Three Crazy Dads (feat. Jill Gutowitz)

It's like almost that I'm just completely apathetic about it. You're you're standing on the top of Mount Trumpet right now. I'm not. I'm not being a grinch. It's not that I it's and it actually feels it's not like I feel like a grinch in that I'm the one person who's feeling this way. It seems like collectively a lot of people are feeling this about this holiday season. I don't know what it is. It's less of like a violent overthrowing of Christmas and more of like I am

dissociating from this Christmas season for whatever reason. Well, it also feels like the culture is not as obsessed with Christmas this year, Like there haven't been any big Christmas movies or memes. I haven't I haven't done my annual um tweeting the Grinch poster where he's holding the ornament and with the caption is he do you know? Which I like, literally tweeted every year and without fail, every year it goes viral. So we'll see if that happens again.

What are your what are your Christmas plans? By the way, well this is so funny. So Justin and I my best friend, and I go home to my parents for Christmas usually, but this year we are going a day after Christmas because Justin and I have book tickets to see Adele in Vegas on Christmas Eve or in Christmas on Christmas Eve, because tickets are like four hundred and

fifty dollars cheaper spending Christmas with Adele's. I'm spending Christmas Eve with Adele and I'm staying the night at Caesar's Palace. And apparently the Caesar's Palace buffet is incredible. I've been told there are crab legs. I am worried about you in a buffet because you do have a very sensitive tummy, and I don't want you to get sick. I also have,

you know, not that much restraint around unlimited around food. Yeah, you really really really want I'm a garbage disposal in that regard, but I would like especially be careful with the shell fish, babe. Yeah, that's gonna that's gonna really do a number on me. And they're after a daisy. I don't want to be like horny on Christmas Eve. Well you could find me. You can find some Christmas trade. Yeah,

justin I sharing the show. You could cruise cruise at adel. Honestly, it will probably be mostly faggots, like lonely faggots at the Adele Christmas Eve show. Most mostly fagelis as we say in Yiddish, and probably jew It and probably Jewish people, probably people that don't celebrate Christmas. What are you doing for for for for the holidays? Um? So, my best friend Ryan and I always go to his mom's in

Long Island for Christmas and we are going this year. Um. I think another like part of the reason why it isn't feeling like Christmas this year is that every year we do, you know, traditional Jewish Christmas, we go to the movies on Christmas Day, and this year there really isn't a big Christmas Day film release. I know, well, Matilda's coming out on closest day on Netflix, but it's also on Netflix, so it's like kind of not the same.

I mean, it's not like we even talked about not going to the movies on Christmas Day because we've already seen Avatar. Like I'm not going to go see The Fableman's on Christmas Day or ever. Um So I think we might just watch something at home, and like you know, we do dinner obviously, but and usually the night before we go to friends of theirs for a Christmas Eve party. But I think it's going to be pretty low key Christmas. I also have not been doing a lot of gift

buying this year. Like Ryan asked me the other day, when you've been Christmas shopping, have you been buying stuff for yourself as well? And I told him, actually, it's more that when I've been buying things for myselves, I'm also trying to Christmas shop in addition to that. Um but I think my rule this year is like in almost except in a few cases, if I'm not seeing you on Christmas. You're not getting a gift good to know, good to know, except for except for you. You are

getting except for me obviously. Um. I was going to ask, Okay, I don't want to make you get into it, obviously because there's so much to say. But you saw Avatar. Oh my god. I did see Avatar on Saturday, Virgins Virgins. We you were reading your survey results. We know that you don't like spoilers or when we like review things too early, So this isn't going to be a review of Avatar. But I have to ask you, Rose, what did you think? It was incredible? It was incredible, show stopping,

never been done before, it was. I loved it. It was so much fun, It was emotional, it was beautiful. It was everything I wanted and more. I think, like, we'll talk about it more in depth once you've seen it, because you do plan to see it, right, Yeah, I will. I will eventually see it. Whenever I pulled pull together the willpower to hold in my piss for three and a half hours. Honestly, is it three it's three hours and ten minutes. Um, I did go he midway through.

I was not gonna you know, James Cameron has given us his blessing. He said, you should go to the to the bathroom during the movies if you have to, And there are many points during the movie where you can just scurry off and piss for a minute or two. It's fine. Um, it's a lot of movie and like,

you know, a lot of movie. I actually have thought before, like I think this would be a really good resource to have, is if someone did like TikTok's where it was like, here's the perfect part in ex popular movie to go to the bathroom. Maybe I'll make that my TikTok Niche like James Cameron actually should have prescribed like there should be like a little ding ding ding on the screen, and it should well because I saw it in three D, although I didn't see it an I'm out, god,

did you know it was? Oh? Actually wait? I did barf the morning after because I went to movies. We saw We saw Avatar eight We saw Avatar eight p m. And I didn't have dinner before and I got a huge I got a huge buget of popcorn, a pepsi and Twizzlers and I ate it all on an empty stomach.

And when I woke up in the morning. I had a hair appointment yesterday morning, and I woke up feeling nauseous, and I was like, no, I had to go sit in like a salon for for three hours, like I can't be sick, And I like, the second I got out of bed, I ran to the bathroom and puked up popcorn, twistlers and PEPSI And then I had to go to a salon and get my hair done for three hours. Oh my god, I was asking that facetious. And then I had to go and then I had to go to to tie his house and eat chili.

Well that sounds like a great post bomb meal, honestly, chili delicious. Yes, um, you're like sure? Um. I started very weird. Maybe it's because we were texting, but I started watching the original Avatar last night. I flicked it on at nine fifty two pm, which was a terrible idea, I mean, but I watched the first third of it. I had forgotten the movie entirely. I've never I've only seen it once in theaters when it came out. Forgot

it entirely. What crazy movie. And the lead, this guy, the lead of this movie, what a nobody he is? What he is truly truly nothing, a nothing character, a nothing role, a nothing actor. Like he adds nothing to the movie. And it's so I don't think. I don't think he adds nothing to the movie. But he's getting to that. He certainly added nothing to the world, like he is not. He was not really in any other

big movies. He was this year in Under the Banner of Heaven, that X show with Andrew Garfield, and he was also a spoiler alert, he was the villain. Um, oh that is a spoiler. He yeah, he's he's whatever. But Avatar, the First Avatar is incredible, one of the best movies ever made James Cameron and is a genius. Um. Speaking of James Cameron, I saw Titannique on Friday Night. Oh, I've heard amazing amazing things. Was it? Was it good? Yeah?

So for anyone who hasn't heard of it. Tight Tannique is an off Broadway show that is basically Titanic the movie as a Celine Dion jukebox musical, and Selene Dion is a character. She is telling the story of Titanic because in the world of this show, she was on the Titanic. Um. So she is so she's telling the story. Um, it's so fun. I have not had that much fun at a show in in a long time. It was we were hooton and holleran. Um, Frankie Grande's in it.

He was, he was good. Frankie Grande's Frankie Grande's in it. He didn't even you know, he was very humble. He did not have his own bow. He bowed with the rest of the ensemble. Wow, that's beautiful. But it was so fun. The actress who played Celine Dion was so amazing. Unfortunately, like, because I'm sure of licensing issues, they couldn't use the big big hits like it's all coming back to me now, wasn't in it? No way. They probably spent all their

money on getting My Heart will go on. Um, But it's full of a lot of like fun pop culture references. Some of them are like a little bit too on the nose, but it is very funny. It's a really good time and if you're in New York um and want just like a super fun, very gay theatrical experience, I would absolutely recommend it. And tickets aren't that expensive.

I think we paid like a hundred bucks. I I mean like I love like a cheap Broadway show or just a Broadway show that's like off Broadway, off Broadway, sorry, home grown, like really trying something really not like un serious,

unafraid to take risks. Um. I know that like eight Normal was revived like this this past week with all this like it organizing and all these like you know, like Black Mafia celebrities that are sponsoring shows and stuff and like between that between like a Noma and Titanic. I have like a slate of things now to and I'm back in New York t technique. It is currently the fifth night of Hanukkah. Happy Hanukah to all who celebrate, and um, we're celebrating today with the help of Jill Goodowitz,

who's here to talk about disobedience with us. Who better to have than Jill honestly author of a Girls Can Kiss Now and one of the most powerful lesbians on the internet. We have to say she moves culture. She influences me. Every day. Tis the season to light the menora, fry up some latcas and spit into your hasidic ex girlfriend's mouth because this is like a virgin the show. Well give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm ros Damo and I'm Fran Toronto and U hala hala, not that

I mean yes that Fran. I do want to kind of let you in since you are you are the virgin to Judaism today is that Hanica is like not a very cool holiday. It's not even like one of the major Jewish holidays, and it's sort of prevalence in culture is like really like an American fabrication to like create like an alt Christmas or like a you know, like a parallel for Christmas. But Monica is like a pretty stupid holiday. Doesn't matter. I'm I'm much more of

a passover girl myself. Um. But one way that is great to celebrate Hanaka is to watch Disobedience That to dozen seventeen films starring the Rachel's, as they know, Rachel Vice and Rachel mc adams. Jill. I wish you could have seen us trying to think of, uh something like we were trying to think of like holiday movies, and then we were like, wait, Jewish holiday movies, like what

do we do? Like what do we do? We were brainstorming for like you know, these upcoming episodes and the way that I brought up Eight Crazy Nights multiple times, and I just like, I feel like I didn't hear it.

It's like, yeah, speaking speaking of my mom last night when she texted me, she was texting me photos and video from our like family hanakka thing of my nephew opening his gifts, and then she started sending me the lyrics to eight Crazy Nights line by line, and I kept saying stop, and I eventually had to put on my do not disturb mode. Um. But for the virgins, if you haven't seen Disobedience, or if you just need a little refresher, Disobedience is a two thousand and seventeen

film directed by directed Sebastian lelo Um. It's based on a book by the same name, and it stars um Rachel Weiss as a former Orthodox Sidic Jewish woman who goes home to her like small insular Hathidic community after her father, who is the community rabbi, dies and there she reunites with her childhood best friend who has married her childhood lesbian lover played by um Rachel mccadams of The Notebook and Mean Girls, and they you know, rekindle their love affair. Um Jill I knowing you. I know

this is a very important film to you. It really is, I mean it is. I think it is like the maybe the one good lesbian movie done by a man, really the only one. I'm trying to think, like when you think of other movies that have like tried to come up against something like Disobedience, what comes to mind? I mean, I like Carol, I do love I stand Carol, but I feel like, you know, like it wasn't made

only by a man. Um and like Imagine Me and You, I would say, is another movie that is like a lesbian movie by a man that's actually kind of good. But the guy who wrote and directed Imagine Me and You also directed Mamma Mia. So like it, so you understand like culturally he gets it clearly? Is Mom and Mia also love hanaka film in a way? Say more? Yes, Yeah, go ahead and elaborate on that road. I'm gonna try to I'm gonna try to see if I can make

you one so three crazy dads. Well, okay, actually I guess Mama Mia would be more of a Christmas film because the three Dads would be the three Wise Men, and Amanda Sayford would be Jesus would be like the Virgin Birth because they never figure out who her dad is. Right, So, okay, Mamma Mia is not a Hottako film, but it is a Christmas film and I will make you watch it one day. Friend. Yeah, I die trying. I've watched like probably parts of it on a plane. No. No, it

doesn't feel like it doesn't count. Also does not count that you've only watched the share parts of Mamma Mia too. You bring it up every time we have this argument, and I won't stand for it. I'm in shop right now, Like I know that that's like the point of the podcast, but the fact that you haven't seen Mommy is honestly shocking to me. I tried. We tried once at my house, right. No, No, we watched. Every time I've tried to get you to watch it, you've said, no, we watched the first minutes.

That's not true. That it's not that's not true, Ellen, I didn't say that. I would never I would never say that. Um, this is this is literally true. Though the virgins have to know that we have literally watched the first they haven't got me, which is really appropriate because um, we're talking about Hanakah, which is the festival of lights. Fran, do you do Fran, do you know the story of Hanukkah. I don't know the story of Hanukkah.

I do know the story of you know, Hasidic Judaism, because I lived in South Williamsburg for four years, five years, Jill, Jill, could you give us like a teal d r of the story of Hanukkah? Honestly, I cannot. I'm like, okay, do we need it. I think it's you know, we need it to understand that. I think it's you know, this is our Hanaka special. I think you know, we should should talk about it. Um. So there were these there were these gays called the Maccabee's, and they there's

something about a temple. The temple was destroyed or something where they built a temple and they only had enough oil um to fuck for one night. Um, because there are a bunch of bottoms and and there was only enough oil um for one night. But then through the magic of Rachel, weis the oil lasted for eight nights. And that's how we have the story of Hanukah, which when you say oil you mean lube, right, yes, I mean and let me be clear, um, Disobedience has nothing

to do with hanukah Um. Really, the only Jewish holiday that is depicted in it at all is Shabbat or shabus Um as we as we call it. But um, I mean, Jill, like what what what about Disobedience do you think is so vanta stick? Even though it was directed by a man? I mean I genuinely think it's hot. Like I like not to get into like the like repression, problematic lesbian repression of it all, but like it is hot, and I do think that they have like good chemistry,

and I do like genuinely like the story. Um, so basically the things that make a movie good in general. But that's like it feels like a low bar. But like when it comes to like lesbian movies, yeah, there aren't that many good ones that fulfill that criteria. Yeah. But also not to get too far ahead, but it unlike most sad lesbian movies. Well, I mean, first of all, it's not a period film, which is great to see, um,

And it has us somewhat hopeful ending. Yeah, and it's like like somewhat somewhat like Carol, Like it's not necessarily a coppy ending, but it's a hopeful one. Yeah, totally. And it's like it's unique, you know, like I feel like a lot of like the lesbian movies, like you said, like there's so many like pure pieces and whatever that like make the movie unique, but also then kind of not because there's so many, and I feel like this is actually just like whether it was a like queer

movie or not, it is like a unique story. Um yeah, I feel like when you when we were when I was watching this, I I was thinking kind of along the same lines because I was like, Okay, this is a movie that's like first and foremost about having brown hair, and and secondly it's as CB has pointed out, and the chat about edging, like the sexual tension in this

film is so good. And I don't know if I just like what because okay, I'm not gonna lie, Like the first like you know, thirty forty minutes are like a little boring before we get to like the hot stuff. But like I don't know if I wasn't paying attention, but like I did not see the Rachel's and their first the first moment that they like kind of kiss. I was like I just remember being like what the fuck?

Because the tension between them was bubbling at such a subtle simmer while the rest of the drama of the film is happening around them that I was like focused on the drama and not on like what was like actually sparking. Um. So, I don't know. I think that like the ways that they cannot satisfy each other, the ways that they couldn't touch each other for so long, was like a big part of why the lust in

this movie is like so satisfying. And like the spin scene, obviously all the different things that like make this movie really memorable are around, like the sex. Well, it's like they can't they can't even acknowledge it. And and I mean I don't think that the first forty minutes of the film aren't boring. I actually think the tension is so interesting, and I think you have to understand Ronete rachel Weiss's character and how she's left and what it's

like for her to come back. And I think this film is so good at showing rather than telling, like so much as communicated without any one ever talking about it. And those moments where the tension bubbles over, Like I think about the scene where they're all having dinner and she's like, I want to sell the house and they're like, we'll talk about it later. We'll talk about it later.

And it's such a Jewish thing. It is. The guilt dripping from this film is like, I mean, this is such a Jewish movie in addition to being such a game movie. It really in addition to being an extremely you know, burnette movie, which has to be said again, and the British movie. And even though Rachel mccadam's British accent is not great because there I guess I wasn't

focused on it. Did any of y'all Did either of you read the book, the Disobedience book that it's based on, so I was apparently they changed it a lot, and I mean not surprising, but like the ending of the book is like pretty sad not to jump right to the ending, but like they she basically decides to stay in the community, and it's like she's like, I'm happier here, this is my life, and you know, so be it.

I mean, unfortunately that's probably a more realisticalistic and um because I I can't imagine what it's like to be in that sort of like fundamentalist environment and break away from it like obviously, like we see a person who's done that in in Rachel Vice's character, um, and it kind of seems like she escaped the absolute moment she could. But I imagine like once you have lived like the majority of your life and like not only your adolescents, but like your adult life in a community like that,

it must be almost impossible to leave. It did make me think of, um, my unorthors wait for Netflix reality show for the Virgin's Jail. Can you break it down that my unorthodox life? Oh my god, ken I I'm like so. Julia Hart is a c e O who got out of the Orthodox community and is now like living in New York with in like a very like bougie life, and her kids are kind of like some of that. In the first season, some of them were like out and like happy and like you know, to

be out and whatever. Some were like out but still kind of like conservative. And one of her youngest child is like still actually in the community living with her X and like, uh kind of kind of like can't get him out, like he is really starting to believe in all of it, and like the same kind of stuff we were just talking about. But one of the daughters. Miriam is like an out bisexual, horny queen. Um we do, yeah, we have you Rose. Have you started watching the second season?

I have not, and I know that a lot has transpired because wasn't there like a whole scandal with her husband. Yes, well I've only watched the first episode, so I haven't really like gotten into it, but I know that, um, you know, like bought Cheva, the other daughter, she's like fully like she's gone full influencer. Her and her husband, who was like a little bit more conservative, like have broken up and she is just like out there living her like Bravo girl life. Well she got the taste

of fame. So that makes a lot of sense. It also makes sense, you know, not to get to like serious, but it does, you know, makes sense that of all of Julia's children, the one who is still like deeply invested in the community is the boy. Because like it's a culture that you know, um, women as lesser and like literally like separates and segregates them. Yeah, the men's day winning. Yes, as you know, as we see in Disobedience, like, um, when they go to school, Um, you know, the men

and the women are kept separately. The women sit in a different part of the synagogue. You know, women have to wear wigs all the time and like be like totally bundled up and like can only show their bodies to their husbands and are like literally just there to like roll their little like wheeled backpacks around and they three, they're a little wheeled back. I think one of my favorite moments in this movie, and I think the best line is when Rachel Vice asked Rachel McAdams, do you

still only fancy women? And she gives for that sort of like look like and because like looks from like underhrise and like yes, and it's very It's it's very like thor thor going do you want to form a yes? It is? Yeah. I love it. I honestly like watching it made me want to read the book a little

more because apparently it's the book. The story is like really autobiographical, like the author like went through this thing and is Rachel weis Um And each chapter has like a kind of like opening like kind of teaching or like scripture specifically from Um you know, Judaism and like or like from the Orthodox Church and and the way that they created like alignments about like love was like

part of like how the story came together. But like I I personally just think that like whenever I watched things like this where um kind of cultish or like weird religion, weird like religious like forces are the thing you're up against. Like I honestly always get really invested in the world, Like did you ever this is like a stupid reference. Did you guys ever read the Poison?

Would Bible the barbecan rose? You would love that? But that one's more about like Baptist like missionary culture and stuff like that, but like weird culti religious like kind of things that like service backdrops for stories like this, And I'm like always like immediately hooked. It is fascinating. But I also just like I can't conceptualize of believing in God like that. But I also that, Yeah, but I also know that for a lot of people, like even if they tell themselves, even if even if they

tell themselves, that's what it's about. Like it's not necessarily really about that. It's like about community, it's about structure, it's about tradition. I mean even like even as a very reformed Jewish person, like my Judaism is so much more like cultural than it is religious. And I think for most people in my family, um, And like I get that there is a comfort in that and in safety and that. And you see a lot of these socidic communities like they're so insular. You know, you have

a similar experience of Judaism, I really do. I mean, like I when I was younger, like when I was like a kid, my grandparents definitely were like more invested than my parents were, and they didn't really like care or like push us to like you know whatever. But like we when my grandparents were like super around, we

went to Temple a lot. And I did like resent it a lot, even from a young age, because there was like just like the stuff, you know, like of like my grandma being like you have to wear a dress and like tights and like the pretty shoes and like I just like there was just like some like gender stuff going for me, like at a very early age where I was like I don't like this, and I associated all of that with Temple, you know, because it was like I only had to dress up like

that when I went to Temple and I hated it. Um. And I think that like I was never bought mitzvohed Um, like I really came to like resent it. I also was raised in like a really um Catholic high school, like not like a Catholic school, but like everyone in the school was Catholic or Christian. They were like I think,

like ten Jews in the school. And so I think that like it made me always feel there's something about Judaism that like in numerous ways made me feel isolated, and none of it was actually Judaism's fault necessarily, um, and I think that I like very much, uh you know, trying to like leave it behind and only in the last you know, i'd say, like five years, I feel like I have like found a new like adult appreciation for like cultural Judaism, and like I feel really like

strongly connected to other people who have had like similar upbringings and are like from like you know, Jewish Brooklyn, like anything that like feels like what it felt like

when I was a kid. I'm now kind of like picking and choosing the stuff that does feel good, you know, and like I totally get what you mean about, like especially about like the way that being Jewish like in a predominantly Christian country, which is the one we live in like is isolating, and so it does make me understand why there are communities that like are so insular, because they're like it's like almost a reaction to that.

UM And I also have kind of had the same experience where like, I like I grew up I mean pretty like we didn't go to temple that often, but like I did go to Hebrew School. My mom worked at the at the temple I went to when I was little. For a little bit, I did have a bar mitzvah. The theme was Broadway obviously. UM. And when I got older, you know, I like totally rejected it. I like I have not been in its inside a temple in a long time. I think probably since my

brother's wedding. I don't like I don't have a minora. I didn't like the candles last night for Hankka. But I like I do find comfort in, you know, the rituals of it all, Like I do. I do still like you know, like eating a lot because during Hanukkah, or like getting like getting holla during Russia Shanna and dipping it in honey. I can't do apples, sim allergic to them. Um. I like being around the people I

love during the Jewish holidays. I do like the you know, like the Passover story and like doing some kind of like makeshift meal or in place of a satyr um. And you're totally right. It's like there is a lot of comfort in people who have had the same kind of um like cultural experiences as you and I do like feel some sort of kinship, especially with queer Jewish people, as long as they're not like taking it a little

too seriously. Yeah, totally. And yeah, I would say like if there's one thing that I would like to like take from Judaism or culture, like cultural Judaism and like you know, own it in my own life is like the gathering with a meal, you know what I mean, Like even if it's like in every Sunday you know, bagels and locks like whatever, Like, well, Judaism is about food.

Like let's be clear, period, Judaism is about Judaism is about sharing food eating and it's like and it's fun and this is crazy feels good to like gather with a bunch of people and cook. It's crazy people have been doing this forever and it still feels good. Um And like yeah, I've like you know, other like queer

Jewish friends. Like we've even gotten together and like done that where it's like you know, pass over a russiashana and just like made a lot goods in like in an air fryer or like just you know kind of like created our own little rituals and like that stuff feels good to me. Um. And also though it's such an annoying process because it's so much fucking preparation. I ate them last night. Are you jealous? I'm so jealous.

I do have a package of frozen Trader Joe's Law because in my freezer that I would help me to those kind of go off. They do off have an air frier, so I'm gonna just pop them in there, have them with some apple sauce and sour cream, and um, live my life. It really is, to the to your point, Jill, like a kind of like queer like generational thing that happens with people that like used to be religious or had religious families, because like we have these like deep

and stated like aversions to whatever it is. The thing is because of like skirts and tights like you said, are like me, it's like these these like you know, disgusting like air apostle, like you know, short sleeve polos or like button downs that I like hated, like like khakis that I got from coals that are like I hate and like they look horrible or whatever, um or the other things that are because like also like just church is boring, Like let's let's say that it's not

churches boring objectively, and when you are eight, it's even more boring and like borderline impossible to pay attention to. So why are children subjected to this thing? Um? Anyway, I used to sneak I used to sneak a book in and put it in my um in my prayer book to to read, like so I could pretend and then I would just like stand up when we had to stand up. It was like secretly sitting there like

reading Harry Potter or whatever. Literally same I would get in trouble though, like I would read like Garfield comics

and stuff like that. Yeah, but I but my point is is like I feel like, you know, we have this like childhood that's like dripping with religion or like you know, we have these divergence to religion and then when we have our own autonomy, were like this fucking sucks like fuck you religion, you never and then like four or five years later we're like, oh, like I still need to make a meaning of the world, and and like want like community and like maybe a little

spirituality to maybe a little you know, mysticism or something. And and we kind of like seek back, which is why like astrology is popular now and like things like that where it's like we feel or rather what I've said this before, like I'm feeling like the God shaped hole in my life with like thinks like you know, just the leftover parts of the religion or traditions that I like actually like, well, there's a difference between religion and spirituality, and I think so many of us like

like the spirituality part of it. Like I even as a kid, like I was interested in the sort of mysticism of Judaism, and I found a lot of the ritual beautiful. Um yeah, like Elijah like um, you know, like the the stories of in the you know, in the Torah or whatever, and um. But yeah, yeah, I think there is like the God shaped hole, like we have found things to fill it with, whether they're you know, astrology or partying or Rachel visus spit. Can we talk

about the spit. We actually am not sure if I've ever seen you know, spit on. I can't recall like a kind of spit like moment in any other movie. I didn't realize rewatching it that it doesn't only happen once, it's multiple times. It's a it's like lengthy sequence and a lengthy kind of and it's spit. It's yeah, and it's like it's like a dribble to you know, like it's like it's kind of like l it's not like a like hot kind of like like aggressive like hawk like,

it's like it's very it's very sexual. It's really it's like you have to really like spit to get into a like a slow dribble into and like she really like drinks it up. But it's well, I think it's I think it's purposely supposed to feel religious, like it's supposed to look it's supposed to stand in for kind of religious sacrament. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's it's like baptized with rachel issis spit. I mean, it's a baptism that's that's Christian. But it's like, you know, it's like drinking

the wine you know on shop bet or some or something. Um, would you let Rachel Vice spit in your mouth? Yes, I'm not even like a spit girl actually, to be honest, but if it was Rachel, I have, like I have like a thing with like um specifically like mouth and noises, like like people chewing like really like like Fox with me um. So I'm not Phoebe producer as well. She I mean she threatened us at the beginning. She threatened

me at the beginning of this episode. Yeah, no, I like there's some like mouth stuff that I'm like not fully on board. Like I think that like certain spitting scenarios can be hot that specific one of the slowness of it and like the fact that you can see that like it's really the exchange of the juices that it feels good for them and like that that doesn't resonate for me. And let me tell you that spit dribble is going in so slow it's cold by the

time your mouth it's cold. Yeah, I would prefer like a fast spit, but I'm not, Like, I'm not a spit girl, like we Rose and I have talked about this on the pod before, but like I I definitely someone who I'm never the spitter. I'm always getting spat on and I don't know how spitters find me, but they do. And I'm like, Okay, yes, spit on me whatever way you want. But like then we get to

do the things that I want to do. But like it does it is interesting that you know, the man who directed this, I don't know, Like I don't even care about like looking into him or like what his

intentions were as a director. But like, but like if you're gonna fabricate this spit thing, which I wonder if it's in the book, probably not, you know, there's a kind of humiliation kink thing going on or like he was trying to figure he was trying to just as you were saying, like metaphorize this spit thing to be like, oh this is like about her as a person or something. It was just I don't think it. I don't see it as humiliating, like like it's I think it's like

a gift that she's giving her right. No, I mean, I I'm not trying to say like like humiliation core kink, but like spit in kink or in sexuality has the association of degradation. And I was like wondering if that, I think. I think it depends on your kink, because like I am someone who, like I do engage and spit play a little, and I would say most of the time the person being spout on or in is like begging for it, and it's really it really is

like a gift you are giving them. And I think that is at least when I watched the film, That's how I read it is that Rachel McAdams is so obsessed with Rachel Vice that she wants literally any part of her she can get. She she wants to take her inside her body in one of she can. Yeah, I know, I agree. I agree. I think that like, like friend, I see what you're saying about the humiliation stuff, but I think that like it's like a there is

like a vulnerability, like an exchange of vulnerability. I think Rachel mcadam's character is like at her most vulnerable there and I think that it could go that route. But I do think that like, yeah, it's like a gift. That's like Rachel Vice is like giving her this like tender dribble into her mouth. Yeah your um, yeah, Like it's like it's I think it's like Rachel Vice's character knows how like intense and vul holnerable that moment is for her partner, and so I think it wouldn't make

sense if it was like really a hawk. You know, it really makes sense for were We should talk for forty more minutes about this analyze. Absolutely, You're so right about the vulnerability though, because like so much of what Rachel McAdams has to do in this movie is, you know, she to be with Rachel Weiss, she has to like lose all of this armor she has um armed herself with UM to like move about in the world, like

you know, like the clothing, like the wig. I mean when she takes the wig, Like every time she takes the wig off of this movie is a gay And somehow her hair still looks amazing underneath it. I don't know how how she does it. It's that little like short Bob, I don't know, it stays intact. It looks great. Yeah, I mean, she's so vulnerable in this movie, and you know,

by the end of it. And I also love how the dynamic between the three of them because we're meant to understand that Um, Rachel, Rachel and the guy UM were very close friends growing up and I like that at that as the movie ends, and you know, he realizes that they have like restarted their love affair and

that Rachel McAdams is pregnant. There's not like what I guess we would expect in a movie like this of some huge like blow up scene where you know, he screams and like there's all this like shame being bandied around. It all happens like very matter of fact Lee, and it even ends with him, you know, like giving Rachel McAdams his blessing to be free, like in front of their entire congregation. And I really like that those characters feel so lived in and really seemed like they understand

each other. Just a really well made movie that dynamic of like the trio is so good and doesn't happen

a lot. I mean, I think like in real life or in movies like where you get to see basically the man who feels affronted by the lesbianism um like like sucking hard, but you can see that he has the capacity to become violently angry about it and then kind of like takes it in processes and gives his blessing and like it's yeah, it's it's the best case scenario, I think for a setting like this, because he's also always known because we like find out through the course

of the movie that they were in love when they were teenagers, and even we're walked in on by Ronite's father, the Rabbi, which I mean that how many times has rachelis played a lesbian like multiple? Two? Only two? I think only two, only two? And I did when I interviewed her for The Favorite, I asked her kiss her, asked her who is a better kisser, Rachel mcadam's or Olivia Coleman, And she said she couldn't pick one. How could she? It's gotta be Olivia Coleman totally, It's got

to be. I mean a blessing to participate in either couple. But wow, I mean the Favorite. I mean, we could do it a whole other episode on the Favorite, but like, wow, we could and probably will at some point. Um. I also loved the use of music in this movie with

the Cure. Um. I loved like that was kind of the way that they like almost broke the tension between them when they were in Rene's father house by listening to The Cure and then it played again over the credits at the end, it was such a like lovely little touch. I love it. It's like the muscle memory they like they play the song that they clearly listened to together and then when they fucked, when now we have to fuck, Like but it's also such like a it's not even like a let's fuck. It's like a

like such a tender reminder. How many times can I describe their relationship as tender? On this episode? I want about tenderness and also about coldness. Like it's a very bleak film and it's color palette in, you know, the kind of sparseness of the language, but then it makes that's what makes those moments where it becomes extremely like

passionate and tender even more startling. Yeah, and the war exactly. Yeah. Yeah, Like the tenderness is like so much like the tenderness is the thing you focus on because both of these characters are like dead inside before they're reunited. Like Rachel Weiss has like back in her New York life, Like there's this montage that like shows that like she is not feeling or doing amazing or she's just kind of

floating through life. And obviously Rachel mcadam's character is like not doing great either, and they both kind of like reinvigorate each other. And that is what like love feels like. You know, like I think a lot of the time when you're it just feels like a like a reunion and you're like, oh my god, are all of my woes and sorrows like gone? And they're not. They're just like I don't know, it seems like she has a pretty nice life. She's like photographing like old tattooed men

and hooking up with guys and bars. Yeah, I mean I thought that the sequence where she's like hooking up with the guys and bars was supposed to be I thought that that because it showed like her hooking up with guys and then like doing like boring work or something. It was like this montage to me that was like trying to paint like the monotony of her life or like or like the fact that she was floating through it.

But maybe I was reading too hard into that. Well, that's also that also comes after she finds out her father's dead, and I think that it's supposed to like show that she's trying to go emotions of her life as if her father dying hasn't impacted her, right, it really has right, right? Right? Right? Right? Yeah? Yeah, I think like the the I think it's supposed to show that she has like a big life back in back in the big city. Um. But yeah, I think like the hooking up with a guy in the bar is

kind of like a dark scene where she's like spiraling. Um. And but I don't know, it's I guess it's hard to say because we we really don't see that much of her life before we go um to England. Um. If her photographs are good, yeah, we never get to see the book, the photography book. Do you think she's big on Instagram? No? I think she's like an art bitch and like pretentious and like won't touch social media. Yeah.

So what do you think if you had to write like the sequel or like the fan fiction, like what do you think happens after the end of the movie Disobedience to Here we Go Again? It also features share yeah as as her mom. Of course what happens? I think Disobedience to follows Unfortunately, don't think Rachel vices in it.

I think it's like Rachel McAdams, Um, she moves to California and it starts like her own journey and meets that porter and no, I don't know, I think, but I think that it would be like her story, you know, yeah, because I don't. I do think that, like what we're meant to understand by the end of the film is that Rachel McAdams has to figure out her next step herself.

And like even though Rachel offers offers like that she can come live with her, like that's not it's not really escaping anything, and she has to like follow her own path. I think she becomes like a mom in a mom fluencer um and she makes a TikTok that's all about how she like escaped you know, fundamentalism and like totally monetizes the experience evidently in California, which is going to be really hard for her to navigate, you know, the insular Hollywood lesbian scene in l A. I think

that she would have a hard time here. Yeah, I think that it would be really hard to go from her life there and and Rachel vice and come here and go to like the abbey or chapel on like

Wednesday night. Feel like that's what I'm that Like, Okay, like this is what I left my home and family for a lot of backwards hats, like a lot of Yeah, maybe she would, maybe she would catch the eye of like you know, a Christian Stewart type and then not at the abbey ab but you know, she like she meets someone and like gets invited to some sort of like you know, fancy party in the hills and then meets a lesbian and becomes part of a you know,

a lesbian power couple. Yeah. I want her to have like a like Princess Diaries kind of sequel where she like a Cinderella story, you know, where she finds the queen of the lesbians and is like, you know, gets this like great, exactly, Yeah, okay, make over makeupver Montage, make over Montage at you know, the Army Surplus store, at the at the at the dog Martin store or

maybe Okay. So she meets Olivia Coleman, who's like a lesbian, like you know, like the most powerful lesbian, and turns out Coleman is like escaped Mormonism, so she's also an ex fundamentalist and they bond over that. And she used to be on Real Housewives with Salt Lake City. Oh, Merrit and she is Merideth playing who I've always thought is Meredith Mars. There's one of them that looks a lot like Rachel Weiss in a weird way. I think it's Meredith. It is Meredith yet, yeah, so that makes sense.

She leaves, oh my god, with another Rachel Vice type, but an older Rachel Weiss type. It's the beginning of the movie is Rachel mcadam's hooking up with like like many people in a row, and they all have like shoulder length brown hair. Yeah, it's still a brunette story. Oh my god, Rachel Rachel Viss's hair in this movie, I mean in every movie, obviously Magnet, especially in this film.

It's just this incredible mane of touseled dark locks, and she's never wearing a hat, even though it looks really fucking cold outside. She refuses. I think the darkest moment of the movie is when she puts on the wig, because it's like no, no, no no, no, we need the hair, like please, oh my god, forgot him her putting on the wig. It's so funny. And then she gets recognized by by Rachel McAdams right or and then she takes it off. Have you ever worn one of those wigs,

because I have you have I have yet? Can you tell us the story like how it was for it was for um bush Wig. One year I did a performance in which I was playing a Hosidic woman. You did performance from and from and from Yes, from which is from which is a term. I don't think I knew either before Disobedience, but I guess it's like, you know, being being as like hassidically female as possible, like with the rolling backpack and the wig and the like the

like MAXI skirt. Yeah, I UM was watching this movie and thinking a lot about like you know, hometown loves or like rekindling childhood flames or whatever, and I'm wondering, like do y'all have like you know like I was. I was like thinking of Shiva Baby when I was watching this, and like movies like that, we're like where you have an old flame, another great queer Jewish fellow.

I wish. I mean, I feel like I've said this so many times in my life that I I was like the kind of queer person who was so repressed that I like really didn't even like admit it to myself or no, until my early twenties and then like didn't kiss a girl until I was twenty three. Um, and I whenever I watched like this is fucked up.

I know this is fucked up to say, but like when I watched like these repression stories about like a hometown love or whatever, I'm like, I wish I had like a repressed hometown love, which like I which like I kind of when you watch shows about queer teens like falling in love, you're like you, yeah, I was really not doing that. No, Like I really do in a way wish that I knew what it was like to be like sixteen and like in love with a

girl and like couldn't tell anyone. But also like knowing the environment I grew up and I think it would have been um really really scary, Like I think my life could have taken a dark turn. Um. Phoebe wants to know if any of us have read Milk Fed by Marissa Broder. I I've seen all of our book talk. Yes, wait what what is it? Yeah? No, this is like also like within the Shiva Baby Disobedience can and like a queer kind of like quirky Jewish love story. Um,

it's like I don't. It's I like it, but it's not. It's not my favorite. But um it's like, how do I even explain it. It's like a girl, um who I think works at a talent agency in l a and like because it kind of has a lot of like like food and like body stuff, meets this girl who works in a froyo store. Um who she is? That what it's called a froio store? Um who right? Exactly? Who she like becomes like kind of like sexually obsessed with.

And that girl is a has like not not quite like a full Orthodox family, I don't think so, but like like a really like uh definitely like conservative Orthodox leaning family. And she goes in, she the girl, the main girl that goes in, has dinner with them, and like is gets into it about Israel and Palestine, and

I don't know. It's like I definitely think it's like an interesting worthy read and it's pretty funny, but um, yeah, I honestly, I mean the fact that she works at a fio store is that is that I call that hyper realism. That is truly I feel like I know so many people from childhood that worked at at at fio joints. There was this um, this ice cream store called Oberweise in my hometown that everyone wanted to work for. And I remember going to apply and the manager was like, oh,

do you have any qualifications? I was like no, this being my first job, and he's like okay, and he like pulls out that like stack of like a hundred applications from like other fourteen year olds to prioritize over mine. He got your ass, Yeah, he really did. He was like, good luck, um, But yeah, I I honestly so I fell in love with when I was like around seventeen or so with my first boyfriend in a very suburban, you know, part of Chicago, And I honestly would would

love to write that story. I think that likes there's something about I know that everyone's doing like everyone does like repressed career love stories. But also on that note, like I would watch Mormon disobedience like that needs to be a thing. Well that's almost that. That's that's there's there's like a whole porn category of that, right, But

you know, famously not not very narrative driven. I mean, for you it is because you love the narrative of Yeah, that's all I care about Um, you if you went home, do you think you would reunite with your your high school lover? No, he ended up being like a total dirt bag. Um, but never say never, never say never exactly. And I think you can find your way back to each other. And you could spit in him. Yeah, I could spit in him. Um we did meet at boy

Scout camp, another another fundamentalist organization. Yeah, yeah, it's all full circle. Absolutely absolutely. I think you should. I would watch, and I think you should write it, and I think I feel like I feel like I have maybe a contentious opinion on this because I know that like so many like teens in gen Z and like whatever, not just I mean not just the youths, but you know, say like no more repression stories or stories about coming

out and like whatever. And it's like, for I would say most of the queer people that are alive, those stories really still resonate and still define a lot of people's lives. And the you know, like the Disobedience and Carols of the world. Um, they fucking are hitting, you know what I mean, they hit And like I would watch, like I I really like those movies. I find them to be really hot. Unfortunately, like maybe something to break

down in my in a therapy session. But also and also very true, like yes, it's that we that there's a whole generation of queer kids who are like finding it easier to come out and like quote unquote live authentically or whatever. But for a lot of a lot of people around the world, Um, they still can't do that safely. And a lot of us you know, grew up with without having that experience. And so I think there is still a lot of power in those stories

and they are still really hot. They're hot. We need more hot elder millennial repressed. That's the thing though, is like the thing when when people are no more repression stories or whatever, which I've probably said before, like really like I've probably said it before, but like that's just you know, the experienced poisoning effect of like you know, internet, the internet and discourse and like and I feel like, um, what we're really saying to your point, Jill, is like,

can you just tell the stories better? Like because no one's complaining about Carol, no one, we would that that movie is so perfect. So we're going to write a Hanukkah movie about some kind of you know, queer trends repression, m Jill. You will direct it, Oh my god, Yes, and it's gonna be great. It's gonna win an oscar in seven and we're going to It's gonna take us some time to develop, and the fourteen year olds are

going to run us off social media. Yeah. Absolutely, We're all going to be dead and can yeah exiled like Rachel Weiss slide into our d M s at Like a Virgin. Fore tell us if you would let Rachel Vice spit in your mouth what your favorite Hanko tradition is. Whatever. Next week we'll be back with the best of two thousand two episode, going through all of the things we loved this year and very few of the things we didn't love that I really liked that we did not

get negative. As always, please like and subscribe, rate us on Spotify, leave us reviews on Apple Podcasts. It helps us out so much. I'm your co host, Rose Damn You. You can find me anywhere online at Rose Damn You, and you can find me at France, squishco anywhere you like. Like a Virgin is an iHeart Radio production. Our producers Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Cranechurch and Nikki Etur Until next week. Hogsama Virgins has a tast