The Lion, The Witch & The Trans Lesbian Centaur

getting closer together. Wait now the beaver is sucking the fond. Put down this live fan fiction you're writing. I was this was against my son. I did not know. This is where you were going. Well, where I'm going is to the magical land of Narnia. Because today we're talking all about the lion, the witch, the wardrobe, the twink, the otter, the twunk, the daddy, the bear, the fisting top, the fisting bottom, the piss, the piss queen, the pillow princess,

and the wardrobe. Because this is like a virgin the show we give yesterday's pop culture, today's takes. I'm Rasdami and I'm fran Toronto. God, how did we get here? Happy Thanksgiving Virgins. We hope that you are surrounded by your family, whether they be biological or chosen. Yes, we hope that you are celebrating anti imperialism and that you understand that this is a wretched little holiday that has great food but otherwise is founded in a history of

you know, colonialist violence. Do you know what? I am disciplined in those that. Like this year, I'm going to my family in Connecticut and I just go out for the day, but everyone else there, you know, kind of stays throughout the weekend because they live there. I don't usually get sent home with leftovers, And to me, that is one of the best parts of Thanksgiving is eating the leftovers for a couple of days and you know, doing like a sandwich with turkey and stuffing and cranberry

sauce on it. So I'm like, where can I get one of those? Because I'm I'm not I will not be fulfilled with just having it one day. No, my favorite tradition is to make like a giant sandwich like the next day with like normal sandwich bread, but like you know, roasted turkey, cranberry sauce, cheddar cheese, like all of the things that like you want to put on a Thanksgiving meals so good. Wait, speaking of leftovers, how did you buy Chency Triangle of Sadness. I don't think

you saw. I still have not seen it. I at this point probably won't see it in theaters, but we'll catch it on digital at some point. Okay, I don't want to talk about it, but I just want to quickly like just you know, assign you homework and maybe the Virgin's homework to watch it when you can, because when I saw the trailer, I was like, that seems

kind of like two on the nose. The trailer makes it feel really cheap, right, It's like, this is the movie that eviscerated the upper class, amazing critique and capitalism, and I was like, I don't really want to watch that, And then I actually went to go see it, and it's like one of the most amazing things I've seen on screen in a very long time. Glad to hear that it was good. It needed an editor. Let's be clear, it is in suffering, we do, but but it was

so and rose I'm not gonna spot anything. There's just something that happens in the midpoint that is so shocking, and it's something that you never forget, Like it's just it's something that happens in a movie where you're like, I will never forget this. Um. Anyways, that's all I'll say, so that we can actually discuss it, you know, whenever we end up watching it. Um, what have you been watching this this this past week? Um? You know, I'm

neck deep in my annual Gilmore Girls re watch. You know, I have been in the middle of moving, so I really don't kind of have any patience for anything more than that. It's just been a lot of Gilmore Girls on in the background while I unpacked boxes watching too maybe I'll need to hop on and and and you should fire for the first time into it. But I did go to the movies last week and saw Wakonda Forever, and so did I and I had so much fun

at it. I think the impression that I was left with most was that, oh my god, everyone that movie is really hot. So fine, fine, nay More is the mod or he's the dick. Everyone should suck everyone should eat. I literally, like, it doesn't matter how many memes I

saw about him before seeing this movie. Nothing, nothing, could have prepared for me for what I felt in my body when nayme Or ascended from the sea, his his his winged little mercurial Herme's wing ass feet, fucking gay ass mermaid god little Speedo and his like indigenous Mayan ass ancestry and his accent and his thick little body. Oh my god. I was alone in the theater, clutching my face and physically breathless. That's not an exaggeration. I

was physically out of breath. What are the things that stuck out from you from the movie, like fave parts or things you didn't like maybe or I really like Dreary Williams. I thought she was a welcome edition, and I thought it made sense to bring her in because with Chadwick Boseman gone to the movie, you know, Leticia Right had to step into the lead role and couldn't

be like the like smart wise cracking sidekick anymore. And re redefinitely filled that position while also being a very compelling character with her own story and she has she has a TV series coming, so we'll get to see more of her. And I really liked the dynamic between her and Sherry, which was like they definitely were into each other. There was a vibe. Angela Bassett really chewed

every scene she was in. You know, that one scene where she is yelling at a koy a, you know, about how she's lost everyone in her life was devastating, and you know, she gave an incredible performance that I

thought Letitia Right did too. I thought, you know, this movie had this tremendous weight placed on it of having to not only honor Chadwick Boseman's legacy, but like deal with it in a way that was narratively fulfilling, and so much of that was put on the shoulders of those two actresses specifically, and I thought they really you know,

rose to the occasion. I mean, I agree. I thought that, like, given the circumstances, like everyone in the film really carried the responsibility of something that is kind of impossible to do from a media perspective, which is translate real life

grief to franchise grief. Like that sucks. I feel bad for everyone involved, like they had to literally like three months later like hop into this and like play grief on screen, and like part of me, like I do love that that this film was about grief, and I

felt like it was a resonant meditation on grief. But I also do wish that they could have just waited and and given it some space, so that like everyone involved could have, like I don't know, had more time with it, because, like I thought the burial scene was gorgeous, I did not need to see Chadwick Boseman's grave ascend into like a spaceship like that. At the end, I was like, I feel crazy watching that because it's so emotionally dissonant from what myself and probably every actor there

is feeling. One of the things I really liked was the way that they brought Michael B. Jordan's back is kill Monger, because he was such a great villain in Black Panther that just watching that made me remember what an enigmatic and like compelling presence he was in that movie. But also it worked really well for the story they were trying to tell that Sherry was like channeling her grief through anger, and so of course that is the

person that she would see in that moment um. So I thought that was just like one of one of those instances where you know the constraints of the movie they had to make really worked with the movie that they also wanted to make. And a place where maybe that was not so successful was the reintroduction of Lupete Nyongo because like, I mean, I she was. I was so happy to have her back. But it's like so funny that it's just like, oh, Lupeta, where have you

been in Haiti? And it's like like we all know that she like didn't do the Avengers movie because she wanted to be in an off Broadway play and like hates this Avenger ship. And like Lupeta, who's like one of the greatest actors of like our generation, like she's phoning it in, like she doesn't give a ship about this movie. She's I don't know, but I still think she's You don't really see that in her performance. I

think she's very committed. Maybe I'm projecting. I felt like I think you, I think you're projecting what you what you see in the real maybe because I thought she was really dialed in, like that that scene that she has with a Koa where she's talking about why she wasn't at the funeral. Like mean, she's an incredible actress

and she has to do so little to Fay so much. Yeah, that's true, and and and she and she can do a lot with a little as can like a lot of prestige actors, and like these franchises, Um, it is kind of wild though that spoiler alert, like in the post credit scene, like she's like, yeah, and Chadwick knocked me up and left me on this island and like here's my son. I was like, what the fuck? Like

another yell. That also reminded me just how long it's been since the first Black Panther came out in eighteen and I don't know when what kinda forever was originally supposed to be rolled out, like because what kind of forever?

Is the official end of phase four? Like this is now the end of sort of the post end game fall, and now now we're in phase five as you can see with them laying things in the ground, like the Julia Louis Driver's character, who that might have been My only like real complaint with this movie is I just

every part with her and Martin Freeman. As much as I like Martin Freeman and as much as I love Julie Louis Dreyfus, really took me out of the movie and like, I mean, she's she's so funny, but she felt so out of place and even like the streak of gray in her hair, which I'm sure is like what she looks like in the comic books, and it's some sort of like nod to that stylistically, it just looked world work with her. No. Also, this movie was very badly lit and was so dark, especially the underwater

scenes so dark. I just like, maybe they're going for some kind of realism, but this is comic book movie, babe, turn the lights. Yeah, realism, honey, Like, uh, these are mermaids. Um, you know what are mermaids? Let let it be said. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, like I'm never unhappy to

watch Julia Louis Drifus on screen. But yeah, when Marvel is Marveling, like just for the sake of like reading all of these movies together, it's like, those are things that we would cut out of if this was not a Marvel movie, it was any other movie, like these would be chop chop chop. I just wanted her to say, it's me, um wait, I have a I have another spoilery question for you. Spoiler spoiler, Did Angela Bassa have to die. I do think, so you do. I do

think she had to die. But I didn't like was that her death was given kind of the same weight as Naymours, like random minion being killed, like there's things are not my sister or something. It was it was one of his relatives, but like he's a fish, so he has like seven sisters, you know what I mean? Like, oh, okay, this is like only kind of tangentially related to Black Panther. But I did come up with a sort of wild

conspiracy theory. Okay. So I saw this movie with a friend of the podcast him Mitchell, and we were talking about how a year or two ago, there was so much conversation about Letitia Right being an anti vaxer and it was so loud, but it really kind of disappeared, especially in the lead up to this film. I feel like I did not see a lot of big stories about it. I know that very recently she has kind of come out and like disavowed it and also disavowed a priest she was connected with who has a lot

of homophobic and transphobic views. Anyway, I'm just was so shocked that there wasn't a bigger like fur around, especially the anti Baxtor of it all, and I was also thinking about how that wasn't really a big part of the conversation when Death on the Nile came out at the beginning of this year, which she was also in, and then I started thinking, you know, Disney is really evil and they knew that Sherry you know, was going to be the lead in this movie and that they

had to you know, sort of protect their investment. And my conspiracy is that Disney is behind the outing of Armie Hammer as a cannibal as a way to draw fire from Letitia during the Death on the Nile pressed or to sort of set the stage for her to be able to get through that without any like journalists asking her questions during interviews, because all the heat was on Army, so that by the time Black Panther came out,

we had already kind of moved on from it. That's my like Galaxy brain but also brain worms conspiracy theory. The versions can see it with my jaw is dropped. Um, you need to put that on TikTok immediately. I mean, there's that's crazy. There's it's very it's very like there's no actual real logic involved in it. Um. But at least what I think is some publicist at least brought it up as an option at some point. Oh for sure.

I mean the Devil works hard, but Marvel pr works hard, Disney pr because that's what I'll back to the House of Mouse, Yes house, not the House of Mouse. Um. I was going to remark on and often heard complaint on this podcast. Can we talk about the blink and you missed it? Gay kiss in this movie that I I didn't even see. Oh I saw it. It was, but it was it was just like a head kiss. I had a forehead kiss. I'm so really kiss in foreheads.

And also like for this movie, what a waste of MICHAELA. Cole, Like we could have had michaela scenes instead of like these Martin Freedman scenes, and like I was just like, where was mickay La? Yeah? But I you know, I do think at least there was enough of the things that I liked in the movie to make up for they're not being enough of the things that I wanted more of. I'm excited for what's next, though, I do. I will say I did not think that Angela Bassa

needed to die. That was my primary complaint. And and that's just because selfishly I want to see her in every movie. And but she got so much to do before she died. Like I was so happy that we had so much time for her in this film. She got some action scenes, she got a lot of great you know monologue, and people are like, she's going to get an Oscar nomination, which is like a girl, that's not happening. But I mean, but not to be a bitch though, but like, there are so many other characters

to kill that Angela Bassett, but they wouldn't. But it wouldn't have been narratively satisfying. You have to think about the story you're telling. I disagree. I think like a Koya, if they had killed a Koya. There there are a few people where I was like, no, no, no, Sherry had to be at her lowest. She had to be a fat, nasty and broke. She had to come on this bitch matt as hell. I loved the lesson at the end. I wish that we could have seen Shary be a little evil like obviously she was really dark

the whole film. I wanted her to make a crucially dark mistake in killing someone. I guess like, wasn't it more as like little, wasn't it more kind of her fault? But it was more mine, It was more Lupida's fault because she needed to rescue Sherry. I would have liked to see just more of Sharry as the black Panther because it's like she she was doing lines of the heart shaped a herb or you know whatever the fuck.

Um she micro dosed and then she like immediately not only has the powers but kind of the skill to use them. And like, I get that this movie couldn't be another origin story, but I just would have liked more time with her being superpowered and not kind of all of her like stepping into that mantle happening very quickly or kind of off screen. But the fight sequences and like action were fun and like didn't get in the way of still telling a very emotional story. Yeah,

I totally agree, speaking of emotional stories. Did you try to get Taylor Swift tickets this weekend? Um? I did not try to get Taylor Swift tickets because I just well, you know, like I don't super care about seeing live music, and I also just like didn't want to deal with what I knew was going to be the nightmare of um, you know, getting tickets for that show. Never could I even have imagined the true nightmare would become though, Oh

my god. I mean the versions can read up on like all the drama that went down about how like people basically like couldn't get tickets and ticket Master had to cancel its actual on sale date because of lack of quantity. But like I I wanted to bring it up because we have a lot of swift ease on the pot on like on the pod who are listening, and I feel like pressure needs to be applied because Taylor Swift statement on this was so nothing, It was

so absolutely nothing. She put all the blame on ticket Master and was like, yes, oh my god, it sucks that you couldn't get tickets for the concert. Yeah, and like, obviously she can do her part in like ad shows, but like it's not even like it's not even like I want her to take blame. It's that she is the most powerful artist on the planet to some degree. When Taylor Swift expressed her very first political opinion about that fucking you know governor in Tennessee or I don't

even remember whatever, the fucktive. Yeah, representative, thank you. More people registered to vote in a single day than in any other day in the history of this country. Like that is obscene. She can move bodies to create actual, tangible change in a way that could fundamentally change things for all of these other artists in the industry. And it makes me angry that her kind of very tepid response to Ticketmaster was ultimately a display of her allegiance

to capital and her relationship with Ticketmaster. If she was on her ship, she would say, Hey, this is fucked Ticketmaster and Live n should never should have merged. This is an illegal monopoly that has now created problems for artists, independent artists across the board, and now my fans. So this is personal to me. Break Ticketmaster up and change this fucking ship like Taylor is. If any artist could

do that and actually have an impact, it would be Taylor. Well, now the Justice Department is investigating Ticketmaster, and yes, of course we wish that Taylor would have gotten involved herself, but like I just I'm not going to expect that of celebrities who want to make as much money as possible, and like there are no perfect celebrities like I certainly don't think Taylor is a perfect celebrity, and nor do I expect her to be one. I kind of like

like her music and keep it pushing from there. But Swifties are powerful and because of them, this this could change. And I saw something that was like, Swifties, can you tackle racism and abortion next? No, Actually, swift these are smart and are great organizers, and like, come on, let's fucking change something. Um. I heard that you finally uh dove into miss Emelda Stanton. Yeah. I started season five

of The Crown. Um, I'm only an episode in, um, but I am seeing kind of right off the bat a lot of what I've seen people talking about about how it's gotten very soapy in a way that it never was before. Um. But I have to say, Eliza, I do want Elizabeth Debecky to step on me. Me. Stans is incredible as always. I was so happy to see what's her face? Mrs Harris goes to Paris as Princess Margaret. That's Mrs Harris goes to Paris. What's what's

her name? Oh Leslie Manfelt as Princess Margaret? Who I just you know, I loved that the season started with you know, Clara Fhoy coming back to do to do young Queen Elizabeth as she always does. But it just made me remember how incredible those first seasons of The Crown War and listen, I love The Crown. I will keep watching it until it ends. But those first seasons, you know, Claire Foy put her whole pussy into that role. Vanessa Vanessa Kirby as Princess Margaret was so incredible. I

love Vanessa Kirby. I wish she wasn't just relegated to like those weird like Fast and the Furious spin off movies, although I am always happy to see her in the Mission Possible movies. She I didn't even know she was in either of those, but I didn't really know who she was, but like, she's so good in the series. Yeah, she's that's my I mean, of course I also love Helena Bottom carter Um, but that's my Princess Margaret Um. Yeah,

I'm you know, I'm enjoying it. And it just I like held off on it for so long because I was like, oh, I'm not in the right headspace, Like it's so serious, it's so dramatic. And then as soon as they started watching I was like, I want to sit here for the next ten hours and and just

watch this show. Yeah, I'm do wish like it's this This season in particular is like not as like fun like for lack of a better word, right now, um as like previous seasons like there's less like kind of sometimes like I enjoy the hijinks of the royal family and this one deals with a lot of like heavy

subject matter. But yeah, I mean, Elizabeth Debecci is like eyeliner alone, like they knew what they were doing with the eyeliner, Like come on, I'm also so happy that they I mean, Netflix even tweeted something about this, that the Crown let Elizabeth Debeccy be tall, and I do appreciate. I do appreciate that they don't have everyone around her like standing on you know, like blocks and like with lifts in their shoes, and that she just is taller

than everyone. If if they had c G, i'd everyone taller like like Tom like no, like Gandalf in the Hobbits like style, Oh my Godbeth Debecci should play what if they what if they actually like reconstructed the entirety of the Crown set to appear physically bigger, so that I love that. Elizabeth Debecci should be in season two Rings of Power. Um, if that happens, don't even with me that Like literally, anyone like that I recognize in

Rings of Power would be great. But Elizabeth Debecci and Rings of Power, Damn, Elizabeth Debeccy should be in the House of the Dragon. She should be a targe Arian. Yeah, that's actually much more worthy for for for her. Tom. I still have not finished Drings of Power. I don't know if I ever will. Uh, you know what, actually like,

holidays are perfect time to finish it. Holidays off holidays are when I'm going to do my annual Lord of rewatch and kind of and honestly kind of the last thing I'm gonna want to do after that is watching Watchings of Power. That's kind of that's kind of tea. You could like put it on background while you're, you know, making a pie or something. I don't make pies. I hate that, I was so The Chronicles of Narnia is a fantasy series written by C. S. Lewis. Heard of it?

Heard of it? Yes? It was one of the few things I was allowed to consume growing up because it's super Christian, Because it's extremely extremely Christian, I would I would wager to say that it is uncreatively Christian. Like C. S. Lewis was lifting plot points from the Bible and just putting them on the page. He plagiarized the God, God, God herself. Yes, I also read the books as a kid. I think though, that my intro to the world of

Narnia was specifically the nine animated movie as well. I think I've talked about this before that when I was a kid growing up, my dad was a librarian at a middle school, and I definitely remember him bringing home the vhs of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, the animated movie, so I could watch it, and I think I like stole it. So he never brought it back. Love you never got fined. No, he was the librarian. What was it gonna do? Wow, I got away with it. Um.

That movie is stunning, so beautiful. The White Witch in that movie is so fierce, the diva doll herself, God her. She has like this beautiful fur coat and like a skull cap kind of ye with a crown on top up of the skull cap. Yes, iconic, It's a huge knife, yeah, and very like grinch like, fluctuant facial expressions like sometimes she's soft and supple and queen, like another time she looks like a demon. Well, I think also part of

that is that the animation is not great. Well, it's not great because it's from but it's actually really beautiful and how old it is I feel, and there was some very good animation made long before. Have you ever heard of Walt Disney Studios. No, I'm realizing that you're talking about the kind of frames, the pick images per frame. It's choppy, yes, it's choppy, yes, but it's beautiful. It is beautiful, and I love that version of it. And so from there I went and read the book series, um,

the Chronicles of Narnia. So for for virgins out there, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is technically the second book in the series, The Chronicles of Narnia, the only book most people recognize, but it was the It was the first one that was released, and that in nineteen fifty by C. S. Lewis, and then he went back and wrote the first book, The Magician's Nephew, and then all of the sequels that come after the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Did you are seven books

in total? Yeah? Um, have you read all of them? No? I have read I think three of them and retained none of them. I feel like I definitely I might have reread Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe because um, as a kid, we used to listen to the audio book and stuff like audio books of them are so good. But like we because my family like this is the this is the kind of fantasy and our mainstream culture that we could like indulge in because it was so Christian like so so Christians, which I did not get

at first. I thought it was just fantastical. And that's why it's a great gateway drug to Christianity. I suppose it. Really, it really is. And I let me tell you had the reverse experience of course, like for me Narnia rather Yeah. Actually Narnia and Christianity were inextricable. There was no way I could consume Lyne, the Witch and the Wardrobe without thinking about God. Wow. I didn't get any of the

Jesus stuff, even though it's so obvious. So when you go back and look at it all, I mean, you know, um, so my so I did read all the books at one point. The only ones that have really stuck with me are obviously in the line The Witch and the Wardrobe, because it is the best. I also love The Magician's Nephew because it gives you the origin story of both Narnia and of the White Witch Jadis. Do you remember

any of it like I? I unfortunately don't remember the so so the plot of The Magician's Nephew is, there's this boy whose uncle is a magician. It is called the Magician's Nephew, and with he, he and his friend Poppy, I believe, find their way into this place called the Wood between the Worlds, which is the way you get into all these different universes, and they find their way into this world called charn which is the homeworld of Jadis,

who becomes the White Witch. And the story with her is that she and her sister were in this like fierce battle for the crown um but they they said they were not going to use magic to get the crown, but then a Jadis's sister did, and they were like they were kind of like about to destroy each other. And Jadis had this um like little secret gag up sleeve which was called the deplorable word, and what the deplorable word would do already sounds christian would destroy everyone

in the entire world except her. Oh my god, And so at the last moment she used it, everyone in the world is storied, so by default she becomes queen. But she's like queen of nothing. So what she decides to do is use magic to preserve herself until someone

comes along and rings a bell and unleashes her. And so obviously the first thing these kids do when they go to her world is ring a bell and she comes back to life, and then she kind of um hitches a ride with them back to the Wood between the Worlds where like her powers don't really work there and she gets kind of sick, and then they take

her to Earth. She kind of tries to take over Earth, but it doesn't really work out, and then finally they're able to get her back into the Wood between the Worlds. Before that, she like breaks off a lamp post in London, and then she takes that lamp post. They all make their way into Narnia as Narnia is being created by as Land, and the Itch tries to throw the lamppost at as Land and it plants on the ground and grows into the lamppost from the lion the witch on

the wardrobe. Oh my god, I mean he that that's such a gag. Now that that makes me actually want to revisit the first one. It's so good and and that's you know, so that that quote that that is a meme like, do not cite the deep magic to me, which I was there when it was written, is referencing the fact that both the White Witch and as Len were there when Narnia was created, and so that's why

they both know like the rules of the universe. And also that's where you see even more of the Bible, the biblical stuff coming in, because Jadis eats an apple from a tree that gives her everlasting life. Of course, of course she tries to talk the titular magician's nephew into eating the apple, but he doesn't do it, and that the magician's nephew is the boy who grows up to be the old man who owns the house with

the wardrobe in it. Uh. Oh, now I understand. Okay, I'm actually so delighted that you summarize that for me, because I truly retained nothing and I'm such a nerd. You really are, I'm not going to lie. But it's also impressive that you're able to retain so much about like huge world they're written eons ago, but nothing about like what we recorded one hour ago. Well one thing

is important in one thing. Um. I a lot that was in conversation around C. S. Lewis um when we were reading the books as kids are, like when I was consuming the ship was like the relationship between him and Tolkien, which I feel like we talked about it. Do you think they were a second No, I think well they were, obviously because I'm going to go on if there's any fiction about that. Obviously because this is like a virgin. Of course we think that they're sucking

and fucking. But if in my heart of hearts to actually think they were so so repressed, and I feel like the vibe between them. I've read a lot about their relationship, and the vibe kind of was like C. S. Lewis like takes a lot of credit for helping like be the what they called the midwife for Tolkien's worlds. Like they say that like Tolkien never would have finished his work if like C. S. Lewis didn't bring him

home or like encourage him all along the way. But I was also like, girl, your work suffered because of it, because like no offense, like love Chronics Narnia, but like the Chronicles of Narnia compared to Tolkien rose like nothing like C. S. Lewis is out here being like this line talks and like this line is also Jesus Christ. You get it. And Tolkien is like, how many languages have you written? But but one is for children and one is not. Okay, I mean there's violence in these

books too. It's like some of the you know, it's not a children no, but these but they are children's stories. And although you know, Tolkien also wrote The Hobbit as a book for children, but then as his children grew up, you know, he wanted to advance the idea of the quote unquote fairy story into something that could be consumed by adults, because that wasn't really something that existed at that time. Um. You know, they they are so obviously contemporaries,

and you know their works. I think when we think about the legacy of fantasy are the ones that are the most in conversation with each other. And they were literally and they definitely sucked each other off. Yeah, I mean they were working on these like literal fan fictions, like working on their own little fan fictions, like in like a fucking gay bar together. I mean it wasn't a gay bar, but it was called the Eagle in

the Child, which is a ry like it's gay. I didn't get too deep into this, but apparently they had a falling out. They were because they broke up. Yes, I think they had. You heard it here first j R. O. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis, We're boyfriends, how to break up? And the rest is her story. But according to Tolkiene, like their relationship only lasted I think like twelve years or so, and then after that they had a very fierce like falling out. I think because C. S. Lewis

apparently took a job at Okay, wait wait, took a lover. Yes, Lewis left Oxford and took a job as the chair of Medieval and Renaissance Literature nerd at Cambridge. And I think that they personally said they had fundamental like differing beliefs about like what should be taught in the cannon. And I believe Louis was the one that's like we should be teaching things that are like a little more not contemporary, because they didn't. Neither of them believe in

contemporary literature. But I think that like Tolkien was like nothing outside of the Canterbury Hills, it's like relevant, like it is only Middle English. No, Middle English is so fucking boring and not relevant at all to like today's society. And I actually think it should be extract like completely expunged from literary canons of today. I think that we as a society should decimate anything in Middle English and it's not relevant. Where is the sad gay period drama

about Tolken and Louis's love affair. It's probably on a O three. I'm gonna write it and it will be man into my policeman's style, yeah, or maybe like a BBC miniseries. Okay, So if you think they broke up, what is the true story of their break up? If this is the Wikipedia version, what's the true story? Um that they were both tops? No, they were both bottoms. No, I don't believe in those binaries. I think that Tolken was into some like real gross orcship and Lewis was

very kind of pure. Yeah, like wanted to commit to the bit but couldn't really. You know. Also, Tolkien had children, so maybe he wanted he wanted, you know, he wanted to live in the straight world. Lewis was just his childless fag friends and C. S. Lewis, you know, I don't know, actually a C. S. Lewis had children. I would imagine he did. It seems like he would. Um, it seems like a thing he would. I'm just gonna

say they just had some like Drap McQueen breakup. They loved each other, but it didn't work out, And who knows, maybe if it weren't for you know, the society that you know wouldn't let them be together, maybe they would have. Or maybe they were just petty and jealous of each

other's work, which is like what I think happened. I think they were both jealous of each other's work because like if Tolkien credited Lewis to helping him create this like big thing, like would that not create strain on their relationship, Like if someone was helping you through years and years and years like birth this like massive franchise

level epic. Sure, but of course they would grow to hate each other but you know what, at the end of the day, they were both um white men who are dead and bald and bald wigs snatch and let's talk about talk about the diva's they created. So we talked a little bit about the White Witch. Okay, there's also Aslan, who is you know, the Jesus figure. Talk about a stunt queen. I definitely wanted to fuck Aslan and pretty much every version of The Lion, the Witch

and the Wardrobe that's been made. Aslan is objectively hot, but like played by Liam Neeson a little on the nose, like they knew how hot Aslan was. Yeah, the set, Yes, let's let's see if there's Aslin move face upport x x X what is it? Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, I've gone too far. If you are scandalized that anyway, that's saying something as Lands very hot. Also, okay, so let's talk about the movie franchise. Um, So, The Lion, The Witch and the

Wardrobe film series the Saga. The franchise came out in two thousand five. I think that's probably how most people of our generation and younger were introduced to it. This was sort of like post Harry Potter post Lord of the Rings. I think studios realizing that there was a first for you know, fantasy, I p and um. I love the two thousand and five film. I think it's so good. It gave the world several people. It gave us James McAvoy this was his breakout? What? Yeah? This

is his breakout? Yeah? Girl, what else did you think it was? I'm freaking out. I thought he was an established actor by this. No, this was his big bready. It was also Tilda Swinton's big break That's also crazy. I did not know that either. That's crazy to me. Wow, and they Winton just Winton wear with dreadlocks. I mean, okay, but can we also can we just talk about the production design in general. I rewatched this movie for the record, so it's fresh on my mind. Stunning. It's like beautiful,

beautiful film. I remembered it being kind of generic, and when I watched, I was like, every single aim is actually like better than most of what I watched. And Rings of Power, my god, the moment where Lucy pulls the sheet off the wardrobe. I mean, honestly, everything the Queen wears is so stunning. Aside from the dreads, but like the fact that her icicle crown gets slowly smaller,

does the world melt well? I do kind of a gag like I do get sad when the winter goes away, because I think that's the countiest part of the movie. It's a really county and it's also what you remember when you think of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, which is why it's canonically a Christmas film. It is well, I mean, Santa is literally a character in the movie. Just so once again loser behavior from C. S. Lewis.

I think like writing Santa into your story, bro and Tolkien is over here creating like worlds of like orcs and elves and author languages like you wrote Santa. But I do also think that Santa in the movie hot. I was waiting for you to say it, he's a daddy. Yeah. Watching a lot of like fantasy stuff that we watched today when it whether it's like Marvel or like any sort of like you know, original they make a live action Snow White movie or all these other things they're

trying to like make from original. I p it's like it feels regurgitated. A lot of it or it feels like a rushed job. And there's something about this that just feels so it felt so fresh, and I think that, well, it's also all practical, like now we live in the era of everything is c G I and this is it's even if it's all on sound stages, which I'm sure it all is. Like outside of Aslan and some of the end the other like talking animal characters, this

is a world that feels tangible. Well, actually, the war is all c G I and and and at the end of the line, the Witch and the wardrobe and I actually but I actually think it's kind of fine because they gave us everything else, you know what I mean, like and I think a lot of that, you know, a lot of like what I I just honestly was watching this and I was like, if you told I mean, the c G is like a little but like if you had told me it came out two years ago,

I would believe you. But that's how stunning it was. That moment when all the Pevenses walk through the wardrobe for the first time into Narnia into the snow, like that captures something about childhood and the ability for regular things to become extraordinary, like in a way that is so profound, and you could tell that the person don't even know who made this movie, but like you could tell that there was a love for the story. And I also felt like, who ever made this movie how

to love for the animated movie. There's a lot of things that imagistically replicate what the nineteen seventy nine just little hints here and there, like what the nineteen seventy nine movie did, And I love that because it was still reinterpreted. Right, Yeah, well, probably all the different adaptations are somewhat in conversation with each other. Have you ever seen the BBC mini series from that from the late eighties? Does it do all of the books? Yeah? All of them?

Did you? Yeah? I watched them. I definitely watched The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe more than any of the other ones. But I have seen all of them. They're not my favorites. So of the film annotations that started in two thousand and five, there were two sequels, Prince Caspian and The Voyage of the Dawn Treader for Flops, which were kind of flops, although they did in reduced Ben Barnes to the world that was he was in that Netflix show Shadow and Bone. He has been in

a lot of stuff. He's like a hunky British guy. He also is a very popular fan cast for a young,

serious black Oh and I think he's super sexy. Um. There were plans for a fourth movie, The Silver Chair, which is I think one of the better books and also well, something the movies did was Tilda Swinton appeared in all of the sequels, even though even though after The White which is killed, like they make allusions to her, and um, they knew how much she carried well either even in I don't remember if it's in Prince Caspian our Voyage of the down Treader, but in one of

them they attempt to resurrect her and so she comes back, and that is in the book, but it's like they talk about it, they don't actually do it. But like, if you got Tilda, you're gonna use Tilda, yeah, which is kind of like, I mean, I'm sure they just wanted to like get these kids in movies as fast as they could before they like went fully through puberty, even though they kind of did, but like they really should have just gone straight to Magician's nephew because that

to me. I know, I wish there was a magician's nephew movies so badly so um. It was announced a couple of years ago that Netflix had bought their rights to UM Narnia and they were going to make either a series or films series. It's still in development. There hasn't been really any news on it. I think maybe like COVID slowed down the plans, but hopefully it happens one day. I wonder I would love to see it.

I wonder how Narnia. I mean, like two five wasn't that long ago, but culturally it's kind of ago, and I wonder how receptive the world might be now to something that is so explicitly Christian, like, well, it's it's so pure, and yeah, it's so pure. And the thing about all fantasy media now is that it has to have a level of meta nous to it. It has to be commenting on what fantasy is in the modern era.

And that's why, you know, we have something like The Magicians, which is a book series by Love Grossman that was turned into a TV series on sci fi that is very and I'm not using this word negatively derivative of chronicles of Narnia because it's a book that sort of remixes Narnia and Harry Potter in this way, it's a

little Harry Potter too. So um, if you have never read the books or watched the TV show, it's about um this guy Quentin who's like very depress ust and gets into a magical college and the books and then grad school in the TV show, and he also had a childhood obsession with a series of novels that are a stand in for Narnia, but the world is called Phillery in the Magicians, and after he goes to magic school, he discovers that Philery is actually a real place and

he and his friends go there and it's so meta, like to a crazy extent, And it's basically like the whole idea of the series is what if you were like super obsessed with fantasy and that thing that people are obsessed with fantasy, that that idea you have that like, oh, one day, I'll like walk into a wardrobe and it will take me into Narnia. Like what if that actually happened? And would that actually make you any happier than you were before or would you still just like be depressed

but you would be in a magical world. Those are the themes that I like want to see if the if like it's ever made into if like Narnia has ever made into a series. Right, it feels like The Magicians was kind of like the the adultification of some of these like tropes and themes, because I think, you know, the stories are actually like they have violence in them, like or at least the ones that I read like

had violence in them more like adult themes or whatever. Um. But there's room for it to go all the way if it wanted to. But you know, I'm sure they would never because they would if if Netflix or whoever ever made this again, they probably want to prioritize like a family Christmas movie. Well. Also, I'm sure that whoever controls the rights to the books, like I'm sure there's like a C. S. Lewis Foundation, they probably have very

strict guidelines in place about how these novels can be adapted. Wait, we should talk about that because I feel like the morality, this is something that we spoke about when we were talking through our like Rings of Power recaps, that you know, the morality and the kind of good versus bad thing that exists in Lord of the Rings is like cranked up to the inst degree in the world of Narnia, like almost to a to a problematic level, like something um I have. Oh that some people talk about is Susan,

who is one of the Pavency children. I don't know if you've ever heard of this, but there's a short story that Neil Gaiman wrote called the Problem of Susan. Because so the ending of the books is really fucked up.

I don't know if you're if you know. So in the last book you find out that all the Peavency children died in a train accident and they all go to basically like heaven in Narnia, and and it's supposed to be like a good thing that they're all dead, but they're together in heaven, except Susan doesn't get to go.

And the reasoning that as Land gives them is because she had become obsessed with like makeup and boys and stuff and had become like super jaded, and so she didn't get to go to heaven with her dead family. And oh, my god, now I need to read you

have to so this. In this short story, it's about a student who's interviewing a professor of like children's literature, and the professor actually is Susan all grown up, and there's like some really great scenes of um, you know, there's like this part where she talks about as Land fucking the White Witch, and it's just like it's super fucked up, and it's just like really great commentary on you know, the like very kind of pucked up morality of C. S. Lewis and and the way that he

did not treat especially the female character as well. You know, they were either very pure children or evil witches and they're kind of was no in between for women, kind of the same way that for Tolkien it was either

like Galadriel or nothing. And it must be said that they had this C. S. Lewis Untilkien had like a writing group called like the Inklings or something faggy like that, and they would not allow women in this writers They were all fucking and I mean it was also like I think that like Oxford didn't like allow like a woman to like study their until like ny or something like that. But like it's still just like it's stupid.

It's so clear what their worlds were. I'm actually shook that there are even like women characters in like Narnia, but like, let's I want to talk about the morality like a little bit more because Aslan is as Jesus is so ham fisted, and I think it's really interesting that Aslan is kind of like one of those characters, one of those like all seeing, all powerful characters that has tons of information that would be helpful to the rest of the characters, but withholds it for no reason,

like a Dumbledore or a Gandalf or you know, but like no one it's never explained why Aslin disappeared for ages and let like Narnia become always winter, never Christmas, you know what I mean. I'm sure that's explained, like in the actual mythology of it, but like it's so funny. It's like and also um, like when Aslan sacrifices, well, when he's crucified, like literally crucified like Jesus, like he never explains to anyone why it's happening. I mean he well,

he doesn't explain it only after happening. He explains it all after. It's like at any point he could tell anybody in this story like hey, don't worry, I'm gonna get die. But I'm gonna come back in like twenty four hours. Like it's chill. But like the crucifixion scene, like we have to say, like chriscifixion is hot. Well, he doesn't get a crucified, he gets stabbed, he gets on the stone table. Yes, but he's crucified. He's he's crucified, period,

Like that's crucifixion. Crucifixion is like a communal killing of someone on the basis of like sin Pennant. So does that not have to actually be on a cross? Um No, I mean like it's crucial. I mean it is, yeah, on a cross, but it is a crucifix like it's a crucifixion, like it's it's literally nothing else like the ritual sacrifice. Yes, and but instead of across is a stone table, which is again another ham fisted metaphor for like whatever the cross was. But like it's I love

that they shaved him. They shaved as lab again, they gave him a makeover before they killed him. And then in the movie, um, the White Witch like wears his fur as part of her look when she charges it when she charges into battle at the end, which is so petty and also fierce it's a serve and she was like, hey, you goblin over here, take this hair and make me something aware tomorrow. Oh my god, that's such I didn't even realize that when it happened on screen.

Did you know that not only are there film adaptations and TV adaptations, there's also a musical adaptation of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. And do you want to know who might have appeared in a production of the Land of the Witch of the Wardrobe the musical when they were in medical school? Medical school, when they were in middle school? Oh my god, you yes. Do you want to know what role I played? Have I heard this word? Were you the narrator? No? I was. I

was the professor who owns the house. No, that's it. And you know what made it worse is that the professor. So the way that the show is written is that the professor and as Land are supposed to be played by this same actor, but they only cast me as the professor. But I have this song. I think it's maybe like the second song in the show, and it's called doors and Windows, and I do still remember it. No doors and windows open and close to high door exposed.

One just waiting for you. That's just a little intrigue. Um, wasn't good? Was a musical good? No? No, it wasn't. Admit is such a little ship like I mean, just the name Edmund. I mean, but yet another much like Susan, Yet another kid that is like literally a child, literally a child making a child's mistake, and like, yeah, but he like sells his whole family little Judas, Yes he is that. He is definitely the Judas for candy candy.

Have you ever had Turkish delight? Yes, that's not that good. No, No, when it's good, it's good to you. It's like it's like gelatine covered in powdered sugar. Honey. Literally all Turkish delight is honey. Yes that's true. But the thing is, it's about the flavoring. It's about the consistency. It's about how much gelatin you use right, because if you use too much gelatin, it gets really chilly, really gummy, really nasty. But if you do it really light, it's soft and

melts in your mouth. If you're using like the right ingredients and the right execution. Let me tell you, we need to go get something good Turkish. I do remember that when we did that production of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. At rehearsal, one day, someone's mom brought us Turkish delight to eat, and we were all expecting some kind of like we were expecting to have our minds blown. We're expecting to have our pussies rocks. And then someone opens his tin of like powdered gelatine

and we're like the fuck. It's an extremely British delicacy. Like Brits love like the taste of like some sort of like gummy thing that is flavored like perfume, like rose. Turkish light is disgusting, Like that sounds kind of good. Actually, oh, I hate the taste of rose, especially in gelatine. But Turkish light comes in so many different flavors. I don't funk with Turkish light that has nuts in it, or like pistachios. That's not like I don't like nuts and

gelatine combined. But um in the Borough Market in London Town ever heard of it? They, you know, there are I don't know if it's like this anymore, but when I, you know, was there, they were like huge like lanes and swaths that were just Turkish to live. So many ridles. I do love the way that she takes off her little potion and drops it onto the snow, and then the Turkish light just appears. Stunning, stunning, Tilda, stunning. This

is Tilda's best work. No, that's not true. This is a role that so actually I was about to say this is a role that only Tilda could do, but it's actually not true. A lot of action. No, I actually think it's specific to Tilda. No, I don't think that's I don't think that would you cast instead literally any fierce white woman to play the white wing. But I think Tilda has this like this alien quality to her.

But also a lot of those women have played witches who are kind of derivative of the way, which like Charlie's and The Huntsman, like Julianne Moore. There was some like weird fantasy movie that she played a witch in. Yeah, in Snow White as well another Snow White, um Angelina Jolie as Maleficent. Like Tilda's so good as a witch. I mean, if you you know that Suspiria is one of my favorite films and she plays a witch, and that I just think when I rewatched it, she's fear.

She's amazing, She's sublime. She does have the alien quality. But at the end of the day, I think it's a role that's easy to make fierce, like I, you know, like, and the production design does so much, not to de great her work, but it does so much work in addition to what she's doing. I don't know. I think she elevates the movie, and like, yes I can, it is elevated. Yes I can. I can look back and and say that some of that is my bias of just knowing who Tilda is, because I, you know, didn't

obviously when I saw this for the first time. But I do think she has this quality to her where she can do so much with just one look. Um. There's this one moment where after she has been plotting with Edmund and she sends him on his way to go like lure his family back to Narnia, she does this thing where she looks at him she goes, I'm gonna miss you so much, and it's just like it's

so good I forgotten. She has lots of little lines like that, like um, when she sends her wolf to go find the heaven ses, she goes, you know what to do? You know what to do. Um she every single second of that and the fight scenes Steva sher swords double swords. It's so fucking fierce a sigh being driven by polar bears. I don't know why I'm like shitting on Rings of Powers so much, but literally, like her with two swords is cooler than anything that happened

the entirety of like Rings of Power. You can't compete where you can't compare. Yeah, I'm sorry, Like, I'm just it made me. I is watching it, and I actually I turned it on to be a background watch, like I thought I was going to look at my phone or like clean the house or something, and I sat down because I was like, damn, I forgot how good this movie is. You know who I would love to see as the White Witch if um the like a new adaptation does end up happening. I think Michelleos the

White Witch would be incredible. I want to see her play a villain. Okay. Something that's like not really talked about is the fact that Mr Tumnus is like pretty rapey in that he is a full grown satyr who has brought this child into his home multiple and then like does love her to sleep essentially date rape. But the only thing so I guess what happens in that scene is he kind of thinks he's going to give her over to the witch and then has a kind of change of heart and decides he can't do it.

He can't. You gets turned to stone and that's why he gets turned to stone, which like, would you which God to the girl? You would you have turned her in? Yeah? For sure, because the White Witches kind of like fear, Like I would have been on her side totally. If I would have been team I would have been her. I would have been Yeah, I would have been team Asland. But if Asland has been gone for years, that sucks, like your leader to desert you like God, and he's God.

God has deserted you and then comes back. It's like, hey, I'm in charge again. By the way, Edmund, you are going to be crucified. J K, I'm going to crucify myself and take all the credit, like all the glory for that for sure. And the Witch's crew, I have to say, is so much cooler than the good side. Like you know when when they sacrifice as Land and they show up and all those like goblins and ghouls and stuff for like partying. That's like I've been to

parties that looked pretty much exactly like that. Yeah, Veil of Kashmir, Yeah, that was spectrum totally. It was giving berlin um and you know the like, Yeah, I like the centaurs and stuff like, they're kind of hot. Would you fuck a centaur or get sucked by a centaur? Well, if you're getting sucked my center, that's like sad some permanent damn it. Yeah, it's a lot of dick. We talked about this in our porn episode. But like the idea of wrecking my whole as I don't want to

yuck anybody's not my tea. I don't want to permanently alter my whole, and I think that with a center that is the case. Let me look up some center born. Well, if you ever watched the video to death to death, he died God, oh wow, oh my god, look at that. I forgot they died. That's so sad. He died following he died doing what he loved. To death my horn. What a way to go. Let me answer your question. Actually, realistically, no, in my fantasy world, getting funed by a center is

extremely hot. Humanoids very hot to me, centaurs and and and satyr's extremely hot to me. Giant horse cock. Yeah, but some which magical creature are you are you most interested in having sex with? I think it would be a center, if not an elf, but I feel like that's kind of cheating, But yeah, I think it would kind of be a humans. I think there's something. I think there's something really erotic about horses. This is why I was obsessed with equis as a kid. I actually

I'm a horse girl, not as a kid. As a college student, but I did you know that I took this is actually horse cock shop. This is a gag. Actually, I don't know if I've ever told you this. When I was in college, I enrolled and took a full course on horses throughout literature, and I wrote my term yes, and I wrote my turn this is a horse girl podcast. Yes.

And I wrote my paper on the kind of thematic um importance of horses in the Lord of the Rings franchise and followed like several yes, and I followed a few different horses through the franchise about like and what their meanings were whatever. And my horse teacher, I thought it was so good that she submitted my essay for a contest that I won contest Shadow Facts King of the Horses. Oh my god, I have so many virgins. This has just evolved into us looking at Oh my god.

I love that we can find a way to turn children's fantasy literature into the conversation about fantasy horse cock slide into our d M s at Like a Virgin tell us, um, are you a lion, a witch, or a wardrobe? Which one do you identify? A wardrobe? For sure? I'm a witch and if Phoebe is a lion, yeah, you are a lion? Okay, and um next week we will be back with a discussion about everyone's favorite lesbian

Christmas film, Carol. Thank god, finally it's it's time to talk about The Girls, the most important Christmas movie ever made ever. So until then, you know, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us out so much. I'm your co host, Rose Damn You. You can find me anywhere online at Rose Damn You, and I'm Franterata. You can find me at Friends, Squish, go anywhere you like.

Subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcast to leave us a rating, on Spotify for a review on Apple Podcast, we appreciate it so much like a Virgin is an I Heart radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Just Crane Chitch and Nikki Etre Until next week goodbye for now. The center is pussy looks like an egg bag. Literally loves the way she's holding her boob because it's it's so big. It's so happy that she has just it's

just to suspend. Yes, yes, I love just to stand on a bucket to fund this center, because the center is so big.