[00:00:00] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Our next guest. is known internationally for the study of the causes and consequences of chronic procrastination. I found him purely out of curiosity of how good I felt when I was organized.
[00:01:12] Colette Brown: And I wanted to know if there had been any research on this or if anybody else felt the same as me. I was pleasantly surprised to see that all the research had been done. our next guest. Professor of Psychology and St. Vincent de Paul Distinguished Professor at DePaul university, Chicago, Illinois, author of over 400 scholarly publications and 700 conference presentations.
[00:01:38] He is a permanent deacon in the Roman Catholic church serving in the diocese of Joliet, Illinois, since August of 2013, the author of the highly successful popular book, still procrastinating the no regrets guide to getting it done. It is my great honor to welcome Deacon Joseph Ferrari.
[00:02:00] Welcome.
[00:02:00] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Thank you, Collette. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:02] Colette Brown: you're highly decorated and you've done so much research and you're a public speaker. You're all these things and, I'm so happy that I was able to find you.
[00:02:14] So if you could tell us where you grew up and maybe a favorite childhood memory that might be relevant to today.
[00:02:21] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Sure. I was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, the native New Yorker. However, since 1994, 93, 94 have been living here in the Chicago area. I like Chicago a little bit better.
[00:02:35] you can never take the Brooklyn out of the person but, Chicago is New York. Without the attitude, the people here seem friendlier. I grew up in New York in the 60s and 70s, and it's different today. So listeners don't be put off by what I said.
[00:02:49] You got to put it in context. It was a different time. On one corner of the block in Brooklyn, on Avenue N, Was, the American Legion, Floyd Bennett Post, and on the other end on Avenue M was Mary Queen of Heaven Catholic Church. that tells you, what my block was like.
[00:03:07] my father never finished high school. My mom did. We were working class.
[00:03:13] when my grandfather emigrates to the United States, he brings this apprenticeship occupation of sharpening knives for butchers, restaurants, bagel stores, any place that has a need for a knife. To the united states and my father carries that tradition. My parents have four children this could only be passed on from to son or grandson
[00:03:33] basically a family of lower working class, education is the American dream. So we've all had college degrees, my three brothers and my sister and, my brothers have a master's degree and I went on for a doctorate, started teaching at community colleges on the East coast, and published a college professor is not the same as a high school teacher.
[00:03:55] there's an expression the high school teacher knows the book the college professor wrote the book So there's a difference so to me even on the community College level. All right. You are a scholar. You have to publish.
[00:04:09] And I used to, even though I taught lots of classes but people said, you don't have your PhD. You don't have the union card. So I went back on a school in Long Island called Adelphi University. and you cannot get my PhD there anymore because it was an experimental psych, but I got that degree.
[00:04:26] Started teaching, wound up in two year colleges a colleague at DePaul said, Joe, you know how to teach, you know how to publish, but you don't know how to write federal grants.
[00:04:36] If you're willing to come with me, I'll teach you how to write grants. So I did that and had 4. 2 million dollars of NIH grants. we did that for 13 years and then I said, that's enough of that. So yeah, I do work on procrastination, but it's not what I primarily did.
[00:04:52] Colette Brown: how did you come into that?
[00:04:54]
[00:04:54] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: a story on everything.
[00:04:56] Colette Brown: Yes.
[00:04:56] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: here I am in a graduate course, on self defeating behavior. the teacher was a social psychologist, retraining for clinical psych.
[00:05:05] she was interested in self destructive, self defeating, self handicapping behaviors. And so I remember raising my hand and saying, I don't know where it came from, but it is procrastination, a self handicap, self defeating, she said, yes. Okay, she goes on and that's not good enough. I want to know, but can you tell me a little bit more?
[00:05:25] What's the research? She goes, I don't know what the research is But someone must have done it this is like 1985 before the internet, so I opened my notebook write down procrastination in the back after class go to the library And I find nothing on the topic, nothing really scholarly.
[00:05:41] There's about 200 papers, but they were on career indecision.
[00:05:46] Colette Brown: interesting. Okay.
[00:05:48] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: And writer's block. Okay. Also not quite the same. As a social psychologist, I wonder what are the causes, and consequences of this? And again, a thing, again, for your listeners, one of the things you may hear in graduate school, if you're in doctoral programs is.
[00:06:03] You can do research that everybody else does join the bandwagon and you have a lot to fall back on Or you can go off in a new path that no one has done anything with now That's scary because you don't have a lot to fall back on but it's also and i'm kind of this way I'm a new yorker a pompous in the way that you know, this is a way of Getting your name associated with a concept, and I like that.
[00:06:26] So I spent a lot of doing work on procrastination. People still ask me about that, but then I moved into this topic on clutter. And there's a story on that, which is another area. And in between, lots of other things, people. Imposter phenomena, shame and guilt, attitude change persuasion, blood donating, safety belts shopping carts getting people to turn down headsets,
[00:06:47] published often with community college students, which is also fascinating because most people say they, they're not able to do that. That's poopoo. All the people will rise to what you expect I'd love to do a talk with you on procrastination, but that itself is a good hour.
[00:07:01] That's okay. We'll do, we'll do another
[00:07:03] Colette Brown: episode.
[00:07:04] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Yes clutter I can do a little less because there isn't a lot there's about 16 pubs
[00:07:10] Most of my research goes with a colleague from the University of New Mexico, Dr. Catherine Roster. She is a consumer psychologist. So her interest was on what we purchase? I am a social community psychologist, a field most of your listeners here, you may guys may not know what that is because you know, clinical, and you may even know experimental, but, and you might even know industrial business, but you won't know the community.
[00:07:35] And yet, as I'm going to talk about it, you might say, I've heard of those concepts, community psych has been around since 65, and it talks about empowering. communities being an advocate as the researcher. How do I work with you? Not that top down I know best, but what can I do to enhance what you do?
[00:07:56] How do I prevent problems? The analogy is people are drowning in a river while the clinical psychologist will jump in and save one at a time. The community psychologist is wait. Before people go in the water, can we teach them to swim? Can we prevent the problem? The community psychologist walks along the shore and sees that people are on a cliff falling in.
[00:08:19] Can I make systemic change so they don't fall in? some of your listeners may know positive psychology. Yeah, but we were here first that came out in the eighties. This was in the sixties. So it's a really small area, but when you want to make change, if you really want to help people, you do community psych
[00:08:37] if you want to help a person, you do clinical. So that's what people don't always understand.
[00:08:41] Colette Brown: thank you
[00:08:41] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: I like that. community psych is a whole nother topic, you want to make a change in life. You want to leave a legacy. that's what community psych is all about.
[00:08:49] How do I make the life of other people better? How do I enhance it? And it doesn't have to be through clinical or social work. public health is a cousin of ours. social work, public service. All of those, but community psych is psychology, and therefore there's measurement.
[00:09:04] All right, Dr. Roster and I meet at the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. I've got to do a shout out for them. ICD. if you're attracted to this topic because you have clutter, then you need an ICD coach, a decluttering coach. So it was a good 10, 12 years ago. They invite me to talk about procrastination and, and clutter.
[00:09:28] And I do. And at the end of that meeting, I meet roster, And we just hit it off. She had, been, their go to researcher. When a study would come out that seems something about organization, they'd ask her, tell us, is this a good study? Is this worthwhile?
[00:09:43] So these are professional, you know, Decluttering coaches. They are not psychologists necessarily. They may have a degree in that. They may not. There are people who love to organize. Now I'll go back to the title. They're the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. Nowhere does the word clutter enter their language because for them it's all about.
[00:10:05] organization and that's why this is perfect for your topic.
[00:10:09] Colette Brown: Yeah.
[00:10:09] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: So I set the roster. I'm interested in psychological home. What does home mean to people? The house that's a dwelling. what does it mean to be home?
[00:10:19] You eat me out of house and home we say That's my home. home is not the same as house in our culture. people say homeless is probably one of the last politically incorrect, acceptable titles that we use for people. Cause what does that mean to say your home?
[00:10:37] Less. That means you're less than me because you don't have a home. Well, these people aren't homeless. They're unhoused. proper word to use. They don't have a dwelling. as a Catholic deacon, I believe we all have a home with God. So they're never homeless.
[00:10:54] Colette Brown: They're unhoused.
[00:10:55] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: All right. So I'm interested in what is this meaning of home for us? and talking, I remember early days talking to military families, students would say, We moved around a lot, but I had a home. I didn't have a dwelling, a house.
[00:11:09] Some older people. My generation people, I should say,would say, we used to have a landline phone. I still have mine. That was home because no matter what I did, wherever I went, if I dialed that number, It went to that home right now. We've lost that, right? We have these mobile phones,
[00:11:27] most of the studies we've done have looked at home and clutter. And I've also done work on office clutter. I want to give a shout out to, Catherine Roster and a whole bunch of research, students, undergrads and grads, uh, well, what do we mean by clutter? Clutter is not the same as hoarding.
[00:11:44] I like to use the analogy. I think of hoarding as, vertical. You have lots of the same stuff. Clutter it's breath. It's horizontal.
[00:11:54] Colette Brown: Okay. So
[00:11:54] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: hoarding, toilet paper, toilet paper, toilet paper, toilet paper, toilet paper. Vertical. With another one, it's a lots of stuff.
[00:12:00] It's toilet paper and magazines and, and this and that. Hoarding is a psychiatric disorder. Clutter is not.
[00:12:06] So hoarders have clutter, but clutterers may not be hoarders. your living space is impacted by all these items. It causes you distress. It impairs your ability to function. How roster and I. from our 2016, first major study in this field defined clutter as an overabundance of possessions.
[00:12:28] it's overabundance, too much, that create a chaotic and disorganized living space. So overabundance. that sounds like a tipping point. There's a point where it's just too much. Where is that tipping point good question? Depends on the person,
[00:12:44] Colette Brown: right?
[00:12:44] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: a point of too much,
[00:12:46] Colette Brown: but
[00:12:46] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: having too much isn't the problem, right?
[00:12:49] Go back to the definition collectively. It's chaotic it causes you, your living space to be disorderly and unfunctionable, So in 2016, Roster and I published an article, The Dark Side of Home, people think home is good. So let me move into how we measure clutter.
[00:13:06] we use the clutter quality of life scale developed through the ICD members. Through our connection with them, we said, can we use your, your clients and, and ask them to fill out a measure we developed. And from that, we've come up with an 18 item measure called the clutter quality of life scale, which looks in four different domains, livability of the space.
[00:13:29] How much is that space impacted by these items, distress and emotions, does having all this stuff, cause distress. What's your emotional reaction people don't always talk about or think about maybe is how does the clutter impact my relationship with others?
[00:13:47] Because it isn't always just about me, it's with others. we explore that and the financial impact of clutter. I remember reading a corporate company that says Americans have over 7, 000 of unused stuff. Clutter in their home. Well, think about this. I don't have to go to the store anymore I can stay and there's more than one of these channels, but I can watch on tv a channel that says buy this You gotta have this.
[00:14:16] Oh life is better with this You better have this and I don't even have to go You know, I can just click and order it and we're going to ship it to you tomorrow. No charge And you don't have to pay it all now. We'll make you pay it over. So people are sitting there buying. All right. This sounds like great.
[00:14:32] we've taken our wants and made them needs if I don't have it, my life isn't good. And I tell people, no, you have to have air. You have to have water, you have to have food. You don't have to have iPhone 16, you'd like to have iPhone 16, but it's not quite the same.
[00:14:49] So we've looked at four different domains and its impact in terms of clutter. And the financial wellbeing is a very fascinating one because we spend a lot and we don't use things.
[00:14:58] what are the consequences of clutter in life? Low psychological well being. the more clutter you have, the lower your Happiness and joy, which takes me to the next one, mood that you'll also have. So here we are told in our culture, you gotta have, it's going to make your life better.
[00:15:15] You're going to be happy with it. Isn't it awesome if you have it. And we actually find Roster and I, that the more you have, the less happy you are. The less sense of home you have. well, you see other
[00:15:27] Colette Brown: cultures that, don't have as much as we do and happiness level is higher.
[00:15:32] Yes.
[00:15:32] Isn't that interesting? we hear you gotta have needs not wants these slow wellbeing, more mood disorders, people get more distress more unhappiness. more to manage more to care for.
[00:15:44] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Yes. And I don't have enough like everybody else and they've got more than me.
[00:15:48] So I must not be as worthwhile So mood is different than emotion. Mood is a temporary state. Emotion is a deeper thing. So there's a difference between joy, that's an emotion, and, and happiness, which is a mood.
[00:16:03] if we have time, we'll come back to the famous quote Keep it if it brings you joy.
[00:16:08] Colette Brown: Yes.
[00:16:09] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: I want to talk about why that's wrong on a number of levels,
[00:16:12] Negative emotions about the self. Another thing we found was that the more clutter you have, the less satisfied with yourself. We didn't do this study, but others have found that there's an over consumption of unhealthy food by the more clutter you have. No, I know this is going to sound like a stereotype or image, but.
[00:16:31] There's some truth to stereotypes small, but there's a truth to that's why they exist. you think of the couch potato sitting there buying things clicking away. often eating unhealthy foods? so we find the more clutter the more unhealthy foods
[00:16:44] Colette Brown: Okay So why is it so hard to declutter? Let's talk about that. People not wanting to let go, right?
[00:16:50] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Yeah. Why is it so hard? it could be emotionally stressful. Now, it could be emotionally distressful to keep and to get rid of something, right?
[00:16:59] So, if I pick the item up, it might bring back a bad memory. Or, that was that fight we had. that horrible vacation. no, I'm just going to put it away. Or it could bring back positive memories. that awesome vacation. I don't want to get rid of this because it's going to remind me.
[00:17:15] it could be a trigger not necessarily bad to the past. before the word trigger became popular we would call it a prompt or a cue to the past. now we call them triggers.
[00:17:25] Colette Brown: Do you think it's, it's good to let go of something that has a negative memory?
[00:17:29] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: It can, but it takes me to the point that may not be up to me to get rid of, goes back to multiple decision makers, multiple users, So it might be good to get rid of it. But it's not mine to get rid of.
[00:17:41] I'm going to give you a concrete example. My wife and I have been married 38 years. So this was 40 years ago and we still talk about it. I was helping her move and I picked up, to me, I thought it was, a, a, a toothpick holder, but she called it a salt shaker, some crystal thing, junk,
[00:17:59] But to her, it was important. And did we have a fight?
[00:18:03] Colette Brown: you got rid of it.
[00:18:04] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: No, because it wasn't mine to get rid of.
[00:18:07] Colette Brown: I don't like, why do you have this? And she's saying, because I love it and you're saying, why?
[00:18:13] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: one reason we don't get rid of things is it may not be only you to decide on this.
[00:18:18] Does she
[00:18:18] Colette Brown: still have it? No.
[00:18:20] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: 40 years ago. I, if it, if we do, it's hidden, I don't want to see it.
[00:18:25] Colette Brown: it went away.
[00:18:25] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Somehow. Or it could be a potential conflict. So that's another reason. The next one I call the three lacks. Lack of time, lack of resources, and lack of ability. Let me go through each.
[00:18:38] Lack of time.
[00:18:39] one of the things people will make it as an excuse is I don't have time.
[00:18:43] Along comes COVID and you can't go anywhere and you're stuck in the house. So Roster and I contact those ICD people. We do a meeting, with these leaders. we said we want to look at during covid because we hear on the media people are going through closets and drawers what do you think they tell us no we always heard people didn't have time now they have the time and they're not coming knocking on our door saying can you help me we're not seeing a rise the media is picking up on one or two people but it's not the norm Lack of time is an excuse that people generate.
[00:19:21] I don't have the time because even when we had the time, we didn't do it. Lack of resources. People say, I'd love to declutter, but I don't know what to do with it. I don't know where to put this. when I started this, research, I would travel to Catholic parishes, give a talk called Clutter Ain't Christian, Stuff Ain't Saintly.
[00:19:42] All right? And I would talk about what does our Christian faith tell us about clutter and, and possessions. And then the last half was a decluttering coach, from the ICD group in Chicago we would give a talk and everybody came to hear her more than me.
[00:19:57] But it, it, but since we raised this topic of, of Christian Christ, for those who are Christian followers, Christ never says live like a pauper. The problem isn't abundance. The problem is attachment. The problem is we don't need to become attached to things. Don't make them the be all and the end all, is what he was saying.
[00:20:19] That's not what's important in life. It isn't about the stuff. It's about relationships. That's what we're here for. And that's what he was saying. So the lack of resources and I learned from her that people would say, I don't know what to do.
[00:20:33] And so what the decluttering coaches will tell you is don't start buying containers, big box plastic stuff and putting stuff in. That's not where you begin. You organize. Now they say you bring in one of them, but you can bring in a good friend and have that friend help you. So you see, wow, I have eight spatulas.
[00:20:54] I don't need eight spatulas. Oh, wow. I have 15 pairs of blue pants. I don't really need that. So you organize first. What the decluttering coaches will tell you is, The kitchen, the closet and books are the three big areas that people have most clutter with. All right. And so you need to think of ways to get rid of and first organize and then see how many can I live with?
[00:21:18] How much is enough That tipping point of overabundance. Can you live with eight blue pants? people will say someday I'll fit in those pants. I know I don't fit now, but I'll lose weight. Yeah, fat chance on that one, or, you know, come back in style.
[00:21:31] People will say, yeah, but that shirt from 1982, it might come back, but it's going to look like Cause they tweak it in 2024 to make it a little different. It's going to look like you're wearing something from 1982. You know, I would just like
[00:21:45] Colette Brown: to say that people that have that problem, there's so many stores, thrift stores, and vintage stores that people would love to have it.
[00:21:53] it will always go to use.
[00:21:55] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: That's right. So I was leading up to that with the resources. here's an issue I want people to be sensitive to and be aware. Be careful. I'm a supporter, Salvation Army, Goodwill, St. Vincent de Paul, Thrift Shops, all that. I'm a supporter of that.
[00:22:08] But be careful, because there are people who go to those stores and look for the vintage and buy the vintages for 2 and then put it on eBay or something for 12 or 20. They're using it as money. To me, that's not the point. I want to help the person who needs it, you know, for 2, not so that you can resell it.
[00:22:28] And you'll see people with their phone looking it up, but what's the value? No, no, no. You know, so I just be a little cautious. I also say, and we see it right now, there's hurricane disasters, tornado disasters. Can you give your stuff to somebody who needs it? One of the excuses people say is, well, my kids don't want the China.
[00:22:48] I don't know what to do with the silver. My kids don't want it either, but there's a house in the next town over that burned and they've got nothing now or tornado came through and wiped out all those people. Can I give it to them? Maybe your family can't use the China.
[00:23:04] Another family can. so lack of resources. Find these places or find directly to give it to people. Lack of ability. People will say, I don't know where to begin. I don't know how to, how to start. You know, there's so many YouTube videos and, TikTok, things showing people how to get rid of things
[00:23:24] Read those, find the ICD experts. Besides ICD, the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. Another leader on organization is NAP o.I've given a couple of informal talks locally to them, on procrastination.
[00:23:39] I don't have the strong connection with them as, as they do with ICD, but that doesn't mean they're no good. They're different. NAPO tends to NAPO really help you organize where ICD organize and declutter. You know, there's a slight little twist in terms of those things. And ICD is international.
[00:23:56] do we know what happens in the brain when we're organized? because when I'm not organized or there's clutter, I get nervous.
[00:24:07] Okay. You don't get nervous. Okay. Because you have billions in your finger alone. You get anxious. You get tense. You get worried. this is good to know because many people turn to biology and use the word I get nervous. Adrenaline is flowing.
[00:24:23] Adrenaline don't flow. Okay. Do you know that only 5 percent of mental challenges, because I don't like the word mental health and that's another reason why. All right. Only 5 percent are biological. 95 percent of who we are is what I teach my intro students, the ABCs. A for affect. Is it emotional? B for behavior or response.
[00:24:47] A, B, C, cognition, thinking. So the issue is whether it's emotional or thinking or combination or behavioral and thinking, you know, combination of all of those. Most of our psychological trauma difficulties are in those domains. Now, why not mental health? Why not mental hospital?
[00:25:08] Because notice the vocab. I have to go mental health and I can find that in a mental hospital because I have mental illness. Well, Colette, where if I cut you up, will I find this thing called mind? You're right. Nowhere. I can find a kidney, a liver, a lung, brain, brain ain't the same. There's no organ called mind.
[00:25:32] There are instead, as we say in psychology, cognitive processes,
[00:25:36] Colette Brown: not
[00:25:38] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: a product, not a thing called mind. There are ways that I think. Now what I'm saying is not new for listeners out there.You may want to read the work of Thomas Szasz. S Z A S. Z. In 1960, he was a psychiatrist.
[00:25:54] M. D. He publishes his classic book, The Myth of Mental Illness. the problem isn't an illness. It's a problem in living. We haven't taught people how to function well in life. We just assume, we just gather. And so it's so easy for people, especially today, to turn to bio.
[00:26:14] Well, that's just the way I am. I was born that way and nothing I can do about it. No, I'm a psychologist and we believe in learning. you learn to be this way so you can unlearn to be this way. Sure. you can teach old dogs, new tricks. Sure. It's going to take that dog longer and maybe a different bone, but change can always happen.
[00:26:36] Colette Brown: I like that. Change can happen.It's
[00:26:38] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: learning new skills.
[00:26:39] Colette Brown: Learning new skills.
[00:26:40] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: when Roster and I did our first study in 2016, we had 1, 600 people who reported having clutter problems.
[00:26:48] Colette Brown: Okay.
[00:26:48] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Out of the 1, 600, there were only 80 men. So I went to these experts and said, Oh, is there a gender difference? Is clutter really a female problem? They said, Oh, no. All right, so I want listeners to realize this.
[00:27:01] Men have clutter, but our culture doesn't call it clutter for men. It's their toys. It's their stuff. culture, our American culture makes women say, you've got clutter. That's fascinating to me. I'd like to see more research on that.
[00:27:18] right now we have a paper in press on e waste. What is that? Electronic waste.
[00:27:24] Colette Brown: I'm not talking about emails that come in.
[00:27:26] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: no. That's digital clutter.
[00:27:28] Colette Brown: That's digital clutter.
[00:27:28] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: E waste is old phones.
[00:27:31] Colette Brown: Oh, electronics. Yes.
[00:27:32] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Electronics. Sorry. I didn't define it.
[00:27:34] Electronic clutter. on average Americans have, three used smartphones in their homes. Old phones,
[00:27:42] Colette Brown: I think that's my data and I don't want somebody else to get my information.
[00:27:47] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: That's right. These are the excuses we make.
[00:27:49] but why don't we get rid of it? there are ways to declutter. electronic stuff to clean it. we worked, we, my students and I, in Chicago, there was a non profit that would take old desktops, wipe them clean, but load them with programs and give it to needy students.
[00:28:05] Oh wow. What I found fascinating during COVID in 2021 22, if you listened to the news so many people who don't have smartphones or don't have computers. You know, that's fascinating. Today, there's still many people who don't have these things,
[00:28:20] Repurpose. There are non profits that will clean it for you and do that, but people are still scared. Anyway, there is a gender difference. in terms of reporting, but not in terms of clutter, we've never found any difference in that.
[00:28:33] So what did we find with clutter in the home? in this study of 1600 adults, we got it down to 1400 people. Once we cleaned up the data, 94 percent were women, only 80 men. we found the more clutter, the lower the life satisfaction, more clutter, the higher the indecision, another name for decisional procrastination.
[00:28:55] That's one of the areas I look at. It's a cognitive form. I can't decide that's indecision. procrastination. We also form Behavioral procrastination. we did studies in corporate, settings and home workers, you know, office clutter. In those studies, I said, let's,not only look at what people report on how it's impacting, let's look at what is the clutter?
[00:29:15] You know, a lot of this research, and again, another area people can look at, we're asking people, do you have clutter? But what is the clutter? Well, what we found in the home and in the business office, I asked people to report the top five items you have that are cluttered. Paper was the number one, whether it was the home or the office.
[00:29:33] I'm of a generation to remember when computers were coming out, you won't need paper anymore. You'll be able to say, no, what we do now instead is print it and keep it, I have it on the computer and the hard copy. Am I right?
[00:29:45] Colette Brown: Right.
[00:29:46] it's getting better.
[00:29:46] We have e bills and electronic statements
[00:29:49] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: but then people are hacking you. I still pay on paper because I don't want the information out there, right?
[00:29:54] Colette Brown: Right.
[00:29:54] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: you gotta be safe. equipment is in the corporate one, lots of old office equipment
[00:29:59] copiers. old laptops, coffee cups and paper goods those are the types of clutter people have in their corporate, in their home, same kind of thing on only the used coffee cups and stuff move. up to number two, it's paper, trash, and office supplies. People have lots of, paper clips and clips and post notes all over the place.
[00:30:22] the clutter is interesting. we're looking at electronic waste. I haven't done much with digital waste.
[00:30:27] Colette Brown: I wanted to see, in this study, who has more clutter, upper level managers, you know, staff, employees, or the lower level. And we found the upper level, the VPs and the chiefs have more clutter than the lower level.
[00:30:39] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: That was interesting
[00:30:40] Colette Brown: in terms of e waste, I have a grad student, looking at generational differences, are boomers different than Gen Ys, Gen Zs with their clutter, you're right, the boomer might have more clutter because they've been living longer we're looking at that.
[00:30:54] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: No one has done research on the minimalist. Who are they what's about them? I'd love to know that. More indecision in the business place more poor job performance More and more emotional exhaustion, you know, we still use the word, but it's been abandoned about 20 years ago in science burnout.
[00:31:14] You really don't use the word burnout anymore. The research showed 20 years ago that it's called emotional exhaustion. That's the better term, but everybody knows burnout and it, and it makes sense, but that's really pass a word concept. and I don't know the literature, but they found burnout didn't apply best, emotional exhaustion does better.
[00:31:33] These are all things clutter will impact on their life. in an early exploratory study, we found with US sample about 300 adults, young adults, the average age of 33, 66 percent said they had old technology stored.
[00:31:48] 56 percent said it takes up space. And, but they try to have spares or backups, and 51%, about half the people are afraid that personal information goes to what you said before that would be, you know, taken from them. I had a student, she looked at fear of COVID and psychological reactants.
[00:32:08] there's a concept called psychological reactants been around in the sixties. It first grew up or first came up, emerged when smoking in buildings.
[00:32:17] Okay. What is this reactants? What do we mean from New York? We call it the, Oh yeah. When people are willing to do something, but now you mandate that they must do it. You get reactants. when people were smoking inside buildings and they first came up and said, no smoking, the actual, the rates of smoking inside the buildings increased.
[00:32:38] during Covid we saw it with masks. Yeah, I would wear a mask, but you're telling me I have to I'm not going to. The oh yeah effect. we wanted to see, you seal this media, empty out your house, declutter, did that play a role?
[00:32:52] Reactance? Oh yeah, you tell me I'm supposed to go through my closet? I'm not going to.
[00:32:57] Colette Brown: I'm ready
[00:32:57] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Yeah, I would have done it. so that was exciting.
[00:33:00] Colette Brown: interesting.
[00:33:01] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: the most recent study that Roster and I did came out last year was looking at their types of declutterers.
[00:33:06] People always like types and we found, yes, there are three kinds of decluttering people. There's first the disengaged. We looked at what are the projects people are working on as they declutter.
[00:33:18] When we found some people are disengaged. What does that mean? the project they're working on the drawer, the closet. The shelf whatever is low enjoyment and I have little control over it. So we call them disengaged so some people will declutter but they just don't like it. They don't enjoy it It's not something I don't have any control over it.
[00:33:38] Someone else is telling me to do that we have a study that we haven't published on bedroom clutter with high school students, this is low control. Mommy and daddy are telling me I got to clean up my room. Well, just for that, I'm going to keep it dirty. You know, you get some reactants and that kind of stuff.
[00:33:53] Enthusiastic. The other end of the enthusiastic declutterers. These people find decluttering enjoyable. They're absorbed by it. they enjoy organization, It leaves low stress. If I don't organize I feel stressed.
[00:34:06] Then there is the middle ground, the challenged They find the project meaningful. I know I have to do this, but I don't enjoy it and it's stressful. Uh, yet I have the time and I can control. So all declutterers are not the same There are different kinds of declutterers.
[00:34:24] So this is interesting. if you have reactants where you say to people, please pick up your trash. That was another thing. Please don't smoke. You get reaction. That's why scientists, social psychologists and industrial organizational psychologists found please don't posters are less effective than thank you for not posters.
[00:34:44] if you say thank you for not smoking, they'll say, Oh, okay, I better put it out. It's called guilt
[00:34:50] Colette Brown: thank you for wearing the mask. Thank you for not littering. Thank you for putting your trash away. Higher compliance.
[00:34:57] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: thank you is better than please place your trash here. you'll get more trash that way thank you posters and campaigns more effective than please don't.
[00:35:06] Colette Brown: That's good to know.
[00:35:07] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: That reduces reactants.All right. So the major takeaways? Look, ask yourself, who are you? All right. And use the rose, thorn and bud approach. What does that mean? Rose, what's the one thing I can declutter that allow my life to blossom, right? What's just one thing? Yup, there's always going to be thorns. Roses always have thorns.
[00:35:33] The beauty also always has the not so beautiful. You know, the good with the bad, they go together. Alright, so what is the one thing I still need to declutter? What's the thorn? And remember about the bud. Alright, sometimes we don't hear about the bud. That's the one new thing that will emerge once I declutter.
[00:35:51] think of rose, thorn, and bud, when you ask yourself to declutter.
[00:35:55] Colette Brown: I like that.
[00:35:56] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: once you've cleared space, it's opening the door for something else to come in. You close the door. You allow another one to open or two to open two buds in there.
[00:36:04] So Dr. Ferrari, you have such this vast amount of just life and wisdom and so many things to share
[00:36:13] if this was the last message that you had to broadcast out to the world and maybe a sentence or two, what would that be?
[00:36:22] Leave a legacy, make the world better because you were here. don't worry about the past. in one of my favorite plays, the man of La Mancha, Don Quixote has a quote where he says in last year's nest, there are no birds this year.
[00:36:37] they don't go back. So don't go back. The past is the past. Doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from it, you know, but move forward. So that would be my message to people.
[00:36:46] Colette Brown: That's profound. I like that.
[00:36:48] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: it's hard. You know, I go back to, I hold on to the past.
[00:36:51] thank you for having me today. I hope listeners found something worthwhile in my ramblings
[00:36:57] Colette Brown: I appreciate it and would absolutely love to have you on so we could explore some other topics.
[00:37:03] this is so important to, to when we're looking at our overall health, what ways can we tweak and get better? Look forward to new things, new research, new opportunities, possibilities, rosebuds, whatever it is that we can progress and we can make a difference in our lives and those we love and our children.
[00:37:23] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: The world and those around us. Absolutely. The
[00:37:25] Colette Brown: world. Yeah. Yeah. So I appreciate all the work that you've done and continue to do, and your encouragement to others to do the research, it's very meaningful to me. thank you so much for all you do.
[00:37:36] Dn. Joseph R. Ferrari, Ph.D.: Thank you for finding me.
[00:37:37] I will hope we are making a difference in someone's lives. If someone's just going to be a little happier today in my role as a deacon, psychologist, I've done good. That's what it's all about. Live long and prosper. I look forward to, Feedback from people.
[00:37:50] Colette Brown: Thank you. And everyone else until next time be well.
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