The Alanis of Drag (feat. Charlene Incarnate)

to be the songstress of Like a Vision? Today we'll be taking a look back at Atlantis Morrisett's Jagged Little Pill, because this is like a Virgin, the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's taste. I'm Rose Damn and I'm Fran Toronto here to talk about Jagged Little Hill. With us is show girl, high priestess, emphasis on high drag artist and Miga Judy, Charlene and Karnet. I will say, you know, Rose, before we have to get into Jagged

Little Pill. Should we go touday Nio? Yes, let's take a trip down the Nile? But will there be enough champagne? Yes? I actually brought enough champagne to fill the Nile. I have to say I'm kind of um gal gado. Stand now, girl, We are going to put you into G G. A.

Galagado holes and I wait. So this weekend, Fran and I saw Death on the Nile Um with our friend La La, and as we were walking out, we were, you know, doing that thing where you leave a movie and everyone's like starting to say what they wait, wait, wait, wait wait I have okay, I just have to say, like, I experienced this movie being like, this must be one of the worst movies I've seen in a minute. And that is and that is sort of the vibe you and Lala started to give off as we were leaving,

and I said, I loved it. And y'all, I thought you were going to not give me a ride home because of that. Our experiences of that movie were dramatically different, let's say that. And yeah, I was sitting next to you the whole time laughing, well because I was, I was, you know, making some commentary throughout the film, like when when spoiler alert, gal Gado is killed, I said, army hammer is going to go fire up the grill, Oh god, like very quickly. We have to just kind of like

you know, in the pot. Yeah. Yeah. So basically, gal Gado, you know, is a wealthy billionaire with a colonialist hobby for like, you know, exploring Egypt, and she and her mail order bride army Hammer decide to you know, invite like, okay, but you do, didn't You actually buried a very important part, which is that army Hammer who marries from getting there, I'm getting there, I'm getting Do not trust me at all? Do you not trust me? I don't trust you literally

at all. That is rich coming from someone who threatens to kill me almost every podcast. Yeah, and you know what, I would get away with it, and because because Pole is not coming to save you know, you would not get away with it because at the end of an Agatha Christie novel, the person who is most obviously the killer is the killer and there are hours of audio

recordings of me threatening to kill you. So anyways that they invite you know a few dozen of their like most mortal enemies to their wedding, and of course their wedding takes place on Zeni Um and there's like this kind of likes best friend played by an actress who I really love but only referred to her as baby Margot Rubbie Um keeps showing up at everywhere they go and just like staring at them, and so Armie Hammer and Gal Gadot put out a call to find what

is basically like the detective with the most absurdest steampunk mustache they could possibly find. And this detective accuses literally every single character of murder until he gets it right on the last try. Five people die and he outs to lesbians. Three people die. Um, he does out to lesbians forcibly. And I did think that at the end of the movie when they all like get off the boat, that he was going to be like, by the way, the police are here to arrest you. So okay, top line,

I loved it. I had a great time. I as I tried to explain to frand you know, this is not a thriller mystery with modern sensibilities. This is an Agatha Christie who done it. And the movies specifically are very much made for a kind of boomer sensibility, people who are familiar with Agatha Christie novels and want to see a very faithful, lush adaptation of them. And I guess I'm a boomer because I really enjoyed it. Well that's not that's not news to anybody. I really feel

like that I'm a boomer. Yeah, you're a boomer. You literally are no offense Rose. The movie delivered on what I signed up for during a completely displaced, kind of almost sex scene between Army Hammer and gal Gadot that takes place on an Egyptian ruin, because the Egyptian ruins.

That was great. The Egyptian ruins make them so horny, they literally cannot control themselves around all of these dead like mummies, and gal Gato like backs up on it, backs up as if she's like, she's like, do me doggy style literally, and that's not an exaggeration, and and gal is so it is so poorly blocked. They did maybe two takes and they were like, yeah, we got it. That look. That was just imagine Kenneth Brana directing that. Also, Man, I had never heard of Fran did not know who

Kenneth Branna was. I have talked about Kenneth Branna to a few other people and they didn't know who he was either. So I think that you're just exactly the demographic for Kenneth Brannah. Yeah, I'm a boomer, Yeah, exactly exactly when I signed When I signed up for a mystery, you would think that there would be you know, twists, turns,

red Herrings. Clues dropped along the way like scandalous like reveals and moments where like oh my god, and they were like three of those like there, Yeah, it doesn't really do that. There's the the miss The clues are not really telegraphed to the audience. And also, like let's say spoiler alert, the people who end up being the killers are like mostly it's it's like the most obvious choice for who done. And Rose can vouch for me. The first clue dropped, literally the very first clue with

that is, in my opinion, telegraphed to the audience. I turned to Rose and I said it's so and so and so and so, and Rose goes, well, and she was right like it would be way too obvious, and I was kind of like, yeah, it would be too obvious, and that your frand are you are the acu pire of our time? Okay, well, let me just grow out a super steampunk mustache. I will say I enjoyed all of the performances in this film, with the exception of

Russell Brands, which I thought was very flat. And then also there's a character name I thought, and Gal was kind of fun. I thought gal was so fun. I thought she was almost perfectly cast, like I think casting someone who's gorgeous and kind of bad acting, it's like perfect for a mystery. And all Tomargo Robbie was good. She was stunning. I felt like, you know, that was there was nothing wrong with like necessarily that. I thought

all the performances were good. I just thought it was a really poorly constructed movie that was completely like it was virtually joyless. Well, I was very I was filled with joy watching it, especially because of gal Gado's livery of and enough champagne to fill the nile, which was

as satisfying as I thought it would. Well. When we walked out of this movie, I was just stunned because I was like, I was like, we just watched a two hour like movie that was so so bad and the only reason we saw it was for one single tweet. Literally literally, I had no plans of seeing this, and I saw the video people reacting to that line on Twitter last week and was like, we have to go, we have to go, which we did decide what as we were watching drag Race last week, which I am

still so confused by this week's episode of drag Race. Why, I don't understand what the judges were thinking in their choices of the tops and bottoms and the winner. So I mean, if you don't watch drag Race this week, it was it was an unconventional materials design challenge and the looks were mostly bad, and one of the worst ones was the one that won. The look that Georgia

has made. How it's extremely obvious that this is like a tool of production and that they're trying to like stoke tensions between the queens by making them jealous and confused. It's like literally psychological warfare, and they are clearly not picking the winner so that they can just stir the pot. But this is drastic even for drag Race, because Georgia's look is so literally look at the material, yes, exactly, like look at the material. I would feel differently if

it was just one. But they gave positive critiques to like two or three of like the worst looks. Ever, I don't understand what the judges see and Desa I

don't either. That she was wearing curtain and all of her runways have been totally lackluster and she's a seamstress, and all of the looks that she She's always saying I made this, and it's like, well, you shouldn't have, because and she is one of the most like she's kind of one of the most like entitled, and like she's really like grumpy about a lot of things and like she but she's an amazing lip sinker. And I think that we were totally robbed of the experience of

Georgia's and Asia lip sinking to Sugar Mama. That would have been on real, that would have been unreal, and it would have been but Maddie, Maddie had to be in the bottom. No, I mean, and she had to go her time. I disagree. If I was in production, I would have been like, let's keep Maddie another week

because she's good for TV. Let's send Aja home and they're going to have a dope ass lip sync to Sugar Mama, Like that would have been incredible, Like and I want to see George's lip sync like five more times, and so does Rue like she keeps saying it, you know, yeah,

I do think. I do just think that, like the narrative of Maddie, like they probably felt like they had gotten everything they could out of it, because like even though there was like a lot of hubbub at the beginning of the season about her, like it didn't really continue. There wasn't a lot of drama around her being straight, and like, you know, she had a fight with Jasmine in Untucked this week, and so I think like they've gotten all the mileage they could out of her storyline.

But I do think, like I'm just so mystified because I really felt like a lot of the girls who were safe should have been in the top, especially Willow. I think she should have won. Her look was the best.

I thought Willow or Angeria should have won, and Jeria, Yeah, Anderia, Willow and Juria right now are definitely my front runners, Like I think they will be in the top three, unless I am worried that the screen time we're seeing around how like exhausted Willow is Like I wonder if that's threading a plot line that will like pay off in quotation marks with her like having to leave the competition, which would be horrible, you like, but you know drag races,

like they're so heavy handed with editing that that's my immediate fear. But I do think she can and should go all the way to them. I agree. I think that you and I are both rooting for Willow to win. To be honest, I mean, Anderia is worthy of the Wind, but like willows story in the Wind is like so good, and I do think that what Willow does is more singular, you know. And Geria has an excellency in the kind of pageant queen nous that she is. But we've never

seen a queen like Willow before. Angeria will be great on All Stars. Yeah, exactly seven or whatever number we're out now. Anyways, are you listening to the the new Competraus album. I have listened to slaptop Dara, ask your thoughts. Yeah, it's fun, you know, I don't think it's anything like groundbreaking.

It's also what like fifteen minutes long. I like the vibe of it because I like that it's like this dirty Berlin like house that is obviously reminiscent of the of her Halloween album, which is obviously her best album no skips, point blank period. But like, I think this album is like I mean, I think the first two songs,

which I consider basically one song, are like nice. I think not that Kim Petris has ever been a master of lyrics, but like the fact that every song is kind of this like gay idiot culture algorithm generated kind of like slut anthem. Yeah, it's like she she like went and took a bunch of tweets and put them set them to music. Yeah, and I know it's very aware of itself, like Kim is playing a cartoon. She knows exactly what she's doing, Like I see the character.

I just I wondered, like to what end this this like kind of music continues on, you know what I mean, Like I don't I see a point of view, and I think it's really funny. And there are certainly some kind of like Mimi bops, like I don't know if you saw that TikTok of like Kirby from like Nintendo, like sucking up a bunch of things to throat go. Have you seen that? It's very funny. Um, But yeah, I wonder how long she'll kind of keep that joke going.

I wonder, like who knows that she's in on the joke and who thinks that this is genuinely her music. It feels like it has the potential to pigeonhole her sort of the same way that doing her Halloween EPs, which I think are some of her best music kind of pigeon holed her as like spooky Halloween girl, But I don't think I think the thing. Actually, I think that no one has done that since like Michael Jackson's Thriller, you know what I mean, No one's dropping Halloween, you

know what I mean. I just wonder it's very singular. Yeah, I just wonder like where this is coming from, Like is it actually the music she wants to be making or has she felt like she's hitting a wall in terms of what her like mainstream kind of pop offerings

can do to advance her career. So she's like doubling down on being a kind of niche gay pop star two minute bimbo bops, you know the other pop girlies who are like in the Kim sphere, Charlie is making songs that I'm hearing on the radio, and like Caroline is getting all of this, you know, mainstream like you know, kind of credible music attention, and Kim is like making TikTok songs. Yeah that said, Coconuts slaps Love Love that single. And then of course you know there's still the stink

of Dr Luke wafting over it all. Yeah, okay. Also, Jasmine Sullivan released a deluxe version of Hotels Very Good. Obviously Hurt Me So Good, I think is the standout from it. And then also, do you ever listen to Ravenna? Ravenna is like she reminds me a little a little bit of like Corinne Bailey Ray, maybe like really early Solange at your record. Yeah, it's kind of like that. It's kind of like these really feel good R and B inspired, like positivity bops. They're kind of like self

care bops kind of. I think a lot of the songs are really wonderful as a as a total album, it just flows really nicely together. My favorite is Kathy Left Katman Do, which I think is just such a fun song. The album ends with a thirteen minute guided meditation, which, um, I mean, I won't be listening. I don't know if I definitely tells us who she is as an artist, but the rest of album is is wonderful. You know, Atlantis was actually a hip hop artist before Jagged Little Pill.

She was she was, And that's something that to know about Atlantis is that a part of what makes her not only one of the creators of one of the great rock albums of all time, but also a creator of one of the great gay albums of all time? Is that kind of first and foremost, she did want

to be famous. She was doing the grind. There's actually a lyric in her most recent album where she complains about how she's been working since she can remember, since she was single, digits um and so there was intention. There was an intention to be a star or someone of great significance or influence. Rather, well, that's something that's something that seems like it must have resonated for you, because I think you do everything you do with intention.

I mean, listeners, if you don't know her, our guest Charlene and Karnate is an incredible Brooklyn based performer, and as long as I have known you, I feel like everything you do is very intentional, like declaration of your

taste and point of view and identity. And so you're trying to draw parallels between Atlantis and I already at the top of the show, I am because because I do want to know, like what what was your when did you find So that's the thing, that's the that's the thing is like what a do you approach this conversation from? Because like I said, it's a great It was one of the great undeniably one of the great rock American rock albums, but also incidentally and curiously one

of the great gay albums. You know. I when I saw Atlanta's this summer at Jones Beach, it really unfolded for me, Like how hard she actually rocks and how like I wasn't expecting her fan base to like be a lot of straight people. I was expecting it to be dolls. And at Jones Beach, what was the vibe?

There were girls like me? I gotta say, they weren't like me, like in a girl like me kind of like I just mean, they were long haired, brunette women who dressed in a specific sort of bow way wherein they kind of like fancied themselves in Atlantis of sorts themselves. It was it was verging on cosplay. But they were all these like, you know, hot straight men that had like gotten the tickets for her their girl all and like it was date city and so yeah that how

was the experience of the concert, honey? I mean, what can I say aside from She's still got it. It's the twenty five year. This past summer was twenty five years of Jagged Little Pills. So she performed pretty much the whole album, not that she wouldn't anyway, because something that I also learned empathetically empathetically rather because I was so high, and I took the cue from Atlantis actually because in the most recent album she has a song

about doing assets. So I was like, whatever, she'll probably be on my level. And boy was she ever honey.

And I was like empathetically feeling not only like her energy performing in front of me, but also like her reconnecting to this music that she made five years ago, and like how it had like the journey it had taken her on, and how she related to it nowadays what songs she connected to more like really obviously and which one she was tired of was just like so apparent to me and like what she put into them.

And I have a whole new favorite track list from the album now after seeing her before, it was like it was all like she her voice is still she's got this really like iconic sort of yodeling thing. Um that's still like perfectly intact. And she did this thing where between numbers she would kind of like vocalize randomly in this like kind of operatic ethereal like um yodaly sort of way I can I can imagine it, like I'm getting about it. That's those were the parts that

made me cry in the show. It's because I was like, this is and she's just so gracious, She's so like

willing to accept her impact on the world. She realizes the magnitude of jagged Little pill, and she she's like, you know, like I look up to so many women who are creators, who like become like resentful of the things that made them, Like take a Dina Menzel another like she's she resents so deeply having been Alphaba and sort of like she was not hitting the note when she left the production on Broadway Girl, and then and these assholes actually keep giving her these notes. She can't

hit two? Did you did you ever hear her hit the note in the Frozen song once? She must have gotten it exactly once, and they and she's lucky to have been in the studio and they're like, all right, we got it, the kluck on the road bitch. And then they have her, they have her at the Oscars like with all of the other else's from around the

world to we're all hitting the notes. Yes, they were, well that was that was frozen two oscars right, Or then they have like remember the beginning of the pandemic, there was the video of all of the Alphaba's doing defined gravity, and like Adina very calculatedly comes in at a lower stakes part of the end a limited but then they have like forty different girls go wow, and you're like, when you hear that so many times in

a row, you're like, is Adina the Atlantis of musical theater? No, I don't think so, because of what he was just talking about how she's she's she's not gracious like Atlantis is. There's a grace to Atlantis that I think people that a novice will often miss because she's so often characterized as full of wrath and anger. And a lot of that has to do with the track you ought to Know from Jagged Little Pill and a few more others.

There's you ought to Know, which is personal grief and anger towards a person, and then there's right through you, which is a broader anger towards like men. I'd say, because I do think that her fury feels like righteous and cosmic and biblical in a way that I think is the reason why you ought to know is so personal for so many people because it is so specific, yet it transcends her specific situation and becomes like universal rage.

And I get what you're saying about her being this like almost this like spiritual figure of most and and and that was established from the jump with these tracks like this and and it's like these tracks are running the full gamut. Jackie Little Pill is successful in providing a comprehensive spectrum of the experience of womanhood. And in these tracks there is a comprehensive spectrum of all of

the things that make her full of wrath. There's anger, there's immense grief in the track too, you know, and there's sadness and sorrow that is very hard for you to strike a balance with as a as like a musician, I guess also lyrically, that's something that Atlantis is known for most in like you know, among like Rolling Stone or folks Circles is her lyrics. I love the track right through you because it's like she's just like belittle,

like she says, your shake is like a fish. And when I like again like then but not being ready when the Jaggon lot pill came out when I would hear my mom listen jaging little pill had here. Your shake is like a fish, And I thought AD meant that, like she like he makes gross milkshakes that tastes like fish or something, you know, But she's just like belittling

his manhood. You're you're like, you know, like the handshake is like the thing that the man is proud of, and like something that was like you know, beaten into me as a child too, is that I had to have a firm handshake, you know. And I just loved so much hearing like Atlantis like ship all over that and just like be be like like like you know, being me and woman, like a fierce woman is like

so far preferable to like whatever is going on there. Really, Yeah, she really cuts masculinity off at the knees in a way that you can't argue with. It's like she that album to me is the last word of a relationship,

of an argument. I feel like they're I mean something that I love about that lyric, and I guess the ethos of the album in general is like how guys saying like like firm handshakes and like my dad would say that to me, that's like how men like culture each other, and so for her to say it's like

such a a subversion of that. And I think that, like I love what you said at the beginning about like how this is like an a legacy of like gay albums because like you know, like Adam Lambert like always referencing like you know, Atlantis or like Perfume Genius or like all these folks that people that now have like a queer like something that's explicitly queer or gay, and like their albums come from this like thing that maybe it's not explicitly gay, but has the wrath that

um we all identify with so quickly when you are, you know, a teen or when you're consuming this album, I feel like it is explicitly gay sometimes, which just because it's like just the legacy that it has is so gay, Like there's there was a high priel at the concert. I love a good high prel. I think Atlantis this past tour, the Jagged Little fill Year Tour might oust Brittany Spears's Circus tour as my favorite hybrial.

Before the diva comes on stage, you know, they're like showing you a montage of flashes of iconic images, shoots and clips that the person has like gone through self made fan camp, and you realize watching the Atlantis one that all of these zeitgeist moments that she's had kind of have arisen from the narrative that she was writing in Jagged Little Pill, specifically like her part in the

movie Dogma where she plays God. Essentially Alan Rickman is the voice of God because if God speaks, then Havoc is wreaked, and so Atlantis is silent the whole movie because if she opens her mouth and like people's heads explode, etcetera. And so like to talk about a spiritual image like Atlantis as God who is capable of ripping, like you know, making the fact it's heads explodes, right or not facts,

but you know. And so that like wrathful thing was kind of like something that she was comfortable playing with. She was like acting the wrathful part also, And it's just funny because like Jacked Little Pill has so much more than that, and you can kind of see the story beginning of like the rest of Atlantis's career in that there's tracks like Perfect and Mary Jane, which are

very somber. They actually were the most, the tracks that she performed at the concert that I connected with the most, and the ones that I felt like she still has the best relationship to where these songs about like pain and like the the the horrors of womanhood basically, and Mary Jane is so sad. In the song Mary Jane, there's this lyric where she goes, I hear your using weight again, Mary Jane, you ever wonder who you're losing

it for? And when she's sang that, um, the screens flashed like different bodies that Atlantis has had, So there was like pregnant Atlantis, like depressed Atlantis, who was like larger than she usually was, like really real than Atlantis, who was like obviously like supposedly succumbing to whatever pressure

from being famous or whatever. And you saw how many different sizes this person has been and you realize in that moment that she wrote that at the beginning of her career, that she continued to like interplay with this as the career went on, and she's like still feeling the things that she felt when she wrote Mary Jane performing it in one whereas like with Ironic, she's like tossing to the crowd. She'll toss the mic to the crop, be like it's like a ray. You know, you don't

you don't hear her even say that part. I do want to know when, as you said, like when Jocked Little Pill came not maybe you were a little a little too young to really get it. But I have always like identified you with Atlantis and with this album specifically. Maybe that's because I know you so well. Maybe that's because like it's something that we've connected about. Um, but when did it really enter your life in a like substantial way and when did you kind of like form

some selfhood around it? You want to know the damnedest thing. It's weird, so weird you should ask that Rose because my first Atlantis track was actually thank You. That was the first time that I was like, And it's because I saw that music video with her naked body and her tips covered by that fucking long long as hair, and I that that image was steered into my brain and it's just so um, I guess uncanny the way that I have like modeled my like professional life and

like stage career after that image. Well, to me, it does feel so much of your right. Yeah, you are the Atlantis of drag Wow, Well, I don't even know I can drive home with this gas girl for sure. Um, it's not it's not unintentional, I guess. I mean I've always like it, appreciated her, like as a style icon. Atlantis kind of dresses like more of a pedestrian version of like natural born Killers, like Juliette Louis natural born Killers,

you know what I'm talking about. Just like there's like a level of Americana to it, but also like very like seventies kind of like hippie hair, lots of macromay and um like flares. Atlantis wears boot cut jeans. You know. There's also like a Nancy Botwin vibe going on. There's parallel. I think there's more parallels between Nancy Botwin or by extension, Mary Louise Parker and Atlantis than someone like a Dina and Alannas. Like if we're going for great brunettes, I

would put Atlantis and Mary Louise Parker together sooner. They have this enchantress quality about them. It's actually a Ryan Strait descriptive work for Mary Louise Parker the enchantress, because Mary Louise has this sort of like mccab cloud that follows her around. There's sort of this like dark figure

they were behind her. It also like Kate Bushy almost kind of like where there's like this ethereality or like powerful feat kind of well, Atlantis definitely is part of that lineage of like young songwriters who were like so precocious in putting out a work that it really encapsulates who they are as an artist, very young in their career, like very much in the way that Kate bush did with Hounds of Love. And I think you even see it in people like Taylor swift Um and honestly, like

Michelle Branch is a part of that. I feel like Avril is like in the legacy of like you know, it's like a you know, a completely different version, but like obviously comes from like an Atlantis Linit lineage. Well Atlantis really um. I think for our generation definitely created a mold that a lot of other artists tried to fit themselves into and very much like disrupted whatever was sort of the current pop star rock star role for women at the time. Yeah, like who was popular at

the time because I'm like Liz Fair. Oh yeah, I guess it was popular at the time. Maybe not well, she was supposed to actually open for Atlantis this past summer and dropped out of the tour for some ship could not be dick out of her mouth or whatever. P J. Harvey, It's like a contemporary Cheryl Crowe, but I think Cheryl Crows maybe post Atlantis. It's like a it was a very male dominated like Grateful Dead, Um

was like looping back on their careers. Like it feels like it was a very male I mean, everything is a male dominated space, but it sounds like obviously like rock like well, it's like it was Jack Jams was happening, So there's like there's like you know, kind of like

an infiltration of like harder electronic technical music happening. And then also at the same time, like uh, instrumentation in music is like really Forloren and slowed down, I guess, and um Atlantis is offering us a reprieve from that and also kind of like fitting into that mold at the same time, which Jack a little pill. But I think that that a that a key differences, whereas so many artists like struggled to Um break free of their mold,

like Avril was someone you just mentioned. I think a key differences, like Atlantis has had a very like truthful and authentic journey even artistically since that point, and people were more reluctant to let her. People still are reluctant to let her break free of you ought to know as a mood. Do you remember, I think this was when we were in high school. Um, the Jagged Little Pill acoustic rerelease for the anniversary. Yeah, and it was

at Starbucks. At Starbucks was a Starbucks exclusive, and it's it's really great to hear the reinterpretation. I'm going to go. And I remember, like the big moment that we all talked about. It was during Ironic when she says, it's like meeting the man of your dreams and then meeting his beautiful husband. And she still does that when she yeah, she still does that, I mean, and she goes on the concert, she goes so many times she was meeting it's meeting the man in my dreams then meeting miss

beautiful husband. So many times that was just like, yeah, fucking same girl. That's why it's a little more explicitly queer then that. It's just like and in the High Frield too, there's like Frankie Grande, she has Frankie Grande like interviewing her on sun red Carpet. It's just like this split second of Frankie grind going your music, Oh

my god, she in it. She was a pr probably emailed ahead of times like please consider this clip for your real and um it's also if you'll remember, Atlantis was actually cast as one of the bisexual swingers that Carrie Bradshaw was her adjacent c to queerness is just like part of culture of the way that we think about and that is for those for those that don't remember, probably my favorite, one of my favorite episodes of Sex and the City and also one of the most problematic,

Like it was like literally just carry like coming out as like biphobic and like literally she kisses Atlantis. There's like a moment where like it's it's the cinema of it is like is Carrie going to feel something? Is she going to be changed? Is this like this like brook It's like a big deal that she like sleps

to Brooklyn or whatever. Is this like ecosystem of Brooklyn queer is going to like open her mind up and she kind of like stands up and like literally walks out without saying is that anyone by and like the narration overhead, like as she's walking down the stairs like of this like Brooklyn Warehouses, Like well, I'm a homophobe and that it's just gonna be like that, like I called me old fashioned or like whatever. Yeah, I guess it's just not for me. So what was your crazy life?

Stas faggots? There's actually do we actually have a quote from her of her talking about the episode. She says, I kissed Sarah Jessica Parker. I played a lesbian and sex in the city, and I had to kiss her. I have experimented with same sex relationships in my life, but it wasn't about enjoyment with Sarah Jessica. Her character was supposed to be reluctant about getting involved, so it wasn't a passionate kiss. It was a reticent one, which is why I didn't enjoy it. So I can't imagine

that Sarah Jessica Parker has very good breath. Well, Carrie was a chain smoker, Yeah right, I remember. I also remember from that episode like one of the big things that's like she's like finds out that the guy is bye. She's all like, well, like, who do you like having sex with more like men are me, you know what I mean, and it's like it's it's like everything it's so biphobic. But the guy is really hot and Atlantis

looks incredible, as she always does. And I think during the nineties we think of her like that is the crystallized image of her with the long brown hair perfectly. It very much seems like she dressed herself for sex in the city too, or kind of that she kind of like I always like figured that she kind of like rode herself into it or like, you know what

I mean. And it was such an event at the time that it was her in it and that Atlantis Morisset kissed Sarah Jessica Parker like that was the headline. That's what they wanted. Honestly. You are a very prolific performer, um, and I have seen you do several Atlantis numbers. You as we talked about before, did a show once called ten Thousand Spoons. Um, what are some of your favorite Atlantis numbers? I mean, maybe specifically from Jacked Little Pill

to perform and why. Most recently it's been all I Really Want, the first track on the album that has been my most favorite to perform, namely the moment where she says, why are you so petrified? Her silence? Here? Can you handle this? I've gotten into the habit of breaking that number down into two tracks and ending it at that moment and kind of waiting like Frankenfurter at

Antissa like hair can you handle this? And like waiting, and then giving the DJ that I like a wink to start the next track and go into did you think about your bell? That lines um and that song has so much drama to it, so much of it does you ought to know? Is the one that makes me the most money? I'll say that, I'm sure it's the same case for atlantis um. Aside from that, I

perform Not the Doctor. It's the one that lyrically I can connect to what some some of the most you know, the trope of like what is the tracks relationship to womanhood? I'd say Not the Doctor is like exhaustion and so um as another as another brunette diva who's over it all the time. I love Not the Doctor to perform it all I really want I've done right through you too, But I don't know, man. I struggle with audiences and

mid tempo rock numbers. You know. That's why these other tracks in the in Jagged Little Pill, like Perfect and Mary Jane just don't make great drag numbers. But it's you know, but they do make three out of however, is not bad. Yeah, they make great songs to listen to when you're really stoned at home or like on a road trip. Atlantis is amazing driving music. Um. I mean, I always think of the Ironic video with the four

different versions of her in the car. Um. Did you notice that Casey Musgraves gave a little shout out to the Ironic video in her ross recent project. There's a there's a scene. I think it's Justified, right, The track on the Casey album is Justified where she's like in a car like driving it out, which is so Atlantis and so me just mean that Casey is in different seats, in the different four corners of the car, in different outfits,

the way that Atlantis is in the Ironic video. Also one of the most iconic Beanies of all time, aside from Alpha Buzz to Bring it All. So many Burnett's, so many in the legacy, so many Burnettes, so few Beanie I am before we hopped on the mic. I found out that you, like me, used to be a Jesus freak, and I love that you found thank you whow you were in the church? Question said, oh yeah, definitely.

What was that? Was there a dichotomy there, like when you like got into Atlantis, were you kind of like this is like anti Christian? Yeah. I I fancied myself sort of a Boheim type of figure. When I was a child, I kind of had one foot out of the church the entire you know, going back to like you know, queerness and trauma. The church for me was more than just a familial implementation. It was also eventually

a hiding place for me. So there was a point at which there was this sort of tongue in cheek thing for me personally of like I'm biding my time until I am you know, I mean I would I I kind of like fancied a broader spectrum the whole time. I always I was like I knew I would move to New York, for instance. So it was the same me who like got into Atlantis that was like leaving

this place to the secular. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so to speak, but um, you know, for as pious as my family was I was I did have access um to um what could be given to me by media. The Internet is what got my parents. That was where the line in the sand was drawn. Honey. They could not deal with that. Yeah, no, it's something they couldn't even the I had parental controls, but like I would never I was never really allowed to use the Internet, and I

had unfettered access. But you know what I do, I do have a gate a gatekeeping story tied to Atlantis gatekeeping, which is that I, as I said, Jagged Little Pill was the first CD I ever bought. I was obsessed with it. I think a lot of it was going over my head and I just like, like, I just liked the music. Um. But my mom was also obsessed with it. And I imagine that being a young mother.

My mom at this point would have been in her early thirties, who like a young mother who had gotten married really early, Like I'm sure she was really feeling Jagged Little Pill. And she went to go see Atlantis in concert and I begged and begged and begged for her to take me, and she said, no, this is my night out. And I have a very vivid memory of her leaving to go to the concert and me standing at the window upstairs, like banging and crying, so

sad and resentful. And now I can look back on that and be like, she needed her fucking night out so she could go scream along to You Ought to Know or like whatever song really like connected for her and leave me her like annoying kid at home. But I was so pissed for years after that. Still am a little bit. Yeah that's a that's a tough burn girl,

But you know what, I'm glad that night. But that's like the beautiful thing about like the wrath of the album is that it can, like you get a mom, like a mom with kids can connect to the wrath in a completely different way that the eight year old or the twelve year old who listens to it doesn't understand the lyrics but connects to it. And like Michelle

Branch was that person from me. And I remember listening to Hotel Paper and like are you happy now and being like, yeah, I'm so fucking angry, fuck my parents, but like I didn't really actually understand that the song was And then you listen to it retrospectively and it's completely different experience what is Are you happy now? Are are you happy now? I know, I know the song

is that actually about you? Looking? It's a it's a scorned lover, Yeah, scorned exactly, It's an ex scorned lover being like, do you is this actually what you want in our relationship? Kind of? Have you engaged with the Jagged Little Hill musical at all? Um? I haven't. I've seen, um, I've seen snippets. There were a few seconds in the hype reel from the tour, and I think that was

about enough for me. I understand that the main character is non binary, and I really appreciate that the NBA's get this w in this way um to be the main character in the Atlantis musical. But I don't do jukebox musicals pretty much as a rule, not even um. I mean, you know, the the exceptions can be made, girl, and I'm reasonable, I'm reasonable, um, But you know, like I mean, the catalog speaks for itself. I don't know

about Jagged Little Pill. And see, this is going back to what I said about the drag show, things like I'm not sure that that music makes entertaining theater in that way. I picture it be like, you know, basically like fun Home, except the music it is jagged Little Pill. It's literally that. But like, but you're still musicals do like historically suck, Like I don't know why Mulan Rouge wants so many things this year, but like when it was time, you're so fucking wrong for that. The genius

in Lulan Rouge is the movie. It's the boss Lerman fantasy of it all, not to mention the nicole kidman aspect absolutely, which like obviously you're not going to duplicate that on stage. But the issue with Mulan Rouge the musical, or at least my issue with it taking home Best Musical. I mean, come on, talk about pandemic times. It's really that bad. I mean they had that was one of the first musicals I've been to that had a canned soundtrack. Yeah, they hit play on a CD and some belong to it,

and that's winning Best Musical. Forget the fact that it was musical filled with So the concept with the movie of Mulan Rouge is that it's filled with mashups and re contextualizations of popular music from the previous ten twenty years at the time. So the updated Broadway version of the musical includes some of those numbers, and also is updated to include your favorites from the past ten to

twenty years of the current day, including Bad Romance. That fucking song like cut Up and Dance with Me is in the musical of Mulan Rouge, the Tony winning Musical of Mulan Rouge. If you can believe that, I'm just saying, I'm just saying I had a good time, Honey, this is this was blocks away from Hello Dolly with Bette Midler. You know what I didn't. I didn't pay to see it. That's important. I would. No. I just mean, like, if we're placing it in the pantheon, sure, I get it.

I don't love a jukebox musical either. You don't feel precious about the form though, No, right, no, not at all. I if I'm entertained, I'm entertained. Um. I usually like a musical that's a little bit more of a blockbuster. I'm going to see Phantom of the Opera tomorrow night, and it is my favorite musical. That's your religious upbringing. Yeah, that's that Jewish girl coming to New York City. I see,

that's why you're so rent and Wicked. We're featuring, yes, Rent, not really for me, I never super connected with it, but Wicked for sure. For my sixteenth birthday, we came into New York. I saw normal Leobutts and kristin Chinois last performance. Whoa, yeah, Wicked. You know my Wicked story? What is it? It's my great curse in life. Actually it's the day I was cursed. So this is the day Charlene was cursed in terms of me being a theater consumer. Yes, um, so it is January two thousand five.

Adina Menzel has announced that she's leaving Wicked. She's been doing it for three years. I am surprised by my family, who would eventually be shocked that I was a faggot with tickets to a Dena's last performance on Broadway in Wicked. This is basically your golden ticket, Charlie bucket scenario for

me as a kid. Right, this is pretty much the penultimate like thing that I could have desired to experience at that time, Right, you know, it's a whole like going all the way to New York just to see Wicked situation, you know, seething jealousy from my siblings, etcetera. We arrive in New York, you like, check into the hotel and intown, et cetera. We're like having a light meal. I can't eat a thing beforehand. I'm about to you know,

I have a date with Destiny, baby, you know. And suffice to say, we show up to the theater and we see the placard. At this performance, the role of Alphaba will be played by Shoshana Bean, who was in Dinas standby at the time, meaning that aDNA was going to miss her last show and Wicked. Of course we learned um as a gay community in in our youth later that evening that she had, in fact, during the matinee performance of her last day at Wicked, fallen through

the trap door. At the very end of Wicked, Alphaba like melts through a trap door in the stage and the platform that she stepped onto was not there. The very last day she was in Wicked, she fell through the hole in the state agent, cracked a rib and was hospitalized. Yes, and I have to bring it all

back to me, honey. I was, of course fell to my knees and webb when that happened, right, um, And I was like, you know, when Shoshana Bean ran on stage to sing the Wizard and I I crossed my arms and frowned, and my dad was like, you know, this is just a lesson in learning to be happy with what you get in life. You know, things aren't always going to go your way. Son, I'm just this side.

I'm beside myself. I'm like, I remember, I was like, uh, trying to weigh pros and cons of like staying versus leaving. You know. I was like, I was like, if I leave, I don't It's not like I get to see a Dina again some day, you know, I might as well stay, and like trick myself into thinking that I just like, you know, missed the boat. So since then, most of the time that I go to Broadway, the leading lady calls out of the show. Laura B Nancy did it when I went to see My Fair Lady as recently

as nineteen. Yes, I am cursed to miss the bitch singing the songs. That is devastating. Definitely. I also think that, like that's why for me, I don't get hung up on the individual performer. I'm there for the show, but I understand, girl, it's horrible. Also, did an Adida show up for the curtain call for that performance, and like a red track, a red Adida's track with a rib broken, with a rib broken, fractured, bruised. They were like, if you want to get paid for this, you better walk

out there and you say you're goodbye. Another instance is Patty Lapone calling out of Sweeney Todd when I went to see it, girl, trust I went back that girl. I saw that production twice where she played the tuba. One of maybe the best theatrical performance I've ever been to she played that. Yeah, it was a It was a production of Sweeney Todd where all of the actors were also the orchestra. It was the first production of

that kind. There was like a little like Sondheim revival moment at the time, and it was the actors, the players were the orchestra. And they actually did company with the same concept the next year, and that is recorded on PBS if you want to catch that. But of course the Sweeney Todd is you can only see itt

Um Lincoln Center, the definitive one. Yeah. I just learned also that the production of a Little Night Music with Katherine Zena Jones and Angela Landsberry, the recording that's at the public Library for those of you who don't know. If you missed a Broadway show or you want to see the original Broadway cast of any given show, you can see that they're all taped and they're at Ligoln Center Juilliard Library. Yes, so you can't like take you that,

you have to like stay there. It's basically like for academic purposes or whatever. But or like you know, gay nerds. Um, So I just learned that the production of a Little Night Music with kaven Zeta Jones they recorded on a night where the standby was for Kevin performing. Literally I was like, oh, at least I get to go see that, and you went to the Juilliard libe or did you collapse on the floor again? And it's just the curse, and I just I can accept it. I'm blessed in

many ways. I have many blessings, but I have a few curses too, and that's one of them. And so I just know, I note, I know now tos reset my expectations. So like, for instance, I was delighted with surprise when Bette Midler showed up for Hello Dolly, or when Patty showed up both all three times, and I saw jips right, and you must have been delighted when Atlantis showed up at her own concert. Girl I had, I was. I was sad that Liz Fair called out

replaced her with cat Powers, so I had before. I'll say that I don't feature cat Power really, but I'm glad they did it. And see they had they had Garbage opening for Atlantis. I really wanted to see them both together contemporary, would you say? So? The difference between the two and one was palpable, to say the least. There was this sort of nostalgic and past time quality to Shirley Manson's performing. There was this undeniable, like has been quality to it, you know, and she was still

doing it. She was hitting the notes and singing the songs. She had this whole diet tribe before. She's sang cherry lips about how she never takes requests because requests don't acknowledge the act that the artist has put something together for you to see, and weird decide as artists, and everyone's screaming, and she's like, but I'm going to take this one request because this bitch in the front row ask for it. You see this girl, He's like basically

in a bikini like Cherry fucking Loves. Do you take requests when you're performing? Um, I I take suggestions. I'll say that The thing about people suggesting a requesting drag numbers is that people are usually projecting with their suggestions of drag shows. Usually someone will suggest a number to me that they very much want to perform and drag themselves. You know, I'm like, why don't you do that track?

They'll send me tracks that I've never even heard, be like I see you performing this, like I see you performing this boom because I don't know that song. Well, I have a suggestion. Um. Has anyone ever suggested Atlantis? Um? There were There was a large contingency of voices trying to get me to do Atlantis at this year's bush Wig, because of the reinvigorated spirit that I had involving her,

because of seeing the concert so high on psychedelics. There was this moment at the end of the concert too, where Atlantis's kids ran on stage and shot confetti cannons into the crowd. And that's the point at which I just completely lost it because it was just like such a resolution. It was such a resolution to all of the struggle that she was like singing about on stage beforehand,

and like she's like, I have a rad life. I'm like touring with my family, this music that made me a ship ton of money and like gave me this

really interesting life. But I love that though. That like that's to me is like that image of like the kids shooting the company cannons is like a beautiful way to like round out like where it all started and like a play pace of grief and wrath and all the different versions of like you know, the scorned woman of the woman like a womanhood and like the plights of that. But like that's beautiful and like, yeah, I

can understand what I'm emotional just you describing it. I don't ever want anyone to shoot a confetti cannon at me, but that's just me. I was like far enough back, you know, like picking it out of your mouth, because that is one of the one of the rules I think at like a concert or a drag show, one of the things that you shouldn't be doing. Did you tweet about this recently? The rules for like Newby Queens

not to do it shows. I'm really I'm actually proud of us because we've started implementing this into the culture. We're moving past messes as a drag community as a whole um. It's important because there's a few reasons. And what I'm saying is like drag shows that result in something that has to be cleaned up. That's what I

mean by messrs is like cleaned up by someone else. Yeah, and there's and so for forever and ever, we were doing this thing where if you're making a mess, you laid down a tarp, which was enough incentive not to do it for me, because when you see the tart being drug out stage, just like I wonder what's gonna happen, Boy Wolf's gonna come out and pour milk either gonna be blood or milk or food or something. You know every time yea or a coke. You know, I'm guilty

of it. I did it back in the day, watermelon, watermelon and Sun's so at the point the thing is. And also let's not forget the real pig heart. Yeah, you describe all of these to me right now, and then we will I need to know, Okay, Well, back in the olden days when I like dabbled in performance art, I at bush Wig one year I did a performance of cool for the Summer, a demilovado um in which I slathered myself in sunscreen and then poured the sunscreen

on a watermelon and ate it. That was actually not a huge mess, and it was carpeted. It was pretty contained. It was a cart Why who did that? The venue under dunk House and then um I used to throw this party called Psychic um and for Psychic Snow one year. Part of the like ritual that we did every party, I bit into a cow heart. Yeah, that's very very There was also a psychic where we stuffed me into a suitcase that I go into, filled it with dirt.

And on that note, I'm so glad we as a community have moved graduate because it makes it It makes it perilous for the drug queen after you, and it's inconsiderate because the bar staff or the club staff has to clean it up. And also the chief reason for you not to make a mess as a drag queen on stage is it has been done before, it doesn't look cool, and there's not really much that can be done with that medium anymore. Like people like when drag

queens like bleed everywhere, like they spill something everywhere. It's almost like the scream that results is like a belabored scream. It's almost like an obligatory like she did it, so yes, drag babies, um cut it out rely on your goddess given stage presence. You heard it from Atlantis Morrisset's music, and you can't go wrong. We'll be back next week with a discussion on Obsessed, starring Beyonce and the archetype

of them Fatale. If you will, I am actually so excited to talk to you about that, Rose and it is your first time watching it. You can tell us what to talk about next, whether it's a show, a book, a cultural phenomenon. We want to hear from you. You can call to confess at three to three pennants. That's three to three seven three six two six two three. I'm your co host, fran Torado, and you can find me at Friends, squish Coat, wherever you want on social and I'm Rose Damn You. You can also find me

wherever you want at Rose Damn You. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen and leave us a rating on Spotify or a review on Apple Podcasts Like a virgin is I Heart Radio Production, our producers Phoebe Unter, the support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane, Chitch and Nikki Etour until next week, See you later, Virgins of What