Slay What You Wanna Slay (feat. Evan Ross Katz)

to say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We've already talked about so many things that are very formative to you, but Buffy really is that thing. It is that thing. It has shaped so much of who I am in the world. And like, obviously that's complicated now because of the just Weeden of it all, but I'm really excited to dig into Buffy and why it's so important, and like especially the women of Buffy, like why why they're so important.

And there's no better person to have this conversation with us than Evan russ Katz, who is a writer cultural critic. Buffy correspond Buffy, Buffy Corresponded his story Buffy um who is literally writing the book on Buffy. Um, and we're so excited to talk about it with him today because this is like a Virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm most damn you and I'm Fran Toronto, and I'm feeling a sacred calling to

talk about what's going on in pop culture today. Um. So, I woke up this morning to a cultural rest a shift. I felt something in the air, smelled it. I felt my breasthts were sore. So that's how I knew even before I opened Twitter that Rihanna had done something and I'm sure it was not make an album. Correct. Yes, no, Um, Rihanna is pregnant with her first child with I mean the father I don't believe is like it's it's Rihanna's baby,

but it is with Asap Rocky who. I guess like people thought that they had broken up maybe, but they are expecting a child. I think your initial reaction was correct. The father doesn't exist, um, and real is Madonna with child.

This is a sacred baby. The spirit of our Lord and Savior has infimated her and betrothed to us, a savior I missed the I missed the old days when Rihanna used Twitter the way that the rest of us used Twitter to like clap back at people, or like, you know, the iconic like good luck booking that stage you speak of? Yeah, yeah, same, I missed the olden days of Rihanna when she was releasing Anti, which is the best Rihanna album. Sorry about it? Well, someone did

tweet this morning. Um how it was very wrong of Rihanna to announce this news the week of the Anti anniversary because it's just like solidifying the fact that we are not getting an album like maybe ever again. Oh my gosh, but we have Maybe the album needed Me is one of my favorite Rihanna songs of all time. Love on the Brain higher like read. I like that you are willfully ignoring Rihanna's baby and instead choosing to

have a retrospective for Anti. This is the only thing I actually really need to must be Love on the Brain. Why do I sing so much on this podcast? Yeah? I don't know. We're not trying to make because like, I don't sing that much in real life. I think our producers saying it's because we're musical theater girls. Yeah, we are recovering, recovering, recovering, musical theater, musical theater girls, to the tune of material Girls, I wanted to offer you Rose a brief fran cap of Real Housewives of

Salt Lake City. Go ahead. First of all, there was a huge I'm press release that I'm sure you saw posted on all Bravo social media accounts about how Jenny, the cast member of this franchise, who is maybe the most boring housewife we've had in quite some time, was fired for posting some really offensive things about black people during the Black Lives Matter protests of I did see

that last week. I just wanted to bring this up because obviously Jenny deserved the boot, and like, I am glad that Bravo did something about it, But it has to be said that Bravo only did this for opportunism because they wanted to fire Jenny anyways, and so they took this moment to post about why Jenny is a bad girl and like dismissing her for her racism and like she's no longer part of the show. I just

don't understand. I guess how the show is kind of pulling its like racial politics together when like someone like Ramona exists in Housewives like or when someone like Mary who isn't going to be in the next season like gets to go quietly. What I'm trying to say is, like Bravo, not tolerate racism is like completely incoherent when you look at the rest of like the House Lives

Cinematic University. You know what I'm saying, Yeah, And it's I mean, I think telling that the fall person for this bad behavior is someone who isn't white exactly exactly say that, not that any of her behavior is excusable, but it really is very telling. Um. You know what's moderately better background TV Paul's Drag Race, which I am continuing to watch. What did you think of this week's episode? And like j Lo's cameo quote, I mean, can cameo

is a generous term. It literally I mean we paid her for They paid her for a cameo and set her to script lots were I mean, I think it says a lot about j Lo as a celebrity that like when they have done the other pop girlies, they are like a lot of times doing iconic like performance looks or like music video looks for j Lo it's a lot of like this red carpet that you've never

seen photos of from like two years ago. You know, it's funny because j Loo is not necessarily as much of a fashion queen as like when they did Night of a Thousand Madonnas or Night of a Thousand Shares or whatever. It kind of felt a little more lukewarm. But I felt Willow Hills look was stunning, and I thought that it was cute. She I think got the assignment really well and that she found kind of an ugo bagugo look that no one would remember and made

something that was very drag. I have to say, if I see that fucking Versace dress one more time, I'm going to claw my own eyes out. I don't care that Carrie how the actual one that j Lo wore. Like also that lip sync double elimination, they were both bad and and I and I like, I am happy to have Carrie stay, but I don't think she won that lip sync. I agree, I don't think she won the lip sync. I don't think either of them won. But the other queen whose name I've already forgotten and

will not care to learn, Alissa Hunter. Please don't tell me um, she definitely did worse than the challenge, but if we're going off the lip sync, like she was marginally better. If I were to get nitty gritty, Georgists should have been in the bottom. I think she really really tanked and Alyssa and Carrie, one of them should have been saved from the bottom because I just don't think that that was who our bottom two were. I

think they're both amazing performers in very different ways. I think Alyssa is like such a show girl and I appreciated her and felt like she should have gone further. Carrie maybe giving a very timid performance and drag race overall so far, but I do feel like she has what it takes to be a much more fierce competitor in face and in runway and in other components of the show. But like the runways just don't matter in

the grand scheme of how they eliminate girls. And I wish the judges would just say that, you know what I mean, like they are like low key my one

of my favorite parts of the show to watch. I agree, and like you know, I don't really feel like giving a ton of credit to someone who can afford an archival Jennifer Lopez for Sacchy dress or I guess it's not archival nineteen version, but it's like it still was a stunning runway, and if you're in the bottom, that's like that's gonna that's gonna save you, you know what I mean, Like she served and like the runways should be factoring into how they evaluate these, which is why

the bottom two made me so upset. Still, double elimination, I just always think it should be a double yeah you or quadruple. Honestly, I would like to be eliminated. I think before we move on to talking about Buffy, like we should briefly touch on and just like that, which today the season finale is out, um, but as we are, you know, coming to from the past. We haven't seen it yet. So based on where this penultimate episode ended, Like, what are your predictions for the finale?

It's Samantha going to show up well, and I don't think it's going to happen. I don't think so either. I think that is like so far and beyond which she's going to show up in a post credit scene like Nick Fury at the end of the adventure. Yeah, I don't know. I I honestly, i'd be curious to hear your predictions briefly on the last episode, I just have, honestly one remark this writer's room trying to imagine the

hottest club in Brooklyn unquote unquote. First of all, Brooklyn doesn't have clubs, Like, we don't really do clubs really, Like that's not a thing. I mean, there are clubs, it's just like we're not going to them. It is.

It was kind of hard to watch. And also sorry, someone who is at this stage in her career like Carrie would not be waiting in line at a club, like if she went to the front, even if she was like kind of can I really like kind of choogy internet celebrity that no one likes the way you would let a real housewife into a party, no matter who she is, you'd be like, oh, but I don't

think Carrie has that kind of face recognition. You don't think No, I think maybe I think she should have had her while I was going to say her publicists, but she doesn't have on anymore because Samantha, she would have had her publicists call ahead and get her on the list. Maybe that's no Samantha. So there we go.

My big question watching the episode was at the end of the last episode, Miranda was flying to Ohio to see Chay and confess her love, and then in this episode, like all they're just all a brunch and like there's no mention of what happened, So, like, what what happened?

That was? So I understand that, like in the o G. Sex in the City, like it is truly episodic, and so there are huge time jumps between all these episodes, and so I don't know why, but it's much more jarring and and just like that, I think because they've created these hour long stories that, um, in my opinion, are pretty serialized, and so I just I don't really it is a little jarring. And I think that even if they do earn it most of the time, like

they're good enough writers to like earn it. That I totally agree. Was like it was such an explosive moment to like take a cab to an airport for it to be completely disregarded. Yeah, but I did like that Miranda like had that moment where she recognized she was

being insane and not acting like herself. But like it's a little too little, too late, especially after the moment between Steve and Carrie where he said he was never taking his wedding ring off, but also like that was so different than the tune he was singing last week where he was saying he was done fighting for their marriage.

There's no consistency in the characterizations from episode to episode, and that makes me wonder, like, Okay, next week is like Miranda going to have a come to Jesus moment where Chay like disappoints her in some way and she goes back to Steve. You know, I agree that there's there's an emotion an emotional incontinuity, but I do think that there's consistency in saying I'm done fighting for you, but also like You're going to break my heart forever.

Months have passed, I guess since we last saw them, so it would make sense that he would come around to kind of a new frame of mind. I think I bought that. I guess what I'm kind of struggling with is Naya's like I vf fully just don't care. I think that I don't care. They need they to get me to care. She needed to be more part of everyone else's stories, Like yes, I can, I can recognize that that's a compelling story, even though it's one we've already seen before with Charlotte and Trey back in

the original series. But she's just not a part of the rest of the story enough for me to care about it. I totally agree, and like, I commend what's kind of trying to be done incorporating new kind of characters into this universe in in the name of inclusion, which I think in a kind of tokenism is like really annoying, but I I think they're genuinely trying. I think what like I feel both of us are kind of annoyed with, is that seeing scenes without any of

our girls is very jarring. It's a different show. It's a show I would want to watch. It's a show I would be engaged in, but it's not Sex in the City. And so I appreciate the swing of trying

to incorporate new perspectives and narratives. I just wish it was kind of more entwined, and to borrow a take from the Every Outfit podcast, like, it's also it sucks that like all the people of color in the show, like that their plotlines are such bummers, Like Seema is like I guess creating a fake marriage to please her parents LTW is just kind of like bickering with her husband and Naya, you know, and this I V F thing,

like Bear rely has a single moment of levity. And again it's just I think it's a failure of the imagination for like rich people of color in this show. I think Seema is the best iteration of it, and like she is like so faboo and like I'm I'm invested in her as a character for season two of the show, but it still doesn't They haven't quite smoothed over all the layers of it um tonally, you know what I mean. Yeah, I think also one of the problems is that, like I get and just like that

is not Sex in the City. But the thing was Sex in the City was that carries friends lives were important because not just because we found them compelling as characters, but because what they were going through in the episodes was thematically linked to what Carrie was talking about in her columns. So all the stories have these like larger

thematic connects exactly, And that's just not happening here. Everything is just like here's a bunch of stuff that's happening all these people's lives, so that just like feels weird to me and just like bad writing. But I guess that's my prediction for the finale is like there will be more kind of like confusing bad writing stuff. Um, we are getting a mitzvah, which is going to be a lot. Har enf is playing the trans rabbi. You kidding? Um, yeah, it was in the preview that Okay, that's sick. I'm

here for Harry as a as a rabbi. I think all I'm hoping for is that these women get something fun to do next week. I hope so. But we will see you up the the mitzvah. Today we're talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer and there is literally no one better to do that with them with our guest

Evan ross Katz, thank you both. And I just gotta say, I feel like years ago, when I would see you on Twitter, I'd be like, oh my god, she's someone who also sees the show like I see the show, and like really, I started to realize that there was like a fandom that exists twenty plus years later, and like we still are out there and it's like you see someone that posted about Buffy and it like it connects you to that person because you're like, oh, you

may maybe you see the world how I see the world. It is this little insider club and a way to just know someone's cool if they like Buffy. AG. So you're declaratively saying that I'm not cool. That's not that's not actually what I'm saying. If that's what you're inferring, then that's up to you. I guess I should clarify that I like Buffy, but I personally have not consumed Buffy the way y'all have because y'all were from the dark question mark from season two. From season two, that's

that's when I started as well and then went back. Yeah, okay, okay, And I personally have only, you know, done a cursory watch of the first season. I'm not in the weeds of it. But again, like I said that, I'm a

student today and I'm here to learn what I mean. Yeah, but I was gonna say, like I feel like with season like when I first watched it, I look back now and I don't know what I was taking away from it because I literally was a preteen and so so many and as you mentioned yeah, yeah, and like I go back now and I'm like, I don't know the show that I was watching or what I was

taking away from it. I'm glad I found it, but like so many of the jokes and the references, like I had no idea what was going on, and to this day I get something new from every every time I watched an appo completely there's so many layers of references and like little like physical moments of humor that

I just didn't catch on first watching. There's a line in season three I forgot the name of the episode, but it's one sentence in Sarah Michelle Geller literally references Willie Lohman from Death of a Salesman and then talks about the real world. And it's just like the way that she just sort of goes in and out of something that's like an Arthur Miller play and then like

an MTV reality show. And I again and both of those things over my head at the time, but now I go back and watch him, like this show is just so smart. Well, for all of our virgins out there, which this week includes a friend, Um, Evan, do you want to give us like a you know, a brief little synopsis of what Buffy is. Yeah, so Buffy was based off of a film that was written by Josh Sweden, and when we say his name, we're using verbal asterixes

over the vowels um. But basically the premise of the film, which sort of sort of more or less carries over into the series, was that there he wanted to subvert the idea of the blonde girl in the alley that dies in a horror film, and he basically was like, I want to have her take back the night. I want her to not only survive, but thrive and be powerful and actually be able to take out the bad guys.

And so the character of Buffy was born. In the film, she's a little bit more flat, she's more of like just sort of a dizzy valley girl who's given this identity as the chosen one, the slayer. And then in the television series she becomes a lot more nuanced thanks to the writing, but mostly thanks to the performance of Sarah Michelle Geller. And so the series just basically chronicles her battling physical demons and then the demons that live with so many of us, and so there's sort of

this metaphor. Yeah, it was the show that popularized the idea of the monster of the Week episode UM, and it also was the show that created the idea of the big bad UM of having a season of serialized television that was like all like thematically linked by one story and leading towards one big confrontation. And in so many ways, Buffy was the blueprint for like everything that exists on TV no completely and also just like treating

young people. You know, there's this thing right now because there's so many shows out there, from sex Education to Euphoria that treat teens like teens really are, but that wasn't so much. The trend at the time was very actually after school special, like everything was like a lesson, And I feel like Buffy was one of the first shows to really treat teens as young adults, as people who have maybe heightened emotions, but those emotions are very

real when you're living through them. At the time, it sort of didn't um look down upon teen aks. It actually celebrated teenang totally, and those emotions were so real that they became literal monsters because those monsters were reflections of what the characters were dealing with. And I think in Buffy the slayer, you know, defeating them. They never made that like a shorthand for having to deal with the actual issues, Like Buffy always had to figure her

ship out. It wasn't like she just got to slay a monster and everything went away. There was so much like unpacking of trauma and you know, like dealing with you know, romantic relationships and platonic relationships and familial really and chips and it's just like the best show ever.

I watched the first episode with like an O G. Buffy stand like someone who watched the movie like when it came out, and then we came obsessed with Buffy from there, which I think, I don't know, do a lot of Buffy stands, like even what like I actually

didn't even know that there was a movie. Do a lot of Buffy stands start with the TV show and then go back to the movie, or like, well, I would say that the film is like not Cannon, but it but it kind of is because they like I like that they didn't totally throw it out, because they make references to the villain in the movie. And in season two, the flashbacks to Buffy at her old school, like she does talk about how she burned down the

gym in her old school. You see like a version of her that is closer to what we saw in the movie. But you understand in the first season that Buffy has gone through a major change after like the events of the first movie, and that's what makes it okay for her to be this new character played by this new actress. And there's one moment in the film that I actually think carries through in terms of the character of Buffy that's actually like one of my favorite

moments in the film. Buffy is played by Christy Swanson, another actor who are going to use asterixes around the vowels in their name. You can google that if you want. But so Christie plays Buffy, and then Luke Perry, the Great Luke Perry is her love interest Pike, and there's a scene in the very end of the film they're dancing during the prom and he says to her, Buffy, you're not like the other girls, and she says, yeah,

I am, and I kind of love that. Then you get crystallized this idea that like Buffy, all Buffy wants to be is like everybody else, and the struggle for Buffy is actually like trying to subjugate her greatness, which actually comes to a head in season seven of the series, you know, which we won't get into deep dive, but I think that one of the interesting things that the show does that it carried over from the film was this idea that like Buffy actually just wants to be

a normal girl. Um, she doesn't want to have these superpowers or be perceived to be like better than others. But circumstance does not allow for that, and so much of the tension of the show is her trying to reckon with that, and then, like you said, in the later seasons, she really starts to accept that she's different. I would say like season five is probably where that happens the most, when she you know, like starting with Buffy versus Dracula, that she is realizing that she is

like not she's not human, She's not a normal girl. Um, she never will be. I want to talk a little bit about like that whole normal girl thing, but I want to start with like, um kind of Buffy's place like in the cultural context of this kind of heroine, you know what I mean, because like being like oh, yeah, you know, the bimbo that dies at the beginning of the movie is now going to be the hero of

the story. Like I actually had no idea that that was like Buffy's conceived, But when I watched the first episode, I mean, she's not like super like Jugsy, but she has like you know, she's got like a mini skirt.

She has like a valley girl accent. And I think that dichotomy of like shrewd smart, like a total killer and also like I have a valley girl accent is like the beginning of like a lot of things that like we consume like right now, you know, um, because like I don't know what was the TV like at that time, it was probably like what um, like everybody loves Raymond and like like this Dawson's Creek. Yeah, like you think about what else was on the WB when

Buffy r Seventh Heaven Charms Dawson's Creek. But I do feel like of the because you have to realize at the time, the w B was very much like a fledgling network. Dawson's Creek came in night so like Buffy had just premiered. I would say their tenthole, their tent pole series at the time, was Seventh Heaven. Which like looking back on it, like was not exactly moving the need.

It did not age well. However, it was one of the few things that my family I was allowed to watch in my family because they were like loosely Christians somehow or quite I don't even remember. But so it was kind of the the one of the first shows that was kind of being used to launch the network in many senses, but like there wasn't a lot of belief in the material. Buffy was passed over by the w B originally and actually resurrected, if you will, as

a midseason replacement. So that's why the first season is only twelve episodes, was because they kind of weren't so sold on it um, which makes sense. I mean, it's you know, Buffy the film is not a failed movie, but when it came out at the time, Death Becomes Her came out the same weekend as Buffy the Movie, and Death Becomes Her was like this huge hit. But what's interesting is like the budget of Buffy the Movie

is quite small. So like Buffy did fine, it's not like it did terribly at the box office, but it's not the kind of property you would go to and be like, yes, let's make this movie. Let's develop this five years later into a television series. But Josh had won an Oscar in the interim for writing the screenplay for Toy Stories, So he was a hot commodity and I think that helped kind of landed on the w B and they were like, let's take you know, let's roll the dice with this, and then it worked out.

And also he had the backing of Dolly Parton. He did, yes, she was like an executive producer. Ye yes, yeah, her company sand Dollar Entertainment. Um, yeah, they were backers of the show, and they were I believe it was Sandy Gallen. I could be wrong about the Sandy Gallen who was her partner who actually went to Johnson was like we we actually want to do something with this, and jos said no way. And it was Josh's ex wife, Kay Cole, who actually convinced Joss to be like, no, no, no,

there's something here. Let's let's take a leap. So a lot of women behind the scenes in those early days were actually the ones to sort of like spearhead this vision. I think Joss gets a lot of credit for creating Buffy and like he is the creator of course, but I think there were a lot of other people, particularly women behind the scenes that kind of helped usher it forward.

Well that's also so true in the writing because writers like Marty Knoxon and um Jane Spenson, um, you know, have have written what I think are some of the best episodes of Buffy ever, um, the ones that really like hit you in a in a like really deep way, and they have since gone on to I think, make works that like I think about something like Sharp Objects, UM that Marty Knoxon was, um maybe executive producer creator, um and like you know this through line of like

how women deal with trauma. Um, how like yeah, she

is kind of over credited with it. Well, I mean not to discredit, but I mean I don't want to get into the John Sueden of of it all yet, but I do feel like the big part of like his pr Ston and like what he was talking what he talks about in a lot of his like films in post is like about him being you know, the inventor of the strong female lead and like this kind of like this woman with autonomy, but like there was I mean, Xena was on TV before that, and like

Sailor Moon, yes, yeah, like the kind of bimbo heroine or like the I'm just a girl, but like I also fight crow. Yeah. I think what Buffy subverted from something like Zeno, which without a doubt as a precursor, was that, like in the case of Zena or Wonder Woman or Catwoman, they were all wearing costumes. So it was this idea that, like, to be my strong self, I somehow have to wear I have to put on a different identity, has to become Sailor Moon, exactly right.

And so with Buffy, it was this idea that, like I go to school and then I go out in the graveyard at night and fight demons, and I'm still wearing the same clothes that I wore from school, my high socks, my my Kashmir turtleneck, skin tight. So I think like the duality was in her existence but not

in her presentation. And I think that really was a switch up from the female fighters or the female sort of action stars that we were seeing at the time, when it was not only did they have to change over, but like in the case of Sailor Moon or with Wonder Woman, it was like a big to do that they were changing form like and with Buffy was just she's this girl. She walks through high school as the slayer and she slays demons as a high school girl.

Let's talk about some of the you know, supporting cast, because I think that that is what makes the show is you know, the Scooby Gang, and I think everyone is able to like find themselves in a different Buffy character, and that is I think the main difference from the in the movie translation to the TV show is like in the film, all she has is her watcher and a boyfriend, and she is this very lone figure um And in the show, I think it was so important

to give her this cast of characters to work off of. So you have Xander played by Nicholas Brendan Asterix is again he canceled to oh man, he's just as canceled as jobs. Yeah, we don't. You can google it. There's a lot to google. We're not going to do that. Then there's Willow played by Alison Hannigan, who is this like nerdy computer girl when the show starts and eventually matures into an extremely powerful witch and a lesbian. You

also have Charisma Carpenter as Cordelia speak her name. She is she She is basically set up as who Buffy used to be before she became the Slayer, and she is this really interesting foil for her um and is honestly I think one of the best characters in the entire show, Like she gets the best lines, um. She I think she's like one of the most iconic parts

of the show. And she is clearly it's clearly a personality that they felt was necessary to have in the show, because when she leaves, she's replaced by Anya, who provides sort of the same like space in the show of being like the sort of caustic, tactless person who's going

to just say everything they think with no filter. Um. Then you of course have Buffies Watcher Giles played by Anthony Stewart Head who's her mentor, and he starts the show off as like a very stuffy like British man and eventually becomes really a father figure to Buffy, who does all these expository scenes in libraries that were really

helpful for me as a first time watcher. I was just like, oh, if I need to know the summary, yeah, he'll lay it all out, you know, Like there's that sort of if you know, you know caption that we put on lots of things on social media. I think Buffy is filled with if you know, you know moments throughout the show that are sometimes laid out as easter eggs, but sometimes there's like a throwaway moment that, for instance, I keep thinking about, are we allowed to spoil for you?

So like Buffy's sister arrives in season five, but in seasons three and four, she there are little hints laid out that again, if you know, you know, if if if your ear is a tune to it, you will hear it. And I think that the show is just really really great at treating its viewers smart. And I know another show I'm obsessed with, which I promise will

be the one time I mentioned, but Survive Eiver. Survivor is not great at respecting the intelligence of its viewers, and it's one thing that really frustrates me as a view And it's not the only show, but I think Buffy just like had a grasp of not only treating the teens that it's writing as intelligent people, but also treating the teams that are watching the show as intelligent.

And I really value that. When I was younger. That's definitely something that a lot of cult classics have in common, is kind of like the world built inside of like the inside jokes and the references that you will only catch if you've like watched it all the way through. Like these are totally separate. But like I'm thinking a lot about Arrested Development, and when it first came out, it had no commercial success and people didn't get it

because it like preceded streaming. But when people watched it all in a row, they saw all of the Easter eggs in like in a line, and we're like, oh my god, this thing's happen. That's happening three seasons later, as referential of like the funniest joke from season one, And like, I think a lot of things that like are determined niche or determined like on the margins of like pop culture, are often just things that people didn't

have the stamina to like sit down and understand. But but even not sitting down understanding, we still have a cultural awareness of them because of what phenomenons they were. Like you're only now watching the first season of Buffy, but like you still have some kind of literacy and what it is and like the impact of it. Yeah, not a ton, but like, of course knowing that Buffy is massive and this like cultural entity that has paved

the way for a lot of other things. And actually this is like because my cultural my reference point is like very boring. Like my only real knowledge of like Buffy growing up was the fact that, like I did watch a lot of like after school stuff on UPN, and you could not watch a single thing on UPN

without watching a Buffy commercial. Noting the Buffy commercials were um and I think that's what actually might have made me watch the first episode of it, was seeing a commercial while I was watching something else and it looked really spooky and sexy, and I was like, even as

a little kid, I wanted to watch that. And I started watching during season two and then went back and there was a set of VHS tapes that had like selected episodes from season one, So I bought those and watched them because you know, there was no other way at that point to go back and watch them. And then also Buffy was such a cultural jug or not that there were novelizations of the episodes, there were original novels set in the universe that were like sanctioned fan fiction.

I guess um there were you know, action figures like Ever's huge the franchise. And I think a huge, huge part of the conversation is that is the fandom and the world built outside of Buffy, because I think, again, many things about the show are quite unprecedented, but like that did not exist. This really is like the beginnings of the Internet as we know it, and I think Buffy fans very quickly discovered one another and the conversations

that were happening. Sure, they began a sort of being like what did you think about this thing that happened, but it also led to like connections happening and fan meetups happening, and Josh and the writers and the cast famously or infamously depending on how you look at it, would go on the message boards. And they've even admitted that storylines were affected by fan response to the show. So it was just very much a fandom that was

in conversation. And and you know, we have convention culture today and and that you can really fandom is so ingrained in sort of pop culture, but that wasn't the case at the time. And I remember, like it was not cool to like Buffy you know, Um No, it was something that I definitely did in secret, at least for the first couple of years. And you're so right, like Buffy was my entrance into fandom. Was the first time I ever read and wrote fan fiction was because

of Buffy. Um. The first time I really found any sort of like online community was reading message boards about like theories and spoilers. I remember at one point there was one website that day before new episodes came out, they would have like a full description of what happened in the episode because they had somehow gotten it early. And I used to read them because I couldn't wait. Yeah, and that's another part, and this is not just Buffy. This is one thing that I think is lost on

a lot of young people today, the waiting process of television. Yeah. And like you mentioned those sort of like next Time on Buffy or or those commercials that would air on U PAN and yes they were ubiquitous. Well upn didn't have a lot to sort of um, but those commercials having to wait for the next week to see how these plots were unfold, And especially when you're talking about like season two for instance, and you're getting into like seasonal arcs in which you're like, oh my god, having

to wait seven days between episodes and build anticipation. What are you gonna do? You're gonna turn to those online forums and the other fans because you want to stay engaging on the show and because there's not Twitter, or there's not places to sort of, um go and just see memes being made or people talking about our podcast recap podcast, all of these sort of like ancillary things

that exist now with media. You go to those message boards, or you're writing fan fiction, or you're getting the action figures, or you're like me, and I'm like literally handwriting messages to Sarah Michelle Geller and sending them in the mail, lying to her and saying I had seen cruel intentions even though I was gonna allow to. You're finding some way to keep engaging with the show because it's it's

within you and you want to express that somehow. Okay, you, you more than me, are Sarah Michelle Geller, Stan and her historian. Um I'm I love her, but I think your love for her is like so apparent in in your it's in the social persona. Um so, like is

this where you fell in love? With her. No, I actually fell in love with her on All my Children, Yeah, because my best friend's mom was obsessed with All my children, So when we would come home from school, she would have them taped on her vhs UM and we would watch My Children and Sarah Michelle Geller played Kindall Heart, the daughter of Susan Lucci's character her she want an Emmy Award. But that's when I first became intrigued by her.

And then I would be like at the grocery store and see like Baby and Bop magazine, and she would be featured in it quite a bit, and and I just was like, who is this person? And so I knew when Buffy happened, I knew who she was. I wasn't yet like the super fan by that point, but All My Children was really the entry point and to be like, there's something about this person that I like naturally feel compelled to follow and that has always stuck

with me. I feel very magnetized to her in a very strange way that I knows people like you can relate to, but like she's extremely compelling, and I think a big part of why Buffy works is because of her dent, Like who else. I mean someone else auditioned for the role before her, who was Katie Holmes action for the role, and several others, and so funny enough, Sarah Michell Geller was originally cast as Cordelia on the show,

and what she would have been so great. She would have been great, And basically what happened was they weren't

to find a Buffy. They called her, and she was worried about whether or not to go in for Buffy because basically, and she says us in the book, She's like, there's a world in which they start to see you so much as they're starting to see you as Buffy that they no longer see you as Cordelia, And if they go with somebody else for Buffy, then they're kind of like, well, wait a minute, you're not right for

Cordelia anymore. And so she was worried. Um, but she kept going in and kept going in, and then eventually she was cast. But yeah, there's something about her performance. I mean I say this in all seriousness and people often laugh at it, but I'm not joking. To me, there's like Meryl Streep and there's Viola Davis, and they're Sarah Michelle like she's in that same pantheon. She just haven't hasn't been given the opportunities that those women have

by way of like role versatility. Well, she did everything on Buffy and she she did you know, the like Spunky, you know, Valley Girl, teenager, she did the heroine. She did like really emotional work, like when you think about everything that happened with Angel in season two, when you think about the body. Um, she's also really amazing at comedy. I think of some of the more like one off episodes like things like him in season seven or be

which Bothered and Bewildered in season two. Um, she has an amazed she has amazing comedic timing, and she's like

just very good at selling the joke. Agreed. And then there's also like some other like random things about her that are like not often talked about, but like, for instance, she looks good kicking, but like there's so many things that's like her, Like physical prowess in the role is just incredible where it's like it's not funny, it doesn't read weird to watch this five foot too blonde woman kicking these huge mutants asses it it makes sense because of the way she sells it. Yeah, she's so good.

It frustrates me that I don't care that she didn't really get a lot of awards recognition, but it frustrates me that she was not given the respect at the time for her acting because I look at like someone like Zendia winning an Emmy Award for Euphoria now and as she completely deserved, and I'm like, I feel like if Buffy were on now, we would be looking at that performance with a lot more. We'd be celebrating it more.

Sci Fi fantasy, horror exists in a different cultural context now than it did when Buffy was on, Like horror is now so elevated. We are much more celebratory to things that center teenagers, that center women, that center queer people. And also Game of Thrones really changed the way we talk about sci fi and fantasy and it being prestige. So I do think in a way, Buffy like set

the culture up to be able to do that. Buffy was ahead of its time, for sure, But I think that you're so right, Like a big part of like kind of Sarah Michelle Geller not getting like her flowers at least at that time, was in large part of thing because the show was ahead of its time, but also because like I would even argue, like even today, like we don't respect like genre stuff they like even though we have you know, the Jordan's Peels and like

we have like correct like ariasters and we have that kind of like, um, we have the prestige. So I find the prestige horror, those things still aren't getting nominated for awards like to should have an awesome That's a great, great example, and it wasn't even contention because people don't view it that way because the genre. I completely agree Anya Taylor Joy should have been nominated for The Witch.

I would love to talk about this because I think what happens like within sci find within horror is people can't see past sensationalist gore, or they can't see past the camp that is intrinsically good, but they think it's quote unquote bad or whatever. I think a lot of people don't know how to don't understand how to consume camp, or don't know how to understand how to consume like something that is like so I don't know. Outside of the world that we live in, I think we also

there's a big dissonance and disconnect. Like we celebrate film, we don't always celebrate movies. We don't always celebrate things that are made for entertainment and cultural consumption. We more celebrate things that are made as art, right, which is

why we're marketed as art. Yeah. And also misogyny is a huge part of this conversation because so often, especially at the time, when because Buffy was a critical darling from the outside, I mean, Buffy, That's the one thing Buffy always had going for it was the critics loved it,

and it always was praise about Joss. Literally, in my research for this book, I was really I really wanted to go back and read how people were talking about the show then versus now, because now I feel there's a lot of rose colored spectacles in terms of like, if you're talking about it, chances are you're talking about it because you love it, right, Why would you be

talking about it twenty years later. At the time, though, when people liked Buffy, it was the genius of Josh, always through the frame of Jos, never through the frame of Sarah. And I definitely think that is sort of the patriarchy at play and its most obvious way. Um, and that I think that is not just a Buffy thing. I think that happens oftentimes with when powerful women step up in these performances in genre. But there's a male director,

it's like he's the autour. He brought that out. I want to I actually want to know a little more about like little things that you discovered along your research

for the book. But before that, I kind of want to know a little bit more about like your cultural like induction into like Buffy, and like where where you are placed in time when you started writing like Sarah Michelle Geller fan letters, or like when you started consuming Buffy, what was the thing that immediately enraptured you, what kept you there? What were like the things that you did as a fan? Oh my god, I mean it was

pretty gross. I mean like I was the dirtiest, nastiest, and I think you and I are similar in this way.

But I think that Okay, obviously, I think as a young person figuring out there themselves on a show like Buffy, before you know, you get the introduction of Willow and she becomes sort of like she is an out lesbian by season four, um, but prior to that, the sort of queerness of Buffy for me really began in season two even before that, which is like, you have this character where she has this secret right like she is the Slayer, no one can know, she has to hide

it from her mother very Hannah Montana. Yes, and then at the end, yes, very much so. And at the end of season two she famously has this coming out scene where her and her mom getting this huge fight where she's like, you know, she's essentially saying, I am the Slayer, but in my mind, I'm hearing I am gay. And it's a direct correlation because Joyce even says, have you tried not being the Slayer? Which hands up to God for Joyce Summers Hello, Hello, But it was it's

riffing off of queerness completely. And so I think that before, you know, I'm watching Buffy before I even knew I was gay. But I think I'm sensing something not just in this powerful woman who I who I wanted to be, but also sort of like in this idea that she's walking through the world unable to fully express the wholeness

of herself. Yeah, And I think that it's funny because it's like later on in the show, you know, and so much of the show is celebrated for its queerness because of the character of Willow, as it should be. But I think there's something both implicitly and explicitly queer by Buffy, and the implicit parts of it were the ones that really resonated me when when I was younger, but it became my personality. It Like I remember like my rabbi, that was his thing where he was always

like talking to me about how much I love Buffy. Yeah, I mean it was just my whole town. It's like what define me. I used to be on the playground and I would teach the young girls how to be slayer. I mean like what did I know? Teach them like how to whole old their steaks and like how did

you know how to get your leg up high? Yeah, essentially right, And it's like you got to get the demon at the heart or the next So I was like, your kick has to go up past your hip because it's like you're not You're not gonna go for their crotch that they don't care, you know, you know, so

just you know, training. Um. Obviously writing her letters was a big part of it, but I think for how many letters, not like a ridiculous amount but like not an amount that I'm like proud to mention, but it was just like I and I still feel this way to this day, but like I loved to love it, like the act of loving it felt safe for me, and as someone who was like very relentlessly bullied in

my town. And I know so many people can relate to this to have something that was that sacred to me that gave me something to look forward to once

a week, but also to engage with other fans. And we're not find people that were like minded, and I think in Buffy fans, I then they weren't always lgbt Q plus people, but they were people that I think the rue line of a Buffy fan, often not always is a feeling of being mothered in some in some way throughout their life, particularly particularly in their young life. And I related to that so so much. And I feel like I owe this show a debt in so many ways because I don't know how it was a lifeline,

like in so many ways. You know, Rose and I have talked about this before when we talked about Harry Potter, But like the archetype of like the chosen one, which is like Buffy, which is Harry Potter, which is like I guess maybe Luke Skywalker, like these other kinds of like you've been kind of almost divinely or mythologically chosen to take on this thing. I think a lot about Hercules, Like the Disney Hercules was a very formative thing for me.

And that's also like a chosen one archetype, like I am a part of something like divine and bigger than me that like all of these normal people don't understand that there's something so queer within that that I think sounds like what you're talking about, like the kind of like cultural objects that like we would latch onto um where with protagonists where, and they were like, you know, no one really can understand what I'm going through because

like we're literally a completely different you know, we belong to a different classic And the fact that Buffy's journey was that early on she wanted to reject that otherness and then by the end of the show embraced it and shared it. Yes, yes, I mean all of this. So again, sometimes it's funny because when people don't watch the show, they're like, oh, that's the show about the girl like fighting vampires and demons and it's like, yeah, and there's a lot more happening and a lot of that.

I don't even know if that was like Joss being conscious of Like I don't think he was like writing with I mean, I don't know. It's hard to say, right, but it's like, I don't know if he realized the subtext that he was always putting on the paper. I think some of that was like stuff that we were picking up on. But I just yeah, that for me was like the hook and then that aspect of the show and then something about being magnetized to her um, And I remember, like, so the first time was I

it was seasoned you episode six, the Halloween episode. Um, that was the first time I was hooked from the outset and it was just all systems go from there and I never turned it off. I don't love the later parts of the show. Like, I'm not someone that's like Buffy is a perfect show by any measure, but I've revisited it throughout so many periods of my life, and I think that when Buffy is good, and it is good often, it is the greatest. I think it

is the greatest. I mean, how do you feel about the Supernatural elements because I feel like, from knowing you, that's not necessarily the kind of media that you gravitate towards. UM and Buffy obviously is a genre show of superpowers. I didn't completely so the so Slayers have supernatural strength, agility, reflexes, healing, UM, she has prophetic dreams. She has like a sense when monsters like watching it very stone, and I really could not grasp if she had powers or if she's kind

of had like you know, intrinsic martial arts. They're a little they're a little like loosely defined, like the yeah, like she's like really really strong when need be, and then she's kind of I have to say that is one of my favorite and this goes this is bigger than Buffy, but one of my great loves in any kind of media is when it's like the willingness to say fuck it to the rules and just be like it is because it is. And I think Buffy was really great about being like why would they be doing

X Y Z thing? It doesn't matter, Like if you're thinking that way, you're you're watching the show with the wrong lens. So Buffy was really great about like, yeah, there's totally moments in which it's like I think of like season four, episode one, when she's facing off against Sunday, which is she's just I love I love that episode. It's a vampire and like, all of a sudden, Buffy like cannot fight a vampire, and it's like she has

been up because she's depressed. There are a lot of things that there are a lot of things now that fall in the legacy of kind of like suck it and the linearity of the narratives that you were attached to and like thinking about even like something like Riverdale that is like so off the rails, or like any Ryan Murphy project, or like things where it's just like, oh my god, like it's a big fuck you, but in order to enjoy the show, you have to buy

into kind of like the bizarreness. And I prefer that I would rather have, like I really like genre stuff, and you know, I like sci fi and fantasy, and I would rather have, um, you know, someone whose abilities are like more undefined than like some Marvel hero where you're like, I know that they're this strong and they have these powers, and like I just think it like gives it gives like better opportunities for storytelling and to put the story first before the rules of the universe.

You know this Macey think a lot too about carry on sex in the city and her outfits and you know, and everyone. I remember the big thing about the show was like how could carry a four this apartment and all of these outfits, And it's like, if you're thinking about that, then you're watching the wrong show. That's exactly right to go to what you were saying. No, I'm

not really like a genre person by nature. It's something that I think that through the show, I definitely like got more into it, but it's not the natural genre that I go towards. But I think if nothing else, I come came away from the show having a lot more respect for genre and the ways in which people sort of like belittle the merit of of genre, and you know, in the sense it's like sort of like

the supernatural and whatnot. And I mean, I definitely like there were shows after the fact, like The Vampire Diaries that I watched, like it definitely brought me to other media that I wouldn't have come to you. But first and foremost, like when it comes to Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. I'm here for Sarah Michelle Geller first and foremost. Yeah, well, I love that you watched The Vampire Diaries. I watched,

I watched, I watched a little bit of it. And Buffy really was like a vampire cultural reset because I really look at like contemporary vampire media as pre and post Buffy, because you know, the context of when Buffy came out was like we were riding off of like Ann Rice and the Vampire Diaries and this idea of the romantic vampire who was like a little like foppish and gay and and like this sort of romantic hero

and Robert Pattinson and um. And then Buffy came in really reset that idea and made vampires into monsters again. And it was like so important that they, you know, changed into like a demon face and that's why you had the lore, that's why you had the lower um on Buffy that vampires had no soul, and that's why it was so like important when Angel lost his soul and then got it back and um. And then afterwards I think there was a return to the like brooding vampire.

Vampire Diaries kind of straddles it a little bit. Um and I think one of the things that that Vampire Diaries like fails that a little bit that Buffy didn't, was that they're two into defining things. They really like rules, but they will just keep making up new ones even though they contradict the previous ones. And that's the thing with Buffy. It's like when you only give as much as you need, it just gives you so much more to play with. Yes, do you know from your research

did Sarah Michelle Gellar do a lot of her own stunts? Yes. I think she did a lot of her sons that she was allowed to do because I, um, last week, I went to a screening of I Know What You Did Last Summer, which I hadn't seen since I was I mean since maybe like around the time that Buffy was on the air, and I definitely remembered her as being more of just like a scream queen in it. And I actually found like, it's surprising how how like um fiery she is in the movie and how she

like really fights back against the killer. And I was wondering, like, I feel like it came out probably like right around season two because she had the Bob kind of famously like the Killer cuts off all her hair and she has a bob, and I was wondering did the fact that she was Buffy impact the way that she was depicted in other films that she was in a the time, even though she didn't do a lot outside of Buffy um well famously, especially in that late nineties early era,

like women's women actors and their haircuts were like a big point of contention on like what roles they could book. I have to say that with I Know You Did last Summer, they chose the in my opinion, they chose the wrong final girl. I really do feel like Julie was the mistake. It should have been Sarah Machialgeller and Brandy and I still know. But that's uh, that's another conversation. But with so I Know You Did les Summer filmed between Buffy seasons one and season two, so Buffy season

one had not heard yet. But I do think that it's interesting and looking at I Know and Scream To, both of which she filmed, both of which she kind of played the blonde girl who gets who kind of version well, also the antithesis of Buffy in so many ways, that's like kind of like it's kind of like the world that would be without a Buffy and in so many senses, so I'm curious, like as an actress, if she was kind of like I want to like show the range of like I can be the one fighting

evil and I can be the one that's taken out by evil Buffy without her powers, then well I guess it's yeah, but well there is an episode where Buffy has no power. Stay tuned. But it's interesting that you mentioned I know, I Know what you did, And I had a similar reaction when I rewatched it because I remembered her being very damsel in distress in that movie. And it's a nine minute death scene. And there's a reason why it's nine minutes, because she keeps sort of

like evading this killer. And I love that deaf scene. I think a lot of people do. But it's sort of like fun because it's like she's not the sharpest and she's not the strongest, but she figures her weasels her way out of that car. She does she kicks the window out, She like tries to tell the cop what's going on. He doesn't listen. A cab Also, I Know What you did last summer is a movie about

restorative justice. Obviously we don't want to die. Even maybe to like wrap out the conversation, either in the research for this book or just like in how you've consumed

all things related to the creator of the show. Like you know, Rose and I we had a conversation about Harry Potter and like nuancing are so similar and stand um within something that we grew up with that didn't have this um like you know, decades later conversation related to something that we now have to like reconcile with, Like what because for anyone who doesn't know, you know, in in the past year or two, um, a lot of the cast have of Buffy have come forward and

talked about what a toxic environment there was on set and how abusive Josh Sweden was. It's so interesting that you draw the parallel to Harry Potter because I think that is extremely apt and also just sort of like how we divorce ourselves from a creator of an art piece that we really like. Well also acknowledging the fact, both in the case of Harry Potter and Buffy, these entities do not exist without the genius of these creators, right, So to deny that j K. Rowling and John Sweden

at one time created We're Geniuses, Our Geniuses. That part I can unpack, but I think that's really super difficult. I think what I learned from this book that was the most disheartening outside of the public allegations, and I get into this quite a bit in the book, was just the ways in which the women on this set

were systematically pitted against one another. There's a really interesting anecdote in the book, UM where basically the as had been offered a cover of a magazine and all of a sudden, the magazine was no longer happening, was just gonna be Sarah Michelle Geller on the cover, And basically a rumor was going around on set that the reason why that was was because Sarah Michelle Geller refused to do the magazine if it wasn't just her solo. So Emma Caulfield, who plays on You you you haven't met her

quite yet, but you will in season three. UM. But Emma Caulfield went around the set and started just telling everyone what a nightmare Sarah Michell Geller was, because it's like she's literally preventing us the rest of the cast, from getting this huge opportunity to be on the cover. And so finally Emma went to Sarah Scheller's trailer and she knocked on the door and she was just like,

what's going on here. Sarah explained the fact that that was completely not true and told her what actually happened, and Emma apologized and she was like, hey, I got this misinformation. I was told that you were like this huge problem, when in fact it was a man and you can guess which man that went and sort of led her to believe these things and then in turn go around and spread even more rumors. And so Emma went to Sarah and like I said, I'm so sorry

I actively helped spread this rumor about you. Um So, I think that level of toxicity is so disappointing, and I think there's a lot of trauma beyond just the women that have come forward and with the stories that they've told. I don't know how to do. I don't know what to think about it besides to meditate it on it quite a bit and think about it and how it re contextualizes the show. I think, if nothing else,

it makes me respect and love these women more. And you know, I dedicated the book to the women of Buffy, both on camera, behind the scenes, but also just like in recognizing that there's a strength both in the characters themselves, but in the actresses and and the stunt people, and a lack of appreciation and it's disheartening for many reasons. And um, I mean I say fun him like I really, it's just it's a tough thing and it's tough to that.

I think these actresses suffer. And Chrisma has said this on the record publicly, not outside of my book, you know that she thinks her career has suffered as a result. And so to think about and I would agree, it's like Christmas Carpet is meant to be a very very famous person, and so thinking about just the insidious nature of what he allegedly did all these many years ago, but the impact that it has. Yeah, And I last thing, I'll say, sorry real quick, but I just was talking

to Sarah. So, Sarah Scheller just finished reading the book a couple of nights ago, and she sent me like a long message about a lot of things, but the one thing that she said that I took away from it was like, it's really hard for me to read this and because I have to it's a very traumatic experience as a whole things that I'm sure she witnessed, things I'm sure she experienced, and also being the first person on the call sheet, you know, being the person

that they were all the I remember at nine, there were all these rumors about how big of a bit Sarah Michelle Geller was, how how she would make things hell for that this was I remember this so vividly, and what I wanted to do with this book more than anything, and I hope what I hope I succeeded with was like put some respect on the women of Buffy and their names, and recognizing the ways in which that, like even one woman saying another woman was a bit,

was because there were other people at play, like telling them orchestrating that puppeteering. It's so gross. I don't think it's unique to Buffy, but but it is. What I've had to reckon with is like, it's so sad for me to think about the pain that went into making this thing that I love so much, and how I can watch it and still like I love it so much and know that that was not the experience for the people who made it what it is and that is really hard to reckon with and there is no

answer to that. And I think we just have to stay critical of the things we love and support the people who made them what they are. And that's why your book is so important, because we should be looking at things like this with a critical lens and be

talking about the ugly parts of them. And hearing that you've dedicated it to the women of Buffy is just so beautiful, and I think that kind of work is so I think that just like thinking about things like Buffy or things like it, is that like our role in consuming these is not like, you know, cancel it. We're not gonna watch Buffy anymore. We're gonnad Harry Potter anymore. It's about that when we consume it, just as you said, Rose, like we are making sure that history sticks to it.

It never let the context disappear, because to erase it would be not just a disservice to a content, but a disservice to the abuse that happen. Yes, And I think like also one of the big things with writing this book is like I'm obviously in this book because I love the show, but there are so many issues. I mean, there's the way the show handles I don't

even know if that's the right sexual assault. And then also a huge part of this book is talking about race and ethnicity, both on camera and behind the scenes of Buffy, the fact that Buffy does not have a single writer of color, And one of my pursuits, in addition to speaking to all the women of Buffy, was having conversations with as many of the POC casts of

the show, and I'm so grateful. For instance, I was able to track down Bianca Lawson, the famous sister in law of excuse me this ye sister in law of Beyonce Um who plays Kendra, the vampire slayer on the show, and kind of get into like, what's the deal with the fact that you were only on two episodes but you're so beloved? Why were you killed off? Like? Is there more to that story? And there is more to

that story? And so I think one of the fun things about getting this opportunity was being able to talk to the people who were ignored or sort of cast aside or killed off on the show and be like, did you ever have thoughts on that at the time? Like what you know? And and I keep you know in my research, it's like Kendrick is like one of the most such a beloved character, and it's like barely on the show and it's iconic, and it's iconic and there's a reason why a character like that stays burned

in your brain. And so and also just like I spoke to Sharon Ferguson, she plays the first Slayer who only appears in three episodes, and she talked to me about like the complexities of like not being given a voice on the show her her character is literally a white actress. Tara, the character of Tara speaks for her. And I'm like, did you have a problem with that? And she was like no, She's like, looking back on

it now, I don't love that. But I also got to be on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that complexity is like getting that is to me just as important as a conversation with Sarah Michelle Geller about the impact that she had on you know women, There's there's just so much to this show, the gender, sexuality, the race, ethnicity. You know. Well, I'm so excited to read your book. Um, we thought it might be fun before we let you go to imagine if we were casting Buffy in one

who we would cast in it? Yeah, I feel like, you know, it's a natural segue from the conversation of an iconic cast and like what diversity looks like and cast and all that's different, all the different stuff. Obviously it's almost a little sacrilege. You're like, how are you going to read? Get it all? And I think also we can say, you know, the O G cast will like have candies. But we're doing this is we're doing this is a hard reboot, so it's not like our

casting agents. Yes we are in this, Okay, this is our job. So do you have any first thoughts? I do. And it's funny because so you guys told me this right before we started recording, and I was like trying to stay engage. Will also like make you sure that I had an answered. Okay, So this is where I landed.

I'm landing for Buffy because I think who they are as like a pop culture persona is as important as like their acting truth, and I feel like it needs someone with like gravitas, who like the people are going to come for and like want to see what they do with the role. So I'm putting Zendia as Buffy. Okay, I just feel like it has all the ingredients necessary.

And I also like I'm imagining like Zendia kN has the like the range you know you were talking earlier about, Like this role just requires like so much dexterity, and I feel like Zendia has that, and I feel like important to me, It's like she would serve the looks and you see the kind of pizzazzi commerciality of it in like her in Spider Man and like her as like almost like a I want I don't want to say a cartoon because she's acting so well, but like

it's an archetype. She fits into an archetype as well as giving something with a lot of nuance. Totally okay, I love okay, So okay a Willow. Willow is so tough because I feel like that is as big of a role as Buffy and just as many acting chops, if not more. Willow more of a serious character or she like comedic, She's both, everyone's both. So the thing about Buffy, like, is it like a Megan Fox time, is it like Aubrey Plaza? I do like an Aubrey Plaza.

I would like an out actress to occupy the role. I thought they were both by Aubrey, and I'm saying, so those are good selections. Yeah, um, I definitely it's maybe a little old. Yeah yeah, let's think of people's about people who could convincingly play teenagers. What about Beanie Feldstine as well? Yes, so period Xander. I think also in this reboot, Xander needs to be gay. I completely hers a Xander for the real It's hard because it's like I go to older all the time because what

about shoot, oh I love, I love. I'm already like sold on this reboot because like so anti reboot. But now I'm like, as we're casting and I'm like, okay, and then Giles Giles can be maybe like that's can have some fun like in terms of like we can recruit someone with a little I like to see. I want to see someone who's like not like you know who's coming to mind for me in that weird way. He's a Marvel guy, the hawk Eye. He plays hawk Eye. Oh,

Jeremy Renner, Jeremy, I don't know about that. I mean, okay, sure, yeah, what about like um, I would love to see like um like Alexandra Billings. Okay, I'm here for that. I love Okay, okay, and then who and then okay, let's figure out icon. It's so good, right and never have I ever so funny like she she she serves, And let's figure out a cameo role for someone from the original cast, Sarah Michelle Gellar is she's going to be the mom We're not We're not gonna We're not going

to do her dirty. Maybe she should die first in the first episode. Oh if that would be fun. It's like she's playing a mom in an upcoming Amazon show and I'm just like hearing name mom. No, just just it's like nothing wrong with playing a mom, notsoever. And it's like, not, I'm not trying to be Maybe she's like the school principle. Love that and she's evil and she dies in the first episode. Yes, I'm down. Okay, Okay, I'm down. Okay, So our Buffy rebook do we have

a romantic interest? Oh? Angel? I think, um, who can who's Angel? Who's Who's like the heart throb right now? Like it needs to be someone that's like funnier than like Timote or like, yeah, it's like and also I need someone with a little bit more It's like one of the things that appeals about Angel is sort of like the brutishness of him, and it's like someone like a tim He's too like life. Um, it's hard because the person's coming to mind this is way too obvious,

is like a Jacob Lordy type. But I don't I don't really want I'm not here, but so I'm kind of Also, what if it was a woman mauff Is in the comic book? I love that, Okay, so let's have a like a brooding what about like Jamie Clayton, who's gonna Who's going to be the new hell Raiser? Oh I, oh yeah, I heard about that. I think she could do brooding. I'm very here for that. Sorry. We going back though to Giles Lee Pace as Giles. I would like to see it. I could see that

happening as well. But we also Cordelia. I'm thinking I really would like to see someone who I haven't seen, like play that type before that this is so important, Okay, but yes, and but also I think the girl who plays the main girl on Gossip Girl would be a great Cordelia really yeah yeah, yeah, But also I feel like an M. J. Rodriguez as a Cordelia. I think it would be really fun because we haven't seen her get to occupy like that, kind of like Harry Enough.

Also the hard Enough as Buffy. Yeah, Harry's for Cordelia makes so much sense because Hart is really good at unhinged like absurdism, kind of like she loves that. But so I would do like a table read where it's just Hardy in every role, And I think we could make that happen. Thank you, Chosen Ones for coming along this vampiric journey with us. Next week we'll be back with an episode about Fifty Shades of Gray um, an intellectual property of stolen from another vampire franchise, Twilight. Love

that um. So, if you've never seen any of the Fifty Shades movies and you are curious, please check them out so you can watch along with us. Also, you know, tweet us her takes about this week's episode. Who's your favorite Buffy character? Are you you know a slayer of vampire Werewolf? How do you identify? Do you think Sarah Michelle Geller should have an oscar? Please let us know. You can also call to confess and give us inspiration

for an upcoming episode. With that thing that you love so much on pop culture that you have to share it with everyone you love. Call to confess at three to three pennants. That's three to three seven three six two six two three. I'm your co host, Rose damn You. You You can find me on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok

at Rose damn You, and I'm Francrato. You can find me at friends, squich go anywhere you want subscribe to like a virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts, and please leave us a rating on Spotify or review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps us out. Un lets us know that you love us, um and it tis the season to show your love the damn season like a Virginism. I heart radio production. Our producer is phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane Chitch and Nikki

Tour Until next week. See you later, Virgins. Hey, I just want to encourage anyone else there that hasn't seen the Show's important that you're gonna get people telling you to start season two as like your starter season. I say, start from the outset. I think Buffy is good from the jump. I think it gets better in season two, but I think there's a lot to take away from

season one. But I really encourage, Like, if you're through season one and you're not quite vibing, I say, you've got to push into season two before you decide to call it quick. You have to give it the old Sunnydale hide try. It's a very good prescription doctor. Thank you, thank you Evan, Oh my god, thank you both, Bi, everybody