Oh, there you are. There you are. There you are. you are where are you i'm in a uh what do they call it a uh where do they put like the one person during the state of the union so that you survive a nuclear blast oh unsecured location yes which happens to be my basement Welcome to the podcast. So there's certain people in a career that you are always affiliated with. People always think of you, you know...
in the collaborations that you've done together. And there's just something about Demi Moore above and beyond the fact that she's a tremendous movie star, fashion icon, author. And has a new podcast. called Dirty Diana. Wow. Which is where our conversation begins. You know, provocateur, headline grabber, all the things that we know about beautiful, great voice, all the things that we know about Demi.
But there's something about her that has always captured people's imagination in two of the movies that we did together. about last night and St. Elmo's Fire are, I think, kind of emblematic of a very specific time and place. And so there's a lot to unpack with Demi. So... Buckle up for this one. This is, I think, the one you've been waiting for to be more. When I read that you were doing this, I was like, oh.
Wait one fucking second. This is going to be my girl to me with that voice that the world loves and erotica. I'm fucking in. I'm in it to win it. But it is, but it's... You're, I thought you would like literally be reading something, but you're performing. It's a performance series. It's like an, is it? Is it unfair to say it's like what would have been a radio show in the 30s? No, no. 100%. That is what it is. I mean, it's got all of the Foley sound. You have to find the way in which to.
helped the audience move to being you're now in another room, you know, with sounds. And what's interesting is after, you know, when I started to hear the episodes cut together. You know, there's subtle things as actors that we communicate that only through visual. Do you, can you, you know, that...
is kind of felt and, you know, and seen through a slight look where the voice may be expressing something different. So it was a really interesting learning curve, you know, realizing that in some ways you have to be more literal. I learned a lot from your podcast. And one is, like you said, the foley, by the way, for the non-professionals out there, the foley is when you go into a studio and you make footsteps.
Like all the stuff that you've ever seen on screen, half of it has never been recorded. It's been recorded afterward, and that process is called foleying. And my favorite was the first time I ever went to a foley stage watching a love scene. being foley so you can imagine what they do to create those love making noises and let me just say it's fucking gross and it can make you never want to see a love so they
Take their own hands. And they go. Oh, by the way. Okay. By the way, we did kiss our own hands. We did. I mean, yes, we did have to do a few of those. I must say, no, I'm not going to do it. Oh, come on! It was very difficult. trying to time some moments in the love scene that I had to do in this. At least it's equally as awkward as doing it on film.
You know, this podcast is something that's really interesting and beautiful. Shana Festi, who wrote it, based this on her relationship with her husband. And, you know, it's... Very, very personal. And I've never seen something written where it starts with the couple really fractured who end up coming together. Shauna and her husband were at a really low place. They had stopped having sex. Their, you know, relationship...
They had no communication and certainly no communication about sex. And they ended their marriage. He had a girlfriend. She had a boyfriend. And they found their way back. And they today now have three kids. And he produced the podcast. So there was something about that separate than just the aspect of the podcast being... you know, about looking at sex through the female gaze because porn generally or erotica generally...
has been geared towards the male gaze. And, you know, like, it's filmed badly. The stories are bad. I don't believe it. You know, we all know this, like, you know. cookie cutter orgasm sound that's fake as fuck. And so we wanted to have something that actually was an honest reflection of what it is for a woman. And it's an interesting thing because I realized we're not. taught about orgasm. And I feel like young men, they figure it out. Oh, we figure it out. Oh, we figure it out.
So then what happens is you're like, hey, I know how I work. You get with a girl. You don't know how she works. We require a little bit more finesse. We don't know how we work. You don't know how we work. And so then we're left where it's kind of quickly over and it's like, OK, that was it. So it puts us already. at a point of disconnection at the word go. So if we were educated in a way that actually made this conversation just more normal and more open.
Like understanding, like I sat in, I don't know if you, you probably didn't, but I sat in on my kid's sex ed class and I was like. They spoke about disease and fear of being pregnant, male orgasm, because that gets you pregnant. And that was it. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Where's the other discussion? I want to be in that eighth grade class where they hit you with that and then Demi Morris in the back room went, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, what about my orgasm?
It's an important element in changing the future of this that like it's just it's really important. It's really important to kind of blast this wide open because there's a lot of. conditioned shame that resides still. And you know, it's uncomfortable. It's an uncomfortable conversation for a lot of people. What's the reaction been for you? I would say the big thing that's come back is finally.
That's like been one of them. I think we've been in quarantine. So I've heard everything from the best sex I've had, the whole quarantine, to I now need a few minutes alone. But I think that those are the lighthearted ones. I think overall it's been extremely positive. I can't wait to go hear more of them. It's an amazing journey and welcome to the podcast world.
Yes. It's great to have this new outlet in a different way to create. We have received offers to turn this into a show. And so that may very well happen. That'd be awesome. Which would be fun, too. You know what we've never talked about? I don't think in any great detail is our mutual Aaron Sorkin experience. No, we have not.
You know, A Few Good Men is one of those movies that, like The American President, like other movies, like when it's on, you're fucked. Like if you, God help you, if you're, you have somewhere to be. And you turn on the television and a few good men's on. It's over. You're done. You're not going to be wherever you're going. You're done. And you're amazing at it. I don't even know if you knew that after the West Wing, Aaron and I did.
A new version of A Few Good Men on the West End. I didn't know that. Yes, we did 260 performances at the Royal Haymarket Theater. So I'm very well versed in that. And you're so good in that. You're great in everything. But what's your takeaway? Do you have any real memory of what's your best a few good memories? I have like a, you know, there's a few. One.
I had to audition for a few good men. Yes, Aaron, same with... Eight months pregnant, by the way. So I think Tom has expressed that he was like extremely... like almost like embarrassed, uncomfortable, obviously like you, I had known him, you know, for a long time. And so like seeing me in this huge belly, having to do the scenes was just, it was just funny.
That was memorable. And then, you know. Was Aaron there? Was Aaron Sorkin there? He was there a lot. Was he there at the audition? No, he wasn't there at the audition. Because he read with me. He read. He was my acting partner in the audition. Oh, wow. You had Tom Cruise as your acting partner, so you were clearly in a better frame of mind. Yes.
Put it this way, it was a better audition for me than when I had to audition for Top Gun that I did really well on the audition and then tanked the screen test. Wait, wait, wait. How do you tank a screen test? I don't know. For Top Gun? Were you like in a green screen and a jet pilot? No, because you were playing the Kelly McGillis role. Yes. I think I just like got too in my head, got too nervous.
and tanked it. You would have been so... God, the notion of you and Tom in Top Gun, and Kelly McGillis was great, but that's a whole... That's so good. But you know what's interesting? The other... thing about to go back to your question about other memorable moments. And I included it in my book, which is, you know, there was a real push from the executives for there to be a love scene.
between Tom and I and A Few Good Men. And just the subject matter and the whole tone, it was never there, you know, on Broadway. No. just wasn't right. What made it interesting is that it wasn't there, but that particular time period, and so there was... an interview that Aaron gave, which I didn't know until I saw this later, where when he was being pushed to make a love scene and the executives said,
If there's not going to be a love scene, then what's Demi Moore doing in it? Like, essentially, why is there a woman in it? What's the point? What's my value? Which was so... I don't know, kind of indicative of the time period. Yeah, for sure. But I just am so grateful that he and Rob both stuck to... the truth, keeping it, you know, authentic to what it should have been, which made it more interesting, you know, the relationship. That's one of those stories that you know is true.
from a studio executive at that era, some dude said that. Definitely. Definitely. It was like not at that. Yeah, you're right. There was no reach for that. There's no reach. And for those of you who are not doing the math on this, Aaron Sorkin wrote West Wing, wrote A Few Good Men, wrote American President, and he's notorious. And he's a guest, upcoming guest on the podcast. Here's what was interesting. When I did West Wing, the...
We would talk about A Few Good Men because it's an iconic thing. The movie is iconic. But people forgot how iconic the play was. Before the movie, the movie has taken up so much space in people's imagination, justifiably. It's you and Tom, giant stars and a huge hit with Rob Ryan. Jack! I mean, come on. Jack, come on. You want us on that. Anyway, go on.
It's the best. Do you know what I watched the other day? Here's the scene I watched. You can have all the paperwork you want, but you're going to have to ask me nicely. I'm sorry. And like, you're right. You're in. You're right there. in like three steps behind Tom and all the coverage for this unbelievable. Yes. It's so intense. I mean, it was so intense. And what was it like to be there for Jack throwing down like that? You know what? First of all, you know, when we look at actors that you...
one we just look up to and where you're being shown the right way to do something. So in the big courtroom scene that was Jack's big day, they shot everything the other direction first. So it was like... on the courtroom when he took the stand. By the way, for those of you who do, listen, courtroom scenes for actors and dinner table scenes are horrible because you have to shoot everybody. So think of how many people were in a courtroom.
So literally before Jack gets on camera, he's done it 60, 70 times. So many times. So and, you know, doing all the different actors coverage and. And he literally gave like 110 the entire fucking day. No way. I mean, I'm telling you, I kept thinking, wow, he's going to lose his voice. So what's there on camera was literally the end of the day. And I'm sure that...
You know, Rob may have, you know, given him the option and maybe he wanted it that way because it was such a big scene. But that was like one of those things where you just like looking at. It's someone that you really look up to where you're just, you just know like that's somebody who's like showing you the right way to be.
They're showing up for the other actors generously, no matter who they are or where they're at. And I just had such appreciation for watching him that day. And every day. The only day that... You know, what's interesting is that, you know, we know how much he loves the Lakers. And there was a big day when they were going to...
when Magic Johnson was going to give the news conference that he was HIV positive. So the sun was going down, we're shooting the Guantanamo thing, and we couldn't get Jack out of his trailer because he was like waiting. Yeah. And didn't want to miss that moment. I'm sure. Other than that, it was just like, great. It was easy. It was Jack. No pressure. It's so funny because, you know, Jack, again, one of my idols, certainly.
And coming up and even living on, I think I ended up living on Mulholland as a young actor because Jack lived on Mulholland and Warren Beatty lived on Mulholland. And I think I. Got Laker seats because that's what the – you kind of – you build your life around, you know, what you think is cool and your heroes. And there's something about Jack who's cool personified and somehow there's –
At least for me, in my perception, there was always, like, it was surprising to me his workmanlike ethic with coolness. Like, you don't associate workmanlike. and craftsmanship and humility with cool. Right? No, you're 100% right. Like, you think of it as, you know, somebody who's breaking the rules.
Yes. Like, you know, Jack, he didn't show up till five o'clock every day, but everybody waited for him. And oh, God, he came out of his trailer and he was drunk as a skunk. But man, when the camera was on, he really put it together. All that bullshit you hear about other people. He and he definitely. was not that. He was highly professional, highly, you know, like he set a standard that you also wanted to like live up to, wanted to reach, which was great.
I'm inspired third-hand hearing it from a story that happened many years ago. But, you know, it's like those are the things where you just, like, you step back and just, like, feel such a depth of gratitude for... all that we've experienced and seen and done. Hold the thought. We'll be right back. It's such sad news that our buddy Joel Schumacher has left us. I had no idea that he was sick. We had been having just text exchanges.
Joel, for those of you, Joel directed St. Elmo's Fire among other – and Flatliners and Batman and, I mean, and just – On and on and on. But he was a huge part of our life. And that's how you and I met. Yep. In his office. First time I ever remember seeing you. Actually, it's not true. I remember seeing you walk onto the lot. So I.
I was going to ask you this because there are – oh, I wasn't going to ask you this. I was not going to ask you this for fear that you wouldn't remember the first time you saw me and my ego would be crushed. It might be possible. I have some big – I have big black spots. I do have some, I mean, maybe my hard drive is just so full that I, I've got to unload. I'm serious. There are, there is like.
Some gaps of shit I don't remember. And then there's other stuff that I remember so detailed that it's like annoying. I know. Well, I remember the first time I saw you. Because I was, so there was this script called St. Elmo's Fire. It was floating around and everybody, it was a kind of an it script and everybody loved it. But I fancied myself as a lead in movies already and wasn't going to be, wasn't going to sully.
my hands with being an ensemble, certainly. But I kept hearing about this. I kept hearing about this script and this script and this script. I mean, I had just worked with the great Tony Richardson on Hotel New Hampshire, don't you know, which is going to be nominated for an Oscar. And of course. Did not. I don't think anybody saw it. Anyway, so I was very fancy. And but then eventually I broke down and read the script and it was fucking great. And.
I really fell in love with the role of Billy Hicks, the drunken saxophone playing womanizing. Gee, I wonder why. I wonder what part of that. I wonder what your draw was. I don't know. What do you think that was? Drunken, womanizing, music loving. Big stretch. So they wanted me to play the Judd Nelson role. Like, they were not interested in me. And this is actually kind of amazing. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Oh, no, they did not.
They couldn't comprehend that I could be a bad boy. I showed them, by the way. But they could not comprehend. I was like this preppy, pretty. sort of well-raised, do-gooding Ohio. Like, and so they were like not, they weren't going to do it. So I had to go and meet Joel. It wasn't really an audition, but I had to go and like kiss the ring for this fucking ensemble.
So I go to the lot to meet Joel Schumacher. I look down, you know, Warner Brothers is that amazing, iconic lot. It's at the end of Blazing Saddles. It's iconic. There's something about that lot that is iconic. And the sun is hitting the buildings perfectly. And this woman walks out into the street and... I didn't realize it was you. It was you. You were wearing your hair. You need to explain this to me. Do you know you're wearing your hair? No, continue. Okay. I'm telling you, there's...
You'll know, like, the story you told me about the studio executive. Like, when I tell you how you're wearing your hair, you're going to know it's true because I couldn't possibly make this up. I mean, just knowing the time period, I'm just already imagining something that's so cringable. No, no. I remember it how many years later. So you did the right thing. Your hair was long.
as it always was. And it was, you had a big straw hat on, either a cowboy hat or some kind of a big straw hat on top of your head, but your long hair underneath it was wrapped up. And around and on top of and basically hiding the hat. To this day, I... That's very funny. I can totally, like, I know, like, absolutely, because I have done that before. Okay. Just to, like, I mean, there's a lot here, but, you know.
Like I can tie it in a bow on the top of my head, but. Oh my God, I'm watching you do this right now. This is, oh my God, you should have done that. You were like a hair magician. To me more, hair magician. What was I thinking on this? I mean, I remember, you know, the big thing is that when I came to meet Joel. I was fancying myself as like being kind of, you know, super cool. And I was, you know, riding a motorcycle. Amazing. Of course, with no license, because who saw the point in that?
No. That was just a waste of my time. Really? I was also drunk at the audition. You were? Yeah, because they thought I was a square. So I physically brought a six-pack into the audition. But all it made me do is want to pee the whole time. Yeah, I could see how that would happen. But it worked. They were like, Joel was going for it.
Joel loved having you on the set. The other thing I love about St. Elmo's Fire is in this, Joel did this to the day he died. God bless him. Even the most recent photos I saw of Joel. He was the instigator of a trend that didn't ever catch on, but he went down swinging with the trend. And the trend is multiple jackets layered upon each other. I mean, that's work. If you notice in St. Elmo's Fire, I have a Levi jacket and a Letterman's jacket on top of each other and on and on and on.
That was Joel's thing. He was going to make that a national thing. It just never really happened, I don't think. I don't know. There are some people that carry that on. I always, you know, Joel always looked to me. Like... George O'Keefe? Yes. He looked like George O'Keefe. Yeah, he did. He looked like George O'Keefe. 100%. He did, with his look. Well, I am most grateful for him, for sure. And, you know, the other thing...
about Joel. And I'm sure that's what you're alluding to because you write about it in your book, which, by the way, is fantastic. But Joel was one of the people who was, you know, was responsible in you getting sober. And you getting sober, you're the first person I ever knew who got sober. You were. And I don't know, and I think I've told you this, but if I haven't, I mean, I can't tell you what that's meant to me and what it did mean to me. And when it was time for me to get sober.
um i was like you know i had somebody that i could like i know it worked for i mean i think having for people to know people who it worked because Let's face it, a lot of times it doesn't and it doesn't take and all those things. And I don't mean this the way it's going to sound, but I was like, fuck, if she can do it, anybody can do it. And I only mean that because we were fucking wild.
And we were really we were super young, which makes it hard to wrap your head around when that should be your time. Like, yeah, this is when we're like trying everything. And, you know, look. Joel was doing for me what he couldn't do for himself because he got sober so many years later. And I didn't realize that, obviously, until he also got sober. But I had never had somebody really champion.
Like there was no reason. Like I didn't have any huge box office for him to really be sticking his neck out. It was an ensemble. They could have definitely. filled that with any number of young and up-and-coming actresses. And the fact that he allowed me to start the movie... with 15 days of sobriety, that they paid for me to have a companion. And that companion, they had to pay for 24-7 for the entire shoot. It just was not...
heard of, you know, like I think anybody else, you know, there's a good chance that I would have just been looked at as a liability. 100 percent. The number two choice. But meanwhile, it gave me something to value because I didn't value myself enough, that is for sure, to have any reason. to be sober. So losing that, and I said this in the book, I don't know if I would have been able to do it. I didn't see myself as worth anything.
And so, you know, it's like I love hearing that that reflection supported you in seeing that it was possible because I think we do help a lot of people even when we don't realize it or it's indirect. But it gives meaning and helps me to know the value of it. And as somebody who took an interesting detour away from being sober...
You know, I really value it even more so now. Let me ask you something about that. And that's the other thing that's inspiring about you is the only thing that's more inspiring about people than people getting sober. Or the people get sober, fall off the wagon, and then get sober again. That's stud shit. It's, look, as you can imagine in different ways, like...
Opening the door, because I've been sober more of my adult life than not, like practically all of it, I felt so stupid. Like, how stupid? that I opened this door when I knew better. I knew that this just doesn't work. I don't have an off switch. I don't have... The thing that tells me, particularly with alcohol, that I've had enough. I wish I did. I just don't. But when I opened that door, knowing everything that I know, I felt like...
I've got to figure out how to manage this. I have to figure out how to make it work because if I've been stupid enough to open this door, I've got to prove it. And so it made it harder. to reach back and it's not get sober. It's just even having to face. my choice that's what it is it was like my ego didn't want um want to have to face what i uh the choice i had made but i will say you know once i really turned around um
I'm so much more free. Does it feel different this time, though? I feel like I am staying closer to my support system, more engaged. I feel like I always allowed for the principles, particularly through the program of AA, but I know if I had stepped closer to the fellowship and...
meetings, when it was presented to me, the idea of, you know, that maybe alcoholism is, isn't a real thing. It's just about moderation. It wouldn't have even been something I would have entertained. People would have been like, what? So I definitely feel a lot of appreciation. And I also, I mean, there's a part of me that can say, why did I need to do that? But I accept that I did need to do it.
And for whatever reason, and I am stronger, certainly I'm stronger and deeper within myself because of it. It's great. I take. great um i mean it empathy and and it's it's i'm glad when I'm glad when people come back into the program in recovery and tell me what it's like out there so I don't have to go do it myself. I had a really, really, really good friend, a really good friend who you mutually would know.
was sober forever. And, but he was young, really young, really young. And he was like, I just feel like I want to, I mean, I've been sober. I get it. I'm not going to go use drugs or I don't want to do any of that, but like, God, I'm young. And like, I'm going to be working in Europe. And, you know, it's like. I could have a glass of wine at dinner or whatever. And I'm like, okay. So on the, this is my favorite. So on the flight to Europe to go work, he orders his first glass of wine.
Within six months, he's in jail for biting a cop in the belly button. Yowzer. Go figure. So I'm like. Okay. It's like you can almost like clockwork when somebody hits you with it. You know, I was just thinking maybe when they hit you with that, you can almost start the stopwatch. Yeah. I mean, I. I can say I didn't like it. The decline wasn't like immediate. But that's the scariest part in a weird way. Right. Maybe. Well, the effort of negotiating, though.
Because I don't have a thing that helps me know how much is too much. So it's like that constant effort of negotiating. Like, oh, you've had two. Well, maybe I can have two. And it's like the relief. of it just being off the table. It's just, like, I don't need anything to have a good time. And look, I have eight and a half years now. Jesus. And I had almost 20 before.
I open the door. So every once in a while, certainly in the early days of this second go round, my, you know, my ego really struggled with having to say, I've got 30 days. I've got, you know. Three months, six months, when I kept comparing what I would have. But I worked through that because what I do know is that life is happening for you, not to you. And I just had to open myself up to see what it was trying to give me. And as opposed to what I had lost. And we'll be right back.
After this. I think Ghost is my favorite Demi Moore movie. Other than About Last Night. Listen, it always feels like About Last Night is a black hole that... You never talk about, I never talk about, people never talk about, and yet it's fucking great. You like that movie, right? I thought it was amazing. And you know what? It really... you know, captured a time. I mean, there's so many people that of a certain generation that it completely, you know, connected with.
uh, represented, I mean, the moment when I say it's official, I've become my mother. I mean, like, I can't tell you how many people have, have, have like identified with that. You know, when I'm creeping out after the first time, you know, Danny and Debbie sleep together and I'm like trying to get out of there. That was, you know. That was really a different perspective than the guy slipping out. You know, it was definitely, you know, an interesting statement of a different.
trying to really reflect that women, you know, were not just waiting for the man. It's true. And then the sort of traditional roles were reversed. There's that great... sequence that people quote to me all the time, although it's your line that they quote where I'm suspicious and jealous that you may or may not have been having an affair with a guy at work. And you're like, I don't really think it's any of your business. I'm like, well.
Did you sleep with him? And you're like, no, Dan, we were bowling partners. And I'm like, oh, so you fucked up. So it's like I'm cast in like the shrew like role. But that's the one, you know, when people talk about 80s movies and Brat Pack stuff. And for me, that's the one I want people to watch. I love St. Elmo's Fire. It's a different thing.
But like About Last Night's a real movie. It's a real movie. It's the performance. You're so good at it. Elizabeth Perkins is. Is amazing. Ridiculous. And Jim. Jim. Jim is. Jim Belushi, just so other people don't know. And I thought it was, you know what? I felt like it was for us a, like a move to a grownup. movie like we went in a way to like it went from being kids to grown up and um
You know what's amazing about that, though, to me? Here's what's amazing. And you just said exactly what I always try to tell people and they can't wrap their minds about it. There was a time in the movie business. Where if you were a 20 something, you could not wait to graduate to real movies. Or grown up movies. Those movies don't exist anymore. Now. I mean, look, we really didn't have a lot of young people in leads of movies.
Like, think about it. I mean, we were doing these ensemble pieces, all the John Hughes stuff. But in general, we didn't have young people. Doing that, like getting into like the serious movies. Exactly. Real movies. Our movies were never considered. And this is what's great about time. Time weeds out all the bullshit and you remember what's important or whatever. But when we made those movies, nobody – the real people didn't give a fuck. They got bad reviews. They were looked at as –
teen movies, and they weren't real movies. Real movies were Terms of Endearment. By the way, they are real movies. Those movies are amazing. But our movies weren't those. No way. They were like this side hustle. But I think that's a real reflection that that people of a certain age weren't valued. You know, it's like still a little bit of that like holdover from. you know, when kids were still owned as opposed to being their own person. And so thereby there weren't really...
We were part of the beginning of stories about young people. And now you look at it, I mean, they're a whole demographic that are, you know... served and served generously. Because about last night felt like we had graduated to the big leagues. Like we were on our way. We were going to do serious. which of course happened, but it's the notion that those earlier movies were the minor leagues. That's what's kind of amazing to...
To look back. And now we can look at it. Now, like, there are barely movies at all. So we were definitely. All the movies that I, the movies I grew up loving and the movies that inspired me. would not be movies today. If they were made at all, they would be an eight part. You're not making Deliverance. Deliverance. If they make Deliverance today, it's an eight part Netflix show about a group of guys.
who get into it on the river, that they'll make it. Deliverance totally gets made today, but it's not a summer movie made with... Five of the biggest stars. It's just not. I mean, Terms of Endearment is not a summer release movie. Midnight Cowboy is a movie that you would make for scale.
And maybe it gets picked up at Sundance. Maybe, maybe if you're lucky. And look, it's different time. And I don't like to, I don't want to like say, oh, one was better over the other. It's just, it's definitely different. Like having something that's in a. longer form, which I actually haven't done yet. You know, doing something that's a limited series or I think is also... kind of really amazing as an actor to be able to explore a character in a way that evolves. I mean, you've done it.
both in drama and in comedy. And I just haven't really explored that format yet. But I think there's something great about it. I don't know. What do you think? Yes or no? I do. I think I think that people I think the difference between sort of movie acting and versus versus TV and theater acting in particular is. You're playing the character in a movie. You're living the character on television just because of the amount of hours that you physically are that person.
You know, in what's going on in your personal life. It's like you're dealing with grief or your kid had a birthday party or you're late to do this. It's like every iteration of life you can imagine, you're going to experience. during the run of a television show, if it's long enough. There's only so much life experience that you're going to go through in the four months or six months of a movie. So you are truly living.
the character which is it which is i think like you said it's a it's of equal totally equal value and i agree i don't want to be like the man like the You know, they all go, ah, not all day is the movie business. Because it's not that. There's so much good stuff that would never be done. But the notion that it's the same is crazy tunes. Crazy tunes. So different. I've said to my kids for years that the only thing in life that you can count on is change. It's the only true constant. Yeah.
And then, which means we have to have the ability to change with the change. And a lot of people, I mean, everybody struggles with it. I struggle with it. I'm not an early adapter to stuff. I'm not. And things happen so rapidly. Like, in fact, I'm deeply, hence, I didn't ever want to do Planet Hollywood in the 80s. Like, I'm like such a curmudgeon that like anything sort of newfangled.
By the way, curmudgeon in the word newfangled. I rest my fucking case. Who else uses that word? I have to, like, though, reflect back to you. Look at how many things, though, that you've explored and tried. That's true. You're, you know, going and doing theater, doing theater in another country, you know, like jumping in to do West Wing. Like that was like at that moment, that was like a really.
huge leap to step out from having just really been in film to do that. And like, there's a lot from then jumping in, you know, to do Parks and Rec. to doing this podcast. So you may come to it a little bit later, but you come to it. Well, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. I mean, it's like, it's weird.
I'm good at adapting and like to because I like the challenge and I like the uncertainty and I like the seeing if I can jump off the high dive of it all of different things in career wise. And sometimes, by the way, sometimes it gets me into trouble. I mean, there are times, you know, when I famously did a song and dance number with Snow White at the Academy Awards. They asked me to do it. I was like, yeah, this sounds really great. Some scary. It was a fucking unmitigated.
Oh, and you'll love this because you work with Barry Levinson. So like it cuts both ways, right? Like being bold is really, really good. But then you also are bold and you find yourself. In front of a billion people looking out at the audience doing a song and dance number with Snow White. And all you can see is Barry Levinson's face. And he's about to win eight Oscars for Rain Man. And his face is literally going, what the fuck? That's what I saw looking out at Barry Levinson. And then.
Every year I get to be a punching bag when the Oscars roll around of like most embarrassing Oscars moments. I'm number one. No one's come. Actually, you'd think that when they couldn't figure out how to actually announce the best picture. that maybe that might be more embarrassing? No. There's a few. I'm sure that you're in some good company.
There's a few, there is some, there's some good, but I, but the, and you know, you can't bat a thousand, you know, you can't bat a thousand and, you know, a, you know, a 20. 23-year-old kid is not going to say to Marvin Hamlish, you know, who's won 17 Oscars for The Sting and everything. I was like, I don't think the lyrics to this song are kind of, I don't think they're very good, Mr. Hamlish. It's not going to happen.
Right? So, yeah. No, it's the lessons that we learn. We could write a book, which is why we have. It's like those are those beautiful gifts that are happening for you. It was like a beautifully humbling, you know, ego-crushing gift. Right? Oh, yes. I mean, we all have, and that's the other thing is, if you haven't had your time in the barrel, you're not in the barrel. Like, if you don't go through your batting slump, you're not in the major leagues.
It comes for everybody, right? Even Robert Redford. It doesn't matter what actor, Jack Nichols, who you are, you can look at anybody's filmography and go, wow, that's a cold streak. And that's the gift of it because if you're around long enough, the sheer math catches up with you. I think that's the thing in life that is, you know, part of the illusion that we think that it's, you know, when you're sitting on the other side, you think it's like just about the winds.
When nothing stays at that level. And if it did, one, it would be really uninteresting. Like if you knew every time that you were going to hit it out of the park. Pretty soon, it would be really boring. It's like that great... That great episode of Twilight Zone with Sebastian Cabot, where the gambler has a heart attack in the casino and he wakes up in a room that's white. It's an all white casino. There are hot women everywhere. And he he's like, oh, my God, this is everything I ever thought.
Heaven would be. This is amazing. And he wins and he wins and he wins. And finally goes to Sebastian Cabot, who's like the emcee of the host and says, hey, listen, I know that in heaven all your dreams come true, but it would really be interesting as a gambler.
I need to feel the thing that I, there's a possibility that I might lose. So if you could arrange that maybe every once in a while I could lose and Sebastian Cabot looks and says, what makes you think this is heaven? Yeah, that's, and that. That's it. Like, it's, you know, I can certainly say, you know, that my crashes are by far... where I've had the greatest, you know, enlightenment, the greatest awakening, the greatest opportunity.
for knowing myself and facing myself and loving and learning to love myself. It's not, the winds aren't, you know, what have made me get closer. to feeling good about me. I mean, they feel good and it's nice, but it's the, you know, it's when I've been at my lowest. that I feel like I, you know, have become my greatest. So without it, you know, we would flatline. In a way, you're not alive. So, I mean...
This is why I love doing this podcast. I love it so much. I love to have people like you on who occupy such a big place in people's memory and consciousness. And then to be able to... Show the part of you that only people who really know you well ever get to see, you know, that part of you that I know and love, which is how unbelievably thoughtful you are and how hard you work on yourself. And have been since day one. And what an inspiration you've been to me. Thank you.
This has been everything I thought it would be and more. Really. And more. See, get it. Wow. That was, I hope that was as much fun for you guys as it was for me. I could have talked to her for another five days. There's just so much to cover in just her life, my history with her. our similarities and what we've been through. But I hope it was what it was for you, pulling up a chair and being a fly on the wall of two old friends who've been through the wars together.
Really proud of that episode. That was really fun. I had a blast. And thank you for being a part of it. Thank you for listening. And if you enjoyed it, go and give us a rating. Those ratings mean a lot. And I read them. So you better be nice. Because sometimes your email is attached to them. I'm not saying I'll reach out to you, but I might. I'll see you next week on Literally with Rob Lowe.
You have been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe. Produced and engineered by me, Devin Torrey Bryant. Executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile. Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. and Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blair. Talent producer, Jennifer Samples. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts. And remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.