Finding Identity Beyond Success with Marguerite Martin

​[00:00:00] Rachel: Welcome to _Lonely At the Top_, A podcast for high level leaders carrying the invisible weight of the world on their shoulders. you know the higher you rise, the fewer people you can safely talk to. Here we welcome founders, executives, and decision makers who feel the isolation and pressure that comes with power. _Lonely At The Top_ is your sanctuary in the storm, and I'm your host, Soul Medic and former Psychotherapist, Rachel Alexandria. [00:01:00] Today on the podcast we have Marguerite Martin. She's spent over 20 years as a Tacoma real estate agent, and in 2015 she created _movetotacoma.com_, a civic-minded neighborhood guide and podcast that's helped thousands of people find their in Tacoma. is in Washington, for those who don't know. She pioneered a referral based real estate model that Forbes Magazine featured earlier this year, matching clients with specialist agents while working entirely remotely. She's also a business coach who trains agents at brokerages across the country and holds a professional certificate in executive coaching from Henley Business School in England. Welcome to the show! Marguerite Martin: Yes. Thanks for having me! Rachel: You. Okay, so I always like to start with how do we know each other? The truth is, we don't Marguerite Martin: No. Rachel: know each other very well. We were [00:02:00] introduced by the fabulous Lauren Goché. Marguerite Martin: Actually, oh, I have some of her propaganda here with me right now. Here's her logo. Lovely tote. Rachel: Ooh. Marguerite Martin: It, it's, Rachel: What Marguerite Martin: It says: _"The most interesting people, buy the most interesting houses"_, and that is her tagline, which is, she was my real estate agent when I lived in Portland, Oregon. So I'm a customer and I get the free swag. Rachel: Nice, nice, nice. Okay, so Lauren told me a little bit, and you and I have had a chat previous to this because I like to have people on the show. I mostly don't bring on entrepreneurs. That may change. We're in season two now, so we'll see if there's a little bit more flexibility and I'm branching out. But like to have people who have an experience of loneliness. And my experience of entrepreneurship is that you can actually find a fair amount of community because lots of business owners Marguerite Martin: Hmm. Rachel: are going through the same thing. Lots of solopreneurs, but you have a very [00:03:00] specific experience of loneliness. So. Marguerite Martin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, oh, I feel like I have multiple experiences of loneliness. But yeah, I think the trick with entrepreneurship, right? Is it, I guess it depends on who your customer is. I always think about that movie American Beauty. Did you ever see it with Annette Benning she's a real estate agent in that movie, and there's that whole thing of, in order to be successful, you must project an image of success at all times. And that is the loneliest part for realtors, because your community is your customers and to admit any kind of problem or vulnerability, lets them know that you might not be able to be the thing you need to be able to be for them if they buy or sell their house with you, which is a wise, stable force in their life. And so that is the loneliest part, not, not just for me, but for realtors in general, I think is just. to be vulnerable is to potentially give up business, and I wonder if many entrepreneurs feel that way. Rachel: Mm. Well, I, think that's probably true. You know, there's a [00:04:00] certain amount of... I'll just speak from my back profession, you know, being a psychotherapist originally. Yeah, there's a certain amount that you're just not, gonna share with your clients. and like I remember when I was going through my divorce, I probably told some of my clients just because it would become relevant in their sessions, but. You know, I was just like, yeah, you know, that's a I'm walking through. Marguerite Martin: Right. Rachel: But I would keep it to the minimum. But what they didn't know is before the session, I'd walk in crying, Marguerite Martin: Hmm. Rachel: You know, get my office ready, sit down, myself together, And then after their session, they'd leave. I'd shut the door and lock the door, Marguerite Martin: Right, Rachel: and start crying again. Like, Marguerite Martin: right. Rachel: so, yeah, . There's definitely, and maybe that's everyone at work to some extent, right? Marguerite Martin: Yeah, absolutely. We're all trying to find that balance of like, how much can I share? You know, what can I risk? Rachel: Mm-hmm. But you, you and I talked about, the experience that you have had becoming a, [00:05:00] what would you say, kind of like, what would you say? Marguerite Martin: Yeah. Rachel: Micro celebrity? Marguerite Martin: Yes. I mean, it's, it's a weird thing to say like, I'm Tacoma famous. A little bit in a city of 200,000 people, like some people know who I am. Yeah. Rachel: But probably beyond that, you're trying to get people to move to that city. Marguerite Martin: Absolutely. Well, and it's like, you know, I think anybody who's lived in a small city knows it's a little bit, especially within the downtown area, it tends to be kind of more like a small town. Like you become really familiar with the servers and the restaurants and the bartenders and the grocery store checker. Like you, you really start to know. And people know you, and you layer onto that a podcast, a YouTube channel, any kind of like intentional media marketing strategy, and you can saturate like a small city very quickly and be a known figure. You can even be a notorious figure. Rachel: Ooh. Okay. I think we wanna get into the being. What is it like to be a notorious figure? what is, I mean, 'cause you know, this is a thing you're doing for [00:06:00] business you're being a professional face. And you experienced notoriety, how would you define that? Like how did you first experience that? Marguerite Martin: Yeah, and you know... It started off like very normal real estate type stuff and I think it was my own kind of transformation that kicked it into a different place. Like, many real estate agents, they understand that, you know, we are the product. You, you liking me and trusting me. Better than any other realtor. You know that I'm gonna be the one that you pick. Assuming we're all competent, you're gonna go with the person you like the best. So we just have to be out there, we have to be likable. And I knew that game, I'd done that for 10 years before I started _Move to Tacoma, _and _Move to Tacoma._ Was meant to be a resource for buyers. moving, obviously moving to Tacoma because people would find out they were moving to Tacoma and be like. Ugh, where's that? And you know, 10 years ago, there weren't a ton of websites and YouTube channels and stuff devoted to the community. So it was a resource for my favorite clients, which were relocating buyers. And as I started to build it out, I thought, oh, well, I'll [00:07:00] do a podcast so that I can get some attention for the website so that Google will find it more quickly. And in my mind it would be like 10 episodes. And then I just stop. And. The podcast was unexpectedly successful, and also I loved it, and the podcast was not about real estate, it was just about community. And I, I'm sure you feel this, like when you start talking to people, people are very interesting and it also gives you the opportunity to spend an hour with somebody that. Might not have given you that time. And in the first 10 episodes, I had the mayor of the city on the podcast talking about her vision for the city and what was going right and what was going wrong, and gave me advice about who I should have on the podcast. It was, I was like, wow, like this is a lot of access. This is like a little bit of power, right? I have a platform. I naively thought that everybody would think that was really cool. And in retrospect it's like laughable, right? I. Uh, well, you know, Rachel: Nobody ever does, Marguerite Martin: yeah. Rachel: All the people never share an opinion. They never do about [00:08:00] anything. Marguerite Martin: When you are in the public, the public will let you know what they think about you. But I was also like, kind of innocent, you know, for a real estate agent. Like, I still kind of believed in meritocracy. Not completely, but I, I thought housing was good. I thought like if anybody in America that worked hard that wanted it could own a home, like I had kind of scrapped it together and figured it out without help from my parents and whatever, and I think I just, I really believed that and I went through a leadership program in the city in. The same year that I started _Move__ to Tacoma_ called the American Leadership Forum, and part of that one year program, you know, you learn about systemic racism, the way that misogyny shows up in the workplace. There's all of these intersecting things that you learn about with a cohort of people of different ages and different... Rachel: Right, redlining and kind thing... Marguerite Martin: yeah. And of course realtors are educated on redlining, so we don't keep doing it. You know, they tell us about steering, so we don't steer, you know, we, realtors segregated America, right? They let, they let us know not to do that. Now. But yeah. Rachel: For anyone in the [00:09:00] audience who doesn't already know what that is, can you explain that? Marguerite Martin: So before 1968 when the Fair Housing laws were passed, it was totally legal and in fact, institutionally, like it was structured that by race you could not buy in certain communities. So if you were black in America, even if you'd served in like many of our grandfathers served in World War ii, you came back, you wanted to use your VA, you, if you were a black man, you couldn't. And the reason, and I always heard that and thought that's just 'cause people were so racist. No, it's because the banks, I learned this in the American Leadership Forum year. The banks actually had, an underwriting guideline. Just like they, now they have underwriting guidelines for the loans that said if a neighborhood was more than 15% black or people of color, that they would not fund the loan. These were government loans, a VA loan, an FHA loan, and those are the loans that back all the other loans. Right. So that was a big aha for me. 'cause it wasn't just, oh, the agents were racist. The people in those communities were racist, like. They couldn't do it. So what that... [00:10:00] built-in by design because of risk, because black people were seen as, I mean, hazardous on the maps, it says hazardous. And so what that meant was there were specific sections of the city, your city, my city. Every city had where black folks could buy, they would pay higher interest rates, they had to get different loans, and of course, most importantly, their homes would appreciate less so. Two grandfathers come back from World War II, one grandfather buys in the white part of town. One grandfather buys in the only place he's allowed to. He pays a higher rate of interest, and his house appreciates less. And that's the impact of generational wealth. Like, I mean, when you come to understand this, it's like, okay, well white families in America have 17 times the wealth of black families in America. That's how that happened, right? Because then those people use their money to send their kids to college and give them opportunities, and then they help their grandkids put 20% down on a place. And like you can just see how it balloons and balloons and balloons. And even if you go, okay, well Marguerite 1968, the Fair Housing Law passed. Like we've had a while to figure it out. We haven't. And in [00:11:00] fact, this was the big stat I also learned that year that like radicalized me, is that, we're more segregated now. Than we were before Fair Housing. So Fair housing is a, in that way, little bit of a failure. Like because our clients segregate, everybody is still self-segregating and frankly, like, you know, the institutions still support that in their own way. Right? And the individuals within those institutions, consciously and unconsciously. Still perpetuate this stuff. So there's no meritocracy. Sadly. Housing is not a just place. It was a big disappointment to me to learn that. 'cause then how do I reconcile, right? This is my career. I didn't go to college. I'd built this successful world doing a thing that I now understood and still understand. I still believe to be. Harmful. Right. And I think a lot of us work in, in fields where we're like, yeah, I personally am a good person, but the work I do, I can see how it helps some people and hurts other people. And that's capitalism baby. And I just try to make it work. And I think that's, that it was the beginning of that understanding that really caused a lot of [00:12:00] problems. Rachel: Caused a lot of problems? Okay tell me more Okay, tell me more Yeah, well I mean, the first, so as I'm coming to understand these, the, the historic aspects and the systemic aspect, my community is also letting me know. That moved to Tacoma is a terrible thing. Like I had thought, this is a great thing, this is a helpful thing. I'm gonna make my city look good. Marguerite Martin: And there were people that loved that. Oh, civic pride. Yeah. She, she makes these videos about the city. Everything looks really good. Other people were like, uh, I don't know if you've noticed, but our rents are going up. Home prices are going up. We actually can't afford to live here. Don't tell more people to move here and make things more expensive, dummy. And I was like, oh. I mean, I get what you're saying. At first, like I felt a little bit like. You know, like, how dare you? Like I'm doing this thing. I spent my own money to make this beautiful thing. Like, and then, you know, but the more I listened and the more I thought about it, they were right. And to this day, there's still people that say that if I can, I, I tell people all the time, don't call your website, move to anything. Like, call it something else. People do not like a call to action. Uh, that is not [00:13:00] But it really forced me into conversations that I don't know that I would've found my way into with my own empathy about gentrification, displacement. And these are conversations that are not unique to Tacoma. They're happening in every city, not just in America. Like the housing crisis extends to. if you travel in Europe, if you travel to other countries, you will find displacement rising rents, rising home prices. This is an issue everywhere. And so, since I've started the website, home prices in my community have more than doubled, and rents have more than doubled. So when people get mad when they see the name of my website, I get it. I completely understand. Now, back then, it hurt my feelings. It was very isolating. It was very lonely, Rachel. Rachel: Roll credits. so here I ask about what's a leadership decision or season that tested you? one Yeah, I. Like you had created something, you built something, you were the [00:14:00] face of something and you started getting a lot of pushback that said, Hey. don't believe in your, like your values. We don't, think that you're actually doing something that, You Marguerite Martin: Yeah. Rachel: right? You had your of like, Marguerite Martin: Mm-hmm. Rachel: people. And then you get a bunch of feedback that says, actually Maybe not. Marguerite Martin: Uh, and I think this is a part that translates really well. I think a lot of people experience this in their careers, right? And you have a choice here. You can listen to the people that have a problem with what you're doing and really think about it and use your empathy and go, okay, if I was in their position, would I agree? And for me the answer was absolutely, I would agree and or you can go, well, people just don't get it. And because I had plenty of people that were telling me I was amazing, and those people were important. People like economic development loved me, right? Like. Government people, people that were trying to get businesses to relocate here, they're like, she's doing our job for us. This is great. There were all kinds of people who were saying, don't listen to the haters. Right? [00:15:00] Like, just do your thing. And I think that was the part that was very hard is I empathized with the haters. Not all of them, but I think a lot of it was very constructive and very valid. And I still think it is. And I think reconciling, you know, there's this whole thing that people say now, like, oh, both and right, or two things can be true at the I think this is one of those things. Rachel: You know, there's, there's going to be unintended consequences, right? Like, let's say Tacoma doesn't, you know, have good economic development, people move away, housing loses its value. People who had invested in their housing poor like that's also bad. Marguerite Martin: Well, and I was a real estate agent during the crash. Right. I saw that happen. We had the highest rate of foreclosure in the state. We had home values fall, you know, 40% or something. Like, it was absolutely tragic. Nobody wants that to happen either. But when that happened, private equity companies and big, companies came in and bought up [00:16:00] all the inventory. If that inventory had gone to local people, I wouldn't have had the experience that I had when I tried to. Talk up the city, right? It's it, and this, again, this isn't a Tacoma problem. This isn't a Marguerite problem. This is a, this is an example of a, something that plays out, I think, even across different industries, right? Is like we have this kind of, they call it the K shaped economy right now. Just because things are good for some people doesn't mean they're good for everybody. And so if you work within these systems, how do you reconcile that? How do you get up every day and feel good about what you do when helping some people hurts other people? Rachel: Well, there's my question for do you reconcile that? Sets herself Marguerite Martin: I, Rachel: up... Marguerite Martin: before I talk about that, I'll tell you like it got worse before it got better. yeah. So the website was very unexpectedly successful. Like in my mind, what it was gonna do was help me attract a steady stream of buyers to work with. 'cause I prefer working with buyers. And what it actually did was attracted way more. People than I could work with myself. [00:17:00] And within real estate, we have this thing called referrals where if I connect a client with an agent, that agent will pay me a finder's fee for the client. And so I was already doing this with sellers because I stopped working with sellers during the crash. And so I already had a referral business with that. But with _Move to _Tacoma, I had a financial coach and he goes, well, if you sell 25 houses a year, why wouldn't you just refer a hundred clients a year and just not do the transaction? You just become the matchmaker. And I was like, Ugh. You can't do that. Like, that's not, that's not a thing. And then I thought, I, I'm, and I'm this way, Rachel, this is one of my worst character traits is people tell me something and I go, no, you can't do that. And then I think about it for like a couple days and I'm like, actually I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a look at that. Like I, for some reason, I have to like come around and I came around and I was like, okay, 2017, I'm gonna do. Just referrals, just cold Turkey. I joke that I'm eight years sober from real estate transactions. Like I'm just gonna send all my clients, find agent experts to put them with and, you know, see how we do. And by the way, that has gone great. Uh, no hashtag no [00:18:00] regrets. Like that's been nothing but great for my clients, for the agents in my community. Like I think it's a wonderful thing. But the unexpected consequence of that combined with all of the stuff that was already kind of boiling around, feeling like the work I do was maybe not moral like. You know, it's 2017 Trump had just been elected, kind of reconciling like, what? Wait, wait, wait. How could that happen? You know, what does it mean? How am I contributing to that? How are the people I'm close with, the people I'm working, contributing to this? You know, it was a big paradigm shift, I think, for a lot of people and to suddenly. Not have what I had before, which was a job that was so busy. And if you know any real estate agents, you know how we get right? Just absolutely stacked schedules completely available because our clients you know, one of the most stressful events. Yes. Rachel: like Marguerite Martin: expect, you know, we might be working together three, six months, but they expect that when they need something, we are available. That's [00:19:00] part of the value that we offer, right? And so you, you wake up one day and you realize, well, I haven't taken a vacation without my phone and my laptop in 10 years. And that was certainly the case for me. And especially, you know, six months out of the year, it's like every single day, working every single day available to people. You're never alone with your thoughts, right? Which in retrospect was fine with me and I discovered this once I I didn't know it. I would've told you. I would've told you, oh, I would just love a break. I would just love a day off. I just, oh, I just, I would, I, I, I, I remember saying like, oh, it'd just be so nice to just go to like a meditation retreat and just spend a few days without my phone. And like, that must be so beautiful. And like people that get weekends off, that must be so amazing. And then I suddenly had it, and I had, it happened really fast and it was bad. Like very, very bad because it turns out like I had been staying so busy because my insides were not okay. You don't become that a workaholic on that level for no reason. You know, I'll spare you my, my sad stories [00:20:00] and my, you know, histories, but like I had a lot of stuff to unpack that was being pushed down by staying busy. Rachel: You had a Marguerite Martin: So many, I haven't thought of them as secret messes, but yes. And one by one, they made themselves known to me and I like. Imploded. And I remember I'd been in therapy for years and I just remember my therapist going like, what is this? Is this self-sabotage? Like I was making the most money I'd ever made in my life. I was working the least I'd ever worked in my life. People were telling me I was great and I was, I, I just remember a whole summer, like wearing this terry cloth onesie on my deck, like smoking cigarettes every single day, like just feeling terrible and. Garbage and just really, like, I, I, I'd never, you know, I, I had never felt like I'd had like a mental health cry. I'd had things happen in my life, but like, I was just like, if there was an off switch, like I was done, I'm like, my work is bad. I'm a bad person. [00:21:00] Like, there's no meaning coming from my work. The work is now the, my work is now marketing basically, and I don't feel good about what I'm doing. And also there's nothing else. I haven't cultivated anything else in my life. You know, there's no partner, there's no family, there's no anything. And also, you know, I didn't want a traditional life, but like all these things you can just hear it. Right. Well these were, you know, things other people think about in a different order. Yeah, exactly. It was bad. Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. This is actually why I work with high performers to help them clean up their secret masses. And this is the thing that don't tend to understand whether or not they're a high performer. People like you. Like a lot of the folks who've been on my show, like a lot of my clients come from some kind of very difficult family circumstance. You know, whether, whether it's, hot upper class or lower class or affluent or not, you know, regardless of race or cultural heritage Marguerite Martin: [00:22:00] Yeah. Rachel: that isn't really the marker, but something was going on in their family where they were never told and having it meant that they enough, like, you know, they were hustling for their worth the time that they can even remember, not even realizing that's what was happening. And so what happens is the people that I work with anyway, you know, they, have the grit and the determination and the intelligence and the hustle to Marguerite Martin: Mm-hmm. Rachel: far. Right. You guys do great. You're like, oh yeah, I can absolutely give my 24/7 to making this success because you know, I'm chasing a carrot I never get, and what happens when get Marguerite Martin: Boo. Zero stars. Rachel: better than never getting the carrot. Like never getting the carrot also doesn't work because we have a finite amount of energy Marguerite Martin: it's true. Rachel: as people and as you get older, you have burned through your youth of just more [00:23:00] generated energy on a cellular level. You get to a place that, this is why we, you know, we get to this place in mid-age where people run out of fucks, it's really that you've run out of energy. Marguerite Martin: Right. Rachel: to cover over the stuff underneath. Marguerite Martin: Absolutely. Rachel: right. That toxicity underneath. So you get to this place, whether you hit that carrot like you did, and you're like, oh, I got the carrot. Oh, it tastes like ash in my mouth. Like, I'm glad I'm not broke. But I don't feel a inner sense of peace and fulfillment because secret is I never felt a sense being okay. And being financially successful doesn't bring that to us. Marguerite Martin: No, and then to be sitting there and thinking, well, what could I imagine? what's the next carrot and feeling? No. And even feeling like any carrot I saw other people suggesting seemed, you know, and that's, I mean, I definitely don't recommend what I did, which start reading all the nihilist literature, you know, myth as Sisyphus and all that was stupid. No, it did aha help at [00:24:00] all. I was like, this is terrible. Everything's meaningless. It was just like, you know, and then I slowly like pulled myself. Outta that with the support of a lot of friends and a good therapist, but like got to a neutral baseline. I wasn't like thriving. And I had a girlfriend. I was on vacation and visited an old friend who was very wise and she was like, well, how are you? I said, I'm good. I'm neutral. Like I'm fine. And she's like, Hmm. She's like, have you ever thought of just like moving somewhere else? I was like, oh yeah, I can't do that. 'cause I told everybody to move to Tacoma so I have to stay there forever. And she's like, I wish you could hear how stupid you sound. 'cause like you, that's just not true. She's like, you're single, you're successful. You can live anywhere in the world. She was like, move to Philly, move to New York. Like go get some East Coast energy. Like get out of there. And I was just like, you have no idea if I did that, people would be so mad. And she was like, I don't think exactly. She was like, I don't think anybody cares what you do. Just, it was funny 'cause I like went [00:25:00] home and thought about it and like three weeks later I was looking at apartments in Portland, you know, two and a half hours away. I was like, you know, I thought about, I said no to the idea you can't do that. And then I let it work away in my brain. Rachel: And then Marguerite Martin: yeah, and I, I said, okay, I'm gonna go take a one year sabbatical in another city and just think about it. And I ended up staying for six years. Oh, careful with your sabbaticals. Ladies. Dangerous. Rachel: So if you could give us kind of the wise takeaway. 'cause I think you have one. What did you learn from that whole experience? Like what kind of insights do you have about yourself from that? Marguerite Martin: I think like when I think back to that version of myself, like I feel very proud of my capacity to like learn and grow and change. And also, you know, you talk about like family of origin stuff about never being enough, you know, to be in a [00:26:00] situation where like very publicly people are saying you're bad. Like, you're not enough, you're not good to hear your worst. Fears, like sort of confirmed in the public square or in the comments on Reddit or whatever. Like anytime you get even just a little taste of like internet fame and many more people get that these days than they used to, right? You really, you really have to kind of face up against the disapproval of other people and figure out, okay, what, what matters to me? What matters? Who am I accountable to in my life? And that was like a big one, was to just figure that out. My opinion matters, but I don't wanna become an egomaniac. Like who are the people that keep me honest? And then, okay, how do I proceed? And like when I look back on that, like I feel very proud. I feel like it's an ongoing, like recalibration, but I, I kind of came out of it with a, a philosophy that I think other people could apply. Yeah. Rachel: Yeah, I think that's, yeah, it's like we don't care zero Marguerite Martin: Absolutely not. Rachel: Yeah. Then, [00:27:00] then we're isolated. You know, we, we do still need feedback. We do still have blind spots no we do. And can't live and die the whim of Marguerite Martin: Nope. Rachel: because that's also not, wisdom, that's not, a curated, helpful way to be. Right. You're only hearing from the loudest, most unhappy people most of the time. Right. So finding your way to like your own inner compass. To guide you amidst all of the different information. That seems like a huge win. Marguerite Martin: Yeah. I think that, that the biggest win probably was just like a, a, a more rooted sense of self. And, you know, that'll be the work of a lifetime to refine that and figure that out in new circumstances. But I think about a lot of people that are entrepreneurs that are, or even. You know, in your corporate life now it's more common that you have to have some kind of online presence, or you have to give a talk at a conference, or you, you [00:28:00] know, create videos for your work or whatever. and people you have unexpected reactions, right? And that's part of living in a society, right? And I think if we're gonna move forward, collectively with a lot of people that think a lot of different things, which I think that's the world we live in right now. Like there, there does have to be receptivity to that feedback, but also like a path forward for like, how do we reconcile this? How do we make this right and move forward? And not just, okay, you're canceled, we're turning it off, right? Like, how do we reconcile and move forward? Rachel: I always like Brene Brown's, you know, kind of guiding mantra. Like, I don't listen Marguerite Martin: Mm. Mm-hmm. Rachel: like if, if somebody, I have a quote on my computer that I, I don't even remember where I read it from. I wonder if I can even pull it up. I'll, I'll try and put it in the show notes if I remember. But it's something like, not listening to people who try to belittle you because people [00:29:00] always do that. but, oh, I think I'm, I'm mixing two quotes. There's another one that says never be criticized by someone doing than you. Marguerite Martin: Hmm. Rachel: You'll only be criticized by people who are doing less. And when I look at my life, it's not like I've never Marguerite Martin: Mm-hmm. Rachel: Usually solicited by me consent. I have never gotten negative criticism from people doing more than me because they're busy, they're fulfilled, they're doing their inner work. They're not stepping into things that aren't their business. I only have gotten criticized by people doing less so. Yeah, I, I think that's really commendable that you've been able to Marguerite Martin: I think there might be an additional layer for some leaders in that There are always gonna be, like, I, I, I can see a scenario where, People who have less power, like they're the power [00:30:00] dynamics, right? Like there are going to be people that are critical, that are coming from a place of like oppression and powerlessness, right? And, and I can see how, if we're not careful, that could be used as a kind of like bypass, right? Like. I think most of us could use it, but you know what I'm saying, like if you're at a certain point, you could say, well, hey, it's the, it's not the critic who counts. Like I'm in the arena, for my pharma company. Rachel: I would argue people who are experiencing systemic oppression are in that arena. Marguerite Martin: Right. But the, but the, the executive might not see them as peers. They might not see them as in the arena with them. Right. Like that. And I think that's the, that's the check that we have to do. Right. Is, and I think like we're, we're just seeing so many examples right now of leadership that is just like railroading everybody else, nakedly, like for their own interest. And for the interest of their organization. And you're gonna be rewarded for that. And it's being modeled for us, like at the highest institutions in the land, to [00:31:00] care only for the people that you care for and whatever. For everybody else. Everyone's out for themselves. And so I think it, it is something to think about. Rachel: I appreciate that modification because I totally agree with you and it's, it's hard to have any one mantra Marguerite Martin: Yeah. Rachel: be representative of your entire wisdom because Yeah. I also think that people who speak truth to power. Have to be listened to even disproportionately people who are our same level, so it is also that. Marguerite Martin: Which I believe until someone speaks to me and then I'm like, whoa, whoa, wait. Is that what's going on? And that's the check-in, right? Like that's the check-in. It's like, wait, I'm power. I'm not power. Oh, maybe I am in this situation, maybe with this organization I have some power and I need to pause and be accountable right now. That's, that's a shift. Rachel: Yeah. And I think, I think also it's important to listen to who seems to Marguerite Martin: Mm-hmm. Rachel: you down versus [00:32:00] who's saying, I have a, a valid injury. Like, what you're doing is actively harming us opposed to. I'm just an unhappy person and f anybody who's, Marguerite Martin: It's a big difference. Big difference between those. Rachel: Yeah. it, yeah. That's why this takes discernment and can't just be solved by a TikTok, right? Marguerite Martin: Well, and, and I will say for anyone listening who's maybe experiencing this is even the gentlest feedback can feel really piercing when it's not expected. Right. And that that ability to just like that resilience, like developing that ability to just. Hear that is a muscle in itself. And I think for many of us, I'm a people pleaser. Like I love it when people like me and uh, yeah. And this, if you're gonna be doing this, if you're gonna be really genuinely helpful, like you have to develop the ability, I'm saying you, I have to [00:33:00] develop the ability to, to receive that. And it's, it's a journey. I, every time I think I've gotten there, somebody says something to me and I'm like, what? I thought I'd finally like, no. What do you mean? Rachel: Right, Yeah. I, I mean, as a tip for anybody listening, what I've tried to learn to do is to solicit feedback more often. So, because I know, you know, when you're, when you're in power or when you're just certain types of personality, which I am one that just comes across as. I've intimidating. Not Marguerite Martin: Yeah. Rachel: this way, but you know, powerful people come off as intimidating. I've had to learn that I won't get unsolicited feedback in a lot of places because people think I'd already know they think I couldn't possibly care or something. So one thing that has made it easier for me is to solicit feedback regularly, and when I do that, expect that I'm going [00:34:00] to hear some criticism. Yeah, so then it's just kind of pleasantly surprising when I don't, and it also makes me a little suspicious, like, what aren't you telling me? But, okay, I gotta bring us to the segment of the show where we talk about your of Marguerite Martin: Oh, Rachel: We've clearly into all Marguerite Martin: okay. Rachel: stuff, but when you're at the top. People don't see your balance sheet of burdens, but here open the private ledger with our guests. So could you please share with us one cost you paid for being in leadership? Marguerite Martin: Well, I think, and this might be unique to my situation, but I think like a certain amount of privacy is lost. Right. And also what we talked about, about, you know, having to project an image of success at all times. That access to like vulnerable connection with everyone. Like potentially is lost, right? Like I think, and I'm a person that really likes to keep it real and likes to, you know, tell everybody [00:35:00] everything and whatever, and Rachel: I used to have all my stuff Marguerite Martin: right. Rachel: and I really had to pull that back in because. get to a certain place and it's like, people don't know all of what's going on with me, but they're giving feedback like they do, and I'm being too transparent. Marguerite Martin: Yeah. Well, and this is actually that, that's, that is actually more What it is, is, so I have an online presence. That is entirely like I, you know, I don't believe it's possible to be on social media and this is my hottest take and be like authentic. I just, 'cause you are there to perform and especially if you're selling something, like, it's just absolutely impossible. You cannot be vulnerable when you're selling. You're always selling. Whether you are conscious of that or not, that is your audience, that is your pool. And so, I now know and understand and talk about this candidly, even on those platforms like this is. You know, this is not, you don't get the real me. Sorry. Like, you don't get the full [00:36:00] this, this moment. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm holding things that are just for me and those closest for me. But then what's tricky about this is people do think they know you. And anytime you have a podcast, it's possible people have listened to hundreds of hours of you and so they meet you and they're like, wow, yeah. I know all about you. I know about your mom. I know about your stories. I know about, and you and the, difference, the imbalance, right? And also you don't. Know me, you know, a facet and, and that can start to even among your closest friend. I'm saying you again, this, my experience has been that what can sometimes happen? 'cause so often now we're keeping up with everybody in our lives on social. And so when people are around the real me, it can be jarring for them. Like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like I always think like people think I'm nicer than I. Like, oh no. Like real me can be kind of, you know, challenging. Rachel: Well, I mean, you wouldn't be a real person if that wasn't true. Marguerite Martin: Yeah, Rachel: Right? Everybody's got challenges. [00:37:00] Everybody is challenging for some people some of the time. Marguerite Martin: Absolutely. Rachel: Okay. Tell us one invisible asset you didn't realize you Marguerite Martin: Hmm. Well, I think it's probably linked to the, you know, the hardest thing in your life is also your biggest strength. Right? You know, the fact that I've been performing since I was a small child for the meager love of my gigantic Roman Catholic family. Like, you really gotta stand out when you've got 80 maternal cousins. Right. If you want any share of the. Rachel: 80. Marguerite Martin: share of the attention, right? Like, so I came up learning how to talk fast, learning how to make an impression, right? Like, and so that, you know, and that's sad. 'cause you know, every therapist I've ever had is like, you're enough just because you are. And I'll probably spend tens of thousands of dollars more trying to get that into my noggin, right? It's a lifelong journey. But, it's also like the audacity, right? That gets you, you know, my superpower is [00:38:00] getting attention and I can get attention for myself and my business. I can get it for my friends, I can get it for organizations that I'm working with. Like, you want attention? I can figure that's my, you know, I've been looking for that since I was conscious. Rachel: I think that's amazing. I love that as a superpower. And there's so many people out there who. Desperately need or want attention for their business, for their position, for their promotion, who have such a limiter on themselves and aren't able to do it. I mean, it's a thing that I've been learning to break through. So like raising up your superpower. And it's good that you own that and that you celebrate it. Marguerite Martin: Thank you. Well, and I try to share it Rachel: Yeah. Marguerite Martin: like I'm trying to, I try not to be stingy with it. Rachel: That's awesome. Okay. One investment you are making now for your wellbeing or your soul. Marguerite Martin: Well, I'm 46 and I wanna be, I wanna, I'm [00:39:00] fine with that. I wanna be a cool old lady. I wanna be like a wise old lady, like I'm a baby old. I feel like forties baby, old fifties. You're a teenager, old sixties, you're in the prime of your old. So I'm a baby old. I'm learning the ways I'm watching the other olds to see who's cool, who's not. What do I like about it? What do I not like? I want, who do I wanna be like? And the, the two things I'm kind of focused on right now are. Proving to myself that I have a flexible brain that can still grow and learn. I can be a person who, as I age, I try not to say things like, I'm bad at technology or I can't figure things out. Like I do figure things out and I set aside time to learn new things. Last year, I went to Taiwan for a month and tried to learn Mandarin. Like I just wanted to prove that my 46-year-old brain could do something it had never done before. And then, I think beyond that, I feel like the older people when I was young that I liked the most, were interested in me and were curious about me and what people my age were going through. And the older people that were so irritating [00:40:00] were always trying to tell me what I didn't understand. And now that I'm a baby old, I am feeling the temptation to tell young people what they don't understand in my day. Like, this is how it worked. And I'm like, Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Nope, nope. I need to be curious and I need to like. A wise older person is gonna pay a lot of attention, ask a lot more questions than they try to give advice for. And if you really wanna be of service to the next generation, which I think we really need right now, cultivate the ability to be curious about young people and like actually. Help them. So that's, that's the dream. That's the arc of the next like 20, 30 years, be growing and changing and having a flexible brain. And this is also self-preservation. 'cause I feel like the world's changing really fast and I wanna believe that I'm gonna be okay and that I'm gonna have relevance as time goes forward in a society that values us only by our ability to contribute labor. Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. Rachel: hmm. I, yeah, I, that's a, that's a whole bunch of stuff. Like I have so many responses Yes. To, [00:41:00] cultivating like a growth mindset is what we call it, right? You've got fixed mindset and you've got growth mindset, and so cultivating that growth mindset is so good for our health. It's, it's a good way to stave off or prevent dementia and Alzheimer's, and it's also a good way to not just turn into a calcified jackass as we get older because it's Marguerite Martin: Totally. Rachel: so easy to do. I love that you're learning languages. Like I'm spending time on Duolingo, bolstering my French, learning a bit _un poco de Español, _and I just added in a tiny bit of Japanese Marguerite Martin: Amazing. Rachel: Because I'm like, okay, well just like, let's confuse the crap outta my brain. Marguerite Martin: Yes. Rachel: But it feels really good, you know, to be like, oh, I get just such little dopamine hits from, from just adding a little bit of new, you know. So I've got two more questions for you. Obviously we could go on a while, but we, we have a deadline. We have to let this show run its [00:42:00] completion. two questions. What do you wish more leaders felt permission to say out loud? Marguerite Martin: I mean, I guess calling back to what I was talking about before, like, you know, is this impacting, you know, are our successes, you know, detrimentally impacting others? Is our success coming at the cost of our communities and, you know, our collective wellbeing? I think more people in power need to be asking that question, like, this is good. Is it good for everyone? Or is it just good for a few people, Rachel: You are just like speaking to my little revolutionary heart here. I love it so much. I have not heard this answer before! Marguerite Martin: Oh, okay. Good. Rachel: I've asked this question on every podcast episode. This is like episode, I don't know where we are. Like 26, 27, somewhere in there. Marguerite Martin: Hmm. Rachel: Yeah, I haven't heard that answer before and I love it. And I co-sign Marguerite Martin: Thank you. Rachel: Like checkmark. Okay. If people want to get in touch with you or find out more about your work, [00:43:00] how should they do that in the way that you have given express conscent? Marguerite Martin: Oh yes. Well, I have a website, margueritemartin.com. I'm Marguerite Martin on LinkedIn, and you can always follow me on Instagram @movetotacoma or @margueritemartinofficial. And now you know the secret, which is you will not see my whole complete authentic self on those platforms, but you will see, you will see a facet that hopefully you enjoy. Rachel: Yes. I love it and I've got the final question for you is when we open the time machine, you imagine the time machine doors open. And you get to step in and go back to any point in your past, what would you go and say to a past version of yourself earlier in your career? Marguerite Martin: I think I would talk to myself during the crash. You know, we went through a period where, you know, obviously every industry in 2007, 2008 did very poorly. But real estate, you know, like I didn't close a deal for six months like [00:44:00] I had, you know, it was devastating. Everybody I knew was losing their houses and was in a really bad way. And I think I had an internal story that like. You know, it was something about me and I should be able to outsmart the market conditions and outsmart, the situation. And if I was better I wouldn't be suffering to that degree. And I think I really turned on myself and yeah, it was, it was hard. And I mean, you know, there are a lot of things going on, but I think. Every strength I have professionally now, like all of my cool skills that make me special among my colleagues and my peers, the things people come to me to ask them, you know, would you teach this to my company? Would you teach this to my team? It's because of the struggle of that time, and I mean, I feel like probably a lot of older people say that about the young time is like, oh, I wish I'd known while I was suffering. I was actually like leveling up a lot, but I'd also give her a hug and maybe a couple Xanax.[00:45:00] Rachel: Well, I hope your past self can feel that. Marguerite Martin: Mm. Rachel: through, through the, boundaries of time, which is just a construct, anyway. Marguerite Martin: Yeah. Rachel: thank you so much for coming on the show. I feel like this super fast, first of all, so I hope that it's really something that speaks to the people listening. Marguerite Martin: Well, thanks for having me. This was a great conversation that I don't get to have very often. Rachel: Awesome. Thanks for listening to Lonely At the Top. If today's conversation resonated, I hope you'll give yourself permission to pause even just for a moment check in with what you might be carrying silently. don't have to hold it all alone. I work with high performers and leaders who wanna clean up their secret messes. You can learn more at _rachelalexandria.com_. And if you know another leader who might need to hear this conversation, please send it their way because yeah, it's lonely at the top, [00:46:00] but it doesn't have to stay that way. 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