132: 3x DFAC Pro World Champion David Kaye (Part 2)

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Welcome back to the Longevity Muscle Podcast. I'm Kenny, your host, and today we are joined by six-time British champion and three-time DFAC world champion, David Kaye. For those of you who may not know, we interviewed David on the podcast back in November of 2022. That's episode 60. So if you haven't listened to that, you will definitely want to check that episode out as well.

In this specific episode, we discuss some of the politics around competitive natural bodybuilding, as well as who David considers to be the greatest natural bodybuilder of all time. Not only that, but we dive more into some of the details around his training. So without further ado, let's get right into it. Enjoy. I'm really good, Kenny. Yeah, busy, busy man these days. Now fully fledged lawyer. So life is hectic, but you know, it's exciting. It's a new challenge for me.

I think the last time I spoke to you, I was still studying. So pretty much still in the infancy of my career. You know, I mean, it's a long career progression.

It's another challenge, and it's what I needed to see me through to my retirement days. Yes, yes. Yeah, last time we spoke, I think you were just taking the exam, or had you just finished it?

Yeah, I think I was about halfway through my degree, to be honest, last time we spoke. So, you know, there's been a lot of advancement since then, but... like you say i'm now out of training i'm out of exams out of university i'm now in practice so you just right back to the bottom again you know we're just starting but that's cool you know what i mean because like

The journey and the challenge, as cliche as it sounds, you always need a purpose. You need something to work towards. What better than starting something new and starting at the bottom again? you're used to that i'm sure from well yeah maybe not used to it but you've experienced that with competing and bodybuilding and yeah it's exactly it's exactly the same thing you know i would actually say

The most fun I had in bodybuilding was probably the first half of my career because that's when you're climbing and that's when the challenge is there and that is the fun. Once you get to the top, okay, it's great because... you've achieved what you wanted to achieve, and you're winning all the shows, but you probably have the same... Put it this way, the first time you win the world is always going to be the best, because you've achieved what you want to achieve. Thereafter...

it's nice it doesn't quite it doesn't quite last as long you know that feeling that good feeling doesn't quite last as long but um i'm going to be with regards to law you know at least 10 years before i'm want to be and then thereafter that's where i'll end up yes yeah uh david shoot you're um i think because your microphone is far when you turn to the one side i can't hear you anymore so so

Yeah, you have to. I think what's happening is if you're turning, I can't get the audio. Right. I'll just try and say straight on. Like a statue. Yeah, yeah. It's just because your microphone's far away, I think. That's just what it is. Yeah, no problem. Okay, cool, cool. But yeah, totally, I hear you with that in regards to winning Worlds. So obviously the first time you won Worlds.

It was like this massive high and then it just didn't last as long, I guess. Yeah. And then interesting. OK. Yeah. I mean, the first time. The first time is always going to be the best. It doesn't have to be bodybuilding. It's any sort of goal you have. The first time you achieve it, it's always like you've finally climbed to the top of the mountain. And then thereafter...

The perspective changes because you're no longer underdog. You're not trying to win anything. You're effectively just trying to retain what you already have. So it's a different pressure. The actual feeling of winning isn't so much. It's definitely that you've won. It's more that you've just survived. You've hung on to what you already have. Therefore, the feeling afterwards of accomplishment isn't quite the same.

it passes quicker and i don't think that's that's you know specific to me as a person i just think that's the way we are as people we'll always we'll always experience that and that's why i think one I did everything I wanted to in bodybuilding in the sense that I won all I needed to win. To keep winning thereafter wasn't worth it anymore. That's not to say...

People always say, have you really retired? And I think, you know, I'll never say never because I've said that before. But certainly the last time I competed, yes, I won the show. And it was a great event, don't get me wrong, it was worth it, but feeling of elation and accomplishment, it didn't justify... restriction on my life anymore that's the only way i can i can explain it um because you're not winning anything you've not won before right so that's that's effectively it

Then you need to sort of create other triggers, other motivations as to why you want to keep competing. And you have to do that as a champion because inevitably... just winning it isn't enough anymore. You have to almost find another reason to keep going. But eventually you get to the point where, I hate to use the word bored, but I did almost at the end feel a little bored. of the repetitive cycle that I was doing. So, yeah, that's why I needed something new and it came...

Changing career came at the perfect time for me because I wasn't particularly satisfied in the job I was doing before. I was doing a lecturing role before. And that wasn't enough for me. And I'm...

It'll be no surprise to you, Kenny, that I'm... I wouldn't say I'm an adrenaline junkie, not by any means, but I need something up here to aspire to and to chase. Otherwise, I just... i just don't have the motivation to do it i'm a kind of all or nothing type type guy um i'm either all in or i'm not in at all right for bodybuilding i know i very much know what it takes

to be where i've been before and to do what i did i know what it takes and i just don't i'm not sure whether i really want to do that anymore you know yeah um it doesn't mean i wouldn't do it again but it needs to be there the motivation needs to be there yes yes yeah that's uh that makes sense and people like to discredit motive i find that

maybe it was a way to cope through the pandemic but i found that a lot of it a lot of um people were discrediting motivation like on social media and whatnot and saying it's not about motivation it's about discipline but My thoughts have changed on that. Motivation is extremely important. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, no, sorry. They both have their place. You know...

The simplest way I can explain it is I have the discipline within me to do another bodybuilding prep. That'll never leave me. That is part of who I am. But you need to be motivated to want to do that, to want to put yourself in that place. And once I'm in that place, the discipline's there anyway. It's intrinsic. It's not something that comes and goes. But motivation does come and go. So I get how...

Some people try to discredit it, you know, as almost like, oh, it's a fleeting feeling and it doesn't mean anything, but both have their place. So, yeah. Agreed. I agree with that. I think many can, who are listening as well, can relate with that as well.

um yeah i wonder if there was like a show that popped up that kind of intrigued you that you haven't won yet that maybe all of a sudden you get that itched and you're like oh for some reason but i don't know maybe maybe it runs deeper than that for you you know versus just Yeah, I think if... To be honest, we've always said it, but if there was one show, and it's been talked about a lot, where...

My entire pro career, there was always things of, yeah, could we make it happen? Could all the feds... get together could be a create a super show and I've talked about this a lot I've talked about this on various podcasts that the idea was always branded around it even even if we didn't have one one fed like the IFBB has. The IFBB is the IFBB, it has the Olympia. Even if we didn't have that, we could have had the major natural bodybuilding federations host.

Each federation could host the World Championships every year. So we'd move around and everyone would go there and... We just adhere to the rules, the drug testing procedures of that particular federation. And they couldn't, you know, they couldn't complain and it is what it is. But the problem, the problem with that, Kenny, inevitably is that...

Even if you get the majority of the guys together, there's always going to be a few guys who don't compete for whatever reason. They take a couple of years out, they may be injured. So you can never, you know, everyone wants to know who is the best of the best.

Like, who's the equivalent of Mr. Olympia? I don't think even having the Super Show would quell, would silence those sorts of questions. I think the nature of the sport... is simply that much like boxing and things that unless you get everyone can't fight everyone and everyone can't compete against everyone but we can do a better job than has been done what i would say

I would say in Europe, Europe has managed to galvanise. Europe is putting together big shows and there's more structure there. And the top European guys can go head to head with very few, very few people sitting out. Could you get it worldwide? I don't think so. I think we would have done it already. But it would have been a big pull for me. Could they have sorted that out?

in the last couple of years but it's just not happening I don't think and I think I've said in podcasts before that a lot of the guys who I consider to be in the in the discussion for being the best a lot of these guys are transitioning out of bodybuilding now they've been at the top they're kind you know i wouldn't say they've all they're all retired but potentially like me that they're just kind of

They're not really that too fussed about competing anymore. They're doing their own thing. So I think if you were going to get a true super show, you would have had to have done it three or four years ago. We're in a bit of a lull at the moment where there's a lot of young guys that are coming up through the ranks. So maybe in another four or five years' time, it'll be ripe for another Super Show. But at the moment, I don't think the balance is quite there.

um that's my opinion yeah no that's i think many share your opinion on that because it would basically be if i have this right where you take uh the winner or maybe top two or top three go let's say the gold medalists from The gold medalist from the Olympia, the Natural Olympia from Worlds, from maybe the Mr. America, from the Yorton Cup. So DFAC Worlds, you take them all and you have them compete in one super show kind of thing.

Is that the idea? Well, that's the only way you could do it. It's the only way you could do it. Or alternatively, as I was saying, I maybe didn't explain myself quite well enough, but what you could do is you could have, let's just say, each year. Let's just say it's the... It doesn't matter whether it's the DFAC Worlds or WMBF or the Orton Cup. That show will already be in the calendar. It'll already be planned.

The show's going to go ahead anyway. That show, much like the Olympics every four years, a country hosts the Olympics, there's that particular federation, whatever that may be. did they host the super show and they run their world they won their they just run the worlds as they would but of course what that also means is well then what do the other feds do with their sort of flagship show that year

almost surrender their show for that year to push all their athletes to the other show. That's perhaps actually logistically an easier way of doing it. As I said, is it less prestigious than having an invitation only type of event like you're suggesting? Possibly. but ultimately people people need to want it and i've found over the over the course of the years kenny that a lot of people talk a good game and they say they want this but when the invitation's there they don't pick it up

But that's a different matter entirely. I don't want to go down that road right now, but, you know, sure, if you wanted to discuss it, we could, but certainly... That's super interesting, that topic, because it is that you're tapping into the ego and then why people compete in a certain organization, right? Correct. Correct. Yeah.

And maybe there's organizations, their drug testing protocols are not as legit as other organizations. So now we're getting into a whole kind of potential concerns or issues. Yeah, these are discussions that we've had for... I mean, I've been competing as a pro since 2010, but I've been involved in the sport from about 2006 onwards.

There's always a new wave of promoters or athletes that come along and they think they have the answers. I'm like, I've seen it all before. You're saying the same thing we said 10 years ago. I genuinely believe, Kenny, that unless there was just simply one federation, I don't think we can truly have the equivalent Super Show. I don't think we can.

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Link is in the show notes. Yeah. You would, having been involved in the actual competitive side, I think, yeah, I think you probably have it downright.

everybody's got the idea and whatnot but when it comes into putting it into practice and then you really see what's possible and what isn't yeah for many reasons mentioned and there are many reasons i don't i don't want to point the finger and suggest people dodge shows or have practical years out or things like that but also the problem is with natural bodybuilding it's not our careers competing anyway.

Competing is not our careers. That's not how we earn our money. So I was even criticised in the past for not doing donations. But my argument was, look, I live in the UK. I work. I have a set amount of holidays per year. I logistically cannot fly out to three or four different competitions in the US and compete in all of them.

just to appease the fans. I can't do that. Unless they are paying for it, I can't do that. And I understand. Because I was frustrated. I would have loved to have had one federation. I would have rather I would have rather have had never been a world champion but had only but but only competed in one show you know like I would rather have never won a world ...legitimately known exactly where I stood, the entirety of natural bodybuilding. But that's just not the way the landscape was. So...

It always boils down to the question, who really is the best of the best? At that particular time, I do feel, I'll be no surprise to hear, I do feel when I was at my peak, I think... I think there was only two other gentlemen in the world who I think I would have had a problem with. And that was Nathan Williams, who I've competed against before.

and Babacar Nayang, who I've never competed against before. Babacar was undefeated at WNBF Worlds, I believe, and he now competes in the IFBB Pro Federation, but he's someone I would have liked to have competed against. And if I could have beaten them or not, I would have had to have competed. And we're very different physiques. So it would have been very much Apples and Oranges. It would have been an interesting line-up. But no disrespect to anyone.

because ultimately you can't just say I'd beat everyone because you don't know because you've never competed against them but that's that's what I feel Kenny I feel those two guys I mentioned stand slightly above everyone else that i know of there may be guys out there who you know i've forgotten about or i don't even know exist but i can only go by who i've seen on the circuit

Are you talking about the era of when you competed? Because Nathan Williams competed, I think, in the early 2000s, right? Nathan, no, Nathan was... Oh, no, sorry, sorry. I'm mistaking him with Nigel Davis, my fault. Yeah, well, well, Nigel Davis was late 90s, early 2000s. Rob Hope was like 2003 to 2006. We would have never clashed anyway. Right. But as an aside, to what I've just been discussing, I still think...

the greatest, the greatest natural bodybuilder of all time is Rob Hope. I still think that. The simplest way I can explain this is he is the only competitor who I think, if I go through... Pose for pose, I don't think I can beat him. I can't see how mathematically I can beat Rob Hope because he just wins too many poses. But I'll not labour that point. That's just a shout out to Rob. Rob's a mate of mine.

I suspect if you asked a lot of competitors that were around when Rob Hope was competing, they'll say the same. He was different. He was extra special. He sits in a tier. in my opinion, above anyone else. But that's just my opinion. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's, I think... You know, it's interesting. He's obviously popped up on the scene now. More people are talking about him now, even because he's on Instagram and whatnot now. And you see the photos that have never been.

I never saw them. I think he had them in the archive in his house. But that probably doesn't even do it justice if you saw that. No, I've seen Rob. I mean, I think bodybuilding in general. Both of us don't do us justice because you can't see the condition that we're in. But ultimately, Rob competed at a time where there was no social media. There was no...

I mean, there was no place to upload photos to, so you just didn't take as many photos. There wasn't as many show photos, print photos, all this sort of thing. The equipment in terms of like the technology was worse. or outdated shall we say but i have seen rob in person i've seen him guest pose at six weeks out of uh the world's in 06 and oh

I know people say this, but you had to see it to believe it. It was truly remarkable. And I've never seen anyone again. And I have seen the majority of the top guys. in person but but let's let's leave it there because there are other there are other guys who i admire tremendously and who were champions when i was when i was coming up so

I have to have a favourite. And if you were to ask me, if you were to line up everyone in history, who would win Rob Hope? Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. No, that's fair. That's your opinion. You know, that's what you said.

And you've seen it in person too. So that's another level that most people won't be able to relate to. Like everybody, you know, people might have this conversation, but how many of those people having the conversation actually saw the bodybuilders in person? there you go this is the problem this is a problem that's a problem yeah so okay interesting some guys some guys photograph well others don't um it was i mean that

To run a comparison, I can only liken it to Dorian Yates. Dorian Yates, obviously, his physique was not photogenic. It didn't come across well in photos because you lost the dimension and you lost the granite conditioning. But everyone... Seeing Dorian compete at Olympia, I said it wasn't even close. Wow. He railroaded everyone. But of course, nowadays on the internet, people look at old photos and think, hey, this looks, Dorian doesn't look that good compared to these guys, but no.

So, yeah, it's just in addition to what you were saying, Kenny, it's so true. You would have to have seen everyone in person, but also the dynamic of a class, just things. So you have to see these guys in person.

and standing next to each other otherwise you don't really know simple as that that makes sense to you so you could do the direct direct the direct yeah comparison towards one yeah right yeah that makes sense you mentioned um uh nathan williams and you mentioned bible right yeah yeah and and you're going based on also uh just your era as well like the where you could have clashed with one another right sure sure yeah

yeah that makes sense yeah that makes sense um did nathan competed in the dfac as well he didn't yeah yeah yeah nathan nathan's only competed uh dfac so nathan turned pro Nathan turned pro in 2012 and he last competed with me in the British Pro Grand Prix in 2022. But he went on in the DFAC Worlds later that year. I couldn't. But Nathan is... I don't know if I'm going too far, but I think he has perhaps the most potential of any natural athlete I've...

I've seen recently really is quite extraordinary in terms of his base structure. And similarly, you mentioned Barbacar. Barbacar is also one of those guys that's got an incredible base structure. He's extremely wide for his height, very round, full muscle bellies. And I still think, you talked about Ira, but I still think right now in 2024, they're still the best. And I'll include myself because I have to give myself a shout out.

As I said, there's a lot of really good guys up and coming, but the top guys are still the top guys. They just don't compete as much anymore. And that might rile up. So if anyone is out there and they get pissed off at me saying that, use it as motivation, guys, because that's all you can do. But the guys that have been the best for about the past six, eight years, in my opinion, are still the best.

Yeah. On the scene at the moment. Right. It's so funny because we had Nunez, Alberto Nunez was on the channel we were talking and he gave his top five and someone, I posted that. video on YouTube, and someone in the comments section was like, to not include David Kaye is just absolutely ridiculous. Like, people actually get upset. And I don't know if Algo has seen you in person. I have no idea.

I haven't seen that. It's like you discussing it right now is the first I've heard about that. But I'd have to go and listen to the guys that he's actually included. before I would take any offense to that anyway. But this just illustrates my point that everyone has their favorites. And unless... Yeah, unless they've seen you compete, then... You can't, yeah. You just don't know. And that's why every point I've made today I have to preface by saying this is my opinion and I...

If there's guys I haven't seen compete in person, forgive me if I'm not including you, but we only gravitate to who we're aware of.

There's too many layers, overlapping layers, and it's all fun at the end of the day. And that's, we got to remember that too, right? I was just about to say that. I mean, ultimately, it boils down to the fact that people are fans of the sport. So they're always going to... to have these debates and that's great and listen if people like to give you a shout out if they don't it doesn't matter they won't have seen you i mean this is this ties in i guess to one of your initial questions is

about motivation to compete and what I realised that it didn't matter how good I was or how many times I won shows or who I beat there's always somebody someone in another country that'll say yeah but you've not done this show so I don't respect you, this sort of thing. So it's like, well, the way it is, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's almost as if you get that a lot, I think, even...

in the u.s more like oh if you didn't do wmbf world oh that just that's we're not yeah we're not considering that guy because wmbf world is where it's at that's how some of the guys maybe in the u.s are thinking versus yeah it's now the olympia and it once was wmbf worlds because of the collaboration with the uk the fba so you see how it's kind of always i mean

I think initially in the late 90s, early 2000s, in fact, in mid 2000s, there was really only the WNBF. So at the time, it was a premier show. Then the IFBA took over, had a bit of a stronghold. In the late 2000s, about 2009, 10, 11, the IFBA world, the original Yachting Cup, was probably the premier show. But since then, there's been too much proliferation.

There hasn't been one particular show, but you're right. A lot of the guys, a lot of the guys in America seem to hold WNBF Worlds as being elite. And I question that. Not because the fact I've not done it, because that's what everyone will claim. But I question it because they base this on numbers, because it tends to be the most heavily populated show. But as you know, Kenny, anyone with a pair of eyes and a brain in their head...

can look at the lineups and they know that numbers and depth doesn't equal quality. That's not to say the guys that are winning there are not fantastic bodybuilders. I'm sure they are. And I know a lot of them personally. So they wouldn't take any offense to what I've just said. But numbers do not equal quality. And as I said, in my opinion, the two best naturals that year were myself and Nathan, and neither of us did WNBA world. And I would challenge anyone to debate that, I really would.

That's great. And, you know, the other thing I want to just I want to add on to that real quick is that what makes the top or the best? Is it really is it just a matter of. what show they won because if you look at someone like doug miller if you take doug a second he won two shows that we'll say were respectable and natural bodybuilding it was the same oh the yorton cup and he only did it two times

He won it, and that was it. And then he kind of exited the scene. And we both know that, like, from a... If you're in this, he could arguably be... one of the best as well and maybe that you don't share that agreed uh but he's no i i i would i would include doug in my say top five top ten top one top anything but He's up there. If you were to ask me who are the most dominant, and that's the key word, dominant, powerhouses and bodybuilding at the time, Doug's in that discussion, no question.

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Link will be in the show notes. So, and to add to that, the reason I brought it up was, is it really a matter of how decorated your... contest histories i don't know of course it isn't of course it isn't of course it isn't because you get a lot of guys who compete a lot they compete in a lot of different federations they pick up a lot of silverware on the way um trophy hunters people used to call them

yeah so they are very they are very decorated but it doesn't mean you know it's like you need to win the big shows and and it's also who you beat because not every world is as competitive as those that have been in the past and those that come in the future. I think if you were to look at guys like a Rob Pope, he competed against everyone and he dominated.

You mentioned Doug. When Doug was winning the Yorton, that's where everyone competed and he was a dominant champion. So that's why he's included in these discussions. I included Babacar, because in my opinion, I don't think Babacar has been defeated on an actual bodybuilding stage. And I know the gentleman that he has competed against, and I know the guys that he's beaten.

And I respect them as bodybuilders. So ergo, Babacar to me has to be the real deal. But that's my opinion. And I think a lot of the bodybuilding community... don't seem to share that opinion. They seem to prefer to huddle in groups. Like you say, they huddle in a WNBF group or they huddle in a PNBA group and they're not willing to just...

put their arms down and say, look, this guy doesn't compete in our federation, but we have a pair of eyes. We know the sport. We can see that he's absolutely awesome. He would kick ass wherever he went. Some guys are never willing to admit that. And the longer I've competed, I think I've become far more... Tolerance, not the right word, but I've become far more inclined to big up.

I've never competed against if I genuinely feel they're a great bodybuilder maybe that's because there's not so much ego in it anymore but yeah it's a weird one and I think I don't want to labour the point but we are saying the same things I mean, let's get real. I think the bodybuilder community does know who the best natural bodybuilders are, but they'd rather not say it out loud.

Right. Maybe when they're retired or they stop competing and they're in a similar position as you, maybe they'll start to open up more. I think. Yeah, that's maybe what it is, potentially. They're still in it, potentially. Maybe that's what it is, depending on who you have in mind, because I don't know who you have in mind.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to... No, no, no, you don't have to. I'm not going to at the moment with particular names, but put it this way, the guy, most of the guys I have... as being like my top five of all time they don't compete anymore okay yeah so all of them all the guys

I'd have to think about that, Kenny, but certainly I've got about three or four guys off the top of my head and maybe one or two of them still competes to this day. But they are household names and it would be no... it would be no surprise to hear me to hear me mention them yeah yeah okay nice so what i wanted to transition into actually before we transition just to

finalize that last bit there because we're talking about motivation. We're talking about motivation. Sure, yeah. What would you say motivates you now to compete at this point? Or not to compete, sorry. What would you say motivates you now to train at this point? I just love it. I love it, Kenny. It's a habit. Habit's not a good word to use, actually, because habit suggests that it's something that's just mundane and in the background. I love training. I love going to the gym.

I still train, largely speaking, I still train in exactly the same fashion, with the same movements and the same routine as I did in all my competitive days. Which is why, should I wish to return to stage, certainly... or probably the next few years i could quite easily do it i would just have to do a contest diet um so in terms of motivation it's just it's a it's two hours out of my day that i look forward to every single day and it's

It's in me. It's part of who I am. It keeps me feeling good. It keeps me looking good. It keeps me looking the way I want to. When I finish work, in fact, when I'm at work, I still sit and think about... the session i've got and how much i'm looking forward to it so that let's not complicate the matter it's simply for the fact that i love to train and you'll find that to put to put the competitive heart back on the discussion again

All the guys on top of the sport would say the same thing. They're champions because they love to train. Because it's the journey, it's the steps along the way that make you a champion.

If you don't love just getting your hands calloused and putting some heavy iron on your back, you're never going to win anything. That's a fact. I just love it, yeah. Nice. Yeah, no, that's... That... I expect it as an answer because I think what you just mentioned there, anybody who's not really loving the training part and it's just after the silverware, they're in and out of this and probably not getting very far, if at all.

doing anything respectable in that on the competitive side right yeah absolutely yeah i mean i um i've always had that viewpoint i never understood

people's obsession with wanting to compete if they didn't actually love training because hate to break it to you guys but competitive bodybuilding is not an easy journey so if you don't if you don't love the hard stuff forget about it yeah um But what we all know because of social media and things, that's why there's this compulsion to compete all the time. But you're right, they don't last. And they're in and out of the sport, generally with having done very little to make an impact.

Right, right. And also, I think you're right about the social media thing, because people, I think it's like an ego thing. They want to show, oh, I did this, this. I look a certain way. But if you're not enjoying it or loving it along the way, yeah, they're doing it. Take away all that for a second. Just take away all the social media, all the social media.

Who's training and who isn't? That's it right there. Correct. Correct. I always say if social media, I would have no issue if social media just like stopped. It just fell off the wagon tomorrow because my life wouldn't change. But I would say probably 80-90% of the bodybuilding community would just fall away. And I think it also runs deeper that people compete because it helps them stay relevant because they need to be...

For want of a better term, they need to feel seen. They need to feel like they're involved in something, which again is an external motivator. It's not intrinsic. Therefore, it's not a good way to go. And, you know, I think I've said what I need to say on that. I think we're both on the same page there. Well put. Motivation's internal, and it always has been.

Yeah, well put, well put. You're still training six days a week like we spoke last time, I guess? Yeah, I train, so I'm training at the moment. At the moment, I do four or five weight sessions and occasionally do some light cardio on the other days off. Yeah, that was all my routine. If I'm in a contest prep, particularly towards the end, I try and make sure that I'm active every day. So I'll not be in the gym training. I'll still only be training four or five times a week with weights.

a lot more active on a contest prep on the rest days, for example, things like that. I'm a lot more active in general because you need to increase your output. But training's the same, Kenny, absolutely. Yeah, that's right. I remember exactly. That was the four day with the five days. Would you, you would do that? Chuck in that extra shoulder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Okay, cool, man. And cause I was talking to Dean.

Dean, you're familiar with Dean, right? Dean Garrett? Dean, I've known Dean. Dean and I are not particularly close in the sense that we don't really speak. Not for any negative reason, just because our lives don't... Don't come together. But Dean was one of the guys that was on the scene when I first got into competing. His career preceded mine, but of course he has competed subsequently for a long time. But Dean was one of the guys that...

was around when I first got into the sport. And he did give a lot of advice to a lot of people at the time. But I haven't actually seen Dean for... I think the last time I saw Dean in person was... at a BMBS show in 2008. No, 2011. 2011 was the last time I've seen Dean in person. Okay. And now, of course, Dean is from a different generation too, because I think he's got about maybe 20 or 15 years on you, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Dean was trading the boards long before me.

yeah yeah so but he did mention something and i was and i thought wow okay this could be a really good topic maybe it could help a lot of people out but he had mentioned that you in training uh maybe you guys were talking at a show or whatnot but he said how you brought up that you had once dealt with like terrible uh tendonitis in your elbow that's what it was and

Carely pick up a bar. I don't know if you remember this. Do you recollect this? Oh, I remember it well. I remember it well because it was right at the start of my career. I had competed in 2008 as a novice. I'd done the Novice Britain. I was British champion, nearly won a pro card. I wasn't quite mature enough yet, but the general consensus was that the next time I competed after that, I was in with a real shout.

you know um and i knew that so i'd finished my first year of competing world life was amazing and i'd i'd entered into this new world of bodybuilding and then about three months into my off season started getting a lot of elbow pain um and it got to the point where even just opening doors door handles on cars Picking up light things in a supermarket to get your food shopping, it would just be agony. And I basically wasn't able to train at all. Went to see a specialist.

was given a pretty bleak prognosis. I was effectively told that you've caused, you know, they looked at x-rays and MRIs. They effectively said, look, your training has caused a lot of damage. You'll need to modify your training. Otherwise, you'll have serious problems. So I was only 25, 26 years old at the time. So this was absolutely devastating news for me.

I didn't tell anyone about it for a while and I continued to come into the gym and just train legs because I thought I'll rest it for a few months. Resting didn't offer a solution at all. It didn't, the pain was still there. And then I spoke to, it was actually Vicky McCann who subsequently went on to be a really good training partner of her mind.

close personal friend, but she's probably the only person who I would class as being a real training partner. We trained together for about seven or eight years. It was actually Vicky that just had a word with me and said, look, I think you should just start training again. You're not moving forward. You're miserable. You love bodybuilding. Why don't you just give it a go? So that's what I did.

It was a bit painful to begin with, but slowly but surely as the weeks went on, the pain subsided because obviously I was getting a lot of blood flow through the joints, through the tendons. I effectively... To use a sort of like colloquial term, I just blew the rust away, blew the cobwebs away. And before I knew it, the pain had subsided back training again. And the improvements I made in about the first three or four months.

when I was back in the gym were incredible. And the next time I competed after that, which was 2010, I turned pro. But it was interesting because everyone... What I learned from that is that everyone is afraid to be injured. Now, I'm not saying that injury is a good thing. What I am saying is that expect to be injured or expect to have pain. expect to have overuse injuries because our sport is one of overuse. And what I realised was I'm still in pain.

There's probably not a joint in my body that is completely pain-free, but that doesn't mean I class myself as being injured. I don't want people to get the wrong idea. For 14 years, I've got 20 years of hard, hard training under my belt. And I can still train as hard as I could 20 years ago. It takes a bit more warming up. It takes a bit more... you know forethought but ultimately you you're going to pick up injuries you're going to pick up overuse injuries

Sometimes you just need to accept that it's not the end of the world. Now, I'm not saying if you've torn a muscle clean off the bone, that's a different story. But I guess the simple message is don't... Yeah, don't create a bit of paralysis for yourself by just continually trying to avoid injury because if you want to get anywhere in the sport, you won't have to deal with it.

Ed Cohen, the greatest power lifter of all time, he had a great saying once, he always said, show me someone who's never been injured and I'll show you someone who's never won anything. And I couldn't agree more. Now, you can be sensible. I'm not saying... I'm not saying that I shouldn't have avoided some of the injuries I've had over the years, but largely speaking, I think what I did, how I approached the sport, wasn't perfect, but it was less imperfect.

than what the majority of people do and that's why i had a linear improvement for for like the entire time i was competing that's a there's a lot of value in that message i think It's up to the listeners, you guys to extract the right things. It's so interesting that you said how if you're not willing to push the boundary here, I'm going to.

maybe put it in a different way that i think i value if you're not willing to push the boundary take a risk and that's what's required to compete and you're you've turned it into a sport essentially the training part because you're constantly chasing a progression right Yes, I think you're going to pick up any. I think everybody who's listening has picked up some sort of complaint, an ache, just something that's nagging them. Maybe not. And maybe a full on full on injuries. Right. But.

And then you learn from it. Maybe you try to adjust it for next time and think, oh, next time I won't do it like that. Maybe if I do it like this, it'll be even better for me kind of thing. And maybe we can avoid that extreme version of it.

No, I think that's exactly it. I think we learn through our mistakes much more so than our successes. You talked about training and it being a sport, and it is, and bodybuilding is a sport. You know, by nature and by design, it's a sport of progressive overload that your body adapts to a stress it's unacquainted with. Now, where do you know?

Basically, in an ideal world, we find a fine line between pushing enough to create that adaptive response, but not too much that you get an injury. But I would challenge anyone. To know where that line is. Yes, exactly. Well said, man. The only thing I could say is that if you've never been injured, cited the Ed Cohen quote, if you've never been injured, you're not training hard enough.

Simple as that. Simple as that. And if you're chronically injured all of the time, what's wrong with your planning or your approach? So marry the two. You're going to find that for the majority of the time you're able to train hard, heavy and intense, but you're going to experience a bit of pain with it. But it's not going to be debilitating. That's how I've always approached it.

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no there's a lot to learn from that what you said there's like you have to find that that um i don't hate to use this word balance but you have to know where the two ends are and then find it's a sweet spot it's a sweet spot in the middle where You're training hard, you're progressing, and you're not experiencing too many negatives. And I think anyone that's trained for long enough has had spells where their training is just going really, really well.

and they're lifting well, their body feels good. But inevitably, that has to come to an end because it's during those times that you're pushing even harder. So then you hit that ceiling where like your body just suffers a little bit and it's like, oh, well, you know, now we're back sore again. But the key, I think the holistic approach I took is the key is you don't just because you, you.

experiencing pain again that doesn't mean that you totally back off and it doesn't mean that what you're doing wasn't right it just means that you need to manage that for probably only for a spell of maybe one to two weeks and it'll settle and then you go again

And that's how I've approached it. It's not rocket science. It really isn't. Nice, man. No, that's really, really good. What would you say for someone who's maybe a little bit newer to this where they're not sure if they really want to... push hard and they want to progress well and i when i say newer let's say between the five to ten year mark not like a complete beginner you know they got under their belt but they're not sure it's like well

How do you know that fine line of this is something I can really push through or this is something I should adjust and modify? What's been your experience with that? Like for you're in the middle of an exercise and you're like, yeah, I never felt that the reps prior.

Where do you find that? Or what would you say is the point where, you know, OK, I'm going to push through this versus I'm going to back off today and maybe adjust it or change the exercise in terms of in terms of like experiencing pain. Yeah, like the sensation you might feel that's normal. I would say... I'll use a very simplistic overview and then I'll dig a little deeper. But first of all, I would say...

If the pain eases, the more you warm up, you're good to go. If the pain worsens, the more you warm up, avoid it. Okay? That's one. The second is that you need to also then differentiate, I'm experiencing muscular pain, as in I have a muscular injury, or am I experiencing tendinosis, which is an inflammation of the tendons, which you can train through.

You can train through that because once the tendons lubricate and the blood starts moving, the pain will ease off. I just said, if you warm up more and the pain eases, you're okay. Now, the best long-term strategy because you're just going to go around in circles. It'll get you through the session. If it's muscular and you have a muscular injury, forget it. You need to let that heal. You can't train through a tear. Simple as that. Simple as that. But generally speaking...

I kind of like instinctively know that if I'm warming up and something hurts inevitably, something will hurt, as long as it starts to subside, the more sets I do, I know I'm fine. I know I'm absolutely fine. Yeah. Can you think back to a training session, maybe more recent, that you've had something similar to that? All the time. All the time, Kenny. All the time. And this isn't exclusive to me. Anyone who's been at the top of the game in any sport...

You're not going to feel like what you did when you were 21. Things are going to be stiff. Things are going to be tight. You're going to have a bit of pain. And there are degrees of that. So recently, for example... You asked for an example. I've been experiencing a bit of patellar tendonitis. So a bit of pain in the knee. I basically...

I tried to push through it. It was worsening. I wasn't really enjoying leg training anymore, which is a shame, but it's one of my favourite workouts. So I just, for a few weeks, I just backed off the load and slowed the rep tempo down so that... basically it's a common sense approach isn't it if it wasn't hurting i wasn't hurting it that was my that was my experience and lo and behold a few weeks have passed

My knees feel better. Simple as that. You auto-regulate. People use this term all the time, auto-regulation. To me, it's just use your common sense. If something's agony, don't make it any worse and then expect it to be better the next week. Generally speaking, that's how I would approach it. I would just use a bit of sense. If it was something more serious than that, then I'd maybe look at...

sourcing outside, like physio or going to see a doctor or something about it. But fortunately, touch wood, I've had very few serious injuries. In fact, I've worked out no serious injuries in my whole career. Your body is very durable. Your body is very durable and it will adapt. It will adapt to the stress you put on it. So, yeah. Very well said.

Again, what I'm trying to do here, Kenny, is that everything I say, I try and make it digestible for people so that I'm not overcomplicating anything for anyone. And hopefully they can tap into that in their own training and say, you know what, he's right, actually. I've had that experience or I haven't tried that. You know, let's go for it. Because by and large, very few people are at risk of overtraining.

Very few people train too hard. Most of the time, people don't train hard enough. Right, right. Now, that's for sure. And also, I think there's another category of people who... maybe and this is just about learning how to train i think but there's a category of people and maybe they're very new to this and this is for you guys but maybe you're getting hurt you're not even training hard and it's because you're just not doing things in the right way

For your body. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a different, that's a sort of like, that's a planning issue or an exercise selection issue. Not everyone is biomechanically suited to particular movements. and also what I would say as a caveat what I said with regards to training intensity to make this point that if you're not training with high enough intensity

and then you suddenly increase that intensity or volume massively straight away, you might experience some adverse results. But if you were to... increase your intensity incrementally for maybe three or four weeks you would find that your body would probably adapt that quickly yeah it really would this is one that came to mind here with soreness

do you get sore more like actual doms doms yeah of course yeah yeah not it's not excessive when i'm training all the time like put it this way put it this way it varies body part body part Do I get sore biceps after a bicep workout? Very rarely, very rarely. Do I get sore triceps after a tricep workout? Yeah, sometimes, right in the belly or the long head. Do I get sore legs after leg workout? You bet.

You bet. Leg doms are a thing. Leg doms will be the bane of anyone's life forever in the day and you cannot avoid that. Same with back. If you're doing some heavy deadlifts, your erectors will be fried for a few days. it's body parts specific but the doms i have i don't know how hard i train they're not they're not that bad a couple of days um these off but that varies person to best and i've got i've got friends of mine who

do experience bad DOMS and that's just individual to them. And I've got friends who never get sore. It's individual variances and you have to work that into your own plan. If I don't train for this way, if I miss a leg workout even for one or two weeks, the doms are significantly worse, significantly worse when I come back, even after one or two weeks off. Right. So there's a message there, Kenny. You either never train legs ever or you train them every week. There's no in-between.

do you would you put do you push through dom like let's say you're on your regular schedule you're doing your thing you're progressing maybe and you're doing the whole yeah progression thing And Doms is lasting a little longer than usual. I don't know if that happens to you because you strike me as the guy who's got everything on point, right, with the nutrition and the training. Well, I think what you're asking me is do I push through Doms, like, for example, where I can...

where I train the same body part intensely, but still a bit sore. There it is. Now there's sometimes an overlap between lower back fatigue and then from a back workout, then when I go and train legs. If I'm squatting, I might still have a bit of lower back tightness. But other than that, due to the recovery time, other than that, the way my routine is planned out and the way I've adapted it over the years.

I pretty much never have DOMS in a particular body part by the time I train again. So that doesn't really answer your question as to what my experiences are of training through DOMS because I don't really ever have to do it.

okay there'll be fatigue there will be residual fatigue in my body but it's not acute to the point where i'm warming up thinking you know i'm doing chest today and my chest is still sore i've never experienced that yeah probably that's probably better i think than if you were still versus people pushing through doms right yeah i mean i don't believe

I mean, I don't have a specific paper to quote, but generally speaking, I've heard a lot of people talk and they say that the science dictates that just because a muscle is sore, it doesn't mean that it cannot be trained. But the anecdotal evidence would suggest that you'll have a better workout if your muscles are not sore. It's obvious. Well, I don't know if you've tried this. I mean, I've tried...

This is things you do when you're maybe a little bit more inexperienced, but where if you're doing it, let's say it is a chest workout and your chest is still sore. Nothing's progressing that day. Like I can't be, there's no progression happening because I physically can't.

correct that's it no matter how hard i try and i go in there with the motivation because maybe you're just unaware but it's yeah there's nothing actually moving uh upwards so then i think okay this is not productive right no and i mean that there are

also be slightly dangerous dangerous is perhaps an extreme word but anyway I've used it that if you try and train so for example if I have extremely fatigued legs and I still have a lot of doms and my legs and my hamstrings and my glutes and then I try and deadlift Stress will go straight into your lower back because your legs are not firing the same. If you repeatedly do that, then the stress through your lower back goes up over the weeks and you'll inevitably hurt yourself.

So that's an example whereby if that's happening, either your leg workout back a day or put your deadlift back workout back a day and or.

look at your leg workout and perhaps reduce volume um but i think you can work around that by planning but i see people the reason why i bring that bring this up is that i see a lot of guys who are training and they're you know that there may be dead lifting one like on on a Thursday and then they're doing their legs on a Friday or Saturday and I'm like that's just that's just poor planning like common sense dictates you cannot possibly maximize the load

and in either workout and expect to have a good workout like you say you just said it yourself it's not going to be productive and it's not going to be progressive and that is your goal progressive overload don't forget that yeah Yeah. I wonder if some of these guys that are preaching that maybe or doing that, maybe they're younger, maybe the recovery demands are completely different, or maybe they're not doing the progression thing properly. I don't know. I suspect there's a combination of.

of a lot of factors but yeah I mean I think I don't I don't criticize some new guys for trying some wacky plans because I used to do it back in the day but I've realized over time that what I did works

It works for me. I can only speak for me. But as I said before, I'm not arrogant enough to say I am right. But what I would say is I think... perfect but it's less imperfect than the majority of sort of like training plans i see and the proof is in the pudding as they say because i didn't i didn't start out like this i wasn't a pro world champion back in 2008

I was just a young kid with a glint in his eye. He was hungry and he loved bodybuilding. And I had to work to the top. So you have to believe in your own approach. And I think it's justified. Nice. I love that. That is a great way to exit that combo. That's brilliant. And I have a question for you with regards to the competing, if you want to answer one more question there.

When you were competing for the DFAC Worlds, you won three times the overall. Yes, yes. Okay. Who came second and third to you? Do you remember? The first time I won the Pro Worlds was 2-15. So I did the IFPA Yachting Cup in 2011, and I was third in the middleweights. Cleveland Thomas won the... middleweight class and he went on to win the overall there. I then went to DFAT Worlds in 2013 and a gentleman called Robert Johnson won. In 2014, Siobhan Cunningham won DFAT Worlds, I was two.

So I managed to move past Robert, but Siobhan was in the way. So to answer your question directly, just so the viewers have a chronology of how it worked, 2.15 was the first time I won Worlds and Siobhan Cunningham was too. 2017 was the second time I won Worlds and Siobhan Cunningham was two. So me and Siobhan were always one too. I won it again in 2019 and it was a gentleman, Robert Peacock.

He's been around the scene for a long time. He's a big, big guy. He was two. Siobhan wasn't in the Worlds that year. There are loads of other guys, but when I was coming up... In order for me to have won the Worlds, Siobhan Cunningham was the guy that was in the way at the time. And it just so happens that Nathan Williams was competing. He did compete in 2014 as well, but he competed in 2016 and I didn't compete in 2016.

he won the world in 16 um and then we didn't we didn't compete again until 2022 but i think at the time my My world's wins in 15 and 17, when you talked before about who do you beat, basically, who have you beat? And that sort of dictates the worth of your win. Siobhan was overall WNBF overall champ in 13 and he was second to Cleveland Thomas who won the overall in 14 so Siobhan to me was like he was a guy to beat so I beat him.

twice and i think that that meant a lot to me but i wasn't actually the irony is that i wasn't at my best necessarily in those years But I was improving generally, but I got better so that I think I was at my best in 2022 when I last competed and when I beat Nathan. So if you plop that 2022 Dave K physique. into a for example a 209 yacht and we're dug one or

a 213 WMBF where Siobhan won, or a 215 where Brian Whittaker won, a 22-day K would have been a real problem for everyone. So that ties in a little bit to what... discussing earlier that I think people put too much stock in particular feds and particular titles and don't actually look really at well how good is the actual physique who are they beating you know

That's my opinion, but I was improving the entire time. And of course, the sport moves on in some regards, but in other regards, I think... as I said to you before, I think the top, top guys from the past would still be winning all the shows today. Just out of curiosity. I'm sure there'll be a lot of folk out there that'll disagree, but...

that's my stance and i'm second to it yeah yeah yeah no absolutely it's uh i mean also it's no small achievement if you will uh what you've accomplished like this is insane uh if for those who really know or understand natural bodybuilding yeah there's there's this element of did this person show up at their best but that's what makes the competition that's what makes someone a champion is if they can show up at their best also also i would say that won a lot of shows but not all of those

shows i was potentially at my best or i had a good prep some some years i had really bad press because i was potentially fighting an injury or i had some other stuff going on but i still i was still turning up i still showed up you need to show up to win And it is a cliche, but champions are champions because they do the best that they can with the circumstances that they have at the time. And you need to turn up to win. And I always did. And similarly...

Firstly, some shows, my preps were so smooth and the physique at the end was better. But the titles are still the titles and you've still won the shows. Nothing's ever perfect. I think that's what people forget. People just see you on show day turn up, win the show, and they think it's all been smooth for you. And they have no idea about the struggles you face, but nor do they care.

It doesn't matter. No one cares work harder. That's always been my attitude, you know? Yeah, yeah. But that's what makes the champion a champion is if they can show up under all the struggle and still win and still wipe out who the quote-unquote best... was right correct absolutely 100 and i think that is something that has always been a strength of mine and others it's not it's not exclusive to me but i think i've always had a very strong mindset um

I think you have to have to do well in bodybuilding, but certainly a lot of preps where people probably would have just pulled the plug and pulled out. but i never i never sacked off a prep i'm glad i'm glad i never did so yeah that probably transfers so well into just life in general if you know how to extract absolutely absolutely yeah yeah like if you can take that what you're saying

And what you've done, how much of that has applied so well into your day-to-day life, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you're quite often not even aware that... you're you're doing that or you're thinking that or you're digging deep or you're tapping in or whatever quote you want to use it's just what you do um and it doesn't mean that you have

doesn't mean that you're immune from having bad days or bad experiences or feeling low you do you feel all that but you just keep you just keep trudging forward and that's okay like you say it's a metaphor for life But certainly in bodybuilding especially, that often becomes the norm. That's the norm. And as I said before, if you don't love the journey, it's going to kick your ass and you're not going to get very far. Simple as that.

Absolutely. Well said, man. What I wanted to just, out of curiosity, because you're looking in fantastic shape, David, and we could see you here through the Zoom for the YouTube. Yeah, I've got shorts on. It looks like I've got shorts on. Yeah, we can see that. That's the old school bodybuilding classic shorts that you have on.

With regards to where you're sitting at, like real quick, just a simple stat. Where are you sitting at in terms of how far away are you from stage weight out of curiosity? Not. I'm sitting leaner than I normally would sit in the off-season. And that's partly deliberate, but also partly because I'm not aiming to get any bigger anymore. That's just not what I've been.

I'm about quite as lean as I was around Christmas time. But Christmas time last year, I was probably sitting about six to eight weeks out in terms of like, I reckon I could have got in. to the condition that I know I need to be in in about eight weeks, six or eight weeks, which is pretty lean. I was walking about pretty lean. Like I still had glute striations, albeit.

faint but still there you know I wasn't far away I would say now I'm still a lot leaner than I would sit in a normal off season I'm about 90 kilos I don't know what that is for your for the

And pounds, I mean, maybe about between 202 and 205 pounds. And I would normally sit maybe about 210, 215. So I'm quite a bit leaner. And like you say, that's... partly deliberate and i'm not pushing the food but it's probably naturally where my physique is happier to sit because it's not very difficult for me to maintain this sort of condition um this one yeah yeah

No, I was going to say this is probably the... Yeah, you're not very far. And this would have been an interesting transition into nutrition. But why don't we, if you're open to it, save that for another time, a future time, where we can just break down some nutrition stuff.

And it'll give something for the listeners to look forward to. Yeah, we talked quite a lot. We talked about a lot of subjects very quickly today. So I hope for the viewers out there, if you listen, I hope you were able to tap into what you could. And again... What I said today, it's only my opinion and it's what I've done, but if you can just take something from it and you can just think, hey, let's take it on board, let's listen, let's take this approach.

This is what we're here to do. And this is why I'm on today. Simple as that. And thanks for having me on, Kenny. Oh, it's always a pleasure, man. Honestly, I truly enjoyed this conversation. I love it. I love getting into those details. And you can't do that with everybody. It has to be the guys who are in it competing, right? Well, what I do have is...

Whether you like what I say or not, or you agree or disagree, you can't deny that I have credibility because I've been in the sport for a long, long time. I've competed at the highest level and I've won and I've won over a long period of time. So I'd like to think...

that my my views do hold some weight that's it and that's uh that's why it was such a great conversation today because again it's one thing to compete and then it's one thing to have competed and done so at the highest possible level And so there you go, man. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time, David. This will be a banger for sure. The listeners are going to love it. No doubt about it. Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for tuning in. That's all for episode 132 with David.

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Hey guys, real quick. If you're listening on Spotify or iTunes, leave us that five-star review. We really appreciate it. And it goes a long way for putting the episode in front of more people, which gives more exposure to the show.