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(SINGING) Little boxes in the archive, little boxes made by Hollinger. Little boxes in the archives, little boxes all the same. There's a gray one and a gray one and a gray one and a gray one. And they're all made out of cardboard and they all are acid-free.
You are listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the Research Library rock and roll radio show. I'm Charlie Bennett in the studio with Alex Mcghee, Marlee Givens and Fred Rascoe. It's the whole crew. Each week on Lost in the Stacks, we pick a theme, and then use it to create a mix of music and library talk. Whichever you tune in for, we hope you dig it. MARLEE GIVENS: And our show today is called, "Are you the gatekeeper? Disability and the archival profession."
Always a good sign when there's a Ghostbuster reference out the gate.
Along with bringing Rick Moranis and Sigourney Weaver to mind, our title references the gatekeeping that can happen in the archival profession when it comes to disability.
Today we are talking to an archivist from MIT who is furthering the discussion about disability and accessibility for archivists in the field.
Our songs today are about struggle and activism, finding your place, and how disabilities can alter experiences and expectations. Making experiences inclusive for everyone requires librarians and archivists to get moving, moving, moving.
Can you do the Ian MacKaye impression there?
No.
It's more like moving. No.
OK, Marlee refuses.
Keep going.
And not sitting around in the waiting room. I cannot believe we're going to play this song. This is so great. So that's our first song, "Waiting Room" by Fugazi , right here on Lost in the Stacks.
Squee.
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That was "Waiting Room" by Fugazi. Our show today is called, "Are you the gatekeeper?" And our guest is Chris Tanguay.
Chris is a processing archivist at the MIT Libraries Department of Distinctive Collections and part of the group that founded the accessibility and disability section of the Society for American Archivists. CHARLIE BENNETT: And that is notable because the SAA has been retiring sections and not really creating new ones. We asked Chris how they became part of the section's founding.
I came in after some of the initial discussions had started. They had put out a call for people interested in signing on to potentially volunteer. And I got involved at that stage. I think it came out of the creation of some guidelines for accessible archives. Early discussions, there was a lot of talk back and forth about what should the section's name be.
I'm super excited that my suggestion was the one that got chosen out of a couple different iterations of the accessibility and disability section. There were different versions of it. And the purpose of the section was to talk about both accessibility for archives, in terms of staff and also patrons, and also just to talk about what it's like to be a disabled archivist and to deal with disability in the workplace.
So a lot of early work came out of some guidelines that some of the founders-- some other founders of the group-- Lydia Tang and Michelle Ganz-- worked on, like the-- "Archivist at Home" I think was an early document which outlined a lot of potential remote work for archivists, particularly early in the pandemic. And we did a lot of work around creating some suggestions for making jobs more accessible and the hiring process more equitable for people with disabilities.
So there was a lot of, I think, excitement and effort put towards creating documents to help people. And it has been a fairly active group for SAA. Particularly, there are a lot of groups now that are winding down because it's harder to find people who will step up to leadership and maintain an active community with a lot of information sharing. CHARLIE BENNETT: Some of our listeners might not be familiar with the terminology of section within an association.
Can you talk about why that was appealing, the idea of starting a section or leading a section in an association? Yeah, so with the section, it's an opportunity to have more discussion that's more focused, do more group projects, really connect with people with that interest or life experience. I mean, depending on the section, there are things that focus on different topics or different affinities and experiences.
It opens up the opportunity to have some really good conversations and getting to network with other archivists in similar situations and produce content that could help people. We were reading articles and even ended up proposing a book based on that just to share information. And I feel like I learn a lot from my colleagues in the section.
I feel like the structure of the section just allows for a more-- it's more robust than a discussion group, right? It's like you're actually meeting with people regularly and coming up with projects or working groups that can kind of accomplish bigger things that the larger organization, Society of American Archivists, or other archivists can benefit from.
Was there something in your own experience with archives that made you think this is a section that needs to be created in our professional organization? Was there some touch-point that really sparked that idea?
Yeah, so as someone who has really, I think, dealt with a lot of anxiety and depression, I've known that that has really affected me in my career. I know that it's affected other people a lot. And I just had a lot of interest in advocating in that area. There was a job ad at one point where it was talking about that you shouldn't bring little black clouds to work. Things like that just get under my skin a little bit.
Hold on, the job announcement said, don't bring little black clouds to work?
Yep
Is that legal?
I don't know. A lot of my interest is in the job advocacy area. But I've definitely had people ask me questions in interviews where it touches on ableism and potentially hitting those illegal topics when it comes to things like mental health. And I think it's really important to talk about those things and advocate in the workplace for more discussion in that area because the only way you can fight the stigma is to talk about it.
I feel like disability in archives has gotten more and better attention than disability in libraries. Do you all feel that way? And do you have a theory as to why disability in archives is a richer topic or a more compelling topic?
It's interesting because I feel like there's actually been more research and writing about libraries than in archives, except for maybe more recently. I think there has been more work being done in terms of discussing the experience of disability, at least on the public-facing side.
You probably do have a little bit more discussion happening around being able to provide access to people who can't travel or have difficulty using materials that are unique, whereas there are a lot of existing frameworks in place for providing access in libraries. Maybe it's being discussed more in archives, but there's less historically in terms of discussion.
Interesting.
One of the things that comes up a lot is the ubiquity of the job advertisements for archives and being able to lift 40-pound boxes. And that has been the standard, that you have to be able to do that. And people haven't been pushing back about it as much, I think, even though you really don't have to be able to lift 40-pound boxes to do your job. I mean, in some situations, you might have to. But I think, for most places, there are ways of working around it.
The people aren't putting like large boxes on top shelves where they become harder to move because even some small adjustments, like not putting heavy, large things on high shelves and putting them more waist height makes a big difference in terms of being able to maneuver with materials because I did go through a period of time where I had a lifting restriction. And it was a lot of maneuvering things onto carts without actually having to pick them up. There were workarounds.
This is Lost in the Stacks. Our guest is Chris Tanguay, processing archivist at MIT Libraries. We'll be back with more about boxes, disability, and archives after a music set. File this set under LC4019.T46.
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That was "She's Lost Control" by Joy Division and before that, "Ellen West" by Throwing Muses, songs about recognizing how disabilities alter experiences with things many of us take for granted.
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This is Lost in the Stacks. And today's show is called, "Are you the gatekeeper?" We're speaking with archivist Chris Tanguay about disability and the archival profession.
I know we're going to be talking about a chapter that you contributed to a book, and I know that your chapter starts with the phrase, "Are you the gatekeeper?" Do you feel like this particular phrase about being able to lift 40 pounds-- do you have any information on how many people were kept out, whether actually kept out or they just decided not to apply because they saw that?
Unfortunately, I don't have specifics on whether or not people specifically didn't apply to certain jobs. There's a lot of anecdotal stories about people who either don't apply to things because they don't feel like they meet 100% of the requirements. For example, there's been a couple of studies that have shown like women and minorities are less likely to apply to things unless they feel like they meet 100% of the requirements.
In doing research for this, I also found writing where people had explained their experience of feeling like they weren't welcome in certain places. One particular requirement that can really throw people is for licenses, specifically driver's licenses, because you may not actually need to be able to drive. They may just be looking for someone who can reliably get to work. If your job isn't like driving a van, maybe you don't need that driver's license.
There are medical conditions where maybe you can't drive. So that keeps people out of even applying. The work I did was specifically looking at a sample of job ads to see what kinds of requirements there were. And 28% of jobs had requirements specific to lifting of the positions we looked at. Most of those jobs that required them are the ones that people starting off in the field are going to be moving into.
So even though that's not a huge amount percentage-wise, that's still a lot of jobs in what is a pretty competitive field.
Everything you're talking about is making me realize, once again, that I've not been on the job market in a very long time, that I have not had to suffer these particular indignities. And when I've been on search committees here at Georgia Tech, we've put a lot-- the idea that there's a job posting that also says don't be grumpy in a cutesy way or having a driver's license, which seems to me to be completely out of bounds. But of course, it's not because there it is.
This is probably an issue that, as you get older, and more established in a job, and don't have to go get another job, you start to lose sight of because that's where I am at this point.
Yeah, and there's certain things that may seem less ableist or problematic. Like the example I love to use, because we sometimes use it in our jobs, is the idea of tolerating ambiguity. It's a problem for a number of reasons, partially because it could mean that we don't have a good idea of what the job is.
I hate that.
Yeah, there are a lot of people who want more stability in ambiguity. Specifically, it comes up in writings, I think, a lot about neurodiversity and autism. That's something that people see and don't really want to deal with. So it may on its face seem less problematic. But it can put people off.
So as you have attempted to address some of these issues in your own place of work, because that's where you have control, what have been the positive results or any?
So unfortunately, I think there are some things that continue to be posted in ads. We're still very much working through-- I had been on a group in the libraries called the Committee for the Promotion of Diversity and Inclusion. And on that committee, we made some suggestions for more inclusive hiring practices. They're being worked out with HR now. But hopefully, all of the search committees will have those-- a big thing has been that-- and this may be partially because of the pandemic as well.
But now, candidates have the opportunity to have lunch on their own. They don't have to go to lunch with the committee, which can also be a big thing for people. I think some of the interview days have been shortened also as well. I mean, I think having to readjust the way we work because of the pandemic has helped a lot with that, where we're not always bringing people on site. Sometimes, we're just doing Zoom interviews.
With everything, I think there's still a lot of negotiation that has to happen. And there's still a lot of ways that we can improve things. The tolerating ambiguity still appears in all of our apps. Well, not maybe not all of them, but some of them. There's always room to improve.
Some of the changes that you're talking about trying to implement at MIT, is that going to be able to translate profession-wide via your involvement with the Society of American Archivists section that you're starting? Is that something you can develop-- your group can develop some sort of professional-wide standards?
Yeah, so we've written-- the section, which-- I've rolled off the section, to be clear. But the section had written some articles about different ways of improving things. And it's been exciting to see it being cited elsewhere. Recently, there was-- it's being reviewed, but guidelines for internships. And it's citing some of the suggestions from the accessibility and disability section on creating a more inclusive workplace.
So I'm hoping the more people are talking about it, the more people see it, the more it goes forward. And fortunately, I feel like-- and hopefully, there will be some long-lasting change from it.
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks. And we'll hear more from Chris Tanguay on the left side of the hour.
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Hi, I'm Morna Gerard from Georgia State University Special Collections and Archives. You're listening to WREK Atlanta. And this is Lost in the Stacks, the one and only research library rock and roll radio show, which is fine. I'm an archivist. I don't make judgments.
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Our show today is, "Are you the gatekeeper?" And we're talking about disability in the archival profession. Our title comes from a chapter in a book that will be published this summer by Litwin Books and Library Juice press. The book, Preserving Disability, was edited by Lydia Tang and past Lost in the Stacks guest Gracen Brilmyer. The chapter written by today's guest, Chris Tanguay and Ann Abney, is called, "Are you the gatekeeper?
Job advertisements as barriers for employment for disabled archivists." We asked Chris about a quote they'd mentioned from the start of their chapter.
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I actually started the chapter with a quote from Emily Calhoun Wilson, who wrote her master's thesis for Emory University in 1962 on the employment of physically handicapped persons as professional librarians in southern colleges and universities. In her thesis, she asked libraries what categories of physically handicapped persons would you consider employing as professional librarians? 8% of respondents said they wouldn't even consider hiring people with disabilities.
Two of the respondents had policies against hiring people with disabilities, which today those policies aren't legal. But there's still problems with people with disabilities finding employment successfully. A quarter of adults have disability. And still, a recent report out of the New England Archivists found that people with disabilities tended to take a lot longer to find jobs.
File this set under KF3469.C36.
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CHARLIE BENNETT: That was "Mad World" by Curt Smith and Diva Smith. And we started with "Monument" by Myra. Those are songs about struggle and activism in a world not built to accommodate everyone.
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This is Lost in the Stacks. And our show today is an interview with Chris Tanguay, processing archivist at MIT Libraries. We've been talking about Chris's research into disability and their work with the accessibility and disability section of the Society for American Archivists.
Is it frustrating at all that it's just suggestions, that it's guidelines, that it can't be enforced or-- you can't pass a law and handle things? Or is that kind of freeing, that you don't have to be precise and have it be language that will stand up to-- I don't know-- challenges?
Well, I think, with a lot of things, perception changes over time. And there is always like the ADA. And there are legal protections in place. I think just getting people to realize, hey, words matter and that thinking more about like, well, what are we asking of people? What do we expect?
Some of the prescriptions are things like not having an exhaustive list of preferred qualities that may put people off from applying or feeling like they're not qualified, when you're just asking for things that would be nice to have, but that you don't actually need. I think a lot of it is really in trying to change how people think more so than these are the words you need to use because those will change. Maybe something that's OK now is not in the future.
Or even, some of those things are so subtle that it's harder to make a prescription for qualifications that are actually duty-based and ability-based, rather than asking for personality traits. You don't really need someone to be necessarily enthusiastic about something. You just need them to be able to do it. CHARLIE BENNETT: I'm put in mind of-- so I had to do research on a musician and a record they released in the early '90s when they were 40.
And a lot of that research showed that everyone could not stop talking about how this person was 40 and released a-- without anybody declaring, hey, we're going to stop thinking of 40 as the end of your career, that's so obviously different now. A lot of changes, a lot of examples, a lot of pushback that was never official, and also, obviously, the Rolling Stones have led the way on that one.
But it is really surprising to me to recognize the long change in attitude and perceptions with something as simple as age and then to hope that is happening on these sort of details that you're-- Yeah, and I feel like there are a lot of aspects of thinking about hiring that really apply not just to people with disabilities, but other minoritized groups. I mean, particularly, I think a lot of accommodations made for disability also help people as they age as well.
And one of those things I like to remind people is disability is-- you never know. Things can very quickly change. And so that's something to keep in mind. Even if you're able to do something now, maybe in the future, that's not the case. I had a boss at one point who just was really fixated on the ability to lift. And that quickly changed when she threw out her back. Suddenly, it wasn't as important when it wasn't easy for her to do. So [INAUDIBLE] do open their minds up to more of this.
So a lot of what we've been talking about, I think, is part of what's in your chapter, that you co-wrote with Ann Abney, right?
Ann Abney, yes.
And I love the chapter name because it is a Ghostbusters reference, right?
Yeah, it is. It is.
So can you tell us the full name of the chapter?
Right. Yeah, so it is "Are you the gatekeepers to employment for disabled archivists?"
Yeah, and so I guess, obviously, we've been talking about all of these kinds of issues that come up in our archival, but also library, job advertisements. And I guess for writing this chapter, the big takeaway for you-- what are you hoping that folks walk away from your article or your chapter with?
So I'm hoping people realize the power of language and how the words they use matter because-- difference. And looking at some of the other research that was done, one of the interesting things was about specifically the Equal Employment Opportunity statements, where, in some ads, you have the job advertisement that's the ideal. And then you have the EO statement that-- all the exceptions. So one's phrase that the applicant and the other one is like speaking to a different person.
They're not working in harmony. And it's definitely almost othering certain candidates. So those aspects may stand out. But just thinking about, well, what do we actually need and also thinking about the job ad-- is setting you up for creating a better framing for actually the search itself, for judging candidates and assessing them when you have very clear requirements that aren't subjective-- things like personality traits. Can this person do this job? Yes/no?
That's your role in creating more inclusive hiring. So that's the framework on which it all rests.
Just as archivists, we deal with description and we often are reminded that the language-- the words we use to describe things really matter. And it's OK to go back and change things as we learn, and grow, and realize that there are better ways to have these conversations and make these decisions. So I think that's what I want to leave us with, yeah. Chris, thank you so much for joining us today. CHRIS TANGUAY: Thanks for having me. This is Lost in the Stacks.
And you've been listening to our interview with Chris Tanguay, processing archivist with MIT Libraries Department of Distinctive Collections.
And you can file this set under PN6728.G476G46.
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"I Just Wasn't Made for These Times" by the Beach Boys and before that "Little Rosa" by Letters to Cleo, songs about feeling like you are not welcomed and finding your place.
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Today's show is called "Are you the gatekeeper?" And our interview was with archivist Chris Tanguay about disability and the archival profession.
Chris's recent publication focuses on how the language in job postings for archivists can act as a barrier to job seekers with disabilities, whether through the near-ubiquitous box-lifting requirement or a vague insistence on a good attitude.
In a job listing, the implicit idea in these requirements is the indefensible demand that a job applicant be free of physical and cognitive disability. CHARLIE BENNETT: And if a gatekeeper says that job applicants should be free of disability to be considered for employment, then they have declared that 25% of Americans with a disability of some kind, visible or invisible, unfit for hiring.
I think we should probably push that gatekeeper to the side, and then knock down the gate, and then set it on fire.
I'm here for it. With that, let's roll the credits.
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MARLEE GIVENS: Lost in the Stacks is a collaboration between WREK Atlanta and the Georgia Tech Library, written and produced by Alex Mcghee, Charlie Bennett, Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
Legal counsel and a machine that can lift 40 pounds were provided by the Burrus Intellectual Property Law Group in Atlanta, Georgia.
It was such a simple solution. I don't know why we didn't think about it before. Special Thanks to Chris for being on the show, to the SAA Accessibility and Disability section-- that's really hard to say-- for the work they do. And thanks, as always, to each and every one of you for listening.
Our web page is library.gatech.e du/lostinthestacks, where you'll find our most recent episode, a link to our podcast feed, and a web form if you want to get in touch with us. Our episode next week is about a spreadsheet that Fred calls an attrition tracker, which I hope we will be able to make optimistic somehow.
No chance. Just kidding. Time for our last song. Time for our last song today. Almost all of our songs today were specially requested by our guest, Chris, including this last one. They mentioned in the interview that the disabled community is a community that literally anyone might join at any time. So let's close with a song about crossing over that line with recording engineering services provided by the late Steve Albini.
This is "Where is My Mind" by The Pixies, right here on Lost in the Stacks. Have a great weekend, everybody.
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