Old Decrepit Man and Baby Girl

Last night we watched two of the movies that I watched every Halloween. The vibe has begun. It I better catch it, um. And for the virgins who don't know, we are continuing our oooky spooky series with the kind the King of Ook and Spook. Yes, well, the King and the King of sort of like contemporary like consumerist scarity vibes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly for kids. A creator who has had quite a journey, um in a range of films that people love and then films that people

don't love so much. Tim Burton is Today's discussion. As Lydia Diets aka Winona writer once said I myself am strange and unusual, That's correct. She also said that her whole life was a dark room and she had really spiky bangs, which I at one point wanted. You should be her for Halloween. Honestly, I have thought about it. You've never done that before. No, I've never done it. You should never done it, never done Lydia diets and I'll be beetlejuice and I'll marry you. Okay, just kidding.

I would hate that, would never be juice, but I bet you could be sexy beetle juice. Let's look up sexy beetle Justice for it anyway. We need it like a virgin. This is like a virgin. The show we give yesterday's pop culture, today's takes and Toronto, and I found some beetlejuice. Hello virgins, Hello virgins. We are coming to you from um a different coast or different time zone, a different state of mind, a New York state of mind,

one might say. Definitely, I will say something that is really amazing about you right now, being in New York as you are. You're booked and busy, you are out, you have plans, you are seeing people, you are doing things. Yes, I I do have to say I did enjoy getting to say to you twice this weekend. Oh sorry, Well I didn't apologize because I would never do that. Um, I did say I have plans, and you know what, I think it was ugly of you to assume that

I didn't. Sure. I'm just kidding. I was definitely isn't in accordance with the years that I've known you. Well, no, but hey, you're only speaking from the experience of me being a friendless loser in Los Angeles and in New York. I am a loser with friends. Look, it takes one to know, one says. And the reason I'm here in New York a week early is because I realized all my friends left l A and I was like, oh, no, no,

I need to get myself to New York's. Yeah, but one thing you need to understand was that on Friday when you texted me and asked if I wanted to go out that night, and I said, oh, I have plans, and he said, oh, well, the party doesn't start till eleven. That's not going Just because baby, baby, listen, just because you're on a different coast does not mean I'm a

different woman. And at eleven. At eleven o'clock, the only place I want to be is leaving a movie, leaving dinner, or already in bed, just because i might be a New York City, but I'm not going out to like a party that starts at eleven. Those days are behind me. You just got here and I was thinking, look, the time zones are in your favor. Maybe you know jet lags keeping you up a little bit later. It's a good time to go out. Um, I'm glad you didn't go.

You would have hated the show. Now the only thing that's happened on the L train is me listening to Thoroughfare by e fl Cane on a loop and attempting not to have a public breakdown. Can we talk about how that song is so like the new autumnal anthem, like it is so like ethel Cane is so fall music, and it also is summer music because it's like hot, sticky, sweaty, But yes it is. It is very much helping me

feel the sad girl fall vibes. I've been doing the thing, but just walking around the Upper east Side seeing places where parts of You've Got Mail were shot and listening to listen into ethel Caine seeing places where You've Got Mail shot because you're on a personalized You've Got Mail walking tour. It that that you pulled up, but like there's like five different shooting locations from You've Got Mail

within like a five bluck radius. At my brother's apartment, there's also there's also my brother when when you walk out of his building, the Lincoln Center AMC is within eyesight. It's right across the street. Whoas that's so convenient. I do have to admit something though, which is that this weekend this is really hard to say, I went to a non AMC theater for the first time since I became a Stubb Any stuff? No, which one? Did you

go to? Regal Union Square, which has now even to go to like one of like the Art House Cinema was even go to like fucking Nighthawk or something, and the Metro Regal well Metric. You know, the last movie I saw before COVID was a screening of Melancholia at Metrograph. What did they know? What did they know? Um? They a lot? No, but the Regal Union Square has been totally redone inside it's very like dark and clubby and that is where I saw Smile on Friday. Yeah, there's

like smoke machines. My friend Ryan and I were gonna go see a Triangle of Sadness. Yeah, we were gonna look bad. No, I'm really excited to see it, but it was it was sold out, so we ended up seeing Smile instead. And let me tell you, after seeing a trailer for that movie, every time I saw a movie for the past six months, I was not expecting it to be very good. But it was surprisingly good and scary. I would have expected all the good scenes to be spoiled by the trailer. Was that we were

there a lot of other scenes as well. Were there other scenes? There were other scenes. I will say, if you've seen the trailer, like the full trailer, one of the biggest jump scares in the movie is in the trailer. It's the scene where she's sitting in the car and the woman walks up to her and swings down. But there's plenty of other good jump scares and I screamed a lot. The main actress, Soci Bacon, who's Kevin Bacon's daughter, Um, was very good. She was also kind of giving Flkane

a little bit. And yeah, it was a good movie the theater as much as I love seeing a horror movie with an audience full of people, and it becomes very like communal and you know, everyone's screaming. It was very noisy, and people were talking during the entire film. But God, people talking during movies. That's so and yeah, but but not but not like but not like you know, little snippets of conversation every once in a while, which

my friend Ron and I were doing. At one point we stopped, like like paying attention to the movie to talk about partner track the Netflix show. Um, yeah, no, but there were but everyone else was talking. No, but everyone everyone else was talking throughout the entire year movie and not really trying to keep it at a low volume.

You know, I will say, if it's like a scary movie, I endorse that, like I you know, if we've all, if well, if we've all come to the theater and we're a green, that this is like a kind of fine scary movie that we've seen the trailer for a seven hundred times and so like we don't so we can like act like we're gonna watch it at home. I'm gonna be trash and say that, Um, you know, I'll participate in that, but like I try to catch the vibe of like what the theater is on, right,

I mean not all the time. Like sometimes you and I are just fully talking, but we're still like we're still like whispering and respectful. This was like running commentary. This was like more talking than our Hocus Pocus DVD commentary track. So we now have tried multiple times to talk about the new Interview with the Vampire show, and it has I worked out for one reason or not. So I think now it's a good time to discuss. So, um,

I think we should have that conversation. Yes, and I will preface it for you virgins by saying we are going to dive a little deeper into interview with the Vampire in our vampire centric episode. But when we recorded that, we had not yet seen the new show. So I think it's it's fine for us to just talk about it now. And I've seen all three episodes that are out for and you've seen the first two. I've seen the first, so I have to say, you know, it is now part of my must watch Sunday night TV

alongside House of the Dragon. Um. So some interesting things about this this new adaptation of Anne Rice's you know, I think most famous work is this new show, which is on AMC Plus, has updated the source material, which you know, is about a vampire giving an interview, and the sort of framing device of this is that that interview happened, but it wasn't like really true to life.

And so now the vampire and the journalists aart revisiting their interview fifty years later, and Louis the titular vampires, giving a more honest version of his story. And in this updated version, Louis, rather than being you know, a seventeenth century plantation owner, is now a black queer man in the early nineteen hundreds in New Orleans who runs a string of brothels after his family fortune, you know, kind of like crumbles to dust when his father dies.

And he meets listat Lion Court, who Listed Delenne, who is so hot in this new version, so French, and they fall in love. And the thing about interview with the vampire, and you know, we talk a little bit about this in our Vampire episode, but like to give you a preview. You know, Ann Rice's novel was very gay.

It was explicitly gay. It was, and the film, as much as I love it, it made all of that explicit queerness into subtexts and it's very homo erotic, but it's not out not gay, so subtextual that when I watched it, and again you'll hear this an episode, but when I watched it and Rose told me that there were that it was gay in the book, I was shook. I was like, well, what it's like actually gay because it's really just harmerotic subtexts. In the movie, it's like

really neutered. I'm not gonna But in Anne Rice's novel and in all of her novels, it's very clear that Listat and Louis are lovers, and in this new show

they are also lovers. It is gay. It is It is so gay, and you know, the whole first episode is Listat, you know, seducing Louis, who is already because of the changes that have been made to his character, is already an other um, you know, because he's a black queer man in the early nine hundreds, and then like that gets further exacerbated when he has turned into

a vampire. He's like the ultimate other. But in that first episode, you know, they have this incredible love scene before Lestat turns him into a vampire, he tells him he loves him. It's just so good and sexy. And in this new episode when you watch it, there's like a discussion of open relationships and like polyamory, oh sexuality, And you know, I just love that it's so explicit but still like really sexy and romantic and all the things that an and Rice adaptation should be. I love

the adaptation. It's I'm gonna keep watching. I am, you know, definitely gonna finish out my AMCs free trial for that can to you to give a m C plus my money or whatever. And uh, just as you said, like, I am just really enthralled by the raw sexuality of the show, like sex shuality like with capital s or non sensuality sexuality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I I really

appreciate that. I love how like horny it is. It's very pulpy, right, like it leans into the kind of graphic novel e also you know, Southern gothic kind of edge of it. Um. I love that there's this kind of new spin on this trope that you have pointed out to me over and over again that like a lot of like vampires fight in the Confederate War or something. Yeah, well that's not an interview with the Hire, but that is in UM True Blood, in Twilight, UM, in the

Vampire Diaries, those are all things. Were there vampires who at one that we're Confederate soldiers? Literally all of them were Confederate soldiers. So why so, Like what I'm saying is like I feel because I'm the interview with Vampire Reboot is a period drama. I'm like I feel this, Like,

I mean, it's already very racialized. They have conversations about race that I think are really interesting, and I think my one company is I do think Louis is like can be occasionally like a little fart facey, Like sometimes I wish that he was just a little less soap and a little more like acting. I just like don't really see that. I think he's really good. I just think I'm sometimes I'm watching and I get a little bit of like gladrill and rings of power, like I'm

not really getting the emotion that I want. But he is also really he's not as bad as glad you. Glad you literally cannot make an emotion to save her life, Like still literally okay, sorry, can I spoiler alert something really quick? Sure? Sure? I for for all the virgins listening. Um, I have kind of stopped watching Rings of Power. I'm gonna wait till all the episodes are out and just binge it because I just got really bored. I actually won't even spoil it that hard. All I'm gonna say

is that something happens. We're in a huge part of the world literally explodes, and and glad Reel still cannot make a facial expression, like the world is collapsing on top of her and around her, smoke, fire, brimstone, and she cannot raise an eyebrow. I was like, girl, like, your botox is not like that restrictive, Like, I know you can do this. It's actually comical at this point. But when all the episodes are out and you do watch,

I'm very excited to debrief. Well, I'm not excited to debrief because it's not an exciting show, but I still want to talk to you about anyways. Interview with the Vampire great much better than Rings of Power. Please watch it. It's so good. You haven't you you've watched some of last night's House of the Dragon. Yes, oh, yes, we need to catch up on Okay, but you haven't watched the whole thing, so we can't really catch up. No, so we can't get Maybe for the for the Virsion's benefit,

we won't get into spoilers for last week's episode. But as we are coming up on the end of the season, because I believe there's only two episodes left, what are you most excited about? What are you most excited to see? Where do you think this how do you think the season is going to wrap up? Obviously? Okay, So Rania Damon are going to have like a wild fox sesh. They're gonna kill everyone. Rania is gonna walk up to the bar. She's gonna say, can I have a groaning?

Smuggliante not really just came out of nowhere this weekend. Payton Dicks really put in the word should be paying her honestly, But like I have to say, just to be annoying as an online area, I have been ordering the gronies at dive bars for like years, okay years. I love ordering a groaning at like literally any bar because it's really hard to funk up, you know what I mean? Um, So I don't know like what all this, like you know why everyone's going crazy over Emma because

of the way so hot. God, they are so hot and they're so good like the acting and last night's episode. I mean, I will say last night's episode was not one of my favorites of the season. I thought it was a bit clunky. Um, but the performances across the board are just so good. Yeah. This so I'm a part way through this most recent episode. It's really choppy right there there, trying because they do another time jump, but this is the last six years? Oh is it really? Okay?

That's great. So it's a six year time jump, allegedly the last one. And um, it's like they are just planting plot points in teeny tiny scenes scattered through the whole episode to propel you forward and to kind of get you up to speed, so to speak. And again, like like we said last time, it doesn't feel like, you know, poorly done or like I'm not getting what I want, but I just I want more. So many eggs,

so many eggs. People really in medieval times or whatever just kind of reuse the same five names over and over again. But do you have do you have a favorite character? Yeah, I mean Rania. I love also Rain Rain rainis the who never was um. She she got a lot to do in this episode, which was great. She did, and she's becoming more of like a player, like a real or she always has been, but it is even more so like a player. I also like Helena, who is the daughter of Allison, who seems to have

some kind of prophetic vision thing happening. She might have the dragon dreams that some targe Arians have because she's now predicted a couple of things over the course of these episodes. And she has a sweet little moment in

this episode as well that you'll see. But you know, the thing about the show is, as we've said, it's everyone's bad, even the people that I'm rooting for, Like obviously I'm Team Black, I'm on r near a side at Team Inside, And I think the show is being a little a little heavy handed with wanting you to root for Rani a side by making Allison and the Greens kind of like more obviously and almost cartoonishly villainous, because I think, as we've said, when it comes down

to it, like these are all bad people doing bad things for like the goal of what power. Like that's kind of it, and so I'm not rooting for anyone so much as I'm just enjoying the ride, because at the end of the day, these are all bad people, and I like I already we all we all already know how it ends because we've all watched Game of Thrones, so we know it's going to end badly. But it's just so much fun to see how badly it's gonna end. It is and I think, just like in the container

of the story is still so compelling. So yeah, I'm I'm I hate how much I've grown to like the show, but I think it's kind of my favorite thing on right now. I'm going to be devastated with the vampire, devastated when it ends. Maybe I should be something from

House of the Dragon for Halloween. Um, if you have suggestions for what I should be for Halloween, please slide into our d M s at like a Virgin four twenty sixty nine to let me know, because I still have no clue as someone who hasn't seen quite as much of the Tim Burton cannon as I have. What do you think defines a Tim Burton film? Well, he is a bit than ookie spooky girl. I think like an oogie spooky aesthetic. I think everyone in the movie needs to look blue in the face, just like like

so white that they are blue. Like that actually is the palette that he's working with. And I actually think that palette and like escape of color is is really big in his films, Like there is an aesthetic that

draws everything together. And then would you say, would you say that above all Tim Burton movies are defined by their aesthetic Unfortunately, yeah, um, and I you know it's so funny is as someone who has on the pod said, I'm like much more style over substance sometimes when we were talking about like bas Learman, I do think that Tim Burton is kind of that girl too. Yes, I I will say that I think he has some themes that he does return to that are not just stylistic.

Among them what death, death, the afterlife, um, you know, magic, darkness. He also really likes um murder ghosts. Yes. Also, um, he is very into revisiting sort of older pieces of pop culture. I think he's very much stuck in his childhood and looking back at those things through his lens. So things like Batman, Alice in Wonderland, dark Shadows, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, and he is obsessed with youth

and innocence for a big chunk of his career. And I would say like from the nineties to now, he has primarily made ookie, spooky, family friendly films and entertainment. And these are a lot of these are reboots, right, A lot of these are adaptations of particularly dark stories from the yore of children's storytelling. You know, I think that darkness is something that you can say ends up in every single one of his films, is some capacity

both literal and metaphorical darkness. But I also he is thought of as an auteur, and I think there is a cultural perception that with his films he is writing, directing, doing all of the stylistic work, and in a lot of cases that's not always true. You know, something like Beetlejuice, which I think is a really good place for us to start, because I do believe it his his best work, and we watched it last night. Fran saw it for the first time. Um, he didn't write the script to Beetlejuice.

Beetlejuice was a script that was kind of shuffling around the studio system trying to find the right director and went through a bunch of rewrites until it eventually made its way to Tim Burton. It was a newly much darker and was you know, through his work on it became sort of a lighter. I mean obviously still very you know, tongue in cheek and there are things now that I don't think you'd get away with, and a

sort of like family comedy today. But yeah, I mean it's still like palatable for a PG thirteen audience, even though Beetlejuice does say fuck at least once. Oh, I think in PG thirteen movies you actually can only say fuck once and then if you say at a second time, if you say a second time, it's radar ar. Yeah. Um, I know that because my family, because of how I grew up. Um, but how so you grew up not really watching a lot of Tim Burton. No, Well, what

happened was, um, you know Tim Burton is the Devil. Yes, the encapsulation of the devil and the Devil's presence in mainstream media and was huge at the time of our like growing up. And so I don't know if my parents really knew explicitly like who Tim Burton was, and

then I couldn't watch his movies. But if they were to see a trailer of literally any of his movies, they'd be like, you're you're not watching that, that's like the Devil, And like I didn't see, you know, things like Nightmare before Christmas until I was like a late teen. I didn't see a lot of those movies until I

was older, but I did. By the time I was a teen and entering my hot topic era, I was becoming obsessed quote unquote with Tim Burton, which really just meant that, like I bought Tim Burton T shirts and paraphernalia but actually didn't know that much about his Well, yeah, I do think that the transformation of Tim Burton is from someone who made very strange cult films to someone who is kind of synonymous with the type of genre fandom consumerism that exists at hot topic like Tim Burton

in is hot topic. Yeah, he is, literally, I mean he was paying Hot Topics light bill, Like that's really what was happening. If you walk into a hot topic, you can get your Jack Skellington costume. You can get your like dress that's like a shitty polyester that is like, um, you know, going to spread my grol plastics in this earth for then two years and it's printed with Sally's dress on it. Yeah, and for some reason you can still buy you know, a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory

t shirt or and Alison Wonderland t shirt. God knows why because those are like among his worst films. So, like, so you didn't spend a lot of time with his work when you were a kid. Unsurprisingly, I did. I actually did. I mean I did spend a lot of time like not as a kid kid, but by the time I was a teen, It's just like I did become obsessed and I would tell people that Corpse Bride was my favorite movie. Okay, yeah, Like that's like I think pretending to like Tim Burton was a part of

how I was as a kid. But I do think teenager is still different from kid because if we're talking about the formative power of media, you know, Nightmare Before Christmas, that was that was me as a child, because I remember Before Christmas came out when I was five years old, and I vividly remember the day that my parents got it on VHS and brought it home. My dad also bought me all the action figures. It was my entire world. Um. And I think because I got it so early and

along with that also was into really into beetlejuice. Um, it absolutely informed and formed my tastes and aesthetic and me me being a spooky bitch. And I think if I had gotten it even a little later in life the way that you did, that might not have been true. Or maybe I always would have been drawn to those kinds of things. But I think tim Burton was really the only person who was putting that kind of spook

into things specifically that kids could watch. Yeah, but I mean to go back to the initial question, like what are the other things that make a Tim Burton film that you were like maybe attracted to as a kid, Because I think for me, it's like there's the oooky spooky factor. There's the Danny Elfman's score, there's like his use usually a musical number, yes, usually several, if not several,

that's right. You have this kind of emo sensibility, I think, and everything like in all of his films, there's always some sad boy protagonists, yes, And and at the crux of like pretty much every protagonist is an existential question about like love and death honestly like and and how those things are usually at odds, but also kind of um self fulfillment because he does get pretty existential because you look at like Jack Skellington in The Nightmare Before Christmas?

His whole thing is what what am I doing? What is my purpose? What am I here? For? Edwards scissor Hands, It's it's about why do I am? I? Why do I exist? Even Beetlejuice, it's like, what do I do with my life now that I'm dead? Yeah, now that I'm dead? I think you have a version of that even in Corpse Bride, which a movie that gets a lot of flak, but like, I actually think perfectly distills a lot like of his, of Tim Burton's like philosophical ideas.

It is not very good, No, it's not. I definitely bought it in like the Blockbuster dollar bin. Like you know, remember how Blockbuster used to have those like bins of movies where it was like, when the movie comes out, they buy like ten copies to rent, and then by the time it's like no longer relevant, they don't need ten copies of it, so they sell like nine of for like two dollars I bought Corporate Bride probably for

two dollars, like that is like the vibe. But I but I loved that movie because it was so melodramatic and because as a child, I was attached to a very adult idea of what it means to live the same as like Jack Skellington. Right. And I think that it makes sense that Tim Burton's movies primarily appeal to children because his ideas about human existence are actually pretty shallow, you know what I mean, Like they are childlike, they're

they're very there's something that a child can understand. Yeah, there's not a lot of depth there. And I wonder if it's a regression in a way, because his early work is much more adult. You know, you have Edwood, which neither of us have seen, but it's a biopic about some flop director. And then he does things like Peewee's Big Adventure or which you know ostensibly is still a kids movie but is very adult and used to terrify me as a child, Batman and Batman Returns, which

are very adult and sexy. Um, thank god for Tim Burton giving us some shellfie first Catwoman. I think out of all of these films that that is my favorite Timburton film. I'm pretty gosh darn sure. Do you think you have a favorite Timburton film. Yeah, it's this is tough, It's tough. It's definitely between the night Remember Before Christmas and Beetlejuice. I do think, as I have grown up, it's Beetlejuice that just I will always have a place

in my heart for the night Remember Before Christmas. And I think part of why I pulled away from it is sort of the disnification of the Nightmare Before Christmas and just how it's like every emo scene. Girl in high school had a you know, a Jack Skellington patch on her backpack from Hot Topic. Um, I still love it. It's still amazing. It's not a Halloween movie. It's not a Christmas movie. It's a Thanksgiving movie. It's it's not it's not that's just fun. That's just fun. Mentally not true.

I Phoebe's in here in the studio laughing at you because that is such an inaccurate take. But the older I have grown, I do think of everything he's made, Beetlejuice is the most perfectly aligned to my taste. Um, it's funny, it's spooky, it's a little gross, it's adult, it's adult. It's horny, it's very horny, inappropriately horny, inappropriately horny. Um. I actually, so are you aware of all of the

Beetlejuice musical? Um? I actually am, yeah, but I've never I I know that it was a hit, right, it wasn't really a hit. And actually, so this is the story of the Beetlejuice Musical is that it wasn't really a hit, but it gained a huge cult following in the way that a lot of contemporary musicals that appeal to like people on Tumblr do. Um. But another show, I think it was The Music Man, was moving in

to the theater where it was supposed to be. So it closed two huge fan outcry and there was a campaign to bring it back, and it is now back on Broadway once again. Wait really and actually shook by that because one thing you do not see in this day and age is Tim Burton coming back to relevance in any capacity. Like it's just doesn't He's not really there. The musical is very different from the movie in a lot of ways, and the music was I saw it when it was still in previews, Um, and was not

expecting what it was. Um, but it's really good and the song dead Mom slaps so hard. But anyway, you watched Beetle Juice for the first time last now that you know that it's my favorite Tim Burton movie and it did come out the year I was born, So, um, what did you think? I have such a This really should be a very simple question. Um, but I have a hard time answering it because I think I think the more I think about it, I don't think I

necessarily personally enjoyed it as a movie. And I think that as a kid, I would have really disliked it because I just hadn't grown an affinity for the grotesque yet. Um,

it was something that I was still scared of. But watching it now where I can see a movie like Getle Juice and know that it is like objectively beautiful, that it is objectively like cinematic invention in something that other directors and creators were just not doing at the time, right like for the Virgins, Like by this point tim Burton had quit being being a Disney animator, right Like when he quit being an animator, he was like, no one's letting me do the kooky, spooky ship that I

want to do. Then he did frankn Weenie, and I think another thing that caught the you know, attention of Hollywood people. And then in came Beetlejuice, Peewee and Batman, which I think are an amazing triad to show off like what he does as a director, because there are three very different kind of takes on Tim Burton Suoki Spookies that Day. But it's also like very much um the standard trajectory for directors that still exist today, which

is you make the small passion project that gets people's attention. Um, then you make the somewhat larger movie the studio gives you some money it turns out to be a big hit than you do a superhero movie. Yeah, exam. And

after that you get to make whatever you want. And what's interesting about Beetle Juice specifically is like, of these three movies, Beetlejuice is the closest to Imburton's current and ever president aesthetic, right Like it is this like the most spooky, has the most claimation, has the most like kind of like haunted house, dead diva goth superpower kind of stuff. Um. On the on the service level. I mean, you and I were having a great time, like an

O'Hara of it all. Watching you watch the dinner party d O scene for the first time was very satisfying for me. I didn't you were gagged. You were gagged. I was gagged. But I didn't like. I didn't like that scene. I didn't like. I think that's a lie. I think you're revising history. You liked it? Well, can you do what? What were my mannerisms that would describe that you were my job? You were wrapped with attention. Your job was on the floor, My job was open.

But did I say anything? No, because you were so transfixed, because I was so transfixed. Okay, so if I'm being really real with you, I don't really want to go

there right away. But I actually was really distract and by the fact that they're singing like a Jamaican song and it's like an all white cast, and I'm like thinking about how Tim Burton thinks about these songs and how his movies through this whole era were like all white casts, and in his you know, defense of that, he talks about how like people of color just don't fit into a asthetic or whatever his words were, and I'm like, but actually they do like their sensibilities and

their culture and like where and like well yeah, and he's happy to steal from that, but not to at that, and he's happy to have a bunch of white people like lip sync songs that are like sung by white people, but like are like literally historically like black songs are like songs that like say shake shake, Senora or whatever.

And it's like, I don't know this, this is I'm like, honestly, like I I the reason I don't want to I didn't want to go into it is because it's such a not fun reaction to a movie that is ultimately actually very entertaining and inventive and good. And there are a lot of things that I like about Tim Burton. And yet because I guess this is what I'm taking responsibility for for the Virgins, I think I went into the viewing experience of Beetlejuice already feeling like I didn't

like Tim Burton. Well, because when we started watching the movie, you were literally reading an article about Tim Burton being racist. I would not look up from it to watch the movie. No, no no, no, that was just in the first five minutes. I was just the first five minutes I did watch you did you did kind of set yourself up there. No, But the thing is that would have been the case

even even if I hadn't read that article. I know that I was coming into that experience with a net distaste for Timber and as someone who used to be obsessed with him. And I think that, you know, and I understand the distaste. I think all of the things that you're saying are true, and that I am biased because I mean am white, So I'm like, I'm always biased by that and be his movies were extremely important to my understanding of my own, you know, sensibilities as

a child. Yeah, And I don't necessarily feel like me bringing up my reaction to that scene is like, is what makes this movie like problematic or cancelable or whatever? That's like not really what I'm trying to say. It was just like my pure naked reaction. And I kind of just tried. I tried to like go back and think, like, what would you be thinking about this if you had watched it in the early nineties instead, Like what would your reaction? I think they would have just been scared.

I think I would have been scared. Yeah, I don't. I think I would have latched onto maybe Gina Davis's character went on a writer's character. But Catherine O'Hara, No, yeah, I would have No, that's true, that's true. I would have loved Katherine Slay of the Millennium. Yeah, she really did that. She really did that. But um, this was not the only Tim Burton film that Katherine O'Hara did. Also, she is the voice of Sally in The Nightmare Before Christmas.

Oh my god, I forgot that she did that, that was her moment. But yeah, um, but I don't think she's been in any of his other films. And yeah, there's a couple of people obviously that Tim Burton has worked with again and again there's some people who are

only in a few films. And then well there's kind of really only one person, which is Helena Bottom Carter, who's been in everything he's ever made because because they know, because Johnny Depp has done Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Edward Scissor Hands, Sweeney Todd, Alice in Wonderland, Okay Dark, Yeah,

so I think yeah, and Helena was married to him. Also, have you ever heard the story that they um lived in houses next story to each other and there was a tunnel that went underneath the ground that connected them. I've heard that we should probably fact check that, but it is my ideal relation. It is also my ideal relationship. But then, yeah, there are some people like Winona only did two movies. She did Beetle Juice and Edwards is

her hands. And I feel like maybe unless you are Tim Burton's partner, if you're a woman, you age out of being his muse rather quickly, because as we've seen, Tim Burton is obsessed with this ingenue figure. There's always some bitch in his movie with big gass eyes, anywaist, she's usually blonde or very dark hair. No, she's definitely always They're actually like archetypes where it is the same

length long blonde like wavy curly hair. But then you have Winona and Beetle Juice and she has dark hair. But then she does have the blonde hair and Edwards is her hand. That's what I'm Yeah, I don't think that Winona and Beetle Juice fits the moment, but she does. I think that throughout all of his films, we have this supple virgin, all innocent, just on the cusp of adolescence. Girl.

And you noticed you noticed this when we were watching last night, because we were watching Sleepy Hollow, which Christina Ricci plays this character, but miawasa Kasa Kazakowski or whatever. And Alison Wonderland is that girl, the girl from Sweeney This, you know the Songbird Greenvench showeber Joanna is that in Sweeney Todd Um And then there is um Spella heath Coat and Dark Shadows. Yeah, and it's just like it's amazing that Timberton's like I mean, it's just I don't know,

it's just like kind of um creepy. It's kind of creepy, isn't ye the same? It's like it's t it's creepy, but it's not surprising. It's almost boring. It's like creepy on the level that like Quentin Tarantino always has these scenes about like feet, you know what I mean, Like that is like what it makes me think of um. But but you know what, I am grateful that it launched Winona's career because then because of because we have Wona. It was so funny. We were watching um as we

were watching Beetle Juice from some angles. I was like, I was like, oh my god, who looks exactly like Millie Bobby Brown? And you were like, no, no, no, Millie Bobby Brown looks like Winona. Like she was the blueprint for the ooky spooky girl, which I think is so smart. Um, she is all I wanted to be.

I also thought it was very funny last night when you were trying to figure out why Lydia Diets is the only one in Beetle Juice who can see the ghosts and you decided it's just because she's I mean, she literally says she is looking in the handbook and says, don't see the strange and unusual. And she famously says, I myself am strange and unusual. So yeah, she's just a golf Also, I love our producer Phoebe pointed out that Beetlejuice is at its core film about gentrification and displaced.

The displacement. Yeah, honestly, I wish that we as ghosts could go back and haunt the gent frying populations of like you know, four Green or whatever. But like I was the gentrifier. Yeah, I know, I know, Yeah I was, I was as well, when we're talking about like other things that are recurring themes in like Timberton movies, I feel like we saw a lot of those between the double feature that we had last night in Sleepy Hollow and Beetlejuice. Sleepy Hollow is one of my favorites. It

came out so I was eleven years old. I was like, it was exactly the right time for me for that movie. You know, it's a little bit more adult than the other stuff he was making at the time. Um spooky vibes. There's witches in it. As I told you last night, I used to have an action figure of the Witch character, which so stupid. When you squeezed her, the snakes would pop out of her eyes and her mouth, and I just she was my most prized possession. She was your

most prized Like. I also got an action figure of Ichabod Crane and I was like, what am I Johnny Depp version or a disnal version or the Johnny version. I was like, what the fund am I going to do with him? Yeah? His his eyes don't pop out. And I also got the headless horseman who came with a horse, and I was like, I want the horse. I don't really care. Well, here's just want the witch and the horse. That's it. Wait, let's get into it.

The headless Horseman, unbeknownst to me, was played by Christopher walking And I said, and I have to say, Christopher Watkins character selection across time and space is untouchable, is so perfect, And it is so Christopher walk In and like there what he what? The characters he chooses to play are simultaneously predictable and yet perfectly in his ether. Also, I revealed to you last night that he may or may not have killed Natalie Wood, which I had no idea.

Did you know this, Phoebe, that Christopher Walkin has maybe killed Natalie Wood? Okay, will you explain this? Yes, Natalie Wood drowned on a boat and no one knows how she died. And Christopher Walkin was on the boat, one of three people on this boat. I don't know how many people, not that many people on the boat. But Christopher Walkin was another thing that you didn't know, was you? It took you an hour until I mentioned it for you to realize that that was a young Alec Baldwin

in Beetlejuice. I had no idea and let me say he has a fat ass. He does. He has a juicy as a juicy juicy ass. Listen, we don't support Alec Baldwin or his wife or his wife and they're like twenty five children about the woman that he killed on the set of that movie. Um, but that is

really really hot in Beetle Juice. But honestly, actually, now that we're like panning out a little bit, like the fact that Timber is so comfortable working with like an Alec bald Went or a Johnny Depp, I think it's very telling of the people he might find in his circle. And the fact that these a lot of I think a lot of his films are produced by Scott Rudan. I think there are some there are some connections here Tim Burton in Hollywood suck. Yeah. Wow, I really cracked

the case on that one. This is what the people got, the people. Someone please clip this out and the peabodies please. Okay, so it must be okay, shut up, Okay, I need to want Okay, Yes I did. I did fall asleep halfway through the movie. And when I woke you up to tell you I was leaving, you went that was so good? Did I really would you always would you

always do. And when we watch something and you fall asleep, you go, that was so good, and then you and then you're and then yeah, and then you try to get me to stay and hang out and I'm like, you're sleeping. I was like saying, hang please, let's hang out, let's sing out. Um okay. But here's what I do remember actually that I do remember thinking that it was pretty flawlessly gorgeous, like I remember beautiful. I remember thinking it was beautiful. I thought it costumes, my god, Christina's

waste and her wigs and for Nanda Richardson. Yeah, so many Harry Potter actors for one movie and for nine did not feel dated at all, Like felt like fully it's a very classic story, very classic story, like I one of the oldest American myths. Yeah, and we were attracted. We were attracted to Christopher Lee, who plays one of the judges, because he is and when he came on screen, I was like, look theself. He also plays an angry

priest in The Corpse Bride. I think and I love actually that priests are like um uh villains in his his films and stuff. That's dad in um Sleepy Hollow is a priest who put it, finds out his wife Johnny Depp's mother is a witch, and puts her in an iron maiden and kills her. Yeah, I I thought that was pretty pretty disgusting but beautiful. Like I guess the first time I ever understood when an iron maiden was. It was also the first time I understood what an

iron maiden was. Um, last night that is. But yeah, watching Sleepy Hollow like I did, I was kind of like, Um, I couldn't stop thinking about the thing that you noticed about this, like long haired, blonde virgin archetype and the fact that Johnny Depp is thirty six in this movie and Christina Reggi is the actors actors, but the actress thirty six and Christina Reriggi is eighteen. And I was like Tim Burton when of his way to cast like this, you know what also is And I'm not defending it again,

but also that's Hollywood. That's Hollywood. Sure, it's like old decrepit man and baby girl. He didn't look decrepit. I literally thought he was in his twenties. I literally thought

he was in his twenties. He looks really young. But he um, you know, just just just to get it out of the way, I must say that though he is very Though Johnny Depp is very um cute in in Sleepy Hollow, he is his hottest in the movie Choke a Lot, which I did finally watch over the talking no no, no no, no, we're we're not We're gonna a lot is a Tim Burton felm shock a lot must be this is not an episode about Johnny deppell it's no. But I have to say no, no, no, no,

let me say let me say this yes and no no, but I must say Johnny Depp was excruciatingly fine in Chook a Lot. Like he was. I dare anyone, anyone with a with a feminist perspective to watch Choko a Lot and tell me that Johnny Depp is not fine. No, I don't want to tell Amber heard that. But he is so sexy and okay, great, are you one of his bots? Now about you know about like Amber heard?

My body tells, wait wait wait wait wait wait, Actually this is a really good this is a really good tangent, because not if it's about Choke a Lot, Come on, this is this is this is um I do think that, um, there is something to be said about a cultural attachment in the present day to Johnny Depp and Tim Burton's part to play in that right, because he's he's looped into our childhoods in this way that is very hard

to extricate ourselves from. Because he was both because of this and because of Pirates of the Carabee, in which we talked about a couple of episodes ago. Um, he was everywhere and I was, um, you know, admittedly like a bandwagon Timberton fan, because I didn't have access to culture, you know, when he came out so to so to speak, and so of the closet of the when I when I can't, when I when he whatever, when I started conducing timbers ever sucked and fucked. No, I think he's

really homophobic. Yeah, I think he's really I'm not joking. I think that he is really retro retro homophobic, like fire and Brimstone homophobics, not like not not not even like I don't care what they do. I just don't want to see it. It's like he's actively like I

don't want to see it, and you're going to hell. Yeah, And I think he thinks I think his kind of issue is really the poop poo in the butthole thing, because like I've never been it's not he's all like, there's never been any queerness and anything He's ever well, let's be clear, there has been rampant queerness and gayness in his films, but not of his design. Yes, and and and that's the thing is, like we were watching Beetle Juice and there's this faggot character who is almost

almost explicitly fag faget. Yeah, oh no, they like they say it it coded like something about your kind or whatever. But like again, it's like a homophobic remark. Like I think that Timberton is like explicitly you know in the musical Beetle Juice. So you know how in the movie Beetle Juice keeps trying to hook up with Gina Davis. In the musical they have it be the Alec Baldwin character. Oh I love that. That's a nice little subversion. I

love that. Um. So, like on that note, as I was saying, like I was a Bandwagon fan, so by the time I started to love Timberton, he was starting to sell out. So um, and what do you define as him selling out. Well, it's funny because his career started because he felt there was no place for him in Hollywood. And when Hollywood started to give him vehicles for his ookie spooky um aesthetic, and they understood how that was like marketable and that there was like, you know,

an audience for this. He was making films that, like I think a lot of timber and stance. He as really amazing and untouchable, like Beetlejuice or Batman. And then as he got more and more successful and created UM things that were more truly just for commercial success and not for the art that UM people saw the quality of us work declins, like Alison wonder For me, that was Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Alice in Wonderland.

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory was two thousand five, Alison Wonderland was two thousand and ten, so they weren't that close. But um, I saw both of those movies in theaters. I thought Charlie and the Chocolate Factor was actually pretty good when I watched it, like I thought, I remember really enjoying it. Unfortunately, I will always be a Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory Truther. Yeah, I mean I don't think they. I think Jean Wilder Forever. Obviously they're

going to be compared. But I do think Tim Burton made something that was uniquely his own. I remember really like by that time, I was a full blown stand so I think my experience of the film was maybe a little tainted. But I do think it um is em nomatic of something that he does really well, which is um show us how much he can push a really dark edge UM into a children's film, like this is a textual children's firm. But like Rolled Dahl, you know,

was um. His source material was always sanitized for movies, right, Like his books were way darker than what the movies made them out to me not always look at the Witches. The Witches is one of the movies that scared me the most when I was a kid. I but the but the book is even I would say, yeah, that the movie is a tried and true, very dark adaptation,

but I still think the book is darker. It is darker in the way it ends because the in the end of the book The Witches, Um, they talked about how the boy is going to die in a couple of years because he's a mouse, um, and the movie ends with a happy ending with him getting turned back

into a human. Yeah. I honestly, Um, I don't know why my brain is jumping to this, but I'm thinking a lot just about like childhood and how like there is this weird kind of childhood corruption and childhood trauma narrative that flows through a lot of his movies, right, like what happened to Tim Burton as a kid, Like because when you think about his dog died with Alison Wonderland Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. But I think Alison Wonderland is like Frankie wanted to make it and they

hired him to do Sweeney Todd. Yeah, that's true. That's true with Sweeney Todd, with that movie, Perelli's Helper and also um, Joanna are these like archetypes that come in and out of Tim Burton's movies where we have a child that is being corrupted by people in their life that are sometimes pedophilic, which I think is the case

of Joanna's dad. Well, Joanna's dad who is you know, um the judge wants to marry her, right yeah, and then we all and then also just like this child who has been pushed over the edge and then murders someone. I what do you think that is? Like? I think it's kind of like what what like? I mean, I don't know that that that that exactly? Well, I guess there's a pervy kind of through line in some of

his films. Yeah, well, I think when you have a male director, and this is something that I think about a lot with people like Ryan Murphy, When you have someone who only makes art about youth and young people, what's that about? What trauma are you working through? When is Ryan Murphy going to get over high school? When is Tim Burton going to get over his childhood? Is such a good way of putting it, because I do think that in this era of Tim Burton, why didn't

he at some point go make an adult movie? Like he had all of the blank checks that he like available to cash, that he could have done that. But clearly this is just what he's interested in doing, is making movies about childhood and you know, adolescence and you know these kming of age stories. Why is he so stuck on it? And We're Sweet Todd is an adult movie? I would say that his film's got progressively more child life. He's only done a few things like Mars Attacks, you know,

is an adult movie. Yeah, but it also there are several character point of view characters who were children, and I think he's always in anything he does is going to find that point of view to look from. Even the next thing that he's doing is he's um executive producing the New Wednesday Show for Netflix, which about Wednesday Adams,

which looks which looks really fun. I'm excited about it. Um, But again he just I think this when he's dead one day and we look back at the entirety of his career, this will be one of the things we pulled out is that this was a man who made movies about youth and how scary being young could be. And maybe the horror and the spookiness that he was drawn to was a way of making literal how terrifying

it is to be a child. Yeah, which I appreciate, right, Like we've discussed James and the Giant Peach before, which I think he was only like a tangential producer on or directed by Henry Selick who worked on the Nightmare before Christmas. Okay, okay, so that all the connection the connections are there, and I think James and the Giant Peach is another film that really exemplifies the thing you just kind of crystallized about childhood and what that may

be meant to Tim Burton. But I don't know. I think that when we to your to your point, like when he dies, I'll be curious to know what we still think of him as a director and if he still has a chance to contribute something to the culture that is as impactful as what he released in the you know, nineties. There are a lot of detractions to be made about his work, Like, as we already touched on briefly, he is a person who only makes movies

about white people. Yeah, which is UM kind of kind of funny sometimes, Like I think that UM for the Virgins if you don't know, Like a Bustle interview like five six years ago, UM interviewed him and asked him specifically about how his films only have white people in them, and he said, um, nowadays, he's like, nowadays people are talking more about it, but he said, um, things either

call for things or they don't. I remember back when I was a child watching The Brady Bunch and they started to get all politically correct, which is a term politically correct is something that Tim Burton says frequently, which I think is very telling about the type of person he is. UM. And then he says, like, okay, they have let's have an Asian child and a black a

black UM. I used to get more offended by that than just I grew up watching black sploitation movies and I didn't say there should be more white people in these movies, which is and and it just ins He's like the reverse racism, you know, literally yeah, and like you know, it's it's a false equivalent. I mean, we don't have to explain why it's wrong, but it is

like a false equivalency. Right. Like black exploitation films were created as like a political statement to combat the eraser of black people from films, Tim Burton's movies are not a political statement to provide more whiteness into the culture, right he What he's trying to say, I think is that this is his aesthetic. Right. Aesthetic is a word that comes up a lot and describing the whiteness of

his film. And because this is what he's comfortable in, He's saying, this is the world that I live in, which is honestly, Like if he wants to say this is the world that I live in, which I don't think. I don't know if he said that, but like, this is the world that I want to live in. This is the world that I do live in. It's clearly the world that he sees, the world he's imagined. It is clearly his perfect world. Yes, that's what you do as a director is create this like idealized version of

the world to make your little stories in. Yes. And it's like your films are not reclamation of white culture. Your films are like retention of white comfort, right like you are if you're saying this is the real world you live in, what you are telling us is that you don't have any friends of color or like queer friends.

You know what I mean. I mean, I was watching the end of um Sleepy Hollow, which you were asleep during last night, and Christina Ricci's character, who's supposed to be, you know, so pure, but she is so white, she's glowing and per lessons. You know, he loves she she is. It's just so clear what he considers to be, you know, the um, the archetype, the ideal version of woman of womanhood of white womanhood, of whiteness, of just what it

is to be a person. Look at like the self insert he puts in all of his movies, which is Johnny Depp, who is like the whitest man possible. Yeah, and and I and hit and almost like a a perversion of whiteness, right, Like, because there are reports that Johnny Depp's Willy Wonka was inspired by Michael Jackson. Have you heard this? Um? No, but that makes sense. It makes too much gross. It's really gross, but also feels in the line of what we were saying earlier about

like childhood corruption, like things like that. It's like why it's like something that timber and keeps like latching onto I don't know. And then we um, there's the oggy boggie of it all. You were reading about last night, something I had you were describing to me. I had never heard about that, like oggie boogie was essentially like a slur used to describe jazz musician Cab Callaway, and that the ugg boogie man is kind of a a Cab Calloway reference. Right. He's a very he's a very racist. Um.

You know. Caricature, Yeah, caricature and I think that it's I think that him and then Samuel L. Jackson in Um, the Miss Peregrine's Like Orphanage whatever the funk movie that was, are the only two black people to have ever had roles in a Timberton film, which is not great, but it does have a great Florence and the machine song on the soundtrack. Oh does it really? Um? I okay,

so like I on it. But anyways, you know, I don't want to harp on like the timber and main problematic of it all because we've heard it all before. But I do think that his failure to see, truly see the world around him is part of the reason he's no longer relevant as a creator, Like he truly has not made anything relevant since Charlie and the Chalk Factory.

I think because I think Alice in the wonder Alice in Wonderland, where I think it is his highest grossest grossing film, was a critical flop, right or like, at the very least all of his stands did not like it. Yeah.

I think kind of what the thing is is that now we live in a world old, we live in a post tim Burton world where there are a lot of creators who were influenced by him and went on to make things in the same kind of you know, aesthetic vain or with the same tone, but they were people of color, queer people who created their work with diversity and inclusion in mind because that was their worldview.

So now we we don't need this one man in his singular vision because the vision is kind of outdated, and the next generation of people that who he inspired, who like they definitely owe a debt to Um, are making the work that he just never could make, and

they're doing it better, doing it better than he is currently. Yes, exactly in that same vein of what you were just talking about, Um, Jordan Peel's making this kind of Tim Burton esque claimation called Wendel and wild Um that I think is going to be a part of this legacy of creators that you're talking about about. It there's there's a trans character who's played by a transactor in it.

Oh cool, that's awesome. And I also know that like this, I think this Wednesday series honestly, even though Tim Burton is a part of it, um, he's not like the person behind it, am I right about? Yeah, it's kind of like a Tim Burton presents. Yeah, but it's an all Latin story, so I'll be interested to see, you know, how far that's get that gets pushed and if this is something that is you know, inspired by timber and

but not like created by Tim Burton. Um, but I'm probably He's probably the executive producer, so I'm sure his handprints are all over it stylistically, especially because it seems like it's more in the y A genre space. Um, it'll be pretty you know, diverse YEA and inclusive. And the trailer looks good. It looks like, Yeah, it looks fun. I'm excited to watch it. Yeah. Um. I like Jenna Ortiga, who is in literally everything, Wait, what else is she in?

She was in the Babysitter movie, she was in the New Scream, she was in X, she was in the second season of You. She's just popping up everywhere. But this is her first big starring role. Should we talk about like our Timber and Blind spots, like the movies we haven't seen, like just to like acknowledge for the versions that we like we haven't seen Edwood, which we haven't seen Edward, one of us more critically acclaimed movies. Question Mark. I think it's one of his more serious movies.

Sara Jessica Parker's in it, I believe what. And she's also in Mars Attacks, which I love. She she's in Mars Attacks. In Mars Attacks and she gets her head put on a dog's body. Oh my god, I've seen that on the cover of Mars Attacks. Her head is like literally on the covers. I have like an imprinted memory of being in Blackbuster. I think other than those and big guys, I've seen everything you've we haven't seen that.

I haven't seen Frank and Weene or Dumbo. No, yeah, I haven't seen Dumbo Dumbo, or you've seen Miss Peregrine's Home for a Peculiar Children. Yeah, what was that like? I don't really remember. I'm sure Eva Green was great because Ava Green is great and everything. She's so fun. In Dark Shadows, Um, Chloe Grace Morette is a werewolf in it. That's all I need to know. Have you seen her carry? I have with Julianne Moore. I think it would maybe ruined carry for me. You wouldn't. You

wouldn't like it because maybe a traditionalist. But for our Stephen King episode, it's good. I think you have you seen the original carry Okay, so you can't talk to me about that. We we've never have you ever seen Planet of the Apes? No, I've never seen Planet of the Apes. But you know what, I have seen a lot of Jack Skellington Sally porn. Oh my god, why I wonder if there's Jack Skellington gay porn. Let's see, there has to be, Okay, Jack Skellington getting sucked by

Uggie Boogie. Oh no, Jack Skellington. Okay, there's he's Oh look look at the hot Jack O lantern. Wow, his dick is huge. That's very hot. There's Jack Skellington. I think he's with the slender Man. He's fucking the slender Man. Who's the slender Man? It's an urban legend. Oh, here's one where he's got Santa tied up and is tickling his feet. Oh my god, sort of non consensually, but also Santa seems to be into Maybe the non consensual part is part of the kank um. Oh yeah, there's

just a lot of Jack and Sally porn. Oh, and then here's thick Jack Skellington. I like that. I'm into it. What fuck. We'll be back next week with two episodes, you know, continuing our October double Slam weekly um whatever, Double penetration UM. On Tuesday we have a special episode all about the Rocky Horror Picture Show, and then on Thursday an episode devoted to the Master of Murder Mystery Mayhem,

Stephen King herself. So, um, tell us what your favorite Tim Burton movie is or if you have any hot takes about him. Tell us what you're being for Halloween. Tag us and all your spooky content. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or rating on Spotify. It really helps us a lot. I am your co host Rose Damn You. You can find me anywhere on social at Rose Damn You. And I'm Fran Toronto. You can find me at Frands Squish Co anywhere you want. Also d m us at Like a Virgin nine. You

can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen. Like a Virgin is an I Heeart radio production our producers Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane Chitch and Nikki Eatur. Until next week. This is Halloween, This Halloween, Oh my god, Okay, we have to go. That is this is Halloween.