This Is Bisexual Culture

took another look back at this piece of media. This is something that has already been given this you know, broader cultural reassessment, um. And that is Jennifer's Body, you know, the Diabolo Cody film starring Nick and Fox and Amanda Seyfrid. And we're going to talk a lot about it's played some pop culture when it came out, why it was so you know, maligned and misunderstood, and I guess off screen controversy that like maybe made the film less successful

than it could have been. And we also talked about that lesbian kiss and of course, yeah, and how it's been you know, reclaimed and reassessed through a contemporary lens, because this is like a Virgin, the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm most am you and I'm fran Toronto Virgins. If you follow us on Instagram at like a Virgin, you will know that we did ask your opinion on what films and spooky themes we should talk about this month. You also should know

that we just fully disregarded all of your suggestions. Yeah, sorry, but you're not going to be disappointed with what we chose instead. No, we were trying to account for one past episode and the episode we decided to do. Well. This is the last episode of series, but the last episode we are recording, um and the one that we're filling is for Jennifer's Body, which deserves to be discussed. You know, it is a cult classic. It really has been you know, reclaimed in recent years as you know,

part of Queer Girl canon. I think it also reverses something in a quintessential like a version analysis, which is that the you know a lot of times we watch our read or look at things and it's like this thing was very relevant then and it's like a little less relevant now, and now we're consuming something that was like at the time critically panned or had a lot of controversy or like negative criticism around it, and now um people are thinking that it was maybe more ahead

of its time, very ahead of its time for the Virgins. Jennifer's Body is a two nine film written by Diablo Cody about need Liz Nikki and her best friend Jennifer check Um. They are besties living in you know, like this ass backwards town and a emo band fronted by Adam Brody of the O C Fame visits their town and he and his bandmates, because they want to become famous, sacrifice Jennifer as part of a satanic ritual because they think she's a virgin. But she's not a virgin. So

the ritual goes wrong and she becomes a demon. She becomes a succubus, and she starts feeding off of not people. She specifies she's not killing people, she's killing boys, so she starts seducing and then eating these boys who make her powerful. Needy knows what's going on, UM, and you know, UH is not going to let Jennifer you know, kill

these boys, even though we'll get to this later. I think she should have Um and the the movie ends spoiler alert with Needy killing Jennifer and winding up in prison, but then she escapes at the end of the film and goes to exact revenge on the band. Um. The movie stars Amanda Cyfred is Needy, Megan Fox as Jennifer.

It is iconic in many ways. Um, something that should be said is like that that Needy is kind of like this nerd, which like lalad Amanda Cyford like playing a nerd, like she's she's so beautiful, She's so beautiful, like there's no world she would ever fall into that like category. But I don't know that she's a nerd as much as she's a horse girl. She's a horse girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's there is always that really beautiful but just weird girl in school who has hair as long as Amanda

Cyford's hair is. It's it's just silly, but it but it um the movie in general is actually playing into tropes that we might find in like an after school special. Like it has that kind kind of pulpy like after school special quality to it that is very aware of itself.

And so Jennifer is like this liberated hot like slut who Needy almost um well actually no, definitely looks up to like at the beginning, at least at the beginning of the movie, like she sees her as this pinnacle of like sexual liberation that she doesn't quite have access to yet. And I do think that the way Diablo Cody wrote this movie, it like champions the like kind of high school drama component of it as much as it champions the horror um so it blends those together.

I mean, the opening line of the film is Hell is a teenage girl, which you know, I think it's interesting for me to look back on this is you know, I was never a teenage girl. So I don't know how true that statement is. I can imagine it is very true, and I think I've consumed enough media to know that that it is. And you know, that statement is proven by the way that this film was received.

So I do want to talk a little bit about the context of when this movie is released, because I think it says a lot about the way it was received. So this movie came out in two thousand nine. It's written by Diablo Cody, who was fresh off of the incredible surprising success of Juno Um, winning the Oscar for the screenplay and nominated for Best Picture. Probably probably were you a Juno head? I loved the movie, Yeah, I

you know kim Yall Dawson and soundtrack. I definitely. Um. I don't know if I was like a Juno stand but I did watch the movie over and over again and love the soundtrack. And I wanted to be Diablo Coody like I wanted to write something quirky and indie like her. Yeah. The movie was directed by Karen kusama Um who directed Girl Fight a on Flux a couple

of years ago. She directed that movie Destroyer with Nicole Kidman with the wig um oh my gosh, and yeah, and Megan Fox was fresh off of the Transformer sequel. Amanda Seyfrid was fresh off of Mamma Mia. So you look at this film and it's all of these women who are really at that peak in many ways of their fame, and so it had all of the ingredients to be this really successful film, and it was a huge flop um both commercially and critically. It only made

it made like barely twice it's budget. It currently has a fort on Rotten Tomatoes, which I think that's crazy that it hasn't gotten bumped up by you know, the all of the people who still love it and the way it's been you know, sort of reassessed today. But I think it's very telling of where we were in pop culture in two thousand nine. So you have to think about and we we've talked a little bit about this before in our Twilight episode. Two thousand nine was

like peak Twilight Mania. So we're at this time and yeah, we're at this time in culture where no one in pop culture is more hated than the teenage girl. You know, um, so hell is a teenage girl. It was a time when there was all of this real anger and uh, misogyny, misogyny at work because teenage girls had proven their capitalistic power to control media, um and to prop up the things that they were interested in, and so because of that,

they became the butt of every joke. You know. It was just a time when if a teenage girl liked something, then that was just all the more reason for people to hate it and to hate teenage girls themselves. So it's no surprise that this film, which is about teenage girls, was I'm sure marketed to them, uh, was you know, critically panned and was a huge flop. Well what's actually, um, I was reading a little bit and prep for this episode.

I was reading about like the runway to the movie and and how that kind of teenage girl thing came into fold and I you know, they greenlit this movie and you know paid for it, um right after Juno, just as you said, and um, and when it was announced, like nothing's even in production. When it was announced, people were protesting it because by then people already had a problem with I guess like Diablo Cody, you know, succeeding

as a woman. But also just like the conceit of it was like for some reason offensive to like certain classes of people, which is insane. Um. But that is just your as you're saying, the kind of white hot heat that was on Diablo Cody at the time. But I think that in you know, recent interviews and when this movie is being looked at retrospectively, which it is, you know a lot, especially last I want to say, last year, like Megan Fox had a little bit of

a comeback. Megan Fox had her you know resurgence into pop culture. Um. There were a lot of the younger generation of celebrities we have now, um directly referencing Jennifer's body, like Olivia Rodrigo and her Good for You music video like is very obviously referencing Jennifer's body. So last year was was a big moment for you know, reclaiming this film,

especially among queer women. Um and I think both young queer women and also the queer women who probably loved this film when it first came out, you know the way that I did, exactly, But um, what what's interesting about your Like the way you were thinking about, like how this movie is for teenage girls is exactly correct,

but that's not how the movie was marketed. So Diablo Cody and Karen Kusama went up against like the kind of powers that be about how the film were to be marketed, and they just like would not hear them. They were like, no, this movie is for teen boys because their horny period, Like we're not doing anything outside of that, and the movie I feel maybe didn't find it's real audience, um, because there was this kind of patent refusal to like see teenage girls as a viable

audience for horror. Um. And so there was actually this really funny moment in one of the interviews with Diablo Cody I was reading wherein they were being presented a very like misogynist ad um fixating on Jennifer's hotness, which was kind of like the definitely the trailer, which she also hated, like definitely the marketing plan like Megan Fox being hot is like obviously was a part of the

pr plan um. And Cody like you know, replied to the email and was like, hey, can you like clarify like why you think this is like good for the movie or like what you think this this will do for the movie? And the email they got in response,

Cody said, was Jennifer sexy. She steal your boyfriend, like fully, not a full sentence, like not even grammatically correct, like she said, it was as if a caveman had written it, and that was like what she was up against, trying to help the film find its audience, which it maybe didn't until later years. Yeah, and you know, watching it again because I watched it last night preparing for this, it's directly at odds with the actual product because I every time I revisit this movie, I'm like, am I

am I like misremembering it? Am I remembering it as being more for women than it actually was? And I'm not because it really is. This movie is one of the best examples of the female gays in film I've ever seen, like down to the literal gaze of the camera. You know, I think the most iconic image of this movie is Megan Fox swimming in the lake after she's eating her first victim. You know, that's like the reference

that Olivia Rodrigo pulled. And in a movie that was directed by a man, when Jennifer gets out of the water, you know, the camera would have lingered on like her back and her as the parts that they think men want to see. But then the way that it's shot in this movie is she gets out of the water and it's her wringing her hair out and very simple. It's it's just like it's so obviously the gaze of

a woman. And even in the scene where Needy and Jennifer kiss later in the film, it's not exploitative in a way that I think a movie made by a male director would be. The shot is so close on their lips. It's such a hot but it's for like all genders, like it's everybody, but it also is very fem It's the gaze is on their lips, it's on the tenderness and the intimacy and it's sticky and sweet

and intense, but not like pornographic at any point. Like I was kind of I want to get your take on that scene in general, like how you felt about it. I when I was reading about this, people took huge issue with the fact that there was a makeout scene, Like queer people were like, this is exploitative and like or like this is like so gratuitous or whatever, or maybe like it was more like feminist critiques. We're like, this is so for the male gaze. Like I didn't

feel that was true at all. No, I think that's misogyny. I think it's misogyny to think that a movie written by, directed by, and starring women could not include a very like honest depiction of teen queer sexuality. Like I think it's so believable that these girls are obsessed with each other in a way that includes being sexually interested in each other, and of course that would come out as a kiss, like it's hammered in so often in this movie that Needy is the one exception to Jennifer's you

know evil. When she first becomes a demon, she goes immediately to Needy. She doesn't hurt her because she loves her, and so of course there is an undercurrent of that being sexual attraction. And yeah, I absolutely believe that they would make out. I actually would believe that they've made out before. Yeah. I actually would be mad if they hadn't made out. I know, That's all she said. Well, she even says, like, um, let's play we can play

a boyfriend girlfriend like we used to. Yes, exactly, Like the infatuation is there, and also like there through the whole movie, it's not unearned at all. And also it makes sense plot wise because you know, Jennifer seduces her victims, like and so this is when they were kissing, you have these little alarm bells going off. You're like, oh no, no, this means that she's gonna die. Like it also has

a kind of functioning foreshadow. Um as much as it, you know, was just earned in the emotional intimacy of the characters. And it's so good and it's it's this is bisexual culture, you know, and she's by like the character I think that Jennifer is by she kind of she literally says when when they're in the pool, the pool scene, she says, I thought you only killed boys I swing both ways. It's supposed to be explicitly bisexual, and I think at the time in two thousand nine,

people were like, well, that's just a joke. It wasn't a joke. Oh, it's like why would you write it. At the time of like Juno, like they were making jokes about Diablo Cody on like Family Guy, you know what I mean, Like she became Diablo Cody's whole sensibility.

I think with Juno became this easy joke, you know, And that very much was grafted onto this film and the way it was received, which is crazy because actually, like um, even though like critically the noise around it was loudly negative, like Roger Ebert loved like that, they loved this film like that. It got positive reviews in

the time. I think the Times like got a ton of really positive criticism, but because the conversation around Diablo Cody was so loud um that it just like consumed the kind of lens through which the movie was being looked at. And that was then um compounded with the Michael Bay drama, which is during the press junket of this movie, like around the movie was being around the

time the movie is being marketed. Megan Fox said really negative things about Michael Bay, the director of trans Farmers, the movie she had just come off of, and she also called him like Hitler, which is like, you know, not very like um intentional words, but like she had a horrible experience working with him, and for anybody like for her to do this in like a pre two era like is crazy, you know what I mean, Like

that is unheard of. It. It gives me just so much more love and respect um for Megan Fox just as an actor in general, Like she was blacklisted by Michael Bay and like was like essentially like talk made toxic in film and TV after this, And I think their favorability of both Megan and Diablo went significantly down

because of Jennifer's body totally. And I think with the Diablo cody of it all, I'm sure there was also this expectation because you look at these two films, right, you look at Juno, which almost has this like righteousness to it of this character who like does this you know, good thing, and like you know, she gets pregnant, she gives her baby up for adoption. Like there's this I'm not I'm not gonna say like st Lena's to Juno. But it's a very twee film. It's very sweet, it's

it's very much a feel good movie. You immediately fall in love with everyone involved and become protective Juno. And so then for the follow up to that to be this, So you have all these people who are already poised to not like Diablo Cody, and then she writes this movie about a bloodsucking female demon, you know, it's giving unfortunately,

gave people weapons to use against her. I wonder, like, not that I want this to happen, but I wonder, like what would have happened to either Megan or Diablo if this if Jennifer's body was instead her like fifth or sixth film, you know what I mean, Like if it had come later in her career, when there was there was like more breathing room around, you know, her success or something, or it just felt like consequently and unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time, Because

I mean, let's be honest, if this movie came out today, this was a first time filmmaker and it was an movie, it would like it would be an Oscar nomination, you know it actually like there should know I was gonna say there should be a reboot, but like, there should just be more movies like it. There should be so many more movies. I mean, I mean there are and

there there's movies and TV shows like it. And I think so much of the media that we enjoy and consume probably does owe a debt to Jennifer's body in a way. And I think it's really ahead of its time. I mean, there's it's not perfect. There's some no, there's some very racist jokes in it. Um and you know, there's a Chris Pratt jump scare and oh my god, and then Chris Pratt says the word fags or whatever he says like saga like oh my god, it's two on the nose right now. Um It. It's just a

good movie. It's a good scary movie. Megan Fox is genuinely terrifying, and she's also acting like she plays it completely serious. Like a lot of the rest of the movie, I would say, it's like pretty camp, and she decided to play it straight. And I have so much respect for her because of that, you know, And it also just made me appreciative of what is demanded of an actor in an action movie. I know, that Jennifer's body

is less of an action movie than Transformers. But I was like, that really is like a whole different breadth of skill sets that you have to take on and and habit in your body in order to do this acting. Yeah, and she and a man to deliver Diablo Cody's lines so well that scene in the Poolhouse where Amanda Cyford says something like when she's floating, she's like, oh, you show off, And she's like, do you have to like, you know, like have an opinion on everything I do?

It's it's just so funny. She's literally floating through the air, demonic, he possessed, and she's like, why do you why do you always have to like, you know, denigrate what I It's just like it's like a caddy girl fight, but she's floating in the air. It's genius. It's like really smart. It's cinematic invention, like we've never seen that before. But yeah,

the movie, the ending, I didn't love the ending ending. Yeah, So this is my problem is that I do think if the movie were made today, it would end with Needy also becoming a demon and her and Jennifer being together being a couple and just like going off and killing people, and that's how it should have ended. There could have been like a love story in there somewhere.

I think it could have been, Like I mean, especially now that like culture is like not completely primed, but more prime than in two thousand nine, for like a kind of lesbian revenge fantasy like that would absolutely eat because Needy is a little sanctimonious. She's like, you're doing bad things and you kill my boyfriend, so I'm gonna kill you, and I mean fair, but also like this is your best friend. Shouldn't you kind of be on her side a little bit? Yeah, figure out how you

can exercise the semen or you know, all these different things. Um. Can we also talk about the soundtrack of this movie. Oh my god, this is I think this is the first time I heard Florence the Machine was kiss with a Fist because the trailer, it's in the it's in the movie. I know it's in the movie, but I was wondering if it was also I don't know it might have been in the trailer because two nine is the year that Lungs came out. It was with the Fist was the first single, So I do believe that

this was how I discovered Florence the Machine. And also, let's say it the song that Low Shoulder that becomes famous in the movie because of their satanic ritual and becomes like the soundtrack of of Devil's Kettle the town and like everything bad that happens there, it does up its laps. And also there's a there's a song by the Black Kids that drops. It's called I'm Not going to Teach your Boyfriend how to Dance with You, and

it sent me down such a huge spiral. I like had no choice but to make like an indies Lee's playlist. Um I I I had not heard that song in ages UM. And I also think kiss with a Fist is also in that like kind of era of music. I was reading later that UM the soundtrack was produced by Fueled by Ramen. Do you remember Fueled by Ramen? Girl? I was like, I was like, damn, Like I want like movies to go back to this because that like era of music, Like I mean, it was very like

Sufjan Stevens kind of me. It's it's indie music that you know. This is like um discovering the Kills through a Gossip Girl episode. Era Yeah, this is like the era of Paramore, Paramore of Feist being in an iPod commercial. You know, this this US you know they even Adam Adam Brody even says, do you know how hard it is to make it as an indie band these days? And like has the whole spiel and theble Cody's like love for indie music, I think is something I appreciate.

Like Kimmy add Austin was like a nobody before that movie and she I think her love of indie music is actually something is something that isn't always appreciated. You know. I did realize in watching this film that possession movies are not really my go to with horror and kind of a bit of a blind spot for me. Like obviously I've seen The Exorcist. Have you ever? I think I had to go home early because I was so scared. It was really scary. It is, it is really scary.

Um It's but it's not like Super I don't. I don't, I don't. I'm not obsessed with it. Like I get, I get that are very of their time. Yeah, I get that it's a great movie, but it's not one that I've really wanted to revisit a lot. You know, there's Hereditary, which I have truly only ever been able to watch once. The first time I saw it in theaters so so so scary. I still think about Tony

Colette hovering over the bed. My old apartment in Brooklyn had really tall ceilings, and any time the lights were off, I was like, Tony Colette is up there. She's gonna get me. She's gonna like swim past my head. It's the scariest part of Um. Have you seen Ghostbusters? Uh? Yeah, I have? Okay, So Sigourney Weaver in the movie where she gets possessed by the demon, she's feeling a little Jennifer's body. Yeah, she is. Sigourney honestly is something of

like a kind of action thrilled. She honestly, like Megan fa could have been the next Sigourney kind of not known like alien transformers like the Alien No I haven't, but like versatility, like in like a kind of Blockbuster action, but also able to do something like campy and stupid. Where do we what do we think Megan Fox's career would be today if she hadn't been blacklisted. Oh that's a good question. I feel like she she would not

be dating Machine Gun Kelly. Let's say that. No, No, I mean I hope, I hope not she would be dating Megan Kelly, as we said during our Hogus book is rewatch um. But no, I think if she, if she, she would probably be the muse of someone like maybe even she would maybe be in an r astro movie, you know who. I think she would kind of be giving a little bit. I think she'd be a sort of Juliette Lewis figure. Oh, I could see that. I mean she's not like kind of cantankerous like Juliet Lewis.

She'd be sexy Juliette Lewis, sexy comedic relief because let's Megan Fox has amazing comedic timing um and also like incisive intense, a dead pan like unfazed by the world, by everything around her, um, and you know, it's really fear like Juliet Lewis is definitely like one of those fearless characters. Megan Fox is definitely one of those people too.

I hope that she does more things. It doesn't seem despite her renaissance um last year, if it is a zance, it doesn't seem like she's signed up to do more movies. It has more been a it has more been about her as a person than has been about her as an actress. She did some like Netflix vampire show or

movie or something she did. Yeah, but I think she should do something like a Yellow Jackets, like not not necessarily literally yellow Jackets, but I think she should show up in you know, a streaming show or something like

a little Prestige, maybe a little spoon Key. And I do think she's a good actress, Like I would like to see her back in that space rather than just like talking about how she like licks machine on Kelly's Blood or something, you know, the Machineern Kelly stuff is like so disappointing and honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, when I'm thinking about what Megan Fox is susceptible to, maybe she would become one of Ryan Murphy's music Like maybe she would have been like an Emma Roberts kind

of you know, well, she's not totally. I think she still could like get her get her in the next season of American Horror Story. No, no, no, she deserves better than that. Like Ryan Murphy is not writing the best of his life in the American horror story franchise, Like no, but I think it's a good place for her to start out because look at look at Sarah Paulson. You know, I think it would be I think it would be a good chance for people to be like, oh, yeah,

she actually is a good actress. It would be a good starting vehicle for the next phase of her career. Yes, and then she makes the next bird Box, like Megan Fox would make the next bird Box, you know what I mean, like the next viral bad thriller. Yeah, totally, Like she needs to be in the next thing that is unavoidable, and so everyone in the world remembers who

she is. Yeah, eat ship, Michael Bay. This is actually it should be said also that Amanda is another actress that was like prestige before it was realized, you know what I mean, like her MOMMYA era, or her like Jennifer's Body era, like very camp but like no one knew she could do something like the dropout, like you know what, well, I mean, if Megan Fox hadn't been black lusted, she might have a very similar career to Amanda's.

You know, maybe would have leaned a little sexier. I don't know, I mean, you know, not that Amanda hasn't had her own trials and tribulations in Hollywood. You know, Uh, she had those photos of her having sex with her uh future husband leaked. And also I think if Olivia Rodrigo is going to do this like send up of of Jennifer's body and like reference her visually, like bring her out at a concert, put her in video, she

should be in the music video. They kind of look alike, like Olivia Rodrigo propping up Megan Fox in a new era and also propping up Paramore and not propping up stealing from Paramore and then making Paramore kind of relevant again to some extent. Um. God, is Olivia Rodrigo just like a cultural suit sayer, like she really like show us what we want and need out of culture? Like God? I mean, I think it's more that she has the right people on her team who know where to pull

references from it. It's not like I think Olivia Rodrigo's like she's making the mood boards herself. Yeah no, no, no, have you listened to the new Paramore song. I'm obsessed with it. It's very um. I mean, I was gonna say different for Paramore, but it sounds a lot like, you know, the last few albums that they released that

no one listened to. It's kind of like groovy indie sleeves. Um. Something I really like that they did is they just revealed the track list to their new album by like putting it in like secret writing on a T shirt that was sold, like for merch somewhere, and like it was revealed what the the track list for the album is, which I thought was cool. I love Paramore. It does feel like the stars have aligned in this way where we truly are just back where we were twenty years ago.

You know. It's like we're in the revival of India. Slee's tumbler Hell is a teenage girl and j Lo and bed Affleck are back together again. Yeah, and you know, I'm I'm fresh off of my second puberty, Yeah, as a woman this time, and I'm ready, more ready than ever to embrace Jennifer's body. And Megan Fox. Yeah, Megan Fox please. And Amanda Seyford who now has an Emmy. Yes, she won the Emmy for for the Dropout. Oh thank god, she was so good. I didn't even know that because

I didn't watch the Emmys. Yeah it was great. Wow. And you still need to watch Mamma Mia. I mean, do I need yes to watch fand Virgins Friends with Me frand you need to watch one movie. This Thursday, we will be back with a normal episode, our final Halloween episode on vampires. Oh my god. It honestly you would think that we would be done with vampires. But no, girls, it's just getting started. Oh no, we are going to This is a topic that will live forever. Yea truly,

so sharpen your steaks. But yeah, Thursday, we will be talking all about all things vampires, mostly about how gay they are, very gay. Thank you so much to producer Phoebe for editing these bonus episodes. Thank you to our team at my Heart, and thank you to all of you virgins for listening. Make sure you connect with us, follow our fin stuff like a Virgin for twenties sixty nine and uh and then that's it. That's all, Okay, that's all.