That is Mahogany!

Oh my, that is hilarious. Because I was at Sinance this weekend, which we'll talk about Charlie. I talked to multiple industry people about the Madonna bio pick two separate conversations abou this biopic, and someone said to me, well, what do you think is going to happen with And I was like, I don't think it's gonna happen. I

think that Madonna. If you look at the history of Madonna movies and just unfinished Madonna projects in general, there are many that have been abandoned because she's so impossible to work with, which like she deserves to be impossible to work with right, like she's earned her shore to an extent. But h I mean you also called this too. I feel like you didn't think it was like, it's not it's I have been saying for years at this point that this film which Madonna was going to direct

herself was never happening. Um, but it is official according to Twitter. It's not happening. But what I will say is I still would like to see a limited series about the Madonna boot Camp. Yes, actually, um, girls, so tell me about Sundance. Sundance was great. I've been to Sundance before. Have I told you about this? No? Um, I went to Sundance twenty years ago in fifth grade. What. Yeah, My my trans cowgirl aunt, who I think I've talked

to you about before. He was an architect and she had like she had built a house for Robert Redford. I'm not a Nippo baby, by the way, listeners, Um, she just like got the hook up. My aunt is like she lives in a shack in like the middle of fucking podunc newhere, Colorado, like a shock that she built herself. But she like was like, oh, um, Robert Redford like my um nibbling so to speak. I hate. Actually I just used the term nibbling to describe a

young me, and I actually hate that term. Can we say this now, like there has to be a better gender neutral term between nephew and niece than nibbling, Like that's it's rotted, Like it's disgusting. I've never used that terminology. I never would. That's disgusting. But you you, but you

yourself have a nibbling. I have a nephew for now, for now, as I said, as I said at his Zoom gender reveal, for now, yeah you did, um okay, So anyways, Um, basically she was just like, oh, yeah, my, you know, my net niece, um wants to be a filmmaker. I want to take them and like literally brought me and my cousin to Sundance so that we could like

watch movies and and all that stuff. Totally wild, but like the an amazing, incredible memory as a kid, and I think to go back with like TRIPLEI fun obviously because I could go to all of the crazy parties

that come along with Sundance. So what is Sundance like I've never been you know, Um, I would describe it similar to I mean, it's just it's just a film festival that kind of takes place across Park City, which is this like you know place in Utah that has an extremely high elevation and therefore is like covered in snow this time of year. UM, And it's super magical

and very like hyperlocal and small, very crowded. UM probably has the same crowd that you might find it like a south By Southwest or like an Aspen Gay Ski Week, which like I've been to both, and that just basically means that they're white and affluent and have expendable income. So sometimes there are some like really annoying people that you're surrounded by, and then you're also surrounded by a lot of like cool like filmmakers and artists who are

there because their films are there. Did you spot Anne Hathaway who was so stepmother at Sundance this year, the kind of step mom you want to fuck? She? I did not see her. I'm so bummed that I would say that um Kesha was probably the most famous person. I was in proximity too, but I did sad. It's

really disappointing. I was looking for her, for sure, But I I did see Meredith Marks like four different times, like she was at every other party that I went to, And at a certain point I was like this is weird, Like you are the queen of Sundance, I guess, um, And yeah, she had like a party in like her boutique, which is um, like she's the one with the gay son, and her boutique is like like four square feet, like it's so small, and like I we were all like

jam packed in there with like a bunch of other faggots and then like Jonathan Bennet, like I was just like what's going on? Um? I saw some really cool films. There's only one that I like really want to talk about. Um,

this documentary that soon everyone will hear about called Cocoma Documentary. Okay, I'm going to go to the bathroom, just kidding, Okay, but actually I think that's a good setup because it's a documentary that you know, if you read the log line, it's like a doc about black trans sex workers across the country, and on paper, it's kind of like a

talking head doc. And you know, you and I we've worked in queer media for a while, and like we've reported on a lot of things related to just ongoing violence and sex work and all this all this different stuff, and so I think I kind of went into it, and I think a lot of people probably went into it having a certain idea in their head of what

a documentary about black trans sex workers would be. And then in the first sixty seconds of this film completely like surprises you, and it's like a completely different movie

than what you think it's going to be. It is so funny and so nuanced and so artful, and like I think that you know, similar to our conversations about like Pretty Woman and Zola a while back, it's like it like perfectly illustrates like the like what's like mundane about sex work, Like what's like ridiculous about sex work, what's terrifying about sex work? And messes it all up just like by way of talking to these women and

hearing like how brilliant they are. And then also like without giving too much away interviewing people that hire sex workers, and without like centering them at all, like the art of the camera it like doesn't show their faces, and like just on the filmmaking level and on the music supervision level, the movie was so good and the woman who directed it, who obviously was also black, and trans which is to me the reason why this film was like so far and beyond different than any other I'd

seen in like the trans doc space or even trans filmmaking space. Um she used to work in music and was like I think she used to do like music stuff for like Andrea the Thousand Sierra or whatever, and then when she transitioned, she lost all her work and she was homeless for I think years, she was telling us at the talk back, and so this doc was like part of the art that she was like making to figure out like what her next step in art is, and she is going to be famous. Her name is

d Smith. Everyone should like check out this dock like the second it's available to them. Truly, it's so thought sounds fabulous, and I will take your word for it and probably watch it, even though I'm very anti documentary.

I'm trying to think of like any other highlights from the weekend, but like I was basically just like driving around and like in snow and like being bundled up and like waiting outside of like parties like cold, the phone's miserable and hanging out of the Chase Sapphire Reserve lounge lovely. Um Well, speaking of snow and ice, I wanted to take a quick little detour into corner Um. So I know, I know that as a family we're

still reading man Hunt. I'm reading it very slowly, but I did read and literally one sitting the other night, a gay hockey romance. What was it giving? Was it giving YOURII on ice? Yeah, but but sexier and about hockey um. And it was called Heated Rivalry. It's part of a series of gay hockey fiction and it was recommended by someone I follow on TikTok and I read it in one sitting, and it's about these two hockey players who get drafted at the same time and have

this sort of media driven rivalry. But like as soon as they meet there into each other and they secretly fuck for years, um, and then like eventually fall in love. And it was a very good way to spend an evening. The sex scenes were really hot, and I definitely recommend it if you're just looking for some gay porn to read it basically you're looking for some porn to read,

you can set some emotional gay porn. Yeah, I mean, I'm always looking for something to kind of like fill the hole that your on ice Um used to occupy it because I just like, well, I wish I could experience that series for the first time over and over again. I know same. It's really no thoughts had empty, just vibes, which was really what I was looking for. What else have I been enjoying recently? I want to make a case that you should watch The Last of Us? Have

you heard anything about it? I've seen people talking about it, and I've been seeing how pedro pedro pscal what is that his name? Um, I've been seeing like everyone thirst over him, and I yeah, I probably will watch it. What's it about? So it's a zombie show. It takes place in a post apocalyptic world in which you know, the society has fallen due to a zombie plague. It's adapted from a video game series and in and in this iteration um, the zombie plague is a fungus that

has taken over humanity. So the zombies are very like the zombies heads have like split open and like mushrooms and fungi are sprouting from them. And they're also like part of a hive mind that's connected through like scores. That's cool, so they like they can like sync up and like communicate with each other. Yeah, it's like they're these threads that connect them. So if you like step on one a mile away, a bunch of a bunch of the zombies will know, and we'll know where you

are and then we'll come running to get you. Um. So the so from what I've heard, it's very faithful to the video game. There's almost like a prologue in the first episode where Pedro Pascal, who's the main character, it's about how his life for the Outbreak started, and you follow his daughter and like get kind of her point of view of like things starting to be weird and how things went awry. Um. And I don't want to spoil it for you, so I won't say more

than that. But then it jumps twenty years in the future to where he's now this um smuggler in what used to be Boston which is now like a fascist military state, and he and his girlfriend are tasked with um smuggling this young girl out by the Resistance. And the show is, I guess, sort of like a road trip story about them making their way across the US, where like there's tons of like zombies and like raiders

and slavers, and Um. Even in the first episode, I could tell that a lot of the visuals were probably pulled directly from the video game, like scenes were they're in a car and there's like people running in front of them. It's like you can feel how that probably was lifted directly from the game, but it's done in such a like what beautifully fil mcway. The performances are incredible. Um. Pedro Pascal's daughter is played by Tandy Way Newton from

West World her daughter, and she's so incredible. Um. The girl who he eventually has to smuggle is played by the actress from the latter seasons of Game of Thrones who played Leona Morimont and she was also in that Lena Duna movie. I was like, I've seen her from Game of Thrones. Um. But yeah, it's really entertaining, very scary. Um, you know, really good. Just Sunday Night Musty TV. I

definitely recommend it. I'm actually literally going to watch it now because I was just waiting for someone to kind of sell it to me. Um. Honestly, I think a lot of people come to this podcast like waiting to be sold on something. So UM. I was it was between that or you know what else. You know, what was on my list maybe for tonight was the Madonna doc Truth or Dair, which I've actually never seen. Oh,

you've never seen Yes, which I've heard it's incredible. Well, it's you know, it's been in the culture a lot because the video Madonna put out last week to announce her Yes the World tour. Yeah, it's that that video is modeled after Truth or scene in Truth Their Dare, in which Madonna plays Truth Their Dare with her backup dancers, which is a little weird now considering that a lot of those backup dancers ended up suing her. There was there was like they felt really like abandoned by her

and a lot of that process. Um, but it was a really strange video of her and Amy Schumer and Jack Black and a lot of people queen and yeah, Meg Stalter looked very confused as to why she was there being Bob the drag queen. Um. There was like there was one of their little Wayne, Yeah, little Wayne. There was one. Oh. Um, Kate Berland like like these people like what is the checks? The check? Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm happy for the folks that were in the movie.

I'm just like thinking about like Madonna, it's just like I guess I can only speak for like Twitter people, like people who are very online that like this like mishmash of celebrities is like so random, Like the only thing they have in common is like maybe a kind of gay following that you know, have proof of, like viral popularity. In some way. It's just weird for that Madonna thinks she needs something like that to sell a world tour. Like Madonna can literally we just say I'm

going on tour. I guess that it's a cute little announcement thing and like it's fine. I don't mind that

it exists, but it's just it was weird. I just think that Madonna is like kind of you know, rather has been like in her flop era for like a few albums, and I will flop eras like so pejorative and like country like I just like she used to be for like decades, someone who truly did have her finger on the pulse of the culture right, Like she was good at sniffing out subculture, at seeing what's cool, at like taking like creators and underground DJs or whatever

and putting them into her work. And then those people transcend into greatness along with her right, Um, I'm giving her a lot of credit in this very sweeping summary of her, but like in this era specifically, like her instincts just like don't smell right like and her well, yeah, it's it just feels very out of date, Like yeah, I mean Anna, it's Madonna used to create culture and

now she chases culture. That is the problem. But the thing is where Madonna has always excelled far and away is in performance, and so I have faith that she will create something really exceptional in these live tours, as long as it's not all fucking TikTok remixes of her greatest hits. And I haven't bought tickets yet, but I really want to get my hands on tickets because when I saw Madonna for the Madam X tour, it was the best concert I've ever seen. I cried through like

half of it. I it was such a it was such a profound theatrical experience. I it was amazing. And like the album, I did like the album, but the tour really brought it alive to me in a different way. Wow, are you alone and liking the Madam X album? I feel like not a ton of Madonna people liked that album. I think the real Madonna heads do appreciate it. Okay, that's good to know. I honestly can't wait to do our Madonna episode one day so that I can give

like some of these other albums to close listen. But um, yeah, I I honestly really want to see her the show as well. Like, honestly, someone listening should figure out how to get us free tickets because like she famously doesn't do her hits at concerts right like she'll she'll she she does, she does them, but she does she does them in new interpretations, like like mixes and stuff like not not even necessarily remixes, but just like in different contexts.

One of the most moving moments of the amount of X tour was she performed Frozen, but she wasn't. Like there was a video on stage of her daughter Lords dancing that was the like instead of Madonna performing like that was the performance and it was so like transcendently like indescribably beautiful and touching. Um, oh my god, I want to see her again so badly, but I'm going to need her to take that grill out. So that's where we don't get like spit on as an audience. Yeah, exactly.

So I was home visiting my family last week and did catch up on some of the Oscar movies, just knowing that, you know, the nominations were about to come out. And that's not true. I actually I watched The Menu, which I had already seen, and every and we had to keep telling my mom to cover her eyes with the quote unquote scary parts scary part um. But then my mom and I watched The Bandshees of Innisharin and

it is so good. I was gooped and gagged. And this is coming from someone who hated Three Billboards, like walked like wanted to burn the theater down after I saw it. It is so beautiful and funny and uh like sad and weird and like it is weird right like it it's touching. It would be really fucking weird. It's very weird. But it's such a good movie, with

such fantastic performances, amazing music, incredible cinematography. It just I loved it, and I was not expecting to love it, I really I Yeah, I wouldn't have expected you to like it either. I honestly, it's going to take a lot to get me to watch that movie. It does not have the bones of something that I want to watch in a movie, but your endorsement of it is quite That's like a pretty high endorsement. Um much more

than the Academy. That is, although I am shook that the Academy nominated everything everywhere, all at once, the most out of any other film like that is such a win, I'm not surprised. I I think that was. I think the tide has turned enough that that was. I was not worried that that film wouldn't get the recognition it deserves. I was just trying to change the topic to the fact that there are a lot of movies on here that definitely are on here more than they need to be,

even if they're only on here once. For example, Avatar The Way of Water. No Avatar deserves it's Best Picture nomination. Can I just talk to you about the fact that I did, in fact see Avatar The Way of Water in IMAX? So you did, Yes, I saw it. Oh what did you think? Because we still haven't talked about it because you didn't see it. I I don't even know what I can say that would make a productive conversation.

But I definitely think that the movie delivered pretty much exactly what it promised, and therefore I can only be so snobby about it, you know what I mean? Like I thought the movie was to me so rudimentary and

so inanely stupid at times. But the movie is like ostensibly for like children, or rather like the movie is just like for the whitest human possible audience in existence, like literally in the history of like film mic reception ever um is like their goal, you know, like James Cameron literally just has a different goal than like all other filmmakers, right, Like God, I just did the movie is not for me. It's just not for me. And I did want to walk I wanted to walk out,

and I did not need disease. Sigourney Weaver as a teenager, as a teenager like like getting stoned, rolling around in nature and like all of those stunts too, song imagining her like getting stung by a jellyfish, like it's so crazy, Like I and I love, we love Sigourney Weaver to me, Like my response was, just like you have to have more pride in yourself as an actor than this, like that, like if I was Sigourney Weaver and James Cameron was like, Yo,

you made my first movie such a huge success. I'm gonna throw you a bone by making you this fifteen year old girl rather this fifteen year old non binary novv um because they did kind of have this kind of like faggy haircut. Um. I would have been insulted. If I was Sigourney, I would be like, what like rerite insulted because there he's making her a main character in one of the biggest movies in the world, literally like the Third Growth, the third highest grossing film of

all time. I think Fran like, yeah, I get I get it, but like it it's not like it's not like she said no, like she's signed up to do that. I know, but that's but it's so distract It was so distracting to me. Um. Yeah, I love the whale though, love the whale, Love the whale, also love um uh Kate Winslet's daughter being like such a baddie that like there's one when she's introduced she like flips her hair

over her ears. That's like so um, I want to say anachronistic, but it's it just feels like very out of place. In the world that there is no it was giving. It was giving like Bond Girl like it was it was giving, Like who that girl the Kate Winslet's daughter from the Water Tribe is Claudia from Interview

with a Vampire? No way, Oh my god. That honestly, I mean, I'm not going to be the one to like have all the nuanced conversations about Avatar because like I think intellectualizing that movie in general is just like such a waste of time, Like like, why the criticizing this movie at all? It doesn't fucking matter because it's going to still make billions of dollars. But like for me, it's like I it's just when I was watching it,

it's this is not a critique. This is just franz experience of the movie and me feeling like I'm watching it and I'm like, you know what, this movie could have been animated. It could have been an animate It was no, no, no no, it could have been no no, it could have been a hundred percent animated, and they could have spent a billion and a half dollars less on it, and that billion and a half dollars could have gone to literally anything else that but well, I'm

happy to Avatar and I am. I was just talking to like, spend another billion no. This weekend, I was having I was having dinner with a friend and saying, oh, and I remember, I need to see Avatar again. I need to see it in IMAX this time, and possibly in forty X. The only reason I saw it in Imax is because it was the only screening at like a sensible hour. And I don't I do not, actually and this is like the non snob frand I do not think three D added to my experience at all.

I really wished I had watched it in two D. I also will be seeing the Titanic re release that in a couple of weeks now that we will show up for I will go down with this ship. I'd be speaking of, you know, post apocalyptic big budget action franchises. We're going to be diving deep into the Hunger Games today. Who would win in a fight between NATII and Catness Everdeene? Who's Terry, Zoe Sell, Donna, Zoey Sell, Donna, Okay, definitely Zoe. I'm sure she would really intimidate Catanus with all of

her like hissing and guttural moans. Because she literally had sorry again. This is why I think it's like I think James Cameron is looking stupid. It's like all Zoe had to do with this movie was like I was crying, like, don't you wish she had no other lines? Don't you wish that there was a blue Donald Sutherland and Avatar talking about him? Donald Southern would be amazing. He should

have played the fifteen year old non binary. Yes. So I have a sort of um process that I go through every year around this time, which is that during the holidays, I do a rewatch of all the Harry Potter movies and all the Lord of the Rings movies because to me, those are Christmas films. Well, I mean the Lord of the Rings literally the day the Fellowship

is formed is on Christmas Day. Canomically, you know, you know how like when you open up streaming services during the holidays is like here's the Christmas section, Like someone needs to sponsor you and be like these are roses quote unquote Christmas will Actually this year did like a big Harry Potter Christmas thing. They had you know those videos where you can watch a fireplace burn and just like put it in the background. Is like ambient noise.

They had a Harry Potter version of that one. It's like it's the fireplace in the Griffin door common and then like serious his face comes out of it. Sometimes I did. I did like fast forward through it to see if they or any fun lettle you can throw like flu powder, if there's a flu powder green and

it um. So I watched those during the holidays, and then when the year starts over again, I realized that I always then go and watch the Hunger Games, which I I do agree there's something seasonal, seasonal about them, and I honestly a lot of people Okay, here's the thing about Hunger Games. Hunger Games belongs in this genre of movies where if you are in a group function trying to decide on a movie and someone says Hunger Games, everyone's gonna be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, let's just

watch Hunger Games. Because we all have a certain level of familiarity with it. Everyone has their favorites of the movies. They're like they're wildly entertaining. They're very entertained, and production value stands, you know, the test of time. The acting is good. There's both stuff too, like seriously like engage with and be enthralled by. And also you can just like watch and commentate and make fun of it. And also I think the reason why I watched them this

time of year specifically is like we're post holidays. Everything's a little like bleak and depressing, and so what do I want to watch? Um? Teen Dystopia, I mean, Dystopia is like as a genre, films now so massively successful every network and streaming service is, or rather maybe even

that time it's almost passed. But like so many dystopian films in the bird Box era have like come through as they become more and more popular, which is interesting considering the world, the real world as we know it is also falling apart in dystopia. It's also sort of like comforting dystopia. Bird Box actually, like when you look at the actual trend of dystopic media, bird Box is kind of late in the game. So there's a very interesting um YouTube video by Sarah Z who's a YouTuber

that I've I've brought up on here before. I really like her video essays. She has one that's called what Happened to Teen Dystopia, which is all about how there was this huge trend um in the early tens of y A dystopia. Hunger Games is the biggest one, but there was also the Divergent Movies book and movie series,

which is what gave us Shaleene Woodley. Um, and it followed right after, um, Twilight Mania and the Craze of y a supernatural romance and um, that is a really interesting video essay if you want to kind of know more about how the team Dystopia phenomenon started and why it ended kind of early. But even though it quote unquote ended, it has lingered. It just has lingered in

I would say, more adult projects. And so we have things like all all zombie movies are kind of in a way dystopic because you know, the zombie apocalypse, like the End of the World. Um, we have things like, um, The Leftovers, which is like I've never watched, but I actually kind of want to because I know that people say it's one of the best TV shows ever, and it's like about the Rapture also in this genre. UM. I don't know why, but a few nights ago, the full Moon like woke me up at six am and

I was like, what the funk? And I didn't know what to do with my body or what to do to use up my time. And so I started to watch The Handmaid's Tale. Oh, but that is not my comfort That is not a comfort watch like that is, but that is dystopia to a t um on the Hunger Games. Though I have to say, I don't know if this is like I would. I really want to

watch that video essay now. But I'm thinking a lot about what Jennifer Lawrence brings to that franchise in comparison to any sort of like hy a action or dystopian um movie. And I think that jen for Lawrence is act tank like. She is so viscerally and emotionally human, raw and reel in something that is so not real. And I just don't think when we talk about something like bird Box or whatever, just sopan movies aren't doing

that at all. And this is kind of you know, this was kind of my critique when we were talking about Bones and all that I didn't totally um fully verbalized, but when I kept saying, it's so, it's so. I it's like Taylor Russell, who I adore, was doing a y a performance in a way that Jennifer Lawrence was not in a y A franchise. Does that make sense? I get what you're trying to say. I still we won't. We won't get side track. Let's we're actually getting ahead

of ourselves. So um, let's talk about what the Hunger Games is. Do we have to do though? Yeah? Well Phoebe even our producer doesn't know so knows what it's about. Yeah, yes, okay, so this is why we need to and so buddy Phoebe is on them. Is like in our head funds talking does about we also are here to educate. So The Hunger Games is a series of books written by Suzanne Collins. The first book came out in two thousand eight.

The subsequent books came out in two thousand and there was a fourth book that UM was released, which is actually being made into a movie. It's a prequel series Hunter Shaffers in it. They also were adapted into a film series UM. The first film came out in two thousand twelve, and the books are set in a dystopic version of North America in which there are twelve districts

that are ruled over by the capital. The districts in the history of pen m which is what this you know post a post apocalyptic um nation is called are being punished for an up rising that was perpetrated seventy

five years ago. And this thing has been installed called the Hunger Games, which is um part reality show, part deathmatch, in which every year, two teenagers are reaped in a lottery from each district and put into an arena to battle to the death until one of them survives at the behest of a one president snow played by old flash Donald Sutherland, Queen Um. And so The Hungry Games is obviously very derivative of things like Battle Royale, which

did this first. It also is somewhat derivative of The Lottery, which is a short story that you probably read in middle school in which there's a lottery and the person who wins I didn't even know that gets stoned to death. Um. And these books were immediately successful. They were huge. They were as they filled the post Twilight space because I guess because of the like hugely negative cultural reaction to Twilight, in which the interests of teenage girls were seen as

frivolous and purely romantic. You know, there was so much in pop culture about how Bella was like, you know, like a sort of nothing heroine. She was a Mary Sue. All she cared about was this boy who she was in love with. Um Catness really filled that negative space that she left of being this why a heroine who had tons of agency and skills and like her you know, love triangle that she was and was very secondary to

her just wanting to survive. So in the story of the Hunger Games, Catness lives in District twelve with her mother and her sister. At the reaping day for the Hunger Games, her sister, whose very young, is selected. Catness volunteers to go in her place. I volunteers tribute as a meme that will live forever, and the boys selected to go with her is the son of the local baker, who is, as it turns out, in love with Catanus.

They go in the Hunger Games together and survive by sort of manufacturing this love story because like I think that's what makes this interesting. Is like in a lot of the other like in something like Battle Royale, there's not the same element of surveillance that the Hunger Games has because the Hunger Games is, as we understand it in the world of the books and the movies, is a televised event that people are watching. So it's not just it's not something that's just happening in the arena.

It's something that is a show for everyone watching. So they survive because they create the story of them being star cross lovers, and then this eventually leads to them like kind of by accident, starting a revolution, and that is what happens in the subsequent books and films. Wait side note, Should I see Battle see Slash read Battle Royale? Is it good? I've never I've never actually heard anyone talk about Yeah. I read the book like years and years.

I remember, you know, when it was floating around, but I never actually consumed it. So but yeah, same genre, um, also familiar. It also feels a little bit like, um, what was that Netflix? Um, Battle Royal? Squid squid Game? It's squid gamey um. Yeah. But okay, So, I honestly I don't remember. I was not like Hunger Games pilled. I think I consumed Hunger Games just the way everyone consumed Hunger Games. Like. I was just like, this is the movie that everyone's seeing it and it looks amazing.

It's starring the most famous actress of this time, Jennifer Lawrence and so it was her big break, right. Well, but so Winter is her big mainstream break, right she was non native. For Winter's Bone, She's on the Academy's radar. And so yeah, this is like the moment where it's like we all now universally stand Jennifer Lawrence. And also Jennifer Lawrence off screen was a part of like the appeal of like her in a press junger. She was so charismatic and funny and the girl that you wanted

to get a beer with. And you know, well that I think came as she started, because Winter's Bone is what brought her to the attention of the industry, and then the Hunger Games is what brought her to the attention of the culture. And yes, she did gain this reputation for like talking about pizza and like being like one of the guys. She's very like the gone girl monologue,

like yeah, she was a cool girl. She was a cool and and you know, there was a hugely negative, um like backswing to that, and that is why she really has pulled back in her public life, a negative backswing that follows pretty much any woman who is in the public. Yeah, it's just misogyny. Um, I was a little Hunger Games pilled. I did read the books. I mean sort of like in the same way that I read Twilight. Was like I was bored one summer, so

I read all the books. I also, I believe, read all three books and I did not read the other one. And the books are good, and they hold up, and they have a lot of I think, really valuable social commentary in them. It's a world that is like obviously very far away from our own, but not by that much.

Yeah it's not. And also like in at least from what I remember, Hunger Games like really stays in Catness's perspective, and and it's all told in first person, a lot of interiority, a lot of angst honestly, so it's satiated like young adult angst, while also bringing this kind of like next level um uh them fatal heroine, I mean not she's not in the fatal genre, but you know what, Yeah, she's a very she's very capable. Like that's that's the thing.

The only reason why she's able to survive the Games is because she um has trained herself to be a hunter. She's an archer, as like one of my favorite tailors I've sung she is the archer. Um. Wait, what would your weapon of choice be if you were in the Hunger Games? Um, if I was in the Hunger Games, I would die first. Well, I mean that's true, but

what would to answer the question? What would I would be a knife, and I would slit my own threat, Like I would say, actually when the cannon went off, I would just like jumps or no, I would jump before the cannon went off so that I got blown up. I don't have to deal with all that. Oh god, I mean anyways, Um, I would definitely have a mace. I would have like that. You know that seems very unwieldy, and I think you would hurt yourself. I would just

work out my upper body. Think you would like try to swing or something like that, Like, yeah, I would be it would be no, I would learn how to you have to. You would have to learn how to master whatever weapon you choose. And I think I would train ahead and learn the mace because I think there's an intimidation actor with the mace. And I also just want to be like, you know, like a like a bimbo with a mace, Like I just think that's kind

of fierce. And I would be in full sled gear, like absolutely, like it would be giving, Like, um, it would be giving. I was gonna say, dolls kill, but hopefully maybe some like Deon, like a dion Lee kind of like armor suit. Maybe a Muglaire dion Lee or you could be Laura Croft, right, it would be very tomb rate about yes, but my, but my Lenny Kravitz. My sinna would be Mouglare Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

In my dream world, I would say like I was Hunger Games pilled by the books, but then the movies were what I was really interested in. But I was only really interested in the first two, and then by the time the final two came out, I was like kind of bored. I didn't think they should have been split into two. The third book should have been split into two movies. Like that was very post Harry Potter

when everyone started doing that. I do. I will say this, I've said this before, the best of the Hunger Games movies is the second one, Catching Fire, even though I do think the first movie is fantastic. And the reason why I think the movies are so popular and so enduring is because there was a lot of work put into them to make them good films. Um, there's a lot of craft in them. Um, there's a reason why Jennifer Lawrence was cast. Like, yes, it's because she's a

fantastic actress. But the character she played in Winter's Bone, who's this like folksy American girl trying to like make it in like ury um, very much translates to the Hunger Games, Like she had played that kind of role before. She was someone who was like have this like inner strength and resilience. And Um, the first movie, like it does not shy away from how fucked up what's happening is.

You know, there these are teenagers who are being pitted against each pit against each other to fight to the death on reality TV. And that's fucked up. Yeah, it really is. And the movies get progressively darker. I don't. I assume the books do too, though I remember they were just dark from the I mean all, they're all dark from the start, but like, I don't really remember. I think the last movie is probably the worst. I remember kind of liking the third movie, like the Julianne

Moore of it all and like everything that blows up. Um, but let's just say it's very like bloated, and that they try to make a lot out of not a lot of plot, because the whole the whole third book is like half of it is catnets trying to essentially create like pro rebellion propaganda. And then the final part of it, which is what the last movie is, is they actually like storm the capital and the Capital has like been turned into basically a version of a Hunger

Games arena that they have to survive. Complete side note, do you think the Harry Potter finale should have been split into two movies or would you do you wish that it had been one? No? I actually think it makes I agree. I totally agree, having having watched, having just done my you know, like annual Harry Potter rewatch. There is so much story in deathitely Hallows, and those

movies are two very different things. I actually did a list ranking all the Harry Potter movies, and it's funny that definitely holl Is Part one is one of my favorite movies and as Part two is my least avorite of all the films, not because it's bad, just because it's it's hard to watch, and it is one specific thing. It is the Battle of Hogwarts. It is the culmination,

it's where everyone dies. It's super depressing. And you know, as we said in our inaugural Harry Potter episode, the epilogue is one of the worst things ever written, so horrible, and it just was J. K. Rowling showing her ass long before she showed her ass in other ways. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. Something I always think about when I think about the Hunger Games is there was one there was one year where there was like a pride party that shar was

performing at and she posted this on Instagram. It is like a picture of her maybe trash Tyler, Ashley and Aquaria and the caption was, like Aquaria came from the Capital to visit us in the district and like that's

that's very funny. And there is so much like there were so many memes about like the Capital, because like the Capital was where like they had the access to the best technology and they weren't starving, and they did these like crazy things where they like died their skin blue and like, um, it was very it was supposed to be giving, like the Roman Empire, because there's this whole thing about how they made themselves vomit so they could keep eating while people while while you know, the

common folk were out starving in the districts right right right? Um? Okay, uh new launch point, new launch point, because I think this is actually important for our dear producer Phoebe, who has for some reason never seen any of these movies or read any of these books. Can you help the Virgins understand the Peta Gail dichotomy? Well, this is this is I mean not. I don't think this is controversial for me to say that Gail was never like a feasible love interest. Let let me let me cross you

right there, that Gail was the one? How dare you you a was not the one. Gail literally is the

reason Catness's sister is dead, But she was. She was annoying. Also, I just think that Gail Peter, just over and over and over again, was so like jealous and petty about Gail and possessive, and I felt like through a lot of what they went through, like I felt like Catness was really in it for Gail, and like Gail knew who she was at home, but I guess also her and I think what her and Peter have is not love. I think it's trauma bonding. I mean it is traumabond.

But that's the thing. Trauma bonding is not love, and it makes a bad relationship. But then Catness did come to love him because you are witnessing the economy right here and now I'm I'm Peter. Peter literally all he can do is pay himself like a rock. Like he's

also very strong and I think strong. Um. But what you're saying about them traumabond day, Like, yes, it's true, but the entirety of catching fire is once they are both forced to go back into the arena, catness Is number one priority is that Gail should survive and not her.

And so I think it shows that while yes, Catness has this relationship with with Gail where she if she was free from her obligations, she absolutely would be with him, and her connection with Peter was created by the like in the Crucible of the Hunger Games, she has come to value his life more than hers, and like she does have all of this feeling for her and she wants him to survive, even though that means she will

never get to go back to her family. To Gail, she has fallen in love with him, and then when catching Fire ends and Peter is captured by the Capital and then they like torture him and make him hate Catness. Her number one priority becomes getting him back and like fixing his brain, and they do, and then they end up together because Gale makes himself not an option because he's the reason that Catness his sister dies. Yeah. Yeah,

I don't even remember, honestly, how Catness's sister dies. Is like, Okay, so Catness's sister dies because Okay, so Gail has like devised this thing where they're going to this like trick where they're going to trick people like this this bomb that explodes twice or something, and Catness's sister dies because

of it. And even though like I think there's a scene where Gayl's like he's not sure that he's like actually the one who killed her, but like he could have been, and based like at the end of the day, it's his fault that she died. Damn. I like, honestly,

this is kind of what I'm talking about. The Fine Alley and the Last Maybe I don't know if this is part of your um beef with the last two movies, but those did kind of blend into the culture for me, Like, I don't really actually remember a ton of what those last movies felt like because I think the finale is such a disappointment. I think by the end everyone was just kind of ready for them to end, because the thing is, they're not even though they're enthralling and thrilling,

they're not fun. It's not a fun world to visit the way that Harry Potter is. Even though there is a lot of death and darkness in Harry Potter, you still want to immerse yourself in the world. That's why there's literally theme parks that exist, And like, I'm not trying to go to a panem theme park. No, no, no, no, no no, even though there should be one. I think

I think one does exist somewhere. I think I think there's like somewhere in Asia, maybe there is some kind of Hunger Games theme park, But you know I won't be I'm traveling to go to Panama anytime soon. Yeah, me either. But back to Catness as a character, like I do feel like she became something of a brand new archetype. Like I mean, obviously there's a lot of

varying criticism on it. If you ever read like bad feminist and rock sand gays like essay on the Hunger Games of it all, and like Catness as a character um, but like there, I I do feel like Catness is like was like this new like and Jennifer Lawrence not not Catness, not just Catiness, but Jennifer Lawrence as Catness I think created like a completely different lane maybe for

heroine's rights. Not not a new one, but it was a revived because I do think I do think that Catness is more in the legacy of someone like Buffy Um and that a lot of people look at pop culture and especially pop culture that was popular for teenage girls and very much see Bella and Twilight as like an anomaly because I think more so we are drawn to these heroines who need or want something that is

not only romantic love. It's usually the romantic love is like a byproduct of whatever other adventure they're involved in, and the love triangle is secondary. And even in the Hunger Games, like the love triangle does feel like something that was more to create a marketing creation than something

that like organically exists in the books. For the films, well, it's very hard to push literally any like movie or franchise led by a woman without romance, like unfortunately, like I don't like that about like you know, Hollywood, but you know, execs and story editors are not going to want to engage with a woman's action story if it doesn't have romance. You know, That's what blockbusters require. And so I think that maybe that could be said of some of these books, of some of these genres of

books and things like it. I don't know, but that's that's the reason why I like The Hunger Games is because it acknowledges that the love story is secondary to the survival story. Like I was just watching Catching Fire, because the whole reason we're doing this is because I'm in the middle of my you know, Hungry Games rewatch.

And in the like opening act of Catching Fire, where Catness is has basically been tasked by President Snow to make the people of Pennam believe that the only reason she rebelled was because she was in love with Peter, because there's an actual rebellion starting, and she tells Gail that she wants to run away with him into the woods because he's like offered that as an option, and he's like, no, I need to be here because there's a rebellion starting and then he gets like whipped by

the peacekeepers who were you know, like the cops of Panem. And then it's announced that in the next Hunger Games, all of the tributes will come from victors. That means that Catus is going back into the game. It's it is all stars, all winners. Um. So there's this scene where Catness goes out into the woods with Gail and he says to her like, I should have left with you when you said it, and she's kind of like she's the one who gets up and leaves because she's like,

I don't have time for this anymore. This is no longer a love story. This is a survival story. Like this is now about life or death, and like you and this romance subplot no longer matter because now I'm literally fighting for my life. God, speaking of the Harry Potter of it all, I have to I have to break this up because this is something that I'm culturally aware of. It is like it's really big on TikTok

right now. People who are in the Harry Potter fandom, specifically the Marauders fandom, which I'm not sure that you know what that is. I have no idea. So the Marauders are you know, the marauders map in Harry Potter. Okay, so that's mischief managed mooney wormtail, Padvin and Prongs, Harry's dad, James Potter, rima sloop in serious black, Peter Petter. So there's a whole fandom around that era of Hogwarts and like the big the biggest ship in it. And when

we talk about ship, that's relationship. It's like, I hope you know that by this point characters that people shipped together. So like the like kind of the o G. Harry Potter ship in a lot of ways is wolf Star, which is rema slooping and serious black like. And even Gary Oldman and David Thulis, who played the characters in the films, have said like they kind of played them as if they were Wait really, wait do you ship personally? Like?

In the fan fiction world, I yes, I do. So there is so Hunger Games fan fiction is like there was a Hunger Games fandom, but I would say within fandom, Hunger Games is much more popular as a world to set fan fiction in, Like a lot of people set other characters in like a Hunger Games universe. So right now, there is a an ongoing um fan fiction that I believe is like currently maybe like three thousand words long. It's called Crimson Rivers, and it is it is a

Harry Potter hungry games au. And how many of those three hundred thousand words have you read? Rose, I'm not at liberty. I was. Let's just say that a couple of months ago. I was very bored one weekend you had. But the thing is, even though it is, even though wolf Start is one of the main pairings, it's not the main pairing. The main pairing of the story is James Potter, Harry Potter's dad, and Regulus Black, serious Black's younger brother, who never even appears in the Harry Potter books.

He is simply so if you if you remember your Harry Potter lore, the locket that was one of the horcruxes was stolen by Regulus Black, who was a death theater, and then he was like, actually, Baltimore, you suck, so I'm gonna steal the locker and he left the note that was a whole thing. So he has now become like a fandom creation, essentially very interesting. People ship him with James Potter. Harry Potter said, even though there is

literally no no textual evidence behind this. Also, James Potter is like has no very few characteristics like in the franchise. But so but I think the reason why this became so popular is because of TikTok, because people make fan edits and they do fan casts, and so the most popular fan cast for Regulus Black is Timothy Shallow May I would love that. And some of these fan edits are like very well done. And the most popular fan cast for James for a young James Potter is young

Aaron Taylor Johnson. Aaron Taylor Johnson, Oh my god, Aaron Taylor Johnson needs to become like, you know, a part of like the like a virgin pantheon. Like he's sold him and his old wife, and that's so hot. I just think it's very interesting that the Hunger Games, like while that's sort of dystopia, has fallen out of fashion, and like while I was saying before, it's not really

like a fun universe to exist in. It is something that people keep coming back to in a way that they want to always be filtering the characters and fandoms they're interested in. Through that Lens. I think because of what we were talking about before about how it is sad and like bleak, and there's something appealing about the angst of that and like the the steaks of it, and I don't know, I find that fascinating and and

it is there. We are going to have somewhat of a Hunger Games renaissance way this new film, The Ballad of Songbirds and Steaks, which is about um young President snow Oh the cock Trucker shape fashion Cox Sucker hunter Shiver is such a perfect cast to me because she deserves to be in an action franchise. She deserves to be in something that's not you for it. Yes, yes, exactly. And also she will just much like Jennifer Lawrence, can

bring emotional steaks to something that's hyper unreal um surreality. Um. But anyways, on the kind of fan casting shipping the thing that you just outlined and thinking about, you know, the popular characters that everyone wants to stand in Harry Potter, who is the couple that everone ships or maybe should ship in your eyes in the Hunger Games franchise, Like two characters that really should have got it on and

would be an amazing story in and of themselves. Oh well, I mean this is like sort of alluded to in the films more than it was in the books. But Effie and Hay Mitch, oh yeah, they have scenes a kind of Effie that is, to me, Eliza Elizabeth Banks's best work. I it definitely is incredible. And I think the character development over the course of the franchises when

stabs the table that is um I have. I did say this during our Twilight episode, I believe, But I did unfortunately break up with somebody after having a fight with them about which characters who were in the Hunger Games while we were watching it, because so who do

you think you are? Okay, So the way the fight went down was like he immediately was like, oh you're Effie blah blah blah, and I was like, okay, not no, but like there was this kind of like tension slash recurring conflict like my X and I would have about me being a corrupt capitalist or something like that, and like and I was just like, Okay, so I see the undercurrent of what you're trying to say there, but I'm going to take it and stride because I think

that's really funny. And so I was just like, well then, or Peter because he is Peter, because he I was like, because you're like a whiny little bit. Okay, well, who do you think you are? Um, he is a whiny little bit, by the way, Um, I believe you. I do think. I believe. I do think I am thank you. I do think I'm Effie. I do I think that I have in my own life a character arc like Effie's. Like I the place that I was ten years ago to where I am now has not different belief systems

the way Effie has. But I've grown a lot in like my trajectory as a human being and what I want to do with my life. And I'm proud of that. And I'm not trying to like you know, get rid of like who I was before. And I also still retain some characteristics from my capitalist days that like you know, are part of my judge like I would say, yes, I would say that's mahogany okay, like that I would And I am um the girl from the first movie who's played by the girl from Orphan who throws daggers,

the one that gets naked in the elevator. No, oh no, I'm Joanna, Oh my god, Joanna, Jenna Malone? Who wait? Remember that one time we went to Atrium for brunch in l A Jennama and I told you Jenna Malone had just last and I was like, who is? And I like caught eyes with her, and I'm like, j was actually kind of gabbed by that, and I'm like very unfazed by seeing famous people out in the wild. But that scene where she gets into the elevator and

takes all her clothes off is iconic. Jenna Moroni should have been in Hunger Games, so she should have been in the capital. I'm I'm Joanna if I'm gonna if I'm gonna be any of the Hunger Games characters. But okay, so who should have been a couple? Somebody gay? Right? Yes? So I would say Joanna and Catness. Yeah. I think Catness should have should have should have, you know, followed her her instincts and ditched these guys. And then I'm

also going to say Peter and hay Mitch. Yeah yeah, And let me tell you the end of the story would have been, there would have been much more harmony. I think if he had gotten with Peta and if Jennifer Lawrence had been a lesbian like that, I think would have satisfied their overall needs as humans. Because back to what I was trying to say before, trauma, bonding is not love. And it's true that like, yes, like she's going through this trauma, trauma that's literally like in

the books, in the movies, and she's to us. They're not totally saying it the way I'm saying it, but it's like cattiness is kind of saying towards the end of these films, it's like, I have gone through something that literally no one else understands unless you've been in the thing, right you have. If you haven't been in the Hungry Games, you don't understand my trauma. And so because there was no going back for Catness, catness emotionally

it makes sense. I I can concede that Gail is no longer a fit, which is why she should have gotten with a woman who was in the Hunger Games. Yeah, but even I think even outside of even outside of the Hunger Games, catness Is experience was more singular than anyone else because not only was she manipulated, and this is the whole point of the last film, is not only was she manipulated by the Capital in a very

obvious way, she was then manipulated by the Resistance. That's the whole reason why she kills Julian Moore at the end. It's because she's like, I'm not going to let this happen again, because the way the Hunger Games end is the Resistance is like, Okay, now we're going to start the Hunger Games again, just with the children from the Capitol, and Catness is like, it's never gonna fucking end, So

I'm just gonna kill you. And then Donald Sutherland like laughs, He's like ha ha, and then Catiness, you know, she removes herself from an entirely. She and Peter go back to District twelve and just like have a bunch of kids and like fucking big bread for the rest of their lives. Fuck and big bread. Now that is a happy ending. Um slide into our d m s at like a virgin. Tell us what would your weapon of choice be on the Hunger Games? Do you think you

would survive? Um? Are you more of a Capital girly or you in one of the districts? Are you team Peter, team Gail, team Effie? We want to know um and please rate and review us on Spotify and Apple Music. We really appreciate that. My name's Rose Damn. You can find me anywhere online at Rose Damn you and I'm Fran Toronto. You can find me at Friends, Squish, go anywhere you like. Like a Virgin is an I Heeart

radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Unter with support from Lindsey with support from Lindsay Hoffman and Nikki Etre Until next week. Um boom, that's the sound of the cannon that that happens when someone dies in the Hunger Games. You know, I can't whistle, so that was very triggering. Three