rely on the library for this.
Yeah, that would be way more optimism than we can bring to-- well, I don't know. It's kind of a bright, cold day. Maybe we have-- no, it's too much optimism.
Not to worry. We've got a guest lined up who has a lot of practical optimism at the ready, and we'll be speaking to the person in the brand-new position of Affordable Learning Librarian here at Georgia Tech. She's an ally for students and faculty looking to cut down on costs for our students.
And our songs today are about opening resources, avoiding the commodification of learning, and comic books.
Really?
Oh, yeah. We're covering a lot of ground today. There's going to be a lot to explain, so let's start with a song about a person who's here to helpfully guide us along the way. This is "That's What I'm Here For" by Roy Buchanan right here on Lost in the Stacks.
[ROY BUCHANAN, "THAT'S WHAT I'M HERE FOR"]
That's was "That's What I'm Here For" by Roy Buchanan. Our show today is called "Can Learning Be Affordable? And Can The Library Help?"
And our guest is Danielle Evans, who recently took on the position of Affordable Learning Librarian here at Georgia Tech. Danielle, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
So there's a lot to unpack in that job title, Affordable Learning Librarian, but before we get to that, I just want you to introduce yourself a little bit. So this is a new role for you. How did you come to librarianship, and how long have you been in librarianship?
Sure. Well, thank you again for having me. So I think I came into librarianship where I thought it was a unique way. I kind of fell into it. And I'm learning more that that's pretty much everyone's story.
We all fell into it.
Yeah, but I started in the public library around six years ago, knew I wanted to keep doing it for the rest of my career. So I went to grad school and, while I was in grad school, took a class in academic librarianship. I thought I was going to stay in public libraries forever until I took that class and wanted to make a change as soon as I could to get into academic libraries. Luckily--
Wait, wait. Is there any way to describe why that was? Like, did one thing get you, or was it just the whole class?
Well, I'll just leave it at this-- I was a children's librarian at the public library, so much fun. But I was a little bit burned out from cutting construction paper every night.
[LAUGHTER]
It's coming together for me now, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. But it's been a great change. I still love the public library. I have, like, three different library cards. And coming to Georgia Tech was such a fun experience. First week I was there, I realized I wanted to stay at the Georgia Tech Library, and it took about two weeks to realize that everyone else around me was willing to support me in staying as long as I could.
So I worked in public services, got to see student needs at the front lines and really getting amazed every day at how many resources we had to offer and also seeing students amazed at how many resources we had to offer.
Less construction paper, but still a demanding kind of community, just in a different way.
Yes, yeah, definitely in a different way. But the students are great. Staff and faculty are great, and I'm having a lot of fun every day getting to know more about the GT community. There's something to learn every day.
Sometimes when we work as staff at the library and then we become librarians, we kind of have influence on the position that we get. Did this come from your interests, or did it appear and then catch your eye to apply for?
A little bit of both. I worked a lot with gadgets at the library, which are the technology-lending gadgets that we have. And so I knew how cost-effective it was for students, and I already had a knowledge of some of the really cool things that we could bring to the classroom. So that definitely-- when I saw this position come up, I knew it was a new position, but I also knew that I had the skill set to make it my own but also keep Georgia Tech and student success at the front lines of it.
So what does Affordable Learning Librarian mean then to you? Is it simply reducing costs?
I think it's funny when people ask me that because I say literally everyone that works with me is an Affordable Learning Librarian.
[LAUGHTER]
We are all striving to provide resources to students and faculty. But at the heart of my job, I feel like I'm kind of a matchmaker between instructors, professors, and the resources, finding those resources, and then delivering them to professors and instructors so that their students can have a barrier eliminated to access to information. So I can do that in a number of ways, but it's really a collaborative effort.
And I think that everyone I work with is, in a sense, an affordable learning librarian.
This is Lost in the Stacks, and we'll be back with more from Danielle Evans, who is the Affordable Learning Librarian, one of many but the one with that job title, after a music set.
File this set under LB3045.74.037.
[DANGER MOUSE AND DANIELE LUPPI, "THE WORLD"]
(SINGING) So come on, open your arms So come on, open your arms So come on, open your arms So come on, open
That was "Open Your Arms" by Fabienne Delsol. And we started with "The World" by Danger Mouse and Daniele Luppi, featuring Jack White. Those are songs about being more open to resources and ideas.
This is Lost in the Stacks, and our show today is called "Can Learning Be Affordable? And Can the Library Help?"
Our guest is Danielle Evans, the Affordable Learning Librarian here at Georgia Tech, or a Affordable Learning Librarian if we take your worldview.
Should I change my job.
The number one, the number-one Affordable Learning Librarian.
That does highlight something, though. If we're all working towards that kind of goal and you're the one librarian who gets the title, what are you doing? What do you have to do, and are you OK with this weight on your shoulders of having to make learning affordable for everybody?
I'm very OK with it. I have a lot of support. I think that the bulk of my job is making affordability known to the campus. So some of my most favorite moments have been just hearing back from instructors who say, I didn't even know that this was an option. And so being able to articulate and anticipate the needs of the campus community to instructors who have no idea sometimes what resources we offer has been really, really cool. But like I said, I have a lot of support.
There's a whole team of us who work in affordability, and it takes a lot of different library units, from technical services to public services to administration. So I'm not doing the work alone, but I do realize that I have a responsibility of being a face for some of the affordability initiatives. So that's helped me to get out there and market myself and the library a little bit better.
Yeah, you're sort of a rare technical services face. Most of that unit is working behind the scenes, but you're sort of out there.
Yeah, it's a lot of leading from the middle in technical services. There's a lot of really important work being done, but sometimes we just forget to know what they do. So I like that.
And I should refer listeners to last week's show where we talked to Martin Patrick, head of technical services. When you were describing what you do, it sounded like you are raising awareness of things the library has that are alternates, alternatives to textbooks and other things. Is that right? Is that how it goes?
It's pretty all-encompassing, so definitely a lot of, hey, here's some alternatives, here are some different resources aside from just the standard physical textbook. But we also have standard physical textbooks that we could order for professors and instructors depending on what their needs are. So it's all-encompassing.
So you're out there telling faculty, hey, you don't have to buy the corporate published textbook that costs $200, $300, $400, whatever dollars.
You can stick it to the man.
I know. It can keep going up. It can keep going up. But apart from your outreach to faculty, letting them know that other options are available, is there an element of trying to bring that message to Georgia Tech administration, making this like a more widespread kind of initiative?
Oh, absolutely. I think one of the biggest initiatives that is happening right now is the Proactive Course Reserves service. And so when you think of Course Reserves, this is faculty-driven. So they reach out to us. They say, hey, I need a book for next semester, could you get it for me? And we acquire it and deliver it. Proactive Course Reserves is the opposite.
The library goes to the schools or the colleges and says, hey, if you let us know what courses are being taught this semester, we can evaluate them and evaluate the content and make sure that we have that material available or we can acquire it for you. So that has been a really fruitful project that is still in the pilot stage, but we already have six schools or colleges on board, including Scheller, ChemBioChem. We just got Architecture on board.
So there's a lot of really cool things in the works, and I think that that message is being broadcast to the larger GT community.
Did those schools take any convincing, or was it really letting them know and then explaining it fully?
I'm not going to call anybody out, but--
Hey. Hey.
[LAUGHTER]
Sometimes it does take a little convincing, but I think you just have to meet people where they are. This is a brand-new program and one that is foreign to a lot of other institutions. So I've taken the liberty to reach out to the school chairs, and if there's any pushback or any kind of questions, I say, hey, when's your next faculty meeting? I can come by.
So I have a couple of those lined up for spring semester, and then I'm getting to see my face and ask questions to me and not to an email I think definitely helps alleviate some of that hesitation.
And is it just "That's not how we normally do it" kind of hesitation, or--
Exactly, yeah. CHARLIE BENNETT: I had this worry that there are people who are like, no, I think money needs to flow in education. Yeah, and it's not so black and white, but there's a way that things are done. And sometimes anyone can be resistant to change. It doesn't make it a bad thing. But there's always room for growth.
And the faculty who have written the textbooks?
[LAUGHTER]
Oh my gosh. I had totally forgotten about that.
Well, you are listening to Lost in the Stacks, and we're going to dive more into the world of affordable learning with the Affordable Learning Librarian, Affordable Learning Librarian number one, primo, the primo Affordable Learning Librarian, Danielle Evans, on the left side of the hour. [MELLOW MUSIC] One, two, three
This is Davia Nelson of the Kitchen Sisters, and you're listening to Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock'n'roll radio show, on WREK Atlanta. (SINGING) Headlights burned like torches on the way to a war Tell me what it was that we were fighting for
Today's show is an interview with Georgia Tech's prime Affordable Learning Librarian, a new position for us and a pretty new position in the profession. Of course, having heard the interview so far, our listeners probably know now why such a position exists. But in case there are still any unclear, allow me to bring your attention to a report published earlier this year by Bayview Analytics, which has tracked OER, open educational resources, initiatives in higher education since 2009.
From the report, we learn 78% of academic faculty have a required textbook. Only eight of those are only available in print. Most are available digitally, so that's pretty good. In the 2023-24 academic year, more than half of faculty, 56%, were aware of OER at any level. This represents a drop of 8% compared to 2022-23. This drop was evenly spread across disciplines and institution types.
Overall, 26% of all faculty report that they use OER as required material in their courses, a 3% decline as compared to the previous academic year. So we may believe that education can't exist without openness, but our higher education systems are not enabling widespread adoption yet. Until openness is built into the education infrastructure, we're going to need librarians like Danielle to advocate for affordability. And you can file this set under K4293.C66.
Hey, guess what, Charlie. We're going to call a little bit of an audible here.
Is it because I hear that sound? Is that what's going on.
If you can hear a sound coming through the microphone, it's the sound of the computer that controls our audio vault dying, I think, so.
Dying-dying?
Well, certainly not working currently. I'm going to do a-- I'm going to do a reboot.
Yeah, we're doing an audible. I got it.
Yeah, I've got to dive under the desk and unplug some things here in just a second.
All right. No one changed the volume they're speaking at. Well, Danielle, we were going to go to a music set, but now we're not because of technical difficulties, which is cool. More time to talk about this is more good time. So let's jump over the music set and continue the show.
All right. This is Lost in the Stacks, and our show today is about how the library supports open and affordable class resources.
We're speaking with Danielle Evans, the Affordable Learning Librarian here at Georgia Tech. So I normally get time during a music set to figure out what my first question is going to be. What do you think people need to know-- if this is not a subject that they have an understanding of, if they're just, Affordable Learning Librarian, what do you do, what do they need to know to get oriented in this field?
DANIELLE EVANS: I think one thing that I like to tell people is just because this is so new, there is a level of flexibility involved. Based on your earlier statistics, you're absolutely correct and that report is absolutely correct that a lot of textbooks now are being produced digitally. What does this mean for the library? It means that we have to do a little bit more work around with making sure that licensing and acquisitions is tighter.
So while we could always order a couple of physical Course Reserves to have at the info desk on reserve-- and that's just an order, one and done-- making sure that licensing is up to date and that we have the correct user license for these digital courses are-- it takes a lot more effort. So luckily, technical services, our acquisitions librarian, Stephanie, does a great job with that. But it does require a little bit of flexibility. Let's drill down on that a little bit.
So ebooks, when you "purchase--" and I'm putting quotes around purchase because-- when you rent ebooks, you can get a certain kind of license, multiuser, unlimited, single user, one, two, three, And these have different prices. They have different restrictions. Marlee's nodding over there. Are you thinking of a particular thing, or are you just agreeing?
Well, I am because I do have an experience from a few years ago of trying to acquire what was essentially a textbook, an etextbook. And the license was very confusing, and it turned out that it was really difficult for the students to use.
To literally get to the book?
No. Their experience, they could open the book, but then the e-resource itself would keep making them reaccess it, and that would count as one of the uses. And we had a-- we had a limited number of uses. And so they'd be in the middle of reading, and then they'd try to get to the next page. And it would say, nope, you need to log in again. It was really difficult for them to get the content that they needed. They kept getting logged out, basically.
And then the library ended up having to order it a second time and almost a third time, and we said, you know what? We kind of need to cut this off and-- yeah.
Danielle, what's your response to that? What do you feel when you hear that? DANIELLE EVANS: Man, that stinks.
[LAUGHTER]
It does. And I think that one really cool thing is a lot of vendors are starting to kind of let us play around with licensing and how purchasing goes. A perpetual license, which essentially allows us to access for an unlimited amount of time, could cost so much. But by reducing that cost by saying, hey, we have such-and-such number of students, could we work a different kind of model where we pay per access-- Attenuating it to the right number, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so that was actually a little experiment that we did this semester, and it's shown that it could be done. And hopefully, we'll start to see more of that as time goes on.
Hey, Fred, you look a lot less stressed.
Well, I'm still pretty stressed, but the computer is now functional again for now.
I think we should play some music while we still can because we may have to abandon everything but our voices by the end of this.
You're probably right, so let's just celebrate our descent into the void.
Can I refile the set?
Yeah, please do.
K4293.C66, and get it right, computer.
[MOTHERS OF INVENTION, "ABSOLUTELY FREE"]
(SINGING) Love Can't buy me love Love "Can't Buy Me Love" by the Supremes, before that "High Price" by Dead Roo. Ah, that's terrible. And then we started--
They are Australian.
--that set. Yeah, yeah. We started that set with "Absolutely Free" by the Mothers of Invention, songs about things being more valuable because they're not for sale.
We're speaking with Danielle Evans, the Affordable Learning Librarian here at Georgia Tech. CHARLIE BENNETT: So Danielle, we've had some technical difficulties on this show. We've bounced from idea to idea. And it's clear there's a lot of granularity to your job that we could dive into, and we'll do that at another time. What's the future here? What do you want to accomplish? What does the Affordable Librarian job need to pick up and carry?
That's a good question. I'm pretty optimistic, very idealistic. A long-term goal that I see for this is having every school or college in partnership with the library looking for affordable materials for students. 25% to 35% of the Georgia Tech community is on some kind of financial aid, so affordability in terms of their textbooks should not be a barrier to their student success.
And I'm looking for ways to eliminate that barrier every day, and I think starting off with getting all of the schools and colleges on board is going to really help propel this.
The baby, I think, is very enthusiastic.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, he's into it.
We've danced around a couple words because of FCC regulations for noncommercial radio. "Affordable" can be anything from requiring nothing all the way up to being somehow not as much as something else. There's a lot of flexibility to the word "affordable."
Yes, definitely.
There's also flexibility to your job because I have a note here that you have brought another one of your passions into your professional work. You're interested in initiatives that make comics affordable.
Oh, yeah, definitely. I am a huge comic book fan. Shoutout to my partner, who got me into comics. But I was reading an article the other day. Somebody had tweeted that they saw DC Comics in their local Dollar Tree. I was like, what? What? Because when you think of-- you think of food deserts. There's also information deserts and book deserts. CHARLIE BENNETT: Culture deserts, yeah. Yeah, culture deserts. Not everyone has a local comic book store around the corner.
Shoutout to local comic book stores. But everyone has Dollar Tree, and if a child or adult is in line and sees that Batman comic that didn't really sell well in his first printing at the local comic book store but they pick it up and they enjoy it, that's going to make my day. And I'm all about quality comics, and I don't think that just because you find it at the Dollar Tree and it's one of the surplus comic issues it's not worth reading.
One of my favorite comic books was actually one that was written by an author who-- that was at the time his worst-selling comic book, and it's my favorite comic book of all time.
Oh, you have to name it.
Yeah. Oh, of course. So it's a Supergirl-- Woman of Tomorrow by Tom King, which is now getting made into a movie next-- or in 2026. So I'm excited. It's not one of his worst-selling comics anymore ever since the movie got announced, but yeah.
Now, that is the way to end an interview. This is Lost in the Stacks. Our guest today has been Danielle Evans, the Affordable Learning Librarian here at the Georgia Tech Library. Danielle, thanks for joining us, and thanks for giving Tom King a shoutout.
Oh, absolutely. Thank you all for having me.
File this next set under PN6710.B48, and let's just hope nothing happens.
Cross your fingers. One, two, three, four (SINGING) --want to be late Archie's gonna be there Jughead's gonna be there Betty's gonna be there too
That was "Archie's Party" by the Archies, "Spider-Man" by the Ramones, and "Comic Books" by Debbie Harry, songs about comic books and comic book characters being there for all of us.
Today's show was called "Can Learning Be Affordable? And Can the Library Help?" And it was all about making the materials that academic institutes use in their class curricula affordable or, even better, not hard to get. We talked about all kinds of materials--
[LAUGHTER]
Go ahead, Fred.
It's free, F-R-E-E, "free."
[LAUGHTER]
We're supposed to say it, FCC. We talked about all kinds of material, course readings, course packs, textbooks, and we even talked about comic books.
Charlie, I'm personally not a comic book reader. But my kids are, so I've been hearing all about the books on their gift list this holiday season.
You should dip into one of those.
In light of the subject of today's episode, I thought I'd ask my middle child, high schooler, age 16, who has asked for about five billion different graphic novels and manga comics, what she thinks about the availability of comics in an academic setting. So I'd like to play what she had to say now if that's all right with you.
Good luck.
Any type of literature could be taught. There's really no difference just because it's pictures and stuff. And there are a lot of manga that do deal with heavier topics or are reflections of politics and stuff like that.
Do you think there's anything particularly valuable about your favorite, Moriarty the Patriot?
First off, it's not my favorite, Papa. I think it is pretty interesting. It's not historically accurate at all. Don't go into it looking for historical accuracy. They put things that happen in the '40s into happening in the 198-- into the 1880s. That's nonsense. But I think it is a pretty interesting look at classism and things like that.
Do you think that universities should provide access to manga for free for classes?
I think they should just provide access to it for free in general, not just specifically for classes, because reading and art should be accessible to all.
I feel pretty good about almost everything that child said.
Pretty proud.
Roll the credits, man. MARLEE GIVENS: Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
Legal counsel and-- oh my gosh, what is this they're bringing in right now? Is it a brand-new computer for us? Oh my gosh. These legal counsel and this were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks, Philip.
We'll get Fred to install that as soon as the show is over.
Oh, no.
Special thanks to Danielle for being on the show, to every faculty member everywhere willing to struggle against the system to make learning just a little more affordable for students. Special thanks to Fred for above and beyond duty on the board today. And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
Our web page is library.gatech.e du/lostinthestacks, where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed, and a web form if you want to get in touch with us.
Next week, it's our last show of the year.
Oh my goodness.
And we are celebrating LITSmas with a conversation about cooking and feasting.
Excellent.
Delicious. Time for our last song today. For most people, a university education is not free, especially in the United States, but until we get that thorny problem sorted out, librarians will keep advocating for affordable material options wherever and whenever we can. We're all Affordable Learning Librarians, right? So let's close with a song about hope that our systems change for the better. This is "Education for Free" by I-Roy right here on Lost in the Stacks.
Have a great weekend, everybody.
A lot of advocacy happening right here at the end.
[I-ROY, "EDUCATION FOR FREE"]
(SINGING) What was my call That one I tell you
[PHONE RINGS]
Hey, [INAUDIBLE] take my call
[INAUDIBLE]