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And I'm Mala. And today we're talking about the United States versus CO. As you guys know, over the years, as there have been celebrity cases, whether that be dep heard, Megan Thee Stallion and Tory Lanez, we have talked about the case, the issue, and the chatter surrounding it, especially when we're thinking about issues regarding feminism violence against women that have been popping up in these cases in particular.
And this is obviously such a momentous case because of who P Diddy is in the culture. He has permeated culture for decades now, beyond music, fashion, reality TV. He even had an alcohol brand, so he has really had his hands in a lot of things. And we're going to be talking about all of that today.
And we've seen a lot of coverage of us versus Combs all over TikTok, especially as it relates to testimony by Cassie Ventura, and we're going to talk about Cassie. We're going to talk about all that TikTok and internet chatter. But to begin just to sort of ground us in the case in what's going on. This is a federal
sex trafficking and racketeering case from NBC News. Combs faces five criminal counts, one count of racketeering conspiracy, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison, two counts of sex trafficking by force, fraud, or coercion, which carries a maximum sentence of life in prison and a mandatory minimum sentence of fifteen years in prison, and two counts of transportation to engage in prostitution, which carries a maximum sentence of ten years in prison. So important to note this
is a federal case. This is the federal government filing these charges against one Sean P. Diddy Combs.
Yeah, and I mean and to get to a federal case, I mean that means it was years of him being investigated secretly until there was enough evidence against him. Yeah.
And the Feds have a very very very very very high conviction rate. I think that they really wait until they have everything they could possibly need to file charges against somebody like Shaan Comms. And this is a case that was taking place all over the country, across state lines and also internationally. So for those who maybe have been wondering, like why is the case laid out the way it is, those are some of the reasons.
Right, I think. Aside from p Ditty being a media mogul, a music mogul, if you will, is the relationship, the very public relationship he had with Cassie Ventura, who was a favorite of ours growing up. Right. We know Cassie Ventura as the musician, as the artist, as the singer, and she was in a long term relationship with p Diddy and was one of the first people to testify against him in court, in addition to a previous settlement that she had with him.
And So for those tuning in right, maybe you were fans of Cassie, maybe you're just like finding out about who she is now because Cassie hasn't made music in a really, really, really long time. You know her as a recording artist, as a pop star, but her hit single that I think people might label her as a one hit wonder, Me and You, which came out in two thousand and six, a very long time ago. It's almost it's over twenty years at this point.
Do you remember when ringback tones were a thing where you would call someone and you could hear a song playing. Yes, my ring back tone was Me and You by Cassie.
She was That's almost very popular. The girlies were living for Me and You and she the video was very simple. It's her like in a dance studio by herself, you know, doing a little light choreography. Gorgeous girl. And at some point, not too long after she released Me and You, she is spending a lot of time with Ditty and eventually it's established that they're in some sort of a relationship. And they're photographed together all the time. They're at award shows,
they're on red carpets, they're at clubs and premieres. She's deafinitely on his arm. But no music is coming out, right, and the year's pass and the year's pass, and of course he's this music mogul. He has at some point established himself as being this like eye for talent, this producer. He has like making the band these reality TV like music competition shows. He is like front running Danity Kane, which was a popular girl group. So he has the means to launch stars and to make music happen for
aspiring artists. But Cassie, who's dating him for all these years, there's no music. And I think, as the public, we were all at one point or another just like, well, I guess, well, I guess she just isn't making music anymore.
Right, there was something more insidious going on in the relationship. And it's very important to note that Cassie was very young when they first entered into their relationship, So we're talking like eighteen nineteen years old and spent almost a decade with him, right, And so to consider like maybe the manipulation that was going on, the type of grooming that was going on is also really important to contextualize their type of relationship.
Yeah, I don't think that I've really heard that term grooming with regards to Cassie and Ditty over the course of this case. I think people are recognizing the trafficking side of things. I think people are recognizing the abuse and the assault of it, all the force and the coercion.
But I think the point you make is really important that she was a teenager, she was nineteen, and he was definitely like in his thirties when they started dating, right, And one of the other witnesses in this federal case testified that he at some point had heard Ditty say with regards to Cassie, she's young, she's multiple like, she's perfect.
And Cassie herself, in her testimony over the course of this trial, testified to the fact that when she first started spending time with Ditty like he taught her about oral sex and about matters of sex and sexuality. I think that she was rather young and inexperienced, and so when we hear about the interpersonal side of things, how young she was. The sexual relationship that was beginning to form.
But then also that she's from Connecticut and she was probably out here in LA by herself, and that she entered into a record deal with him in bad Way Records, so he had a lot of control over her professional live, her music career, and then eventually her personal life.
Yeah, and I think that is really important to note because there is that power and control and that dynamic that exists within that relationship that may not exist in every type of relationship, right, And so that I think is really important to consider when we're thinking about Cassie and her lived experience as his partner and as a person.
Absolutely, and as others have pointed out, Sean Combs had his family like in his home with him, Kim Porter, the mother of some of his kids, those children, but Cassie wasn't like living in the home. He was like paying for Cassie to live in a one bedroom apartment somewhere in LA And Cassie testified in court that all the year she was with him, like a decade, basically that she never met the family, She wasn't around the family,
She was sort of kept separate from the family. So there was also a dynamic there of him sort of like having her on hold. And she testified also that there were times where like he would just show up at her place and let himself in, like it wasn't really her place, that she wasn't really allowed to keep him out of it, and so he just had all
this access to her. And it sounds like, per her testimony, she spent a lot of time in the studio recording music that just never ever ever got released, like he was giving her busy work, like keeping her busy, but sort of just like at his dispose.
Yeah, that's intense. Yes, that is so intense. And this is a case that I have lightly been following, Like I've listened to other coverage. I've read other articles, but I haven't actually I haven't listened to the actual testimonies.
It's a lot, it's a lot. And so this is also something that has been interesting to witness the way that the coverage has unfolded a over broadcast television. There are some news stations like ABC News They've had near constant coverage of the Ditty trial. There's a couple of podcasts out there covering the Ditty trial from different angles. And then you have like journalists who are covering the case, following the case and reporting back on TikTok on the
personal accounts like Tore. Tore famously did one of those explosive interviews with R. Kelly back in the day. He's still reporting, but Tore is reporting and commenting on his own personal TikTok account. Then you have TikTok in influencers like Stephanie Sue and others who are like somehow in the courtroom.
Yeah, yeah, they have like a press badge, like a journalist's badge.
Yes, And so they're going back and reporting what they're witnessing and observing, like Stephanie Sue on her podcast Rotten Mango and then also on TikTok. And then there are TikTok influencers who are giving like constant updates on the trial on TikTok. But it's unclear where they're getting their information from. If they're in the courtroom, if they know someone in the courtroom, if they're reading transcripts every day, and it's a a lot of testimony, it's like a
lot to comb through. It makes me wonder like people who are not career journalists, who are not like outright getting paid to do journalism work, Like is their coverage getting them? Like are they gaining a lot of engagement? And like TikTok dollars?
I would assume it's the coverage, right. I can imagine that's an incentive for some of these folks on TikTok to kind of go in and do that coverage for their own channels or platforms.
Yeah, that leads into like our kind of big picture conversation for today, is these types of court cases as journalism or as entertainment I should say m hm, so that if we're not getting it through like the more traditional news channels, those updates by like you know, TV anchors on Channel four.
You know, there is a type of training that goes into being a court reporter and like reporting on a case, especially of this nature where maybe people are not trauma informed and are also reporting what they're hearing or what they're seeing via other social media platforms or news outlets as well, and kind of regurgitating the information that they're seeing.
And I when I hear other people talk about it, like just in general, right, not necessarily friends or family, but just the chatter right of being online, is that this case in some ways is very sensationalized because of who it is.
Yeah, and also like.
The term we were talking about this yesterday, like the term freakof right, and how that's kind of become a part of our lexicon when it's actually describing something horrific and some type of exploitation, depending on who you were
in that room. And so I think that that is also something really important, where the freak off is kind of become in some way like selecious and in some ways a joke depending on who's using it and how they're saying it, but it's actually a representation of something horrific, depending again, like who you were in that room. Don't go anywhere, locomotives. We'll be right back.
And we're back with more of our episode. Notably, Sean Combs is not being charged with like a domestic violence charge. This is not a matter of Cassie going to the local police department and filing a report because he abused her in like a domestic violence context. This is the federal government filing these sex trafficking charges against him, and she's brought in as a key witness to the crime of sex trafficking right as a victim of the crime, she also was a witness to the crime, and that's
the role that she's playing on the stand. So every time she's testifying about her experiences and the freak offs, she's specifically testifying as to every time she was trafficked. So every freak off is an instance of trafficking, of assault, of abuse, of coercion, and everything else that was being
done to her. And it also raises the question, like all the play by plays, all the specifics about the baby oil and the male escorts that were being hired, and the wigs that she had to wear, and like the candle, like all these specifics about the way that these trafficking situations were set up, why does the public need to know? Oh? Right, do we need to know?
What difference does it make if we know the specifics of how she was trafficked in a federal case like this, you know, why does that information need to be communicated?
Yeah, that's a good point, because there are certain things that are specifically left out for the public to not know, and this is one of those things where it feels like everything is kind of being shared. Yeah, you know, and with each testimonial it seems like it's getting worse and worse what's being shared, and it's just available for all of us, Which goes back to the original thesis, right, that like this is part of entertainment for some people.
Yes, there's like some very it's like true crime entertainment value. Yes, where it's horrifying. I can't look away. A woman is being horrifically abused, can't look away. We're gonna like comb over every detail of how it happened. This comes up every time there's a public trial with a famous woman at the center who has been abused or manipulated in
some way. You know, I don't know what the solution is because there's this other piece of like there's the freedom of the press, of course, and freedom of speech, and so it's also not a matter of oh, influencers should not be spreading updates. It's more like, why are these specific updates so drive so much traffic?
Yeah?
You know, and I feel like the folks reporting, No, these are the details that people are going to tune in for.
Yeah, it's part of that sensationalizing. We're gonna hold onto these details that we think are going to get people like riled up or going in some way.
Yeah, and with every new witness it also is just so it like reveals how many people were around and were witnessing or were even involved, because he was not pulling all this stuff off by himself, right, Like this is a very elaborate scheme of his that involves a lot of people in a lot of different locations for many many years. So he had assistants and staff, and there were like hotel staff everywhere they went, you know, there was security guards, there were like other people he
partied with, other people he victimized. Just the sheer number of people who can speak to what they witnessed and how much of it is like really wild.
That's partly why this case is so big for the public. Right. But in addition, like why the federal government is trying Shawn Combs because of the magnitude and the scope of people involved.
Absolutely and like it it goes back to also like there have been over the years other times where we've heard about Seawan Combs acting out violently towards people, Like when his son was playing football at UCLA and Shawn Combs throw a kettlebell at the UCLA football coach because he was angry. He had some dispute with him over his son and how his son was being played. So he's somebody who I think everybody sort of knew for years. But he has a temper that he has violent outbursts
that like his parties get out of control. Like it seemed like there were a lot of people who were in the know and in on his secrets that weren't so secret.
Right I mean, And I think notably one of those people was Aubry Oda from Danny Kane, and she has been talking about Sean colmbs P ditty for twenty years. Was like sounding the alarm when she was with Danny Kane and was removed from the group that she was in, and she was part of making of the band as well. And so she in an interview with people said she does not feel vindicated because of course this is horrible, like what the victim's experience and how they were exploited.
But there is like, Okay, people are finally listening to something I've been saying for twenty years.
Yeah, it's like there's no winning here. No, there's there's no way that anybody can feel like victorious, even the people who are now coming forward and testifying a because they've probably been subpoenad, like they have to write.
And that's a good thing to note too, is that Cassie Ventura was subpoenad.
Yes, they're not like volunteering to go testify. You don't testify in a federal case like this unless the Feds knock on your door right until you went to show up, you know.
And that was something that I saw online too, And this is not the dominant narrative that I've seen, but I have seen a couple of these people kind of posing this question, like if you're wondering why Cassie is speaking out now even though she received a settlement, kind of like that, oh, that's not enough for you type of sentiment, right, And the answer back to that is like, well, she's being subpoenad because this is a federal case. This is not a dB case. This is not Cassie versus
p Diddy. No, this is a federal case. She's a subpoenad.
It's the United States, right, it's all of us versus shawan Combe.
When you put it that way, it's the people. It is the people.
It's the people versus shawan Combe. These were crimes against not just one person, but a slew a whole group of people, And I don't think that we really know all of the victims, no wrapped up in all of this. We know some of the big names. We know Cassie.
There's a Mia now like a former personal assistant who has been testifying under a different name Mia, who also has testified to like horrible working conditions of violent outbursts that she endured from Combs, assaults that she endured from Combs. So I think that this is just the tip of the iceberg in a lot of ways.
Don't go anywhere, lokamotives.
We'll be right back, and we're back with more of our episode.
Prior to the trial, there was a journalist who also went on record and talked about how when she was working at Vibe and was profiling Sean Combs, like how violent he was and how her computer was stolen because he didn't want the profile she was writing to be published and so like it goes back yeah, decades.
Yeah, he has retaliated against a lot of people and people have been afraid of him. Kid Cutty testified talked about his relationship with Cassie and how Shawn Combs didn't like it when he found out and Kid Cutty suspects that Shawn Combs broke into his house, opened up a bunch of Christmas presents, locked his dog in a room, and then later tried to set his car on fire
with a Molotov cocktail. Like, people have been really targeted by this person if they've done things that he doesn't like, which explains a lot of why there was such a bystander effect with his team, with his assistance in his security guards and people who testified to like witnessing him physically assault Cassie and other people, but they never said anything, or at least didn't say anything to Puff Daddy, like
to Shawn Combs, right because they were afraid. They were afraid that they would get home or the people that
they loved would get harmed. And this is how this cycle of abuse and violence continues, right, Especially a person in a position of power who pays everybody's salary, you know, who like has control over their their careers and they're under contract with him, and he maybe showers them with gifts and with perks and with niceties and things that make it so cool to work with him or to date him, and then the violent outburst happens, and it
is that cycle, that cycle, and then there's threats and coercion. Well, if you leave, you're never gonna you're never gonna work in this town again. If you leave, I'm gonna release all of these tapes that I took in our freak offs or or at this party or whatever I made you do. And then the night and then the gifts come back, and you know, you're honeymooning again, and Okay, maybe it's better now, and he feels sorry, but it
just continues on and on and on. So I'm sure Cassie wasn't the only one caught in that cycle with him. I'm sure even staff were caught in that cycle with him.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that you bring up the good point of like the power and control and the intimidation and the base under effect, because there were also instances during Cassie's statement that she there were times where she did consent to these quote freak offs, right, And I think that that's an important thing to note that consent can be withdrawn at any time. You know, just because you agreed to something one day does not mean you agree the next day or even that same night.
That same day, and so that is something I feel like nobody's the perfect victim does not exist, right, and so to I think maybe question the validity of her experience based on maybe consenting one day and not consenting another is not appropriate, right.
And it's also we have to complicate our understanding of consent because if it's consent only because you think something bad is going to happen, then that is a type of coercive environment, absolutely right, And I think one of the nuances And I'm glad that you brought up, you know, the idea of consent in this situation, because the defense, because there's so much evidence photo video and witness evidence, video evidence of his violence towards her and his coercion
and his retaliation. So the defense for Shan Combs, all they can really do is establish that she consented to everything and she wanted to participate in everything. So what they're doing is looking at some of the text messages that have been entered into discovery and saying in these instances, Cassie wrote, I'm always down for freak offs. I love our freak COFs. I love our fos when we both want them, and there have been I guess over the years,
moments where she wrote things like that. But then there's also entered into discovery emails that she wrote right basically pleading for him, like to love her. And she wrote emails to her mother, you know, like basically asking for help. And so it's not like you're saying it's not enough to say yes one time, especially if there's all these other things going on. Absolutely, you know, like did she really have a choice to say yes or no in her specific circumstance, I.
Mean, and even thinking about like your own personal life, like there are instances where we have or I have said yes when I haven't wanted to, but I know that this is important to my partners, so I'm gonna say yes, you know. And so these are like the the small moments that happen in relationships where you know, it's really challenged, like you said, really complicating what consent means. Those that power control dynamic may not be involved in
your relationship, but imagine if they are. And then the reasons that you're saying yes when you want to say no.
Yeah, And per Cassie's testimony, the freak off started when she was very young. They started dating at nineteen by twenty one, twenty two. He has her engaging in these freak Offs and the way that Cassie talks about them, which is why I think they are qualifying as a type of trafficking. She talks about them like they were a job, Like at some point she was full time with the freak Offs, like multiple times a week every week.
They're like benders. They're lasting two, three, four days, so she's spending her week engaging in the freak Off and then recovering from the freak Off. She's testifying to having like non stop UTIs basically for almost ten years, that like even the medication stopped working for her because it
was so chronic. And she's testifying to like basically having a roster of male escorts that they were calling so often she like knew them by name right, And she describes the freak Offs being like almost like plays that Diddy was directing, and there's acts and there's scenes and their sessions, and she talks about it like a straight up job, and that she was basically a sex worker for him after a while. And if you think about when it started, how she was so young and then
it kept going for all of her twenties. Basically, you know, there's no way that like that was her dream for herself and that's what she wanted for herself absolutely, you know. But she's under this ten album contract with Ditty and she wants to make her music. And the place that she lives is also like he's paying for it. You know, her family is across the country. It seemed like she was genuinely afraid to say no.
Yeah. I mean that really hits all the points of the power and control, right, the intimidation, the isolation, the economic abuse, all of it.
I think something to note too is there's different types of like human traffickers and pimps. Like I think people think of trafficking and they maybe think, I don't know, like narcos or like women who are like working on the street, right, But there's a lot of different ways
that women become trafficked. And so a few years ago I participated in this like human trafficking training by this anti trafficking organization called the Polaris Project, and they did a big study about second trafficking between Mexico and the
United States. And something that I learned in that sex trafficking training is that one of the types of traffickers is called like a boyfriend trafficker, and the way that you get involved with the boyfriend trafficker is through like dating and love and romance, and they romance you and it's the honeymoon phase and their person and they are your boyfriend and you are dating and it is romantic. Eventually that boyfriend says, well, if you love me, then
you'll do this for me. You know, you'll take this package for me and you'll like transport it through the airport, or you're going to do this little task for me, or you're going to sleep with this person for money, and it escalates until before you know it, you're in a full on trafficking situation. And it sounds like this is what happened with Cassie because she talks about being in love with him and loving him and them being
like an item. So it sounds like he like boyfriended her, exploited her into sexual exploitation.
Yeah, that's a lot.
It is a lot. It's fucked up, and our hearts go out to Cassie, who is very pregnant also by the way, while she's testifying.
With her third child with her third child.
By her husband, Alex Fine, formerly personal trainer to both her and Shawn Combs.
Oh, I don't think I knew that Shawn.
Combs hired Alex Fine to train them and is shortly thereafter, you know, Cassie and Alex Fine start to develop feelings for one another. She ends her thing with Diddy somehow, she like is able to get out of it. Yeah, not unscathed. Right, there were assaults and abuse and all kinds of stalking going on. But now she's married and she has her third baby on the way with her husband. This has also been interesting because as she's been testifying,
her husband has been in the courtroom. Yes, so of course, what's the commentary about her.
Husband she has to listen to, Well, what she quote did, what she did, not what she was put through, not how she was exploited, but her poor husband.
Her poor husband, and what do we think about that? Because it's like it's like this is so classic.
Oh yeah, right, I mean one patriarchy, one oh one rape culture, Like you know, it's it's horrible, and but it's also not surprising, right to hear that type of commentary like, oh, her, it's still centering the man of the poor husband, not poor Cassie, and she has to relive, be re traumatized and recount these details of a decade. But her poor husband, let's deflect, Yeah, and he has to hear this.
Yeah. And so depending on who you are, then it's because there are still Ditty supporters for sure. Not everybody is like is not not everybody is denouncing him and his actions, I mean, and.
That is is I think the history of any male celeb or someone of his caliber, right, even R Kelly like still has supporters. Oh yeah, right, Bill Cosby still has supporters. Notably, these are three black men, right, and so the racial dynamic is obviously very important when talking about this Johnny Depp, Johnny Depp has a lot of supporters, Kit Scott supporters, and poor amberhard was villainized so much. We also have an episode on that because that case, I feel to me that was one of the first
examples of like a TikTok case. Yes, was Amber heard versus Johnny Depp? Yeah, which it wasn't even versus them. It was a libel case, right, but it was positioned on social media as like Amber versus Johnny.
It was positioned that way. And in both of these cases it's so easy for the for a viewer who hasn't like looked into it because of the rape culture, because of the misogyny. Immediately, it's oh, Amber and Cassie like trying to destroy these men and bring them down, and why are they speaking up now? Johnny Depp filed a lawsuit against Amber heard Relibel because of an essay that she wrote that did not name him no, and then with this one it's the federal government bringing them
to court. But in both instances, it's like this woman at the center, who has been horribly brutalized, is like at fault for something always, always.
Always, I mean, And it goes to show that like there hasn't been a reckoning, a me too reckoning for all communities or subsets of the culture. Right. We saw it with the film industry in some capacity. We haven't necessarily seen it with hip hop and arts hip hop and music.
In the music industry, right, And so.
It's that that I don't know if it's a ripple effect, but it's like, not everyone has had their like their me too reckoning, Not each industry has had it yet. And in some ways this is a type of reckoning because of how big Shawn Combs is and how influential
he's been in the culture for decades. But this is like just the tip of the iceberg, and it's gonna take like other people in the industry to actually like not just be the bystanders and be like active in calling this out exactly before it gets to this point exactly exactly.
And you know this hunger to like make it by any means necessary, to like get on and to be successful.
I also think that that insane hunger to like get ahead in the industry drives so much of this this issue because whether we're talking about the staff right that maybe is like experiencing some like bystander effect and not acting because of all the reasons we've talked about, Like they're nervous, they have their own careers, they fear retaliation, they want to be successful in what they're doing, that maybe this has been a big break for them, right.
And then there's the talent at the center of it, and like young talent, impressionable talent you know, from all over the place, from different places coming out here in these instances to la like chasing a dream and then yeah, you think you got your big break, this huge mogul has taken a liking to you, but now you're like in their clutches and p did he also having been linked to some dubious like behavior with Usher, a young Usher right when Usher was like sent to like Puffy's
flavor camp, to like live with puff Daddy when Usher was a child. And also Justin Bieber also being linked to like nefarious shit with puff Daddy when he was a child.
Yeah, it really does put going back to these like crashouts in our previous episode. It really does put maybe a Justin Bieber into a different context in light you know, he was a child star and what type of exploitation did he experience in the industry.
Yeah, And it's one thing for adults even to be in these like wild ditty parties, but I feel like these kids were there too, you know. And so this is like this person has caused like multi generational harm when we think about the age range of these different people who have been in his who have been in his reach. So it really is a wild time decades in the making. Yeah, decades in the making. And it kind of seems like unfortunately in cases like this, one
victim is like never enough. Yeah, it's almost like there has to be.
There's definitely pile up absolutely.
Before action is taken. Thank you all for listening. This has been a particularly heavy episode. This case United States versus Combs is still all over the news and social media, and I anticipate that it will be for some time,
even after the trial ends. So please give yourself a break from scrolling, from taking in this information, and if you need resources, please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline one eight hundred seven nine nine Safe one eight hundred seven nine nine Safe and the National Human Trafficking Hotline which is at one eight eight eight three seven three seven eight eight eight.
Thank you for listening to another episode of lok at Dora Radio. I want to reiterate what Mala said. Please take care of yourselves, take a scrolling break, check in with your friends, check in with yourself, with your body, hydrate, and we will catch you next time.
Thanks you, Thos.
Lokata Radio is executive produced by Yosa Fem and Mala Munjos.
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