Shoshanna Rising

It was just the tenth anniversary of the show's premiere, and I realized I hadn't watched Girls in years, and I did. Bully Fran also into rewatching. Well, here's here's what here's what actually happened, because I mean, obviously Hunter Harris, you know the impact. And so when she rewatches something, now the culture is rewatching something, and when we're seeing her tweet about Marnie's music video and like, I want to watch Marty's music and when the culture is rewatching things,

that's when I want to rewatch. But I will say, when I started to see the Girls tweets from you, I was like, as your friend, I don't support this. It's literally gotten in the way of me consuming any other kind of culture like the Flight Attendants season two premiered, which I was so excited for and I haven't watched it yet because I've just been rewatching Girls. We need to watch that together. Actually we should watch it tomorrow.

We do. Um. Basically, I judged was very hard and I said I don't support this, and within twenty four hours I was like, actually I'm gonna We were we were we were texting about it and you were and I was saying, Fran, we should do an episode on Girls, and I said no, And then the next text and then the next things I got from you was I wish I was this cool when I was twenty three. Well it was also like I think the biggest motivator for me was Adam Givers sex scenes. But anyways, we'll

get into it. Well, yes, because today we're talking about Girls, the HBO series created by Lena Them and we're going to you know, look at it throughout lens ten years and so much has changed. Because this is like a virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm ros Damo and I'm Fran Grato. Um, we have like slightly less topical stuff to talk about today because we are recording this all at once, and the reason we're doing that is because tomorrow is Fran's birthday. It

is tomorrow upon this record, not tomorrow when this podcast. Yes, so by the time you all listen to it, she will be forty five sited, yes, years young. Unfortunately for you, we probably have not consumed a lot of the pop culture you would expect us to be talking about, as in we we have not watched the Drag Race finale. Yeah, I mean I have. I have watched half of it, but I don't know who wins yet. And I know who wins, but I haven't watched it yet. And you

haven't spoiled it for me, which doesn't mean I have not. Yeah, I don't know how the internet hasn't spoiled it for you. Um well, I've been staying. We're at a party full of queer people. Last night. No one like shouted out yeah so last yeah, okay, so last night was gorgeous, gorgeous, some a little. It was like a pre birthday party, but a monthly like kind of queer party. I'm trying to do here in Los Angeles, raging success. Everyone had

so much fun. The girls that did the drag Laurel Charleston and Mother Teresa were like, unreal, Teresa did this version of Um Britney spears hit Me, Bade Me one More Time that like starts out like slow acapella, and you're like, oh, someone's going to do like an acapella Britney. That's like interesting as like a drag piece. And then this song gets like progressively like slower and like kind of like moody warped like dark um and everyone was

losing their goddamn minds. But yeah, shockingly, did not get drag Race spoiled for me last night. Wow, I'm so happy that you haven't. And let me tell you, I don't really care someone spoiler. I don't think I would care, Like it's there was nothing. So I've watched the first half and all of the performances are kind of like I mean, first of all, I hate the fact that

they're going back to original song. So if you don't know, they are like allah season six, seven and eight, the girls are doing like drag Race written songs out there like I did I did hear? I did hear my friend who spoiled the ending for me? Um who was talking me through a sort of emotional unraveling I was happening last night. Um did walk me through how the finale unfold and it sounds very boring. I don't think

the return to this format was really the move. I think it was nice to try and shake it up, but I just hate the song. Well. I also think this is an interesting take. Anythink fran Uni should cover your ears for this? Okay? Okay, I think that the finale was engineered in a way to set up the person who won to win. And that's all I'll say about that. Okay, you can. You can uncover your ears. Now. Is there anything else happening in the world we should talk about? I mean, like, um, what do we What

did you watch this week? Just girls? That's it. That's what I did. Read a book in one day last weekend. Um. I read this book that I'm pretty sure is One Direction fan fiction. How did that happen? Um? It's because I saw it on book Talk and I know my sisters who are like current Harry Style stands and used to be one direction ars. You used to read Harry Styles fan fiction. And there's this book called If This Comes Out, and it's about two boy band members who

fall in love. That sounds kind of great. And I read it in a day because no, it's not good. I rated it three stars on good Reads. It was definitely very easy to get through. It was a diverting way to spend an afternoon. Um, but no, it's not good. You know what else is not great? The pilot of First Lady. Have you? Oh no, I haven't watched it because I've heard it's bad, babe. I So here's the thing. I am going to watch the rest of the show because from like all the previews, it looks like it's

going to get better and juicier, like good melodrama. And I do actually think that the portraits of these three women are stunning because the actresses doing it are stunning. Viola Davis's impression of Michelle Obama is getting a little flak right now because, um, she's kind of overdoing a very specific lip. Person. Have you seen the memes about this? I saw the me I saw the meme that she liked of like the fast food workers sitting on side after their shift, and it was like Vio Davis's lips

between takes, and she liked it on Twitter. She liked it, I have to like, Okay, so an even though you can't see it, so I have to say that she's getting a lot of flak I personal from watching the show. I actually still think that the Obama portrayal is stunning. I think that she looks and sounds and feels exactly like Michelle Obama. But the script is just not good, and I feel like Viola Davis is having a hard time doing what she needs to do because the script

is so bad. And then on top of that, I do think the lip person thing is like a little and ol even though Michelle Obama does do that. We are laughing at a tweet. We'll post it on the Burner. I gotta wait. We need to tell the Virgins about our burner. So we have a we have a burner Instagram that you should follow it. No, no, not should. You must listen to this. You will follow it and share things from it because it's at like a virgin

for that's at like a virgin for on Instagram. Yes, and it is Fran myself and our producer Phoebe just ship posting our little asses off. Yeah, and we'll do memes of the week. The account only follows for people, Fran myself, Phoebe, and Adida Mentell. And so right now I'm looking at the home page and it has like the people's stories at top, and it's just Fran Rose and Indiana Love the Idina makes stories. That's so nice. Um, well she's talking about Earth Day, yeah, oh lovely love

that from you know, climate change frozen. So anyways, just to tell you the rest about this, Michelle Peiffer plays Betty Ford, which like someone I never paid attention to, someone I don't know as like a American figure. That's Betty. Betty Ford is the one with the clinic, you know. Oh yeah, she's the one with the clinic. Is it for eating disorders or drugs? I don't know. I actually don't know. I haven't done even a cursory google on Betty for it. Um, but because I will either way,

I hope they get the help they need. I will say, I'd be curious to know what the virgins think. But the pilot is not good. Literally, nothing happens. The script is so boring. There's no like engine or real steaks established in these three women's lives, and it's like what like it was just such a bad beginning to what a show that has so much potential but I don't know. I've hoped for the previous. So when you watch it, I would love to hear your opinions, and as well,

I think we should try and watch it. Oh, I did you know what? We talked about this a few weeks ago, So I do want to give an update. I finished Our Flag Means Death what? Yeah? It and it did get better and so much gayer, Like everything is gay on it, everyone is gay. I'm probably not going to watch it. So what was like a highlight from the end? Um So the show ends with Steed the main guy, so he and black Beard they get captured essentially, and they declare their love for each other

and kiss. Also the non binary pirate there's a non binary non binary pirate and everyone uses they then pronouns for them. Okay, um pis written. Yeah, I'm so glad that we have a slow news week because this means I can finally talk about the Omar Apollo album that I Oh, you have really been wanting to talk about this? Okay, here's the thing. I have not been wanting to talk

about it. But um, but like so many fagots are posting about the new Omar album on social or they were rather because it was kind of a very temporal moment um not seeing a word about it, just just so you know, I think that's the difference between our feeds. Unfortunately, Um so omar Apollo, which I had kept calling him omar Apo and that's not correct at all. Um is like this like kind of gay acoustic e vibe, like

sad boy music person. And I listened to his new album Ivory, and um, you know, it was it was like I had it on repeat for like a day or two, but it's like it was very slow vibes and like very like I think. After I listened to it a few more times, I was like, this sounds so much like Frank Ocean. Were you ever a Frank Ocean fan? Okay, so I'm a diehard Frank Ocean fan, like since like college pre Channel Orange, have seen him a concert many times back in the Tumbler days, literally

like the nostalgia ultra like mix tave days. So I was like disoriented by how alarming lye similar. Some of the songs were, like there's a song that he does with Calucus that like is so similar to Nikes I had to check my like phone to see that I hadn't accidentally switched to like a Frank Ocean remix of something. I wonder if it will be the kind of thing where he like retroactively has to like pay royalties like Olivia Drigo had to do with Taylor Swift. Dave. Guess

what I found out. I've been doing some reporting for the podcast when I was thank God, let me tell you original reporting. So when I was driving late at night, I'm back from a Coachella party. I was driving home like two friends of friends that are from Mexico and they work in the music industry, and one of them were friends with Omar Apollo, and so we're talking about this new album and this, and I was saying, like, you know, it feels really Frank oceany to me, like

or not all of it? And I should say, like half of it is very like acoustic eat kind of like John Mayer ish like feel good vibes, and then and then some of it gets a little like you know, Latin ra music, and then the rest sounds like Frank Ocean. And I was like, well, it sounds a lot like Frank Ocean, and the guy looks at me and he goes, you know they used to date, right, oh twist say

dated for three years and they broke up. And this album Ivory is all about Frank, both in both in terms of the content and the musical style that he stole from him. And so I don't I don't have like a ton of intel on like the inner workings of their relationship, but I do know that there's drama in the fact that this album sounds like Frank a little bit, because can you imagine if you broke up with your ex and your ex release an album that sounded like your art, Like I would go whack, but

I would go deserve I would. But I also feel like that that also feels alarmingly common in celebrity culture, Like I think when celebrities date, they influence each other's art. So I don't know, like you know, what they're actual kind of vibe is. But I was like, oh my god, they dated, Like that's so juicy. Can you imagine dating Frank Ocean and be horrible? Like he must be the most emotionally avoidable. I just wouldn't want to date anyone who I knew would make art about our breakup. Oh,

are you kidding me? I feel like I exclusively date people that make art about it. Break now, that is the difference between you and I. It is only and this is not an exaggeration. It is only a man ter of time before an off Broadway play debuts about me. It's gonna be by me. It's gonna be called they Them No, They Them scares No. Unfortunately, it's gonna be written by one of my they them x is that works in theater. So you all can't see us right now.

But Frand and I just finished dancing and hugging each other while um Dancing on My Own by Robin played. Because as we said today, we are talking about Girls, the HBO series created and often written and directed by Ms. Lena Dunham and her creative partner Jenny Cohner Yes Um and executive produced by Judd Apatow, Famous Girls. I think we should set the stage of the culture in which it premiered into. So it came out in two thousand twelve, and it's very obviously in a post Sex in the

City legacy. It is filling that hole on HBO, which I think is it is directly referenced because in the first episode Showshana, the character played by sajammm It has a sex in the City poster in her bedroom, so like it was very aware of the fact that it was a show about four women living in New York City. Definitely on HBO, and I think even Showshana asks Jessa in the first episode like who which which one of the girls are you? And Jesse's like, I've never seen

that that movie that the one. Okay. One of the things that this show does amazingly upon my rewatch is encapsulate people that you know so exactly. And when Zoja said, when Zaja sorry says um, when she asked that question, she kind of does the thing that she does where she asked you a question and then immediately answers it herself. And she and then she goes, she goes, you know, I'm like Samantha, but also like sometimes like I'm like

a carry. And she basically says that she's like three of them, you know, she says, she says, like, no, I think I'm a carry, but you know, like sometimes Samantha comes out and like she could not be more

of a Charlotte. But the exactly I know, And that's the other thing is that people that say I'm Carrie but also Samantha but also like Miranda don't know who they carry's son, Samantha Rising, you know, but it's so like like Lena Dunham's or rather whoever wrote that likely like the ability to like um just encapsulate like someone who so totally does not know themselves at all, Like just in one line, you're like know everything about them And I think that like I don't know, well that's

what and you know, and like we were texting about this as you were watching it is I think the post the post industrial girls complex, which is which is a real thing, like there was literally a girl's think piece economy that started in the first season was paying its light belt with that. Yes, absolutely, But the thing that you forget and the thing that Fran and I were texting about, is just how well the show is written. The writing is so the writing in the comedy and

the character work is so specific. Each the show has a very defined voice, and then within that, each of the characters has a very defined voice, and nothing they say like I'm sure there was you know, like maybe some improv and some people like brought their own selves to their characters, but the things that they say, the jokes that they make, even the little asides and like one liners are so specific and so funny and inform who these people are. Like, it is a show that

I think does really well showing and not telling. Yeah, I mean even also like um, not just with the main characters, like with characters that have two lines, you know, like I'm thinking about them. I think it's the Bush Wake Warehouse episode where they meet one of the best episodes. It's I I haven't rewatched yet, but I remember in the episode there's a girl named Taco and she says, no, my name is Taco. And she's like, that's what I said, Taco.

And she's like, no, you're saying it talk like Taco. She said no, she says, um, it's it's spelled with a K. By the way, I can just tell when people think it's at the City and that that like things like that, that single line, it's like I know that person, I've met that person. I know exactly what

that person is like. And I think that um, Lena Dunham's like ability to capture those archetypes much like how Sex and the City did, and it's era much how like Broad City does did in its era, like they really and also I think Insecure, like Insecure, like they're kind of I think those four shows, I would say, especially Sex in the City, Girls and Insecure because they're all on HBO, And then like especially Broad City, Insecure in Girls because they're all like post Sex in the

City and in New York Like they're all in their own ways reacting to the things that Sex and the City lacked in different ways. Well, but I think that when you think about the triot of Broad City, Sex in the City, and Girls, in between those two, you kind of have a spectrum of I was gonna say realism, but it's more of a spectrum of like how they authenticated like New York girlhood, you know what I mean.

And on the Broad City and you have absurdism that's still that relies on how broke they are and how fucked up and chaotic they are in order to create that relatability, and Girls is like hyper realism mumble core. And then you have Sex and City on the other end that's like relies more in like archetype and kind of more sitcom. But they're all they all do like

play with some level of fantasy. Obviously, like in Sex and the City, the fantasy is like the wealth um and in Girls, I think the fantasy almost as like the honesty and like the way that people talk to each other, and like the like the dysfunctionality of the relationships is so heightened, like I don't think people I think some people are that honest with their friends, but I don't think most people are. And then in Broad City,

like the fantasy isn't like in the absurdness. In the Absurdism, I almost feel like Girls doesn't necessarily have as much a fantasy as it had, as it took components of like Sex in the City and was like, oh, this is how we actually are able to pay for our lives, wherein Sex in the City it's like never acknowledge that they're all independently wealthy, where with with Girls, it's like the first scene is like my parents were footing my bill,

you know what I mean? And I think that and here's the thing which is so like it's just such good writing like that that is I think as someone who I mean, it does not like I have not ever like studied screenwriting, but obviously like we you know, we both work in media, like literally in Hollywood, so I know what a good pilot episode looks like. And

the pilot of Girls is incredible. And I also like read the pilot recently, like on paper, and it is like I'm not surprised by like how people might have responded to the script in the beginning, like it's it has a magnetic kind of presence that you've never read before. That's actually something I would be really interested in because I would love to see how much of what is on the screen was on the page. It's fascinating. I'll

send it to you. Um, But I um was going to say, I think that, um, we're going to get into the Lena donot of all, and like, I think that there are a lot of reasons as to why people you know, don't like her or don't like the shower whatever, But you have to I think that, especially in this day and age, despite the fact that there were no people out of coloring in like season one, and no queer people except for Elijah, who was one of the best TV characters, we do not give Lena enough.

I was gonna say, we do not give lean enough credit. She's given enough credit. Um, we I think that um to me, my response to the show and how much I loved upon Rewatch was um, Lena's interest in investigating whiteness and she is I felt like she was so adamant was it or was it just her interest in investigating herself but making fun of herself in that And I think understanding that that self is a very privileged self.

So she must in her head she's probably not thinking, like I'm writing about whiteness right now, you know, I don't think that's it. But she knows that the things the way this character is inhabited and the way this character is like set up in her life, and she's obviously a really deplorable character, and and never and Lena has never written the character. I mean, like, this is the most likable character ever, Like she always knows that

Hannah is horrible. She's definitely she's definitely investigating her own privilege. I think what she's not doing, and then what a show today look like is she is not juxtaposing her privilege with someone else's lack of Yeah, there's no other kind of there's nothing else to be counterpoint because the other three girls also have some kind of privilege, both on and and well, we do need to talk about

the fact that all four of the main characters. Well, first of all, they're all white, all sis that we know of UM and all our nepotism babies. Lena Dunham has a famous artist for a mother. Zaja Maamma is the daughter of the famous player right David Mammot, who is like super canceled and problematic UM. Alison Williams is the daughter of Brian Williams, the legendary UM like news Post and then UM Jemima Kirk's day it was in

a rock band. So they all are like extremely privileged. Yeah, and and it's funny, I mean the I think obviously the character has leaned on their real life selves in order to portray these characters, even though they're obviously characters. It's like they're written with the actresses in mind, and you think that's imputed in a lot of the script,

you know what I mean. It kind of reminds me of like what are shows that like UM, I mean, maybe not a Lana and Abby in Broad City, because they always talk about how they're very different from their characters. There are other shows where like the maybe even like Euphoria or something where the characters are like lifted from the actors that play them and leans on their actual

real life personalities. I don't know, because those are all I think it's I think it's different for something like Euphoria because it's being written by by a man for

a bunch of actors. I think the difference with what sets Girls apart and why I think Insecure is like why Insecure and Broad City are like almost better, better like parallels to it than even Sex in the City is because it's a it's a writer, creator star, like I think you know Sa Ray like obviously, so much of her is in her character because she is the one writing it, the same way that like Broad City, Abbey and Alana, like they created it as a web series,

so I'm sure those characters are really informed by them. In Girls, I think that really shows up in Hannah and Jessa because, um, Lena Dunham and Jemima Kirk are like childhood friends. Um, they like the the short the film that Lena Dunnam made that is what got her the Hollywood attention that led to Girls with Tiny Furniture with jemam m Kirk is also in I think probably Marnie and Showshanna are less informed by their actors than Hannah and Jessa, because like, how could you have be

that level of psychotic? I r L. But I mean that's not to say that Alison Williams does not kind of get typecasts in those kind of roles. I mean, just look at like get Out, which is her best work, her best I mean, here's the thing. She's so her acting is like so flat that it works in some places.

I don't know that it's flat. I think in Girls, she's like she and Shoshana, Marnie and Trashanna are levels of hysterical on different ends of the spectrum, and Marnie is like this this such a specific type of of white womanhood dialed up to like a twenty five. Yeah it is, And I okay, so real quickly, I haven't I didn't finish Insecure. Um it's like a little too I haven't watched the final season. Yeah, it's a little

too heterosexual for me to muscle through. But I know that, like the next time I get like the flu, I'll finish it, you know what I mean, because it is it's the kind of show you need. Yeah, but um, I was gonna say I think here's what I'm trying to say actually about the character to actress thing um, because Lena was already friends with these other three girls.

She There's a lot that happened I feel like before the production and started and off camera in order to like cultivate these characters and see I think it felt like a group project to have the four of these women feel so lived in, you know what I mean, and the and the best, And I think Euphorias that too, where the creator really is friends with a lot of the stars of that show and and the show benefits from that the relationship earned between the director slash showrunner

and the stars. And I guess, and I guess Euphoria is the latest in this legacy of HBO shows. But now they're teenagers like doing drugs, and like I mean, Euphorian girls obviously don't have anything to do with that

with each other. I was just trying to, like, you know, talking about like that there is there is like a cultural legacy, like it is like the HBO Sunday Night show, Like there's I do think something about all of these shows like links them together, even if it's just like the specific context of like where they are like where they are given to people. Um, it's just interesting to see like the way the culture has progressed and almost like the lives that we want to see depicted on

screen have gotten younger. Because it started with Sex and the City these women who were in their thirties. Then it was girls who are like immediately post collegiate, and now it's literal teenagers. We're only watching teen soaps? Were all they watching like that? I mean, I guess it's like what other teen soaps are out right now? Like, yeah, what is it about our culture that like, is it the escapism? Is it like the fact that gen z rules culture? But but but then I do think that

these teen shows are largely being watched by millennials. Yeah, well I mentioned this briefly when we were recapping when when we did our weekly recap event just like that. But like but like, um, you know, culturally we like to digest things above our age, right, you know, like we're always like aspirational. So when we were teens, we were watching Sex in the City, you know, um, or when you're like in um, when we were in middle school watching shows about being in high school, you know

what I mean? And so I feel like we always watch up but like as we reach our like thirties and forties, we're less interested in watching like our own experiences, and so we're looking for the escapism of a teen world that feels relatable because we've lived through it, but

still like escapist, you know what I mean. Yeah, And I guess like when you think about the fact that gen Z is like the dominant you know, cultural class right now, and like I guess you know, we were talking last week about representation and like wanting to see yourself on screen like that they they do, and so like they are making this decree that like we will only watch teen shows which we'd like see ourselves are picted.

I um, I think that rewatching Girls right now is also a very specific experience because I mean, one, um, watching them all get along and like the first like season is like harrowing. Like this when I watched like dancing in my own like dance thing, which is like kind of an iconic scene from the show, but you watch it watching it retroactively is so harrowing because of how they end up. Right. Well, I just watched So I'm on season three now, and I watched the episode

where they go to the Hampton. That is the it is. It's like kind of in a way, it's peak girls. Um that and like Marnie's wedding. Um, it's really the episodes where all four of them were together, because you're reminded that the the foundations of their friendship are so flimsy and rooted in mania, rooted in mania. They all hate each other. They hate each other secretly and then eventually overtly. Yeah, and um, that is very like, that's

very real. Well, you know, one of the fantasy aspects of Sex in the City was always like how are they such good friends? Like? How do these people like

each other when they're so different? And I think Girls Like is really good at showing like sometimes your friends are people that you have nothing in common with than don't even really like and just feel like you have to keep hanging out with them, or because all you're doing is encouraging and enabling each other's horrible behavior, and because all four of these women are narcissists, sometimes to the point of sociopathy, because they have someone to just

enable that all the time, Like, of course they're going to stick together even though they hate each other. You know what I mean, one of the most I think one of the hardest parts to watch, not not because it brought up anything for me, but like literally hardest to watch is the end of season two when Hannah

is like when her O C. D comes back. One of the I think most poignant scenes was when Marnie has been thinking she's dating this artist and Hannah has just gotten her book deal but like can't write, and Marnie finds out that this guy is not her boyfriend, and she calls Hannah, and Hannah is like a home dealing with the fact that she can't write, and they're both on the phone like wanting to reach out and ask their friend for help and like not being able to do it, and so lie to each other and

saying that their lives are fine, and that to me is like it's so some of these things are so hard to watch because of how real they were to the ways we are with our friends, and like, I'm I feel very lucky that the friends of my life are only people who I could actually call and be like, I mean, as I have with you at least twice this week, call and be like I'm going through it, Like I need to talk about it. I need your

support right now. And I guess these women, just like I, didn't have the language to do that with each other until it exploded out of them in ways that we're

not productive. But one of the things I love about that Hampton's episode that I watched last night is that they have this whole blow up and then at the end they're like all sitting and waiting for the jitney together and then they start like doing the dance that they all learned, and it's like again, It's like again, it's like showing rather than telling that like this is just another like the thing that has cemented their friendship, but that they're going to hold on to forever, and

you know, like twenty years from now, they're gonna be like, oh my god. Like the thing they're going to remember about that trip is not necessarily like the nasty things they said to each other. It's like, remember that dance we learned but we all know and it's so I don't know. It's like it's so sweet and perfect but also like fucked up. I have two remarks. First of all,

that episode is Zaha's best work period. Yes, period. Second of all, have you ever had a trip with a friend or friends that turned that took a turn that all got a little nasty. Yes, I've had several because

I I feel like I have been on it. I had a trip to Province Town once where I got in like the one and only fight with one of my best friends, and I just remember like we said mortifying things to each other, like like you know, black out, drunk and um, like one night after like leaving a gay bar, and the next morning it was just like what like just like this sobering like just like and just like shamefully walking to the cop, be shopping, apologizing

to each other, but like, you know, it was similar to that, like at the end of the day, you just like shake it off and you're like, if we're friends, none of that matters. Obviously, the end of Girls is different because they all figured out that they're not supposed to be friends, kind of like they're not good for each other, which I think is actually such an honest and great way to end the show and it's like so true to life. Yeah, I've had I've had um

similar experience as mine. Mine were maybe like a bit more dramatic, Like there was a trip I had on fire Island in which a good friend of mine had like a friend of mine at the time, had like a drug fueled manic episode and like almost like jumped

off the boardwalk. Um. So it's like different, like slightly different. Um, but yeah, we've all had those moments like when you're when you it's it's always interesting when you take a relationship out of its normal context and like heighten the stakes. Like I think whenever you go on a trip with someone, it's just like it's just it's just like we house. Well, there's everything. In the Hampton's episode, the first thing they do when they get to the house is fight over

which room they're gonna have. This real house was to a t. But that's the thing. You take a bunch of women, especially wealthy women, and you put them in a Petrie dish that is a you know, vacation rental, and all of a sudden it goes, you know, viral. So I will say the main motivator for me doing the Girls Watch outside of you doing a girl's Watch was to see Adam Driver in his prime, because Adam Driver is top three celebrity crushes for me. I don't

know if you know that. I didn't know that it really when I tell you that this like weird shovel faced man with like arms the size of like semi trucks has like hit the weirdest point of like all of kind of like I don't know my pleasure centers. I really because I watched the show in college, and because I also I don't know when you watch this, but like I watched the show before I moved to New York. I watched the show before I experienced any of the adulty things that they experienced in the show.

And I also feel like I watched this show around the time I was trying to figure out like what my what I was, what I liked during sex, like what my sexual what my sexuality and my sexuality mean, what I like in bed, which takes a long time to cultivate was And so to see Adam Driver and Lena have what is an extremely sexually specific dynamic retroactively, I was like, that is how I like to funk, now,

you know what I mean? And I don't think it's because of Adam Driver, but I didn't realize it upon first watch that like I love like, you know, weird rough fox and random role play and like giggling, and when guys treat me like ship, it's like kind of hot sometimes, you know what I mean. And I think that they're dynamic is so good and so believable. And and Lena is like, you know, as someone who discovered Adam Driver basically like was so smart to cast someone

that you wouldn't expect in that role. Um, but I have you ever had like a a side piece or a funk buddy that was just weird that you never told anyone about? Uh many were you? Like you you you have sex with them regularly, and none of your

friends have ever met that. But I think I think what I responded to, like even more so with their dynamic is like the person who, like you, bully your way into their lives, like you know, and that's what as their relationship like falls apart and gets back together again, I you know, like the hook up who becomes a

relationship through kind of sheer force of will. Like there's one point in which Adam said, like Adam says to someone like she just wouldn't stop coming around, And eventually I realized, like I wanted to have her there, and like I would rather be with her than be alone um, but also relatable. I've got so many of my relationships have been exactly that thing. Yeah, And I think that there's also something to be said about how murky it is through a lot of these seasons because they don't

label what they're going through. And I find that, again very relatable. And yet they kind of play house, you know, they call together, and yet they refused to label a lot I don't I don't remember while they say their partners.

I am one of those sick people who do think that, like Adam and Hannah belong together and then and then as we know, but I think that that is kind of paid service to and the fact that so you know, Jesse and Adam get together, Hannah feels in the and I think the final season, Hannah feels incredibly betrayed by it and then finds out she's pregnant, and she and Adam have one episode where they get back together and like see what their lives could be like if they

were end game, and ultimately decide like they're not meant for each other, which is I think that they're more meant for each other than she's meant for any of her other three friends. You know what, I mean, like, I think that there's a chemistry that works between her

and Adam Driver, but you it's kind of whack. How from episode one of when You Meet Adam Driver to the end of the show where Adam is essentially deciding or rather realizing, that he deserves better than Hannah, you know what I mean, Like Hannah is so verruled, le

selfish and does he does deserve better than Hannah. But also, like you know, in the end of season two, he starts dating that girl who's played by Sharia Holby, and he like, at first they have this kind of like perfect relationship that he's like, oh my god, this is what a good relationship is supposed to be. Like even during sex, she like tells him exactly what she wants and he's like so mystified by that, and he's like and she's like she literally says like, why wouldn't I

tell you what I want? Because he's so used to Hannah not saying what she actually thinks. He's the laziest bottom ever. She's literally like does nothing, Yeah, And he can't wrap his head around that, and then he like falls off the wagon and like treats Sherry Appleby's character like dogshit because that's what he thinks is like what a relationship is, which is kind of amazing, Like that is that is relationship commentary that needs to have you know what I mean? Like I felt I feel so

reflected in moments like that. But it is so but like Adam does become more and more adult as the show goes on, and it's so like all of the characters have arcs and like pretty big transformation, but Adam Adams is my favorite, like he's my favorite character. Who which girl are you? Um? Oh god, I hate that question. I mean, I'm I'm Saja. You think you're I actually think that's true, yeah, because I think I would like to think I no, no, no, no, no no no, I'm

Alison Williams. I'm Alison Blames. Do you think? No, I'm not a Martie Rose. I am the girl that brings everyone on vacation. And I say, we are having fun now because this is when we schedule are I was like, if everybody, we have this at seven o'clock and this at nine o'clock and y'all better be ready because you

know what I mean? Okay, So you think you think you're a Martie I do not think I know, And I am ashamed by that realization because I am someone who is constantly I am so anal retentive, and I really don't think I am, you know what I mean, Like I think I'm so chill, I think I'm so cool. I'm like I think i'm really you know, when I'm right all the time, Like I always think I'm right, and a lot of times I'm actually trying too hard or I'm making things worse because of that. But you also,

I don't know. I think like so much of Marnie's journey in the show is like her realizing that she has no idea what she wants. And you're very You're a very driven person. Yeah. That that's something I don't have in common with Marnie, like she and that's why that's why I think you're more of a Shoshana. Yeah Shoshanna, you know, like packing everything up and moving to Japan, like I've done that, not to Japan, but like moved to like another place, like I've done that multiple times.

Um So that is relatable. But I do think at the end of the day, I'm most like Marnie. Um and you are Jemima Kirk, I'm not Jessa. No, I'm Hannah. No no, no, no no no, but I mean you have Hannah qualities, but you're definitely Jim. Do you think, Jess, Yeah, you're You're a cool girl in and out of the live you can like you'll disappear for months and come back and be like, do you want to go to the mall? Like you know, like manic Pixie girl. I have never been told that in these don't fuck about

anybody's thoughts. Beliefs are emotions, but you understand them innately,

like this is your emotional radical idea. To me, you are emotionally intelligently understand everyone's psychosis, and yet you choose to ignore them if it's like totally like if you're like, this is absolutely something that doesn't deserve my energy right now, Like Jessa is the most grounded character out of the four of them somehow, in some ways, I think I think so because she's the only one out of the four of them that knows who she is, that knows

what she wants and almost never compromises that, where the other three are a little more issue Washi and I don't think really know themselves. But Jess is not ambitious, and I am very ambitious. But the thing about Jessa is like her mania and the way that manifests externally is a lot more you know, Um, it fluctuates a lot more. Well, I think I'm a ray. Um that's

so funny because like I'm kind of a ray. On the hand of it all, let's just talk about Lena Dunham in the cultural moment of when it came out, everyone hated her. Hated her because, I mean, the more the industry treated her as this like wounder kind, like the more accolades girls received, and like in the first season, it really did it wasn't. I mean, we should maybe look up the stats, but like it definitely like one a ton of awards. It received so much critical praise.

But then I think the sharp turn that it wasn't. It was almost more of like a parallel. The more that she was critically praised and like praised by the industry, the more the culture at large hate her, which is the case of a lot of like rising wonder kind

or whatever, and it's specifically women. Yeah, well that's what I was gonna say, is I mean, all the things that we can say about Lena Dunhaman why she's problematic have already been said, so um, Like, I feel like it's hard to contribute to the conversation in terms of like their privilege and how these characters manifested, but in terms of like what I feel like, I think that's something that's often missing from the conversation of how we

criticize Lena Dunham. And this show specifically was around a lexicon of white womanhood that um became a little bit of a meme around this time, because Girls as a show became a punchline about white women over and over again, right, white womanhood and Lena Dunham off screen as well as on screen, We're like modeling a version of of whiteness that is so insidious and gets away with a lot, you know what I mean, especially in how Lena was

acting as a celebrity during this time. And so the way this show became a punchline about white woman head, I think reached a point that was truly misogynistic. Like I think that like when I'm I honestly I'm thinking about like men and gay men specifically, and how there are a lot there were there are a lot of

jokes they're like white women, Am I right? And there is, But I think that we don't understand that when we like kind of use white women quote unquote, Like when when when men or like you know, people that benefit from that privilege, like use white woman as like a punch line over and over again. That is a kind of misogyny. And I do also feel like gay men that were criticizing this show at the time, we're using this kind of critique of white womanhood to shield themselves

from their own privilege as men. And I think that that attitude is literally given a characterization in the show in the form of Elijah, who's played by Andrew Ranals, who is hilarious but like is so toxic and and it's like an an engine behind a lot of the drama between the friends because remember he fox Marini in season two and drives away between MANI um he and like Hannah kicks him out of her apartment, and he is constantly being a horrible to the girls and like

excusing it with his queerness exactly, yes, using queerness as a shield. Queerness quote unquote as a shield. Um. And then there's all I think, obviously the layer on top of all of that is like that phobia, like do you I don't, do you remember? Oh my god, it was It was horrible, so hard because all of the conversation was like, there's so much nudity and girls, there's so much sex and girls, but like what wasn't being said was there shouldn't be because of what Lena Dunham

looks like. And there's also less nudity in girls than there isn't sex in the City and like all these other HBO shows that have nudity all the time, like I remember. So there's an episode in season two, guest starring Patrick Wilson where Hannah meets this man through her job at the coffee shop, and the episode is like a bottle episode where she spends this whirlwind weekend with him that basically is like an entire relationship over the

course of one weekend. And the conversation about it at the time was that this is so unrealistic, this is a dream sequence because he's too hot for her, he would never fuck her. As if fat women aren't having sex every day every corner of the world. It's it's very strange and like I guess for me now it's different now watching it like as some as like a fat woman, Whereas when I was like watching this when it was airing, I did not identify as a woman,

and so it's like a very different experience. But like I can't imagine what it was like for her at that time. And I'm sure she's talked about it. I'm sure she's written about it, but like to have a like every day think piece about your body, like oh my god, that's horrible. And I'm not saying it excuses anything that she's done or who she is, but like

it's still fucking crazy. I think a lot of the I think a lot of the reaction, in addition to fat phobia, had to do with the execution, because when you think about sex in the city or like HBO shows of that time, sex scenes still had like stunning like lighting in shadows, a lot more modesty, like mostly you only see tits and usually it's like covered up.

A lot of time there was a lot more kind of like coinness around how they would do nudity in some of the raunch r HBO shows where Hannah Horvath is in you know, bad lighting, full bush full nudity like and not not in like nice positions he shot in the most like unflattering way, but not like not like gratuitously unflattering, but just like very matter of fact, which watching today still felt radical, like are you watching?

Still felt radical to me. And there are shows that I think have done like I hate I hate this term, but like body positivity better, like I think Shrill is a much better explorer of like fatness and like being a fat woman such. Yes, And I also think the final season was really good too. I haven't finished yet,

There'll be another flu watch. Yes. Do you remember when um Lena was on the cover of Vogue and they released like some stunning any Leviowitz photos and Jezebel was like, we will offer ten thousand dollars to the person who shows us the unretouched photos of thing that Donna is d disgusting. And do you remember when Jezebel was like the cream of the crop, like creme to la creme, like best journalism, like nothing was more exciting than Jezebel,

and they had it out for her. Yes, And Jezebel was even kind of like a character on the show, like when Hannah in season two gets a job writing it blogging for like a click baity website. It's very obviously a Jezebel stand in. Yeah, and it's so I remember Lena like tweeting being like people paying ten grand for my nudes just subscribe to HBO, like it's all

unretouched girl, Like what the fun? Um? Yeah, I mean that that's I think emblematic of a lot of things that were going on at the time, but just Lena hate in general. Like I used to be a Lena hater. I mean, I still don't like a lot of things about Lena, but I think I can appreciate her our own in a way that I didn't in my like early New York years, because like I don't know if

I've toil do this. Um, you know, I used to date my first boyfriend in New York was this guy who like loved girls and loved Lena Dunham, and like I remember throughout our relationship really resenting that about them about him and feeling like he was basic because that was like his favorite show, you know, And I had kind of moved past that end my life, and um, when we broke up, it was like really horrible. It's like a really tough breakup for me. He was the

only time I've ever been broken up with. I'm always the breaker reppert Um and um, here's not you. That was really hard for me. Um, and so I just like really really hated him post breakup. It was like a torrential kind of like drawn out thing. And Um, weeks after we broke up, he called me and I was thinking, like, oh my god, does he want to get back together there? Does he want to have to talk? Is he finally going to statiate all these outline questions

that I still have about our breakup or whatever. He was like, Hi, I'm so sorry. Um, I have gon arehea and also syphilis. And I'm not sure if I got it like after we dated, or if I got it with the person that I slept with while we were dating. Oh god, it's like a girl's episode. I didn't know that he had cheated on me, it was, and so I found out on that phone call that he had slept with someone else, and I was like, cool, great, cool, cool, cool.

I didn't have gnoihea syphilis. Um, but he did mail me a signed copy of Lena Dunham's book that came out at that exact time, and it literally I literally still have her memoir like two fran Love Lena as a sorry almost gave you gonaiha gift, which is honestly worse than the Gnareha because I can get rid of Gnaia, but I can't selve his book. I have it for life. You know, I don't think I like I think, and

this is hard for me to say. I think I wanted to be her a little bit at the time, because you know, I mean, you're you were talking about like where you were in your life when Girls was coming out. I was in two thousand two, in two thousand twelve when the show would have come out, Like I was exactly the age of the I was almost exactly the age of the characters in the show. I like wanted to be I wanted to do what she

was doing. Um, I don't think I wanted to be her specifically, but like I saw in her someone who was so ambitious and like, you know, I think at the time it was like starting to come out how like connected she was and how much of this like was about nepotism. But like obviously even with that nepotism, she none of this would have happened without her incredible talent um, and I think there was some part of

me that like was kind of inspired by her. Anybody that has aspirations to make TV, which you and I both do, like will rise end. We are very free to have meetings. Yeah exactly, Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, if you want to slide into our dm s and talk about I want to talk to us about our writing projects. We definitely have them. I literally, I mean, I literally have I mean I feel like every you know, fag working in Hollywood has a four Friends leaving in Brooklyn

linked pilot. But but like that five friends, yeah, but of course yes, like of course I have a pilot like that, you know what I mean. But like I think it's a testament to how that format works and how I personally will actually never g tired of that show, like I will always want to show about four Friends and whatever that era of New York is like, because New York is changing all the time, and also who those friends are, because we have only still seen very

specific permutations of it. We still haven't seen the queer version of it. No, I still have not, And like, yes, I know we have things like queer as Folk, which are like the closest approximation, but we haven't. We have not had this. There has not been a version of the like young people living in New York coming of age story told about queer people. So if you want to read my Pilot sad and return about that as a kind of trans sex in the city, you just

slide into my DM mama because she is already. These shows will be made until the end of time, and they will always be both referencing and deconstructing the versions of themselves that came before them, exactly exactly period. We will be back next week with a discussion on Nicole Kidman, The Woman, the Myth, the Legend, heartbreak will feel good on a podcast like this, um please um. You know,

watch your favorite Nicole Kidman movie and anticipation. Um. And you know you could always like tweeted us and tell us which which Nicole Kidman properties you want us to talk about us your stories? Also Instagram our new Instagram like a virgin for nine. Also like tell us what you think about this girl's episode? What's your favorite episode of Girls? Are you a Hannah Amarti a Jessa a Showshana? Are you a Ray? Are you an Adam and um tell us what to talk about next, whether it's you know,

a show, a book, a cultural phenomenon. We want to hear from you, and I think that you can call us or also like We love it when you slide into our d M, so tag our Instagram and tell us like what you want us to watch And of course you can call to confess at three two three repentance. That's three to three seven three six two three two six. Leave us a review on Apple podcasts. We love to see them. I'm your co host Rose Damn You. You can find me anywhere on social media at Rose Damn

You and I'm friends Squishco. You can find me anywhere on social media as well. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts. Leave us a review on Apple podcast or raining on Spotify. Like a Virgin is an i Heeart radio production. Our producers Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Cranechitch and Nikki Etour. Until next week see later. Virgins Me