Challenging the Hustle: From Incarceration to Success and Resilience

Yes , we are going to talk about experiences that happen inside the prison system , outside of prison systems . We will use language that might be offensive , but we intend to keep it real . And if that's not for you , we totally understand , but please do what's best for your listening ears .

So we said , yeah , we'll just do some housekeeping . That's what I said at least .

I did talk with a professional and they quoted me some outrageous number to build it for me . So , like everything else , I'm going to learn how to do it and I'm going to get it done .

If anybody has any feedback , I'm more than welcome to it . If you guys know how to build websites , have any advice or are willing to help out in that capacity , then heck yeah .

I want to get it published ASAP , but eventually I want to put it on there to have some merchandise . Try to get some baseball caps , t-shirts , stuff like that . I already got those stickers , so if you want the stickers , hit me up . But yeah , just trying to expand and trying to grow and trying to really get this thing on track . Another episode , I'm sorry .

Another update is that kind of listen to the feedback that you guys gave about Warren in our episodes with him on the mini and everybody wants more of Warren .

It will be the first episode of the month , will be the episode with him and it will be an hour long .

I think that what's cool about Warren and his story and why he's so inspirational to people is what he's doing , having not yet come home Right , and what he's doing with Warren is I mean , it was hard to say hey , do you have an hour of your time every month to record because he is tutoring , he is doing programming , he's leading groups , he is writing , he

is going to college . Going to college , he is doing meetings with the leadership of the prison like actual employees of the prison and the higher ups , he's working out , he's working in the kitchen .

When I was in prison , you know I it's really hard to open up to people in prison and I don't really like to open that door . I don't really like to let people in to then figure out all this dude's a weirdo and have to kick him out because it's really hard to get rid of people .

So over the years , you know talking with them , our beds were next to each other , so we ate together , watched TV together , you know we'd sit there and have conversations and eventually we got on this like real deep philosophical level and we figured out that we actually have so much in common and especially that's the feedback that we hear on the episodes .

But this is really how we just talk , and he was the first person I guess the only person in prison that I was actually like man , this guy could be my brother or something Like . We're that close , you know , we just get to talking , not to say we never had a disagreement , but it's just .

I got a lot of love for you , I got a lot of love , I got a lot of respect for him .

He will always make sure that you leave a phone call knowing that he loves you , right , like I mean he will say multiple times in a phone call like I love you , bro , I miss you . I hope the family as well .

Like he puts his love first and I don't know if that's always been who he is or if that's something that he's grown into because of his time , but it's one of my favorite pieces of who he is and one of the things I respect about him the most because , especially for men for men in general , but for also for black men like there's a stigma of how you're

showing those emotions , especially like love , if it's not just pure respect and things like that . There's a stigma Like macho , macho . Yeah .

Right , he's gotta pay for his phone calls , he's gotta structure his time . You can't call him anytime you feel like it .

So if you love Warren and are inspired by who he is and what he does , we are asking he is not asking , but we are asking on his behalf if you could send that to us in writing , either at the email stories at lockdowntolegacycom , or you can send it to . Once we have the website , our phone number will be on there . You can text that feedback to us .

We would really like to pass along people's words . We're giving him word of mouth right now of what everybody's saying , but it would mean a lot to him if we could pass it along to him in a tangible way that he could print and put up in his cell block or those kinds of things . So I wanted to make that ask .

But things like this are when times get tough . He can turn on and read back through his words . I know , remy , that you talk a lot about how that got you through some of the hardest times , or rereading your letters . It was a huge .

That was the thing you were always gonna have in your box , like you were gonna make sure that those letters and photographs came with you no matter what , even if you lost everything else , and so those things mean a lot to people on the inside and we want to pass the level on .

I actually had a call with Warren a couple of days ago and it was unscheduled , so it was kind of impromptu and we didn't get a chance to record . I'm glad we didn't , actually , because it was very vulnerable . He was very vulnerable and he came to me for some advice which I was really proud of that I could be that person for him .

But it led me to want to talk about . We had a long conversation about it .

So I don't know if we'll follow up me and him about that , but he's going through the same thing that I went through and when it is , when I was in prison and I would call my mom , my mom and my dad would always tell me how proud they were of me and it kind of I don't know , it just weirded me out because I was like what are you talking about ?

I'm at the lowest point in my life right now . There's actually nothing I felt that they had to be proud of and my mom would say like no , no , no , like you've made all this change , I'm so proud of the man you've become and I would kind of downplay it Like that's who I am . I kind of just downplayed and shrug it off .

I don't like to receive praise , which is kind of weird , but I would tell her that the change that I made is untested . It's kind of like you ever heard the term battle tested . You like being in the military , you go and you shoot guns and crawl through the mud and you run 50 miles a day , but until you go to war you don't know what war is like .

And so I would tell her that like it's untested , it's untested Until I'm back in the situation like I was when I went to prison , until I'm in a situation where money's tight and stuff's going on and I'm like , yo , I'm gonna go out here and make some bad choices . I got people around here that's telling me we can do this and we can do that .

And I'm like , yeah , let's go do it . Like until I'm in a situation like that where I can be like , nah , bro , that's not for me , get out the car and walk , you know . Or , day in and day out , make good choices , that like build something , like . Until then I'm just in here in this isolated environment .

You know , sure , I've made change , but I don't have any hard decisions to make , you know . And so he had told me that he was feeling kind of like blah , like unmotivated , and he was just like why , like I've done everything in here I can do , like I'm going to school program and teaching other people , teaching other people who are going home ?

How to be successful . You know , and he's like now it's just kind of like what reason do I have to keep going ? You know , and I told him I was like yo . It's pretty much like how I was feeling like the change is untested , you've got all this stuff going on and he constantly feels like he has to be doing something productive constantly .

If he's doing it , it has to be something that is gonna benefit him when he comes home . That's how he feels . I went through the same exact thing . I was ready to throw it all away just to prove that point to the administration . I'm not going to scrub no toilets . I'm not going to like , if that shit can't go on my resume , I'm not doing it .

So I was only a student and I was a tutor and stuff like that . So it's like the stories are just parallel and it was just like listening to him . I kind of just stopped and was like , why do you have to be doing something ? You know like coast for a little bit . And it's really given him this advice .

It was like taking that advice in at the same time as soon as it came out of my mouth , which is why I didn't pick up an extra day to work to this week Because I was like you don't have to always be going at 100% , you don't have to always be doing something that is going to give a return .

Just have an easy day , take it easy Like you've done enough to where , if you stopped for a month , it would not diminish your reputation , your record , your resume at all . So take some time for you . And he was like damn , you're right , recharge your batteries , wake up late , whatever you got to do .

Because she was talking about her struggles with her own mental and physical health and she was like I had to realize that that was because I was trying to put in more time at work . I purposefully took some days off of my schedule and I've been happier .

I've been more energetic , I've been available more to my friends and family outside of work and my work hasn't slowed down . I was able to fit all of those things into the days I allocated , so why do I have to pick up this additional day ? But it's interesting because we feel like we have to glorify hustle culture and hustling is cool . Hustling is great .

Side hustles are cool . It's like all the rage right now , and I was on LinkedIn the other day and I saw that Damon Johnson is that the guy on Shark Tank ?

And if you have to take more than that , we need to celebrate people who are just showing up just as much as we celebrate people who are going 100 miles an hour , like both things can be really helpful to each person . So it caused me to change my email signature .

I love my email signatures , but usually I would say I hope you have a productive week or something like that in my signature bar and I was like you know , not everybody needs a productive week , some people need a restful week . So I've edited it to say I hope you have a productive or restful week , whatever you need .

And people have actually emailed me back and reading it and they're like thank you for the permission to step away . And I'm like we shouldn't have to give ourselves permission to step away , like we should view rest like drinking water . Our bodies need it and we wouldn't fault ourselves for having an extra glass of water . We would praise ourselves .

So why are we faulting ourselves for grabbing a couple of extra hours of sleep or sitting and reading a book rather than vacuuming or trying to look for the things that are going to go on a resume to get out , when sometimes our body just needs to rest and prepare for that transition right , because eventually it's coming for him .

So preparing your body for that is just as important . Yeah .

Overdoing , so I mean , like I said , I didn't pick up any extra work today . Man , I was like , yeah , matter of fact , I called and was like yo , I need a vacation day . You know , I'm going to a soccer match . And I was like , hey , I just laid in bed and played video games with my wife .

Yeah , but yeah , we're going to make it . That's recharging and batteries . I can come back and hit it harder .

And you know , for Warren you know he's in my professional opinion of knowing him , you know , being the expert I am I'm going to say like he's got nothing but success headed his way , like all he needs is the door to open and he's off to the races .

Man , there's not a doubt in my mind that he is going to be successful and have everything that he wants .

So when he's on the outside , I can't , I can't wait . It's going to be great , but it's equally important that he takes time to rest right now . Yeah .

He's one of those people who's always in his own zone , you know he's , he's always on the move , but he's kind of he reminds of you , kind of like people just come up and talk to him for like out of nowhere , like and they're just like amen yeah .

And next thing , you know , if they're in the story about their grandma and their girlfriend and whatever it's like , how do we get here ? But they , like anybody who talks to him , leaves with like something valuable . They leave better than they came .

We were just at the gas station and we were just getting drinks and this guy started telling me about his daughter and her art projects and showing me pictures . Never met this guy .

I haven't listened to the full episode yet , so I want to put that disclaimer out there but it's an episode with Reuben Jonathan Miller and he is a sociologist and he's a professor and publishes a lot , but he did this episode where he talks about how he believes that life after incarceration is just another prison , and I think that that's an interesting little

tidbit . That's what the title of it is , which I think is really fascinating . But I think that he frames it really is like he starts out with a heavy hitter and he calls it like the ghost that haunts you , but he goes on to kind of talk about how incarceration creates this alternate life path .

When someone goes home , we've accused somebody of a crime and so now they're on this like it reminds me of like the , the loser bracket in the , like the tournaments . Do you know what I mean ? Yeah , not that I don't want it to sound like I call it everybody who's coming home .

But it's like this B bracket where they're trying to get to the , the final game , and then everybody else who hasn't been accused of a crime or you know they take a different right , and so he kind of proposes it as this ghost that haunts you , because you're now on this Alternative , alternative pathway In terms of membership in society , in terms of like

citizenship , in terms of rights , in terms of opportunities and , I think , with our legacy series , especially highlighting how people were successful despite the circumstances or in spite of either way you want to frame that

. I Wondered how that hit for you , if it does feel like the ghost that haunts you or creates this alternative pathway , or if it's like that can be true for some and not for others , or I just wondered what your opinions were on that .

But it has , you know it has . And so when he said , like the ghost that haunts you , I was like I don't know about that , but the way you just framed it , as you know , you have to take this alternative life path .

It's like , oh , I can understand that , because no matter how successful you are , at once you come home you can't really take the the path that everybody else takes . You know the conventional path . You can't have your choice of any job .

You know , even if you do bully your way in there to an opportunity , a lot of people didn't have to bully their way in there . So right , you know . And If you wanted to be a nurse but you got a drug conviction , now you're looking at different . You know career paths . You know if you wanted to be whatever .

So , yeah , I guess you're right and I've even had that happen in the sense that there were some jobs that said no , they wouldn't hire me Trying to get life insurance , you know ?

You know , I know life insurance is additional , but it's like there's a discrimination there . There is talk about how that went for you .

So I had already tried to get life insurance , which was weird because you know , my benefits through my employer were like , yeah , don't matter , it doesn't matter , like here you go , mm-hmm .

But when we were going on vacation I tried to get life insurance and they were basically like we can give you Accidental death and dismemberment , but it's gonna be at a higher fee I mean a higher , higher price and whatever . And they couldn't give me like Conventional life insurance , like they wouldn't do it right .

And when I asked why , like you , I tried to get for you , they were like , oh yeah , she can get like two million dollars for 30 bucks a month . Yeah , I'm like what ? Yeah , but but for you , you know , we can give you this accidental death and this , this , this memory , and it's gonna be like you know , $200,000 of coverage for like $80 .

I'm like , oh fuck , does that ? How does that even make sense ? And they told me that it's because Having a criminal history Makes me the . Let me see how I should put this . The insurance companies view me as high risk . Yes , they consider me to have a high risk lifestyle , even though I don't have any recent or current trouble going on .

Right but the fact that I have a felony on my record that is 15 years old . They still consider that to be high risk and I was like this is stupid . So they got mad because I was like yo just cancel this .

You're gonna have to figure out that alternative route . You know You're gonna have to be the best in that other bracket and make it to the top . Anyway , right .

I think it's giving yourself permission to Feel sad about those things when they happen and to be able to move on right , like it's uh , because if you let every conversation with a life insurance company Break you , those things are going to happen over and over again and while there are lots of advocates trying to change the system , trying to change those policies

From a top-down approach , it doesn't happen overnight . So you , the individual , will have to make sure that you have supports and things in place to hear that no and successfully Move on . But I , you know , I that phrasing that he used this ghost that haunts you , or that incarceration , life after incarceration , is just another prison .

I was like , wow , those are really , those are heavy . Right , those are some heavy phrases , but I didn't feel like it was probably totally untrue .

But when you bring that shit up in public and you see people kind of like scoot over in their seat and you know lady clutch your purse and you know the cliche , it's like bitch , you wasn't in danger 20 minutes ago , quit playing . Don't feel like you're in danger now . You was over here chatting it up with me . You know like quit playing .

But I mean that is how it is .

It shows that again , you can make your way to the end of that bracket right , like you can be the victor of this of your life , still in this alternative pathway , and I think that that's important to highlight that , even though these things happened , it doesn't necessarily inhibit your future in the ways that you think , and so it's not a .

I don't wanna diminish the struggles that people go through , especially after coming home from incarceration , but I think what's been really cool about this legacy series and hearing you do these interviews this summer because I've gotten to be a listener like everybody else , so that's been fun for me Is , like I love to hear people's why and hear the passion behind

this thing that they're doing . Or , like you know , I love Jeremy talking about his business and I love you know it's all I've been talking about here the goals I set for myself and I was gonna make them happen no matter what , and I think that you know Cardell has been hugely inspirational and kind of like .

Here are the things that hit home for me , and we've just had so many others , but I really have appreciated folks demonstrating how sure I might be on this alternative pathway .

These things may not be accessible to me , but here's how I made Lemonade out of lemons kind of a mentality , so that especially folks who are still incarcerated that are listening to our podcast can be like okay , yes , two things can be true at the same time . I can be formerly incarcerated and I can be successful .

I mean , to be honest , when I got out , you know , I did a whole lot of planning on the inside , but when I got out and got actual , like access to the internet , I had to like go and reevaluate , like if the plans that I made were too stifled because I didn't have a lot of resources , to you know , at my disposal .

And so , in like one day , I probably had hundreds of Google searches like can a felon be a realtor ? Can a felon sell life insurance ? Can a felon , you know , be a doctor ? Can a felon be a lawyer ? Can a felon be a cop ? Can it be like ?

I mean like we've obviously had really great trips and I've been able to travel widely , but but there are some places I would like to go that I can't , that you can't , right , I wanna go to Japan , japan's like .

And yeah , it's kinda unfortunate , but in understanding that and not letting yourself get defeated by the doors that were closed and seeing that it was just one door that closed and there's a lot of other doors that you haven't opened yet or looked at , you know like , look at those other doors .

Yeah , it might be a different path than you thought you'd be on . But I mean , if I look at my life right now and I can honestly say actually it's interesting , because at the dinner table tonight you were like is this how you saw your life ?

We got food being passed all over the place . And can you pass ? The ketchup Chips hit the floor , oh yeah . So I said to you is this what incarcerated you imagined life to be ? You said yes , which I don't know if you were just being a smart alec or no it is .

When I was younger , I wanted to go to the military , which is obviously off the table now , but it's like , oh well , I mean , don't get me wrong , I still think about that a lot . I mean , I play Call of Duty and I'm sitting here like damn , I could have been out here doing this .

But I'm like I consider myself to have found success in a whole different avenue and I'm very grateful for it . I'm very grateful that I didn't give up and just like man , fuck it , they ain't gonna take me . So I'm gonna be out here in these streets , so I'm good . I hope that . What's his name ? Again ? The guy at the other podcast .

He goes on to talk about how he mostly talks about it from the innocence capacity of like a lot of 95% of court cases and employee deals , and so we've basically sentenced somebody to live a life on this alternative pathway , whether knowing they're guilty or not , right , so he talks about it from that perspective , which I think is it's not the perspective we're

talking about it from , but I think it's an interesting angle on it . But yeah , I agree with you . But yeah , thanks for sharing your thoughts . I brought it up to you earlier .

I'm gonna take your podcast out too , man , I brought it up to you earlier and I was like no , no , no , let's not talk about it , let's talk about it on the when we record , cause I really am interested in hearing what you have to say . So yeah .

So I understand that , but it doesn't change how I feel about the value of that . You know the value of resilience and determination and you know being able to hear no and , depending on how the Noah structure , either keep on going or go back and re-vow your plan like , but don't give up . Yeah . So like just the value of that man , it's , it's .

It's amazing and it's something that I hear recurring in everybody I talked to in this summer legacy series . Every single person is like man , I was in this bad situation , or somebody told me . No , people were like how are you going to do that ? And I just kept going . Mm , hmm .

Like , even if I had to cut them off just to stop hearing that dumb shit , like I don't care , I'm going to keep going after this . And then those be the same people that come back and be like man , man , I'm proud of you , man . Good job , man , get the hell out of here . You know that's how it is .

But , I mean to be honest , you got to be your biggest cheerleader , that's right . You got to be your biggest motivator . You know you can't depend on nobody . Come wake you up in the morning and go after your dreams .

And now I can transit , like , if you don't give yourself permission to process and then move on like , that's where that healthy coping mechanism comes in , that's where giving yourself permission to step away comes in . That's where leading with love comes in . It's all . It all culminates into this ability to , this resilience that you're talking about .

It all comes from being able to process . Okay , I heard a no . Here's my reflection on that and here's how I'm gonna move forward .

Whatever my way of thinking was like well , I'm gonna be successful and you're gonna see it and you're gonna come to congratulate me or wanna be a part of my life and I'm gonna relish and I ain't gonna act a ass . You know I ain't gonna turn you down , be spiteful or nothing .

I just feel like the success itself is like revenge and affirmation that you know I am worth it , and the fact that this person is coming back offering me a job , coming back wanting to be in my life , like yeah , it's like let your actions speak for themselves kind of mentality .

Yeah , I mean , that is proof , Like the fact that people come back , or the fact that opportunities that you sought out and were denied and then they come seeking you , it's like , oh , so I was worth it .

To be honest , they just didn't wanna take that risk or they didn't wanna invest in you and then run the risk of you not you know , coming through to your full potential .

But , like I said , you gotta be the one that , believing you the most , first Put some skin in the game , Like , okay , I understand you don't wanna put your feelings and your dedication and support on the line . Let me put it all on the line . I'm gonna go after it .

You know it's just like business when you write up a business plan and you go ask for funding and they're like okay , well , what have you done ? How many sales are you getting ? What's your plan for this ? Have you ain't done that shit ? They're like well , we don't feel like we can contribute at this time . So you know it ain't personal . It's business .

I look at everything like business . Debbie just told you I consider everything in dollars and cents .

I once told my mom that I viewed the whole world as a stock market and like , including relationships , like every single person in my life has a stock value , and it's not all money or what you can do for me , but everybody has a value , including myself , and I look at everybody as if I can't use you , you're useless , and I , you know people are like , oh

man , they just used me , like I want you to use me . That's what I'm here for . You know , I got all these good qualities , I got all these good skills . Use me , don't miss use me , cause when you misuse me , man , your stock value start dropping and I might have to just ax you for real . Send somebody else to the .

I liked those nights .

I'm talking about Pell grants you can go back and listen if you're interested in those but I have worked really hard , especially during candidacy , to spend time in person with people like try to do quick lunch dates to take a break from being in this closet and writing . I write in our master closet .

For those who don't know , I've got a desk in here and that started in the pandemic and I have not transitioned out . So you know I put a little investment in myself . I got myself a standing desk that goes up and down and a walking pad so I can walk while I write .

But I've also just been really intentional with my time to try to like schedule a coffee date or schedule a lunch date with local folks that I can get to . I've tried really hard to text my friend who lives in Fort Wayne more frequently than I have in the past , just because I wanted to try to stay connected and have a relationship .

But it's coming to an end . My exam ends in the middle of September and I will defend in October , and so I hope to hear in the fall , come back and reintroduce myself as a PhD candidate . That's my goal . My dissertation topic is set and that's really exciting for me , but that's all that's going on . You know , kids are back to doing all their things .

It's back to school time . We are prepared for next week when our kids go back to school . We've got a fifth grader , a second grader , a pre-K and a preschooler this year , which is exciting , but all the sports are starting back up . We've got a son in soccer and we've got kids in gymnastics , we've got a swimmer and a pianist , and it's time . It's time .

But it would be really great to get some first-hand experiences in here . Would love to have them . So yeah .

We utilize those funds to kind of do things like market and keep the website up and running .

So our ultimate goal is is to just make this accessible to folks who need it .

Your way out to legacy is recorded at Kohatch in their lovely audio file room . Thanks for your scholarship . Audio engineering is done by our very own Remy Jones . You can reach us with any feedback , questions , comments or share the love by emailing stories at lockdown number two legacycom . Stories at lockdown to legacycom .

You can reach out there too for a free sticker , and you can find us on Instagram and Twitter with the handle at Lockdown 2 Legacy and on Facebook at the Lockdown 2 Legacy podcast . Thanks for listening . Now let's find the cable driver for the repair we needed .