You Can Put It Anywhere

the Last of Us. So, Fran, I was able to convince you to watch The Last of Us and you were, as you were, fully caught up. So before we even get into last night's episode, just like, what generally are you feeling about the show now that you've watched it. I am adoring it. Um. I was never like a horror movie genre buff growing up as a kid. However, my cousins and I loved the zombie genre and we

thought zombie stories were so cool growing up. And I feel like I have this kind of nostalgic attachment to like old school zombie stories. And so when you told me about this show and how it's kind of bringing prestige to like a well trotted genre. I don't think I ever could have expected what came from it, and I think that this most recent episode I was able to kind of see what this show does best, which is almost make you forget that it's a zombie show.

Like your zombies are used or the infected as they call them, the clickers are used very sparingly, and I think, like the best zombie media, it's more about how people react to a zombie apocalypse, how people, how humans shape society in the absence of what once existed, And from what I know about the game, because I have consumed a little content about the game that the show is based on, um, the main antagonists of the game are humans and zombies are more of like a you know,

boogeyman kind of like uh like obstacle more than anything else. So so I do I do think you're You're right to note that that, like, the zombies are like kind of few and far between, and it is much more about the very human drama of it all in extreme circumstances.

And also just like how terrifying and sad survival is as a concept when you're like the lat when you are the last of us, right, and so like that's what made this third episode so revelatory, which, like kind of um, departs from the main set of protagonists and shows the viewers another story that they're entangled with, which is these two like men who I guess find each other, uh, Bill and Frank played by Nick Offerman of Parks and Recreation and Murray Bartlett from season one of The White

Lotus and they Bill, I mean, we've never seen Nick in a role like this, I don't think, but like Murray is so good that two of them are so good together. And it's also a story that could never have been told before, Like this is a completely original story that has a ground, like a kind of foundation in something that is extremely real and present and and like just of the moment, like I just can't even

put words to it, like what did you think? Well, um, So to give a little context about the this this story, so this is actually in the game, UM, but in the Last of Us part one, the first game, Bill is a character who the the main care there's meat on their journey and apparently you it's just kind of like a throwaway moment where if you like hover over a certain thing, you see a photo of his partner who by the by the time the game happens, is

already dead. Um. And the creators of the show did talk about this in the behind the Episode thing that plays on HBO once the episode is done, and they decided to expand that story um too, you know, like tell Bill and Frank's story, because I think one of them said something interesting, which is like, in adapting, they only wanted to change things if they could make them better, and this certainly does that. Um. I mean, like, I

thought it was very beautiful. I also thought it was like obviously, like seeing gay love on screen is not radical, but what felt, um not, what felt exciting about it to me was that this is a show that's being watched by you know, like normy straight people who played this video game who are obsessed with it, and if they're going to want to watch the show, they're going to have to sit through watching a gay love story. And I love that. I think that's I think that's

like transgressive. And I'm sure there's a lot of people who were pissed about it, but I mean the fact that they went so far and like they had this sex scene which was like like like hot but also romantic, and like beautiful and like touching because it's this older man who's never had sex with another man. I like thought was so cool, and I love how Murray Bartlett

immediately clopped him immediately. It was so sexy and fun and like, as queer people watching this, we're kind of like, way, way, way, is this happening? Is this happening? And then like for just like on the line delivery, like the two of them were just giving something that is totally unexpected, like

from like what the actual script is. And like, honestly, Murray Bartlett, the way you are able to say, like go take a shower, Bill, and for that to be somehow the hottest thing like that, like that could not be a better way to say, we're gonna fun. You know what I said, break up that he said. He was like that meme of the little dog that said, I know what you are. He said, go go do, go wash your ass, go wash your pussy, Billy Bartlett, the man that you are. And I, like I I believe,

like I believed in their attraction to each other. I also believed that like of course, in this extreme scenario, Murray Bartlett, like he's been like wandering around the country like in the Apocalypse, Like of course, I'm sure he's thinking about like Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna suck this guy's brain out for his dick so that I get to stay in his fortress with this like rabbit that

he's cooking. And I like that part where he said, like, um, I'm not a whore, like not for lunch, no, like no matter how good it is, so like if we do this, I'm gonna stay here for another couple of days. So there is something transactional about it. But then three years later, but then it also is still really real. And what gilled me was the scene with the strawberries when into the strawberry and little giggle. Oh my god, I didn't it was so real. That was the best part.

It's like they're actually they're both phenomenal actors. And like in the conversation of like gay actors and gay gay actors and gay roles whatever, like something we know I don't care about. We don't care about I mean we care about, but like not in the way that other people care about it, right, Like people have very unnuanced ideas of like who should play what, and like this is a perfect example where you have talented actors making

great work. And I think that Murray Bartlett, as a gay man in this role, bringing a gay sensibility to the role created a foundation for them both to work on. Right, Like, this is how you do it. This is how you stick the landing, and you use like you you see your vision, and you also are able to bring in a phenomenal openly gay actor who's really good at what

he does to like make this even more real. Um also as also as my mutual Nolan Anxious Deluxe said on Twitter, um nick Offerman is married to Megan Malally, so he is in a gay marriage and he's he's part of the community. He is he's part of the community, and that's so funny. Um. Also, like I never would have thought about this if I didn't see um the

activist Peter Staley tweet about it. But like I didn't even register the kind of like metaphor of like a plague in like the story of two gay men specifically, Like but like that that the obviously it's not a ham fisted metaphor slash probably isn't even the intent of the writers, but like the fact that they're the real the realism of them choosing death together and how liberated they both felt in choosing death is so beyond beautiful.

Especially you and I rose like we're morbid bitches, and like you are a very morbid girl who like might die in a cabin one day. You know what I can do today? And I feel like that for for gay men to have survived a plague and to choose death on their own terms is nothing short of a miracle in a zombie plague, let alone in our actual

lived reality. It really does. That was so radical, Yeah, it really does, Like UM knowingly subvert the barrier gaze trope while still like having the game by having the gaze killed themselves. The gays buried themselves. Oh my god, I will be honest in that the end of their story, I was not quite as emotional as I had been. Like for me, the high point of their like vignette episode was the Strawberries, was was them getting attacked by

the raiders UM, and then the end of it. I like, I still found it beautiful, but I also thought like there was so much, almost too much time spent on it, and it was a little like indulgent, And but I did I liked when um Murray Bartlett's character said like, um, you know, I'm not going to pretend that it's not like objectively romantic that we're dying together, and like that is it was really beautiful and also I mean it was just it was funny too, like when Maurray Bartlett's like,

we're going to make friends, and like even in the Apocalypse the gays are like, we're having brunch. I don't think it. That is literally, oh my god. He's like, I've been talking to a nice lady on the radio, so fucking funny. Um, someone should give some much that, like give it a show, you know, like, yes, I met Bill and Frank had a drag night at some point, you know, like they found a way to like watch old episodes of drag Race. No, no no, no, honey, honey,

new episodes. You know, Rue is still going through the zombie Okay, do you do you think? Well, because um, drag Race like would never would not have happened because the zombie Apocalypse started in two thousand three, so there's no drag Race. There's no like Marvel Cinematic Universe. Beyonce I never had a solo career, Oh my god, wait,

that's so much culture. Wow, that's really depressing to think about. Um. I love imagining like this doomsday prepper, like trying to figure out a way to make lube um in the apocalypse. Um it was. I hope they just use coconut oil, right, Like, that's like the best if you're in a pinch for like butt sex. That is specifically, I have not I have not yet gone to ourchive of our own to check how much fan fiction has already been written about them, but I'm sure it's like, well, okay, let's let's see

right now. Yeah, let's check right now, Okay, Bill, Bill and Frank, there's already Okay, there's twenty six works. Um, let's we'll we'll check back in next week and see how many new ones there are. Um, okay, yeah, what else? I mean? I watched a lot this weekend, I feel, Okay, tell me, what are you watching? Okay? I don't know what I was on, but I feel like I was really playing catch up because I watched poker Face, this Rihon Johnson show on People, the one with Natasha Leone, Yes,

Natasha Leone, among others, so much fun. I would really be curious to know if you like it just because you're a Knives outstand but not a glass onion stand. And so we have like two different versions of Rion's work. I'm not a Knives outstand. I enjoyed the movie, but really I thought you were a true stand. I know, I really like not stop tweeting about it when it can amount, But maybe I did not. I don't think

I tweeted about it that much. It was like a very popular movie that I enjoyed seeing, and that was kind of it. There is a difference between liking something and being a stand. Yes, no, you're still right, that's and and standing. To say you're a stand is slanderous. It's it's a misnomer and saying that and I am an offended place. Um. Yeah, I'm interested in watching it because from what I've heard is that the episodes are very episodic and and you can kind of like pick

and choose the ones you watch. But what like, give me your like top view, sell me on it, pitched me the show. Yeah, So I mean I am a Natasha Stan, and I will say a crystal clear Stan. I adore her even if I stand, even though I don't even like Russian doll that much, but like, I just love her. Um. The show follows her a casino worker, um,

getting like graveled up in getting rolled up in some controversy. Um. I guess with the people that owned the casino after they discover that she has this kind of um superhuman ability to tell if people are bluffing or not, to tell if people are are lying or not. And is it a superpower. It's not. It's not a literal superpower. She's just kind of like a human detector. Yes, it's her um Sherlock holmes Ian quality, like right, like every every SUPERI every Yes, it's kind of like every detective

has a thing. Remember Cam Jansen, she had a photographic memory. She said, click, you know, Natasha Leo, like you don't remember that Cam Jansen mystery novels? Oh yes, Phoebe's entering the chat. Than this is kind of lesbian. I feel like this is kind of like lesbian canon. Is Cam Johnson okay? The Secret World of Alex Mack where she

turned into a puddle? No, it was kind of like Encyclopedia Brown for people that couldn't afford a Encyclopedia Brown maybe, or like Junia b Jones in but like still some like mystery component. Um So, anyways, she gets reveled up in some controversy and it goes on the run for

reasons I won't spoil. And while she's on the run, she keeps bumping into like a random miss murder mysteries across the country, and um, it's very absurdest Okay, like the fact that she keeps like stumbling upon these murders is totally silly. But when you give your way get when you give yourself to the kind of reality that they're in, we're in. She just is constantly stumbling upon these murders that she wants to solve. Um. I personally love it, and I think that the acting is fun.

I think the writing is totally slapstick. I think the jokes are really good and it's not um, each episode isn't really a who done it? It's more of a ye done it? Because again very Rihan Johnson, right, they tell you who did it at the kind of in like fifteen minutes into each episode and from there Natasha walks in. It's a very interesting and I think original to tackle mysteries. So when you do watch it, because I think you will. Yeah, I'm I'm definitely interested in

checking it out. Um once. I'm currently in the midst of my annual my Now annual Girls rewatch Alison Williams. Well, after that, i think I'm gonna try watching Succession because I've never watched it and I know it's coming back, and um, I'm gonna I'm gonna give it the old college try because I keep getting served TikTok's about it and about the gays that everyone ships together or like

not gays whatever, they are all kind of gay. Speaking of TV shows that I watch and you don't on the flip side, Um, so, I watched this Now series finale of gossip Girl last week and I just wanted to do you care if I like spoil how it ended because you still watching? Right? No? No, no spoilers. I'm just curious, like, did the show and you don't want spoilers? No idea? No? No, sorry, sorry, sorry, I

don't care about spoilers. I'm just mostly curious about was the show aware that it was getting canceled or was

it a total clip? Yeah? So, um Joshua Saffron, who was the show runner, who was a writer on the original series, has said that he they originally intended for the episode to be like an hour and twenty minutes, and the last twenty minutes of it, which I'll take place in Rome, really set up a lot of things for the following season and introduced a new character, and once he kind of saw the writing on the wall, he went in and edited all that stuff out so that it was more of a closed loop at the end.

So there character still is introduced, and you see a couple of things that we're probably parts of that story, but for the most part, there's on a ton of

actual cliffhangers. There are definitely things that aren't resolved. But the big resolution is that Tavvy comes out as gossip Girl because Um the kids all decide that they want to take down gossip Girl, and they think that the way to do that is by trying to like steal her thunder So at the met Gala um Zoya, who's the young character, she wears a dress that says I am gossip Girl, and then they leak a story that Ryan Murphy is trying to buy the rights to for

a gossip Girl TV show about Shanda Rhymes or something, and tavvy Um is like, uh, they're not taking my TV deal and shows up at Monetta tavern Um where I coincidentally had dinner with Hunter Harris who writes on the show last weekend, and Tavvy shows up and it's like there's like, um, Mr Murphy, it's to me, I'm Gossip Girl. Um wait is Ryan Murphy in it? No, because because then everyone, like all of the teens are like, oh my god, it was you because it was a setup.

And the cops come slap some handcuffs on her clink clink, bitch, you're going to prison because she has all of this like kind of teeny porn on her phone because she was like cyberbullying kids and like like sexually harassed, cyber harassing, cyber sexual passing children. So so what Joshua Safron has said in some interviews is that they they kind of always knew that the teachers would not be Gossip Girl

anymore post season two. Um, so they still would have been part of the show going forward, but in in like kind of diminished capacity. And there's a post credit scene at the end of the finale in which one of the teens, dad who like runs a media company, approaches one of the teachers about turning Gossip Girl into an app So that is probably what would have happened in the third season. Um, and you know it was. I'm sad it's it's gone. I really liked the reboot,

even though it was definitely flawed. Um And I think what they were setting up was really interesting. I liked some of the actors. UM. I thought that the guy who played the slutty pan sexual Max was like really good. He had a very emotional moment in the finale. I really appreciated that. In the back half of this second season, they started giving um Luna, who is played by Zion whose name I can't remember, the transactress. They actually gave

her a storyline. She was great. She had like a whole like thing with her mother being like, um faking being Latin X. It was very like Hilaria Baldwin vibes. So you know, rip Gossip Girl. Um, you will be missed by like twenty people probably, and um, it's definitely you know, they're still like hold like kind of holding out hope that the show might be saved, but even Joshua Saffern has said it's the show is too expensive

to exist. Anywhere else. Oh, it's expensive. It's like it's the fashion, Like it's expensive in terms of production, the way it looks, the clothes, everything. And he's just said if they had to cut the budget, it just wouldn't be the same show. And he doesn't want to make a cheaper version of it. Damn. I honestly, I felt like the reboot was totally earned, like I was ready for it. It just like it wasn't. I don't think it was for me. But r I P. I'm so

sorry for your loss. Another one, another one. I'm gonna be fine. I'll be okay. Now I have to pivot to shows that like won't get canceled. Oh, so you're gonna you're finally gonna watch a Fleishman in Trouble or whatever? No, are you watching Fleishman in Trouble? I watched the first two and a half episodes of Fleishman in Trouble because so many people told me to watch By so many people? Do you mean Justin told you to watch it? Because Join and I have talked about it, and I did

not understand why he was watching it. I told him it looks like the most heterosexual thing possible, and that I feel like it's the kind of show that gay people like when they turn on their TV screens all that they see a static Yeah, like yeah, gay people like actually physically cannot see it. That's kind of how I felt. I'm I guess it's a mini series that's

maybe based on a book question Mark. It kind of feels like it's in the normal people genre of TV, or like maybe um Elena Ferranti novel genre like Elena Ferrante like adaptations, where it's like beautiful, slow stories about human heterosexual relationships, and like you know, and I, um, I just I felt I feel duped because like in the key r of the show, like Claire Danes and Lizzie Kaplan are the only characters shown and present, And and then you click on the first episode and you're like,

this is a story about how Jesse Eisenberg fucked his way across New York. And you're like, what, Yeah, that's literally Eisenberg doesn't fuck. Yes, that's what I'm saying. And I had to watch Jesse Eisenberg suck so many women in like like a few minutes, and I was like, where is Lizzie? Where is Claire? Yes, I I just

I didn't understand. And the writing, Okay, I will, I will admit the writing is like really great, Like, but I it's just about subject matter that does not concern me, right, Like I don't watch things about men on principle most of the time, you know. And I felt like I came out of this being like why did I who told me that this was gonna be a good show? It was Justin? Because Justin has tested me several times after that initial conversation to tell me that he was

still watching In Trouble. Oh my god, I don't. I don't get it. I I really don't, and I am I want I want these hours of my life back. Um, But so virgins don't watch Fleishman's In Trouble. I couldn't even bring it. I couldn't even bring myself to like hate watch it at that point because like it was like actually kind of good TV. It was just like subject matter that I hated and didn't want to watch. And okay, well this this is interesting. Do you often

hate watch things? Oh all the time, baby, all the time. I I constantly if everyone's talking about it, I need to watch it, right, Like that's why we are different. Women. Look, Yeah, it's true. Okay, wait, this is actually very prevalent because I watched Real House Friends of West Hollywood or whatever, the real gay the Real Gay Friends of West Hollywood. Um, and so I was thinking a lot that this has proved that that nymphle Wars is right about literally everything,

and they everything in the culture. They are oracles of culture. Um. Okay, wait, I have some thoughts about the wee host stuff, but like real quick, like, what's what is your philosophy on

hate watching slash? You're saying you don't really do it? Yeah, I'm I don't watch things that I don't enjoy, and I don't understand why anyone would, well, because I think criticizing things is fun, and I think I personally find a lot of like I I feel satiated by watching something that other people like and then identifying why it's not good. I could that I could not could not

be me and not be me. I understand, I understand, and but that that I will also stipulate is like a be true of like gay ship right, like gay and transship like ship that like is trying to be representative quote unquote of our community, which is like a fallacy and like nobody should represent anyone like that if

we've like learned anything at this point so far. Like the show Real house I don't even know what it's sucking called because it's the Real Friends of we Ho, it's such a it's such a word salad, like it needs another syllable in order to mirror Real Housewives of Mamma, you know what I mean. Like, it's it's just not it's difficult, nobody can remember what it's called. Um, but it's also just obviously really bad. It's the thing is, it's not even that it's terrible. It is just boring,

which is the worst thing it could possibly be. Because I did, I did try. We'll not try. But I had friends come over last week to watch drag Race, and like, of course we started watching it when it came on afterwards, of course, and it wasn't even that we were like boo throwing tomatoes at the screen. We just mind numbing it was. It was just boring and we started talking and eventually, like without even realizing it, turned it off. The same thing. Um, I was at

Ryan's this past weekend. It came on after drag Race, and he was like, on the phone or something, and so I watched the first couple of minutes of it and just zoned out and was on my phone because it's boring. I agree, and I do think that boring is the thing we should be saying because to your point, Rose, and this is kind of why I want to talk

about like hate watching. It's like we're actually giving this way too much energy, right, like something like the real whatevers of West Hollywood is like not even worth the hate watch, And like, yeah, I'm similar to you. After Drag Race, I watched it with a bunch of friends. We were like, let's watch and make fun of it. And while we were watching it, and I was giggling

actually because it is incredibly stupid. But like while we were watching, I was like, my god, I wonder how many people are hate watching it right now, because no one in this room is enjoying the show. And is it Like I was like, is it going to get great ratings because it's so it's such a hate watch

and it's not because it actually is just boring. But like I think, just to the effect of what you're saying, like this like bizarre kind of like weird hyper attention to the show and like what it means for the culture, and like all the memes it's generating, and all this stuff just like is really smelly, Like it doesn't mean anything to the culture. It's so it's so like bland and inoffensive and just it's like a nothing burgers. It's

a nothing burger. It's it's not interesting. And I feel like that all the things that people are placing on top of it, all the critique, right this Vulture article, which like people were sharing on Twitter, like it's actually

just like the show isn't even that bad. It's really actually just like what I'm smelling is just internalized homophobia, which is nothing new, but like we shouldn't be saying, you know, uh, these people are horrible and not even fucking famous and they're not even real friends and they're bad representation or whatever. It's like you could Real Housewives. Yes,

that's what I was gonna say. We don't need any of that from the Real Housewives, like, but just need them to be interesting and exciting and fun to watch exactly. The Real Housewives are funny, magnanimous, irreplicable, Like well, Good Housewives is funny, magnanimous, irreplicable, messy, controversial and like none of these men are any of them? Well, I think no, Brad Driski is great. Tadrick Hall is like no gen Shaw level of unwatchable, Like I mean, you don't watch

salt Lake. But like Tadrick is the reason why this show is like brows in itself right, and bros Is now a verb thanks to Billy Eichner, because like, what the argument to any degree when we say, like queer people need to support this and if you don't support this, then you don't support for media, It's just like such

it anti intellectual. Take that as like Ti Mitchell pointed out on this podcast and tweeted about later, like so many queer representation quote unquote arguments are really just this thinly veiled way to say, like I'm not personally famous, but I should be, you know what I mean? Like that is actually like what we were watching Tadrick do online when he was writing all these like handwritten letters which were certainly handwritten by unpaid interns because there's like

five different fonts on them. Yeah, it's kind of wild that like his that Tadrick's handwriting is like I think it is his handwriting because like it's he still has the handwriting of like a high school senior. Like it's like it's like bubble letters, like bubbles were like that, like you know the f the like swords that used

to draw in your notebooks from the middle school. Hearts on the eyes like curls empty font like I've aid every dancer I've promised payment to curls mt. Fine, Well, all that means that he did people or he let them think they were going to get paid, and then it turned out that he had never intended to. Yeah, anyways, Um, it's all of this is coming back to say in the breath of what I felt was worth hate watching.

And what I want to say about this show is that we don't need to like patently reject it because it's like bad gay representation. We can patently reject it because it's category bad and boring and contrived and like, also, we just like want to watch women, Like let's just say that, like we like we want to watch women on TV. Like gay men don't want to watch each

other on TV. And I think it's because you know, a lot of them hate themselves and that's like fine, but they should work that out, like without having to write a Vulture article. You know what I mean. Yeah, the idea of reading a Vulture art cool about real

friends of who just gives me hives. It literally reminded me of when the Fire Island TV show came out and that one faggot for like huff Post Gay Voices r I p Um wrote something that was like that wrote something that was about like Fire Island is like representative of gay America's moral decline, and I was like, girl, I'm sorry to a dick, yes like suck nick Offerman,

smelly post apocalyptic dick. And I'm sorry to make this joke again, but I have to say again that if you are a queer person who's saying that we as queer people need to writ large like support all queer media, then you have so many Adam Lambert albums to listen to, like I'm sorry, Like you have a back catalog of you know, Randy Rainbow YouTube videos. But that one thing I would never hate watch is anything starring Sarah Michelle Gellar because I love her and she's never made a

bad film or TV show in her life. I love the way you choked on that. Well, that's because she's never made up that that's because I'm trying to swallow this dried this dried mango I'm eating, I'm sure. But today we will be discussing one of her greatest contributions to culture, um Cruel Intentions, which I have watched recently. So true, True to the True, to the virgins here

to represent. So the first time I ever saw Cruel Intentions, I rented it from Blockbuster and watched it with my dad, and I was it was came out, so it would have been like on home video in two thousand maybe, so I was twelve, and the last thing I wanted to be doing while watching this movie was sitting next to my dad. It's a very strange movie to watch with your parents, especially parent to you like, I have nothing in common within I could never don't know how

to talk to. But your parents were not the like throw their hands in front of your eyes kind of parents. Well, my mom did used to tell me to cover my eyes during the sex scenes and then you wouldn't insects in the city and I would cover them and then kind of thing through. Yeah, yeah, my parents, yes, truly, anytime we would want what's like a movie, they made me close my eyes honestly, any any Mission Impossible movie. I have a visceral memory of the violence. You know,

the sex scenes. There's always a sex scene in every Mission Impossible movie. And my parents I should be like no, and I'd be like, I want to see Tom cruises dick, So I want to suck Tom Cruise's dick. He looks the same, he's he's a vampire, like an ageless vampire. No, but he has recently he looks like he's aged a little bit. But it's been good for him. Yeah, it's

been hot. I I want you know seasoned men. Also loved him when he was a twink, and I loved him when he had bad teeth before he got those you told me before he got those top and Bottom veneers, Mama, Okay, I I loved him bad teeth. But like I honestly had not thought because I famously did not see top Gun and I have not seen Tom Cruise in any recent movie. But I also I was able to clue into the fact that Tom Cruise is hot now after he did the Bloody Mary Dance. Child, he did, you

should watch it. He did the Bloody Mary Dance. He loves Gaga. After after loves Gaga and he did it to support her at like and did it like outside his mansion or whatever, and he's he looks hot. Like what if they walk the red carpet together at the Oscars? Oh my god, you know that, you know that I want them to be together. I think that would be an award. I bet that would That would be the ultimate celebrity couple. To me, Tom Cruise of a person who like it's not even about if he's gay or not.

It's just he's such a freak. His sexuality doesn't matter him being in a couple with Lady Gaga also a freak in in just like an opposite but parallel way. Oh my god, Oh my god, I want that so badly. It is an opposite of a parallel way. And they

both are highly susceptible to cults. They're they're both um, they're both really good at the performance of celebrity right, like they both understand what being a celebrity is and like how to live and breathe at And I also think that Gaga has this like truly like biological like biological like impulse to like fall in love with every co star she's ever as so so like so like because she's like Standislavski or whatever, she just like can't help but like fall in love with like Bradley Cooper

and then like Tom Cruise, even though Tom Cruise is not a co star, but like, you know, structurally, but if she had the closest thing she had, if Tom Cruise had been the star the co star of a star is born, they would they would be in a relationship, There's no question of mine. I mean her and Bradley Cooper would be in a relationship if Bradley Cooper wasn't gay but allegedly allegedly, allegedly alleged allegedly. Um yeah, but I can't wait for her to fall in love with

Joaquim Phoenix. I mean it's probably already happened. It's happening right now. It's happening literally. I mean, she's not doing any press right now because she's so immersed in that movie. Is going to absolutely destroy me. Oh my god, I'm of coffee. Look at all my had such a beautiful lip color on, and now it's like now it's on your now it's all on my coffee. That's why you got to use a straw, babe, I gotta use a straw. Yeah, better for your teeth too. UM well, I forgot that

we're here to talk about cruel intentions. We are here to talk about cruel intentions. UM the UM teen psycho sexual thriller, which is not um, a phrase you hear often. UM. It is a reimagining of uh Pierre code Leo still Laclos's seventeen eighty two novel Les Liaison's Don Jerroses or Dangerous Liaisons as it has also been known, But it takes that story and updates it to the elite teen prep school scene in New York City in the late nineties,

sort of like an early gossip Girl. And I'm sure it had a lot of influence on gossip Girl, which we were talking about earlier. UM It's stars Um Sarah Michelle Gellar as UM, Catherine who Katherine Murty who is you know the Queen be the Blair Waldorf if you will of her you know, elite um prep scene, and then her stepbrother, Sebastian Valmont played by Ryan Philippe. They have this sort of game they play where they seduce people and destroy them for their own ships and giggles.

They also Ryan PHILIPPI really wants to fuck Sarah Michelle Geller, his stepsister, and she issues him this challenge that if he fux this um new girl played by Reese Witherspoon um and destroys her, that if if he can get her to fall in love with him, because you know she would never fall for a bad boy, um, that SMG will finally fuck him in. That's sort of pseudo incest scenario. And as she tells him, you can put it anywhere, which I guess me, and he wants to

suck her in the ass. Sarah, I don't know if everyone came in with the intention to like make this actually like funny, but like Sarah Michelle Geller makes this movie so funny, so being yes, it is also still sexy dangerous, like you know, gripping. I feel, Um, I don't know if this is like I'm trying to think about the source material s Stangroue or whatever, and I the virgins. Maybe you said that the virgin sound like

the shot from from the Little Mermaid. Oh my god, wait, I can't wait for the live action version of that character. Who's going to play that? Friends? They probably cut it? No, Timmy Timoth a Shaley would have even that, oh my god, I would have spoken French, oh my god. But then anyways, okay,

side track, side track, Um, I think that dangerous. This lion Standrew is like spoofed in Arrest Development, where they're like Michael, Sarah's character watches a movie called The Lick Cousin, the Cousins DANGERU or these like cousins fuck or whatever, and it gives it plants the seed of an idea where he's like wants to funck his like step step cousin or whatever. Um, are they I can't remember? Are

they cousins, cousins in cruel intentions? Are they step cousins? No? No, they're stepbrother and step sister, step brother and step sister, right, so they're not biologically related that they're not. No, it's totally It's totally fine. It's totally totally fine. It is camp. I mean some of Sarah's line deliveries in this, like I mean when she says you can put it anywhere, when she says, I'm the Marcia fucking Brady of the Upper east Side and some times I want to kill myself.

She has a she has a hollowed out cross necklace filled with cocaine that has a tidy spoon for her to do cocaine with this movie? Was I really wish that I had had this movie as a part of, you know, the small group of films that like opened up my secular awakening as we call it, along with a Mulan rouge rent Um, if your mom, if you had watch this with your mom and she'd the cross that she would ross, she would you would have had to go through an exorcism. Yes, she would have expelled. Um. Yeah,

you would have shoot. There would have been a demon inside you and she would have gotten it out. But I I know, truly I I would have been I would have I would have grown up so much faster. Um. But I say that honestly because I feel like, and I don't even think I'm exaggerating when I say this, I do feel like Ryan Philippe is like ass was a pivotal moment in a lot of you know, people

of Fagga experience. You know what I mean. Well, the combination of his ass while love fool by the Cardigans is playing Oh my God, I forgot that really, like was a gay awakening for so many people on so many levels. Wait, I forgot that love fool is playing? Are you serious? And it gets cut off very abruptly, this mute. This movie has a banging soundtrack, bittersweet symphony by the Verve. They put their whole pussy into that. Also the opening song Every Me and Every You, which

is by Placebo. I believe Placebo, I don't know, I I honestly. Roger Cumbell, the guy that directed this, also did the sweetest thing. I love thee the best sort of like not like one of the best, like kind of um off the beaten track, like not early tooth thousands comedies that like it's kind of a if you know, you know, absurdist, totally stupid, like totally intentionally stupid. Also starring Selma Blair, who in that movie is kind of

the I'm not gonna say slut of the group. But there is a scene in which a guy's dick is literally stuck in her mouth right because of the piercing Oh my god, that is such a funny scene. I mean, Cameron is also such a slot in that movie, and I think it's very liberating. Like she also she's a whole song about like how big the penises, how big. She how she loves big penises or whatever, and it's not even a musical, but then she like breaks out

into song. It's kind of brilliant. It's a very strange movie. Um, but this was a strange time for movies, the late nineties early two thousands, and Cruel Intentions is certainly a product of that. I mean, it also came at um an interesting time in Sarah Michelle Geller's career because she was and she would have been two years into doing Buffy, so this was one of her like sort of infrequent side projects. So at this time, um, Buffy was already

like a huge hit. Like like now we think of Buffy is the show that has this like cult following, but at the time it was hugely successful. It was Sarah Michelle Geller was everywhere, and I do think that a lot of this movie rides on her star power. And Ryan Philippie and Reese Witherspoon, Honestly, at this time we're still relative unknowns um. They also this was the film that they met on and um, they later got married,

so it did bring them together. Wow, I didn't know that. Okay, wait, so wait, Reese Witherspoon was unknown when this movie came out, I had not unknown, but she wasn't like super famous. I think, I want to say Election also came out. I do feel like this was the year that Reese broke and UM. Yeah, and I'm sure that um cruel intentions, what was what really brought her to the attention of

young people. And then Legally Blonde came out in two thousand and one, so that is really what solidified her fame. UM and I think this was probably like the first building block of that got it okay, okay, And I am you know, and I'm not an SMG scholar, so I appreciate the context because she really is, to me, like the anchor of this movie. Like it's it is like an ensemble cast. Um that feels like in the kind of closer genre of like you know, psycho sexual

thrillers and absolutely closer closer for teens. Yes, well teens that are played by twenty six year olds, right, like, but Sara Michelle Gellar, you know, she is like Buffy is such a you know, she's a strong female character. She's a heroine. She's a good girl, but she's also very sassy. But we hadn't really seen smg play a bad girl since well, she was on a soap opera before she was on Buffy, and I'm sure she was like an evil twin or something, because you know that's

how soap operas go. Um, so she got to, you know, dip her toe into playing the bad girl, and I think she fucking slays it. She played the bad girl every time, like she's so so fucking good on Buffy. She only got the chance to do that in There's there's a couple episodes and well there's one episode in season four where Buffy and Faith swap bodies. Faith is another vampire slayer who's who's evil and she and Buffy swap bodies. So Buffy gets to be a bad girl

for an episode. But um, you know, Catherine is really the the evilist Sarah has ever played, except she was in this TV show called The Ringer where she played identical twins and one of them was bad. Maybe okay, So sa Michelle Geller is on a press tour right now for this new Paramount show I believe called wolf Pack, which is a spinoff of Teen Wolf, and I saw an interview in which she said that she thinks that Katherine from Cruel Intentions grown Up would basically just be

her character from Due Revenge. But I also think that Catherine from Cruel Intentions grown Up would be would be um Sonja Morgan or like or just would would be a real housewife on a New York City housewife. I mean, honestly, you know who else should be a New York City housewife? Is Christine Branski? Please? Maybe maybe lou Anne is Catherine grown up Luanna? I would love to see Lunn act.

She's probably so bad. You mentioned Christine Bransky. There's something there as some iconic I don't like some people who have like just a few scenes in this film. Christine

Bransky is one of them. Also, tera Read in the opening scene, um because Sebastia, she's one of Sebastian's conquests and he's leaked all these nudes of her online in a sort of like revenge porn scenario, and tera Read has the iconic line, there's naked pictures of me on the internet, which relatable honestly, an oracle, she she was predicting what would be common and evident like problem in

the culture of nudes leaking online. And now you know, soon we're going to be electing people to office that have leaked nudes. That's that's my dream, honestly. UM, do you okay, So when you first watched this movie was it do you remember just like latching onto it immediately? Because SMG? Did you was it a rewatch for you? Did you like watch it every day after school or I had the vhs then the DVD. I would watch them all the time. I would quote the movie all

the time. I wanted to be Sarah Michelle Geller in this movie. I knew immediately that I was not a Reese Witherspoon. I was not a good girl. I was a bad girl. No, no, no. And Reese honestly cloy is cloying Lee sweet. She almost does what she does best, which is like to be good to an exhaustive degree. Like she is so pure that it's like annoying. Um. I was watching this movie with my friend. I was watching Cool Intentions with my friend for the first time,

and we were marking on. There's this scene where Reese is like in a car with like that with I think Ryan Philippe, as they're like flipping and trying to yes, yes, yes, and she like starts to make she like makes the demon face. She's so she's so bad at making a goofy face. Like I actually like, if I was a director and I was watching, I was like, Reese, like, you you need to do something else, Like, oh no, I think that's you know, but I do. I just don't think she knows how to make a face that

is like goofy and evil at the same time. Like I just like, I was like, clearly, it's like not in your nature to do this reeson with her spoon. I thought it was like endearing almost I'm not trying to be condescending except you, but it might not be what you're trying to do, but it's what you're doing. But it's what you're doing. Um oh some of okay,

Phoebe just clude us into some of Blair and legally blonde. Yes, well, I mean some of Blair was definitely an it girl at the time that this movie came out and remained one for years. Um. She also she and Sarah Michelle Geller are lifelong friends. Um. Sarah has supported her a lot recently because elma UM a couple of years ago, uh you know, revealed that she has been dealing with

a chronic illness. I believe ms UM she was on I think the most recent season of Dancing with the Stars, although they do like four of them a year, so there could have been like two more seasons since she was on it. Um she was. I don't think she was on the same season as Jojo Siwa, but I think she was on the same season as Smith Jared from Sex in the City Smith Jared, Oh my god,

the one he was my favorite. Sex in the City boo. Unfortunately, this movie has an iconic same sex kiss between Sarah Michelle Gellar and Selma Blair, in which Sarah Michelle Geller is, you know, saying that girls just on each other all the time, and they have this very hot kiss. That was I think probably the thing that people remember most from this movie because it was in a pre meme world. It was a meme like it was replicated in movies.

I think there's I think in one of the Scary movie films they spoof it um Sa Michelle Gellar and some of Blair one best kiss with the MTV Movie Awards, I think, and maybe even like kissed on stage. Um It's I think it's a good kiss. I it reminds me, is there like a little spit dribble, there is a little they are, Yes, it's hot. We have talked about spit kink's recently on our Disobedience episode. Yeah, I will say like when I watched it, I felt like it

was it definitely was hot. It definitely did to me feel like exactly in this era of culture when like straight women kissing was this like sexual kind of phenomenon that like got boys really rowdy. Like we were kind of talking about this in our Jennifer's Body episode, but like do you remember do you remember like when you would go to like Walmart or Target whatever to like buy movie posters or like just like posters for your room and I would I would buy them a hot topic, yes,

hot topic as well. But one of those posters was always those two girls and like gray like underwear or whatever, like kissing on a bed. Do you remember this image? Like oh my god? But but anyways, all I'm trying to say is like it was just like this very bizarre era of culture that like talked about lesbians and erased lesbians at the same time. It was it was it was it was lesbian is um from the male gaze, which you know, lesbians only existed in popular culture to

titillate straight man, Yeah exactly. But but this I felt like was something that we could still embrace. Like it was queer, Like it was like totally like this, this I think to me, this movie, and like what it did best was like revel in hedonism, right, Like it

was like this, what is the maximum bad? You can be like, well, well, revel in, revel in it, but still but cast it as evil because what we because the journey of this movie is that Sebastian starts out as a hedonist, falls in love, and then rejects hedonism and is punished for his hedonistic lifestyle because he spoiler alert dies at the end and Catherine, who sort of drove him to this, gets her come up and when all of Sebastian's diaries are our oh yeah, like uh

disseminated throughout the school and so bizarre. It is a movie that but that celebrates hedonism but then takes this very puritanical view of it. And you know, the only love that is celebrated and upheld is you know, straight monogamous romantic love and and and what more could we possibly wish for than straight monogamous romantic love. And that's what that's the reason I'm on tender Babe. Yeah, I mean,

I know, like heterosexually. I know, I'm aware that, like as you adjust your legs, I'm aware that like heterosexuality is like slowly but surely becoming like illegal in this country, like with hope, like it will be like a criminal offense, um, one day, but lock them up. For now, I will be practicing heterosexuality to the fullest extent that I can. Um. Interesting, Yeah, I love being heterosexual. Um. Oh, you know what it's not. It's not scary movie that parodies the this It's not

another teen movie? Which did you ever watch that? No? Was it? It seemed like I always like was horny whenever I saw it in Blockbuster it made me horney. So not another teen movie? Is there was? After the successive scary movie, there was a string of these sort of spoof films for different genres. The first of them, and I think most successful, was not another teen movie,

which was Chris Evans's breakout role. Right. He plays the like Jock you know, main character who is like half Freddie Prince Jr. And she's all that and half Ryan Phillippi and cruel intentions. He has like a similar thing with his stepsister where he wants to suck her. Um and um, there is a scene of the lesbian kiss and they like go really in on the spit thing and it's like to a gross level that actually sounds really funny. Um, I kind of want to watch that now. Um.

It's but it's a good movie. I used to watch it a lot. I had it on DVD, and I used to watch it a lot, and it was I had a teen crush on Chris Evans because of it. Well, I think the teen genre in general, like in the vein of cruel intentions or whatever else you want to pull into it, Like I think it's like endlessly entertaining

to revisit. Like I watched a lot of Riverdale, Like I've watched four seasons, like four full seasons of Riverdale, right, like I've I think teen ship and the exaggeration of like how bad teen lives can be. Like by bad, I mean like how um daring controversial, Irreverend you can be like in this kind of like hot topic air of culture is like so funny to look at now, Like I've actually never seen the movie, um, thirteen, but that's kind of in this genre and you have to

watch thirteen. Oh my god, No, you're not allowed to say that because you don't understand the context. I've seen the scene on YouTube and I feel, but you need to watch the whole movie. Thirteen is so incredible. It inspired me to huff as a teenager. It's inspired NA, you need like barbitual barbituates or whatever, like you wanted to like like Judy like and like um like whipp it's with um whipped cream cans with it, you know. Today, Like I know, we were just talking about Gossip Girl

and how I liked the reboot. But for the most part, I can't watch media about teenagers. We have discussed this at length. It's the reason why I don't want euphoria. Um. But you know, like things like Euphoria and gossip Girl truly would not exist without cruel intentions. It is the blueprint, I think, so yeah, or maybe also I actually have never seen like Dawson's Creek, but like, are any of those shows like Dawson's Creek O C Like is that

era of TV? Also this kind of like teens being like murderous drug dealers or whatever, like no, no, Dawson's Creek. I didn't watch Dawson's Creek, but I believe Dawson's Creek is much more um, it doesn't reach that level. It's much more like interpersonal drama, like family drama. UM. And I also didn't watch The o C. But I know the O C is like not quite at that level.

I think Gossip Girl is kind of where we started seeing um, where we got the most of teens behaving like adults and specifics specifically because of their access to our proximity to wealth. M Oh okay, yeah, wait, how does wealth kind of exist in cruel intentions? I guess just well, they're all they're all very wealthy, you know. They they have unlimited resources and no parental supervision, so they are Yeah, it's the no parental surround, that's the

big thing. It's like, the richer you are, the less parent involvement you have in your day to day. That was the one difference on Gossip Girls that their parents were someone in the original Gossip Girl is that their parents were someone involved and the parents were actual characters on the show who had their own romantic dramas and like their own plot lines. But you know, for the

most part, the kids did act like adults. They were like going clubbing and like having these like making these like grand schemes that were obviously like in a way fueled by being teenagers, being dumb teenagers with like raging hormones. But because they had unlimited resources, they could you know, can cause to these like elaborate schemes and behave like you know, um eighteenth century aristocrats having you know, like

um intrigues. Yeah, honestly, I mean like it was I think that like experiencing even though I didn't see cruel intentions as a kid, Like when this like genre of kind of like TV films whatever was like coming through, I feel like I could attach. I feel like it was so aspirational to me. This is like really dark. But like I, you know, was a very unhappy kid. I did not enjoy my childhood, and a lot of

that had to do with my parents. And so these lives without parents, which I think are are present and a lot of like teena and kid you know, like things like I, you know, I wanted that so bad. I wanted a life without parental supervision. I wanted a life for my own, and they would give us this fantasy where in kids were like teens were fully capable

of doing it. We're in reality, it's like teens actually do still behave like children, like none of them actually act like this, and so you know, it was a fantasy, but I loved that ship. Oh you know, what we do have to talk about is the gay stuff and cruel intentions. Joshua Jackson of Dawson's Creek Fame plays Sebastian's gay friend who helps him in trap Betty's boss from Ugly Betty Daniel into being outed as gay. So that so that so that Ryan Phillippe can use him to

like get get into Reese Witherspoon's good graces. Oh my god, I forgot that Daniel meat. Is this dick and cock sucking dick and cock? Absolutely? Um yeah, I mean gay blackmail, bring it back. Seriously, we're about we're to like cancel culture, like like representation matters to have that kind of fashion blackmail. We do Fran blackmail and would blackmail you any day. Oh my god, thank you. I would love to blackmail you. I would love to out you as trans I mean

thank you. I think we how we have both emotionally blackmailed each other somewhat successfully. You know that can't be true. It's true, And you know what, I think that's beautiful. I think and I think that's beautiful. Um wow. I mean, like I honestly like I'm I felt like when I watched this movie, I was like watching it through your eyes? Can I say that? Like, because we got my eyes they're gone. The virgins at home can't see, but the roses eyes are now gushing blood. They're now gone. And

I'm like the Corinthian from Sandman. I just have little teeth. You're giving pans labyrinthy, your eyes are on your hands. Um No. I was just gonna say, like, because we've been doing the show for a while and because you know, I'm the version so to speak, when I like in these you know, in our in the episodes that we've released so far, Like you know, I'm not always the virgin. We like to just talk about what we like to

talk about. But when I am the virgin, I feel, you know, I'm always just like, oh, I wonder what, like, like I wonder how Rose would think about this scene? You feel I feel close to you anytime I can see something like this. This very this is a kind of Rose movie to me movie, this movie was incredibly formative to my personality. I wanted to be Catherine. I wanted to be an evil, manipulative bitch who would funk her step brother, blackmail people, destroy their crucifix, and snort

cocaine out of my holida out crucifix. Please let in to our d m s at like a virgin tell us, do you want to suck your stepbrother? Um? Have you ever? Have you ever blackmailed someone for being gay? And what is your favorite? Um? Sarah Michelle Geller Media Property. Wait wait, wait, I actually would love to know the answer to those first two questions of any other virgins. Share we're at We're being fully serious and we will um. We won't let your messages after you send them, but we won't

use them against you. We won't. Next week we will be back with a discussion on Dolly parton the woman, the myth, the legend. Um. So uh you know join us for that yehaw. You can um connect with us on Instagram like a virgin. UM. My handles at Rose Damn. You can follow me anywhere online there and I'm Fran toato. You can find me at friends Squish to go anywhere you like. Like a virgin ism I radio production. Our producers Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman and Nikki Etre.

Until next week. It's a bitter sweet symphony that's live trying to make and meet your slave too money to you die. Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do. Why did I sing that as if I was the lead singer of nickel Back, I well, you're kind of yeah, there is a kind of nickelbacking on quality. There's photo but it also kind of sounds like Ganga, Like you know how Ganga sometimes goes like full Nickelback and she's like you know what I mean? Um oh oh, I know what you mean. I do