The Art and Artistry of Little Fires Everywhere

world of Little Fires Everywhere was no small feat. It's a location specific period piece and yes, I know the nineties two count as a period piece, now get over it. It's also a deeply emotional world that requires a pitch perfect score and soundtrack, and it's a world full of complicated, brilliant art. So in this episode, we're going to take you through the minds that shaped the Shaker Heights of

the Hulu series, both in sight and sound. We're gonna speak with artist Connie Martin Travino created all of me as art for the show. We're gonna talk to production designer Jess Kender, and I'm very excited to have sat down with the show's composers, veteran composer Mark Isham and first time TV composer is a Summers who is literally the machine of Florence and the Machine, so really really

cool collaboration there. And we're also going to speak to legendary music supervisor Mary Ramos, who put marking Isa together collaboratively and shaped the sound of the show. So lots

to look forward to today. But first I wanted to understand where the approach to the art of the series came from on the production side, and so I got a chance to speak with Little Fires Everywhere showrunner, head writer, and executive producer Liz tig Alar, along with Lynn Shelton, was also an executive producer on the show and directed four episodes in the series, including episode one oh five.

So let's take a listen to our conversation Highland Hi. So, as the series goes on, there's an increased focus on MIA's art and weaving it into the plot. So I'm curious, what were the discussions like around when the art comes into the story in a meaningful way and what was your approach in finding an artist to make it. Well, I just have to say that it was something that really was nerve wracking for me because just the representation of her as an artist end up what her art

work would be. I've seen so much bad art in movies, you know, and it's and TV shows, and it's just it's embarrassing, you know, and being somebody who's true, a true art lover, I wanted it to feel really good and really you know, interesting and disturbing. And Liz oh she I mean we talked about the art in the room for so long and really Amy Talkington, who is an artist and and kind of you know, it was in New York kind of in the in the music world,

in art world. She really curated everything for us and kind of came up with ideas and came up with, you know, all these different artists that could kind of drawn in terms of collage and sculpture and everything that Mia did, and so she kind of had all the ideas of what the art would be. And then of course anything that was in the book we also drew

on where we drew from the book. But then we interviewed artists and we landed on this wonderful artist, Connie Martin Trevino, who you know, we knew we wanted a black artist, Um, we knew we wanted a woman. Connie was just you know, she'd never worked with a show before in this capacity. She is visionary. It's it's a real challenge and she just really grows to it. I do. I want to say that Carrie took photography classes and

she really dove in to prepare, to prepare. Yeah, and that's really and she had on the days that she was in the dark room we were shooting her in the dark room, she had her photography teacher actually come to say so that she you know, to make sure she was doing it correctly, and you know, she was again the total investment um. But I just wanted to give a shout out to that as well. Well, thank

you so much, Lynn, thank you, thank you. First thanks again to Lynn Shelton and Liz Tiglar, and we'll be hearing more from them in future episodes of Little Fires Everywhere,

the official podcast. So when Liz told me about Connie Martin Trevino, an incredible artist who later became the heart and talent behind me O Warren's art, I knew that I would stop at nothing to talk to her, and I was lucky enough to get a chance to sit down with her and the Little Fires Everywhere production designer Jess Kinder, who masterminded and was the creative heart behind the sets of the show all the way from finding Elena's house to the granular, brilliant details and building out

a teenager's bedroom in the nine nineties. So let's listen to some of that conversation. My name is Jess Kender, and I was the production designer on Little Fires Everywhere. And my name is Connie Martin Trevino, and I was the artist who created the work that Carry's character is creating in the show. It seems like more dense job than your average production design job, because not only are you bringing a place that exists to life, it's also

a period piece. And then there's also not just an artist, but like a great artist working inside of it. So, Connie, what drew you to this project to begin with? It's so strange how it all kind of came about. Someone referred me to this project that was happening that was looking for an artist who happened to work in certain mediums like photography, collage and sculpture, and I was like,

that's weird. I felt like it was for me, but I've never worked in this environment in terms of on the studio set kind of thing before and so I

wasn't really sure what to expect. Yeah, we actually we had a whole bunch of artists that we looked at UM and we only interviewed very few, and Connie came in the room and there was actually this one piece of art she showed, which is a photograph that had cheesecloth on top of it, um that she had manipulated in a bunch of different ways, And that was literally something that was written in the script on how the

artists sort of played around with her photography. And the second she pulled that out, all of us in the room were like, you know, and she yeah, it's like freaky, Yeah, it was weird. Yeah, Connie, I want, I want. I'm so curious about what this process was like for you. And so for for listeners, you did all of me as art that appears in the show. That correct, okay, UM, So what was that process like for you creating art

as a different person. There was a part of me that didn't necessarily feel that I was a different person, because I felt like the character of Mia was actually like myself. So it came to me actually kind of easily. I didn't find it challenging at all, And and there are times when people have asked me, you know, I didn't have really any stress or any anxiety or anything

about it. It just kind of flowed. And it is still a very strange, sort of surreal experience, because you would have thought that it would have kind of created a a weird kind of environment or a place, since I had never actually worked in that capacity, But it it was not a challenge at all. I also think what is good about Connie's work is that she is a strong enough artist that when she came in and she said this is this is what I do, you

know like, this is this is me? Like here's the me that fits what you were looking for, but here's the me that you didn't know you wanted. She a lot of her styles, like she does this great collaging that wasn't written in the script that developed after everybody saw her work and we're like, we're like, what you're doing,

let's let's use this and make this into it. I was I was wondering that of of how much of the art was determined by what was on the page, And then I know that you have your own work and instincts of what would mia create, what was that process, Like, so, I guess initially there were certain things that they were kind of looking for. So they would say, you know,

this is what what we're thinking. And I could say, well, this is how something like that would happen and work at that time period, like that doesn't make any sense if it was the case, yeah, or I would think about, okay, so how would something like this be done, and how would I do it as this person as the artist, but also to as Mia who is you know, from that that time period, And so that's how the work

kind of got created. Okay. So I think a good example of that is the piece that you've seen everywhere, which is Lena's face burning what had originally it had originally been conceived as uh, you would see Izzy cutting wire, you would see Izzy cutting strips, and then there was like this three D mold that would happen that would form a Lena's face and in fact, the burning wasn't in there in the beginning, right right, Yeah, it wasn't

in there in the beginning at all. That was something that that developed throughout the season, and when Connie came in and we were talking about it, We're like, okay, because they once she sort of she didn't really have to prove herself, but it's soon as she got in and people were like, let's hear what she has to say, and she we ended up with me and being much more organic and what she did. And Connie was like, I mean, I don't know you speak to this part.

But what I saw happening was this is too it's too much. It's too you wouldn't Yeah, you wouldn't do all that, and you wouldn't do all that in the time constraints or in the environment. It's it's like, you have to be realistic. Okay, So when does she have time to do this, working jobs, working two jobs, just

you know, all the things that that she's doing. So yes, so what had it had to make sense to me that because it's all I kept thinking was if my artist friends, if they were looking at this, and they'd be like, that's not possible, because I often do that, you know, and I'm looking If I'm looking at something and and it's something that I am familiar with and have an understanding, and then I see it happening in a certain kind of sequence or or in a certain way,

it doesn't feel believable. And I guess I really it was important to me to think about these things looking true and looking possible, you know, at that time period. Absolutely, and and that um that Elena piece is so powerful and cool and to the point where when it shows up organically in the show, I'm like, was that in the book? It seems like it should have been if it wasn't, you know, like it just feels like, yeah, like just such a grounded part of of the world.

And I think what's great too, is it there's like a little bit of like the actual what you need for the show, which is like Liz said, it's important to me to have the beats of Izzy and Mia working together. So we were like, Okay, how many beats do you need? And so they gave us that many beats and Connie was like, Okay, let me see this is what I'm thinking, and she drew a quick sketch. One of the things I loved about working with her is I tell her this all the time, like my

mind would never think the way that she thinks. And so she came back and she drew a sketch of what you end up seeing, and I was like, this is so good. It's so good and it was. There's something about the like simplicity and not the overwrottenness that just worked. But she still was like, Okay, they will cut these things together, they will tie these things together,

they will punch these holes together. So it's still hit all the beats, but was just stunning and what it was, and then you know, like it burned, like it looks so cool. Liz loved it so much that her rap gift to everybody was she made little mini ones of those and she would write a note on the back of it and give it out to people, so they

were like, this, this is the best. Then that's so cool. Uh. The other piece I wanted to ask you about specifically that I it's it's so interesting like that when I read about it in the book and then what you created it felt so the um the spider uh photograph. What was the process of putting that together? Because it's so striking. I think for people who have read the book, it very much holds up and exceeds like how you

imagine it when you're reading. Okay, well, I mean you want the actual started well initially, so when they said that they you know, this was the first so the minute that they told me that I had it and then we met, it was like, okay, zero to a hundred. So it's about you know, automatically, you know, getting into a certain mindset of having to try to like, you know, make things. These things happen in a certain sort of

UM time frame. And so once I know I had it, I was like, Okay, well we don't have the model yet. We don't have the model yet. Let me use myself because I mean, UM, a lot of my photography also

too early UM images are all self portraits. UM. And having also to experience and had gone through pregnancy and miscarriages and stuff like that, I tried to really think about the feeling that we were trying to convey about this spider woman image and how this picture came to be in MIA's head, and so to just kind of jump start that, you know, to be Miam in that place, I started practicing or practicing or just shooting myself and doing time exposures and slow exposures and moving in and

out and feeling you know, a lot of emotional kinds of feelings that I wanted to convey in that UM it became about layering. I was playing with fabric and textures and all kinds of things to really also give this feeling of a web and web Like I took a picture of spider webs on my fence that had some do you know, so that gave also to a certain amount of texture which then became you know, some of the background sort of texture that you see in

that hole. Yeah, and you live closely, it's there if you look, if you had a chance to look at that image, yeah, knowing in the process that you practice it on yourself too. That's so that's so cool that that image. I think it's so striking and beautiful and it's a little terrifying. Yeah, yeah, but it feels it just feels like such a perfect encapsulation of you know, where Mia is that when she creates it too, And

so I'm curious. Liz had told us that Carrie was very committed to channeling Mia and was like taking photos on set and was really trying to put herself in that mindset. Did either of you speak with her or do any sort of prep with her just to make that connection. She was very involved in the MIA's art and where where it was going. She was also very

respectful I think everyone. Connie proved herself, so everyone was super respectful, but she there wasn't a single piece of artwork that went out without her seeing it and giving

it a thumbs up. That's awesome. And what's even I thought was really cool was at the very beginning, um Carrie texted me and asked me she could call me, and I said, yes, of course you can call me, I guess and it was really about us discussing Mia as a character and the vision, and she was so open and wanting to hear what I had to say. Um as an artist, it just made being able to create the work so much easier because they did give me the opportunity because at first, you don't know if

you're going to feel as though you're being micromanaged. Um am I just creating this just exactly like how they want it, um or or am I able to actually feel like I'm being able to do what it is that I do. And I totally felt like I was able to be able to do what it is that I do. And of course there's still is some there was some going back and forth sometimes kind of like how can we like, let's have some more of that?

So then it was like, well, okay, because I'm not sure how much you want, so we can always make it more. And being able to talk to carry not only on at the very beginning, but then when I would chow up on set and she was asking me about how am I holding the camera? You know, is there anything that you see that you would suggest that I do differently? Because I really wanted to come off like you know, this camera is a part of me, and absolutely so. I you know, if I said, well,

I wouldn't probably hold it that way. I would do it like this. She was totally receptive, and um just really again open to just wanting to give the most authentic portrayal I feel. I mean, and that makes a lot of sense just based on Carrie's interpretation of Mia and and your artistic interpretation of MEA feels so just

in sync with each other. That's that's so cool. And then and then for just I guess, just kind of addressing what seems I would guess it be an additional challenge of your not just building out this world, but you're setting it in a specific time as a production designer. What are the things you consider, especially going into a period piece. Well, I mean I think for me, because it was set in the nineties and I graduated in seven, it was very easy to be reference that time frame.

I think the tricky thing is the nineties is not a um design loved era, and so you don't have at your fingertips people who have restored all these things or kept all these things. Like trying to track down stuff that looked like the nineties, it is hard because everyone is like, you know, I got rid of it exactly like we We didn't keep that that wasn't I mean, maybe it will have its heyday again, like mom jeans

are back, so but just there for it. Yeah. And were there any just because you know the nineties at the time you're very connected to anyways, were there certain design elements or like references you were like, oh, definitely, I want to include this because this is a part

of my nineties experience. What's funny is that actually the things that got to me more than anything else were like the props, Like I thought about you know, I was graduating college, so I was eating a ton of snack wells, you know, like I was I did the slim fast after I put on the freshman fifteen, you know, like and whenever those would come out, we had like a nine O two and oh game that was in Lexi's room, you know, like it was fun stuff like that.

Really the creating the overall of the world that was more about like my dad was raised in Cleveland, you know, I lived in Jersey most of my life, and it was sort of pulling those like I remember when Ralph Lauren and Ethan Allen and all of that, and so just pulling up those references again to get the right vibe. But what I enjoyed the most was almost the little the little things that would come up where you're like, I did that, you know, God seeing that slim fast

can I just like saw my mom's fridge. I was like, yep, I know that. It's fantastic. Connie, Jess, thank you so much for sitting with us, and um, congratulations on making such an amazing show. Thank you, thank you for having me. Thank you again to Connie, Martin Travino and Just Kinder for that look behind the visual world of little fires everywhere.

I won't be talking to Jess more in future episodes of the podcast as well, So now that you have a better understanding of the visual world behind the show. I want to take you in to the sound music supervisor Mary Ramos and composers Mark Isham and Isabella Summers, who, for the uninitiated, is the Machine portion of Florence and the Machine worked in harmony to blend an incredible dramatic score with the music of the nineties that shaped the world of all the characters in the Shaker Heights of

the Shell. I got a chance to catch up with the three of them ahead of the Little Fires Everywhere premiere, So let's take a listen. Thank you all so much for joining us today. So we're listeners of the podcast who are new to the music for television process. Would you tell us what your jobs are on the show and what those jobs entail. Hi, I'm Mary Ramos. I'm

the music supervisor on Little Fires Everywhere. UM. My job is to kind of handle all musical aspects of the show, which includes helping to um pick song choices, helping to create characters, tastes in music, and also to make suggestions on who who the most awesome composers should be. And in this case, we have two of the most amazing musicians as our composers building this world. Mark Isham who is responsible for so many amazing scores, crash his incredible

score for Once upon a Time, the ABC show. UM, and I have borrowed from Mark's collection of music many times when I've been working on other shows, trying to create the emotional feels because he is so good at that. And then we also have is a machine Isabella Summers, who is the architect of the Florence and the Machine sound. She is the fire and the drums and the drama. Uh that you hear in Florence in the Machine amazing?

All right? So, now now that we know what you do, I think that there is not really a lot of well known information about how the sonic world of a TV show is created. So with the three of you, mind talking a little bit about what is your collaborative process, like when you're given a project like Little Fires Everywhere

and told how does this world sound? This was an exciting project for very many reasons, UM, two of which are Carrie Washington and Reese Witherspoon, amazing actresses, producers, UM with their vision and this book. I did read the book beforehand, so I was familiar with the story, but not familiar with the way that Liz Tiglar had orchestrated changing the characters around and really brought the story even

more to life. And I knew that their intention was to bring a personality to to really imbue a personality with the music. UM for Little Fires Everywhere, And I've worked with is a Machine on another project, Assassination Nation. She had done a piece of score for that that was killer, and so I'd always thought of a time that I want to use work with her again, not user, sorry, work with her again. She's not. I didn't know, and she hadn't scored a full project before, and it was

just a natural because I knew. I'd worked with Mark I shouldn't before on a movie called Freedom Writers, where he did an amazing job and really brought together Mark. Remember you worked with will I Am on that score and Mary ben Um and it was it turned out really beautiful, and honestly he was a ringmaster on that

situation too. So I knew that Mark was not only an amazing composer, but also it was really a good base for UM to work with an artist like is A okay, and then Um, markin is a What what was your collaborative process like composing the music for this show, so we managed to set it up so that it could come here and we just sat in a room for days, had a really good time making music. Essentially. Yeah, and I think I think that it did actually do

exactly what we set out to do. I don't think either one of us would have written a score like this on our own. In fact, no one for sure. There's something completely unique about this. I would have never done it like this, as it wouldn't have done it like this, and yet it's very strong and it has definitely a point of view. The beautiful thing is that I've never schooled anything before I've done music, and like it's in a piece of school for a film. That

is how I met Mary. But to be presented with this opportunity and then you know, partnered with Mark, I should just I mean, I feel like I just fell into like the most beautiful situation because they were all was so nice. And that's you know, validating what I do from a rock and roll perspective and then bringing that together and making a sense of it with Pho. It's just as peaceful thing. That's so cool, that sounds like such a great collaboration. Oh, it was so fun.

And there were oftentimes when we'd you know, I go over to the studio with them and they put up the picture and they you know, play a pass a queue and it'd be like, oh, bring more flier and Mark would say, oh, I happen to have a burning piano sample? Wait what sample? There are some crazy guys who will make these sample libraries. And one of them, for god knows what, he thought we should set this

piano on fire and sample. It's exactly that's exactly what they did, and it's well pretty, it's a pretty whacked out sound I can imagine. Yeah. And then is of course did set a piano on fire, so, you know, would put it past it? I was like, oh, man, I did. Mary. I wanted to ask you a little bit about the use of cover songs throughout the show. You do such a beautiful job of taking music from that time and grounding it in this very modern, emotionally

resonant sound. So how did you go about finding the right songs to fit the little fires everywhere universe? So in order to be able to be a little bit unique or have something that's unique to our show, it's you know, was an idea to try and use covers, but also, um, really because we had this opportunity with these two amazing composers. Um, the idea would be to make these covers uh organic with the score, that's the word.

Because we had this fire and this great vibe to the score and then just to segue into a song that's really part of that score is what really makes them work really well. I think I'm very curious about how you go about finding the right voice for each cover. Yeah, it was kind of a little bit of a ry with a little help from your friends type of situation. I you know, was already writing hard way to writing a song was my friend Judith Hill at the beginning

of this year. Anyway, So when we're in the studio one night, I said, do you want to do a corobble with me for my first TV show? And she was like, I'd love too. So we kind of went through the like a very well curated list of potential songs, UM, and you know, Judas took to the idea of Phil Collins in the air tonight and UM, we we kind of like smashed it out in like an hour an hour and a half and it's so easy to work with.

We're so easy to work with, amazing voices, so like because you know they just that there's not it doesn't take a great amount of effort to get something incredible. They're so beautifully done, and they also do feel so cohesively inside of this world in the same like it it's just yeah, it's really well done. I loved the

cover so much. Were there any scenes that stood out to the three of you, is like this was particularly like, oh, I can't wait to score this scene, or like this scene was a little challenging, or I remember there were two scenes that were really fun to UM consider you

guys working on. One was when Mia goes through the house the valume cue and the war path basically, and then the culmination where she creates that one piece of art uh in episode one oh four um at the end, and those were cues I was really looking forward to to to pull back a little bit. I am curious at what drew everyone individually to this project. I had

read the book before and obviously dug it um. I also have worked with Carrie Washington before with her company before and also worked with her own Jango and changed Um and Pillar Savone. Her partner is a good friend, and so they brought me in. But I had also been a massive fan of Reese Witherspoon, her her taste and material, her acting, her you know, just her production company, all of it. And then walking into the room for my first meeting and seeing all these women around the table,

you know, was pretty incredible. And is there anything else about the composing for television process that our listeners might not know? There's one thing I thought we should talk about, which is is so we actually had a seventeen string group and a harpist and one of the world's greatest drummers, and that's sort of rare and television and that really brings this stuff to life, and it's really a big part of why we could choose to write the music

in the way we chose it. You're going to have here in Los Angeles some of the finest musicians in the world able to come in and play. You start to think in another way, and I think it's I think that's a big part of what makes this score just pop out and just stand up up as something really unique. Absolutely, you can't be live musicians, and we were so blessed to be in Capital Record Should Record

fantastic East West. We were in these amazing rock and roll recording studios that had you know, they just have these ghosts in this their DNA and there, you know, so are our recording sessions for this score roll like rock concerts really fun. One thing I'd like to say is, you know, we talked a lot about Carrie's character in the music that she listened to and stuff. We did

actually really consider what Elena would be listening to. And it was very important because one of the first cues you see in the pilot is a piece of music at Elena um listens to, and it was really important to strike the right chord and to hit the right tone and to have the right pep, but also something that was hip, but that was you know, it all

had to fit within her character. And really, even though we only hear one of her choices that Elena would listen to, we really gave a lot of consideration and re gave a lot of consideration to the music or character would listen to and the music in the world of Shaker Heights. So that was really important to stand out for Elena's like this would have been in her heavy rotation. There was I think Shania Twain. You know, man,

I feel like a woman of um. But she but they also weighed in heavily about we we went back and forth over UM. In episode one of three, there's a school dance, and we went back and forth and back and forth about what kind of music would play there. We really felt like it was you know, first we thought was it was going to be an awesome opportunity to play some um, you know, cool cool music, you know, alternative music from the time period. And then we realized as we put it to picture, no, this is a

school dance. They would have played you know, the top forty yea. So we ended up, you know, going with what would have been on the radio at the time, UM, which is still cool. I mean, we hit it up, you know. We we end up with a really fun song um Via Luke It's your Birthday yea, And it's a It's really fun because the cast like starts dancing around and having a great time to that song. It was really fun talking to the younger cast of this show and I was like, did you know any of

this music? They're like kind of but they're all none of them were alive when this whole show was happening, which is a very sobering thing to hear. Uh. Yeah, all of them are like, yeah, it's part in two thousand one, so I'm not really sure. It's like right, right, right, right, right, Well, we're gonna introduce them to some cool music exactly. They got the perfect in. Um. Thank you to all three of you so much for for making the time and talking to us a little bit about your process. I

really appreciate it very much. Yeah, thank you. Thank you again to the incomparable Mary Ramos, Mark Isham and Isabella Summers. And thanks to you our listeners for coming to hang out with us for another episode of Little Fires Everywhere, the official podcast to get a feel for the sights

and sounds of Shaker Heights, Ohio. I would tell you what next week's podcast is about, but it would give away too much about the incredible episode that's airing on Hulu next Wednesday, So you'll just have to subscribe to the podcast and come back next week to see what's in store. Remember to follow Little Fires Everywhere on all platforms at Little Fires Hulu and look forward to a new episode of Little Fires Everywhere the podcast. After new

episodes of the show air on Hulu each Wednesday. My name is Jamie Loftus and until next time, Shaker rides h