The Mommy Vibes Of It All

to use a three. So what I'm gonna do is I'm going to look only for completed works, and then I'm going to sort by kudos, and we'll see what the most popular Carol fan fiction is. Okay, is called better than fiction? It's by simply Sally. Okay. Here's some of the tags fluff, angst, first time lesbian sex, romance, slow burn, age difference, librarians, smut, religious conflict, alcohol abuse,

the slash alcoholism. Okay. Here's the synopsis. Life is a librarian in rural Alabama, was driving Terrez Belavet slowly insane, and then a new family from Vermont moved into town and everything changed when she meets the sexy wife of the new paper mill manager, Sparks fly a song by Taylor Swift. Also, here's the one where Carol is a

doctor and Doctors without Borders. Not that. So today we're talking about Carol, the two thousand fifteen film starring Cape Blanchett and Rooney Mara, based on the novel The Price of Salt by Patricia high Smith UM, which is considered a you know, contemporary lesbian classic, a queer Christmas favorite, right, And we're going to be, you know, talking all about

Carol um our first experiences with it. We're gonna be talking about lesbian's Christmas gloves, high speed chases, uh, and you know, maybe some of the other works of Patricia high Smith, because this is like a virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm Rasdami and I'm fran Toronto. I think we have talked on this podcast before about whether or not we would eat human flesh, honestly multiple times, multiple times. Yeah, in case

it hasn't made it to air. I don't think anyone will be surprised to find out that, yes, I would eat human flesh, and not only like would I hypothetically do it, like I would actively like to try. And that is why When I watched the first five minutes of the movie Bones and All, I was like, this is a movie written, are directed, produced, and concepted by Rose damn you like it was so yes, I actually wrote the y a novel and paid Luca Guardanino to adapt it. They didn't even have to option it. I

just said, here, please take it. Um. Yeah, So so we've both seen Bones and All. I saw it last week. Um I I loved it. I know you would. So it's so its incredible, no pun intended. I knew that I would love it, and I was so happy to be proven right. It was such a beautiful movie. Like

I I was gat and I was gagged. I thought it was so much fun, like NonStop fun on the world building level, like and you could hell that the source material was just like really sharp and fun like so just it's the basis is there's boymate's girl and there's like bisexual cannibal meets bisexual cannibal. Um, and that's

what this story is. And in this world, which is in the eighties, UM, cannibals are a somewhat common, not common thing in society, and they're frequently you know, abandoned as kids and so they are like cannibals roaming around society that are kind of and they smell smell each other from far away, and they're all kind of feral. Right. There are a lot of specific things about this world of cannibal culture that was so cool, and that was

just something that I really just from jump was sucked into. Yeah. And and the thing that I liked about the way that this world was set up was that it was a matter of fact and like you learned things as the character learned things. So the main characters this girl who like all her life she's lived with her dad and they've gone from town to town as she has killed and mauld people. And once she turns eighteen, he, you know, like abandons her for good with some information

about her family. And Taylor Russell, I think, plays her with this really incredible frankness, like she's naive but in a way where she is very like curious, and I love how matter of fact she is and how she's like obviously it's in these like really intense circumstances, but

like makes them very believable and very grounded. And I just thought like she gave such an incredible performance, especially alongside Timothy, who you know, plays this this cannibal who she meets on the road and they fall in love.

And I had been wondering, like, would Timothy's start power be like kind of distracting, But I actually felt that it was very additive to the movie because you had to have someone with that much charisma in that role to understand like how they would be drawn to each other. And I think like the Timothy shallowmin of it all worked really well in that I loved Timmy. I really

loved that also. So just to your point about Taylor Russell, like I think, yeah, the the naivete of her character was balanced well with the fact that she's a survivor, right like this, this, this whole movie is a story about survival and isolation, like societal isolation and what you do with it when it's out of your control, Like what do you do with the hands that you're dealt like the finger off exactly, you bite the finger off.

And you know, this character is accountable, that you know doesn't necessarily want to be accountable, and Timote and other you know, forces in in the movie are kind of convincing her that you know, girl, this is who you are so why don't you lean in and figure out what you do like about it, how you can take

a bite exactly. So on Timmy, I will say, obviously, this movie can't exist without Timmy was perfect, added the realism and the natural realism that marries with Luca Guardardino's style on a really really cool, like fantastical premise that said, I'm so sorry. I I really don't like being I don't like doing this. I don't like but and yet you do it over and over again and yeah, and

yet you bring it to us every ball. I think Taylor Russell is a movie star uncontested Lee and I think she I would watch her in so many other things. I think that next to Timmy, her performance felt a little to y A because what Timmy gave to me

was not why A. It was like pure realism. But I felt like the way the movie was written, like specifically the dialogue was extremely why A and I. You know, we were texting after and I was like I felt a little way and you were like, well, it was based on a y A book girl, and I was like, oh, like I can of course, like I can tell like that is like rich on the page, and so And this doesn't mean that I disliked the movie, but I just I was like I wanted it to either be

y A or complete and total realism. And I I did think that Taylor's performance felt a little weak next to Timm's because like he could sell the dialogue more than but when she was selling it, she was selling it like with this kind of upbeat like y Anus is like all I can mustard like that what to

to describe her about? I was still like, I don't know, I wonder if what you're seeing is that she was playing a teenager, because she was, and like I I just honestly like, I guess I get what you're trying to say. But I thought that that all worked really

well in the context like of the movie. And I really felt like she and Timothy especially but everyone were all in the a movie, which I think sometimes doesn't happen um like in films that are this massive, not just because like the awards of it all, but like the movie star and like you know, the like atur director. But I like believed their love story. And I also

believed even more than that in her journey. I was too, because the thing is she's the the protagonist, Timmy, does not come in for quite a while into the movie, which I appreciate it. I thought it was really cool, and so that's why I felt like Timmy's like performance

was like, you know, it felt unintentional. It felt like it unintentionally disrupted the genre that we they were in um and so I personally think that they were not in the same movie, but I do think that they both brought something to the romance that was essential and

definitely believable. So I don't feel at any point like the premise or like what they were doing was unbelievable because I was just honestly having so much fun still, Like, I get what you're saying, but I think there's a difference between y A and something that is about teenagers,

and I actually thought this might agree. I totally thought this film did a really good job of telling a story that was about teenagers, but like in a way and like from an adult's perspective and not like, yes, it was a coming of age story, but it didn't feel um like juvenile. Yeah, it really was about the dialogue For me, like I felt like dialogue had been lifted from the books because it was clunky. It was over a nunciitive. It was a lot of telling instead

of showing. It was full sentences instead of like things that would be naturalistic kind of like fragments, Like I would never have felt like it was to y A if Timmy wasn't in the film, right, Like, I think Taylor brought exactly what the film needed, and then Timmy just brought in a different energy and then I was just like, okay that it just it just like felt different to me, like and I didn't under I didn't

buy their chemistry a hundred percent of the time. But like it's that that's not it's not really Taylor, It's not really either there there's faults. Like that's to me, a directing issue, and that's at the end of the day. I think like some of the cinema was beautiful, All the production was beautiful, it's just simply on that element

of the direction. I like, I noticed so many of these little like stylistic flourishes um that I really recognized from Suspiria, which is the last film that that Luca Guadnina made, and I just think he has such a clear vision that he's really able to turn towards each of these different worlds. If you look at the past three movies he's made like very different subject matters, but like still like this very consistent gaze and point of view. I also loved the score, which was done by Um

Trent Restner of Nine Inch Nails and Atticus Ross. And you know, they've done a bunch of film scores at this point. One of them. Oh I didn't know that. That's so cool. Yeah, I'm speaking of music. I've been listening to the new Waste Blood album a lot. And she's a girl who I have not really been that much into, but you have really been singing her praises for a while. I think. I remember when we went to Joshua Tree last year. You were playing her a lot. Yeah.

We were on Vaca and I was like, oh, like we were cooking, I think, and I was like, oh, I want to put on this album that we were that I was talking about, UM, which was Titanic Rising and that album is for the Virgins, so fucking good. UM. But her new album, Yeah, I'm glad you enjoyed it. I loved it too. It was so beauty. It's very pretty. It's you know, I do think it's like sliding into this space that I mean kind of a lot of music.

Like it's how I received it at first, which is where it takes a while for me to really figure out what are the standout songs for me, and it all just kind of like blends together. And I think the dream equality of her voice sort of exacerbates that. Um, But now that I've spent more time with it, like, there are some songs that are really standing out to me, Like God turned me into a flower so beautiful, um,

hearts to glow. But she like she really does sound so much like Joni Mitchell with like a little Nico thrown in, But it's insane. Nico's such a good comp I had never thought of that. Yeah, she has this kind of like she has one of those artists where her vocal, her very her vocal specificity is what anchors

the music right and yeah, I for the versions. I feel like she's like wise what is very like Karen Carpenter, if like she had an electric keyboard and electronic keyboard and like saying about depressive relationships and like being anxious at heart. Total Like Carpentry is a really good comparison. I think it was. This is something that's really cool about her Rose like she was, she grew up like very evangelical Christian and so a lot of like her.

A lot a lot of her music is like inspired by church music and inspired by kind of religious fanaticism. I was gonna say, like, I honestly think that, like with Wise Blood and definitely with Ethel Kaine, like I kind of fall in love with the story of them as much as I fall in love with the music, because I do love seeing the references and when you hear the references so clearly in the music, like I don't know, it just like makes me feel so I just like love seeing like the brain on the track,

you know it's it's it's so gorgeous. I love UM. Speaking of brains and other body parts. You were telling me over text that you have started watching the new UM Netflix Wednesday show, Yes, which I can't remember if you if you watch it early for work or some thing or that. I watched it like a month ago, and okay, I had a great time watching it. I think it's so fun. Yeah, I I honestly I had

really low expectations. I'm not gonna lie, like, following our Tim Burton episode and and thinking about just like, um, what the things that we come to expect from Netflix shows. I really loved the series right away, like such a pleasant surprise to me. Um, it was very like we need to fill the gap that Sabrina left. Like I felt that hard, but like I'm not mad at it, you know, Like and and Jenna Ortega, who plays Wednesday,

is a marvel. Like she's so, she's a star. She's been great and everything that she's done, and it kind of has taken up until this point to find the right vehicle to truly I think unleash her star power because she's done a lot of supporting roles. She's been in a lot of netflixings. Um, she was in X earlier this year, and she she was in the screen movie as well, the Scream Races. She plays the most annoying character in You. She does It's like but again,

now she found her vehicle. She just has it. She is perfect at the dead pan Wednesday thing, those like little moments of like um, you know levity, like the sort of like smirk she does. She the dance scene like was so done scene. I think no spoilers for the virgins. It was thus I think there's a lot of the dance. I think there's a lot of young actors especially who would do a role like this and would be sort of rolling their eyes the whole time and like like like l O L can you believe

I'm doing this? But she's just like so committed to it that it works and the and like I really appreciate that because like, yes, Wednesday is a character who is like, you know, like the prototypical like um, you know golf girl. Um, she's you know, the black print for lydia diets and and like all the other like sad, angry golf girls who like have guillotines. Um. But she just like really she she is the has to be the straight man in her own show and just like

does it so well. That's such a good way of putting it. Like she is someone who's just kind of like bearing witness to like the idiocy around her. Like for if if you haven't watched it yet, like The Virgins, like it's very it's she is the protagonist and her family like isn't in the movie as much as she is, you know, basically starting life at a new academy called Nevermore. It's it's very Monster High meets like Daria, right, it's like murderous Daria, you know, like and and I loved that.

And I thought that, like, whoever concept of this, because it wasn't Tim Burton, whoever like concept of the show like understood the like the the contemporary relevance of a character like Wednesday, who has has had like jokes about like anti colonization, like back in like the nineties and early odds, right, like there were things about this character that were like against the world and against the oppressive

forces of the world. And you know, the Adams family was a Latin family, even though that didn't really come through in a lot of the iterations of the franchise and was only present in I think the after the cartoon, right is like when they were like, oh, yeah, I guess his first name is Gomez, so like, I guess he's Latin, right, Like, you know, I was reading a little bit about like the history of Um Adam's family and how um when John Aston, the original Gomez Um

was cast, they were like, yeah, you need to like lean into like the Latin lover energy of the portrayal or whatever, which is obviously very cringe now, but it was like it just like, you know, there were no Latin characters on screen at all, and so to have um an adaptation that sees like the relevance and also just like how effortless all of that has folded into the world. It was. So it's so fun. It is it is, It's very fun. It's dark, it leans into

the darkness. It really doesn't like pull punches because it is a show ostensibly for and about teens. Um. I loved that Christina Ricci was in it. You know, Christina Ricci played Day in the nineties films. Um, and she was so fun in it, and um, yeah, I just had had a good time. Catherine data Jones was Slade

when she was on screen. Um. You know, there are some questions I have about the the world and that like I don't think we're like answered as satisfactorily maybe as they could be, But um, I like I would

definitely watch the season two. No, I mean honestly, I think that like Riverdale is a camp for this show because there are a lot of twists and turns where if you're a teen or preteen watching this, you're not you don't care about like the kind of like the logistical or believable, the believability of the emotional stakes of these characters when they are sometimes a little thin, but you're because it's so drama and because it's so like

such a juicy and eccentric teen show. Like I don't know, I I do have fun watching it, even when I'm just like, oh, this is like a teen show, you know, speaking of reboots. Um I I did try to watch Disenchanted. Try I Ryan, Ryan and I watched thirty minutes of it and had to turn it off. Wait wait, can you explain to the virgins actually like the cultural importance of this moment, because like you two are very like Amy Adams, so you love the original Enchanted, So like

what happened? What? What was that? That's what happened? Just like I couldn't do it. I didn't want to. I'm shook. So you're never going to watch the other half of that. I'll probably not half thirty minutes because we were watching it and then paused it to eat and we were like, Okay, it's got to be halfway over now, and that's when we realized we were only a third of it. We realized we were only like a quarter of the way

in and we were like, Nope, given up. I'm sure I'll go back and finish it at some point, but I'm not like in a rush to watch it, to be honest, Like it was better than hocus Pocus too, but it did make me feel the same way. I know, it made me feel the same way, Like it made me feel like they were trying to make the magic happen twice instead of finding something that's like really interesting about this world and like reinvigorating it. Um, I don't.

Just from from what I saw, it was just lacking what was so perfect about the original besides that it was like amazing and like the music was great and all this stuff. The original Enchanted is met a commentary on Disney movies, and like, from what I watched, this was not doing any of that. And that's one of

the reasons why I Enchanted works so well. It's like maybe the main reason why Enchanted works so well, honestly, we and can we talk about that because it's so true, like the original Enchanted was a subversion of Disney's core principles in like perfection and ideally poking fun in itself. Yes, it was. It was. It was ingenious, like, it was so crazy to watch if you're a Disney hallic because it's ripping open all of these you know, things that we don't really allow, that we don't usually see in

Disney movies. And so yeah, I agree. I don't think that the next movie was The second movie was amazing. Can I rattle off just like a few observations because I did finish the movie. Um, I felt that Amy Adams had not aged a day. I did not see a single pore on her skin. I'm not going to I thought she looked incredible. I don't know where Disney is getting all of these bad child actors. They're all so so hard to listen to, and then they have to anchor so many scenes and I'm like, are you

talking about the daughter? Yes, that's the daughter from Enchanted. It's the same actress. Why why didn't they just pick a new girl? Why did they do that? Did they really do that? Oh my god? I had no idea. Um okay. I also just I um the movie. So do you do you get to like the twitt the

kind of twist where you know she'd be where? Okay, So Amy Adams basically makes herself the wicked stepmother and creates world around like very wan Division esque, like has a spell that makes the world of this suburbia enchanted, like fantasy is now on Earth in her suburb and so she is like this wicked stepmother that goes up against Maya Rudolph who was like the evil queen of

the world. But Rose she does not sell wicked step mom at all, like it is and and it's so disappointing because I actually think Amy is good enough to do that, but like she is, she's not believable at all at what should be a really fun and engaging like like twist of her character, like she can't be evil. And I was so sad that she didn't, like Stick the Landing. When you do watch it, i'd be curious. I mean you, I feel like you would probably feel

the same way. Um, but yeah, And then honestly, my last thing that like I think also you would have the same critique is that there of course as a sequence where they go back into the like the animated world of like enchanted, and the animation style is trash Mama like it is like so ugly. It's giving like like millennial like medical ad like like cartoonific and I got immediately. So this is another unusual one where I, um, it kind of took me a while to see Carol.

I I did not watch it until Christmas, God bless, I would definitely was aware of it. I just never, you know, got around to seeing it and then realized it was, you know, a glaring omission and watch didn't I mean obviously immediately fell in love. Um, not just a glaring omission in the consumption of the cannon, but you're cannon like. It's such a you movie, you know what I mean? Um? And I guess, well, when did you did you see it when it first came out?

Did you see the theater? Definitely, I'm pretty sure I saw it. I did not see it in theater, so I think, yeah, that would have been really nice to see in theaters. It is a movie that feels like a movie. Is I wonder if Cinispia will do a Carol Christmas screen. Of course went back from to l A for that, honestly after so I rewatched for the episode, and I do feel like it's now something I have to watch every year. It is it is. It is one of the Christmas movies. So for any virgins who

haven't seen Carol Um. It is the story of terrez Belavette, who is a you know, part time seasonal employee at the department store in nineteen use New York City, and one day she waits on Carol Aired, who is a wealthy suburban housewife, and there's instantly a spark between the two of them. Carol leaves her gloves um in the children's toy department. Who should say if it was on purpose or an accident, yes, where she's been buying a gift for her daughter Lyndy, a train set. And let

me tell well, she was looking for a doll. It's so funny the dynamics. Yeah, well that's honestly, Like Carol is literally walking into the store and her kind of vibe is like, my daughter wants a fucking doll. I don't really know why she wants a doll. It's this very specific doll. I don't care. And then and then she's like she's like this fucking kid, Yeah, this fucking kid.

And then of course this like hot young thing. Like it's like, actually, when I was young, I wanted a train set, and Carol clock set, I was like, I'll take one loaded up in the car, She's like, you say a train? Did you say a train? Because there's actually nothing more, you know, nothing gayer than a train than a train set. Then then not just like it's not about the train, it's not about transportation, it's about like creating the train set, like you are actually the

arbiter and constructor of the whole ass train set. And that actually was the spark between them. Phoebe is losing it in the booth right now, is so deep. So as the story goes on, so Carol leaves her gloves and terres who's um. You know, imagination and sexuality have been you know, peaked by this older woman, sends her her gloves back, and and Carol invites her out to

the suburbs in Connecticut. I believe that's where she lives, doesn't one of those um and they have you know, just a very like girls being girls, like night listening to records by the fire, smoking cigarette. Yes, their first encounters are I wouldn't say platonic, but they don't make physical advances on each other, you know. So they go out. They eat cream spinach, cream spinach with a poached egg,

which honestly disgusting, but like also sounds really good. Can you imagine bottoming after eating cream spinach and like a jammy egg? Like I would be worried that's not something. Well, I don't well, I don't know that they're having butt sex. You are. I love how you forclosed on the kind of like sexual proclivities of but I think you're but

I think yours. You're thinking of their sex life through the lens of a person who has sex with their but they and you're grafting your sexuality onto these two, which I do know. Sis, women, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't I have no, I don't think you're really I don't. I don't know if you're onto something. But the let's just say, you know, things get romantic. Things are also complicated because Carol is in a you know, sort of tumultuous divorce with her ex.

Hard and Carolyn Tourez decide to kind of run away together on this road trip. They are pursued by a private detective. There's lots of intrigue. It's very twisty, yeah and sexy, and they and I think when thinking about kind of the cultural impact or maybe just like general sentiment about the movie when it came out, Like it's so funny, Like Carol really does replicate all the troops we've seen before and a kind of gay romance drama

in a lot of ways. Right, Like it back to our discussion on My Policeman, Like there's like a woman who has a straight partner, right, and she has to reconcile that in order to you know, chase her you know, desire or whatever. But like, their performances are so good and the movie is so good, and the tension is so expertly built, like you're not even mad that they're not fucking for like most of the movie, because I

think the anticipation is like pristine. Like, yeah, I think it's a little different though, because even though, um, you know, the the hetero society is an obstacle to their love, it's not really an internal obstacle. Like Terres knows right away that she wants Carol, and Carol has experienced with women, as we see with her friends Abby played by Sarah Paulson, who is also an ex of hers. I mean, hello, the lesbians, they're still friends. Um I left the I

got my eye on this red headline. Um, but I I agree Yeah, it's it's different, and I think a lot of it also has to do with the fact that this movie champions the romance, like it's not about the all the moving parts, like obviously it's very melodramatic, but blanches and the fact that it is more of a romance is kind of a deviation from the source material. I don't know if you've ever read The Price of Salt, did you? I read it after I watched the movie.

I was on a Patricia Highsmith kick, and The Price of Salt is much more well, I mean, if you read, if you've read any Patricia Highsmith is what comes as a surprise that The Price of Salt is much more of a thriller, because that's what Patricia Highsmith did as

she wrote thrillers. And it's much more about them being on the run from the detective at the end than it is about I would say, like the movie is much more the weight is on the beginning of their love story and like the romance of it, and then that all is kind of like a sort of third act thing with the detective happens. It's like the climax, Yes, And I would say that is kind of half of the Price of Salt is all this stuff with Harge and Way. But the thing is that it's still they

both have very hopeful endings, you know. And it actually the ending is even more clearly hopeful in the novel than it It's more explicitly like a happy ending in the novel than it is in the book. Do you remember how it goes down? Yeah, it's with it ends with them, you know, like getting back together. But it's with this with the movie. It's a little kind of

like like they both feel weird about it. They're both you know, have it feels like Rooney Mara has like it has hang ups about getting back into Carol's you know grasp again. Yeah, I mean, it it ends with with the possibility that they could reconcile because they are in the same place once again, whereas in the novel it's like more definitively that they are going to get back together. Yeah. Okay, wait, so do you think do you consider yourself a Carol or a Tress. You're a Carol.

I'm a Carol. Yeah, You're a Carol, right, because you're the one that likes to strut end and be like this is how it's going to happen. Yeah, I would say I'm I'm the mom in the relationship because this the milf energy in this movie is unparalleled on real Okay, when every time she wears the pairs of every time she wears the pair of sunglasses over the looks. Looks in this movie are out of this world into the

stratosphere everything. I want every item of clothing that both of them wear, and this is there's something also about movies that take place in this era, and Carol specifically. I was also thinking about this with like leak of their own smoking is so sexy. Smoking. We need to bring back cigarettes. Everybody smoking needs to be brought You could, honestly, if you could smoke just without the smell, I would

be smoking a pack of Day serious. Thank God, It's so chic except when you smell, especially when they used to smoke indoors. God, do you remember the era when we could smoke at restaurants? Why we I mean we were children were children. But there was there was a a Nathan's Slash like rob something rotisserie chicken restaurant in my neighborhood growing up where there was a smoking section in it. I there was also a diner in Illinois that I used to wait, I need to find out

what it's. And when I first started going to bars when I was in high school and like sneaking into gay bars you were you could smoke in there. There was this like open late diner in my suburb um in Illinois called Beef and Brandy at a mob smoker section. I remember sounds like a place that Carol would take Tret and Brandy. Honestly, is a really good restaurant name Beef and Brandy? Is it? Yeah? I think it's because

like a franchise, Brandy goes with Beef. And also probably it's like a I feel like in in this kind of like a in this uh dichotomy, I think Carol is the Brandy. Okay, so um you Siety answered that I'm a Carol because are you a Carol or Terres? I'm a Terres. I would like I wish I was a Carol, but no, I play defense. But also, okay, actually, here's what I think. The dynamic of this podcast is your Terres, Phoebees, Carol, and I'm Sarah paul is a

smoking gun. Sarah Paulson, I think that's it. I'm not gonna lie. I actually can definitely own up to being a Rooney Mara type, like I really play I cannot tell when people are hitting on me. I absolutely play dumb. It doesn't matter how entranced I am, Like, all I can do is saying how enchanted you are, and was

enchanting to me. I love Rooney Mara, and honestly, we were promised a Rooney Marra career that we did not get, and this kind of this her being in this movie, I believe is a direct consequence of that, and so I'm okay with it. But she was poised to be such a gigantic movie star when The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo came out, because that was set up to be this phenomenon and it never took off quite the way that I think people expected it too, because of

what a sensation the book was. But I am obsessed with The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, and for me, like Carol, it is an annual Christmas watch. The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo is a Christmas movie shot it is. She's so Wintery's excellent in that movie. She was nominated, right, she was nominated for an Oscar so she okay, and the press the lead up to that movie, when she she and Daniel Craig did so many shoots in character.

There's one where like she's he's like giving her a tattoo or he's giving one of them, I don't know. And the movie, uh no, they did a bunch of photo shoots like where character she was given a tattoo and like she was naked in these photo shoots. I mean it. I was so obsessed with the haircuts she got for the movie with like the Little Baby Bang, and she's so sexy in that and the way they

fucking it and oh, she was so good. And I do think that if that movie had been more of a hit, she would have been a movie star in a different way than she is now, and she might never have done Carol. So I guess I'm kind of glad that The Girl with the Dragonta too low key flopped. Yeah. I didn't know that it flopped. I thought it was like such a I mean, she's so fucking good in that movie. Um well, there was there were never any

sequel because it wasn't super financially successful. Oh I wonder also, if like her playing tigerl littly in that Peter Pan movie also played a part in Like Her, Like Her Like kind of flopped them as an actress. Unfortunately, I don't because of Hollywood being the way it is, I don't think that negatively impacted her career, even though it

should have. But something that should be said about Rooney was that she was chasing an oscar for like many consecutive years, and there were like, you know, rumors about I can't remember which one she lost for, but she lost one of her in one of her oscar races. She lost, and she reportedly like was like in the bathroom, like crying and me, what about an oscar? I would know I would be upset, but I wouldn't be in the bathroom in the bathroom. And I'm not demonizing her

for that, I'm just providing context for the Virgins. Um. One of the other things that I was reading about was that, um, she you know, there's a lot of unfairness and how people decide what is the best supporting actress or best lead actress, and that she was best supporting in this role. But she's like on screen for

more of the movie than Kate Blanchet is. Yeah, but the movie is called Carol, Yes, and it's also Kate fucking Blanchet, like of course she's going to suck the air out of the room anytime, any other you know what I mean? Like obviously they're they're mirrored performances. I think they're both equally talented and incredible. But I know that there was also saltinus about how um, you know, best supporting was decided, and I wonder if there was

like drama there. That stuff is all bullshit anyway. Um Todd Haynes, who directed this film, you know, has made a lot of other very gay kind of movies. I haven't seen a lot of his films, But when I was a teenager, I was obsessed with Velvet gold Mine. Have you seen it? No, I've never even heard of it. It's um Christian Bale, you and McGregor and Jonathan riz Myers, the guy from the Tutors, And it's sort of like a Bowie. It's like about these rock stars who are

sort of like based on Bowie. It's super gay. There's like full frontal male nudity, a love full frontal man so good is Have you seen Far from Heaven? I have not. I haven't either that's when Julianne Moore flex her son. Though, right, that snooze to me, but it's one of it's one. I've gone back to our incest conversation from the Born episode. We might have edited that, doubt. Um. No, Far from Heaven is one of multiple movies where Julianne Moore fox her son. Yeah, one of multiple yes, yes,

and far from Him and she also plays um. She also sucks her son in Savage Grace with Eddie Red. I think it's Eddie Red when she was sucking her son. I don't know, because she likes to play complex female characters their son, yes, why not? Why not? It's complex. But I haven't seen either of these incest um dramas, but I would like to do that. That's those the types of film that Todd Hands makes, dramas. I don't know if I would categorize them like that. There's going

to say more more incests dramas, representation. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just the season. Okay, okay, okay, So back to play with your son's load. I'm dying, okay. You know I used to you know, I used to um when I was a party producer. I used to throw an annual Christmas party called Dick the Balls, not Dick the Ball the balls. That's the lowest hanging fruit, if you know what I know. That was the whole point, the

whole point shut up. Um. Something that's interesting in this movie specifically, and I guess in the book even though I hadn't read the book, is the kind of power a very common power dynamic we see in queer relationships, maybe specifically lesbian relationships. And I kept thinking about Tar when I was watching it, and like, how the edge

gap of it all, the mommy vibes of it all. Yeah, And it's funny to watch two knowing that like Kate is like day, Like I think we all at this point know that, Like Kate blanche is like kind of Queen Latifa style, Like yes, I think that's like an industry secret. You know she keeps playing lesbian. Yes, yes, because she can do that. She's Kate Blanchet. She's literally

one of the most famous people on the planet. She can do whatever she wants without talking about her sexuality, which someone did ask her about her sexuality once in the Carol Press junket and she said very quickly that she has had many relationships with women, but apparent she claims that that quote was taken out of context and she said, oh, you mean sexual relationships none. Maybe if we get Kate an oscar for TAR, maybe she'll come out and her well, what did it take for Jodie

Foster to come out? She got like a GLAD like an HRC award or whatever, like what was it? We don't. I don't want Kate to ever attend a GLAD Awards or an HRC benefit. Keep her far away. Kate is too high profile for that ship. That is kind of unfortunately that although I would love if we want a GLAD Awards. So if you're listening, we're open to it.

We will appear, Okay, we can confirm appearance. Um. I do think actually though that like PR people, I mean you would not used to work im Neflix not to say that, but to say that, like a lot of people that work on PR teams from major celebrities are saying that, they're saying like this person is actually too big for queer media, queer awards, queer things like that's too limiting, and you know, to it the extent unfortunately, Like I mean, but you kind of like true almost

like we used to bear media has not been legitimized in this media escape, so of course, like a listers don't want to go for it totally. You know, we as people who used to be queer journalists, Like you know, like if you go to one major film junket and you see that, like as someone from a queer outlet, and you see the position that you're in that day to interview the celebrities, you get a very clear idea

of where you are in the pecking order. Or sometimes like when you're on a press line on a red carpet, if you're like the last person at the end of the line, like when you're from a queer outlet, that's how it always happened. Oh yeah. And also just like don't try it like at a junket, like you're not gonna go in with the spicy question, like you'll get caught. I did, right, but like mostly I made a career out of it. But your questions weren't that spicy. They

were kind of fun, they were produced spicy. I told Timothy Shallowby that I was going to bring him a peach and that I would have eaten his come out of it and call me by your name. You didn't say that, I implied it. He knew what I was saying. He was picking up what I was putting down. And you know what, he loved it. And he gave me a hug afterwards, and then he gave me another hug when he saw me downstairs. He was stunning. Love did not love it so much. But that's another story for

another time. I just watched Kate play at lesbian every damn time, Like, I think she's done it. I think she's done it more than just Tar and Carolva now I can't remember well. Also Oceans eight, it's very obvious that she and Sandy Bullock kind of thing. It's almost feels like Kate kind of has like she could walk into a room and have like sexual chemistry with this lamp shade, you know what I mean. But only of

the lamp shade identified as a woman. Yeah, but that is the power of Kate, like the power of Kate. She's she's the lad. Yeah, it's so funny, like because Gladril was my entry point indicate not to make this

a Kate episode, but it is kind of a k episode. Carol, she's Carol Um Gladual was my entry point to Kate, and Gladriel, to me, is altogether perfectly um encapsulates what a Kate Blanchet role should be and at the same yes, and at the same time, I think Gladriel is like way different from all of her other roles too, because it's so genre. Um. Well, I guess there's like the Thor movie, but I don't. I don't, I don't consider

I don't think about the form. Yeah, I actually I revisited Thora Ragnarok somewhat recently, and I don't think it's actually very good, and I think she's not great in it. I liked the movie as something that broke open Thor

and made it fun and roller coasterly to watch. I like, Ta, You're not as manjor fan, hated Kate's character, hated the c G. I I mean she was c G. I for like the movie anyway, it's like but I do like that one image that came out of it of Kate standing next to taka um okay, so back to the power dynamics and the age gap of it all. I feel like this has become such a huge part of Internet discourse, specifically with gen Z the like prudish hand ringing about age gaps in relationships. Why, like why

are gen z such prudes? Like why are they boomers? Kind of yeah, like I've seen they are. I've seen TikTok's where where gen z are like talking about how it's disgusting that like a twenty two year old is in a relationship with like a thirty four year old Like what, yeah, no, it's it's silly, it's it's to me. It's just like group think, right, the all on TikTok.

They're all consuming the same ideas, Like every generation is done a version of this where we all decide to commit to one obscenely bad idea and our belief system, and like, I think this is just one of those things. And you know, like I guess that there's nuance in age gaps and power dynamics and that like, of course

those things should be acknowledged. But when everyone is you know, legal and above the age of consent, it's why it's I don't know what kind of it's like the same thing as the queer bating thing like stay out of people's relationships. Yeah, I think honestly, the way to think about it is like obviously, like age place, legal has like legal constraints and like how we talk about relationships

or whatever. But like, at the end of the day, the ethical framework for like age gap relationships is all about power, And you can have an abusive power dynamic and an age gap relationship that is perfectly legal, you know what I mean. It's not about like whether like how young the person is or how old the person is. It's about like what is the makeup of this relationship and is it healthy for both parties? Are they both consenting to it right? And like in Carol, they're clearly

concerning to it. But I wonder if there was ever like a grooming conversation or something. I don't know, I'm sure, I'm sure there's there's like gen Z kids watching Carol now and like Carol groomed to rest, like shut the funk up. Yeah, probably. I I honestly feel like, um, there wasn't. I feel like no one problematized Carol, Like there was no I don't remember any sort of controversy, Like no one was complaining that there were the stray actors and queer roles, you know what I mean. Another

thing I fully don't care about anymore. Yeah, I kind of. I care a lot about like sis actors and trans roles. Yes, that that's different because that that has real world consequences because as anyone who you know has watched Disclosure knows um that that trans women being portrayed by men in movies perpetuates the idea that trans women are men and women's clothing, which leads to real world violence being enacted

on trans women. So that has real world consequences. But a straight actor planning a gay character has no real world impact outside of more straight actors getting cast as gayer characters, Like there's no consequence to it, like I simply don't care about it, like I Yes, I think it would be great if there was a there were more equal opportunity for gay actors to both play gay

characters and straight characters. I wish there wasn't an industry bias that shut gay actors out from playing straight characters, or shut gay actors out from, if they do play a gay role, from doing anything besides playing gay. I think that's something that you see more often when actors talk about that, they talk about the ways in which they are pigeonholed. But I like I just fully don't

care about it anymore. To me, the fallacy in thinking that it doesn't matter, you know, what orientation this person is is like mostly it mostly depends on whether or not this person is a good actor, because Cape Blanchett of course can carry this role and stick the landing. This because I feel like we've talked about this before, but like, to me, a lot of what it comes down to it was like do you stick the landing?

And like that's why no one. I mean people kind of complained about calling by your name, but like faggots love that movie because they're well, I mean, I don't think Army Hammer is actually that great, but to me, the Timothy is so good in it that you have no choice but to love the film. And so to me, like, I think that I get frustrated when straight actors are in queer roles and they're also like not great actors.

And if I don't see like the nuances of of what you want to see in like a queer character, then I think that, yeah, it should be problematizes, you know, like I think that should be kind of the metric is like is this contributing something good or bad to like our canon at the end of the day, like is it a good story? Like that is the thing that I care about the most, Like is it a good story? But what do you mean good by like interesting? Or are you like a moral good? No? No? No?

Was it executed well? Like was it Carol? Was it called me by your name? That? Yeah? Um, it's funny though also just like maybe seguing out of this, like, um, Cape Bunchet was like asked about this, I think again during her like Tar Junket or whatever, and she you know, was talking about how she thinks that like it's important. Well, I'll just read the quote. She says, I think it's important on a society level, you know, to to like talk about queer stuff or whatever and homogeneity in any

art arm as death. But she kind of goes on to say that like anything we make like doesn't need to be political politicized, right, Like it's not her job to politicize the art. It's like the audience's job to

interpret it however they want or whatever. And you know, there's also like this moment where she says, like someone asks her about like the sexuality of Tar, she goes, oh, I didn't think about the character of sexuality at all, and I was like, well, I mean, I was like, well you you you you had you had to do something. I mean it that I think that Kate is like a brilliant person. Like everything she said in like her

kind of answer to this totally made sense. And I was like, work, d Evin, like you know what you're talking about, when she was like, I don't really, I didn't think about the sexuality all. I was like, it's very like I don't see color, you know, like it's kind of giving the same vibe, even those those are obviously very different like frameworks. But I don't know. I was just like, come on, like, why do actors keep

doing this like we're like human beings that have sex. Well, I think a lot of it rests on the fact that we expect actors to like say really profound things in interviews, and their actors they're not necessarily like particularly smart or you know, interesting, they're like usually like attractive and can act. Yeah, oh god, which is kind of all I need from them. Yeah. Um, have you ever

been in a relationship where that had an age gap? Um? Yes, well, you know, my a lot of my very early sexual experiences when I was still a teenager were with older men. And then when I was first in college, Yeah, I was very into older you know, kind of like daddy types. Yeah, I mean I was seventeen, like fucking people I shouldn't maybe, but the consensual that's more about them, and I wanted it so badly. I um, I I would love to be with the daddy type. I would love to be

with a mean mommy type. Actually, like I would love any sort of like power. I would love like an older but I've only I've dated. My age gap relationships are like dating someone who's like five years younger than me or whatever, And it's so it's it's so when it's funny because like age guests don't matter as much when like your past your thirties. I feel like I

definitely have kind of a hard line. And this is like where my words about you know, uh, like prudish handwringing over age gaps does come back to bite me in the ass a little bit because I don't necessarily see like a problem with it. But I also would not want to date or even really fuck someone younger than like five, just because I don't know what I would talk to them about. Right, No, I'm saying when they're both past their thirties, which I think is that

the case of Carol, because isn't I think young? Okay, yeah that yeah, yeah, that's the vibe. Um. Anyways, my point, My point is like it's just interesting how we create like weird kind of like islms about like what's good and bad based on something that is actually like pretty arbitrary. My early sexual experiences, I was baby and then uh now I'm usually more mommy. Um, but I don't really

want to be mommy. I don't want like, I don't want to take I like the idea of like taking care of someone in a way, um you know, like I love a twin. I love a twin, but um no, I mean someone who I truly have like a generational divide with. I don't know that it's gonna work. Let me tell you. That's what I was experiencing. I was dating someone who was gen z and it was like it was bad. It was I mean, it wasn't It was loving. There was a lot of love and like

this person was very mature beyond their years. But it was at the end of the day, I was like, this is a generational to flood and I actually don't have anything with you with in common with you, um, but I am always mean mommy, Rose. Like literally in every single age cap relationship I've ever been, and I've been in quite a few, I'm always mean mommy, and I do need to be needed. Like I love taking care of people, but like I would love to be taking care of Rose. I would love I would love

to be the Rooney Mara. I see you don't think you say that in theory, but I don't know if you would be able to accept that kind of care. I think I think from the right partner I would. But yeah, no, you're It's true. I do have a hard time asking for help or accepting help a lot of the time. But I still you need to work on that. I do. I do need to work on that. We gotta get you into therapy. I so virgins slide into our d M s at like a virgin for on Instagram and tell us are you a Carol? Are

you a terres? Would you use a leather glove if you were fisting someone? We want to know. I'm your co host, Rose damn you. You can find me anywhere online at Rose Damn You and I'm Franterata. You can find me at friends, squish co, anywhere you like, subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts, Leave us a rating on Spotify for a review on Apple podcast We appreciate it so much. Like a Virgin is

an I Heart Radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane Chitch and Nikki Etour