This is one thing that I was going to wait a while before we talked about. Maybe we'll talk about it now so you can think about it, because you all, we all have to make some kind of plans for ourselves. It's a free concert from now on.
[TELEVISION, "FRICTION"]
You are listening to WREK-Atlanta and this is Lost in the Stacks, the Research Library Rock and Roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with Fred RASCOE, MARLEE Givens, Cody Turner. And about 20% extra humidity. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you tune in for, we hope you dig it.
Today's show is called Three more themes. It is, as longtime listeners probably can guess, a sequel to an episode last year that we called Three Themes. This is what free cuts have become.
Yep. And boy, you weren't kidding about that humidity, Charlie.
I never kid about humidity.
It's brutal in here. We used to have shows called free cut, named after a station policy here at WREK. A free cut usually happens just once, a shift when the DJ doesn't choose the song from the music directors curated collection and instead pick something out of the vaults for their own enjoyment.
So on Lost in the Stacks, a free cut means no official show topic and no music theme.
As you heard in the intro today on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme each episode and then build a show from it. For example, this year we've done shows on professional liaison work, public art in the Georgia Tech Library, and library instruction. We pick a theme, choose music, find a guest, and spend the whole hour on that subject.
This episode is a little different. This time three hosts Marlee, Fred Rascoe and me, and maybe even we'll get some input from Cody because he has a mic to himself. Well, each of the three hosts pick their own theme. And you are about to hear essentially three pitches for potential shows. That's how we're going to treat these themes.
Last time we did this, we brought in prepared music sets. And this time, I think we're going to change that up too.
Yeah, sort of, because we had to pivot very fast to this episode format. Our expected guest today has COVID. So, they are no longer our expected guest.
Right. So we're changing the theme, changing the guests, changing everything. So we're choosing today's music on the fly from automation, surprise, song selection. And whoever does a set list will figure out a way that the songs that are played are tied to that particular theme. Kind of like a PowerPoint battle deck, except songs, not slides.
It's just now in this moment that I'm realizing, I cannot believe that I agreed to this. What's the first song, Fred?
OK, I think we're going to play something that you'll appreciate. It's recorded by Steve Albini.
Hey, nice.
It's a band called Meet wave, and the song is called Leopard Print Jet Ski. CHARLIE BENNETT: Of course it is. Which fits today's show because...
Oh, a free associative title, multiple elements that all come together to effective yet oddly eccentric whole.
That was pretty solid.
Hit it.
[MEAT WAVE, "LEOPARD PRINT JET SKI"]
You just heard "Leopard Skin Jet Ski" by Meat Wave. This is Lost in the Stacks. And our show today is called three more themes. We did this once before, just before Christmas. And I thought on July 26, we are just under the wire for a Christmas in July episode.
Yeah, I dig it.
And once again, each of us will pitch an idea for a potential show. And once again, I'm going first.
It just seems appropriate.
So my idea brings together a few ideas that we've discussed in some other shows like slow librarianship, the library attrition tracker, the idea library curriculum, AI in the classroom, low morale.
Getting a whole negative vibe. CHARLIE BENNETT: Well, I'm honestly getting flashes of these shows. I'm really enjoying remembering them.
I'm good for a dig in the archives. But anyway, my theme is librarians saying no. And I was inspired by an article that came out last year in In the Library with the Lead Pipe, a librarian who said, I think it's time for us to say no to instruction sometimes. And so they did a research study because there were times that they were asked to do instruction that they felt didn't really directly serve the students and wanted to find out if they were alone.
So I was thinking about, what do we tend to say no to? And I thought, sometimes we say no to each other. So we turn down committee positions, things like that.
That's a real peer-to-peer no. MARLEE GIVENS: Peer-to-peer no, yeah. And I think sometimes, we say no to our users. And sometimes, it's a "no, but." We're directing them towards something else. And that's what this article was about.
Yeah, because librarians have a hard time saying no to a lot of things because we like being all things to all of our users.
We like being of service.
Exactly.
Exactly. I was wondering what the two of you have said no to lately.
Everything.
Tell me more.
Well, I think you were in the meeting, the department meeting, where I said I'm actually making it a point this summer to reduce my time utilization, reduce my-- I want to say investment, but that's not the word-- my participation in outside projects, focus on particular things, especially stuff that's articulated in my job description. And luckily, I got a thumbs up from our boss on that. So I'm living my truth of "no, not anymore." I'm-- not any more work than what I have now.
I've got to figure this out.
Have you literally said no to something that somebody asked you to do?
Yes. You know what? No, I have not literally said no because what I said was, I would prefer not to be included on this. So I didn't say no. But I think that's effectively no.
But that's--
It's more passive-friendly, not passive-aggressive-- passive-friendly now.
Gentle.
Yes. Yes. What about you, Fred?
Like, I think, both of you and a lot of folks at the Georgia Tech Library, my job description has-- you know those houses that you see where someone just adds on just randomly and without any sort of architectural vision, and then the house just extends into the backyard?
We should have a room here and a room there.
I feel like that happens with my job description and has happened with my job description. So there's one thing that I-- one part of that house that I got to chop off lately was management of a physical space in the Georgia Tech Library, which was the Dissertation Defense Room, which fell to me I'm not even sure how. And it's probably not interesting how. But I was the manager of it.
I think it is interesting how-- simply for one reason, it's so stupid. The reason that you are in charge or were in charge of the Dissertation Defense Room is because part of your job was cataloging theses and dissertations-- or not even cataloging, ingesting theses and dissertations.
And to get into the-- there was someone in charge of it. And they needed to step away. And so someone said, oh, he's doing theses and dissertations. Hey, will you do it? And like a fool. I said, yes, because I'm a librarian and I want to say yes.
Well, there's also sometimes not a very clear way to declare something outside of your job description when it says "other duties as required."
Right. And this was an assistant dean or associate dean-- I can't remember-- that said, hey, will you do this? And I just assumed that's a duty as required. So I'll say yes. Why not add another shed to the backyard of my job description?
So I'm curious, what's the consequence of saying no? Does it just get quietly dropped or does it just get shuffled down the line to someone else?
What an excellent question.
That is a good question. I'm guessing that in the case of Fred--
Someone in another department had to say yes for me to be able to say no.
Exactly. Exactly. It does get kicked down the road. One of the consequences of being good at something is that you're asked to do more things.
One of the consequences of being present is that you are asked--
That's also true. That's also true.
I'm going to actually dig a little bit into the pitch now. What's the difference between-- or what's the extra thing between people just learning not to overcommit themselves and to say no to librarians, academic librarians, learning to say no?
Well, I think that to me, it's that we are-- we're in a service industry. We have the service mindset. And we have this long history of being subservient, polite people who will do things. And we get-- can get taken advantage of. The whole point of this article was that a lot of times, we're invited into someone else's classroom. And then we, essentially, are their babysitter.
And so things like that-- it's-- we need to reclaim our authority in those situations and start saying yes to things where we have some agency. But we have to face the reality that hiring is not keeping up. There was a quote-- well, speaking of slow librarianship, Meredith Farkas-- in one of her articles, she described reference librarians in her department that are all supposed to do the same basic liaison work.
But some of them have taken on additional specialties, like OERs and learning assessment and copyright and Dissertation Defense Room, and so on. And then an Inside Higher Ed article from last year looked at some statistics. And between 2012 and 2021, full-time academic library staffing decreased by 20%. And in that same time, full-time librarian positions decreased by 9.6%. But the demand has remained steady. And this goes back to the Library Attrition Tracker.
The demand has remained steady, even though the Georgia Tech Library-- the number of people employed has gone down over time and not quite come back up.
It also goes back to capitalism under neoliberal rule.
Exactly. So I'm hoping that in the near future, I can learn a little bit more from the next generation coming up that they-- I think they're a little bit better at claiming their time-- I'm hoping. CHARLIE BENNETT: Taking back my time. This is Lost in the Stacks. We'll be back with another theme after a music set. And you can file this set under HD 4904.25.A74. CHARLIE BENNETT: Can you, though?
[WALL OF VOODOO, "FULL OF TENSION"]
[ALLYSON SECONDS, "BAG OF KITTENS"]
That was "Bag of Kittens" by Allyson Seconds and, before that, "Full of Tension" by Wall of Voodoo, songs that together, as a set, represent work-life balance.
Very nicely done.
[ROCK MUSIC]
This is Lost in the Stacks. Today's show is called "Three More Themes." From each show host, we have a short personal pitch for a show theme.
And Charlie, you're up.
Oddly enough, mine fits yours perfectly without being the same at all. I recently went to the Austin Public Library. Have you all been to the Austin Public Library?
Nope.
I have not.
It is a blast. It's a fairly new building. I think it's only about six, seven years old, five floors. Top floor is an open Clough Information Commons style, wooden floor, local plants, LEED style natural space. There's the-- some kind of Innovation Lab where you can play with new technology, record a podcast. The children's area is divided into kids and teens. So the teens have a experimental place all to themselves. There's a giant chess board in the middle of the lobby of the kids area.
So you can play chess with your children or literally with your children if one of them wants to be a pawn and you move them around, which happened. There's a restaurant that's closed right now. But there's a restaurant in the first floor. There are classes of all kinds in the bottom lobby. It's just so much stuff. There's even a gift shop at the front. I loved it. It's beautiful. We went twice because it's a great place to just be. But it also made me think, wait a minute, what has happened?
What have we said yes to? And I'm framing that for you, Marlee, a little bit because I've also been to the New York Public Library, if you all have been there.
I have. I finally went. CHARLIE BENNETT: There's no restaurant. There's no play area. There aren't any things to mess around with. It's a public research library. That is what that was for. Well, that main branch, yes.
So at some point in the American project, we started saying, hey, libraries should have everything in them. We should let people enjoy themselves when they come in there. It should be fun for the whole family. And we should check out bicycles. And we should check out seeds, heirloom seeds.
We are continuing Marlee's segment because this is libraries saying, yes, this-- we're filling the gaps because we're afraid to say no to what the community needs. CHARLIE BENNETT: Now, there's got to be something about those gaps. There's something very important in the gaps, much like what happens between panels in a comic book that are called the gutters.
Well, in the gutter of New York Public Library to Austin Public Library is some kind of change in how we think of a cultural institution like the library and how we think of community centers and how we think about investment in social structure and social infrastructure. I feel like the marvelous Austin Public Library is a symbol of the refusal by a generation of America to replicate the investment in them that they received when they were young.
That is to say, I think the Austin Public Library is a sign that the boomers have ruined America by pulling the ladder up behind them, saying, we don't need to put the money into the country like you put the money into us post-war. Well, not knowing anything about-- really, not knowing anything about the Austin Public Library or not very much about the New York Public Library, either, because I've not visited either one, there's not just a difference in who initiated these things.
But there's also the time between-- and I know you're talking about that. What did we feel about libraries back in the 1800s, when the New York Public Library was built-- I don't know how old it is, really-- versus this, which sounds like it's a fairly new building or recently renovated--
Absolutely. And it's a community center with a library tossed through it.
Right. And so I don't know if something happened in Austin that maybe also happened at Georgia Tech, where we had our library completely gutted and renovated and all of the books taken out and all of the spaces redesigned for that kind of either convivial and collaborative or that "alone together" quiet study space. We decided that was what we needed.
I think so. And that "we" is doing a lot of work to say, no, that was a choice. It wasn't inflicted upon us. But the environment of America that makes people think the library, the last free place, should have stuff in it that people can check out, like tools, and it should have tax forms there and it should-- there's some kind of indicator built into those design choices that are contemporary that come from some removal of other community resources. And that's what I want to dig into.
I was trying to figure out what the negative part is and if this was negative at all. But now I think I see. The negative is the community. It's the society, right? Society has stopped providing those kinds of things elsewhere. And so it falls to the library. This is where that "vocational awe" article started out.
Explain vocational awe real quick for people who--
Well, the vocational awe article starts off with public librarians administering Narcan. CHARLIE BENNETT: The overdose drug. MARLEE GIVENS: Exactly-- and taking on more of a social worker role, emotional support role.
And Fobazi Ettarh who-- has done a lot-- have done more with that since writing that initial article, has done more research on that.
Yes. Don't ask me about it. CHARLIE BENNETT: Just acknowledge it. But the idea is that we are-- our profession is so elevated that we have to do whatever it takes to uphold our profession. That's vocational awe. CHARLIE BENNETT: Simultaneously being in danger because vocational awe is what lets people say, I don't make a lot of money, but I am part of-- I'm part of this-- the continuation of civilization.
So let me ask you, Charlie.
Yes?
If we could flip a switch and suddenly all the community and society needs were filled by their proper channels and libraries--
Proper, idealistically proper channels.
--the library didn't have to fill the gap-- in other words, they're filled elsewhere-- would our libraries all look like the New York Public Library? CHARLIE BENNETT: That's a good question. So the flip switching-- no, the switch flipping-- as you say, that's just to say, what if we change it all back at once? But the buildings will still exist. It's not that I think it's wrong that the library is like that.
It's that I think this rather lovely thing, this center for community stuffed with a variety of things that is a library and has very little to do with what libraries were for if you start with the Benjamin Franklin subscriber library and go to the New York Public Library and then up into my youth, when I was in elementary school, the way that libraries were positioned-- in there is some indication of a change in our attitude toward spaces that are accessible even
without the purchase of goods or services, spaces that are designed to bring a community together in leisure or unnecessary activities, a rejection of efficiency as the primary purpose of anything. And the library has circled the wagons. The library is Valhalla surrounded by trolls and giants. And we've been knocking them back as well as we can for a while. But now we're the last spot where you can just come in. You don't have to have anything else. You can just come in with yourself.
But they're coming for it, they being folks who believe in private enterprise as the most efficient distributor of goods and services and knowledge and information and all those other things. We need to start asking our funders for funds to defend us from trolls and orcs.
I want a big hammer. You are listening to Lost in the Stacks. And we'll have one more theme for you. It probably won't be nearly as dramatic on the left side.
I can guarantee you it's not going to be. CHARLIE BENNETT: Thank you, Fred.
[TELEVISION, "FRICTION"]
Hey. This is Damian from OK Go.
[OK GO, "WTF?"]
And you are listening to Lost in the Stacks on WREK Atlanta.
[OK GO, "WTF?"]
Today's show is called "Three More Themes." And this is where I read an article excerpt or a carefully crafted monologue to counterpoint today's theme in what we call the Amen Break, except I'm not going to do that today because I can't prepare for whatever we're going to say and have something ready to go. What I am going to do is I'm going to read you the last line of the book that I finished this morning after 20 hours of audio book listening on the way into work.
"Radio, as the symbol of the public sphere and national voice and supported by higher education's dedication to the pursuit of knowledge, remains the site of struggle over the sound of America." That was by Katherine Rye Jewell. It's the end of her book, Live From the Underground-- A History of College Radio, published last year by UNC Press. And you all can figure out why that seemed fitting to say right now. And file this set under "Can it just go easy on me, please? Can we just be OK?
Can you just be calm?"
It'll be fine.
[GONG SOUNDING]
New lamps for old.
Alms for the poor.
Nice lady, nice gentleman, buy my delicious shish kebab.
[THE MOLECULES, "SUNNY DAY"]
You just heard "Sunny Day" by The Molecules and, before that, "Jelly Dancer"-- is that "Dancer"-- by Bruce Haack and Esther Nelson. Those are two songs showing very different strategies applied to the exact same resources, voice and minimal instrumentation, with very different results that actually seem kind of the same.
Nicely done.
Thanks, dude.
Y'all are doing great.
[ROCK MUSIC]
This is Lost in the Stacks. And today's show is called "Three Themes"-- "Three More Themes."
"Three More Themes"-- oh, typo.
Each host is delivering a pitch for a potential episode or series on a particular personal theme.
And Fred, it's your turn.
It is my turn. And just to let you know, it is brutally hot in the studio. And I'm burning up. So I hope it doesn't affect--
We're all starting to melt.
I hope it doesn't affect the quality-- the high quality of the content.
The counter is nice and cool--
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
That can really actually bring some good heat transfer there.
So my thought is that we could talk a little bit about when academic libraries host job candidates for an interview day.
Why is that on your mind, Fred?
Actually, we've been hiring quite a bit here. And I've been on some search committees. And folks listening that may not be familiar with the academic library hiring process may be interested to find out that it's probably different from a typical corporate job interview process.
I know that's your pitch. But we did just hear a chunk of information from Cody Turner here.
That's right. We've got a guest in-- that dropped in, Cody, former director here at WREK, that says that corporate job interviews are pretty extensive, as extensive as academic ones.
Well I was going to say, they're getting pretty academic. I'm getting a lot take-home assignments, getting a lot of homework--
Presentations.
--doing a lot of presentations.
So what happens at Georgia Tech when we have a librarian candidate in? And maybe this is similar to other academic libraries.
I hope so.
I'm not even talking about the interview process, like selecting which candidate. I'm just talking about when we finally selected one to come in to interview for the position, they have to give a presentation on a topic that's been assigned to them, sort of like take-home homework, Cody. They've got to spend a whole day on campus. Often, they've got to come the night before and meet with someone to have dinner with that's on the search committee or maybe the supervisor or something like that.
So they come the night before, have dinner. Then the next day, they get up. They give a presentation to the library. They come and meet with the search committee, which is four or five people. They meet with their supervisor one-on-one. They meet with the academic leadership of the library, which is three or four associate deans. They meet with the dean of the library. They meet with human resources.
They meet with representatives of the library faculty review committee.
Right. They meet with the department. It's a whole day for a-- this is a librarian position. This is not president or CEO of a company. We're asking people to go through a grind of a whole day.
I think this is a hangover from when an academic position, a faculty position, tenure or non-tenure, a faculty position was a very strong, solid, long-term career option with a pension at the end and with-- like it's a state job. Sometimes with universities and the university system of Georgia, it is a prize if you look at what it was in, say, the '60s. And so you really had to "earn it," whereas now it feels a little bit like, isn't this just a job?
It does. It does. I want to flip this on its head and look at it from the candidates' perspective. And I know that's what you're doing. But I've started to think about job openings and applying for jobs and everything is much more of a two-way street. And it's much more like going on a blind date. If you are trying to decide, do I want to come to this place, I want to meet--
Everybody.
I want to meet a good-- at least a good variety of people. I want to get a sense of, are the-- is the leadership team nuts or is the dean going to talk to me about Dancing with the Stars? That has happened in the past. CHARLIE BENNETT: Does the organization seem to have all the resources that it needs to support me? And really, who am I going to be working with-- and get a chance to meet the department. Maybe it's more of a stretch to meet the HR director or meet the faculty review committee.
That's become more like a tradition, I think.
Well, that's part of the giving information about the job. The idea is that you give a quick hit on, this is how you'll be treated as a worker. This is how you'll be treated as a reviewable faculty member. This is how you'll be treated as a peer-reviewed person.
I decided not to apply for a job when the job posting itself was five pages, printed out. It was a PDF job posting. And I was like, I don't think I want to work for this place. But I think that that interview day can tell me a lot of the same things, like do I actually want to come here or not?
So you think it's a benefit to the candidates?
I think it can be. And I think on our side, a lot of it's just so political.
I think so, too. I think the whole, well, we've got to meet with all of these people because, well, when one or two groups get to meet with a candidate, then other groups say, oh, I need to meet with the candidate, too. And then the day grows and grows and grows. And eventually, we have to have them-- we have to have a lunch break in the middle. And that's another meeting because a couple of other librarians go to lunch with us.
Well, you can't let someone just wander off and have time to themselves.
[LAUGHING]
So I wonder then, based on that input, Marlee, since we've got Cody here, who has recently been in the job hunting field in the corporate arena, would you appreciate longer time spent at the-- whatever corporate entity you're applying to get to know them, blind date style?
In theory, yes. The struggle that I have is you're applying to a lot of places. And so the idea that you would do this on a repeated basis--
Of course. Then you have that as a obligation to your time.
Not only an-- yes. An obligation to your time is like, I'm going to spend the day and go talk to this place. But also, I'm going to spend all of this mental energy creating a presentation for this particular idea and then never hear from them again. It's crazy how similar it is to blind dating where a lot of times, it's just-- you meet up. And then you just make the decision in your head just like, that didn't really work out. And then you never hear from each other again.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Thanks for dinner. Yes, and thanks for dinner. Thanks for the nice PowerPoint that we're going to use for our campaign.
That does happen at Georgia Tech and, I think, other academic libraries. You come in. You interview. You don't hear anything back for weeks.
And you have to just sit in it for a while because it's higher education, Fred. This is Lost in the Stacks. It's time for some music.
And we're going to file this set under Z 682.4.C63P74. What have you loaded for me, Charlie? Let's see.
[XTC, "BURNING WITH OPTIMISM'S FLAMES"]
[NEIL YOUNG, "ARE YOU READY FOR THE COUNTRY?"]
That was music that Charlie picked out for me. That was "Are You Ready For the Country?" by Neil Young and, before that, "Burning with Optimism's Flames" by XTC. And that definitely fits because I am going to be ready to go to the country once I finish burning all of my optimism's flames in my heart.
So you're ready right now?
I'm ready. Let's go.
[ROCK MUSIC]
Today's show is called "Three More Themes." And you have heard three starter pitches for Lost in the Stacks episodes.
And I think they all-- oh, dear. There's been an event in the studio. But it's OK, everybody. I think they all fit for show themes because they all have a question, a hook question in them. So why do we do this?
[LAUGHING]
Why do we do this, the saying yes to everything? Why did this happen? And then finally, why do we do this? So those are all show themes, right?
And they were all related. That's a good point. I didn't see that going in.
I can't believe that that's what we decided to do. Hit it.
[TELEVISION, "FRICTION"]
[WHISTLE BLOWING]
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
MARLEE GIVENS: Lost In the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens. CHARLIE BENNETT: Legal counsel and-- what is this-- Bruce Haack's old synthesizer-- how do you get a hold of that-- were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia.
Special thanks to everyone who has ever pitched a show topic to us. And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
Our web page is library.gatech.e du/lostinthestacks, where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed, and a web form if you want to get in touch with us.
On next week's show-- well, this week was a surprise pivot. And now I'm nervous to say anything about next week.
Lots of things happen all the time, it turns out.
Well, it's time for our last song today. And since all the songs were pulled randomly from our automation system here at WREK, I thought I would give the last one to Cody Turner, who used to be the station manager here at WREK.
And now just shows up sometimes to get a feel for the studio once again.
And this song was literally the only one I could remember playing back in the day.
10 years ago.
10 years ago.
So this song perfectly sums up today's show. It's called "I'll Form the Head" by MC Frontalot-- trying to read my writing here.
I remember MC Frontalot.
MC Frontalot right here, Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everybody.
[MC FRONTALOT, "I'LL FORM THE HEAD"]