I am a metadata librarian. That's my day job.
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It is interesting because when I meet people, I don't often talk about being a librarian, and I think part of that is because I work in metadata. And when you meet people who are not librarians, they don't really know what that means.
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You are listening to WREK Atlanta, and this is Lost in the Stacks, the research library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett, in the studio with a bunch of stuff I don't understand and some people, Marlee Givens, Fred Rascoe, and Cody Turner. Fred doesn't know what to do with that joke. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you tune in for, we hope you dig it.
And our show today is called "On Beyond Cataloging." It's another edition of our occasional series where we interview new librarians at Georgia Tech and find out who they are and what they do.
Cataloging.
Yes.
I really like a cataloging episode. I've been working in libraries for 27 years, and there's still parts of our profession that confuse me, that keep me guessing whenever I hear about them, and cataloging is one of those parts. So I'm delighted when we have a guest that can shed some light on how the parts fit into the whole of the library picture.
Well, Charlie, guess what?
What?
Today, the specific part we're looking at is the metadata librarian.
I understand what that sort of means.
Well, as we will learn, while the work of a metadata librarian includes cataloging, it goes beyond that, hence the title "On Beyond Cataloging."
Is it "On Beyond Cataloging" Or is it "On, Beyond Cataloging"?
Both of those, depending on your mood.
OK. So like the classic Dr. Seuss book On Beyond Zebra, we're going to add letters beyond where the alphabet ends.
So we'll see if our guest today adds any Wumbusses, Sneedles, or Yezzamuzaluzzes.
[LAUGHTER]
Yes.
I don't think that's how it goes, but I also think it's OK.
All right.
Yeah, yeah, it's fine. Yeah. Today we're going to see if we get some yezzamuzaluzzes.
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Snicks, snucks, gerps and gores.
Our songs today are about searching and discovery, going beyond, making surprising connections to spark new ideas. You know, shaking things up. So let's start with a song about shaking things up in a digital environment. This is "Shake Electric" by The Spiders right here on Lost in the Stacks.
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That was "Shake Electric" by The Spiders. And our show today is called "On Beyond Cataloging."
There should be an echo. (CHANTING) "On Beyond Cataloging."
Cody, come here a second.
OK.
Just say it.
I like this. This is good.
Say it just behind me, OK? Ready? 1, 2, 3. (CHANTING) "On Beyond Cataloging"
Cataloging.
That was actually really good.
Right. OK.
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So "On Beyond Cataloging." And for "On Beyond Cataloging," we're going on and beyond with our guest, our colleague here at Georgia Tech, Presley Dyer, the metadata librarian. Welcome, Presley.
Thank you. I'm glad to be here.
So before we get started going on beyond cataloging, just tell us a little bit about you and how you got into librarianship. Because I don't imagine that a lot of people sit around and think, you know what I want to be is a metadata librarian.
No. I actually got into the library field thanks to my-- I went to North Georgia College, now University of North Georgia, and went to the career center and took a career aptitude test. And my first resort came back as a military officer, and then my second result was a librarian. And the career counselor was like, you have very unusual results because you like detail and structure and order, but you love the liberal arts. And those two don't usually go together.
And so the counselor recommended I look into the library field because she's just like, it's the best of both worlds. You get to enjoy the liberal arts, but you have the order and structure that you like to use every day.
Were you ready for that result? Did you recognize yourself in that contradiction?
Yes, I could see-- I knew I did not want to be a military officer. So I know right away that was not the career path for me. But once that librarian result showed up, I was just like, oh, well, maybe I would like the library world. So then I actually expanded my view of the library and went to the CNN library and met with the CNN library director and got a feel for the specialized library side. And it was just like, wow, this is really cool. Libraries are not dying. They're not going away.
And then so from there, I just jumped-started my career.
Was that an internship, or did you just visit it and--
No, I just randomly called one day and was just like, I'm thinking about going into the library profession. Is there someone I can speak with that could give me a tour of the library? And so, yeah.
That's awesome that happened.
Mhm. MARLEE GIVENS: Yeah, I don't know that I would have thought of CNN first. Well--
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PRESLEY DYER: Well, I, of course, was used to the public library and then, of course, academia. But it was one of those things like, oh, libraries are dying. They're going away. And it's just like, well, let me think broader. Let me go think of a library that I am not used to, and then just googled specialized libraries. And CNN came up. I'm like, oh, well, that's in my backyard.
Did you have a number of concentrations or possible jobs that you moved through to get to metadata, or did you find that early on?
So I found it early on when I started volunteering at Young Harris College. It's in the North Georgia mountains. And I-- eventually, volunteering became a part-time position. And while I was part-time, the cataloging librarian retired, and a new that position needed to be filled. And so it was kind of an intern. Nobody wanted to take cataloging. So it was just like, oh, well, I'm in library school. It will give me a chance to-- I'm going to be taking cataloging as a course.
So this will be a great opportunity to learn the foundation of it. So just got into it from there. CHARLIE BENNETT: And we all laughed when you said no one wanted to take the cataloging position because there's not any division. But it does seem like cataloging is a rarified part of librarianship. Do you feel that? Do you feel like there's a-- Yes.
Yeah.
It's very black-and-white in one sense, which is great if you like detail and structure. But--
Like a military officer.
Yes, just like a military officer. But at the same time, it is tedious work. And a lot of people don't like to just sit and look at the computer screen and think about, oh, should a colon go here? Or should a-- does this need to be a sub-field B, C? So it's just a lot of just, like I said, tedious work.
Yeah. And do you find it tedious even as you find it rewarding?
No. When I took cataloging in library school, I was just like, oh my gosh. No wonder nobody wants to do this.
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Because when you take it as a course, you're just getting thrown all this information. And you don't have the monograph that they're talking about in front of you or a record directly in front of you. It's really hard to understand the concepts. And then but actually doing it on an everyday basis is when I really got into it and enjoyed it.
This is Lost in the Stacks, and we will continue to go on beyond cataloging with metadata librarian Presley Dyer after a music set.
File the set under PZ8.3.G276. [PRINCE BUSTER, "ONE STEP BEYOND"] One step beyond
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That was "Resources" by Tella Viv, and before that, "One Step Beyond" by Prince Buster. Those are songs about working with what you have in order to go beyond.
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This is Lost in the Stacks, and today's show is called "On Beyond Cataloging." We are speaking with Georgia Tech Library's metadata librarian, Presley Dyer. So you talked a little bit about some of your work experience before coming to Georgia Tech, and it sounded like there was a lot in that story. Is there any very particular difference or sharp contrast with the work you did before and what your work is here at Georgia Tech?
Yes, there has been. In my previous positions, it-- they all provided me with the foundation of what cataloging is in the sense that I learned the schema, which is MARC 21, that we use in the libraries. And I worked in a public library, so I got to learn the Dewey classification system. And then I also worked at Tennessee State University in Nashville, and so I got to hone in on the Library of Congress side of things.
But in both of those positions, print material and other physical materials like DVDs, CDs, audio books were-- it was always at the core of what I was cataloging. And then when I got the position here at Georgia Tech, the definition of cataloging expanded and to encompass metadata, which is-- when you think of metadata, it encompasses all of the digital aspects that are now on the scene today.
So now I am using other computer languages-- I mean, learning computer languages and other formats and thinking beyond just the print physical materials that I'm used to.
Is that what you wanted out of the job? Is that what drew you here?
Yes, it was because I knew that cataloging was changing and it was going to be this all-encompassing digital aspect that I needed to grow and learn more about. So it was a good choice and opportunity for me.
So you're talking about cataloging or metadata beyond cataloging. You know that's the theme of the show, beyond cataloging. Do you see metadata librarianship or metadata in the profession as building on cataloging? Or is cataloging built on metadata?
So it was actually-- when you think of cataloging, the first thing-- because I think the term has been around a long time, and it's usually-- when most people associate it, they think of it being outdated and not as hip as the metadata term. And it's because when you think of cataloging, I-- even though when I was in elementary school was when around the time when the card catalog went away. But it was like, oh, OK. Cataloging. When you think of cataloging, you think of the card catalog.
And so it's like with metadata, the foundation of metadata is cataloging because cataloging is all about data cleanup, categorizing and finding the appropriate resources, and so it's the core of what metadata really is. Metadata, too, it can be. You can look at it the opposite way, too. Metadata can be the core of cataloging because it's about data. But in the general sense, metadata is going beyond cataloging. CHARLIE BENNETT: Does your job involve the creation of metadata?
Does it involve parsing what metadata should be attached to something? So with cataloging, like I mentioned before, we use MARC 21. But now that we are going beyond the print and we are going online and incorporating electronic resources and that type of thing, we are using more schemas languages. So you're not just sticking with the core schema, MARC 21. We're using-- there's another schema called Dublin Core, and it's just the beginning of what is out there.
And so, yeah, just trying to expand my horizon and learn more about what's beyond.
When you say "schema"-- I'm going to say it like I understand it, and then you'll tell me how I'm wrong. Does schema encompass both the things that might have values and then the particular options for those values in a long record? Is that how that works?
Yes. And you have heard standards. It incorporates the standard of how you go about categorizing. There's fields and then sub-fields within those fields. So for example, the Title filled in MARC 21 is the 245 field. And within that 245, you have not only the title, but the author who wrote it. And then, of course, titles have subtitles, too. So then you may or may not have the sub-field B.
Oh, gosh.
I can see why, when I was in library school, the thought of being a cataloger or metadata librarian just filled me with terror.
It's just, yeah, I flashed on tax forms.
Oh, yeah.
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But then it does become a language, and you've learned how to speak the language and write in that language.
Mhm.
Yeah, yeah. So we're just about to the end of this segment. But as much as this concept of creating this metadata might fill the three of us with terror, clearly, it doesn't for you. You're also interested in a future where AI tools are used to create metadata. And so we've just got about 30 seconds left in this segment. Can you talk about how you're leading those professional discussions?
So, yes, a big part of my job now is data cleanup. And I am beginning to use AI tools like ChatGPT to instantly create a code to help clean up the system, the library system. So it's like I am still learning. Like I said, I'm just beginning to use AI, but I can see great potential with it. And it does save metadata librarians, catalogers a lot of time because what took us hours to do can be done in 10 minutes now.
So it's really nice in the sense that it helps with just getting the job done quickly.
Fred, it sounds like this AI thing is not going away.
I managed to work it into this conversation, too.
Oh, I know. I know.
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks. And we'll hear more about Presley's work as a metadata librarian on the left side of the hour.
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OK. Hi, I'm Jeff Bowker. I play with databases, and I am delighted to inform you that you are listening to Lost in the Stacks on WREK Atlanta.
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You know, I think we should put some mountains here.
Today's show is called "On Beyond Cataloging" with the metadata librarian here at Georgia Tech. In the past few years, we've had wonderful guests on Lost in the Stacks to discuss metadata. Metadata. Wow.
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Robin Fay, of course, and Sonya Slutskaya, Sarah Cruz, Amber Billy, many more. But as we're exploring the creative and expansive possibilities of metadata, I thought it would be appropriate to read a quote from another past guest, who I believe you heard at the top of the show, too, Fred--
That's correct.
--the metadata librarian, Anne Kardos. This is from her book called Unseen Labor, which is about stitching projects created by metadata librarians. We've read this excerpt before, but it's an apt encapsulation of how metadata librarians feel about their work. So I'm going to read it again. "We metadata librarians all want you to think about the labor that we put into each resource you check out of the library, physical and digital alike.
We want you to remember the people behind the scenes who make the discovery of resources possible. But we also want you to think about library metadata and resources a bit more colorfully and creatively, like we do." File this set under Z66, oh my gosh, 6.5.C37. Rock.
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That was "Look What I Found in My Beer" by The Beautiful South. And we started the set with "You Keep on Looking" by Gary Wilson, which again, I will point out had no 666 vibes to it. Those were songs about enabling search and discovery.
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This is Lost in the Stacks, and our show today is called "On Beyond Cataloging" with our guest, Presley Dyer of the Georgia Tech Library. And cataloging is all about making connections. So you have a personal connection with a project from your hometown. Is that right?
I do. So, yes, metadata is about making connections with the user to the resources and just connecting resources from the library to the wider, broader internet in general. But so the project-- and it's about connecting people. And so this project in particular is very close to my heart because it is taking place in my hometown, Hiawassee, Georgia, Towns County.
And it is about preserving and digitizing our county's history and having the community come and bring their personal histories to share not just with the community, but with the outside world, too, because Towns County is one of the lowest counties in Georgia for digitization rates.
So I am working with several different people from Mercer, Kennesaw State, a high school connection and the Towns County Schools and Towns County Historical Society to start the process of preserving and digitalizing these older stories and histories.
Are all the local librarians from Towns County? Are you all connected?
No, I'm actually the only librarian, so it kind of-- I got roped in because I was a librarian.
Did they seek you out and say, come on.
They were like, you know how to do research. This is a good thing. And then it was just like, oh, we are going to be collecting items, and they're going to need to be organized. And you are a metadata librarian, so you should know a little bit about that. And then it's just one of those things. I am a metadata librarian, but that's not the same thing as an archivist.
And so it was just like-- it was a good learning opportunity for me as well because I got to see another aspect to the library world, which is-- archives and the library world oftentimes get connected together even though people don't realize they're completely two separate professions. So it's not-- CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, normally, we have an archivist on staff here to say that, if they need to. But--
Right. Hi, Alex.
Yeah, hey, Alex and Teddy.
So what's the goal? It's the Towns County Historical Society. So what actually are you are you digitizing?
So we had an event in June where we had an announcement. We advertised, made announcements to the community at large to bring in old photographs, like--
So you're reaching out to citizens to bring in material.
Mhm, we are. And that was just the first step to just see what resources, materials we can even get to start the project.
What are people bringing you?
So we had old photographs from the 1800s. We had family bibles and newspaper clippings. We wanted to start off with mainly print materials and then just go from there since it was just easier to focus on it and not audio or video recordings. So we are hoping we can include those in the future.
But the goal is to hopefully write a grant to get more funding to digitally preserve these items and hopefully work with Towns County Schools to have students get involved and let this be a learning opportunity for them as well. And then hopefully, the big, larger goal is to have the Towns County Resource Center hopefully one day, so where we can house all of these materials so it can be on display for people.
So now that you've been doing it, do you feel like your metadata librarian position did prepare you for it or didn't prepare you for it?
It did. Thankfully, I had some help with learning a little bit about the archives, the archival side of things because Kennesaw State is-- their archives are housing our materials that we collected in June. And so they helped create the spreadsheet of how they like to organize it. But it was quick, OK, we're using Dublin Core. I know you know the foundation for it, but here it is. And then from there, they gave me a basic tutorial of how to do it. And then I took it from there.
I have to say that the idea of sending out a message to the entire county like, hey, bring in some historical material, whatever you've got, that would fill me with a little dread. Brave on you for doing that.
Yes.
And I think we should ask you to commit to doing another episode about that very project when you get farther along, when you start building the exhibit.
So, yes.
Excellent. This is Lost in the Stacks. Our guest today is Presley Dyer, metadata librarian at the Georgia Tech Library. Thanks for being on the show.
Thank you for having me.
File this set under LA262.T7A2.
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I had a--
["ORCHESTRAL MANEUVERS IN THE DARK, "ELECTRICITY"]
"Electricity" by Orchestral Maneuvers in the Dark, OMD. Before that, "Odd Connection" by Sunbeam Sound Machine. And we started off with "She's Got the Time" by The Afex. Those are songs about how making time and making connections sparks new ideas. Oh, and there's supposed to be some bump music here, but--
It's OK, I'll just jump. Today's show is called "On Beyond Cataloging," and our guest today told us how her metadata librarian journey led her to collaborate on a digitization project with her hometown. So let's do a lightning round here. What's an unexpected entity you would like to partner with for a library project, Fred?
I don't know if it's unexpected for me, given the fact that you know me, but I think definitely any sort of fossil description project.
Of course.
Yeah, that's where I would land.
Yeah.
I have no idea other than I hope they're based in Europe so I have to travel there.
Oh, nice.
What about you, Charlie? CHARLIE BENNETT: For some reason, I'm thinking firefighters. Something about archives and histories and-- Wow.
--their influence on the community. Something like that. But I have no more ideas, so let's just roll the credits
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MARLEE GIVENS: Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens. Legal counsel and some very interesting results from a career aptitude test were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia.
I hope you share those.
Nope.
Special thanks to Presley for being on the show, to all metadata librarians for going on and beyond. And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
Our web page is library.gatech.e du/lostinthestacks, where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed and a web form, if you want to get in touch with us.
On next week's show, we'll talk to a copyright librarian that's trying to prepare for an AI future by making sure human safeguards are in the loop.
That sounds like a movie pitch, Marlee.
Yeah, exciting one. Time for our last song today. Metadata librarians, as we've learned today, do work far beyond the confines of the stereotypical technical services basement.
"On Beyond Cataloging," Fred.
So let's close with a song about the work environment of the metadata worker, "Fields." It could be a specific metadata field in an item record. It could be a professional library field as a whole, probably even actual fields outdoors--
We're getting dangerously close to pun territory.
--full of Wombasses and yazzmatazzes. Anyway, this last song is called "working in the Field" by Eerie Wanda right here on Lost in the Stacks. Puns are all right. Right, Charlie?
No.
[LAUGHS]
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