Send in the Clowns (feat. Caleb Hearon)

you need. Today's episode feels a long time coming because anyone who listened to this podcast knows that at least once an episode, I threatened Frand's life. Yes you do, Yes, you do, remarkably on the record at all times to have threatened. But if Fran ever dies under mysterious circumstances, it was not me, but it might have been our guest Caleb here in who's here to talk all about

John Wayne Gacy and gay murderers at large. I mean both at large as in those who haven't been caught and then just like game murderers as a cultural phenomenon of course, and honestly, Ka, I mean we joke a little bit about it. But Caleb is the person to talk about game murders. Of course. Um. If you're not familiar with Caleb's work, he's like comedian. He has an amazing podcast called Keeping Records with his friend Shelby. He was friends co star in a Muna and Phoebe Bridges

music video. Yes, that's where we met um. But yeah, it's a pretty juicy convo. No pun intended in terms of the juiciness of human flesh. So if you want to hear all about Gaze who kill Um, you are in luck because this is like a virgin the show we give yesterday's pop culture Today's takes. I'm Rose, dam you and I'm fran Toronto. Okay, Rose, I have to say last week we were looking for Tea on drag Race and one of our loyal virgins sent sent some t to us. Are we about to blow up their spot?

Do they work on drag Race and we're like going

to get them fired? Or RuPaul is going to kill them? No, I'm I From what I understand, it feels like some very general Reddit t so we can just continue to say allegedly, So this was this was concerning our grapes that the queens are not getting any constructive criticism, none whatsoever, nothing even slightly negative, and even the stuff some of them, some of them are not, let's be clear, performing well yeah, and and and some of the even sometimes they even

start to say something that could be considered constructive and then they have to end the sentence with a positive and it just feels so forced and unnatural because we've been watching these judges do what they do for eons without ever having to be and also it's drag everything. So the t that was spilt to us was I mean, first off, we were told that like, this season of production has been extremely difficult to produce, and that all the girls are winners and therefore legends and stars but

also probably divas. But apparently the first two or three episodes did have actual like critiques and constructive criticism, but they were retroactively edited out because Raja basically like put her foot down, I mean allegedly put her foot down about the whole thing. Queen who shall not be named on a television show that will not be named, Well, I think it's important that it's Rajah. Well, you know, Rajah literally has a show in which she criticizes people's looks.

I know that's so crazy, and she also is like truly the legend of the season, and I've been kind of shook that she hasn't one. I felt like she deserved to be in the lip sync for two of these episodes. Um, and she's been a little snubbed in my opinion. But anyways, Raja took a stand against the judges and was like, hey, we're not going to take this ship anymore, like we will not be critiqued to

this degree or whatever. And she said, quote unquote allegedly, we don't need you, you need us, And there was like kind of like organizational fury among the queens. Well, that's true. And I think also, if I'm remembering correctly, what that person said in this message was that because this is all Stars, all winners, these queens spent so much money, yes on their looks to be there, and we're like, you are not going to rip us to shreds when we have invested all this to make your

TV show. Because the queens, I think everyone kind of knows this. It's not like the queens get given a budget with which to put together their looks for the runways and for the challenges, like they invest all that money themselves. I think there's like I wish that there had been some sort of balance to strike because like in I'm thinking a lot of a door to Lano and how how shell shocked she was when she came to All Stars Too and was like, I don't belong here.

My sister Michelle, who I love and adore, is like being a TV mom and really mean to me, and it was something that she emotionally could not handle, you know. She was just like in terms of like how criticism functions on the show, like it broke her. And I feel like there's something that is really severe that the Queen's experience that like I'm not privy to, so I'm willing to accept that that there's like, you know, maybe more nuanced than how they should be critiqued. However, it's

not interesting anymore, like the runways. That's what's the point

of having the judges there. It's really not And there is a way to make it work, both, I think, when they're actually shooting it and in the edit, because by the time they get to the final runway of the season, in every normal season, they might throw in like one or two constructive things, but it's still uniformly positive, because what they're saying is like, if you've gotten to this point, you are the best of the best, So we might give you like small little tweaks and nudges,

but for the most part, it's all good. And I think the show could have been like that. I'm not saying these girls deserve to be torn to shreds, but not. Everything they're doing is good. And this is still a drag competition TV show, yes, And the steaks of the game are not high enough, and they're alluding to a twist, and I'll feel like the twist is a fake out, and like I'm just like I want twists, i want thrills, I want chills, and I'm not sure the season is

going to give it to me. And it is getting boring speaking of a show that actually has shade and negative critiques on the judges panel. Um, I am all caught up on Legendary and I have to I have to give you just a quick, little, a quick little

glimpse into how it's going. So in accordance with what we first talked about, it's like, not the best season of Legendary in terms of the competitors, but like the top three and top four of this show, which spoiler alert I'm about to say them are House of Juicy Guitur, House of rev Lan, and House of Yamamoto, which were like my top threes, and they are really that good. They have done like some of the best performances that

I've ever seen in the history of the show. There was this one performance that was a kind of fairy tale interpretation of like Rapunzel, but like she had brave, like really long kind of like braids, and like it

was so so seamless and gorgeous. But um, whoever is booking the guest judges for this show like needs to be held accountable because like there have been amazing people like Issa Ray, Bob the Drag Queen, Kelly Rowland, Um, Dominique Jackson, Leslie Jones, and then out of nowhere, some white guy named Jake Wesley Rogers who was introduced as the next Elton John on which, first of all, no

thank you, um. Second of all, it's like some white guy in like you know, a feather bow up moment who gave a full performance on the show because now guest judges, I guess apparently give performances and then sat at you know, his little chair and like, you know, basically did nothing, had no connection to ballroom, had no connection really to the show, didn't really know what he

was talking about, and his performance was bad. At In his like piano ballad, he talked about like if Marcia and Sylvia could be with us now, like blah blah blah, like something kind of like crazy weird like white ally ship like anthem music. But it was infuriating because I went and googled this man and he has a hundred thousand followers on Instagram, and I was like, this person is like not even like famous, like this is like

an influencer question Mark. Well maybe he's like I don't know, legendaries on HBO, so maybe he's like some new like Ward or is like artists they're trying to push. How all those like back door things happen. People get attached to shows to like promote them. I definitely think that's what's happening, because it is. It was ugly to behold, and I was like, why are you here? Um, speaking of which I had no idea Kekie Palmer did music,

or rather maybe I did, and I forgot. Did you know that she does seem like one of those triple threats, you know, one of the one of the actors, one of the stars who can do it all, which I actually have been thinking about a lot this weekend of a time when stars were stars, because I revisited the two thousand three filmed Down with Love this weekend with our friend La La and you and McGregor and Renee's Elwigger are in it, and I was just remembering a

time when like the real stars could do it all, They could act, sing, dance, they were triple thre us. If you want an in depth um rundown of my take on Down with Love, I did make a TikTok about it. Yeah, so feel free to lit to virgins go watch that, But I mean baseline like it is one of the best movies ever made, um perbetly and so many times on the pot about so many and it reminded me how obsessed I was with you and McGregor post Mulan rouge, and I think I'm I'm back

on my you and bullshit. I finally started. This all happened because our friend La La and I were going to watch Obi Wan Kenobi, the New Star Wars show, and then somehow we're like, actually, let's watch it down with love and staid. Um. But I did start watching. Yeah, I did start watching Obi Wan Kenobi yesterday. But I love you and McGregor. Have you ever seen Velvet Goldwine? No, I've never even heard of that. It's very gay. You

need to watch it. Also, something very gay that I watched this weekend was one one Dalmatians, the Glen Close version, Glen's version, which have you still have never seen? I have never seen it? Um. I know I probably should have because I did go into such a spiral after Cruella came out last year. But yeah, I'll find some time soon and watch it, honestly now that now that I have so much more free time on my hands after our episode, you did end up watching Fatal Attraction, right? No?

Oh you didn't? Okay, Well, they're very like my list. They're very double features. To me, Fatal Attraction to to one hundred one Dalmatians is like there's a distinct through line there. Um, well, the through line is Glenn Close. That I mean Glenn Close inhabiting a very specific character that I think, you know, I think it's very nuanced and beautiful, and I think when I was a kid. In watching this movie, it's just it's a cartoon, you know, I mean like it's live action, but it's there. The

actings ry cartoonish. It's very silly. It's a lot of physical comedy. But watching it as an adult, first of all, Glenn isn't full drag and she's playing like a mean, pompous, like elitist like editor in chief like years before Miranda Priestley existed, And I thought that that was like so something that I hadn't really thought about. Um, But also like obviously Glenn is getting giving a performance of a lifetime.

But um, the guys that play like the Henchman, which are Hugh Laurie and the guy that plays Mr Weasley and Harry Potter, are like the guys that are trying to basically like capture the dogs. They are giving physical comedy that is so like Home Alone level good and funny, like still funny to this day as an adult that like I'm feeling like honestly like physical comedy. It deserves to be like in the prestige acting category, like these

actors are empty. I mean, yeah, it is a little empty, but that's it's it's a little It's a little kid's choice, like they should. They're they're getting they're getting slimed. They're not getting They're not getting prestige. Honey, slime that drop drop dropped the slime. But I just had to, you know, have a moment for them. I wish I could slime you. I would probably hate that unless it was like for money.

I really hate being like dirt. I think I have been slimed before, um because there used to be a sort of like Nickelodeon experience at Universal when I was a kid, and I do remember getting slimed in and around the time that I got to visit the set of Galagala Island. Oh I missed Galagala Island. Maybe we should should we go now to Galagala Island Island? Since we just spontaneously erupted into song, I do feel like it is a good time to have Kate Bush enter

the chat um. If you have been on the internet any time since Stranger Things came out, you will know that Kate Bush was a big part of the new season and has made a cultural resurgence. She's been on the Billboard charts like she's been charting everywhere, running up that Hill, and there's I don't even know how how real this is that some people are like, oh no, we had to gate keep Kate Bush, we can't let everyone know about her. Um, that might just be like

more of a meme. But if there are people who are saying that, like, please shut up, it is. It is incredible that I was in the car the other day and Kate Bush came on the radio. Not not an oldies channel, not like an eighties channel, she was just on the radio, and it was that was incredible. And anything that gets more people to listen to Kate Bush and and like especially a younger generation that will carry her music on so that it lives forever, that

is a good thing. Kate Bush deserves that. And also, Kate Bush is not like a secret She's not I was not an underground artist. And it is amazing that every other TikTok I see Running Up that Hill is

the background music. I agree, And you know, I'm someone who usually loves to get keep, but I I feel like, I mean, obviously, you know, when Poes had Running Up the Hill as a thematic through line in the first season, I honestly I felt more compelled by that so like, I'm like, you know a little like I roll about the Stranger Things, but obviously Stranger Things is a much huger phenomenon. So I mean, I love watching Kay transcend

over and over again. Even though you know, you and I have been she's been our number one, you know, always and forever. Wait, what did we decide? Kate Bush's stand base is called Lion Hearts. That's that's what we're called Lion Hearts. I love that. And also some of her other music is also entering the charts, like Wathering Heights has started to chart. And also here's some other Kate Bush songs that need the running up that hill treatment.

Rubber band girl, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. I just want girl, no no no, put some others, put some others, give us a few more, give us a little digest. I don't know. I do think we need like a big Weathering Heights moment and maybe um and you're gonna roast me for this because I've already tweeted it, but like, I think that if the kid Bush of sons can lead to us finally getting a big budget Wathering Heights adaptation, which like somehow has never bag. I mean I'm sure,

like a virgin will fact check me on that. I'm sure there's like some fucking like BBC mini series of it, but I think we need a contemporary Weathering Heights adaptation. I'm offering myself up to be a right or on it. I'm seeing like an eight episode limited series. Um, that would be incredible. I'm in I would love that that that she needs some she needs many adaptations. I would love to honestly see a k Bush Jukebox musical, even though those are all kind of horrible, but I would watch.

It's funny because like usually it's like we'll bring someone and I'll be like, let's talk about Twilight, Let's talk about America's next top model, and um, when I was like we should have Caleb as guest, we were like, what should we talk about? And I was like, well, Caleb talks a lot about John Wyne Casey. Look, look I'm ready to talk about And I did some research. I watched like four episodes of the Peacock documentary Last Thank You, So I feel like I am terrorized. It's insane.

I feel like I was you know, I was watching my sister on screen. Yeah, my sister John yes, Sister in Christ. John Wayne Gacy was first and foremost funny. He was funny. He like literally in those if you watch there's a there's a long Peacock docuseries, then there's now a Netflix one as well. I've watched both of them.

John Wyn Gaycy has some of the funniest because they have like interviews with him and he just would say like he at one point was like it was like everyone thinks that I did the clown stuff so that I could find victims, and that's not true. I did clowning because it was fun. He's like, it's truly like it's the same energy as if you just like photoshopped in like the drag Race confessional background, like it would work incredibly well. Which which one is better? Do you

think the Peacock one is better? The Netflix one? I think probably the Well, it's hard because the Netflix one is really like if you really want to get in the details, like they're like like they do like timelines and family like victim family involved. The creative direction is a little better too, Yeah, the Netflix. The Netflix one is like, um, I would say, more of an undertaking. So that's more about the totality of the victims, and I kind of feel like the peacock one is more

about him. Yeah, yes, yes, okay, you hear from the victims families. I want, I want, I want both. I also want more details about how he killed them. It's not bad. I mean no, that's very you. I mean no, no offense. But you do have a lot of murderer vibes. Thank you. I've always something about you. Oh my god, I say Rose has killed before, We'll kill you. That's what I say. It's amazing that they were like that. Everyone was like, wow, Clownary, that's so insidious, and He's like, no, no, no,

you guys, I just genuinely loved clown. I just loved to He also says. He also says, um, people call me, people call me the gay killer clown. I'm bisexual. Yeah, thank you. I love that visibility for my community. Yeah, bisexual bisexual clowns. Just bisexual clown killer conrad sexual. Um. But yeah, I I learning the thing that the biggest kind of like takeaway I got at least from John Wayne Daisy himself was like, look, look look like I'm

not like a bad guy, like not a monster. I've just killed thirty three people, like it was a matter of fact to him. It was like a thing he did once. Yeah, I like when I'm they're talking to him the documentary and his sister has found out that he has been arrested, and she asked him if he killed someone, and they still thought that he had only killed one person, and she asked him, did you kill anybody? And he went uh huh, like he didn't say yes. He didn't say no. He said sure did well. He

also yep, it's giving yes. He also went to he went to prison. If you if for listeners, if you um all my fans out there who are listening to um. He went to prison in Iowa for like committing like a sex crime against a young boy. And then so to me and then he and then he in prison like charms the staff. He like, they like start they let him become the head chef. He like gets a mini golf course and he literally gets a mini golf course installed at the prison. Wait, and then they let

out that's like queer eye. He queer eye queer And then they let him out early because they liked him so much, like yes, and then he went to Chicago and killed a bunch of people came into federal prison and he said, look, this wallpaper just will not do. Caleb, when did you fall in love with John Wayne? Yeah, was because I know that it's like a deep and somewhat sexual kind of love, right, And I would refute that, but it's your podcast, so that idea. You heard it

here first, you heard it here first, Breaking Breaking. I mean basically, I really was like, I'm infatuated with the fact that he's fat. Like I was like, Oh, a fat person who did something so evil. I think that's so interesting because a lot of like a lot of um killers I guess shouldn't say a lot, but there are a number of killers who like won people over by like like Ted Bundy, you know what I mean. Like he was everyone said, Jeffrey Dahmer, Yeah, my god

was hot. No, I mean you're so sexy. You don't kill people. Don't do that. As an aside, though, like all every single documentary ever made about a murderer, like it's always like people like but he was so classically handsome, like his blue eyes, he was and looks like a booger. Everyone, everyone with John and Gacy was like, well, he really ran a parade you know, like he like organized a parade in Chicago and people are really charmed by that. And I'm just like, oh, that's fascinating to me. And

he lured people in by they worked for him. He had a contracting company, one of many businesses. He also, I think owned some kfc s. He was a CEO. He was Yeah, he was on his girl Boster forget. And he did the idea of being alive. He kept the idea of not being sexually assaulted and killed anyone ended it. Okay, so you were fascinated by this charismatic killer um and and what you know what, Like it's funny because like I think the first or second time

we met you brought it up. I think maybe the doc had just come out or something, and you I didn't really know you the one I was like, why is this guy talking about? But also that's like exactly my like the thing I want to talk about, you know, like exactly where my humor lies. Um. But it what was it? What? Why was it like fresh on your mind? Or like what why does it continue to? What are you obsessed about with? There are two reasons. The first is that the documentary came out then, so much more

about him. I've always like, in the time of knowing him, like what I probably learned about him high school, college or something. I have been like, Oh, it's fascinating that he was such a he He's maybe one of the big examples of a serial killer who had a true double life. Like he was like a family man, a business guy. He was like a community dude. His family was in the house where he was hiding bodies. Yes, and his wife, by the way, knew. She was like she was like, I knew he had boys out there.

I just didn't know what he was doing. It's like the boys come, they don't leave, babe. Can we draw some conclusions like she knew? So anyway, So the documentary come out. And then the second reason is I am obsessed with the fact and I'm scared to say this publicly because I don't want someone to do it before I get a chance to be a part of it. I am completely confused a byt the fact he doesn't

have a biopic. I here's the thing. I mean, I think we talked about this when we first when we first like when we were at that like bonfire thing, and there is unfortunately satired he had and there's a really good there's a really good movie in that. Yeah. Absolutely, I'm shocked. Well because I think the closest that's come is um the Freak Show season of American Horror Story where they had the clown. But yeah, I am. I'm shocked. Ryan Murphy, how haven't tried it? Probably just because John

Wayne Gazy isn't hot. I'm I'm telling you, there's some fat He's like, I can't cast any of the burnette people with very defined eyebrows that I like to cast in movies. Um, Like, he just kind of cast the exact same guy, like over and over again. Right, It's like, I mean, it's just a bunch of brunettes. Well, hang on, have you seen that? Have you seen to have? I've been on tumbled in the past twenty years. I think

that it's crazy. It's never biopic. I think the John Wayne Gacy biopic will go hard, like a gritty dark like there, I'm it'll happen. I don't have That's how you'll win your Oscar, Honey. If you think I haven't said this before, I mean, biopics are a great way to go if you want to win an Oscar. But the thing is okay, I know I saw Bohemian Rhapsody unfortunately,

thank you. When actors actresses like decide to play murderers, it's always like why you know what I mean, because they want to win awards, Like it's that that Charlie has won her oscar you know she like got ugly to play Eileen Warnos queen. Yeah. What always like when zac Efron played I can't remember who he played, Ted Bundy, and then Evan Peters is going to be in the New Ryan Murphy Jeffrey Dahmer. Evan Peters plays a murder and like everything I feel it's true. It's a way

to prove your seriousness. I think. I think people go because like zac Efron needed to prove a seriousness from the Disney era, right, Um, Like I think, yeah, it's a way for people to go, oh they can actually they can actually act, you know. I think it's like a big turn for people and we love now well now the culture is so much about um empathizing with the murderers and figuring out the psychology of why they did what they did. We have this huge cultural preoccupation

with true crime. Um. I think both like fictional and you know documentary, So yeah, I do. It does feel like these two John Wayne Gacy shows are a sign that this is a story we will be exploring more, because I feel like we've had like five Ted Mundy things, We've had a bunch of Jeffrey Dahmer things. Now now I think it's sending in the clowns, sending the clowns, send to send in the clown So how how would you play him? Uh? Well, do I have the Do

I have the depth to play John Wayne Gacy? Absolutely? But but but do I have the desire? Yes? But do I ultimately think it's gonna happen? I think so too. The movie about him would be a movie about the double life of it, all right, the charming like seeing him as as the who the world thinks he is, and then it has to be a very specific turn when you see him as he actually is, like this

horrible monster. And I think there's a there's a part in the documentary that it is a really good there's a really good way to do it that I think is the only way to do it. So unfortunately I'll have to write the screenplays. Yeah, it's really because even in the documentary um. When he's describing how he actually killed people, it's still very like he's so normal. When he's talking about the turn a kit he made to strangle them, it's just like he's talking about, you know,

like one of his construction jobs. It's so matter of fact. And I just wonder what it was like when it was actually happening. I wonder if he maintained that while he was murdering these people, or if he became scary scary clown killer the Netflix. The Netflix documentary talks they interview a guy who got away. Yeah, the interview of victim, like a potential victim horrifying. Oh, I watched that area. I watched. I watched documentaries about everything. Documentaries are like

mostly what I watched. And I will say that that moment when he was talking about, like he talks about when John Wayne Casey was probably about to kill him I had to turn, I was like, I actually I cannot watch this right now. It was really horrifying. Yeah, I wouldn't watch it as soon as I was already in a dark when we have to prepare for this episode about a rough week mentally like been in a dark place, I was like, oh great, now I have to learn about John We were we frands the other night.

We were emailing my therapist about Alexa proviscriped and like, I'm like watching a Docky series about John Wayne Gaze. At the same time, I'm like, I don't know something about my job, my chosen profession. The other night we were at friends and like I was going through it and we were like trying to figure out something to watch, and we were like, oh, we're recording with Caleb this weekend. I guess we should try to watch the John Wayne Gayzy talk. And I think we both looked at each

other and we're like, not now now. I also want to let the listeners know. I have a couple of notes for the listeners. The first is that the I was asked to do the podcast, I said yes, of course I would love to the podcast, and then you guys producer emailed me and said, we really think you should do gay Killers. Don't have talked about anything. I did not do that. I talked about anything. Emails Phoebe

pro user. Phoebe really pushed that hard. You are open to anybody, like Pope said, we will die if you don't do kill. What is the other thing you would have done I would have done anything. I don't I would have done anything. So so Brand's Brand's telling the listeners like I was in a a dark place, but Caleb made me watch this for his episode. I'm like, please, baby, I would have talked about I would have talked about the history of high heels. I would have talked about

an actress in a movie. No, okay, this is like like a Virgin is a freeform podcast, okay, And for the Virgin at home, we we do not non consensually forced topic sign two potential guests, producer Phoebe will be reprimanded. Just kidding. We are a non punitive organization. We love you had let's talk about I mean, I want to talk more about but also like, what would the other topics have been? Curiosity? Truly, I was truly. Phoebe was like what about this? And I was like, I was like, yeah,

that's fine. Like I was come talking about anything. What would the other topics have been? I'll throw out some right off the top. Julia Roberts in general, in general, she's done everything for us. Aeron Rockovich, she has Julia Roberts and like, the thing is that there are no more Julia Roberts is there, will never be There will never be never. And it's also so sad that she's doing a show on like Cinemax right now or something. I've never watched that Homecoming show with the wig. I

never will. I think this golden age of A list actors on TV has maybe run on a little long, and I want them back back in theater. I want it to be like how when you see previews now and they say exclusively in theaters and it sounds like a threat because of COVID. That's what I want for Julia Roberts, exclusively in theaters. My put my A List is back on the big screen. Yeah, Nsata Jones getting her out of Lifetime movies up to the big screen.

She's doing the thing about Pam. It's like this, like random, what is it on? Like I don't know, like sun Stream platform I've never heard of, and I'm like, oh, girl, Kirsten Duns to that Fargo show, which, like I've heard is great. But she's in movies. Yeah, needed to be back. And here's what I will say also about TV and movies. Julia Roberts is in the only in my opinion the only successful stage to screen adaptation ever, which is, of

course August so Stage County. Oly. It is the only play that has ever been successfully and well adapted to film and Meryl isms Meryll's Big Time in the thank you it would not have been made without her and miss Margot Martindale. Of course I never saw the movie, but I did see the original Broadway production, Thank you for going. Yes, You're welcome, brave and supporting life theater um August Age County as the only Okay, wait wait, but also I mean, does that so you're excluding like

angels in America? I guess that's kind of hard to get through, Like you're talking some just plays or are we including musical? Go ahead and include musical? Because go ahead, and you're going to tell me that Chicago, that august s Age County is better than Chicago. I'll tell you two things. First of all, yes, and second of all, for context, I've never seen Chicago. Oh my god. Either one. I don't care. You don't need to see it on stage, but on screen you absolutely have to. It's the best

movie ever made. I I don't know. I don't know about that, but it is. It is really good. Um, wait, there's another stage to screen one that I was thinking. I was like, that was actually really the musical parts one into coming in. Never wait, I will give you a really close second. I will give you a really close second. It does not top August Stage County hair Spray,

hair Spur Good hair Spray, got there. You know what's a really dark fact about me is that when I was in high school, I performed Good Morning Baltimore at the opening number from a hair Spray at mar Lagos good Morning. No brand always says that saying too much on this podcast, The Incredible Good give it up. He wasn't there. I think I also didn't. I did not perform a solo. It's not like I was Tracy turn it was. It was a group number, but it was at Marl. I did perform. I did perform at the

Fascist Tower. It was the King, wasn't There was a fundraiser that was a really scary good impression by the way, that was terrified. It was a fundraiser for the n r R. Yeah, I've never seen you there at Marl. Yeah. I know. Well they don't let me in post transition. God, I forgot about Yeah, she's the only one was Julia Roberts ever going a musical because like every like prestige

actor always tries to do a musical, I know. But there was a On the flip side, there was a musical adaptation of Pretty Woman that I saw a couple of years ago, and it was one of the worst pieces I've ever seen on stage. I could see that. Yeah, it was horrid. I could see that being the truth. And your favorite Julie Roberts movie is as if you could pay I just um, I wasn't prepared for this because Phoebe forced me to do Get Killer, my favorite Julia Roberts movie. Um, I'm gonna just have to say,

I do think it's mona Lisa smile. I never seen it, well, I've never seen it, and it's all the girls are in it right, Oh yeah, Kirsten dunns Um, Maggie, Jillan Hall, Julia Stiles, Julia Styles of course canonically Julia Stiles say, Julia Roberts, all the Julia's, every Juliet you could they really, Yeah, they gathered all the Julia's for that one. Yeah. Yeah, Um, that movie is great. But I'm surprised that that's your

first pick a favorite. It's Aaron. Aaron Brockovich is actually maybe in like top five top ten movies for me. Aaron Barkovich is amazing. It's a perfect film. I don't like it because of the politics. Yes, Mine is my best friend's wedding. Oh my god, the best rom com ever made. One of the best Chicago movies ever made. Also, oh, Chicago movie, it's worth I forgot that it's made in Chicago. You mean other than Chicago. That the movie? You do

you not see Chicago when you're from Chico. From Chicago. I don't like musicals. Uh yeah, yeah, I don't like because it's it's every time something, every time a feeling gets too big, they start singing. But you know what's interesting is I could definitely see a John Wayne Gacy musical. Not only can you see that, you will see that. Come on out? Can you sing um a little? Just a little? You definitely can. I've heard it. I've heard it before, just a little. I would give anything in

other than hard working commitment. I would give anything in the world to be a musician, and instead I do comedy because that's easier. Musician, Like what kind of music? Oh god? You also talked a lot about Garth Brooks when during at that fire I thought we were having a cousual hang out. Fan remembers everything because I will say something and she'll go, well, actually, last week you said this about this. She clocks on the record. It's

it's on a podcast, available files everything away. She I don't remember a single thing that happens once we record an episode of this podcast, I like ejected from my banking on. Yeah, I gotta go, yeah, yeah, I mean, I love Garth Brooks. Garth Brooks is one of the most sensational performers to ever live. And what was his alter egos name Chris Gaines, which which was a bold? Which was a bold. Here's the thing, the girls don't take creative risks like Garth Brooks anymore. Garth Brooks tried

to do an entire alter ego. What he was really wait, tell me more Garth Brooks in the I want to say it's it is late nineties or early two thousand, Garth Brooks does this alter ego? Now, Apparently it was for and I don't know if this is just a cover story they came up with. Apparently Garth Brooks was going to be in a movie where he played this this this like moody kind of rock musician named Chris Gaines who has like longer black hair and like a

black like goatee. What And he put out an album as this person and like and it performed as as Chris Gaines an alter ego, and it was critically destroyed. Okay, I was going to say, but he's at the height of it. It was a serve. And also people don't I don't think a lot of people understand Garth Brooks was the most famous musician in the world. Like he he was not just the biggest country arts in the world. He was selling out like the biggest stadiums in the

world three nights in a row. It was massive. He he had the I think I think to date he still has the biggest Central Park concert in history. I don't think I could name one single Garth Brooks song. I'm not necessarily proud of that, but like, well, go off for Garth Brooks to to fully like, um, it's like Lady Gaga doing Joe Caled around for a whole album. Yeah, she was like, it's it's me Joe. But I think now, I think now, like Garth Brooks could totally do that

and get away with it. Yeah, I think I think it was. I think it's cool to be at the very top of your thing and have the kind of fearlessness it takes to do something so counter to what people want from you and so counter to what pays the bills. I think is like, that's actual artistry. Even though that I like the Chris Gaines project, not really, but like I like the I like the energy of being like I'm at the top of my game and

have the biggest musicians in the world. Suck at all, I'm gonna Also, Chris Gaines does have a little bit serial killer energy for sure. It does a little to get back on top. Let's get it back in the corner with a gun. Okay, I want to I wanted. She's usually in the studio. She's not here today. They make it. What I want to know is your theory on why are there's so many gay murderers? Yeah, what is that? Being gay is a mental illness and that

must be said, and it's not normal. And so once you allow yourself to go to that place, I think it's easy to allow yourself to go to other crimes. It's a gayway thing pathologically, you know it, just it makes clinical sense. Okay to be too. I know you're being funny, but I do. But do do also think

that was dead? Si? I do. I know you're being funny, girl, but I do also think, especially in the seventies, like when you are, when you have desires that are so not normative in that social structure, like, isn't that much of a leap to be like, well, people already think I should go to prison for fucking someone in the ass, Like why didn't I just kill people? Well, okay, if we're going to be if I have to be as serious, no no, no, no, no, we don't know no no no,

but I will say the thing of it. I think there are a lot of gay sociopaths. Whether or not to become killers is another thing, but yeah, I know many of them. I'm like, I I got a brunch with these people. I The thing about growing up in the closet is and so many more people did back then in such a more intense way. You learn how to mimic normal behavior, and you learn how to give people what they want, right sociopath shit, And so if

you if you get good at doing that. I can totally understand how it comes, how it becomes this thing where like you, yeah, you you you're willing to do things that other people aren't willing to do because you truly believe you can hide it and please people and give them what they want to see because you're used to doing that, you know what I mean. You're gay in like the sixties, seventies, and eighties, you have to have a double life anyways, Like why not be a killer?

Which is why he was killing other gay people? But gays are still killing today. I was last night, I was having dinner with some friends and one of them was telling me that their ex boyfriend had a very close brush with death from a gay serial killer because he was supposed to go camping with like his personal trainer and couldn't go last minute, And then the trainer never showed back up at the gym, and they found out later that the boys that he had taken into

the woods he had killed them. Yes, what, there's still a bunch of yeah, yeah, did Johnny Casey eat anybody that was that was bad that was not his? I also think he's just like burying them. I also think, like if you're going to kill people and have like bodies around, Like I kind of want to know what it tastes. Like you're saying, if there was a dead body, you rose would eat something? Just a taste, just a

taste what you saying? Like I'm saying, like in you know, if I lived in like hostile circumstances like the movie Hostel or Yellow Jackets, Yellow Jackets or um that movie Flesh that just came out with Sebastian stand and like I had so much money and so much power over people's lives, Like, yeah, I would want to try it. I just saw a headline recently about a guy who was like trapped at an elevator with his wife and

he killed her an eider. But they were in there for like less than two days and he got in a lot of trouble and he also like he had a bag of trail mix and he was not in the mood for that. He actually went to the elevator with her dead body and a carving knife, and he's like he's the one that made it stop. Okay, Well, like what you wouldn't just eat it raw? Though, would you? Like? How would you I would cook it? How would you

prepare it. Um, I think I don't have an air fryer, and I'm not getting one for you know, I saw a TikTok yesterday that said it, I would do literally anything to have an air fryer, except by one, and that it's exactly how I feel about it. Um. I think I would make like a steak. I would want to eat. I would want to eat the butt. Um. That's that's a big part of that movie, flesh Fresh, Fresh Fresh. I think fresh, but it's like but I saw after It's good. It's a good cut. I'm sure

maybe maybe some breast meat. I would maybe do like a fried kind of fried chicken sandwich scenario, like a fried sandwich, or a leg like you'd have like one of the big turkey legs at Disney. But I mean if I had to have someone God, speaking of turkey legs, I got invited to the Renfair. Have you? Oh God, No, are you kidding you? Oh? I can't stand it. I'm I'm on your side here and I can't stand it. I'm so sorry. I love it, but you want nothing but to be close to you. No, I said. My

friend text me and said, do you want to go? It? Was a bunch of people I love. She said, you want to go with me and a bunch of people you love? And I text back and I said, that sounds horrible. Okay, well, if that happens again, text me. I'll say that sounds like a nightmare to me. But my friend Rose, whom you don't know, must she's not gonna see She's not gonna go with you. She's not gonna say hi. You won't know her, she will. Yeah,

I mean the inevitable question. Honestly, if we're getting on the topic of cannibalism, it's like if you so, if you were a serial murderer, a serial gay murderer, like how what what would the double life be? How would you be hiding bodies? Definitely not in the basement of my own house, I can tell you either, Like why would you do that? All of these murders like hid stuff in their own house, like talk about barrier gaze, like that really was it. I wouldn't do it because

I'm such a moral person. I just never get to that place. Okay, But if you did too, I think, uh, because I think that's not true, and I think you would you find out on an actual killer actually maybe tests too much. The lady doth protests too much. I think actually the house makes sense now that I think about it, like it is your place. You control who goes in and out. But then the thing about John wayn Gaesy is he started inviting the cops over for dinner.

Yeah that's great, let's have a little he got uncomfortable. Yeah yeah, I do think he wanted to get caught for sure. He just want work. It's just not well. That's the thing with a lot of serial killers is they do want like sociopaths, they want that recognition. And also I think a lot of them must understand that it's not sustainable. They will get caught at some point, and so they might as well put on a little show.

That's why they'll go dormant. Sometimes serial killers will go dormant for years and then be like I just can't stop, And then they go back. I'm like, oh my god, you got away with it. You if you were if you went doring for twelve years and then came back to it, you were away with it. You were done. You could have been free of it all. But then they just do it again, and I feel like, I mean, maybe,

but you know, if he wanted to get caught. I'm sure like he got caught in the headlines RAND that week and he was like, you know, what representation matter. But then it's interesting when you see the footage of him like in handcuffs, his heads down, it's like he doesn't want anyone to see him. Um he did he tried to kill himself or I think, But I wonder if maybe that was all just part of the show. He went to his father's grave and was going to

kill himself over his father's grave when they apprehended. But I think he's too much of a narcissist. I don't think he actually wanted to die. No, No, for sure not. He Also it was like when he was in prison, he would beat up people for being gay. He was weirdly. He was weirdly. He was weirdly homophobic, you know, hilarious. He's dead now, right, Yes, he died. I want to say he died, well did he eventually? I don't know if they actually got gave him the death penalty, if

he died of a heart attack. Rest in power. But he died. Not that um I was reading about, because they all they found everything at his house or whatever, and I was like, what the funk happened in that house? They fully like the house continued to sell and resell, like obviously it was like on the market for a very long time, but like it literally sold last year. Would you would you spend a night there? Never? I mean if was paid, yes, but in god real estate,

no you're not. You're not being paid. If I was like fran I got us an Airbnb and it was John Wayne probably is an Airbnb. It's probably like a Joshua Tree esque like gentrify, like you know, cactus and a little terrarium. Would you go? Would you go for the gag? No? Would you spend a name Johnny Gas? Absolutely not. I'm gathering I would for the weekend a weekend quick? What would you What would you do there? Um? You know, I'd like sleep in, read some books, maybe

like do a tarot reading. You wanted to summon the spirits of all the twinks he murdered on the lamy want to help me move on? It's like a circuit party up in there, just with ghosts. That's what ghost circuit party. Yeah, it's like it's like a drag race viewing. You do it on a Friday. That's the thing about Yeah, I'm hosting at John Wayne Gacy's house. I feel like, even even if you don't have like an ounce of superstition in your body, what would move you to buy

this house? Like being four dollars? Real estate's crazy real estate. It's crazy wa Chicago. Yeah, I was. I've been watching The Staircase on HBO. Have you watched it? I watched the original doc. I haven't seen that. I've never seen the original doc and I really want to watch the show. So the show is about a documentary that was made about Michael Peterson, who allegedly killed his wife. Um. It

was a documentary series that was made by some French filmmakers. Um. This all happened in two thousand one, and now this is an HBO show about all of this, starring Colin Firth and Tony Collette. The most recent episode, Colin Firth is in prison and they're trying to you know, get money for his defense and appeals, and they're selling his house and like they have a huge mansion and they're saying that they they're going to have to sell it for like way under asking because of what happened there

and I'm just like, I don't know. I feel like there's some sickos out there who would pay more for a house. That's what I was going to say. It's like a historic like s Mark. Yeah, at least market value. Also someone someone has died everywhere. Yeah, that's the point. Definitely died in this room. I had Did you do it? You do? I mean like you are on record on this podcast threatening to kill people was like, I know,

at least to the tea where people have. Um. I like, while I was looking at John and gazy stuff, I also got into the Lorraina Bobbitt case. Do you know about Lorna Bobbit by any chance? She's the woman that chopped off the off She got the dick off. Her husband's name was John Wayne, John Wayne Bobbitt. Isn't that crazy? And John Wayne was like the twenty nine most popular name in the sixties or something. Yeah, I am my.

My mom's said of family was big on like John Wayne lore So that kind of like tracks to me. But um, yeah, the Lorena Bobbit thing was kind of crazy because, like everyone the whole story like at least well, I mean funny back story for me. My sister. She's three years younger than me, but she was born the same year that the Lorena bomba like kind of thing happened. It was like a huge, like newsy sensation that like very narrowly preceded Tanya Harding's like big like media blow up.

And my sister's name when she was born was Lorena, and my parents like literally named her Lorena, and then this like story essentially emerged and my parents were like just kidding. Her name is Marissa now and they legally changed her name to like something different because of this woman. But Lorena is such a cute name. Yeah, Lorena is

a really cute name. And my sister and I really love like the Lorena Bobbitt story now because, like I mean, in the like news media sensations of it all, like it was like a woman chopped guys dick off and threw it in the field and like that was it.

Like she went crazy she had had it with him or whatever, but like she was like a victim of like marital rape and like he was a huge asshole and all this different stuff, and so like she's kind of become this like weird like feminist, maybe not a feminist like people are, Yeah, people are girl bossing her a little bit, which is like I don't think that's the move, but like I think it is. You think like a time to girl boss Lauren. Yeah, because like

I stand Eileen Warnos. Yeah, yeah, any sort of girl murderer. Um. But John Wayne bobbitt Um, after this whole like debacle happened, went off to produce two different porns starring himself, one of which was autobiographical about the Lorena Bobbit's Right And it was an hour and fifteen minutes long and I watched a lot of it. It was crazy. Did you like it? To be honest? Did you jerk off to it? No?

It was like pretty much the low friend. Definitely, the energy and the energy of the studio right now is such that I mean the table just lift it. To be honest, it was like the it was like the least stimulating porn ever. Like these girls like it was kind of like, then, why have you now positioned your entire sexuality? Well, his like his his dick is like, um, pretty small, and so they like go to town. Okay,

I'm not size shaming. I'm just saying that, Like these girls kind of like it's like a kind of group sex scenario, and these girls go to town on his flaccid penis for like too long of a time. It's like I was like, this is not what I watched. Does it eventually get hard? Yes, it does eventually get hard and he ends up having sex. But like, what's

funny is something about to learn about the case. Was that um, she made the mistake of in her like first police interviews saying that um, he could never make her come, and so when she said that, of course, the national story was like he could never make her hump, so she chopped his dick off or whatever. And so

in the actual point, he comes very quickly. But like the whole story that he produces in the first porn about his life like this like a woman plays Lorena and he tells basically his side of the story through point you were just there. Abut Um, the fact that this is your favorite porn, I love that. I love that this horrible person made art out of his trauma. Um, it's so powerful. Is the power of art. A biography

told through porn is very tempting. I will say, like that is something that you were inspired It would be a fun creative challenge. You know, we can hire a lot of our friends. We have a lot of friends that are in porn. Sure, sure, yeah, we're recording at the porn Star right after this. Yeah. Yeah. And and also during this, you've actually a lot of porn out there. Yeah, and it's all extremely off putting their story and not in the good one. Well maybe you could do with

John Wayne gay sy porn. No, oh, people would kill people. People wish autobiographical porn. I assume. Oh yeah, my life story is very present and infused in the projects I call them projects. So there's not only a lot of gay real gay killers. So I feel like, especially in the eighties and nineties, there was a cultural preoccupation with queer murderers in movies. So like Silence of the lamb Um Dressed to Kill, I mean a lot of it was like there's a big trope of like trans murderers.

I love Silence of the Lambs, which I had only seen. I've only seen for the first time, like within the past year and a half. I've never seen it. You've never seen it? Oh my god? Have you have you seen Silence in multiple times? Do you love? I do? I really, really really love Inthony Hopkins performance. So it just is it's like, it's amazing. It puts the lotion on its skin. It puts the lotion on its skin.

I mean truly. The energy between Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins in that movie is just like I could watch. I could watch him sitting in a cage and her sitting on a chair talking. That could be a five hour movie that I would watch. Yes, have you heard

of the TV show Hannibal. I've heard of it. Okay, So there's a TV show Hannibal that's like a Silence of the Lamb's kind of spinoff, and in it, Hannibal Lecter has this sort of psycho sexual relationship with a male FBI agent this time who's played by Hugh Dancy, Clara Daines's husband, and it is one of the shows that has the biggest fandom on Tumblr. There's so much fan fiction written about it. They also are canonically gay in the show, um, but I don't know if they

were kissed. Also, Gillian Anderson in it, and at one point she eats her own leg. Gillian Anderson eats her own leg. Yeah, why need to watch it? I'm not Hannibal Lecter. It's people do things. Wait, do you guys, have you guys watched any or all of the following? No? What is the following is? And you really, really, you guys should watch this virgins please please, I'm making you guys watches and somebody the show has been canceled for years now, somebody save it. The following is got three

seasons on FX. It is uh. It is a Kevin Bacon vehicle. Kevin Bacon plays an FBI agent who has a sordid, deep history personal history with the serial killer played by an actor whose name I can't remember right now. I remember the show you're talking about. And the serial killer has a cult following who will kill for him as well. So there's this deep I mean it's it really is like so there's a there's there's a gay subplots,

there's like these two killers. So it follows Kevin Bacon and his journey with the serial killer and then also his cult followers and what they're doing and with his cult followers. He's so he's essentially an influencer, big time, big time. He got on his live and he was like a fens today we're going to be murdering this person. What do you think. When I was a kid and I got to pick my special birthday meal, it was

always lobster. You are going to be horrified when I tell you what mine was my special birthday again, shout out to people who grew up without money. I didn't even try to pick something special. I literally knew what was available to us. My special birthday meal was um beani weeenies. What is that? Beanieenies? Is where you This is so disgusting. You caramelize like you like caramelize brown sugar, and then uh put cut up hot dogs in it, and then you put that in baked beans and make

it up that. I was like, I was like birthday. I was like, cook up the hot dogs and put him in the beans by first class. I mean I was literally so excited too. I was like, cut him up, bitch. I was like, let's go, it's my day. Have you made that that for yourself as an adult now? Absolutely well? I haven't had it in years now When I um, well, I guess I guess I had. When I was really really broken Chicago, I would sometimes be like, this is actually special, this is really good. I like this. I

definitely should make it for yourself tonight. You wish I could need something that would make me, that would make me ill, But I think you could. You could twist it. You could get like a really nice sausage from like Full Foods or like Gelson's Thank You, some artisanal baked beans, like brown sugar that's like been chopped off a rock. Like I don't know, I have been making. I have been making a stir fry recently that I'm really kind

of getting up. I get. I don't know if you guys do this, but I get I'll make something new and I'll be like, oh, that was pretty good, And then for the next month, every time I cook, I'll make it and make it pilot yeah, over and over again. And it's I'm doing that with right now, with a starfry that has a sausage and black beans in it. Okay. I want to have solidarity with you with for kids

that did not grow with a lot. I will say my birthday was not that we weren't that desperate my parents, like they always tell this story about so my parents were not ready to have me. I was like a honeymoon baby and they were like fun. Now we got to pay for a kid, and they were like, you know, I think a one bedroom apartment. And they all they did love me enough to make more than hot dogs. I will say give them credit at least I'm like some flop in the room. It is. It is a

really sad meal. Like there's all but like I feel like what my parents like when it comes to like sad meals and stuff. My parents like really um. Their first meal like as a couple. They always told me after they found out that they had me they were going to have me as a baby, was a you know baghette, like a French bag at, like when I'm familiar, ninety cents from a block of cheddar, cheese, avocado, rotisserie chicken and lime. Oh so this is where your love

of rotisserie chicken. I love so literally every and that was there, Like that was there, like this meal costs five dollars and we'll stretch over three days or whatever, and this is what we can eat. And like growing up, that was like my ship and I did request it all the time. For my birthday. I want to back at I want to go to and now it is kind of like the rotisseri chick in Sandwich. Now it is like kind of like a comfort meal to me. Like, would you guys Dad asked to Paris for me tonight

midnight in Paris? Um, yeah, I mean we we let's go. What what are we doing in Paris? Are you happy to be in Paris? What if you guys want? I guess we should go to like, um, what's that like famous burlesque show. That's no, not that one, the other the Cat. It's called the Cat. I'll figure it out. I can't remember, but I went, you're thinking of the Eiffel Tower. Yeah, yeah, there's that, you know that that tits and a straw to the Louver. So we should go to the Louver. No boom. I love museum. I

love museums. No, museums are objectively more, guys, you're both pretending people that I listen to Frank Ocean's Bond album at museums, I walk around into the paintings. Tonight, I forced myself to have an experienced. I read the little like read That's what I tell you about the artist's life. I Jean Pierre was suicidal. I was like incredible. Also, the thing is when you're in a foreign country at museums have free WiFi, thank you. It's a great place

to spend a couple of hours checking Instagram. I can't believe you run a culture podcast and you have the audacity to say this is that, this is, this is unacceptable. So let's let's go to Paris. This is actually great timing because I did murder someone and you do need to flee the country. Let's get out of here. Tell us what you want us to talk about next, whether it's a moment in culture, a book, a show, UM, an album. We want to hear from you. You can

call to confess at three to three penance. That's three to three seven three six two six two three, or you can tag us on Instagram like a virgin fore slide into our d M s. We want to hear from you. Um. Also, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. That helps us out so much, even if you're a little you know, spicy with it. UM. I'm your co host, Rose damn you. You can find me on social media at Rose damn You. I'm fran You can find me at Franz squish Co wherever you want,

Like a Virgin is an I heart radio production. Our producers Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane, Chitch and Nikki Tour. See you next week and I hope you don't get murdered my