Reese and Kerry React

finale of Little Fires Everywhere, oh my word. I mean there's no way to cover it in a spoiler free way, but I was completely blown away by the final episode. Just really intense performances, incredible twist and turn writing, beautiful direction, just chefs kiss, amazing stuff, which is why for our episode today, we wanted to do what we all lease do.

I know what happened behind the scenes from the people who made the show what it is, and today you are in for an absolute treat only hitters for guests. We have the author of Little Fires Everywhere and producer of the show, so lest In. We have the Little Fires Everywhere showrunner, head writer and executive producer Liz Tiglar, and we have the stars of the show. We're talking Carrie Washington, Race Witherspoon, and Rosemary DeWitt. I know it's

a lot of good stuff. And keep in mind we were originally going to have a big to do and a whole live event, but that was during the before times, and so for this interview, we are all on Zoom in full quarantine. So what follows is my interview with Carrie, Reese and Liz. And if you did not know, Carrie and Race are more than just the incredible leads of Little Fires Everywhere as Mia and Lena, they're also executive producers on the show, so their fingerprints and influence have

been on this project since day one. We talked about the finale, building out the world of their characters working together for the first time and more so, let's take a listen. Welcome Liz Tickler, Carrie Washington, and Reese Witherspoon. All of our viewers and then listeners of the podcast have seen the finale, and I'm very interested to hear from all three of you. Is there any viewer reaction that is like particularly like surprised you or touched you?

I mean, even throughout all of the episodes, Aring Reese, what do you think? I mean, I think everything is so incredibly thoughtful and even people's strong any kind of strong reaction. Do you have anything even people hating Elena? It makes me so out of the work that we did.

And we worked really hard to make sure the assumptions that you had about any character would be dismantled by something two or three episodes later, So it really challenged your assumptions all the time, and that we really listed such a beautiful job plotting that and being the architect of you know, pulling people in and then pushing them away, and um, it's just a it's a beautiful sort of emotional jungle gym that people are going on. And I

haven't gotten to see people's reactions to the finale. Yeah, but I'm so excited. Yeah, the ending of the series is slightly different from the ending of the book, and Louse,

could you walk me through that decision making process. One thing was clear, which was there's this very humorous thing that happens at the beginning of the book, which is this iconic houses on fire, the little fires everywhere, fires everywhere, and you know in the beginning kind of on the first page that is he's the one who did it.

So for a series, you know, it kind of begs the question, like if you didn't know Izzy was the one who did it, but even if all things point to Izzy, or the assumption is that it's Izzy, is there an overarching mystery to not knowing that answer that could be propulsive and compelling. Um. Then it became this great challenge to think, well, obviously we know it could be easy, but if it wasn't Izzy, who could it be?

And I think we went on a real journey with that challenge, which at first, you know, thinking what would be who would be the most dramatic character that you would not expect to burn the house down that would have to go the furthest and have the furthest. Arc obviously felt like Elena, and that was what we kind of talked about at first. But I think all of us, the Carrie, reaese Um, Lauren and Player are producing partners and myself we talked about this idea of like is

that real? Is that just too far for for this woman to go? Would any adult do this? There's obviously something about it that so you can really buy a teenager doing it much more than you can then a her own person would need to do that. And then as we you know, went on our journey with it, I remember thinking like, who could it be be Lexie, would it be Trip, would it be Moody? And it didn't seem like it would be any one of them. But then this idea kind of struck me of well,

could it be all three? And what would it mean if it were all three? And could we take the spirit of the book, which is Easy wanting to start a fire, and could it kind of take on a life of its own, so that Easy starts it and the kids finish what she started and they have their own reasons from their own arcs for like lighting these matches. For Carrie and Reest, I guess I'm interested in your reactions to where your characters land and where they might

go from here. Carrie, I feel really grateful that both Mia and Elena that they there, They had to have their illusion of control ripped from them, that they both there.

There were real costs two in the secrets that they kept, in the ways that they were living their lives trying to control the world around them by controlling their children, that they both really had to they were forced to let go of that, and I think that was so beautifully designed by Celeste in the book and then really just dimensionalized and and glorified by Liz is just really

so beautifully painted. Absolutely at the end of the show, there's definitely a sense of hope that isn't necessarily in the book. Boy, I just when I read the book, I bawled my eyes. You can't treat your children that way. And I think, you know this idea. I think we all kind of longed for our mother to understand us, our mother or whoever the parent is that raised you. You just you want that that unconditional acceptance. And Izzy doesn't get it. There's a lemmer of hope that Elena

holds the feather and says Izzy instead of Isabelle. It's a big moment that Liz built in that It's like you're always longing for your parents to truly understand you, and and not just to understand you, but accept you. And it comes. You know, that's a for many many people in this world never happens. Yeah. I also I like this idea of na Um. You know that car, like taking that car from place to place, that car was her everything and literally driving that car was how

she controlled Pearl's worldview. Um And to say to Pearl, like you get to decide where the car goes next Um and to be led two back to her home, even though she assumed that Pearl would want to find her dad, but she lets Pearl lead her somewhere equally uncomfortable and lets herself get out of the car to follow Pearl back into her her place of origin. Is really,

I think, also hopeful. I really like the adjustments made from book Mia to show Mia, and I'm curious as to where some of those came about where, um, part of it's just flashing out her history more. But we you know, in the book she doesn't have a sex life really of any kind, and that was changed for the series. And so where where did that idea begin?

A lot of that came from the writer's room and this you know, Liz and this phenomenal room full of just dynamic, intelligent, raw, courageous writers, and they decided early on that there was, you know, this sort of um image throughout history and literature of black women being a sexual and so they wanted to make sure that Mia that there was so missed read around her sexuality in her sex life, but that it was embodied more so, A lot of those traces really came from the writer's room.

And their desire to have me to be fully realized on on your end, when you're kind of plugging into this character and preparing, where were you able to meet

and understand her to build up the performance? You know, I just had an experience of her when I read her in the novel, and so I just felt like I was constantly climbing toward that, like there was kind of a soul of an understanding of her that existed outside of me that as I read the book, I saw her, I could smell her, I could hear her, and I was just constantly trying to work in my

process to get close to that thing. Um that was that that I felt was this combination of what I read on the page and who why was the alchemy of that created this other thing outside me that I was just aiming for all the time, down to even like taking photos and and like embodying her art life too, which is so amazing. Yeah. I got to take photography classes and learned to be a photographer because I feel like there were things I would discover about Mia even

just from that learning process. And there were you know, like even the way that she engages with people that that her chosen art form, you know, like Greece and I, our chosen art form is to like take on somebody else's entire emotional and psychological being and like surrender ourselves

to live in somebody else's shoes and brain. And and MIA's chosen form of art work was really about like being on the outside, observing, capturing, manipulating, not giving herself fully over, but trying to transform how you see a supposed to transforming how you know how I see. So just things like that that could help me understand how

she thinks. For reasons, I'm interested in how you were able to find a connection and build out a lot of depth in Bolina as well, where when we meet her she's kind of this quintessential upper crust white housewife, and then as the lawyers are are more exposed, she has this very rich in her life. What what drew you to her? And how did you build out that character?

I always look at characters that we see, you know, you can read it very one dimensionally and and really see her as this very rigid person from a place at a time. But I always think of characters when I meet people who are so rigid in their ideology I'm always fascinated with digging deeper. Where does that? Where did that come from? Where? What is that? Where did that ideology come from? There's something sort of interesting about

that to me too. This in sense of entitlement, sense of protecting a bubble that she grew up in and that her children will grow up in. It's inevitable that the world comes in and what happens to someone who has that force field almost like a impenetrable idea of what is right and what is good. And it's all in the book. I mean, it's beautifully said in the book. Um, you know that she believes that people who behave the way that Mia does create chaos and they can burn

the whole world to the ground. Um, and then you see obviously something else happens. But um, it's sort of it was fascinating. I have deep tender thoughts about her, as you have to in order to get inside these things. Is as Gary said, you have to have you have to have compassion and curiosity. And I I will say to you know, for people who you don't think of hers, they kind of love to hate her, which I totally get that too. There there elements of it of deep

loss and sadness of her own identity. She was never allowed to explore her identity. Yeah, and I mean, I think it is kind of incredible over the course of the series to not just see so distinctly who Elena and who me are, but that they end up on the opposite ends of the conflict of the adoption storyline

and of mailing. And you, you know, no matter who you agree with, you fully understand where they're coming from and why they're coming from that place, and that storyline, I mean, for just me as a viewer was one of the most fascinating and challenging that that I've seen in TV in a long time. And so as speaking as executive producers as well and as mothers. How how was navigating that story reliant for everybody over the course

of production. Well, I mean, I don't know about y'all, but I've had the best conversations about it with people. I think it was always meant to illicit conversation, and I think there isn't a right or wrong or how we feel like I don't know, I would vastly wildly between who that baby would thrive with, you know, And I think people said to me yeah, what did the parents do wrong? I mean, what does that woman want the baby back? And and then you go, okay, well,

but isn't her biology it's her biological child. What would And it's a very fantastic conversation. Yeah. There was one day once that it was very I think it was her first day she was working little Baby Molly, and

the call she had said m Mirabelle. And I saw I heard some folks on set reacting um, and so I went to our amazingly sensitive, phenomenal line producer, Mary Howard, who I worked with on Scandal for seven seasons, um, and I said, I think we need to change it, I think, And we started labeling it as baby m on the call sheet because like whether to put may Ling or marabel on the call sheet was a big deal. Yeah,

it's didn't know that that's amazing. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah, because people, even just in the hair and makeup trailer, people were like, why is it? Why is it Mirrabelle? And I was like, oh, well, let me go see

what I can do about that. That story like cuts to the quick of what you believe, like like people hear that story or see that story and you have an immediate gut instinct based on not necessarily things as negative as prejudices or even as um obvious as biases, but just um, just based on your own life and circumstances, you will have a gut reaction to that story. I am an adopted kid. When I opened up that book and started reading, I was like, the mccullas are the parents.

There's no way you can't have a little bit. You can't have been with their parents for ten months and then be ripped away. But of course what you do then as and that's how I came into the room.

Other writers came in in the complete opposite way. And I will say, by the time we got done with the story, not that our paths had crisscrossed in that we were saying the polar opposite thing, but I could no longer say that that was the mcculla's baby, because once you understand the circumstances in which BB gave had to give up her child, you can't say she should

be penalized for circumstances that are beyond her control. Now that the whole series has aired, what do you hope that viewers take away from having watched Little Fires everywhere. I had to train for this movie once where I was with in C Double, a multiple time champions softball coach from U C. L A. I mean, I learned so much from this woman, y'all in four months. It was like she was like another mother to me in

certain ways. She said something so profound to me. She said, what parents don't realize is that their children's minds aren't aren't a dry race board, Like you don't get to say something and then take it away. You write on your child's mind with a sharpie. And it was so profound when she said it to me. I had a little a seven year old, a three year old, and she said, be so careful with what you tell them about who they are, who you are, what is possible.

And I've always taken that to heart. And I think that's that That's one thing. There's so many things in this show, but I do think be you know that that is a cautionary tale. Be be thoughtful of the things that you say to your children, because they they take them in. It becomes it's very real for them. A phrase that I love is don't compare your insides to other people's outsides. This idea that you know, you

just don't know what's going on for other people. And I love that, particularly in episode six, you really learned that Mia and Elena are much more similar than anyone They were like each other there in their younger lives. I think it's so important for us, particularly now, to have this understanding that there's more going on for people than we could have imagined, and that that could be a reason for us to be more patient with each other and accepting of one another rather than more kind

of fearful and judgmental of one another. Absolutely, I think there's this idea that like, look, these two women were so immeler um, I mean, so different in so many ways but similar, and that they fiercely wanted to do right. They didn't see what they were doing that was so destructive. But the point is you teach your children what you know, and you hope that your children are going to take

that and be even better than you were. And I think what's so beautiful about the and and then by that you are raising them to be better even with the good and the bad. And what I think so beautiful about this story is the end result is these two women raised these brave kids to not only transform their lives, but to go back and to transform the lives of their own mothers, to give them hope and give them what they're longing for, which is certain kinds

of freedom and choice. And that's beautiful. I just hope that this is a conversation for people you know and and and that they if you identify as one character, that you're seeing the reality of a different character. And I think that's the real beauty of this show. I think it is really eye opening too, you know, as we become even more switched into our little bubbles. Remember there's there's others. There's so many different people out there doing the best they can with what they've got where

they are. Well. Thank all three of you so much for joining us, and congratulations on such a beautiful show. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Handsome She. Thank you again to legends Carrie Washington, Greese Weatherspoon, and Liz tag Alre. I now know what it feels like to be star struck over Zoom. And for the record, yes, of course I did uh fully dress up because I'm

a professional, but yes, total honor. And I can't wait to see how recent carry collaborate next question mark, but white listeners, there is more more In addition to reason carry, Liz take a Laura Night got to speak with Rosemary de Witt, who plays Linda may Link's adoptive mother in the Little Fires Everywhere series, and she made some time out of her busy Quarantine schedule to catch up with us after the finale of the show aired on Hulu.

Rosemary de Witt is a veteran actress and an adoptive mother herself in real life, so she has some truly amazing insight into Linda's storyline and character, and so I was very thrilled to speak to her about that, the finale of the show and more. Let's listen to our conversation, Rosemary, Liz, Hello, thank you for joining us in in Quarantine. So, Rosemary, what was your reaction to the finale of of the

story and particularly where where Linda ends. I appreciated that. Uh. For me, it was surprising the ending and it was complicated, and especially as far as a storyline that I was involved in. Maitlan has two mothers and you know that's there that's left standing at the end of the show.

Going back to when you first read the book, what drew you to this part and to this project I was really also for me, I think I was drawn into Linda's journey with her sort of pregnancy and child loss because I think that often gets swept under the rug, you know, and it it often defines a mother not only how she builds her family often but how she

then parents. So that's really what pulled me in to it, Like that's what was so heartbreaking to me was when she had to give birth to a stillborn baby and then you know, and she definitely it's what drives the fight of just not being able to endure that loss again. Were there any storylines, whether it was yours or others, that were particularly challenging. We have like all these different stories of actors and crew members going in with one opinion on an issue and then coming out with like,

oh god, I don't know. And I was so moved by the young performers on our show, like they're all

so talented. And for me, when I watched the show, I thought the breakup scene with Elena's eldest daughter and her boyfriend, like that just broke my heart, you know, like you realize like a lot of people's hearts are in the right places, and the executions terrible or they were taught you know, maybe values that were suspect or you know, or they're just all working through and and just in general, the kids, you know, the children and

the story just are really struggling to have their own identity. Liz and I can speak a little bit to just the kind of the Linda in the book, and then how Rose came in and like I think even elevated and deepened and made her even more nuanced. I think the Linda in the book, like her blind spots were glaring. Do not I did not like Book Linda at all.

I don't think you root for Book Linda. When Rose came in, I mean, she is so winning and root for able anyway, but I felt like she brought this this humanity to this character and a care to this character.

This was one of those where I never saw a writer work harder on a script in my life, Like the script was never finished in anything that popped up in the courtroom or any discovery, or if Carrie improvised a line or set a line in a certain way, and that could change the whole like where it landed, and then we could go over and whisper by the monitor and then say, I think Linda has to have

a retort to that when she takes the stand. And so it was always very much in a live vital um process, and I think that really helped infuse it with a lot of truth because you both have experiences with adoption in your actual lives as well. I'm but that scene in particular of how did you approach that scene? The whole storyline has been polarizing and challenging for viewers, but that is where it kind of at all climaxes. How did you prepare for that? On on the writer's side,

for you, Liz, and then for for your performance. I will say that courtroom scene, as long as it was, it could have been twice as long. It doesn't feel long though it flies by. It was one of our longer scenes, you know. I think the Lexie Brian breakup was our longest scene of the series, and the courtroom scenes were probably right up there with the longer sequences. And I think it was because there was so much

to me. There was a balance of all the things we wanted to get across, and then there was a structural balance and arc to the scene that had to be like story balanced, you want, like a roller coaster, not like h E kg. It's so yeah, it's it's I mean, it's incredible. Like whereas what were you pulling from and how did you prepare for seeing that? Like it's just so intense. Well, the writing was so good on our show, it was so the prep was usually

really easy. What was tricky It was more the mindset of to now and what Like you said, both Liz and I have real life experience with adoption and just how much resource there is now and how much we've learned, And it was just kind of keeping that um mindset and not judging it and not making the characters seem not smart or ignorant, just because we've come so far, you know, around transparency and child's rights and truth, you know,

and and um. So that was just tricky just never to sort of tip it too hard, because you know

she did. Linda did have to have a lot of sort of slip ups, Like she had a lot of time to prepare are for this trial, and at the same time, she still had to have her blind spots, you know what I mean, Like she couldn't become enlightened in that moment, you know, who knows what where she'll be um after you know, now that this audience knows what what happens, like, who knows what she'll take away from the experience, But in that moment, she can't know

what she doesn't know. So that was always that was the delicate balance for just not tipping it. For you, Rose, if you could now go to the Linda character in n and and tell her anything, any any hot tips, I guess because my experience as an adoptive mom is so different, I would say that there is enough room for everyone at the table that you know, you're you're you don't have to fear of losing your child by having too many people love them. It's a it's a

really amazing saying, crazy rich, complex landscape. So there's all these factors socioeconomic and privilege that are that are exacerbating it. But yeah, I would just tell her that, you know, you don't have to be so scared. And then of course, you know, we have all these other forces. We have me as doing what Elaine is doing, which is ratcheting up the tension for these these poor women. Yeah. Absolutely.

Now that the series has aired and viewers have gone on the full journey with you, Liz, What are you hoping that people take away from um? From the series? From Your Baby? There's a lot of things. I mean, one thing is what we're talking about, which is there is no there is no perfect mother, UM, And we would never we never asked the question like who's the perfect father, who's the better father, who's the more deserving father?

Like this is language that is is unique to the predicament of mothers, Like the way we judge mothers is so harshly and in essence, society tells us that to be good mothers we have to put every other part of ourselves away. Um, that all of that is rivaling our ability to be good mothers instead of fueling how we mother. And so you know, there are a million takeaways I could think of from the show, but I think that's one of them, that that the question of

who's a better mother is is the problem? The same question to you, what are you hoping that people take away from the show at large? And also just Linda's storyline and journey. I always hope that an audience sees themselves in some of the characters or or feel seen. I really responded as well to me as storyline, just

to that balance of the mother and the artist. Um, it definitely like just seeing all the struggle and the fight, we could all just you know what I mean, like chill out just a little bit, like our kids are gonna be okay. Thank you so much, rose Thank you. Thanks again to Liz Tigler and to Rosemary DeWitt for

her time and her incredible, deeply moving performance. And in the interest of things going full circle, much like the series itself, I'd like to finish Little Fires Everywhere the podcast with the woman who started it all, Celeste Ng, who wrote the novel and later was a producer on

the limited series. This is an interview that Liz, take Laura and I did with Celeste Ng from shortly before the series began airing, and now that everybody knows how the series ends, I am excited to share some of celeste thoughts on episode eight, So let's go back in time and take a listen. I think Lauren brought up the idea that you might shift how the the very very end of the show please out versus the book, and I was a little bit apprehensive, but I also thought, okay,

this is it should be its own thing. I kind of like the idea that it might go differently, um, And so I was open to that, and there were a couple of different ideas flitting around, and I remember that I didn't actually know what you had decided. So I didn't know until pretty late whether it was going to be exactly like it was in the book, whether it was going to be unit sort of idea number one. You'd had our idea number two. And Lauren actually said,

don't let anyone spoil it for you. Wait, wait until you see it on the screen. And so one of the big changes is that question of who set the fire? Right. Um. In the book, it's you know, I tell you in the first sentence that is he set the fire, and everybody kind of assumes is he set the fire? And then is he set the fire? Um? This is because I'm I'm not a mystery writer. Um, I it's pretty straightforward. In the first sentence, you know, is he burned the

house down? Everyone assumes, as he burned the house down, and then at the end, is he burn the house down? And in the show it's much more open. At the very beginning, you don't know who burned the house down at Actually that present moment at the beginning of the show ends with you know, do you know anyone who would do this? And that's kind of the question that's hanging over the show, and Liz, I really like the choice that you all made to change how it goes.

I don't know if you want to talk about how you landed on that and why you decided to do it. Yeah, well, we felt like you know, in reading it, I definitely, I mean I felt a couple ways about it. One is, I felt like it was maybe worth considering, not surprising the audience completely, but adding some elements where they thought it was going in one direction and then was going

in another direction. I think, you know, just thinking about again, in a book, it's kind of one thing, but in thinking about adapting a series, you know, a central mystery can be a propellant, good thing to have, and of course in this book, I earned this adaptation and the book, I feel like in the book you have the mystery of me as secret of why she's helping Babe Um, and of of why she came to this town in the first place, and why she moves around, so you

have an underlying secret of the book. Um, but we don't know that secret right away in the teaser of the pilot, and so we felt like not answering the question, leaving an open ended of who would do this would create one propellant mystery in the book, only to reveal slowly another building mystery. But then also I liked the idea of honoring the book in the way of, yeah,

everyone thinks it's easy. You know, lu thinks it's easy. Um, we're sort of ledge to think that it's easy, because she seems like the obvious suspect, right she she she singers her hair in the first episode, right where there's

should we see her playing with fire? There's all these clues I like, not only surprising the audience in some ways, but I feel like what you came up with makes sense for the show as it's put together and as you get to see everybody's strands a little bit more developed that in some ways, everybody in that house had a reason to to want to kind of start things over.

Everybody in that house had this sort of simmering resentment that they needed to kind of get out, um and let burn out in a way, And metaphorically, I like the idea that Izi has been this outcast in her family, she has never felt like they've supported her or that they understand her. And by the end of the show, when you see her siblings kind of acting in solidarity, it's almost like they are apologizing to her. It's almost like they're saying, you know, now we get you in

some ways. It's almost like they're all standing together. And I really liked that idea that in the show, because Zi's arc is sort of more clearly defined um through the stories about her sexuality and scenes of her kind of arguing with her mother, that her siblings have finally understood her in a way that they hadn't understood her

before exactly. And so then by the end you think, Okay, if this kid has been isolated and has been an island in this family except for Moody and really her connection with her father, which was also something we really wanted, then we thought, how can then at the end the siblings really change to see how Izzie has felt. How do they see their family through Izzie's eyes, and how

do they see themselves through Izzie's eyes? And I thought about this kid who felt so adrift and this idea that they would do this as almost like a smoke signal, like this idea of like we're going to make it safe for you, like we are we are a unit, like we are going to be better than our parents were, which is what any new generation thinks. And then I

also really loved telling a story. Well two things. One that Elena takes responsibility for starting this fire, not that she literally means I should be love that, but that she she recognizes that ultimately the responsibility kind of comes to her, that all of the things that have led all of her children to to kind of to do this really at a certain point it's rooted in her.

And there is that sort of moment of of sort of like delayed realization, which really I mean it's it's one moment right in in real time, but it spans the whole show. It goes from the very opening moments to the very closing moments of the show. That's how she realizes that she has been sort of the architect of her own destruction. In that way, I think it's brilliant.

And we talked about that idea of that space between when he asks the question and when she gives her answer as her memory, and that this whole show has been seen through the lens of her memory and understanding

that she started the fire. And I think there's a great like kind of into the woods quality of it, where it doesn't make anyone solely responsible, but everybody is accountable because you know what, Bill started the fire too, and so did Mia by coming to this town, and so did correctly, and so did all those kids, and everybody started and so did Elena's mother by being your mother, and and I think that was it felt um, it felt global, and it felt like this kind of umbrella,

like thematic umbrella that could be over the whole show. Yeah, it'll I think it'll be really fun too for people who have seen the book too in some ways be be surprised by this in the same way that the characters I think are surprised by that. And and it'll be fun for them also sort of to go, Okay, well, you know, why did they do that? To think about what that means and and all of the sort of ramification. As for the show, it is this moment of solidarity

that doesn't happen in the book. In the book, is he is really much more alone? I think her brothers and sisters maybe get her, but she doesn't know that they do. And in this in the show, it's sort of gratifying that there is this this moment where she realizes that they're with her and that they support her, and that she isn't maybe as alone as she thought

she was. Thank you again to Liz tiggle, our In Celeste In, as well as Rosemary DeWitt, Reese Weatherspoon and Carrie Washington and my gosh, everybody that marks the end of Little Fires Everywhere, the official podcast. I've been your host, Jamie Loftus, and I want to thank you and everyone for taking this behind the scenes journey with us to

this incredible limited series. You can still follow us for all things Little Fires Everywhere in terms of updates at Little Fires Hulu and until next time, we'll always have Shaker Bye. It's got a prisident at coming in the d again.