podcast, the show where we flip the real estate status quo on its head and put loan officers into the driver's seat. We give you all the tools, strategies, resources, and mindset needed to modernize your mortgage business and thrive. My name is Luke Shankula, aka Long Form Luke, and this is the Loans On Demand podcast. going on? Welcome to the Loans On Demand podcast, the show where we help loan officers flip the status quo on real estate agents.
And I'm excited because today we have Jackie Dunlap. She is the president and founder of NextGen Home Loans and also the Mortgage Calculator Training Program. I called her the process queen when she first got on here. So she knows everything about operations process, but I'm excited because I really think we're going to learn a lot on how to create a process oriented business as a loan originator, but also we're going to have some fun here. So welcome to the show. Thank for having me.
I'm super excited. Let's go. All right. Well, give us a little background. Obviously I gave you a little bit of a background there, but let's hear the real story. Why are you in this industry? Why are you still in this industry, to be honest? What got you in the industry as well? Yeah, so I had just lost my job as a payroll salesperson. I was looking for work, I really wanted to get into banking. In my mind, that would have been a teller.
I was a single mom at the time and tellers, I think made like 725 an hour. not going to work. And my mom came home one day and she was like, hey, I saw this job listing on Monster. I think she just said a mortgage person. I think you'd be great at it. And I was like, well, I'll fill it out. But, you know, they're not going to hire somebody like me. And I got my interview and was hired and spent four weeks in training, hit the floor, was the first one in my training class to close a loan.
Quickly was a top producer within the next month and the next month, top 5% of the company. And that led us into 2006. And then I went through a series of layoffs at different companies during the housing bubble crash. I a three and a half year stint working in a family business with my then husband's HVAC family business. And then got back into the industry in 2012. Was recruited to go work for Wells Fargo in 2012. They were launching a new web-based processing platform.
They were currently still doing mortgages in 2012 on their DOS-based system. So that was real fun. Yeah. You know, tab, tab, right, tab, tab, left. Right, right. That's crazy. That system crashed. And so they quickly started alleviating the workforce. I exit stage right, go into the broker channel. I go and work in a correspondent. So now I'm kind of getting exposed to different types of lending that I wasn't aware even existed.
So I did a little bit of correspondent, got some training as that company transitioned from a franchise branch to a different franchise branch. I learned a lot of what I know now through that training and then entered into the broker world. So I'd been in mortgage about five years before I had even understood what brokering meant. before I had even understood what I brokering spent meant.
my first five years in lending, I spent my first five years in lending, only doing doing purchases, refis, spared the daylights out living, of me. So really my first five years in the industry was a lot about learning. My career background is in training. I was a corporate trainer for two different companies. So I think naturally, I just, I wanted to learn and understand because I had filled the role of teaching people before that.
And so it felt really uncomfortable for me to not know how things worked. After that, getting into the broker channel and really learning that I became an independent third party processor for several years. And I rocked that world. You know, my loan officers loved working with me.
I was kind of given heads up on the largest real estate company in Colorado was going to be starting a mortgage side with an MSA and I should get it on the ground level, did that process them for a while and then went out on my own. Well, I had my MLL license in order to third party originate, but I started kind of originating and moving out on my own. And then in late 2016, I opened my own brokerage. So we're running on our eighth year in the brokerage this year.
So a little bit of movement there, but that's awesome. And that's how you learn. I mean, at the end of the day, I talk about this all the time. My current executive coach, he brings this up a lot. And he talks about this concept of you don't learn your lessons from success. You learn your best lessons from failures, right? And so, you know, obviously, there was a lot of turmoil there and not necessarily that you wanted to be in.
But, you know, the truth is, I mean, we're in a similar market now where there's just turmoil, there's things happening, and there's turnover in terms of, you know, especially if you're in the operations type roles, even on a sales side, right? I mean, companies are cutting loan officers, even if they are producing loan officers, right? Just depending on where you're at and things like that, right? So times we're in. Let's talk a little bit about process.
I know this might not be the most sexy thing for most people. But one of the things that I've learned, and I'm someone that's not a process oriented person. And I learned pretty quickly that in order to grow a business beyond just a single grind, sort of mentality is you have to create structure and process. And I don't think it always comes natural to entrepreneur type of people, because generally entrepreneurs that people are big thinkers, and not so much little detail oriented people.
So like, when you're training people on process and SOPs, and things like that systems, like what's kind of the mindset that you approach that with? Or how do you help them understand the importance of process? Yeah, a little bit of a unicorn, right? I am an originator. I'm an entrepreneur at heart, but I also have this knack for the process side of it.
So one of the unique things that I bring to the table is I intimately understand the struggles that the people who are the big thinkers, big pictures, the creatives, right? Great at sales.
I intimately understand the struggle that we have moving into this procedure place right having a system having an sop or an slp or you know slas any of that you know acronym language which basically just means having a documented an of the things that's really useful in places like that is you know we're so good at the crap that we just know what to do and so the problem is is then when we start to scale and grow and we have to train somebody and we get
in this, they were like, oh, it's just easier if I do it myself. Right. And really when you're operating at a high function like that, driving into the minutia of doing a standard operating procedure, like that's so brain just halting for people who are just go, go, go, go, go. And that's really more the issue. It isn't that you can't put it together.
It's like, I've got to slow my brain down beyond a place that I feel comfortable to write out item by item by item, because right, we've usually created such a muscle memory that so much of it happens just automatically for us. We were talking before and I said, you know, I liken it to really successful crafty trades person who knows their craft, you know, HVAC, plumbing, electricians. us. of times they end up leaving a company and starting their own business, you know, stereotypical,
right? Like they're the ones that show up in the white vans and they're great at their trade. But then as loan officers, like when we see them come in, it's like their finances are a mess. Their tax returns are a mess. Because they're great at their craft of doing, you know, HVAC plumbing, electrical, you know, whether it's concrete, painter, a tiler, but they don't know the ins and outs of running a business.
And I find a lot of loan officers also fall into that where people who are big thinkers start a brokerage for the company. And then it's like, oh, I know how to get all the business in. And then all of a sudden, we got all the business and we're like, shoot, we didn't build the foundation or the structure to support all this business. Now what? Right? we love to break the business is what we like to do. That's basically what I did.
I mean, I thought that I could just will my way to the next level. And I understood the importance of it. But you're right. I mean, it's not that we aren't capable of doing process and procedure. It's just that it feels like watching paint dry. Like it really feels like, why am I doing this? I can do it faster. But the truth is, you're never going to get beyond a certain point if you don't learn how to create systems. And obviously delegate is another thing.
But if you delegate without processes, you're most likely going to be disappointed. You're probably going to burn through a bunch of people and you're going to probably blame them when the truth is it's probably unfortunately you.
Most of the time when people fail it's a systems process management leadership problem not a people problem obviously there's exceptions to that rule but i think overall most humans want to succeed they don't want to freaking come in and screw you right right but if you don't have proper expectations and processes and procedures and i've experienced this myself right you know i have these like lofty expectations ofy expectations of people, but like, I didn't communicate them.
I didn't have the processes. I didn't have, you know, it's like, just figure it out because that's who I am. I figured stuff out, but not everybody's like that. So how do you sort of train that? how do you sort of train that? Well, so here's the other thing to keep in mind too, you know, in our business as loan originators, our name is our brand. Our name is reputation.
And so if you're great at selling and you're great at getting the app and you're great at having the conversation in order to keep your partners, your real estate partners, your referral partners, or your clients referring you, you get into trouble when you don't have processes in place. Right.
And then it's what happens is you're juggling all these balls and inevitably you're going to have to let one go to go deal with something over here because it's not in the workflow or it's part of that paint drying. Right. I remember being as a loan officer, you know, it got to the point where like doing things like ordering title and insurance was one of those, like, it just got to the point where it was like, so annoying to deal with. Right.
And in that place, like you said, you know, you're going to get so busy where you're not going to be able to handle it all. But also there's a decision to be made about how much volume do you really want? It's so easy in this industry that when volume is there to just say yes. And before you know it, you're running at a speed that you have no business running at or any desire to. So in 2020, I was on stage at Fuse and I said, hey, it's okay to be a small boutique brokerage.
But you have to make that decision and then know what your limitations are, right? easy But And there were a number of people that came up to me afterwards and said, I really needed to hear that. Because it's really easy to compare yourself to those around you and say, oh man, I'm supposed to be closing 20 units a month because so-and-so that I see and look up to is closing 20. So for me, somehow now that means success. Well, really what is success,
right? It's being able to perform on time, provide the service at the level that you say you're going to to your clients and your real estate partners. So how do we do things like that? I have two kids that have special needs under the dyslexia umbrella. And one of the tools that has been available to them that I was like, this is actually a really amazing tool is talking into Well, do things like talk into Google, some of their project instead of typing, because that works better for them.
And so some of the things that we can do for us transitioning into, right? Like if you ask me to tell you or give you a 10 step, how do you do this? I'm going to put that thing off so hard because the amount that I have to slow down my brain to actually do that and think about step by step by step, because I've been doing this 20 years, my muscle memory does stuff that, you know, I just know how to go in and do it.
One of the tools that's really helpful for those of you that are thinking about scaling or need to get a standard operating procedure or just a simple workflow in place, written and documented is when you're telling somebody else or talk to Google Sheets, like you're telling somebody else what you would do, and it will record all of that, then get a virtual assistant, send that stuff to a virtual assistant and have them type it out.
Then you can take that first edit and read it and make the edits. That's all the stuff that we don't have the capacity. And when I say capacity, it's more like patients. that that When a high functioning individual, I'm going to sort of tangent. And for those of you that are squirrel lovers, you will love the way that I just jumped to different topics. So let me scroll off on this for one second.
You know, a lot of loan officers get a bad rap as a lazy loan officer because they do an incomplete 1003. A lot of what I am out in the world of training, trying to explain to processors and even peripheral relationships like underwriters, it's never that a loan officer is lazy. If you have a loan officer that is sending you 1003 that doesn't have a lot or all of the information on you, you're getting so annoyed, let me explain something to you.
When you're a high functioning individual, you know that there are certain critical data points that you need to know if a file is approvable or not. All the other stuff is the minutia All the not. other stuff is the minutiae. That's the pain drying stuff. Listen, you know, Mr. Jones, I know that you started at your job eight years ago. I'm probably just going to put on the 1003-11, you know, what is it years ago? 2016. Right.
Mr. Jones most likely isn't going to be the type of person that remembers the exact day he started anyway, right? Do I need to know that exact date to know if the loan is approvable? No. Now, for the completion of the 1003 and to have an accurate 1003, we need to know that, but I'm not going to stop doing what I'm doing to wait and go find out and order the work number or call the HR and get the exact day.
You know, there's a lot of stuff that like we don't necessarily need to know in order to get a U.S. findings. And so what happens is if our job in sales is to go get the loan app and go get the deal really the technical components that make a loan work and say, hey, I've got to offload this somewhere else to someone who can do that so that I can get onto the next activity that's producing revenue. And that's really what you find. Now, are there bad loan officers who take bad apps? 100%. 100%.
But there's a difference in the data that's in it. And you should be able to tell the difference. Like if your loan officer is not putting certain things, like their start date on their job is not really one of them. But like, if you know that they started six months ago and that's the only job you have, yeah, no, that's not gonna fly. I at least need to know, where did you work the last two years? I gotta know that either way.
I gotta know if you have a job gap because how that job gap plays into it, right, is really going to determine either need to know, of loan or when we can move forward on a loan. That's more more of a big gap. But me not having the exact start dates in or me not having the account number or down to the cents on the bank statement, like that's more of a like, okay, we're beyond this hurdle. This is going to work. It's going to fly.
We're going to get through AUS on this, but I don't have all the details. So if you're that type of loan officer, or you're a processor working with that kind of loan officer, then you know that your job function is going to be a little bit different. You're going to be the T-crosser and right? And so if you're a loan officer looking to bring on support and you know that about yourself, this is really important conversation to have with a processor, right?
Hey, one of the things that I am looking to make sure that the person I bring on is going to fulfill is doing an overview of the 1003 for some of the accuracy in places where I'm not necessarily going to be getting that information on the phone call. So when you pull a VOE or when you're getting the VOE, one of the things that I want to make sure I communicate is that you're going back into the system and updating that either before or somehow in the process.
But sometimes, right, because that's something I would do as a loan officer. And I know I might bring somebody in and never explain that to them. And then we all been worse when all we all not updated. I'm like, well, I didn't update it. And they're like, well, I never had to do that at my other job. Right. And that's kind of kind of what you were saying before, right?
Somewhat of an unspoken expectation, but that's more of me having a muscle memory and knowing this about myself and doing my own stuff and then not really effectively communicating how that works or what my expectations are when I'm bringing somebody in because now my volume calls for operational support, which is processing. sure. And that's huge. It's important thing to note right there is there seems to traditionally be sort of like a butting of heads between sales and the operations.
I know I saw it when I worked in the mortgage company, there was always this like, you know, sort of like butting of heads, like, oh yeah, the sales people, this, that, and the other there, you know? And it's like, the one thing that I've learned as now being a leader of a company and like, you know, having employees and stuff like that is like, we all think so differently. Yes. Understanding that is like pivotal, right?
And understanding that like, okay, for me, if you come and like, you micromanage me, you tell me exactly what to do. You tell me all these things. I'm going to be like, dude, get out of here, like, just tell me what to do, I'll do it, I'll figure it out. Like, you don't have to give me exact steps, just tell me the thing that you need done, and I'll do it. Now, some people need exact instructions, what time does it need to be backed by? What does it look like? What is it?
You know, all of those things. And so it's like, those are some of the things that we have to understand that we all think differently. And the detail oriented person is going to think very differently. I used to think my ops person and I were fairly similar. And then as we've been working with my executive coach, we've learned, oh man, we are so, so, so different in just the way we think, right? Just the way she mind maps versus the way I do. She pulls out a process, I pull out a process.
Mine's like super easy. Hers is like super in-depth. I was like, yeah, an SLP should take 20 minutes. She's like, an SLP does not take 20 minutes. It takes two hours. And then I look at her SOP. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, that's because your SOP is very different than my SOPs. Okay. That makes a lot of sense.
So I don't know if you're familiar with these tools, but there's some tools like ScribeHow, Tango, things like that, that actually allow you to sort of like record your screen as you're scrolling through it. makes a literally create an SOP for you as you just go through Those it. are pretty cool Or tools. like another tool like You Loom. could're scrolling through And it'll it. actually literally create an SLP for you as you just go through it.
Those are pretty cool tools or like another tool like Loom. You can just talk through it. That's what I like to do is I just talk through it and I'm like someone else put the steps in place. I'll just talk through it. You can figure it out. You know, that's easy for me, right? I'm good on video and it just makes me more comfortable. I'll just do it that way. So there's some ways that you can avoid having to sit down and write down a super in-depth SOP.
Again, you can send it to an ops person that'll do it and put it all the extra details that maybe the detail-oriented person needs to see. So that's pretty cool. I want to talk a little bit about, you've grown a brokerage and you've grown your sort of coaching or training platform. What are some of the strategies that you have been using in terms of, I want to really talk about the brokerage and how have you been able to continue to grow, to keep business coming in, all that
kind of stuff? Like what are some of the strategies that you're using right now to business? Yeah, this is really key. And I'm a little bit more out of the box type of person.
So while I do think and I'll talk about this secondarily, while I do think that your referral partner relationships are key, I think that right now also consumer facing relationships are a bit more important because according to different data sources out there, the percentage of first-time home buyers and the percentage of applications that we're taking right now that are first-time home buyers are probably not going to come to you with an agent. So who's getting to them first, right?
So being consumer facing, meaning you're out there, you're pounding the pavement, you're working with clients before they have a realtor. That is the way I've always built my business. And I am a really high percentage of referral business, which means that my clients are talking about and referring me to everybody they know. So one really important thing is you've got to find ways to ask for
the business, right? So whether it's when you close the deal, while you're working in the deal, whether it's your post-close follow-up, you have to find a way that fits your personality to ask for business so that people know when to think of you. And this is one thing that's critically important that I learned when I was a part of BNI, which is your elevator pitch, right? Right. If people don't know when to think of you, they're not going to think
of you, right? Or they're just gonna be absent about this. So I'll just do this with you really quick. I had done a coaching call. And I said to everybody like, Oh, hey, how many of you have looked up a Christmas cookie recipe in the last three months? And everybody kind of looked at me and they were like, Oh, I didn't or I Yeah, no, I didn't. And I was like, okay, well, how many of you have asked a specific person for some sort of recipe
around Thanksgiving or Christmas? And if I said to you, if I want a baking recipe, could you refer me a recipe or something? And a lot of people raise their hand. And the point is, is like, who would you ask for this specific kind of baking recipe, you in know, your head? why Well, do kind of baking recipe you know in your head? Well, why do you know who you would ask in your head? It's either because they make the best cookie around, right?
And so that's always going to be the person you think of. Or because you've asked that person and they responded right away. But the whole point is, is like, if you don't know when to think of somebody, you Right. developing that on the real estate side, there are some really out of the box things that I think we can be doing right now. So first of all, we are handling objections that we've never had to handle. I don't care if you've been in the business 20 years like me, 30 years or five years.
How many people have had to find an objection for I really don't want to get my 3% rate? Nobody, we've never had 3% rates before, right? So sometimes your longevity in the industry isn't going to matter because we've never had these objections before. So let me tell you some things that have worked really well for me. I'm really busy right now. I know that is uncommon. Listen, I came off of 2023 as exhausted as everybody else.
I said, listen, I'm not in the capacity to make a goal for the whole 2024. So I broke it down into quarters. I said, for 2021, I'm going to leave three to five realtor reviews a week, right? On Google? never had tell you On Google? Google their name and whatever platforms came up first is where I left the review. Because if I'm a client, either researching their name or researching the area, that's where the client's going to get led to first. Right, right, right.
Whatever has the most, the main authority, right, is ultimately what you're doing. Okay, cool. But I was very intentional about the reviews that I left. So I had three key things that I wanted to make on these reviews. Number one, it was to identify myself as a lender. That was really important. Otherwise, I'm just Jackie Dunlap and I'm just some Google user leaving a review. Second was to do some sort of pertinent key word, right? So one that I left specifically was a relocation transaction.
So I specifically use the word relocation and explain why this realtor was great working with this client that was doing relocation to Albuquerque, New Mexico. So that when somebody is Googling those specific terms, this organically is going to come up high on the SEO algorithm and bring up my review, right? So now I've got relocation that I'm the lender. And then it's also important to me that I explain what was good about this transaction, right?
So for this particular realtor, they were really great at doing video tours for the client because they weren't here. Not all realtors do relocation and then they're like inconvenienced by doing these video tours. And some, that's what they specialize in. You might be a client looking at that and going, oh my gosh, I never even thought to ask if this person is willing to do video tours for me, right?
I just wanted to make sure it was using key searchable terms that people would be searching for in mortgages, right? Some of these realtors had no reviews or I was the first lender to review them. And sometimes some platforms will say, were you a buyer? I'll feel a little bit and say, yes, I was the buyer. And I'll say, hey, I represented the buyer as their lender, right? Because they will have a review process, right? So I'll put them on there.
But some of these agents have been in the business seven, eight, nine years, they had no reviews, they had not even a client review. So now I'm increasing my relevance in any sort of search algorithm. but I'm also bumping up theirs. Since I started doing this, one of the agents has actually sent me three referrals. to stop you there because I've heard a lot of cool strategies. Like that's the first time I've heard something like this. And this is a big brain move.
I mean, you just big brained it over here. That's incredible because like I've thought about like, okay, leaving reviews, things like that. And I'm assuming you're intentionally leaving reviews on people you've done transactions with, not just like random agents, right? Okay. So you're doing these, like I wouldn't even think about the SEO side of things, which is brilliant.
And then also, yeah, talking about the things that they were good at is brilliant as well, because like relocation, things like, man, that's blowing my mind right now that you're doing that. And that's cool because a lot of times, and I want to go back to what you said before, talking about consumer direct strategies, some way to get consumers. I'm sorry, but so many loan officers lie to themselves and lie to agents that say, you oh, know what? The realtor just gets all the
leads, right? Like I don't get any leads. Well, you don't get any leads because you don't do anything to try to attract consumers. What do they teach you as soon as you become a loan officer? Go work realtors. What do they teach you as soon as you become a realtor? Go work his fear of influence. Why do you think that realtors get the consumers? Yes, I get it. The home is a little more sexy part of the transaction. Of course, they want to see the home.
But I think loan officers have brainwashed real estate agents into believing that only real estate agents can generate leads. And that's not the truth. You've clearly been able to do that. You can work your past database, get referrals from those people, refer them back. That's one direct consumer strategy. Work your freaking database.
I mean, generate leads leads whether it be from paid whether it be from organic whether it be from reels tiktoks youtube videos right like there's a million strategies that you as a loan officer can implement to generate your own leads i'm sorry but most loan officers are being lazy they don't want to nurture people because here's the thing they're so used to getting referrals that are ready to buy in the next 90 days. But that's not how the buying journey works.
Home buyers do not wake up in the morning and think, I'm going to buy a home in the next 90 days. they No, wake up. They see a post from Susie who just bought a home. They're let me reach out to Susie. like, what did you have to do to Like, qualify? you Oh, need a 20%. you Oh, didn't need 20% down. You got a three and a half percent down. Man, I almost have that. I should start looking. Oh, let's check out Zillow. Let's look at realtor.com. And then all of a sudden, like six, 12 months goes by.
And now all of a sudden, they're with a real estate agent, they're nurturing them, and now they're ready to buy. And yet most loan officers have this sort of crazy conception that consumers should only be ready to buy in the next 90 days. random Yeah. And you know, a lot of times people, well, consumers, right, they have the tool of the internet. the kind of this, you know, it's this place where you can validate anything depending on how you search for it, right?
Coffee's great for you, coffee's bad for you. It depends on the language that you use in your search. Let's talk about real estate agents for a second because I had an agent last week call me. I'd sent him two referrals within 30 days because he operates in a specific part of town and he's very good. And our relationship is with specific transactions. He literally stops me mid conversation. He goes, what are you doing?
And I said, what are you made? And he said, well, you know, I'm talking to these other lenders. I'm like, Hey, you know, like, do you have any referrals? And they're like, no, we don't have any referrals. Like you're saying, right. And he goes, and here you are, you've sent me two referrals in 30 days. Like, what are you doing? Right? Well, one of the referrals was literally a referral from a relocation, active military, who's PCSing to the area, right? So it was a referral to me as well.
But people know that I work in certain areas and what I work on. So I've done a great job, not only in my sphere of personal relationships, but in professional relationships, people know what I do. They know when to think of The other one is a referral from a past sphere of personal but in professional people know what I do. me. client. relationships, relationships, They know what to think of me. One is a referral from a past client.
So one of the things that I do is when I'm working with people and I say, listen, I'm just a really keep it real. I'm going to shoot you straight. I'm going to be very direct because people get nervous, especially if they feel like they have something that's going to prevent them from being able to move forward. So a lot of times people that come for me say, Oh, I got your number from so and so and they said, you're going to shoot me straight. And that's what they expect from me.
So again, that's my brand. The point is, is that people know when to think of me. If people don't know when to think of you, then you haven't established your brand. For real estate agents, the other key thing, what we know as loan officers is guidelines are changing. I say a minimum, they change three times a year, pretty standard. Lots of times they change more than that.
So if you're not signed up with Finney, Fannie, Freddie, or HUD to get those emails, number one, pause this podcast and go and do that right now. And here's why. When specific changes come out in guidelines, I'm reaching back out to realtors or the next time I have a conversation with a realtor and I will say, hey, this is a new guideline change for Fannie.
If you have talked with anybody in the last 30, 60, maybe 90 days, that this was a preclusion from them for moving forward, this is someone that you're gonna wanna revisit. So two things are happening here. Number one, I'm now utilizing the real estate agent to go back through their pipeline and say, hey, did I have any of these conversations? I'm telling them specifically what to go and look for.
And B, I'm now building my brand with that real estate agent as a, hey, this chick is a let's figure it out kind of gal, right? I work outside the box. I'm on top of I'm it. up on the recent changes. So for example, one of those changes right now is Fannie Mae's recent rule change on how they're looking at timeshares. Prior to this year, if you had a default on a timeshare, we looked at that as a housing event. So if you defaulted on timeshare, we looked at that as a short zero foreclosure.
You're two, four, seven years That's rule change is now we're going to look at a timeshare default, no different than a car loan. So anybody that you've talked to in the last year who had a timeshare and that was the reason they couldn't move forward, we want to revisit them. Sure, they probably signed the lease.
Sure, they're probably renting, but let's get in their ear now so that way when that lease comes to an end in six months, nine months, three months, they know that this is now something we can move So My job really with any real estate agent is I want to be in your toolbox. I might not necessarily want to do all my business with you because I learned the hard way that like when agents go on vacation, I all of a sudden go on vacation. vacation. I just didn't know we were taking time right?
off, time right? off, got a two week vacay, I Or when we have two years of slowdown and all of a sudden you're four or five people that were sending you all your business, no longer have any business to send you. And now all of a sudden you're dead in the water because you didn't continue to nurture prospects. You didn't continue to work other real estate agents. Like, yeah, that's huge. And that's the big thing.
That's the whole point of this podcast, honestly, is not that like I'm trying to sell anything really. It's like, you need to have a strategy to actually have a sustainable business. And people talk about, well, I'm a referral only. Great. But you still have to have a systematic way of getting more referrals, whether that be from consumers, whether that be from more real estate agents. And you have to continually replace those people because a lot of people then get that and happy.
And they're like, I got 10 people, they're sending me good business. I'm fine with this. But like, what happens if they retire? What happens if they decide to be a listing agent? And they stop doing buyer side. Man, all of a sudden you're screwed and you don't have all these transactions.
Well, and just to touch again on your strategies as well, I want to go back to that is a strategy that I heard from a couple of loan officers, maybe two, three months back was taxes, even something like, Hey, you know what, if you had someone that was a little short on their income, but you know that they were going to have the new taxes, or, you know, maybe there was that two year period, you can reach out to those people and have that sort of thing.
Or even when rates went down for like a, whatever, two week period of time, right? You could have said, Hey man, rates went down. It's down. You know, maybe some of these people are going to qualify, it can give up to x amount of dollars, depending on their credit scores and figure that there's like some extra touches that you can reach out to your partners and just get free business pretty much. Now about those touches, because there's another strategy here.
And the validity, right with the new ruling or finding with NAR that agents are going to go to the list. That's a real valid, you know, change in go to the list. talk about a touch. Varying sources out in the mortgage industry say that loan originator renewals was down 60% across the nation. The reality that one of your local realtors is going to reach out to a lender and they're no longer in the business is very high.
So a touch that you can make in your sphere with people you have or have not done business with, and I'm talking realtors, title companies, maybe even inspectors to say, So I renewed for 2024. Let me know what you're up to, right? Like, hey, I want to let you know, different places are saying that loan officer renewal was down 60%. I've chosen to renew. I'd love to touch base. Let me know if you've renewed so I can make sure that I know you're still here.
At some point, the reality is that you're going to reach out to a lender and they may have exited the business. I just want you to know, reach out to me. I'm here, blah, blah, blah, right? That's just a touch. Again, you're telling them when to think of you. This is also an important email to send out to the title agents. Whether they were yours or not, you go back to every CD, every title company that you closed in 2023, 2022. You send every title agent an email.
You send a CRM blast saying, hey, we've renewed for 2024. We're still in the game. Because they're sources of information for their real estate agent partners, too. They could call and be like, oh, my gosh, did you know Sharon left the mortgage business? And you know, Debbie's going to be like, oh yeah, I know. I didn't know, but you know what? I actually got an email from this loan officer. It was actually pretty cool. You know, they let us know that they renewed.
You should maybe give them a try, but it's a specific and intentional touch that lets people know when to think of your name. And that's the key. A lot of times loan officers are putting stuff out in the world and it's fluff and it's this and that, but there's not really a call to action. Right. It's sort of a different way to do a call to action. If you don't know when to think of me, you're not going to think of the truth is whether loan officers think this or not, you're salespeople first.
I mean, let's be honest. I mean, a lot of people like to hide behind this idea that they're an advisor and educator and things like be salesperson, right? You don't get paid the type of money you get paid to advise or to educate. Yes, that is part of your job as well, right? You do need to do those things. You need to be an educator and an advisor, but you're a salesperson first. And being a salesperson doesn't mean that you're doing things unethically.
It just means you got to ask for the freaking business. You got to like be a leader. And another thing that I talk about all the time, people are probably sick of hearing this, but I talk about this because how many transactions does an average consumer do? And how many does a loan officer do? And yet, here we are allowing the consumer to tell us when they're ready to buy.
And the truth is, yes, you can't force anybody to do anything, but you can explain to them why it makes sense to buy now if they have the good credit, good income, good down payment. We're sitting here letting consumers tell us when they're ready to buy. And unfortunately to me, I think that's cowardly. And I think it just means that you're not really believing in what you do, right? If you truly believe in this product and the thing that you do, here's the truth. They can go to Rocket.
Rocket doesn't care. They're going to put two points on the back. They're going to charge them a thousand dollar application, be whatever it is that they do over but there, they don't They're care. going to get that person in process and they're going to do it because they understand that consumers don't want to right? move, They're just going to charge them $1,000 application whatever fee, it is that they do over but there, they don't They're care.
going to get that person in process and they're going to do it because they understand that consumers don't want to move, right? They're just going to stay at rest if you let them stay at rest. Sometimes you have to give them a kick in the butt to get moving. It just is the truth. I'm laughing because it's so relatable, but I've said for many years, you know, there's three things that people always want when they're doing a loan.
It's kind of like the saying in construction, you can have quick key or quality, but you can't have all three, right? You typically can get two of the three, but you're never getting all three. Well, the same is true in lending, right? People want the lowest rate, the lowest payment and to put the least amount of money quick key or is true not going to get all three, right? And you understand how that works,
right? Higher rate, lower costs, higher rates, higher payment, but then you get to keep more of your money, right? So I used to tell people like, listen, unless you're planning on going on Etsy and getting a t-shirt with your industry printed on it, it's the least important of the three. That is the biggest tool we have to manipulate the numbers to really make sure that what's important.
not going to get all So I And right now we're in a high rate environment, but our expectation is gonna go low. So if it makes sense to move forward now and it works, the best thing is to move forward now before you wait like everybody else who's saying, right. And if their consumers are on the internet, they're hearing this. They know that people are going to wait and wait until rates drop. So what's the advantage of moving forward now? that don't know if you have, do you have kids at have four.
I have seven. So good. We both. all So you got more Oh, than right. I So do you have kids do. at Okay. all? I have I have So four. Okay, We seven. all right. good. both. Oh, So you got more than I do. Okay. So here's the deal, right? If you've ever been around a toddler, right? Think about this, you know, toddlers running around just completely biffs it. And it's a big bit. If we react and go, Oh, my God, Johnny, are you okay?
All of a sudden, that kid just busts out crying where there was a brief moment where you weren't sure if they were going to. all So you got more Oh, than right. I So do you have kids do. at Okay. all? I have I have So four. Okay, We seven. all right. good. both. Oh, So you got more than I do. God, happening is they're feeding off of our energy and our reaction. Johnny's running through, makes a big biff and we just take a minute and see how Johnny gets up and react.
A lot of times they look at us and then you're like, hey, Johnny, you're all right. And they're like, yeah, I'm all right, I'm okay. Consumers are the same way. If you're afraid of the right environment, if you're afraid of like, oh, I don't know if they're going to move forward, that customer is no different than a toddler and it's going to feed off of our You've got to really know what you think, believe about this market.
And that has to come through in your communication to your real estate agents, to your clients. If you're like, oh, I know it's a high rate, but you no, numbers are black and white. Okay. You've got to adopt a very neutral stance about our environment and know what you think. You know what I believe right now? And people say, well, what do you think Jackie? And I'm like, well, would it change your mind if I told you that I sold my house with a 3.25 rate and bought with a 5.75?
They're like, why would you do that? Well, because I had 140 grand of equity locked up and I didn't really want to take a HELOC because that didn't make a whole lot of sense because I can't get all the money. So I sold my house, cleared a hundred grand, bought a new house and took that money and went and bought an apartment complex. That's what I did with it. You think I care about 5.75 right now? Not even a second thought about it unless I'm telling the story. Right, right.
I I care about the 5.75. And that's really the reality of like, how are we overcoming these objections we've never had before? So I know what I think about in this market. And I tell people, listen, numbers are black and white. We just have to figure out if this makes sense for you or A hundred percent. That's it. A hundred percent. It only matters if it makes sense. Like if you can afford the monthly payments, if you're not planning
on moving in a year, right? Like there's some things you got to think about. Cause obviously like, I think there is unethical ways of pushing people. And I think unfortunately a lot of those unethical things don't necessarily happen on the purchase side, but on the cash out refi side, you know, people pushing people into a cash out refi when really they might be a better option, right? There's some other things there to take into account as well. But generally, like sales is leadership.
And you know, again, sales is a transference of energy. You just talked about that, right? People can feel and I talk about this concept all the time, commission breath, right? So many people have so much commission breath, and they're so desperate for the business. Yes is so evident to people. And you may not know that you have that. But if you're desperate for business, if you're struggling, you need to have an indifference to getting the sale or not, right?
It doesn't matter if you get the sale or not, but you're going to just put the facts on the line. And there is also a concept of when you sort of release that energy of needing the sale, it's like they are pulled to you so strongly. And I just did this the other day. It was like someone like kind of ghosted me on a follow-up and I said, like hey, you don't have to ghost me. Like if you're not ready to move forward, totally fine. Just don't ghost me. I don't bite, I promise.
Almost instantly responded and then ended up signing the contract. It was like, it was funny because I didn't care. I was like, just don't make me freaking chase you, man. Like if you're not interested, like I just want you to tell me, right? I'd rather you tell me. And I think that is something that loan officers, sometimes they're like, Oh, I'm going to lose a sale. You're more likely to lose a sale because you're desperate to get the sale than you are.
If you're just like, Hey, you can buy or not. Here's the facts. Here's the truth. And another thing is language and tonality using words like, yeah, you know, the rate's just 7% versus, man, I know the rate's 7%. Right. Like that's the same In one statement. we use just sense, the word which is just, it know the like, rate's Oh, Like that's 7%. Right. the same statement. In one we use sense, the word just, just, which is it's not that bad.
like, oh, And then the other we're like, one, oh it's it's so right? man, 7%, bad, Like who's gonna move forward? The person that's 7% is not that bad, like, oh, you And I think And the and that's the right? Yeah, key, Like you have to know, if you think seven's high, that's gonna come out your communication. You only think seven's high because you only operated at a 3%. The first loan that I ever originated was 8.99%.
The first home that I bought back in 2008, we bought down the rate to seven and an eighth. We were the cool kids on the block. Like people could not believe we got a rate that low, right? So sometimes your experience matters, but in the sense that seven's not it's high, that just, rate that right? low, So sometimes your experience matters, but in the sense that seven's not high, it's just, that's the cycle, right? It's like trying to save and it's cold in winter.
It's like, to save and it's cold in winter. It's like, well, it's a cycle. a cycle. It's supposed to be cold in winter. Yeah. Yeah. Most likely. I mean, again, we can't promise that rates are going to come down, but I had the guy from Monitor based on one of these podcasts. He talked about the concept of the average home buyer buys about every 11 years and they typically refinance twice in that time. So that's like 4 transactions in 11 years.
But just to think about this perspective, in 11 years, that's 4 times. 4 times they're doing loans. And you're over here worried about this 30-year 7%. No one keeps a 30-year loan. Very few people keep a 30-year loan. So it's not really that big of a deal if they can afford the payments. Again, don't push something. Someone's barely affording. They're at 70% or Yeah, I don't know what the DTIs are. And I'm not a loan officer. But you know what I mean?
If like you're pushing someone into something they probably shouldn't be in that they can't really afford, then okay, like, that's probably not something you should do. But on the other side of things, like, if they're wanting to do this, like you shouldn't like talk them out of doing something because I don't If they're wanting to do like you shouldn't this, like talk them know, out of doing something I because I don't know.
mean, I unless mean, unless it's it's in their in their best best interest. interest. it's in their in their best best interest. interest. Dude, I had this story several years ago where it was a friend of ours and I had done the purchase when they bought the home. And it was about maybe a year and a half later and he calls me about a refi, right? And I'm still sort of new in the brokerage, owning the brokerage space. I was like, man, we're on the numbers.
I called him and I was kind of in a place where like I needed the loan, but it was a friend. So I was like, hey, man, like we could do the refi, but like we're only going to save you like $74 a month. And I'm not really sure if any interrupts me. And he goes, wait a minute. And it was about January. It was like the end of December. And he said, wait a minute. So you're telling me I can skip two payments and then my payment's going to go down $75 a month.
And I was like, yeah, but and he's like, let's do it. And in that moment, I realized that the value of money and the perception of value of money is each individual's perception. $75 $75 and missing two payments was a huge value for him. The value that I placed on that was my own. And I learned in that moment that it was never my job to determine the value of any degree of savings or lack thereof.
It was my job to listen to the client for them to tell me this is their money and I am the facilitator on how it is spent in this capacity. That is it.
And that's really when I began to remove a lot of my emotion about whether or not something was good or bad because loans are not good or bad it's whether or not the client understands what they're saying yes to or no to loans are just the tool so if you don't have that unattachment to what you're doing I would strongly encourage you to get to that place that loans are neither good or bad rates are neither good or bad they Rates are neither good or bad.
They're just or to or no to tools, Right now, let's see, we're filming March 1st. If I said to you, as someone in the industry, 5% rate, a consumer's gonna be like, oh, that's great. And you and I are you I got a few questions. What does it cost you to get that rate? Because I'm telling you right now to get a 5% rate, you're talking 20 to 30 grand. Now that 5% doesn't seem like such a good rate to us professionals because we know that a to get that. Now that doesn't make 5% bad.
What makes this situation bad is that the client doesn't understand what it takes to get a 5% rate. And all of a sudden they're like, why are my closing costs $50,000? Well, because you wanted 5% and it costs $27,000 for the rate. Well, I didn't know that. 5% is not bad. The loan's not bad. It's the fact that the client didn't know that. Right. 100%. That is 100%. It's all about the perception from the consumer's perspective, for sure.
So to sort of close things out That is all of out is all from the consumer's for perspective, sure. So to sort of close things out I always like to leave with one tactic, here, one strategy that people can implement.
So I know we've talked about a bunch of stuff, but if you have any other ideas, one thing that a loan officer, maybe they're starting new in the industry, maybe if you were to get started again, what's one thing, one strategy that you would tell a loan officer to go out and get I would say you need to attend as many community type networking functions as possible. And as you get busy, this is the key part. As you get busy, you don't stop going to them.
But the more that people know your name, know when to think of you, the more that you show up, the more your business will come. You need to practice your elevator pitch. You need to practice making sure people know who you are and when to think of you. more The downfall is that as we start to get busy, we think, oh, I don't have time to go to those things. Absolutely not. You carve that time out and you continue to go or your business will fall true. You to make yourself known.
What's true, it's like the same concept of like, even going like to the gym or like having a morning routine. It's like, as we get busy, we're like, Oh, we're just going to grind. And next thing we know is the things that were actually keeping us able to do the hard work was going to the gym and eating well and things like that. And we start to slip off those things. We can't go. So it's the same concept. It's like, cool. Like now we're getting busy.
It's the reason why most loan officers kind of go in these cycles, ups and downs and ups and downs is because they prospect, prospect, prospect, prospect, get the loans. Then they process the loans. And the next thing you know, crap, I don't have any loans. Let me go out and process. That's the 30 day rule. It comes from fanatical prospecting, right?
Like there's a 30 day rule that actions that you take in the next 30 days have a 90 to 180 day, especially in the mortgage industry, 90 to 180 day lag time, right? So you're going to see that if like, you're slow right it's now, probably because 90 to 180 days lag right? time, So you're going to see that if like, you're slow right now, it's probably because 90 to 180 days ago, you took a break. Hey, we had Christmas and Thanksgiving.
If you're slow right now, honestly, it's probably because you took a couple months off during that time. I'm hearing a lot of people are really busy right now. And I believe it's the people that grinded during October, November and December of last year. And that's why they're reaping the benefits right now in this market. So thank you so much for your time today, Jackie.
If someone wanted to learn more about your brokerage or your training program or any of that stuff, what's the best way to connect with you, learn more about those programs? Yeah, so I'm easily located on Google. I have a YouTube channel. You can find me, my information's out there everywhere. You can find me really easy on Facebook. Direct messaging me on Facebook is probably one of the easiest ways to get ahold of me without shouting out my phone number on your podcast. All good. All good.
That's the best way to find me. Just Google my name and some sort of mortgage, either processing or lending, and I'll come right up to the top. That's a lot today. Some of my big takeaways from today was one, we started with process. Learning how to create processes in your business is pivotal to growth. And again, you talked about the concept of like, just to understand that if you want to grow at scale, you have to do things a certain way. But you also don't have to do that.
I think that is a big misconception in this industry. And really in any high performance space is like we want these things like the $100 million producer, whatever I want to do 50 million. It's like, do you like you know what that means for your life? Do you know what the sacrifices you have to do? Do you know what you have to give up to do that? Like, and sometimes, and I did this, like I built my business to hit, I'm going to hit a hundred grand a month, right?
Like that's, I'm going to be a million dollar company. And it was like, but why? Like, what was the purpose of it? And I got burnt out, you know? So there was a lot of things that happened. So I don't recommend it again. And I still want to keep growing, but in the right way with processes, with systems, with a team and all that kind of cool stuff. So that's a big aha for me. It was just not a ha or just like a big takeaway for me.
A second is we almost did like a whole second podcast where we talked about some crazy strategies, Google using those reviews, some cool strategies and get more referrals. Man, this was a packed, packed episode. Any last parting words, Jack, before we head out? Listen, I'm going to shoot you straight all the time, always. I've been saying 2024 is a character year, not a character building year. This is a character revealing year.
This year is going to reveal whether or not you have done the things. And the reality is, is you're either doing the things that you say you're doing or that you're going to do, or you're not. And this is the year that's going to reveal that. So if I could, you know, encourage anybody to just truly be a hundred percent committed to executing the things you say you're going to do at the elite level that you know that you are capable of and your character will shine in the end.
This is one of those years, this year's making and breaking people left and right. So, you know, let that character show by committing 100% to an elite level of completion to the things that you commit to, which also means you need to be intentional about what you're committing to. And it might be saying no to some Well, I mean, I gave up alcohol a couple months ago and that's one of the things that I know that doesn't make me the person I want to be.
And so for now, it's part of my identity just because again, I mean, it didn't serve me, you know, it gives you hangovers, all that kind of stuff. It makes you sleep like crap for a little bit. So it's one of those things that you may have to give up alcohol. You may have to give up, you know, Netflix or something, but it comes down to, yeah, executing at a high level. What is the thing that you want to accomplish? So thank you so much for your time today.
And for anybody who's listening and is looking for some help on marketing and flipping the status quo on real estate agents, go to flip the status quo.com. Thank you so much for listening and have a great day. Thank you for tuning into the loans on demand podcast on loans on demand podcast.com.