Millions for the LGBT

is kind of polarizing. Like I personally just started watching um in the pandemic, and so before that moment, I really did not want to consume any Housewives content at all. So if you have an aversion to it, maybe this conversation will key you into why we love it so much. Yeah, and we are going to go back to the beginning and see how it all started, because this is like a virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm Rose, damn you, and I'm fran Toronto. Um. Listen,

New York Virgins, we are coming for you. This is an extra special announcement we are having a live show on June at three dollar Bill in Brooklyn. Rose, I'm so excited. Yes, we're doing our first live event. It's gonna be so fun. We are going to have performers and secret special guests and thrills, chills, ur audience participation, splash zones. There will be a splash zone. Heartbreak will

feel good in a place like this. Producer Phoebe will be there and might be you know, um, playing a very stage manager, or she might be slinging you merch. She might be you know, wrangling drag queens. Who knows what will happen. So New York Virgins, Tri State Area virgins, come spend a couple hours with us. It's going to be a really fun time and we want you to be there at our first ever live show during Pride. You can get tickets um with the link in the

bio of our burner. That's like a Virgin. I'm sure that Rose and I will put the ticket link in our own personal bios as well. Lots of different bios. You can find the ticket link in. Just find the ticket link and buy a ticket and we will see you there. Um, And there's gonna be a little bit of a party after, so we'll get to hang with you. How are you doing, Franny, Well, I mean, I'm exhausted. I had a I had a very very bad travel day on Saturday, that I do you really went through

it this weekend? It was nightmarish and I hope I never experienced that again. But what did you do this weekend? Rose? I feel like you had a quite a the opposite weekend and that it was very lax and luxurious. I did it was? I Um. I rented a cabin in Big Bear for a couple of days. I wanted to do a little writing retreat Vaca moment, and I just spent my whole trip outside writing on the porch, going in the hot tub. And then I also did like watch a lot of TV at night after I was

you know, done writing for the day. Then I let myself watch TV and read Star Wars fan fiction, my like my current vice. Yeah. I finally started watching Obi Wan Kenobi, which I'm really enjoying the season. And you know, I don't know if you know this, but the Star

Wars fandom on the internet is really tomic. It's like and the racism got to such a fever pitch that you and McGregor had to like make a video statement about it and say like, if you are racist, you are not a Star Wars fan, and like get out, we did. We didn't know that happened. That's so it's cool. It's it's good to see Disney and like the talent

finally making a stand in this fandom. But it's still really upsetting and a lot and so many people are like hate this show, and I think it's really great and it really has me back on my you and McGregor bullshit, my Star Wars bullshit. The prequels are really like what I grew up with, and I do love that era of Star Wars, so this is really hitting a sweet spot for me. I've never gotten into any sort of Star Wars original series, Like the whole Baby

Yoda thing. I was like, even that couldn't make me watch the show. We're gonna need to do a Star Wars episode virgins. If you would like to hear that, let us know. I would like that, but I don't want to watch like the New Ones. I only want to watch the the the O G three. Okay, well, another thing that I watched when I was in Big Bear was the entire first season of the Sex Lives

of College Girls. Did you watch that when it was on? No. All I remember is that every one told me to watch The Sex Lives of College Girls when it came out, because they were like, oh my god, it's surprisingly good. And I was like, the fact that like so many people in a row are telling me it's quote unquote surprisingly good, I think is a little bit of a red flag, but I'm gonna be I'm gonna be the

latest person to tell you it is surprisingly good. The pilot is pretty bad in terms of how it's written, like it's very much hello fellow teenagers, like writers trying to replicate what they think teenagers talk like, but that that gets less and less as the show goes on, and there were several moments where I laughed out loud watching it. One of the lead girls is Polly and challom Timothy shallowmy sister, and she does kind of look

like Timothy shallowme with boobs. What huge boobs, huge jugs, jugs. I feel like I've seen a meme you've you posted of Timothy with huge jugs, and that's based when his sister looks like, oh my god, well, I mean gender goals honestly, Um, but it's good. Yeah, I honestly need respite after finally watching The Staircase, um, which I told you very adamantly that I wasn't going to watch, but that you and that when you did watch it this weekend, you said you weren't going to talk about it on

the pod. Okay. So here's the thing about me is that, um, sometimes I don't no, no, no, sometimes I don't know what I'm talking about. And when I said I wasn't going to watch The Staircase, I thought you were talking about the Mormon Show with Andrew Garfield, which I did also don't watch that. I loved it, but you will not.

I watched the pilot of that of the Andrew Garfield Show, and let me tell you, I'm very happy that Andrew Garfield has found kind of playing the same person over and over again, which is kind of like it's kind of like it's kind of like no, no, it's actually like nice. It's like very nice conservative white I who is insecure and not gay for some reason, like the kind of gay. But that's the thing is like all of it because but are very explicitly not gay, and

you're like, why just be gay? But but I do ship him with his detective partner on the show. Yeah, the detective partner energy. Um, but to the staircase, to the point of the staircase. You know, it's very good. Um, it is like very gay, it's very bigeable, and I'm not sure I would want to watch it if I if I wasn't binging. Sometimes it is a little background TV because of like, you know, a lot of exposition

and a lot of like stuff like that. Um. It does also sometimes feel like, you know, the undoing if it was directed by Ariastar, But I I really you know what I mean. But but it's good, Like it's a really good and if you haven't watched it, it's basically just like Joanie Janie Janie, Tony collect Joni Mitchell falls down the scene Toni Collette falls down a staircase.

She's extremely mangled and looks as if she's like murdered, and the husband says he didn't do it, And you're kind of following this story trying to figure out if she actually fell or if she was murdered, and I am not. And it's and it's based and it's based off of a document It's based off a true story, and dom yes, Fran, I didn't know that, Fran, Yes, it's it's this is It's based off of a true story and a documentary about that story, which is kind

of what started the entire modern true crime genre. So and so that's why I really liked the show. I mean, outside of the great performances and the drama of it all, I think it's a really interesting take on what that true crime genre is looking back to the thing that created it. And what I love so much about Tony Collette in it is that in these pieces of media true crime, you know, where there's like some some dead white woman, um that that person is usually incredibly abstracted

and like really absent from the narrative. And like that's the thing with Kathleen in terms of like the reality of this crime is like she's very unknowable because she died and like most of the drama around her life happened after she was dead, And this show, I think does an amazing job of making her a real person, like obviously a fictionalized version of that, but I think it's kind of inserting this woman back into her own

story it. Honestly, she Tony is so fucking captivating and everything she does, but oh my god, honey in the kitchen for Prestige TV, in the name of God, let me she deserves Emmys. She deserves accomplishments and rim jobs. Accomplishments and rim jobs. And let me tell you also, what Tony has to do physically with her body in this show is so extremely difficult to do as an actor.

And yet Tony is so good at dying on screen, and she has had to do this in countless movies, and it has drawn such a new respect for for me. I've always loved Tony, but it's like such a new respect for me to realize that is as an actor, it's actually extremely psychologically and physically difficult to do what she does over and over again. And I hope that this is like, you know, another award that she can win,

because she does. But she also what I appreciate her as an actor is that she doesn't get trapped in it. I think there was like, um, a video going around on Twitter and then maybe also on TikTok of some of someone asking her if she does method acting and she was like, no, I think that's pretty stupid, UM, which I love, Like you can just be good at

pretending and she really is exactly that's exactly it. Um. But anyways, UM that I've that's basically all have been consuming, aside from the new B sides that were released from Scissa's control. Have you listened to that yet? I have not? Um, how are they? I I mean, they're there. It's Scissa, so it's always going to be like sublime and perfect and beautiful and heartbreaking. UM. Some of these songs were

released on SoundCloud last year by her. UM. One of them is called Jody, but on SoundCloud it was called Jodie Foster. And that is actually my favorite of the new releases. I've been having it on repeat in my head, like literally, like the refrain plays in my head all the time, all day every day. It's like that good. But I think I just the release is just so messy to me because like where is her album? And what was with these SoundCloud songs? And like why are

these SoundCloud songs? All of a sudden, A part of what I feel is like a absolutely perfect album that doesn't need to be touched at all, you know what I mean? Like when Bowen on our pod. Um, if you haven't listened to Bowen's episode our Taylor Swift's Red episode,

it's very good. But when Bowen said on our pod that Control is the blue of our generation, like that really is the t Like I feel like Control to me the same way Blue does just encapsulates our generation perfectly with cultural references that we understand, with a heartbreak that's like very relatable, with like really really like like poetic, like true poetry in the lyricism that is sometimes abstract

and sometimes crystal clear. Like that is so blue. And Joanie would never you know, release Blue and then like release a bunch of B sides like like it would just kind of taint the purity of something that is so perfect. And I think Control perfect, um. I mean actually, like Joonie did release B sides um like a few years ago actually, but like that doesn't count. That's like fifty years, you know what I mean. And they were really good B sides, but Joe Rogan did take them

away from us. I love a B side. But also, you know, part of making art is editing and is about being intentional about what what you leave in the work you're making. And what you take out of it. And part of the reason why some of the most iconic albums of all time are the way they are is because of those choices that were made. And like, especially if you listen to an album, you know, from beginning to end, like you're listening to it the way that the artist wanted you to, and like that is

intentional in and of itself. So like, yes, it's always great to get some B sides, but I still find myself thinking of, you know, the original as as the that's the thing that I'm going to want to go back to. Yeah. Same, And it's like I'm not mad at says there anything. It's just like I just I think I would have been very happy for any of these tracks to be released as singles, Like I didn't think that they need to be tacked onto something that

is so untouchable and Scissa is so untouchable to me. Um, but anyways, those are those that's my music take for the week. Yeah, I will need to listen to that. I also, um, Lucky Lee just released a new album that I need to listen to. So hopefully I'll have some updated music thoughts next week. While we're on the music portion. Have you listened to Christina's Spanish language album? I have not. It's apparently going to be a series of Spanish language albums question Mark. I don't actually have

the intel on this, but um, it's really good. I mean a lot of it is like very generic, but like to hear Christina in this genre which is sometimes like like straight up mariachi, like soul like ballad mariachi is like so good. Um, and it's kind of giving what I wish Omar Apollo gave. And honestly, her Spanish like isn't that bad? Like I I feel like, you know, she it's it's not perfect, but she commits to it.

And I think that's something that I really appreciated, is that when you've ascended to the level as high as Christina, like, it's it's a pretty major play to say I'm going to do a Spanish language album, So you know, I'm glad she's doing it. Good for her, Good for her? Do you want to talk about her dick? It's kind of baity to me, but maybe Christina pegs her husband just I have a lot of doubts, but like, can't it just be a gag that she like wore a strap on. I mean, do we have to plummet for

a deeper meaning? Unfortunately with me, I have no choice but to intellectualize and overprocess everything. However, as you're saying it, you know, maybe you're right. Um, I will tell you that I saw a movie last night that you would there would be absolutely no way for you to extract any kind of deeper meaning from, which is Jurassic World. I don't even know the newest Jurassic World movie, um,

which you know. The whole thing about it is that it's reuniting all of the stars of the original Jurassic Park, Laura Dern, Jeff Goldbloom, and Sam Neil. And it's crazy to watch a two and a half hour Jurassic Park movie in which the dinosaurs are not even really the main feature of the movie. So the movie do I even want to know? The last movie ended with dinosaurs now being out in the world, and I thought that would be the premise of this movie, like, that's really interesting,

what's the world like when dinosaurs live among us? Instead, it takes a sharp turn away from that and becomes about this like tech pharmaceutical company who have used um like dinosaur DNA to make these crazy locusts that are like eating all of the world crops, And so the movie weirdly becomes about rehistoric but but bugs and corporate espionage obviously, and it's just really weird. It was very long.

It's also a lot about clones, because there's a clone girl, and and like I just the point of Jurassic Park is the dinosaurs. It is not. It's yes, it's about the humans trying to survive the dinosaurs, but it's about dinosaurs. So to watch a movie in which the dinosaurs are like a secondary thing, What babe, what are we doing here? Makes no sense to me? And that's infuriating because I really do love Jurassic Parks so much. The last movie I do too. It's a little bit of a flop. Yeah,

and I still had a good time. There were some good moments. There's um there's a scene Bryce Stallas Howard honestly was one of the best parts of the movie, her and Laura Dern And there's a scene where Bryce Stallice Howard is crawling into a swamp to get away from this dinosaur, and it actually was probably the best part of the movie. It was incredibly tense, um. And that's that's the kind of thing you want when you

are watching a Jurassic Park movie. You want to see people trying to not get eaten or people getting eaten by dinosaurs. Yeah, exactly, And there was not there was not enough of that. And also, you know, hate Chris Pratt um or Crisp Crisp Ratt as he is referred to ums. But you know, Laura Dern looked amazing, was amazing. I just wish she hadn't spent most of her time in the film talking about bugs. And the bugs were really great. I don't want to hear about the fucking bugs.

That sounds stupid. Get the get the bug off the screen. I'm not watching that speaking of something that I wanted off the screen. This week, I'm not going to recap the legendary finale that aired because they just have too many thoughts on it. But girl, the finale opens and the judges you know, aren't coming out to present, you know, they always present their kind of look or whatever. And

DeShawn goes today's episode. He didn't say it like this, but basically was like and today's episode is brought to you by Dolce and Gabbana, and every single look that you see on the runway today is by Dolce and Gabbana.

All the judges were Dolce, the winning the winning teams wore Dolce and every single talent portion that they had, and the winners got a prize and like mentorship from Dulce and Gabbana, which means they're trying to buy back They're like credibility with marginalized audiences, essentially, because there has been over a decade long's worth of like offenses from Dolce and Gabana specifically that have been very raised cyst against Chinese people, very racist against Black people, like very

like exploitative, homophobic, even like every kind of um as Travel would say, and as Travel would say, all the opias and isms, um how that's so gross. That's gross and makes me feel really bad that, like where's the integrity, Like where's the person who should have said, um no, we're not taking your fucking money. You know, Deshaun always wears Dolce custom Dolce looks on the show, so I

wasn't hugely surprised that appeared. There was like a little bit of a relationship there, but like I'll bet you, I bet you Law made it happen. Like Law has talked about how he still works with Dolce and stuff um on in interviews before me is making like a very concentrated, almost like pop cultural blitz. Greup right now, because I don't know if you were really aware of this, but they dressed the entire Courtney Kardashian Travis Barker way

in a way. Yeah, they did all of the looks for all the Kardashians for the whole wedding weekend in a way where it almost looked like a campaign. So they're really like they are trying to use their money to just buy their way back into pop culture's good graces, and it's work. I mean, they're never going to go away. I mean in fashion specifically, they are an iconic fashion house.

That's it's that's always been true. So you know, it's not surprising to me that a lot of people are going to cross the lines and go ahead and wear it. But it's like, yeah, it kind of sucks for everyone in the show though, because I'll bet you there are people on the show that really hated that and didn't want to do it, but they have no say, because it means they don't have a job. But like Jamila like that with everything she stands for. I mean, like, girl,

we're rooting for you. But I was like, what, get the dull j off the screen. I'm not watching that. But you know which faggot I was watching? As I said before, and as I said, I think last episode, I'm having like a You and McGregor renaissance. And when I watched Down with Love with our friend La La last week, she asked if I'd ever seen I Love You Philip Morris, and I hadn't. Have you seen it? I watched it like when it came out ages ago. I watched it for the first time this weekend, and

love it's pretty funny. It is now my it's like my favorite gay love story and like that kind of joking but also kind of not um if I don't know how I missed it when it first came out came out in two thousand nine, but um, I didn't know, like it's based on a true story. I thought the romance between you and and Jim Carey was so sweet and like adorable, the scene where they're dancing together in their prison cell, and I loved how just fucking gay. It's really gay, like it was, It's really gay. And

you know what, it reminded me. It reminded me that gay people are so much more interesting than straight every single time. And also this, you know, for those at home being like, but I was played by two straight people. First of all, allegedly. Second of all, we we have.

First of all, I don't. Second of all, like the rose doom you rule is very important, and the rose doom you rule goes as follows, which is, if a straight man plays gay in anything, he has to take it up the butt in the first five minutes of the thing, and in this movie, it is taken up the butt very quickly. I would not say that that's you said that to me. You said that to me

very crystal clear. I think we were talking. We were we were talking about in the first five minutes of Halls, literally that which also stars in the first five minutes of Halls, in which also stars you and McGregor, he gets fucked in the ass within the first minutes. And so I do believe, you know what, I believe that if an actor has at one point played a role in which they got fucked in the ass, on screen. It's okay for them to play gay forever. Just kidding,

but I love you. Philip Morris two thousand nine. Two nine was like a different time. This is back when you know, men were still playing trans women and like representation whatever. But it's just like a fun gay movie. It's a really sweet, weird, funny gay love story and I had a great time watching it, and it gets something that is like my favorite thing in gay ship, which is gay people that are despicable, like gay people that are more Yes, my favorite favorite people are bad.

Gay people can be bad, and I love a movie that acknowledges that queer people can be imperfect, be gay,

do exactly exactly exactly. When we started being friends. There's a lot of things that I pressured you into engaging with, and I do think that Housewives is one of Housewives is maybe the most concrete example, because there are a lot of people in my life telling me to watch Housewives and I did not listen to them until a one Rose Dambu was like, no, no, no, real deal, this is what you should do, and you gave me

a lot of really good um. I think, honestly, Housewives is a very intimidating franchise to overcome because there's so much of it, and you gave me, you know, an idea of how to start, and I think that was what was really helped. Yes, I I think if you were going to start a Housewives journey and listen, I'm not anyone out there that they need to do that because it is something that that will rule your life

and if not ruined, yes, rule and ruined. But if you are interested, it is I think important to figure out which franchise you will vibe with the most, and then from there, what is the right season or era of that franchise to start with, because I don't think it's true that you can just like not for everyone at least, I don't think it's true that you should

pick a season and start at the beginning. Although I will say I think to me, the best Housewives franchises are ones that I can go back to the first season and it's good from the beginning. But I know that it's not true with every city. Yeah, and and Rose and I are going to talk about, you know, uh, the season's the franchises that we do watch and like,

what makes them unique or thematically interesting or whatever. But I do think that the first season of New York is exactly what you described, just this sublime, completely perfect kind of era of TV that you can watch over and over again. I think the first four seasons of New York are just like a there's a lot of ways to do it, but like I think, if you watched the first four seasons of Seasons of New York, it's like a perfect crash pad into the world that

is real Housewives. Yes, and there have been multiple eras of Real Housewives of New York. I think there have been eras like of the franchise in and of itself, Like there was a time when these shows were very like small and scrappy and like about these people's real lives, and then they crossed a certain threshold where these women were famous because they were housewives, but in a way that the show never really addressed because it would be

breaking the four wall. And now we're in an era of the fourth wall has been broken a little bit, and I think every iteration of housewives, every city deals with that in its own ways. I think probably the way we see it happening now the most is when um, a cast member has some kind of real life legal drama and that's how the real world becomes part of real housewives. Um. So it's it's just very interesting to see how this has all changed. And you know, like

this is an entire like area of pop culture. There have been books written about it. There's so many Housewives podcasts and like and ours is really trying to not be one. We're sorry for all the Housewives recaps, like, look, but I think we do like we do pretty um spare sparely, sparingly. Obviously, right now, the main focus of

Housewives is Beverley Hills. I think like Beverly Hills is in a way the crown jewel of housewives because I think it has I think New York has seated that spot and Beverly Hills is the one that yeah, she

she is the girl. Um and it's certainly the one airing right now that people seem to be the most interested in, also largely because of the real life and I think New York and Beverly Hills are kind of there are two examples of Housewives that are very different in like execution, but like, I think they are kind of the best of the best in terms of cast members, in terms of drama in terms of like seasons, long longevity of like what makes the show is good. But

I think to kind of differential. I think it's important to differentiate them because, first of all, the girls in Beverly Hills make the girls in New York look like like very like you know, just like poor almost, but like the New York girls are socialites, and they're very grounded in the reality of being socialites, of getting very drunk out at night and like engaging in antics that way and finding drama that way. York. New York is simply more fun and Beverly Hills is more Yeah, New

York is a little more human. New York has a little more wit. I think a kind of classic New York wit is injected in the show, specifically with Bethany, who is kind of the narrator of the act of the whole show for all the seasons that she's in UM and I think she really is such a stronghold for what that show stands for. And if you don't know who Bethany is, she's just kind of like, I mean, I don't even know how to describe her. She's kind of just a psychotic, like amazing clap clapbacker who is.

She's very good at crystallizing exactly what's going on and

dictating it. There's there's really no bullshit. And that's why Bethany is so great on how Sizes because she says exactly what she thinks at all, and she's so relatable but all so an egomaniac, so it makes her like very manic and like make bad decisions sometimes we're like in Beverly Hills, it's Lisa vander Pump right, you know, and her objectivity compared to like Bethany's is like opulence, not being relatable, being very like proper and having a

kind of air about her that's all about like class elitism, pompousness. Like I think that I don't know. I think those two as like archetypes for each franchise, like set you up for what to expect from like the rest of

the show. Well, it's interesting how every franchise has someone who is kind of clearly the protagonist um or like the show is centered around them and their social circle, and it's usually like that the show started that way and then kind of spun out as new cast members came in and out, um like rounding out, what I would say is the trio of the best Housewives iterations

would be Atlanta. I think Atlanta, New York, and Beverly Hills are top three, and so like, in the early days of Atlanta, I would say, you know, Nini was really the protagonist of the show, and I do think that Candy eventually became that, although at times it was also kind of cynthia Um. But then like you go and look at Beverly Hills, and like Kyle has always been the protagonist of Beverly Hills and like continues to

be even though she's fucking boring. But you know, in the early seasons, everything was very much from her point of view, and she was the one who had family drama because her sister was on the show. Her other sister is on the show now, And that is when Housewives is at its best, is when it's not um drama between two people who like have become best friends for TV and like it's being fabricated between them, but real life, interpersonal drama that is finding its way on

a TV because there are cameras around. Like That's that's one reason why I think the early seasons of New Jersey are so good. Is because and continue to be is because a lot of the people on the show are related, and so you're seeing like real family ship

playing out on this. You know this under these insane you know, Truman show circumstances, you stole my goddamn house um a Beverly Hills reference to To go back to the Nini of it all, it must be said that Nini helped Housewives as an as an entire franchise transcend in the culture. Like her as a meme queen and her completely like irreplicable ability to grab attention from literally any scene is like brought Housewives as a whole to another level, which is why Nini is the highest paid

house I've in the history of Housewives. And it's also why nine when she had her very public like breakup with Bravo, she said to Andy, no one knew who you were until they knew who I was, so you better put some respect on my name. And I was like, period, Mama, it's true. And you know what I realized recently is that um, like in the way that the that the fourth wall is being broken, that's even now started to apply to Andy too, because he only ever showed up

for the reunions. And in the last episode I saw of Beverly Hills the current season, because I'm still behind, they were showing pictures from his baby shower, and that's not something that would have happened a couple of seasons ago. They would not have referenced him outside of the row. The breaking of the fourth wall is very interesting to me, but I think that the times that it does happen,

I do, it does become more riveting to me. Like, I mean, I think a little bit about um, the second season of Beverly Hills, which is, you know, one of the hardest seasons to watch but also one of the most dramatic. We're in Taylor Armstrong's but yes, which again, like this is another way that like Housewives like transcends through culture. And then we say things that we didn't even know come from Housewives, which I didn't know and now we said it comes from the second season of

Beverly Hills. Ala Camille Grammar, who used to be one of my favorite housewives of all time until she had such a very public um meltdown about how much she loves Brent Kavanaugh. Um. But anyways, I was gonna say when Taylor Armstrong is very corrupt and physically and emotionally abusive husband commits suicide. It was like the breaking up the fourth wall to them, Max, and you know, what happens in that season is very unfortunate. Yet I remember as a viewer being like, oh my god, and I

felt milarly with Denise's season. Um when Bravo, Bravo, Bravo, bravo, which if you don't know the context for that, there's an iconic moment where Denise basically is like she's basically over filming, and she says Bravo, Bravo, Bravo, as if like saying bravo means that you are no, you can't,

you can't use the footage anymore. Um. And apparently that comes that originates from Lisa vander Pump who used to do it in early seasons of Beverly Hills when she was like in her makeup trailer and she wasn't ready for camera. She'd be like, no, no, no, you can't film yet. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo. UM. But Denise, who had only been on the show for like two seasons, thinks that she's good enough to use it when the girls

in actuality apparently never never break character like that. What do you think of the breaking character of at all? Do you think they're playing characters or do you think they're playing themselves or both? How I think that there is a spectrum of it. There are some people who I absolutely believe cannot not be who they are, Like someone like Teresa Jude Ice, who is you would look at the things she does and you would think, like, this is this, This is like so crazy that no

one could make this up. And I really do believe that she is just that kind of insane person. And like she you know, she flipped the table in the first season of Real Housewives of New Jersey, Like that's just who she is. I'm sure as the years have gone by she has learned that it is better for her to give into her impulses because it makes good TV. Like I think that becomes a slippery slope. So I

do think that. I'm sure there are some people who come on the show, and it's usually I think the you know, friends of or like New Housewives who like only last season, who come on and think they can do a bit, play a character, and it doesn't work out because we like the Housewives who really are seemed genuine in even if that's like in a bad way.

But I would say that for the most part, everyone is performing a heightened version of themselves, and like this is something we've talked about, like in our own lives, like something that we do on a much smaller scale on social media. These women are doing on a much bigger scale on TV. And I think, like I think Ramona to me is the most crystal clear example of someone who literally cannot be anything other than herself, Like she is so horrible and says such flagrantly racist things

on camera. Um. Mary Cosby of Salt Lake is also like that, where it's like this woman does not care if the cameras are here or not. She's not performing this is she is just an asshole. Honestly. I think Kim Richards is kind of that Kathy at Kathy Hilton as well. I think they're they're very themselves, And I think Kim is very kind of the opposite of Kyle, who is very aware of the cameras, very aware of strategy how she appears on camera. Um, but Kyle is

very good at it. She's good at making herself feel human. And you know, the door and the girl next door. Like she thinks of herself as the girl next door. She thinks she's like the beating heart of the show. I think she's kind of a boring cast member. But she is boring, but I think that's part of I think that's part of what works is she's always involved in the drama, but she but not enough to the

point where she really burns bridges. The only time we saw that was with her and Lisa vander Pump which and look who won, Like Kyle was the one who stayed on the show and Lisa left. Although you know you can you can argue about whether or not that's winning, Like maybe Lisa once she got to leave, she got to be the one who left, like on her terms. I think Lisa really captured what it means to be a great housewife. I think she has a lot of qualities.

What do you think makes like a good housewife? Someone who is aware that they're on television in both a good way in a bad way, Like someone who knows that they're on TV so they are amping things up, and also someone who knows they're on TV and so they're not going to be like an absolute total fucking mess, Like I want you to forget the cameras are there sometimes, but like for the most part, you know, you know that they're they're like, um, lou Anne, Yes, lu Anetomy

is lou Antony is God to your housewife because so much of what she does on camera is performative. She is a meme of herself, but she doesn't let that get in the way of being a mess. Like we've seen Luanne fall down, We've seen two of her marriages fall apart, We've seen her like go to prison, deal with her drinking problems, Like she knows the value of being a mess on TV, and she I think tries to fix it all the time. And when she tries

to fix it, she makes it worse. And I and and a lot of times, you know, when it's not very dark, when it's like more in the funny periods, like it is like it's it's what makes her, it's what makes housewives in general so fun most of the time, which is like camp in its purest form, camp that's

like not aware of itself. And Luanne has no idea that when she says eggs a la France, like she doesn't know that what she's saying is ridiculous, but she's saying it for the camera, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, it's so And you know, in recent years, I think she has been more aware of that. Like I think her whole you know, Cabaret moment is her leaning into the camp of it all and playing up the character.

But you know, she's still she still has like the the fact that she's a fucking nightmare to balance that out every day of my life. I regret not seeing the Countess in Friends Live. I I I know we if it comes back, we need to think she's going to come back. She'll come back with with Sonia, Sonia doing a dance where her top accidentally falls off or whatever, because now she and Sonja are doing a spinoff show that's like the simple that sounds insane but also is

a perfect show idea. We have to talk about the fact that the best part of any Housewive season is when they trip. It's the girls trip, and which is why Ultimate Girls Trip the show was so good because it combined that like vacation thing with also what we've been talking about, like the breaking the fourth aspect and Housewives All Stars version yes, but there have been some truly iconic trips, and obviously the best one ever Scary Scary Island, I mean debatable scary Island. Yeah, I think

it's scary Island. What do you think is better? I mean, oh god, there the Beverly Hills takes some really trip

the Berkshires. There's a lot of Berkshire's episodes, sure, but but Kelly ben Simone versus Bethany Go to Sleep Like Kelly ben Simone is someone who you absolutely know that she is a total fucking psycho and does not even realize that there are cameras really, like, I mean a lot of them are really like a lot of the housewives, especially in New York Housewives like operate at like a fourth grade reading level, Like they really really cannot Like

Kelly really like does herself dirty over and over again because like a lot of times. And something that's kind of hard to watch about the show sometimes and specific to Kelly is that she's so clearly doesn't know what's going on sometimes, like she like is actually having such a hard time following why she's mad about something or justifying She has no idea how to debate, She has no idea how to back in argument, like they just

have no idea. A lot of these housewives, like Kelly, have no idea how to navigate what should be extremely simple moments of conflict resolution in human relationships. Um. And because none of them are in therapy. Well, actually some of the New York girls are in therapy um these days, because like therapy has you know, become a little more mains mainstream quote unquote. But like in early seasons, like no house in early seasons of the show, no housewives

are in therapy, and it makes them all really really messy. Um. I'd be curious to know actually what your thoughts, what your thoughts are about Housewives when it started in the golden seasons of New York, Beverly Hills and Atlanta, and

then what it feels like now. Yeah. I do think a lot of its centers around the fact that they weren't they weren't famous, and there wasn't the culture around Bravo yet where they were doing Watch what Happens Live and they were like doing like spawn, and that there was a whole culture and economy around Housewives. So it was really all about the show itself and they were not celebrities outside of it, and so the drama was

very much focused on what happened on the show. And now I think the drama plays out in so many different ways, Like these girls are fighting on social media, they're like going to prison, they're like, you know, in huge legal battles like Erica Jayne or like gen Shaw. They're getting like magazine covers, or you know, like they're they're having successes that like are in the real world.

It does kind of feel like Housewives is like the reality show version of the m c U. And like at the beginning, there were a couple independent movies that people liked watching, and now it is a sprawling multiverse that has become this cultural monolith, and that is like it is. It is like actually impossible to not engage

with at least some of it. And honestly, like on the topic of like then and now that some the part of this multiverse that I'm really not pleased with and yet I cannot stop talking about because it is very interesting to me is the way that for the first time in Housewives history, they're all talking about racism, you know what I mean, Because the show, every single franchise has been almost agnostic of like any sort of discussion of like race or like justice or like you know,

like there, it's very antithetical to woke culture. And you can tell that the producers produce around politics and produce around the fact that they're all Republicans, right, and and and cast around them because for a very long time, the different franchises were exactly exactly And now they're realizing that diversity is a thing, um, and they're casting diversely, and that of course means that these women are going

to have conversations about it. I honestly think it started with UM Carol's Seasons of New York, which took which were you know, the Trump election era, UM, the era where luanded blackface and also some offensive things about indigenous people in this country and then that all and then that went into like diverse casting. Then it went into

you know, the twenties that were in now UM. And it's really hard to watch these women have these conversations because the majority of them have no freaking idea what they're talking about. And I don't really want to hear them talk about it because a lot of them are like disseminating misinformation. Yeah, and like I mean, there's like a there's a problematic part of this in that a lot a lot of what is so great about Housewives is the escapism of it, and so I feel bad

when when one of those moments happens. I'm like, oh, like, this is not what I want out of the show, Like I don't want to see what's happening in the real world being reflected here. But like, I guess it should be like these women have so much insane privilege and that you know that should be um disrupted, Um, they should have to reckon with it. But it's it's like not, it's never going to be a real house

live show. Is not the right circumstances to get a psychopath like Ramona Singer to reckon with the fact that

she's racist. And I still don't understand why Ramona has a job like to this day, like women have been fired for things that are way worse than what Ramona does on an episode by episode basis something I'll also say that's really ugly about how these women handle conversations like this is now they're figuring out how much they can weaponize social media or weaponize woke culture to prove points or to get what they want. I'm waiting into

very murky territories here. So Jen Shaw, is this really really horrible cast member of Salt Lake City, a franchise you don't watch yet. All you need to know is that she is like Ramona level horrible destructive. I know, I know who she is. I watched I watched half of the first season. Okay, she's a bad person. She's a bad person to a lot of people and to

everyone in her life. And now she has had a huge legal battle that everyone knows about, where she's basically embezzled, you know, a billion dollars from like disabled people, old people, just like m vulnerable vulnerable classes of people, and so on the reunion of the most recent season, she went out of her way so many times to say, and I shoot you not. This is not an exaggeration. She was like, if you don't believe me, you don't support

women of color. That's literally what this woman is is saying. And she like, it's it's actually that rudimentary and baseline

stupid um. She is like flattening like what it means to be a brown person in this country to her advantage to like circumnavigate responsibility around something really horrible that she did that she is not copying to and like, you know, everything that happened to her family in the wake of all this, every that happened to her kids and her husband, like that I'm taking out of this, Like that is horrible and no one should ever go

through it. But like to just say, point blank, like support me because I'm a brown person, like come on. And then Jenny also in this season, did a version of the same thing, and it's just like I I actually like don't want to hear these women use the word gaslighting anymore, which you haven't watched the most recent

of Beverly Hills. But Kyle tries to use the word gaslighting at least three different times, and each time she used it and probably has no idea it has no idea, and she but she knows the cultural power of a word like gaslighting and how it transcends on Twitter, and so she's able to say it knowing that there will be people who will support her or jen Sha or whoever blindly because they've been you know, conditioned to support people that support woke culture. So to speed, it's crazy.

If you were a housewife, what would your tagline be maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's childhood trauma, it's it's it's work, it's work being workshops. What about you. I may not be a real woman, but I am a real housewife. No, no, no, no, no no no, I do think. I do think. The all time best one is Bethany saying I may not be a housewife, but I am real. Like, that's so good. Bethany is so good at doing this specific thing, and I hope that she comes back. Although have you have you been

fed her on tickto God? I have the algorithm has not finished me in that way. Every every time she comes up, it's like a scare because she, I guess, is like trying to be a beauty TikToker, and so it's always her really close to the screen putting on I makeup, and it's really frightening. I mean, I love Bethany, but yeah, no, she really cannot use social media to save her life, not properly. I love Bethany too, but I love her on Housewives all the other things she's

tried to do. You know, be strong is great. I'm like, you know what, that's great. She's a humanitarian whatever. But like that Hrio Max show she did was kind of dumb. Her podcast. I listened to one episode of it. I was like, Nope, I say, I like her very specifically in the context of housewives, and that's where I want, know what, And I do hope that that is actually true for me for every housewife. To this day, I

do not follow a single real housewife on Instagram, not one. Oh. I follow a couple of them, but it is very specific. I do not give out a housewives follow unless I'm truly committed. I think the only housewives I currently follow our lou Ann and Sonja. I used to follow Sonja, but but I unfollowed. Yeah, I just I only want them in the show. Also, just side no um that

that housewive tagline, I may not be a housewife? Was that the season where there was a season of New York where every single cast member either was not a wife or didn't have a house because remember like Tinsley like was homeless for a while, and then well that's the thing. That's the thing with New York especially is that all of them are poor. Now, yes, that's why this most recent season of New York was such a flop and it's like you're gonna go to the Turkish

baths them. It's all fake, like they're all they all have like judgments against them and they're not good at stoking conflict anymore. And then they put in Ebony k Willie Ms, who is trying to ground them all in a reality but just it just didn't work. And I'm I'm I'm just I'm glad that New York is being

rebooted a little. It'll be interesting to see how that happens, because I don't I don't know if you kind of like read in depth the interview with Andy Cohen about what they're doing for the virgins, what what for the virgins? They are doing I think two new versions of House Lives of New York, which is one will be rebooted with a different cast and then one will be kind

of like a spinoff with the the Legacy stars. And I don't know, maybe that's the Sonja and Luanne show, Maybe that's the spot that that's filling, or maybe there will be another thing. It's a really good solved. I mean, you have probably said, like if not to me on this show, like fire all of them, like you really wanted them all gone. Yeah, I want them all gone. I want to start from scratch, Start from scratch. Are you watching any of the new franchises? Have you watched

Dubai It? No, I want to watch Dubai I love Salt Lake City slash Salt Lake City honestly came very close to dethroning Beverly Hills as my favorite franchise. It was that good and remains that good. But I think it needs a little more time before it becomes that iconic. You know, um, what about you? I I haven't watched

any of the newer ones. You know, Potomac seems like the big, the biggest like blind spot for me because I really have tried, and I just can't find someone in it to latch onto to make me feel invested. And I've tried like the different ways people told me, like, oh, skip the first season, skip the second season, But every time I've tried it just like haven't found the right entry point. So I say start with season five. And the thing with Housewives is I already watched way too

much Housewives. I really don't need to watch more Housewives. But you know, the next time I'm home in Florida and I'm at my mom's house and there's a marathon on TV, I absolutely will just tune in. And that's the great thing about housewives is you can just plug in at really any moment and there will always be a recap. You will always get immediately like what's going on?

Who hates who? And that is beautiful. Nicki Minaje mediating the Potomic reunion was so amazing and it exceeded expectations. It was so lack of doodle, like not what I expected to happen. Um, but damn, they really committed to that and she was so good. I think, you know, if I were to give prescriptions for Potomac or honestly just all the franchises that I watch, obviously you need to watch all of Salt Lake City, and I think it's really easy to get into it, um for any

virgin to Salt Lake starting from episode one. With Potomac, I think from episode five, and then watch the current, which I think is only three seasons total. Um. That is, when there's a fight that happens between Monique and Candice, that sets a whole new wave of drama and motion, and I think establishes the relationships between all the characters very easily. Um, New York, I think it's watched the first four, then I think I don't know, and then

you get into Sonya. I think Sonia has like season five, or say, but I think you skipped the seasons with Heather. Yes, you only watch New York when Bethany's on it. That's really what it is. Yes, that is what it is. Um, but don't watch the Bethany Carroll season that has the Trump election, because that one is the worst most triggering episode of TV I have ever watched, is when they're waiting for the results of the two six election. I don't ever want to see it or think about it again. No,

it was fucked up. You know, I will say the woman with the wooden leg that was not a Bethany season. Oh my god. Yeah. The only thing fake about me is this a Viva dresser, her wooden leg a viva But really, like I mean to be full circle about this, Like, I do think that the first couple of seasons of Beverly Hills are some of the best reality TV housewives period. Also,

the first couple of seasons of Atlanta are incredible. But you know what, Like, I'm not going to say if you are not a person who watches Housewives again, like, I do not want to give you this disease that we have, but I hope that at least if you have decided to contract it, that these recommendations may help you do it in a safe way. This is harm reduction. Will you back next week with a discussion on the Devilwares product with comedian Nori Read so excited about that.

Make sure you're wearing your Cerulean Chanel boots and tell us what you want us to talk about next, whether it's a movie, book, TV show, cultural phenomenon we want to hear from you. You can call to confess at three to three pennance. That's three to three seven three six two six to three. You can also slide into our d M s at like a virgin fore tag us comment. Please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps us out, even if it's you know,

like a little bit sassy. I'm your co host Rose Damn You, and you can find me at Rose Damn You anywhere you want on social media, and I'm Fran. You can find me at France Squishco wherever you want on social media. Please subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts, and leave us a rating on Spotify or review on Apple Podcasts. Like a Virgin is an I Heart Radio production our producers Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Just Crane Chitch and

Nikki Eatour until next week, See you later, Virgins. Bravo, Bravo, Bravo.