Zero Dollars is No Money

deep dive into a more nostalgic cultural object. But today we're you know, talking about what's going on at the moment, because this is like a virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture, and I do mean the pop culture from literally yesterday today's takes. I'm Rose, damn you, and I'm fran Toronto. How are you doing? Would you do this weekend? Um? Well, the weekend was great. I just like kind of spent the weekend indoors. I had

people over for brunch. We watched ever After, I had people, well, I watched ever After recently too. Did you have fun? It was? It was great? Angelica Huston it's Oh. I thought I thought that she was one of those girls that like she's like, no, it's huston, okay, thank you? Um should we do and have our after episode? I don't maybe a Drew, a Drew Barrymore episode. I honestly think it's a Drew. It's a Drew episode for sure,

because ever after it's amazing. But to me, it would have to be a larger discussion about like Cinderella adapt weights or something. You know what would be good though, is a fairy Dale adaptation episode? Yes, because I think there's a lot because then we could do like into the Woods, we could do like I don't know, I think that opens up a lot of things. Actually, even just Cinderella adaptations gives us like Brandy gives us the Cape Blanchet, Cinderella give Okay, well we're gonna work. Well

we'll we'll chop it, we'll ChRI it. But anyways, ever after it was great. Angelica Houston was I mean, she was the whole movie. She I forgot how could anyone love a pebble in their shoe? Or when she was like, do not contribute to the silence unless you can improve it, I was like damn amazing actress. I think I really forgot how clever the whole movie is, how good the dialogue is. Um, how Drew really wear some ugly, ugly

dresses in that movie? Also some gorgeous dresses. My favorite lasters is My favorite look of hers is when she goes to meet him in the abandoned castle and she's wearing like a like a red velvet number. I did not like all of her dress, says except for the last one. We will agree to degree. Yeah, I was. I was isolated. People disagreed with me. That people that I was viewing with also disagreed with me. But I was just so maybe that means you have bad taste.

You know, I actually have great taste. As I've said on the podcast, I've always had a great taste with some with some exceptions. But I was going to tell you just a few So Rose, what have you been like listening to consuming this weekend? Like? Have you just were you? I saw you were in Malibu? Question mark? Yes, Um, I went to the beach yesterday. We went to zooma beach and Malibu. You know, I'm like not really a beach girl. I'm a pool girl like you know, being

from Florida. Um, but it was perfect beach day. We drove up there in the morning, We're there for a couple of hours and then like left by three pm, which is, you know, perfect for me. I cannot I cannot go to the beach with people who want to be there literally all day. Yeah, I know, but you are you are a Caucasian and you do need allies

in that in that situation. But you know, we had we had a an umbrella, so I was able to be in the shade um an umbrella ella an umbrella la la a a. But I did get some son, do you have more freckles? Now? I do have a lot more freckles. But I also did use some of my weekend to catch up on some you know, cultural things. The big thing is f Y Island ended, and the twists were twisting. The twists were twisting, so spoilers for

anyone watching. But f Boy Island ended, and the final twist was that Nikki Glazer revealed to the girls that instead of just either choosing a nice guy and getting to split the money with him, or choosing an f boy and the f boy having the ability to either split the money or take all of it. There was a third option where the women could choose themselves and keep all of them money, which I was gagged. I was screaming, shooting and hollering at a really good twist.

I was hoping that they were all going to do it. That's the thing that was. Like, I mean, obviously it's reality TV that's been produced to the instagrae like This Girl is scripted during some parts, But like I I just don't understand anybody that would not choose a hundred thousand dollars, like even after taxes, that so much money, Like, come on us, after taxes is considerably less money, and zero dollars is no money. There's no money. Um so my I've already sent you a voice memo with all

of my takes. But like, I think it's infuriating that Ms Mercedes did not take the hundred thousand dollars in dash. That would have been way more satisfying. It would have been up to our predictions. He is such a piece of ship and they're clearly not even going to last very long, so like why even a week? It's a charade, like Mercedes is putting on a charade of being a

nice guy, and I hate him. I feel like he realized how bad he looked over over the course of the show and wanted to try to rehabilitate his image at the end. That's the worst part if you are on a reality TV show, Do not do not self analyze, do not self perceive, Like it just makes the whole thing worse. Like no self awareness, you should be a

black mirror upon which, um, you know. I wished Louise was my favorite character from beginning to end, and I was kind of thinking she was going to turn out to be the f girl who took the money, but spoiler alert, it was Tamaris was the only one who picked herself and revealed herself to be an F girl,

and I honestly, the clues were there all season. Obviously kind of showed she had said many times that she cheated before, she'd lied, before she was a player, that she dumps guys with no emotion like, so I was like, you know, good for her, and I kind of I loved actually the moment where they showed the guy crying and then as soon as he left, she was like, can I get makeup in here? That was so fucking funny because it was like the immediate switch, um from

the I mean Tommy Boy, Poor Tommy Boy. Um the like FARTI trombone sounds that put underneath him. Tommy Boy will be fine. But another another incredible season of reality television. Truly, are you a Louise Tamaris or where are we both? To Maris's I'm definitely Tamaris. I think you're more of a Louise. Am I more of Louise Louise. The thing is, I will say at the I I really do cut and run like you're an f girl. I'm not saying you're not a girl, but you also are legitimately Louise.

You are looking for love. Also on a trio Max, Harley Quinn came back. You know, friend and I have talked before about how Harley Quinn was one of our favorite shows of last year. It's back in its third season the Pandemic find. Yeah, we have both only watched the first episode, I think. Um. We talked about how we're both kind of saving it for like a Saturday morning cartoon SNAr um, So I just haven't gotten around to watching more of it. But in the first episode

is great. It was Harley and Poison Ivy are together. Now they're on like they're going on like an international honeymoon funck fest. It's beautiful. It's the show remains so funny.

I laugh out loud all the time it's starting, and it's starting with a kind of more emotional honest, the emotionally honest kind of plot points of like what's not going right in their relationship, the little clues about where their disconnects are, where their miscommunications are, which, like I kind of wish it would start with like the fun stuff, but like you know, the show is very layered, and I really I'm excited to see where it goes. Yeah, I can't wait. I have to go in a little

rant about another HBO show that is not good? Um, do you watch Westworld? Have you ever watched Westworld? No? I probably you know, as I always say, the next time I have the flu, I will definitely watch the first season, but just the first season. I would never watch more than watch only the first season, because the first season of Westworld was great, It was amazing. Even the second season of West World was had moments of brilliance and was otherwise, like the third season of rest

World was rotted. Should have never happened. The fourth season, which is airing now, lured me back in somehow, making me think it would be good again. People were talking about it, and just every week has gotten worse and worse, and I feel like I'm losing my mind triasically. It's

basically just like the Matrix now. And the thing that I wanted to bring up is like, obviously I don't want to talk about like the particulars of the show, like it's very it's all very hetty and stupid, and like it's it's it's exactly as yes, it is exactly as dumb as it thinks it's smart, which is infuriating. But one of the things I've noticed is that, especially this season, there is so much suicide depicted on the show.

Like the robots are constantly killing themselves. Um, you know, death doesn't death doesn't mean the same thing on the show because people are robots that can be brought back, but also the human characters are killing themselves, and it's at a point where it has become almost like fetishistic,

the way that people are constantly killing themselves. And it's just something about it to me, and I'm not usually like the morality Police with with media, Like I'm like, go off, I want to see funked up should happen. But it's just it's just really weird and it actually is making me on comfortable what you yeah, because it's just so indulgent, like it doesn't really it's like for the sake of it, there's no asition to the violence.

Yeah there. It really feels like there could have been a better storytelling choice to get kind of the same point across. That's such a bummer. I mean, I honestly getting sucked into a show is the worst. And I really appreciate when people are like just watched the first season because that's the only thing I would do with West World. Honestly, That's what I'm doing with Damages right now, which like I can't discuss well like well for another podcast,

Like it's just the reason you need. The main reason I'm still watching West World is like a I do still kind of want to know how it how it ends, and I'm sure it will get canceled after this season. There's no way with all the HBO stuff happening, like with the business things, that this show, which like literally

four people are watching, will get renewed. But Also another reason why I watch it is because who weekly do recaps on their on their weekly Patreon episodes and they're really funny, and so I literally watched the episodes just so I have the context to listen to that fun at least, Yes, but funck Westworld. Um So, I have a movie recommendation for you that I really think you should watch. Um so we can discuss a little bit more at length in the future. There's this new movie

out called Not Okay. It's on Hulu. It's stars Zoe Deutsch, who's like just one of those girlies, one of the girls. Yeah,

you know, she's I think she's an nepotism baby. And it's about this like a loser photo editor who works at sort of like a vice magazine analog and she really wants to be a writer, and like everyone in her office hates her in sort of a way that's almost like a caricature, Like they're like, you're a fucking loser, even though she's like hot and like is like almost like disgustingly on trend, like she has those like streaks that every girl had less year, the chunky rings, and

you know, like so she decides that to seem cool. She's going to fake going on a trip to Paris to a writer's workshop, and while she's supposed to be in Paris, a terrorist attack happens there, so everyone in her life thinks that she was part of the attack, and all of a sudden, she starts getting attention for it, and she realizes that she can use her victimhood as a way to become an influencer, and in doing so, she meets this young high school girl who is a

school shooting survivor and becomes friends with her. And it obviously gets very messy and dramatic, but it's really funny. It's really smartly written. I think it has some very

interesting things to say about influence our culture. I don't think it's a perfect movie by any means, but what I loved is that she, the protagonist, is a horrible person, and she is it does the movie does have some maybe not sympathy, but empathy for her, and she does not, you know, get any sort of like Redemption arc Um. But it was a really good movie. Um. I think it's a first time filmmaker who wrote and directed it very excited to see what she does next. And I

think you would really enjoy it. I'm honestly surprised that that you liked it, because I feel like it's so hard, especially for consumers like us, to to make a good movie that is also a commentary on social media and or influencers. Like that stuff gets really cringe really fast. Like I did not really like Ingrid Goes West all that much, Like I've never seen it. You you know,

that has a lot of really redeeming elements to it. Um. I think that, like, you know, more often than not, the people writing about social media or writing about you know, influence or culture whatever that means, are either people that are do not participate in it, and so they're creating these weird caricatures that are like not funny, or they're two inside of it and they think it's way more

interesting than it actually is. And I think that, you know, this kind of stuff is like best when it's the punchline, right, And I think this is a really good segue to Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. I don't know if you you watched that, right, Yeah, I saw an early screening of it in June. I finally saw it last week, and I felt, what did

you think? Well, you know, I felt like the commentary on just like us as you know, gen Z millennial kind of like influencer types were at times the movie's strongest points and also some of the biggest joke flops. And obviously Rachel Senate was the moment for that, and she she was kind of the movie for me, was the movie. I actually don't think the movie would have worked without her. I totally agree. I thought every I loved everything about the movie. I thought it was actually

really thrilling. I thought the twist at the end was somehow I didn't I didn't even I mean like it felt very obvious towards the end, but like at the same time, I didn't predict it, did not see it coming, did not see it coming, and um, but the I think the reason I get to that is like, despite the fact that Rachel, I mean, Rachel was the best I think, the most fun to watch on screen, but all the other performances obviously great, But like Rachel's character

specifically is like a kind of meta commentary on a very specific person you'll meet at a party or at a on a group vacation. Like I felt like I knew her. I felt like I knew a lot of the characters, um, and I felt felt like some of the kind of you know jokes that make fun of girls like her were very funny, and then some of them were two on the nose. I also watched, speaking of slashers, I finally watched that They Slash Them movie?

Have you have you heard it? For the Virgins? If you don't know, there's this Peacock original that you know. The title is they Them, but it's supposed to be pronounced they slash them, or as Thomas Muster said it should speaking. I was at the at the screening with Thomas Patos and they pronounced it they slash them, and which I think is much better. Um. Here's the thing again, when movies really want to go in on like making commentary about something, sometimes they forget to be a good movie.

And I think, you know, to compare something like Bodies, Bodies Bodies, which is extremely queer, to something like They Slash Them, which is also extremely queer, but like also very very trans like it's a much more trans story. Um, I think that you know, they Slash Them suffered under the weight of the things that was trying to say about gender discrimination justice. Um, but ultimately, you know, had some thrills, had some chills, was not really scary unfortunately,

but um good jokes are really great. Um singing montage moment that I won't spoil. Do you think I should watch it? Would I like it? I think that if it happens to be something that you're watching with people or if you have absolutely nothing to do, it is something that you would have a lot of thoughts on. Actually, and THEO Germaine, the lead, who's a friend of mine, is so hot and his THEO is really hot, so hot, and his scene partner is Kevin Bacon pretty much the

whole movie. And I heard that the movie was originally supposed to be more specifically about gay conversion therapy, and then they were like, no, no, no, two, we got to make a trans So is the trans stuff done well? Like is it interesting? Does it like add to what the movie is trying to say? And like the horror

of it, it adds and it also detracts. And this is I'm really glad you asked that question because it's kind of crystallizing everything that we're talking about, Like you telling me that that like they made they were decided to make it more trans is abundantly obvious to me. It is very clearly. I think the trans issues in the in the movie are really wedged in, and there are moments of discrimination against trans people that are inconsistent.

So Kevin Bacon is really transphobic to one trans character and then not transphobic to this other trans character, and the logic of that doesn't really make sense. And then also the experiences of gay and lesbian people on the at the camp and trans people at the camp are kind of conflated, and there's no nuance in discussing how those kinds of oppressions are different, and yet it's trying

to say something about it. So like for me, it's like, either you need to clarify what you're trying to say, or just like don't even go into it, Like we can just figure it out and you don't have to really give us this ham fisted like commentary on trans

identity spoiler alert. At the end, when we find out who the murderer is, there's this moment where you're kind of like the murderer is kind of like on the side of the queer people, and you're like, oh, this murderer is dope, and like is like doing great things for people, but then the cops come and arrest them, and I was like this, how could this be like a queer movie? And yet the climax is resolved with cops, Like that's I know, that's like how all slashers end.

But like you couldnot like fabricate any sort of other cinematic invention that would give us a resolution that does not involve cops, Like, it's just a failure of the imagination to me, um for that to be the ending. Another movie I kind of frayed into this weekend was good luck to you, Leo Grant. Have you have you watched this or heard about it at all. I've heard the premise of it, which is it's it's about like an older woman who's never come and hires a sex worker.

That's literally the log line. And it's and it's like a COVID movie. So it's just like the two of them in a hotel room the whole time, exactly, And and that is hard. You know, that's a very specific movie to watch. It's like one set. It's basically a play.

I'm not gonna lie and that's fine. Um. Emma Thompson does incredible incredible work, like she actually an interview has described that, like the nudity scene that she does, and it is the hardest thing she's ever had to do as an actress, which is saying something because Emma Tompson, because let's talk about let's talk about her listening to Joni Mitchell and love actually, oh my god, the performance

of a life. Um, But it was really what was really fascinating is I've been really excited about this movie. I'd heard a lot of things, a lot of really good things about it, and the movie did not really deliver to me on a lot of what it was trying to say about sex workers, because it was really

really trying to say something about sex workers. And what was very interesting to me was that I watched it the day after I rewatched Pretty Woman with a bunch of my friends, one of my favorite movies, one of the greatest movies ever written, and yet one of the most offensive depictions of like sex work like we've ever seen, but also that it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, and also, like you have to think it was the late eighties and just the fact that that movie was made where

the main character was a sex worker and like gets a happy ending, and it's just I think it's a pretty radical movie for its time, and it is one of my favorite movies. And the first time I ever did, I mean, you know, quote unquote drag publicly was on Halloween. I was Julia robertson Pretty Woman my freshm my freshman year of college. You have the wigs, you have that

bob nasty? Is that nasty bob? They made her wear that bob for so long, like way more of the movie than she needed to wear that bob, and like you forget, like the sex scenes in that movie are actually so The scene on the reno, oh my god, on the piano is so sexy, so well blocked, so well written. Yeah, it's a great movie. Actually, I truly think this. We need to do a Julia Roberts episode. We absolutely do. We'll bring Caleb here and specifically Julia

Roberts rom com Queen Earra like nodding Hill. I've never seen Pretty Woman, my best friend's wedding runaway Bride. I've never seen Mr Pizza. I've never seen Mr Pizza either, So, Virgins, if you would like a Julia Roberts episode, let us know um in the comments. Yeah, and to put a pin on like kind of this the pretty woman of

it all. It's like, it's so funny, it's an amazing movie, and yet like the conceit of the movie is like a billionaire treats a woman basically like a like a into puppy kind of like you know, weekend toy thing a week a week only three grant for a week air all the money and even with inflation, it still makes no sense, like financial, it makes no financial And you know the movie was originally called three thousand. That's

so fucking stupid. I hate that. Um. Anyways, Richard Gere, who is so sexy and it's the only movie where he's sexy, he you know, treats her like says really offensive things to her face frequently, like is honestly a scum of a human being, and like also has like an entire body of work and life that is like gouging people and like like tricking people, which like you know, he gets his little redemption arc at the end, but he becomes class conscious, right, he becomes class conscious whatever.

But I just thought it was so funny that we can have this really kind of like this depiction of a sex worker where the sex worker kind of has a superhuman ability to deal with their clients bullshit because they're just grateful, and that that was unfortunately replicated in this Emma Thompson movie Um. Emma Thompson plays a really erratic, uh dysfunctional woman who is so she is really really bad at boundaries with the with um Darryl McCormick. So I gotta give it out to Darryl McCormick, who was

so amazing this movie. They both were so good. But like Emma Thompson plays, plays this woman who just repeatedly treats him like an object and treats him like ship and asks him really offensive questions and says really insulting things to his face and he has to just kind of deal with it through the whole movie like he does. But does the like does the lens of the film show that that stuff is bad? Yes, And that's kind

of the difference. Well, to some extent, the difference is that, like and Pretty Woman, they never tell you why any of this is like not how to treat a sex worker.

Right in Um Good Luck to You, Leo Grand the movie is trying to demonstrate what to not do with sex workers, and also um just has there's a very long p s A in the middle about um just like why sex worker is ballad and should be like a public service and all this different stuff, Like it has a lot to say about the validity of sex work, which is like, fine, if that's what you're trying to do with the movie. I don't really enjoy like pedantic

moments like that. I think it creates limitations around what can be a really good story. But it's still had. I think it checked all the right boxes of what it was trying to say. It's just the um I want a story about sex work where we don't have this transformative like look at this upstanding hooker and how like you know, well behaved they are now, and how

like nice and saint like they are. It's like, actually, like sex workers don't have to be saints, and they don't have to be these like like healing like fixers that come in and like make you better and they

have like nothing better to do with their lives. Like I felt with both movies they were very disinterested in like the inner life of the sex worker, though it's much more explored in the Emma Thompson movie because the acting is so good, but it's just like, you know, yes, like sex workers have to do tons of emotional labor. A lot of sex workers have to be therapists for their clients sometimes, but just like I want their life too,

you know. Yeah, I do think that we have almost never had a truly good depiction of sex work in a piece of mainstream media. And they're both The thing is, they're both great movies. Like, Okay, here's the thing. Pretty Woman at the end of the day is a male fantasy marketed to women, right, Like it is a I get to rent a woman for because I'm a billionaire,

and I take our around on my day. It's in my nice car, and she's so obsessed with me, and I get to buy all these nice clothes and like whatever and like but at the end of the day, like she chooses me and because like you know, because I fixed her, like she it's a it's a Cinderella story.

Like it's not it's a rare rom com where I don't think it's like it's not kind of aspirational in a way because I think the women who it's being marketed to at the time or not being like, oh, I want to grow up and be a prostitute, and like how this happened to me, which is like pumped up because like you know, like being sex work is not something that you know, should have stigma around it. Yeah, I'm not going to watch that movie. Yeah yeah, I

don't think I don't think you would like it. Um. It's really slow and it's very just like dialogue the whole time. That's it. Speaking of movies, I don't think you would like I finally watched the Netflix Persuasion adaptation. Oh, which girls are mad about this. The girls are really mad about it. I honestly, I don't think it's okay. Here's the thing it maybe if I had finished the book, I would feel differently. I started the book um when we were when we were on vacation, I was um

and just kind of dropped it. I got a little bored. And maybe if I had read the book and like the story was important to me, Um, I would have hated it because even just from what I read, it's very different. Um. But I you know, like I enjoyed myself.

I I had it on while I was taking a bath, and it was like very It's like you know, it's like a cozy, romantic period piece and like, yes, it's it's trying to be fleabag so hard and it's literally like have you ever bought anything from from Reformation or like gotten their emails their emails that you know their emails are like your ex boyfriend called or like, um, I've seen enough. I've seen enough Hunter Harris tweets to know that I cannot let myself be ensnared by a refreation.

Like it's like if the person who wrote the copy for those Reformation emails wrote an adaptation of Treason, that's that's this one. Um. So it's it's stupid and bad, and I still enjoyed myself and Dakota Johnson. Dakota Johnson like shouldn't have been in it, but like was great because she's Dacote Johnson. She has zero chemistry with the with the lead, even though he's super sexy. Um, there's no kind of like outstanding side characters, which is what

you want in a Jane Austin adaptation. And it's it's not good, but I don't think it's quite as evil and like you know, like bad for the culture as everyone is making it out to be. I've heard that the fandom is very pissed about this adaptation. Why why are why are Jane Austen stands mad because of the sort of like flea bagification of Persuasion, Like it has contemporary dialogue, right, it has, it has contemporary dialogue and sensibility. There's but I think that's honestly the the part that

everyone's getting caught up on and is not the real problem. Like, so, Persuasion is the story of a woman who was supposed to marry a m a naval officer when she was young, but her family persuaded her not to because he had no money, and so she has regretted it ever since. And eight years later he comes back into her life and he has like risen in the ranks and has money.

Now she's still a spinster. And it's the last book Jane Austin completed before her death, and it's very sort of like melancholic, and it's about a much different kind of love than you see in her earlier works. It's about a mature love. It's like a bit sadder and and Elliott, in what I read of the book is

like a very you know, like introspective character. She's very quiet, and Dakota Johnson in the movie is like it is like speaks directly to the camera and says things like we were worse than friends were x is, and like there's little jokes like she she's like opening a box of letters from Wentworth and she's like he made me a playlist and it's like literally like a bunch of

sheet music tied together. So it's stuff like that that people are like making a big deal out of when actually the real problem is that the an Elliott of the film is just not the same character as in the book and like does a lot of things that

the an Elliott in the book would never do. The reason that they're brought together back in the book is like the the like mishaps and like conventions of the genre that put them back together that Jane Austen was so good at and not that like you know, and Ellie it was this like manic pixie dream girl, um, you know. And also it's like the movie is not pretty.

The costumes are not lush. It's not that it's giving budget, it's giving like they try to make it look contemporary, Like it wears a lot of like button down shirts over a long dress and it's like, no, give me sense and sensibility like glamour. That's their family. Their family has to move from the country to Bath because they're poor.

And someone says, like I've heard that if you're a ten in London, you're a five in Bath and like things like that are like stupid, but they're just they're distracting from the problem with it, which is that I think this movie just fundamentally doesn't understand what is beloved about its source material and like the kind of love it's trying to portray. But that being said, I I am always looking for that sort of printing period peace

like cozy Day movie. And it still is that despite not being perfect, So you know, watch it for yourself, like make up your own mind. It's not the evil, evil thing that people are making it out to be. Okay, great, even though you didn't finish Persuasion, whether any other goodness. He's got into this weekend. Yeah, I'm reading two books right now. Um. One I started earlier in the summer and just got back into yesterday when I was at the beach. It's called book Lovers by Emily Henry, who's

like a huge romance author. Um it's her latest book. It's a It's a book about a literary agent and a literary editor who find themselves in the same small town and I suppose are going to have a romance. And it's really good. Um so far. It just it just took me a while to get into it because

I wasn't really that interested. But the other book that I'm reading that I'm very excited about and I'm trying to pace myself on because I don't want to get through too quickly is Husband's Material by Alexis Hall, who is like kind of one of my instant by authors. Like anything. They I've talked about a couple of their books this year already. Um. They this is a sequel to their book Boyfriend Material, which is Boyfriend Material was very much like a gay send up of like Bridget

Jones Diary. Okay, I'm googling right now. Oh, you absolutely need to read it. It's super funny. Um. I also I listened to the audiobook of it the second time. The cover is in mely promising. Yeah, when you see a cover like this, it's it's a by hunt, It's it's about it's about this guy who's like sort of like, um, he's a he's the child of some celebrities, and like it's kind of always winding up in the tabloids and he has to have a fake boyfriend to like rehabilitate

his image. But obviously him and the and the boyfriend like actually fall in love and wind up together. And so in the sequel, everyone around them is getting married, and so I think they might get I would assume that, since it's called husband material, they get married. It looks it looks very British. It is very British, and like the British isms are a big part of the humor and what I like about it, And yeah, it's really

good in Alexis Hall. The books of theirs that I've talked about this year were, Um, A Lady for a Duke, Yeah, which was which is a historical romance with a trans lead, and you like them. I did really like it. I didn't think it was perfect, um, but I liked it.

And it kind of goes back to what we were talking about with them with they slash them, which is that even though Alexis Hall has said that they wanted to write a book about a trans character, where like their Transnis was not the main thing with the plot.

I don't think that's true of the work that they actually wrote, and but but to its like, I mean that in a positive way, because I want to see more stories where people's queerness and like more specifically, their trans nous are the plot couldn't happen without them, because those are the interesting stories that we haven't seen yet, the new stories that we should be telling. I think

that's really interesting. Yeah, I agree, I mean that's the thing is like this this tension between like do I tell people how I really feel about a certain issue or do I just tell a good story? Or like do I have to pick? And like when do I? How do? How do I do both? It's like it's about the issue I think, like I think identity, and and like there's so much inherent in transness that can create a really interesting narrative. Like in In a Lady for a Duke, the whole plot of the story is

that this trans woman has this best friend. They went to war together, she was injured in action and presumed dead, and she used that as as her chance to transition and like go away for a couple of years. I remember this very Alexis Mead allah ugly and come back as a woman, and like, that's what I mean when I say it's a plot point that could not happen

without transness, and it's what creates the whole narrative. And that is really interesting that that story wouldn't exist if it wasn't for her identity, and so that is I'm interested in seeing more queer stories like that and in creating um but you know more, Stay tuned. But a boy from Material definitely recommend Book Lovers is good. I mean, I'm sure like everyone's reading it, because like everyone reads Emily Henry's books anyway, So I'm not telling anyone anything

they don't know. And I do now that I've watched the movie, I do want to finish Persuasion. I'll get around to it eventually. Honestly. Something that's kind of giving a little like kind of persuasion made well um Girl aesthetic is the new Maggie Rogers album, which for some reason drop the same day as Beyonce's I don't know. Well, here's the thing I know that they have as a music artists. They have nothing to do with each other. Their music has no overlap. I get it. I just

like that can't be like, why would you? I would never in a million years drop something that weekend, especially if one of your songs is called honey. Oh well, what did you did you listen to thee? Yeah? Can I admit something to you. I don't love it. I'm kind of having I'm kind of having a hard time with it. And at first I thought it was just that every time I put it on, I found myself thinking I could just be listening to Beyonce right now,

and that was the initial problem with it. And the few times that I did listen to it, it was always background music while I was writing, or background music while I was reading or whatever. And then I said, no, no, no, no, I need to sit down and actually listen to it with headphones on and really give this album it's chance. And it made me realize that I wasn't reaching for

it because I don't love it. I don't. It's very hard to you know, I think with a sophomore album when your first album was received, um, you know so like so Universe, the Universe slee Positive, Um, that's really hard to follow up. I just, um, I don't I like some of it. I like a lot of the singles that she released I think are good, but it's just like not a lot of the songs are really kind of grading, and I know that that's a big

part of what she does. I was I was listening to something, oh and a recent episode of Lost Cultures does they were talking about her and how you know, she originally started off as a folk artist and then like once she moved to New York for school, like that's when she started like hearing a lot of club music and like got really into production and that's why her music kind of is the way that it is now.

And I liked a lot of what she did with that on her last album, But on this album, I think it's just too it's overproduced and it's really I never would have thought about that. Yeah, it's a lot of like pots and pants happening, and it's just, um, it's challenging to listen to, but not in a way that makes me want to kind of rise to the occasion. It's challenging to listen to in a way where I find myself just like I can only make it through like half a song and then I skipped to the

next one. I just don't really I'm not enjoying it, and that's sad because I love her and her last album I was obsessed with and still am. I listened to it all the time. I have a slightly different relationship to Maggie Rogers, but a lot of similar experiences of this new album because I so I did not, you know, I was. I love Maggie, I love her art.

I'm not like a Maggie stand per se. I did not listen to her first album over and over again the way I know a lot of Maggie Rogers heads do, Like you know, Joel Can Boosters listening right now, like screaming at us being so mad that we're um, you know,

making critique of his queen. But like, but like she, I I think that thing about you know, heard it in a past life her last album is that it did have a lot more pop orientation, and these songs have really amazing hooks, and because Surrender doesn't have, it's much more introspective and much more thoughtful. It doesn't have the hooks that her last album had, and therefore for

me was background music. And I think really great background music, like music still has that function and like that sounds like an insult, but like, I think it's really gorgeous, but it doesn't even work from it doesn't even work for me is background music because it becomes distracting and I'm like, I don't want to skip. Well, listen to the song. For me, the song that goes hardest. Shatter is the best song. I love Shatter. I love how

Maggie screams on it. I think it's so cathartic and beautiful and one of my favorite songs she's ever written or done. Um, But I just like I thought it was you know, I've consumed the kind of the media, uh, you know, stuff around her enrollment in the Harvard Divinity School and how her Coachella performance was a project for her Harvard Divinity School, her Harvard Divinity School, like thesis

or whatever. And I was like, like she says in this interview that Coachella, like her Coacheller performance fulfilled a requirement on public presonation. She literally filed this performance as a part of her the completion of her school. That's really that's really cool that I don't see. I mean, okay, cool, yes, But also just like I just feel like school is like for you, Like it's for your education, not for like entertainment value, like when I'm in school, I'm actually

maybe I'm being a little too hard on her. I just feel like I to be that experimental and to be so I don't know, I just like don't want I just don't want to read your thesis. That's the thing. That's what I'm being like kind of an asshole about it, because like I at the end of the day don't want to read all everything behind it. I just want to know if it's a good album or not, and if every and honestly, maybe I'm projecting because this is

something I'm extremely guilty of. I will do tons of research, tons of background work, have huge like stories and rationale behind projects that I put out or things that I do, and like all of that is worth nothing at the end of the day if people don't get it, you know what I mean, And it doesn't matter how many degrees you have or how much um intellect or pedagogy you've put into the thing, if it's at the end of the day, not something that's good for consumption, even

something that's experimental and fun to consume. Like I don't know, it's then to me just a project and surrender feels like a project, not an album, and I'm okay with that, Like I want to see Maggie explore, and so I'm

excited to see what else she does. And she does not need to be the artist she was on Harden Past Life Forever, but that is the art that I would like from her, and I hope maybe with her next project she finds her way a little, a little further back, not territory, because for the moment, I'm just I'm still only listening for Nissance Rose. Other things that we listened to this weekend the Queen's remix of Break

My Soul Girl. I was gagged when when I was sent that link before, like before it came out on Spotify and then sent it to you, I was like, is this a Joe? It felt not real. And then I listened to it. I think it's so good. I think it's great. I think it's so good. I like that it's you know, the cultural context of Madonna's Vogue is that, like, as much as we love it and as much as it you know, brought vogue to the

forefront of mainstream culture, it is also extremely appropriative. As you know, Madonna has been throughout her career, and I do like that in reworking and sampling the song, and you know, on a project where she's doing so much

sampling and you know, reinterpretating of Vogue and House. I like that Beyonce places ballroom culture back in its original context while using the very thing that was I don't want to say weaponized against it, but like the very thing that kind of helped break it from that in

the first place. Um And the way she does that is through like I think most specifically at the end, when she's doing what Madonna did the original song and like naming all these legends, like and when Madonna did it, she was like naming all these white women who were on the cover of Vogue. When Beyonce does it, she's naming all these black female artists and literal Vogue houses like and some of them were deep cuts to Like when she mentioned House of Ladosia, I was gaming. I

was gagged. I was gagged for people that don't know House of Ladosia is. And they're like an iconic underground New York house, very much a part of the Westgate scene the early years of bush Wig. It's Julianna Hustable, it's Joanna Huxtable collective predominantly, So it's like very it's

just different. It's so it's such Julianna Hugstable, Michael Magnan, Dosha Bailey styles, Neon Christina like true underground New York legends, very much involved in like Spectrum used to throw a lot of really cool parties and so to hear them placed in that context with other legendary houses like House of Extravaganza, House of Aubiance. Also my like my girl Nita Auvance, who's one half of the Carrie Nation, did one of the break My Soul remixes that Beyonce put out.

It's just like the best remix. It's so it's so incredible to see Babarin culture at large be celebrated in this way by the biggest artists in the world, in a way that is actually like honoring the reality of what it is rather than you know, like appropriating it's it's style or sound um and doing something entirely different

with it. It's it's as we said in our our Beyonce episode last week, like she's citing her sources and and even more than that, she is like she's trying as in any way she can to give the girls their flowers. You said it all like I I, and I honestly didn't even think about it in that way, and then thinking about it as a full circle moment to kind of rectify the ways that Madonna's Vogue was extremely exploitative. Right, Like Madonna did a lot for a

ballroom culture. Um our friend of the pod, like mikel Street has like a lot of work and reporting on this if you ever want to check out his stuff, But like he um, there's nuance in all of it, right, Like Madonna was appropriative and exploitative and like stole culture from the most marginalized in the New York scene. But at the same time, she brought the House of Ninja and other dancers with her on tour. Right she put

them in the music video. Right, she got an entire you know, group of people listening to Vogue to say, what's Vogue, what's vogueing, what's ballroom? And that is you know big, that's huge, right, Um for Beyonce to put it explicitly in context, I think you said it perfectly, Like that's so amazing. And also in addition to ladosha um a kiki house like House of tell Far a very new house, a house that's like fresh on the scene,

like again another really deep cut. And the list of names where it's just like a list of powerful black women. And she says Grace Jones twice, like Grace, Grace Jones, Grace Jones. Um, she should have said. I mean, maybe this is like totally totally fan service, wishful thinking, but like I feel like Calice should have been in the

list of names. Yeah, I don't think that's going to happen, but if she removed, I mean, it's just me being a fan fan, but like, come on, that would have been so iconic because Calice is in that list, you know what I mean? She is she is, you know, she's I've been listening to so much Calie, to this Beyonce stuff is happening. All just made me Acapella is it's all of the millennium, um, and that's one good thing to come of all this is thought. It reminded me how much I love Chalice and I hope that

my streams are making her money. Similarly, I've been revisiting Chalice, but I also have been revisiting Donna Summers Bad Girls, which I don't think I've given a through listened through since like college, and like the transitions I mean Beyonce, I think that's like one of the strongest influences for renaissances, Like the transitions on Bad Girls are sublime, like they are so next level, and um I I honestly it gave me a whole new appreciation for the album as

a whole, as one of the greatest dance albums to have ever been released, and I um I honestly, it just made me crave like real disco music right like you know in You and I saw tons of like disco inspired music, right do I release the album Chromatica was supposed to be disco influenced. I thought it was just a kylie um see where, which is like an amazing album, But like Honey Again, it's more than disco yeah,

and it's like it's for me. It's like, no, I want like if you're going to do a disco album, And this is part of why I love A lot of the songs are renaissance, Like if you're gonna do a disco album, I want a farty ass base, I want a gospel choir, I want some clapping sounds like I want like the things that make disco disco, Like I want full wind and trumpet ensemble, right, okay, Like and I feel like, you know, when we get I want native new Yorker, yes, native New Yorker, and when

I get reformed Williams, and like when I get the dual leap of stuff, which is like fine, it's just like that, it's not disco. It's not disco. It's not even really house. I think if anyone like Kylie is maybe the girl who really was giving up has always given us true disco but like the disco inspired ship. It's like I think Renaissance is what I was waiting for, you know, and the diet. I don't think Renaissance is

even disco, Like ren Renaissance is house. Yeah, I think that there are three songs that are pretty pretty like pretty disco funk disco. Um, but I agree, it's like I wanted the full fantasy, the bad girl's fantasy. So um wait. So we got a d m at like a virgine and that said one of our theories from last week, and this person does not want us to blow out their spots, so we will keep them anonymous. But they said that one of our theories is true and that the next two projects are a country album

and an R and B album. So crowded for that country album and do you think they're gonna do you think she's going to tap the Chicks again? But the other rumors that it's going to be maybe don R and B album, but a rock album, and that the whole thread of these three albums is that Beyonce is taking back music that was traditionally kind of stolen from

from Black Bowl. So she did it with house, Um, she'll do with country and then with rock and roll, and like a Beyonce rock album would be major, like and I'm thinking like rock, like you know, give me like a little Richard sample Tina Turner. It's all about Tina Like, um, I mean like like I'm talking, we're talking like classic rock and blues, like you know, the kind of rock that Elvis appropriated. Yeah eggs, oh gag. Well we'll get into that maybe in our VAS episode.

But like I girl, I really like I saw I think I saw that theory on Twitter and I had goose bumps, like the idea of giving it back to like what like you know, something that was stolen like, but I totally agree. I'm much more compelled by Beyonce rock album than another R and B album, which would also be amazing obviously because it's Beyonce, but like damn,

the Tina Turner samples would be off the chain. And when we think about, you know, Beyonce is a frequent collaborator with like Jack White, with like kind of cold Play ed Sheer in like pop rock types that she takes a lot of influence from, Like I mean, I think Beyonce once said that cold Play is like her favorite band or something like that, Like I mean, I you know, But again, it kind of flexes onto the quote unquote basicness of Beyonce that I alluded to last week,

which is not an insult, it's it's just makes her really clean canvas um. But I I feel like just looping back to the Madonna of it all, appropriation at large, like cultural exploitation at large, is like a massive sin of this country that, like to this day is still something that we just never reckoned with, Like we are constantly stealing from black and brown culture without even realizing it.

I don't I don't even have to say that. It's like so you know, rudimentary and obvious to say, but like, I'm just so grateful for what Renaissance is and whatever she does next, because you know, last week when we were saying, like Beyonce watched Post and then made this album, like you know, we were joking, but like, but Beyonce

literally does love Post. Like she's on the record saying that she loves that show, and um for me when we're sorting out because the you know, since in the week that this album has released, there have been a lot of conversations around Renaissance talking about like what is the role of appropriation? Is Beyonce appropriating quote unquote queer culture, trans culture ballroom? You know, like is this her her um territory to trod on? And for me and this

is just my personal belief. So if people don't believe, but people disagree with me, that's totally cute. But like, when it comes down to the question of telling a story that isn't yours, is the basic way of putting it. If you're going to tell a story that isn't yours, for me, it's about one clocking the hours on the story you want to tell, Right, what are the research is what's the research you've done? Who are the sources you're citing? And, as we've already laid out in our

album review, like Beyonce has done all of that. The second question is like reckoning with your conviction, Right? Do you want to make this because you care about this community and you have an investment in it? Or do you want to make this because you want to collect

the cloud of highlighting a marginalized community? Right? And I think that Beyonce was very smart to release all this Uncle Johnny stuff to show that she has a personal stake in this, that this is her life, that you know, she grew up with house music and with queer culture by way of her uncle. Right. And then the last thing is do you stick the landing? Like? Is it just good? Is it good art? And it's good art,

It's good fucking art. And like for me, it's like that tree out of Things is like a really great rubric for to figure out whether or not your art is you know, gonna exploit some people. And I think that for her to say all these iconic houses, all these iconic women's names, to give credit where credit is due, it's just like exactly how you do it? Know what I mean, UM, and I'm so grateful for that. Wow, we really have UM consumed a lot. That was a

lot over the past week. Is there anything Is there anything that you're really looking forward to that's coming out or happening in the next couple of weeks that, like the listeners, the Virgins can um consume as well so that they are on the same track as us. There literally is something that I can't think of what it is right now. Do you have an answer to that question? Um? Okay, A couple of things that I'm like, you know, I

named the books that I'm reading at the moment. I still think I want to figure out this book club scenar. Like all of our d M s are about people saying they want to do the book club. We've had like multiple people say they want to be our intern. So we will be making it happen. Oh, The Sandman, that's what we want to talk about. Okay, okay, so

will I watch it? I'll watch it. I started watching the new Netflix series The Sandman, which is an adaptation of Neil Gaiman's comic book series, which was turned into a series of graphic novels. Um, I'm really trying to take my time on it because I don't want to go through it too quickly. Um, Fran, if you watch it, if you'll watch it, like, I'll save my thoughts about it. And I actually think Fran and I did talk about this, but maybe we should do a Neil Gaiman episode because

Neil Gaiman is really important to me. I've like read everything he's ever written, and Fran is like a true virgin, and so I think it would be fun to have them like try out a couple of things and have a conversation about it. Um. But yeah, we can definitely do maybe for our next new segment. Um, once Fran has watched a little bit of The Sandman and I've watched a little bit more, we can talk about it. But it's really good. Um, if anyone out there wants

to start watching it, definitely do that. I'm gonna see bullet Train. That's so excited. I'm gonna see bullet Train. Actually might maybe see it later today or like, maybe it's gonna be really hot in Nelly this week, so maybe one day when it's really hot, I'll go to the movies maybe. Um, So we'll probably talk about that next week. I'm definitely excited for Bad Bunny in Bullet Train, Like I'm going to be like wet and that like sucking the r C. It's gonna be gross. Uh yeah.

We'll be back next week, um and back to our usual format with a discussion on all things Basilerman, but for real this time, because I know we said that last week. It's just you know, sometimes take a little turn. So now you have an extra week to catch up on, you know, Basilerman's. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. It actually helps us a lot.

It cannot be overstated that if you leave us a review, it is the number one thing or maybe the number two things, aside from sharing with your friends, um, to help our podcasts become so famous. You can find me on social media at friends, squish co anywhere you want, and you can find me at Rose Damn You. You can subscribe to Like a Vision anywhere you listen. This is an I Heart production. Our producer is the Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Chess Crane Chitch

and Nicky Etour. Until next week, See you later, Virgins