MGMT Owned My Hole

at least don't have been scrubbed from the Internet. And we are going to talk about what is Inde sleeves um, the aesthetics and media that exemplified it, how it, you know, was bread and spread on tumbler, and how it's returning today and maybe a slightly different form because this is like a virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's tapes, Timber's dam you and I'm Fran Toronto. So you know, brush off your Shin's record, put on put on your Santy gold T shirt. I loves. I

forgot to talk about that. I loved well, I guess the Shins. Also, Shin's is like early because you know, the first time I heard the Shins was in Garden State. Obviously. Wait wait wait wait wait wait okay, okay, okay, wait, maybe we should we talk about the gardens. No, the Garden States, Like two thousand four, it was pre eminent, Yes, devastating news. Today, I believe I have seen my last movie as an AMC STUBBORNSTA. You are officially canceling your

membership when you moved to New York. Is that what's happening? You're a band abandoning our principle. I'm in the wake. It's not like I can just drive over to the Grove, or drive over to AMC Sunset five, or drive over to Universal CityWalk slash Marguerita Villamporium and see a movie. But if there was a way to go, I'm glad it was seeing Ticket to Parents. Where are you glad? Though? How did you feel when we locked out of this movie together? Um? I did have a really good time,

even though it's not a good movie. Okay, if you had a really good time, name one thing that happened in the movie that you enjoyed that you remember. Julia Roberts. No, no no, no, no, no, no, no no, no no no, no,

specifically no, that is the specific thing I enjoyed. Julia Roberts because she is the last movie star and has endless charisma and every time she was on screen, I was having fun, even in a bad movie like like notting Hill, which I watched for the first time and since it first came out recently and it's not a good movie. But Julia Roberts well, I mean in that movie, she at least has Hugh Grant to work with um And in this movie, I think George Clooney was not

the best scene partner for her. But Julie Roberts, anytime she was on screen, I was happy to be there. Yeah, I mean, obviously their star power is like gonna get you know, butts into seats in that theater. I think a lot of like the appeal obviously is just like us waiting for Julia Roberts to like laugh like that

honestly totally for me. Her huge amounts. And the thing is she her character is like a bitch in this which I love, Like I love Julia in an era where she gets to be a kind of like mean or uptight character, but she doesn't as a character laugh until like halfway through the movie, Like we're not really satiated until like far into the movie where she finally cracks and she has like a little bit of like joy in her character because they know the power of of her laugh and the power of the power of

going to Bali And and discovering yourself. Honestly, like this wascovery because for anyone, for anyone who hasn't seen the trailer, in which basically the whole movie story of the film

is given away. It's about Julia Roberts and George Clooney, who like fell in love very young, had a child, were married for five years, had an extremely bitter divorce, and then have to come back together when their daughter, after graduating from college, decides to get married and Bali and moved there Forever and their daughters played by Caitlin Deaver from Book Smart, and she was great in Book Smart and was really bad in this, mostly because I

think she didn't have a character. Her only character trait was that she wore the same pair of thin gold hoops in every scene. They looked like they were from Forever twenty one, and it just was such a weird styling choice and was extremely distracting for me. I don't know.

I think the movie could have been much better if either um there were a lot more parallels between Julia and George's problems and the couple's problems so that you were more invested in them, and like it used the language of film to tell both stories simultaneously, or if they had just kind of cut the young people entirely and it was just Julia and George. Yeah, I mean, I just feel that there could have been more parallels between Julia Roberts character in this movie and Julia Roberts

character in a Prey Love where she also goes to Molly. Um. Really this by herself though? Yeah, but the thing is maybe on a journey of self. This really could have been a sequel. This maybe this is a sequel. Maybe this is the end of Elizabeth Gilbert's life after e Pray Love has happened and she is descending on Bolly to what is it her her the girl's fiance as a seaweed farmer. What the fuck? He has a seweed farmer who has a who has recently inked to deal

with Wait, that's actually real virgins, that's real. That is an actual line, That an actual point. He has also with whole foods. So his seaweed farm is and okay wait wait it's it's legitimized. And there's that when the when his home is introduced, this is a literal seaweed farmer. She wakes up and and she is in a resort.

She is in a five star resort that is revealed to be the kind you see on TikTok where like you sit up in bed and the oceans oceans in front of you, like try our birds chirping, and I'm like, I'm like what this is a seaweed farmer. And that's when he says, oh yeah, Jeff Bezos is lying in the coffers of like I'm just fill in cash like around like my map whatever. I'm just like So it was so funny. It was just a bizarre script. It

was very bizarre. Also, Caitlin Diaver's bestie is played by Billy Lord of American Horror Story Fame, and there's this one scene where she she's like a crazy party girl, like none none of the jokes about her land, but the people in the theater were loving her. But there's a scene where she George Clooney is like at the bar at the hotel at night because he can't sleep and he's having a drink and Kaylin Deaver comes up

to him. I'm like, Oh, great, they're gonna fuck. But then he starts telling this like sad story about how he and Julia Roberts broke up because their house burned down, and I'm like, did Julia Roberts Sadden on fire? Like I don't get where this is going? But then the scene ends without them fucking, and I'm just like, no, but like, in the in the world of who you're telling me these characters are, they would have and we

never learned more about the fire. It's so disorienting and also just like but yeah, totally, it felt a lot like them fucking was in the original script and they cut it for like decent. No, it was never. It

was never What is the point of that scene? Then they're like at a bar because because George has to expose himself emotionally and like it's literally just there so that he reveals that he actually loved him when she like she like slithers up to him like she is ready to fund Maybe it's just like the energy that maybe she kind of and it's projecting. It's us projecting, you would want totoing. I think that we were projected. Well, the vibe, the vibe was there, but that's not a

movie in which that would ever happen. This is a very sort of classic roum comm in so many ways, and the Julia Robert's part of it, at least I was able to enjoy. Otherwise, it's not a great movie. Do not rush to see it in the theater. If you really want to watch it, watch it when it's eventually on streaming, and like a week and a half. It's a great movie to stream because you can look at your phone for half the time and still have

the exact same experience of the movie. Yes, speaking of movies that are available to stream, Fran, you watched My Policeman, correct now that it's out on Amazon discussion Last week,

I did. I did watch watch My Policeman. I thought it was perfectly fine, And I think the reason I enjoyed what I watched is in large part because unfortunately, I am among the warm brained people that thinks that Harry Styles is really gorgeous and cute and adorable, and like I will watch him do anything, um even when he is very attractive. He's very attractive. But for me, I also, as I said last week, I really liked the movie and I went into it expecting to hate

it or at least just like be totally me about it. Um, But I really liked it. I think it's a very well made film first and foremost it was especially considering the sourceman too. I think it's a very good adaptation, even though you've never read the book. To me though, like Harry wasn't the thing about it that made it work for me, But I do think he was good in it. Wait, actually that's so okay. So here's what I'll clarify. That is actually so true, Like Harry doesn't

make the movie. That actor could actually be anyone, and like, well, I think that's because the character almost doesn't exist. So this film is actually about a woman who falls in love with a policeman who is gay, is in a relationship with a man who you know, runs an art museum, and they have this like very intense affair. The woman finds out the gay guy, goes to jail, and then there's this framing device of years later, the lover has had a stroke. The woman brings him into the home

because she feels guilty. The husband policeman wants nothing to

do with him. Blah blah blah. But what I wanted to say is that I think that Harry's character is almost like a cipher in a way, in that I don't really understand why these two people love him so much that they're willing to go through all this pain for him, And I feel like that almost is the reason why he has to be played by someone like Harry Styles, because you you need that shortcut of like, oh, this is one of the most famous people in the world.

Of course these people are like so madly in love with him, when in fact, like he's like a vessel for them both to pour their love into. Maryan because she like is a young woman who just wants to fall in love and here is a guy who like treats her very nicely and like is sensitive blah blah blah.

And then for Patrick, it's like he is a gay man in the fifties and his like opportunities to find someone to like love in this like small town seemed to be like few and far between, and like you find out he has a lover who's died, and so like the first chance he has to like love someone, he takes it, and like it almost doesn't matter who that person is for either of them, and yet he wrecks both of their lives. Yeah, and they wreck each

other's lives. Yeah. And actually, you you're kind of pointing out something that I kept thinking about that he really he's almost like an imaginary friend. Like he's almost like he's kind of like if the whole movie feels very epistolatory, right, she she's reading through the lover's diaries, and I think that's how the book is. Yeah, I could have guessed as much, you know, like Virgin's. Also, please note, this is not a really a romance. It's a drama, Okay.

That is it is a sad gay period draw. Yeah, and it's honestly there are three protagonists. Okay. So in a lot of ways, I really think this is Patrick's movie, and I think there's a couple of things that are like at war with that. Like I think in the way that this movie is being marketed it's Harry's movie. In the way that I, at least as um as

a viewer, experienced it, it is Patrick's movie. And then I think the framing of it is Marian's movie, which I think is part of the problem because she does something truly horrible and gets away with it In a way, and we're sort of like asked by the film to forgive her and see the if she's lived as this man's beard as like a fair trade for the truly awful thing that she did, and I I just like

don't accept that. Like she outd someone and had him sent to prison where he was brutalized, And this is kind of where we start talking about I think, like this whole genre of sad gay period films, Like what I didn't understand is what happened in the forty years between when Patrick was in prison and when he has the stroke and comes to live with them, Because like that's where I think the fatal flaw of this film, and I'm sure the book that it's based on really is,

is that are we supposed to believe that he had no other opportunity in his life to find a fulfilling romantic relationship in those forty years he was just out there waiting to have a stroke and be sent back to his lover who abandoned him and the woman who sent him to prison. Like why does this queer character's whole life have to revolve around this extremely painful thing

that happened to him? That is I think the failing of the story as it was written by Bethan Roberts in the novel, Like there's no imagination that this person could have gone off after this terrible experience and you know,

lived any kind of fulfilling life. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying to an extent, and like the kind of sad gay period drama has, like we've it's been explored, right, Like I don't want to be we need it anymore, Like I think we'll always need it, But like that that's why you I just think that the people who made this film should have been more selective about the source material they were adapting.

Like I would never read this book and be like, yeah, this is the gay story we gotta tell on screen. Like there are like so many different period dramas past and present to adapt from literary source material, hundreds and hundreds of stories that you could pick from, and you're like, I'm gonna do this one about the policeman. All I think I think it was a big publishing sensations. Of

course that's a reason. And then if I if I'm being generous, I think probably the way that you could think about it is like, well, okay, we're graduating to at least a sad gay period drama that ends on a hopeful note because spoiler alert, it ends with Marian leaving and Tom and Patrick seemingly you know, like finding

their way back to each other. Which no, but but but what I'm saying is that I think we understand that Hollywood is fucked up and that for a long time, the only way that queer stories have been allowed to exist in media is if queer people were punished at the end of them. That's you know, like the legacy

of the Hayze Code. But what I'm saying is like, if I'm thinking with my like Hollywood hat on, it's like, well, okay, we're going to keep making sad gay period dramas, but will at least let them be like kind of happy at the end, you know. I mean, I don't think it's a progression, but I do appreciate you giving credit to this story and like what it could what it could potentially offer the canon of like sad asked period dramas.

But to me, your wife of however many years, saying hey, it was me who fucked up your life and fucked up the life of your lover um ages and ages ago. Oh by the way, by I'm abandoning you with your ex lover, fuck you, and your ex lover is also catatonic and can can't even speak anymore, and you have to take care of him. That's not really a happy ending to me. So it's not like or in any degree, like in any form of progress and so like, and so you know, I just like thought that the movie

was like very indulgent in melodramatic sadness. And that's okay too, Like we it's okay to have sad movies. It's okay to have sad gay movies. But like, just as I said before, like it's not really adding anything to the cannon.

And so like when we look at the broke back Mountains of the world, right, even something like Call Me by Your Name or Carol or other period dramas that are like in the same breath of like gay dramas that we see as oscar Bite, Like all of these movies are beholden to their period, and therefore they have to like reconcile their straight relationship in order to have

their romance. And I would just love for queer romance on screen to be up against something instead of in spite of something, and like this true like wife archetype. We've seen this already. We've seen Michelle Williams do this, and and and Hathaway or whatever. We've seen like Alicia vik Candor do it. We've seen like so many different versions of this story where the queer person is some thing to deal with. Their queerness is something to deal with,

something to circumnavigate. It is an obstruction of the plot, and we, as the avatar of of the film, as the audience of the film, are working around that, right, and like I'm just over it. I'm like I really am. I'm being like so like kind of spicy about it, like I'm actually not that passion. I think it's I think it's very fair to have that critique and and it has been great to see in recent years, especially period pieces that have queerness in them, that don't treat

queerness as an obstacle. Like for some reason this had me thinking of our Flag means Death, which does this thing that a lot of contemporary period pieces are doing, which is that they include marginalized actors and characters and

stories about them. But like there are some things that do it, like Britain, in which like they just create this sort of like race utopia, and then in things like Our Flag Means Death, like there still is the acknowledgement of the historical context, but the periodtypical homophobia isn't used as an obstacle. It's the plot that is the obstacle.

And like I was just thinking about how at the end of the first season of Our Flag Means Death, there's an episode where the main character Steed goes back to his wife, and his wife is not an obstacle in him being in a relationship with the man he's in love with. It's his own doubt that is the obstacle. And in fact, his wife like wants him to be dead and like be out of her life and like essensibly like would love him to be off having gay

pirate adventures. Yeah, it's kind of why I really liked a leak of their own right, Like obviously the period was an obstacle frequently in the show, but like ultimately

they're up against like baseball. They're playing baseball games, like there's something that they can focus all their energies on that is like the primary thing to that for them to get around, and their romance is one of the many mechanisms that is kind of like moving this thing along, and like that's just like what I want to see

in like a futurity of like queer romance. And I obviously I feel um particularly cynical about ones that come out in this year of Our Lord two that are just doing the same thing that we've been doing since Broke Back Mountain. Like Harry is just doing something that every cisht celebrity does when their celebrity peaks and they're like, what's like the what is the next level of sisman

celebrity stardom? Oh, I'm gonna play gay to get an oscar like and I and I don't I really personally don't feel like Harry Styles is as sinister as like a lot of people make him out to be on like the queer bating like front or whatever. But like this movie is so obviously a pr move for awards attention that also allows Harry and his team to benefit from what will be the debilitating horny nous that his

fans experience watching this movie. Like like teen so there was I saw this movie in theaters and there was a group of Harry Styles fans sitting sitting in my row and they were very excited about mean girls going to go watch like a gay erotic barely I mean it's not that erotic, but like a kind of gay erotic where like Harry Styles is like the centerpiece of

like they are in a sedentary state of hormones. Like like that is all Harry Styles team is doing is like bombarding them, in undating fans with the horniest, most erotic possible Harry isms to make them into like just completely subjugated sedentary states. That so that like these fans can do whatever they want them to do. And I don't know, that to me is like a little sinister. I don't know. I think. I think when it comes down to for me is that this is a very

flawed trope. This is a very flawed thing that we see again and again being made the sad gay period drama But but the movie but but But at least I think this, if it has to exist, it was

made very well. Like one of the most effective scenes for me was when the older Tom and Marion go to the grocery store and they see the caregiver there with his boyfriend and Tom goes into his car and breaks down because he sees, you know, the progress that's been made, the life he could have lived, and like, yes, it's like more trauma porn, but it was one of the most emotionally effective moments for me. I mean, in the words of Harry Steles, it was a movie that

felt like a movie. It was a movie that felt like a movie. For sure. I have at many points in my life been involved in what I would say are sort of you know, like counter cultural movements. I have always been kind of like a punk girlly, you know. But I think it's interesting how at certain times in pop culture those subcultures have almost become the monoculture exactly. And I don't think there's any better example of that

than Indi Sleas. Yes, the movement of what's the era, would you say, like twenty early Like I would say maybe two thousand nine to two is like peak Indie Sleeves. And I think a good way to start this is to define what Indie Sleeves is, which will be you know, Harry, but we're going to get into it together, you know. Yes, Indie Sleeves is in attic It's a vibe it's um it's a punch line. It's a punchline. So the things that sort of I would say typify it are um,

you know, grunge, low fi counter culture. But it's this very specific counter culture that's through the lens of mass consumption. It's counterculture that you can buy at the mall, or

at least that's what it evolved into. Right. You have people that are on the ground floor of like Indie Slee's movements that are you know, the real kind of punk folks or low five folks who are popularizing things like Indie Sleece music or any sleep aesthetic so that they can be sold at urban outfitters, are American apparel UM. And then as you say, that becomes mass culture, right, it's like it's d I Y that became um bu. Why it also, you know, Indie slee is because it

started in two thousand nine. It's very specifically this post recession movement UM. And I believe the reason for that is because, as we said, like it started as this very d I Y aesthetics. So in the wake of the Great Recession, no one had any money, so it was this aesthetic that you could achieve with very little money because it was all about, you know, repurposing the

aesthetics of older eras. There was a lot of thrifting culture, like digging out your parents old vinyl and their old clothes. Rich people dressing poor, rich people dressing for But also it was the recession, so it was a lot of rich people who were poor. For the first time. I'm fascinated by the correlation between Indias and the recession, one that I had never thought about until you brought it up. Like it's all about money, baby, Like that's how everything happens.

In case the virgins at home are still kind of confused by what we're describing, maybe you and I could paint a picture of a quintessential Inde sleeves person, like what they're wearing, what they're listening to, where they go, like just a little baseline, like simple pictures. Yes, So I think to do that, we have to say a dirty word. Because hipster the two are so inextricably linked.

So when I think Indias, forget the word hipster. When I think India sleeves, I think of someone in a flannel shirt, yes, with those like black frame glasses or the like, the like Jeffrey Dahmer glasses. Okay, I'm seeing I'm also seeing maybe an American apparel circle scarf and an American apparel v neck. Yes, that purple that was only sold an American apparel A deep V, deep V

almost down to your belly. But okay, maybe they even have an American apparel pleated skirt that they've distressed themselves. And you know they had to buy two sizes up because American apparel is fatphobic. Yes, and they're obviously wearing Um Chuck tail con is Chuck Taylor. They're holding Um Doc Martin's, but like Chuck Taylor's, they're holding a coffee table book of Terry Richardson's photography and the specifically the Lady Gaga. Oh my god, I forgot about there. I know.

I discovered recently that my brother still owns it, and I didn't say anything to him. And Jeffrey, if you're listening to this podcast, Terry Richardson is canceled. Look, we all know that Terry Richardson's canceled. But one thing we have, like, let me tell you the aesthetic that Terry created, um like with his photography, we just you know, plagiarize over and over again and erase, erase his work in Life Forever,

which is lovely. Like, I'm glad that we have just kind of taken his aesthetic and made it into like nothing. And that is, you know, more than I think almost anything what has survived from Indy Sleeves. And later in an episode we'll talk about the Indy Sleeves revival that's currently happening. But I think more than anything, um, Indy

Sleeves is remembered as an aesthetic. Um. It's also I mean that we talked about the Terry richardson so it's like the flash photography party photos with water marks on them. People in the I mean Kanye West derogatory glasses with the slats. Oh my god, the slat glasses. Oh my god. I saw someone wearing those like a few months ago, and I was like, it's it's anything you could have bought on the street on St. Mark's place. I have

a question. Are skinny jeans coming back? Yes? Wait, that's disgusting. They are. That's bad. They are coming down St. Mark's. I got a tattoo on St. Mark's. And who hasn't gotten a tattoo on St. Mark's. I've gotten piercings on St. Mark's don't I've gotten I've gotten things sucked and fucked on St Mark's. It is probably my least favorite tattoo as well. But I did, I did. I mean, I fooled myself, Like I went into like a random shop and I showed them an image that I found on Tumblr.

Oh no, but I did ask the artist permission. Thank you for bringing up Tumbler, because we can't talk about Indy Sleeves without talking about Tumbler, which is truly where this movement, this aesthetic, this vibe um originated, festered, festered, and festered and grew, and I think really exemplifies the duality of Indie Sleeves, which was a movement that was about aesthetics and also about media consumption. And there was

nowhere where that was more present than on Tumbler. Because you were defined by your taste level, You were defined by the things that you liked and the things that

you repurposed and reblogged. It's almost as not to jump the gun on the thesis, but it's almost as if it was the pre eminent fan culture that exists today, speed fan culture totally, because there were these two factions on early Tumbler, which was the este side of Tumbler, which was like soft grunge blogs, remember those where it's like literally like an economy that was built off of gifts from the Virgin Suicide. Oh my god, Oh my god.

I definitely I'm pretty sure I got my Virgin Suicides soundtrack off of a live journal that I used exclusively to steal music. And yeah, So there was that holiesthetic side of Tumbler, which was you know, like those um like mood board esque type posts where it was like all different photos of things and quotes on things. That that was one side of Tumbler. And then there was the fandom side of Tumbler, which was like the fuck yeah blogs and the like early Marvel culture. And I mean,

I I hate, truly hate to bring this up. It feels apocalyptic super Hulack. I mean, this was the era of of super Hulack, of like the combination of all these nerdy interests and people finding a place where there were so many other people who were interested in those things and they combined and turned into this sort of

like Hydra esque monster. And so you have these two sides of the site battling you know the sides who like the like e d Um Tumbler, who wanted to like and like the pro Anna accounts, who wanted to just like reblog skinny girls in like various outfits. And then you have the ones who wanted to like write John Lock fan fiction. UM, and those two didn't always interact super well, do you know what super hu Luck is? No? I actually don't, Okay, I was trying to get gathered

from context clues and I actually still have no idea. Yeah, so this was a time. So who super hu Luck is the amalgamation of these three fandoms for Supernatural, the c W show Doctor Who, which which was kind of at its revival peak with David Tennant with David Tennant and Matt Smith of the Dragon Family, and Sherlock, the BBC series starring Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman, which had

combined to become this one sort of mega fandom. UM paying Tumbler's light bill of course, literally, I mean literally actually, like it's funny to think that the Internet was so young then, but it really was, like it really was. It was. I I don't know that. I guess it was Tumbler and like, um, the era of indy sleeves almost feels like when the Internet went to college. Oh I was in college. That's like crazy, that's actually a perfect way of um. Okay, wait, I never watched Sherlock,

Doctor Who or Supernatural? Did you watch any of those? I watched Sherlock, and I was a little I did did my toes, and by by my toes, I mean most of my legs maybe up to my waist. Um into into the fandom I have read, I have read some John Luck fan fiction. Sherlock was good in the beginning. It's homo social, right, It's like it's not homorotic, it's like very it's it's it's a little bit of both.

They they're so obviously into each other, and everyone on the show is constantly asking if there are a couple. It's like very explicit in the text. But there's so many no homo moments, and there was such a fervor for that, and like obviously this was like the beginning of Benedict cumber Batch Mania. But if this show happened today, like they would have just been a couple. But you know, this was still mid adds, so they had to be

not gay. And like Sherlock was maybe a sexual. Um god, the fan fiction for Sherlock must would like, you know, kill someone in hospice. Like. But the reason that they're what that the fervor was so huge was because this was a BBC show, so each series was only two or three episodes, and then there would be literal years between the series, so there was all this time for fans too spiral and write fan fiction and like create

fan works. It's actually very similar to there's this thing in Harry Potter fandom called the three year Summer, which is the time between the release of Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix because we had to wait longer for this book, so it ended up creating more fan content. I've never heard that before. Wow, that really was a long wait. Did you stay between which books?

Between Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix? Oh my od wait that's also I I can't believe I've never thought about this before, but Goblet of Fire is the hardest tonal pivot in J. K. Rolling's work. And then she's like, you have to wait three years? The three year summer is what they call it. It's giving Game of Thrones. Um, But so with Sherlock, um that kept happening. There would be these long stretches between the seasons.

Then the final season happened, and there are all of these John Locke which is John Watson and Sherlock shippers who are convinced that in the final series they're finally gonna become Cannon, They're finally going to be together. The final episodes happen, they are absolute ass. They suck. The show ends, but the shippers won't won't take it as fact because they believe that there's gonna be a secret final episode that's going to air the week after the

series finale. This girl should link up with the Galors because they are the Glors. It's like, it's just that's just what they've evolved into. Um that doesn't happen, And honestly, to this day, there are still people who think that there's a new Sherlock series is going to come out and fix all these problems. I would definitely suggest if you're interested in hearing more about this, to go watch um Sarah's D's YouTube video on the John Lock conspiracy.

It's very interesting. We have a lot of versions that that watch Sherlock or asked us to do Sherlock. I think we've gotten that suggestion more than once. But I would I would not. I would maybe watch the first season and that's it, like don't don't hurt yourself. It really the quality gets real bad um towards the later seasons.

But as I was saying, you know that Doctor Who Supernatural and also this was the very early years of the Marvel fandom, and all of those things came together in this perfect storm of fandom um as I said, festering specific specifically, and then that faction was kind of at war with the aesthetic side of Tumbler, which was much more I won't say shallow, but it was a lot. I mean, it was how a lot of people like came to understand their style or steal their style, like

rip it off from other people. I mean, you know, Tumbler is all about repurposing someone else's ideas aesthetics, you know, and claiming them for your own. And not just that, but like it's it's ownership and also like it really it's like real real ownership. Like even like the way it's kind of like reminds me of the way a lot of people think about memes now, where they think that like because they like made a meme. It's like

I have ownership over this image. It's like, actually, we're all just like really like I mean, that's just n f T culture. Yes, exactly exactly, But like people would be like I remember on Tumbler, like people getting into fights over like I made this gift and you like didn't credit me or whatever, and I'm like, oh my god, babe, you put it on the internet. Yeah. And also just like you don't own the rights to fucking I don't know, Lord of the Rings or whatever you like gift. Um, God,

thank god we're out of the gift woods. You know, like I do not want to look at a gift ever. I know who posted gifts. Let me tell you old millennials. Right, Okay, so you ran multiple tumblers. I think you've discussed on the show before I did so. I had my main tumbler, which was just me, are all these these none of these are public anymore? No? They all they don't exist anymore. I did so. When this is funny because we recently

talked about true Blood. Um, when True Blood started, I was really into it and I I never used it, but I got the handle fuck yeah, Anna Paquin because you know, fuck yeah blogs were a huge Yeah yeah, everyone wanted the fun yeah blank you got the first the hours that I spent on fuck yeah Lady Gaga because you know, like two thousand nine, tumbler Gaga had just become a thing. And I would say, like, especially

after Um the fame monster that was. I mean, I spent all my time on Tumbler looking at images of Lady Gaga. Um. And I think she, more than any other pop star in her field for a very long time, was so aesthetics driven, like she was a creative director.

You knew her as a creative director first beyond being an amazing mutic artist, and that obviously translated to tumbler culture exquisitely because when she does the paparazzi you know, um performance at the MTV Music Awards, or when she does the Batterman's music video whatever, those things are like crystalline Lee perfect for tumbler culture and obsession over Yeah. And she was oooky, spooky, which tumbler loves. And she

also she was alten. Also, there was this feeling, especially in the early years of her career, that it was very d I y you know, there was the House of Gaga. She was making all of this herself. She was like creating things like the flying dress and like that kind of ship, so that all of all of those things came together, I think, to make her a

perfect artist for Tumbler. But those fun yeah blogs existed for literally everything, Yeah, I didn't have when I said before that I had a Beyonce and Salange Tumbler called Keeping Up with the Noses. But like I mostly just like went to Tumbler too, just to talk from a personal perspect if I really um, I found Tumbler at a time where I was in a kind of like emotionally abusive relationship. Sorry, I didn't mean to actually go that deep so quickly, but like I felt so low,

Like I had a very low opinion of myself. I had this boyfriend who was basically like bullying me within our relationship every single day. I felt like I and I also had just come out like just a year before, essentially, and I felt like I didn't even know how to

be gay quote unquote you know what I mean. Like I because I grew up in the Midwest, I and because I grew up in this cultural vacuum I left to college feeling like I was like starting from square one, like as an eighteen year old and getting I got a when I got a Tumbler, I didn't tell my boyfriend, like I created this whole world and of myself that I concealed from you know, this person in my life, and it actually set so much of myself free and help me find so many of the things that I

was interested in in tune to um Well, that was one of the great things about Tumbler was the anonymity of it. Oh my god, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think that like, because you didn't have to put your name and face on all this, I could do whatever the funk I wanted and it didn't matter. Not that I was doing anything crazy on Tumbler, but like I mean, you're just like what jerking off? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

But like I think another facet of this is like my boyfriend at the time was trying to control my aesthetics and the things that I liked and would like make me feel bad about music that I listened to because he recommended it or would like tell me that I couldn't wear certain things or at certain ways. And it's like was this your silver hair era? No, no, no, oh my god, but that would be perfect for tumbler culture.

Very sadly an embarrassing an area, very embarrassingly my silver hair era was post in thesely um But all that is to say is Tumbler creates this really beautiful kind of like uh, I guess vacuum, yeah, to kind of project and imbue and foster, slash, fester all of your kind of cultural desires. And I just feel like tumbler culture and a lot of things like it allow users to hyper fixate on things to make their whole personality, so that the hyer fixation is such a huge part

of it. And that hyperfixation and the obsession that we accrue on something like Doctor Who or Twilight or whatever makes you think that because you're an expert on those things, you don't actually have to learn basic life skills like how to make friends or like how to have a conversation.

But also a lot of people made friends through tumbling, and you know, even though Tumbler was a play where you could be anonymous, it was also a place where you interacted with people who loved obsessively the things that you loved. Obsessively and if you could cross that like anonymous internet divide, you could find someone who you might

be friends with for life. I didn't really make a lot of Internet friends because what at the time that I was on Tumbler, I was also part of what I guess is the I r L counterpart of the indie sleeves movement, which was party culture and like the aesthetic the like real world aesthetics of indie sleeves. So

like I had a thriving social life. I was going to underground shows, I was going to see you know, yeah yeah yeahs, and like I was out in the world doing all the things that people were only doing online. So I didn't feel like I needed to make friends that way. So my first Internet friend was made on Tumbler. His name was Ian, and we you know, like became friends.

And when I moved to New York years later after college, Ian was the person that I stayed, that I crashed with over the weekend before I moved into my apartment, Like I slept on his couch because of Tumbler, which is so beautiful and crazy. Um but I to the like music component of all of it all. You mentioned the yeah yeah yeahs. This was kind of peak Pitchfork question Mark or like came at the end of as was more Spin Magazine and Ben Nylon Nil is very indy,

sleep my God. Okay. If there's one thing that I jerked it too, it was Jason Schwartzman on the cover of Nylon Magazine. Jason Schwartzman. Well, Jason Schwartzman was a crush of mine. But more than that was his brother, who was the lead singer of Rooney. Do you remember the band Rooney? No, I do remember Jason Schwartzman Coconut Records. I loved Coconut Records, but Rooney. Rooney is a little

pre Indi Sleeves. Rooney is like very like California. Um. Robert Schwartzman, who's the lead singer songwriter, was Anne Hathaway's love interest in The Princess Diaries. Oh, I don't remember that guy. Do they both have that? Like? They kind of they look very similar, do they both have? Robert's a little cuter, he's a little more like traditionally hot, but the very similar vibes. And I had such a huge crush on him and I once saw Rooney open

for Fergy in concert. Yeah, it was a weird pairing. Okay, not not necessarily a one to one, But since we're talking about indie sleeve is I remember driving four hours from Indiana to Chicago to watch Janelle Monet open for of Montreal, not of Montreal, not crazy, you're sick. Can you imagine a world where Janelle Money opens of Montreal?

I mean, their their collaboration like that, their love for each other actually was so beautiful because at least from my eyes and where when I was consuming their music at the same time, I didn't think they really sounded anything alike and that they didn't have anything to do with each other. So the fact that they found a kind of artistic camaraderie and like work together to build each other's careers up, especially at a moment where of Montreal is one of the most you know, beloved bands

in the indiess era. I don't know, there's something about that that like crystallizes so much about it's actually really wonderful and good. But that was another big part of indie sleeves was finding music through other bands, through me, through you know, Blango Tech, through Um like Um Brooklyn Vegan, Brooklyn Vegan, I think this was a time in my life's specifically where I was constantly looking for new music.

This was like pre Shazam and so I would you know, this was the time of like going into an urban outfitters, sorry to speaking into existence and like discovering discovering. This was a time of discovery. This was a time of being like a sponge soaking up new culture. Or you know, you walked into Starbucks, you get your your grande a blonde roast, and you see the sink the free single of the week that you get on your little card and you downloaded on it tunes. Do you remember that.

I'm pretty sure I found I mean, this is you know, tweet a different conversation, but I remember discovering probably Ingrid Michaelson through Starbucks's or no, I think I discovered Ingrid Michaelson through an Apple commercial. There's so many artists like that where it's like you kind of discover them on accident.

Like I know, Pitchfork was kind of at the end of any slee but like i UM, I worked at this literary and on profit um during these like years that I UM was like working in Chicago, and I did go to Pitchfork every single year for free because I would volunteer for this nonprofit so I could like table for them. And I saw so many of these, like Quintessential Indi Slee's bands and I I mean, but like a lot of them. It's like I wasn't even seeing on purpose. Like I think I've seen Beach House

on accident four times. Beach House Live is so good. So I saw them at Coachella and it was one of the best shows I saw. It was the only time I've gone to Coachella. Um, it was twenty twelve and it was that year I saw Beach House. Yeah yeah, yeah. Grimes and this was like early Grimes. Actually I was

I saw um Dive Do you remember Dive? Actually? Um, I was at a Dive show and it was when Sky Feraro dating the lead singer, and she and I like danced together because I was okay wait, speaking of Grimes, I remember going to Pitchfork to go see Grimes perform and sitting in the press or not the press are is sitting on the wings of the stage and like the VIP area was Lady Gaga sitting there like and this is and this is when she is the most famous,

and I remember gagging. I remember being like Lady Gaga's at this Grimes concert. It was like so surreal. Um, you know, we can't you know, indian, like we can't talk about indie sleeves music without like really doubling down on the indie part of it. This was this was the time in music culture when indie music peaked. And I think like the real peak of it was when jay Z was spotted at a Grizzly Bear show. And that's kind of when when everyone realized that indie music

had sort of become mainstream. And I think that is what like ruined, not ruined, but kind of signaled the end of this era of indie music as we know it, like has indie acts and bands became actually the biggest acts that existed, Like whether it's like Grizzly Bear or I'm thinking of like Vampire Weekend. Those shows where huge, The shows where huge. Did you see the video of Taylor coming out to perform with Boni Ver It just

happened this week. Oh my god, came out and they sang exile, Oh, oh my god, wait I'm in for that. Bony Ver decually didn't sound great. Oh that sucks well, does she ever? Phone? Um? I Boni Vere was definitely the soundtrack to like my college era of depression and a very wintry Indiana University, and that those albums are more period. I was more of a Fleet Foxes girl, if we're talking about sort of the male indie acts. Yeah, I mean I haven't listened to a man sing music

and years. Fleet Foxes was definitely my ship. Like I love White Winter Hymnoal. I mean the Helplessness Blues is an amazing album. Um, I love that album. I can like, honestly, we should just like rattle off some more, just like so that the virgins at home can like scream to remember MGM mgmt um m g m T owned my whole The Strokes. I was very much the Strokes pilled.

I used to go to that. One of the members of the Strokes um owned a like secret bar in the East Village called Cabin, and my friends and I used to go there and it was like they like we were like, oh my god, fucking cool. Um do you okay? Arcade Fire Where the wild soundtrack? I love Arcade Fire? Can I tell you where the Wild Things are? The movie The Spike. Well, they didn't do the soundtrack. Kareno did the soundtrack to the Where the Wild Things Are.

All right, Sorry, I'm thinking about the song, the Arcade Fire song that was the trailer that, like you know, it was like so beautiful and like also catapulted it into like even more popularity. But um, yeah, Kareno is also in easily very Innasily's era. Obviously, Um, when I was working at this literary nonprofit in Chicago, Spike Jones, Where the Wild Things Are to me was the pinnacle

of culture. I had never anticipated anything more in eons because I was so obsessed with like obviously Mary Sandek, obviously with like the yeah yahs, already obviously with Dave Eggers, because Dave Eggers. If we're going to talk about literary Indiesle's era is also that kind of like to reign of like culture. Um, did you listen to Bride Eyes? No? Oh my god, bright Eyes so sad? Were you a

Belle and Sebastian girly? I? Um, okay, I didn't ledge onto Belle and Sebastian as much because I think that like the indie acoustic section of indie sleeves for me, was all occupied by like Sufian stephens Um and the immense discography that he just had already. I feel like he came on the scene with seventeen albums, like he already had so much work that we had to, like, you know, shuffle through. I was never I was never a Sufian girl. Um, were you into Damien Rice? Not Damien?

I wasn't, but some of my best friends were. I had suffered through a lot of it, I mean, and then then we kind of spin out to the more sort of like bluesy parts of it, like Grace Potter and the Nocturnals. Remember Potter, Oh bluesy? Okay? Bluesy to me is like Tuniards? Did you did you listen to Juniards? I think? Honestly, something that's really interesting about what we're talking about in the music portion of this convo is that indi sleeves is not defined by any specific sound.

I could argue, right like we have when we have genres like pop or country or whatever, Like indie sleeves does not faction into a specific sonic thing that you can differentiate from other genres because there's overlap. Does that make sense? Yeah, Well, because it's all based on being independent, being underground, and being in this time period. And also a hallmark of Indie sleeves is mash up culture. So it's all about these different styles of music taking from

each other, sampling each other. So like you know, the girl Talk a vacation, I was say, did you ever see girl Talk? I did see girl Talk. I never saw them. I did see sligh bells. You you and I have had We've talked about slay bells. I loved slay Bells. Perhaps actually no, not, perhaps, without a doubt, one of the best live performances I've ever seen. It

was so so and I not here. It went very hard. Yeah, I do think we should talk about the fashion of India slaves because that, more than anything, you know, once we once we started talking about the India Saves revival, I think that more than anything is where we're seeing that revival is the aesthetics of this time period. So you know, we already referenced it, but American apparel, there's nothing more Indi sleeves and also American spirits. It was it was part of the I hate American spirit. I

also think that I was a smoker. I was not an American Spirit smoker, and if I asked someone for a cigarette and all they had were American spirits, I would simply go without you be like, no, thank you, I was good, I'm good. I don't want to have to fucking roll a cigarette to break it up and then choke through smoking it for twenty minutes. Yeah, the stage one or whatever. Um, yeah, that that was my

cigarette choice. I also, honestly, I do think it was part of the uniform, you know, because in these college years, I was a closet it's like smoker for like almost two years. Did you know this? A lot of people didn't know that I smoked multiple cigarettes a day. I know that you smoke cigarette every time we go on vacation and we're buying groceries. But one of us was like, should we buy a cigarettes. We're like, we're on vacation, and I usually hate it because listen, I quit smoking

in two thousand seventeen. I like went fully cold turkey. It was very easy for me to quit, but I had been I had been a social smoker for ten years, and now I like to smoke a cigarette like once a year to remind myself that I hate them. But also and also went. But when I'm on vacation, it's a different story. Like when we were on Fire Island this summer and bought a pack of camel crushes, I was although camel crushes were not my cigarettes of choice when I was an active smoker, I was a camel

filters girl. That's rough, that's kind of gross. And they're they're a little hardcore. They're like a little heavier than camel lights. Um, okay, But back to the American apparel of this, So we're talking skinny jeans, skinny more than I think anything. Skinny jeans are what skinny jeans and flannel are what this era of fashion was all about.

But also thinness was what this era of fashion was all about actually, and that like as like someone who was fat, you know, I mean who is fat and was fat during this period in fashion, Like all of these places were places that like it was very hard if you did not have like a very thin body to shop at, but like you know, you found ways around it, you found ways to participate. But this was

a time in culture where thinness was the aesthetic. Like I mean we talked about like earlier, you know, e edy and like pro Ana tumblers, and like this was a time when like we were still using words like heroin chic, which is like a very nineties thing, but like your sticking out definitely maintained until this period of time.

And like just like so like I know that, like I mean obviously, like eating disorders were totally like permanent in the culture, but like brands like American Apparel, I feel like Hollister and Abercrombie are also in this category. Insidious Lee made things multiple sizes too small, like it was actually so I told this story already on our last holiday episode with Iron Madison. But I did used to work at an American Apparel of course, because I

feel like it's something of a Brooklyn rite of passage. Um. For I feel like a lot of my friends like that I know now like have like since come out of the closet as people that like work the back room at like American Apparel. I worked front obviously of course I'm a sales girl. Um. But that because there was always that one gay. It was all these like thirteen year old girls and one like college gay. Yeah, one college gay. That's like managing all of them. For actually, no,

the one college gay. That's reporting to a thirteen year old girl who like, you know, really will know maybe a sixteen year old Yes, yeah, we probably shouldn't talk about thirteen year old girls in the context of American over because it all, um, god disgusting, that whole institution so gross. And then they like made their company and they like bankrupt to their own company and then made a new fake shell company called Los Angeles Yes, which

there and evaded all of their like debt and controversy. Yes, the the Starbucks drive through that I go to in l A. When you pull through to get your coffee, you're sitting your car is parked right in front of a billboard for Los Angeles apparel, And it's just the same aesthetic, like a skinny white girl with long, dark hair and huge eyes in a pair of tube socks. Actually is it? Is it? Actually? Um? Is it part of the drive through window? Did they hand you your

grande latte? And also like a pair of high high a knee lengthy leggings or whatever. But I had several pairs of knee high tubox from American Apparel. I had lots of deep v nex, I had lots of circle scars, I had three different pairs of these high waisted like wrider pants. And the thing about American apparel, I swear to God like we were told when if people asked about like for care instructions or whatever, like at the register,

you would tell customers, don't ever wash these clothes. Because I'm not joking because literally, the first time you wash anything from American apparel, the color immediately bleeds out of it. And so that's that's why I had so many pairs of these high waisted black jeans, because I had to wear things you have to be in head to toe American apparel in order to like work there, and those are my favorite jeans, and they would after one wash would look gray. I will say, I do love an

American Apparel hoodie. They were so comfy, very comfy, and the underwear, the briefs were really good. They were all I wore. I'm trying to think if there's any the only thing that has like to me still quintessential American apparel is the pleated tennis skirt. Because most pleated tennis skirts I feel out now are like skirts or they're not the right you know, height, or they're like mew mew, you know, and it's like I don't know, I that's

the one thing that can't be replaced. But like, but like people just need to make more like circle tennis skirts. It's like a really simple product, Like why don't why does it anybody make more pleaded tennis skirts. So then the I would say, the sister of American Apparel when we're talking about fashion is Urban Outfitters, And they weren't in that conglomerate of things on my Urban Outfitters, right, it was anthropology. I think it was just anthropology and

Urban Outfitters. Okay, okay, Urban Outfitters was Mecca. It was my favorite store, Urban out I mean Ryan my you know, you know Ryan Um, my friend Ryan and I used to call the Urban Outfitters at fourteenth and six Mecca, and that was that wasn't an open late Urban Outfitters wasn't um. They were open until maybe ten Have you ever been? It has since closed, which was honestly devastating because I spent so much time, specifically in the sales

section of that Urban Outfitters. I bought all my gifts at Urban, my book collection, Urban, I probably guards yes, records of course, record Player, those suitcase record players. I got my Hipster Handbook at Urban Outfitters. That was like a thing. My mother found my copy of the Hipster Handbook when I was in high school. And the handbook, you know, obviously it's like very crass and I think there's nudity in it, and my mom found it and

freaked out and threw it in the garbage. Urban Outfitters was probably one of the first places where I like bought specifically um women's clothing before I transitioned, you know, or it was either that or like some thrift store.

American Apparel was my gateway for that. Similarly, and you know, Urban Outfitters like it was a one stop shop for hipster culture and apparel because you could buy your skinny jeans, your band T shirt, your flannel shirt, a record, a book, and then like some fucking stupid poster or like art to put on your wall, and a beanie. Although although I will say I do think American Apparel had superior beanies.

Oh absolutely. Is there anything that you bought at Urban Outfitters that was just like prized to you, whether it was a clothing item or something from their gift store, I don't even know my answer yeah, I had. I had a pair of B D G geans that were you know, like I wore them probably every day for a year. Oh yeah, when you find a good pair

of jeans, I used to wear those. And then I had a pair of yellow high top converse and this like blue and purple flannel button down and that was my uniform buttondown for for like the entire year of twenty ten. Buttondowns slash cardigans very this era, like, oh my god, I had so many cardigans. I will never I would never in a million years be caught dead in a cardigan. Sorry, oh I love a cardigan. I do not like cardigan. I have a have a J Crue Cashmere Lend cardigan. That is one of my favorite

articles of cloth. That's a that's a that's a great adam of point half. I can't remember the last time I was in an urban outfitters. Maybe with the indie sleeves revival, um, there will be an urban outfitters revival, which I think is you know, like I think now we can talk about the resurgence of indie sleeves so um. As much as I am not like a huge fan of trend forecasting, there are some people specifically on TikTok who do it really well. And there's this creator that

I follow, Old Loser in Brooklyn Um. She makes a lot of tik talks about fashion and she is a trend forecaster. And this time last year she predicted the return of indie sleeves and she really was the first person who said this, and in the years since, we really have seen it come back. I think, both aesthetically and in our media. Um So, I would say that the things we're seeing, you know, most of all, are

like the return of like outdated technology. You know, the original in the sleeves it was like record players and like polaroid cameras, and um now it's like the girlies who are wearing you know, wired iPhone headphones. Wired. Oh yeah, exactly. The return of ballet flats, which are I mean, I'm what I wore my my silver ballet flats are way too nice to be called ballet flats. Well, they but I mean they are literally ballet. It just feels it

feels derogatory. But they're also like another thing. They're like they're silver and silver and chrome are a big thing that's coming back from leaving gold behind. Well, gold is like very this thing that's been happening in the past, like a couple of years, this whole clean girl aesthetic, the Hailey Bieber thing, the like slicked back hair, gold jewelry, and now we're going more towards like messy, glittery, dark makeup chrome like Effie Stone skins, Vibe skins if we're

talking about indie sleeves. Skins was the moment. Yeah, And obviously, like and mentioned, this is also the resurgence of like early ots culture, which is maybe slightly different or has like overlap with like indie sleeves because you know, I feel like I'm always I've seen I now see so many girls out there with haircuts look like they're directly

from two thousand seven. Well that was so I mean looking back at like that's when we saw the revival of Y two K. So we have now like this everything is cyclical, Everything happens in cycles, and like specifically these like twenty year cycles. So we had the resurgence of Y two K Mick Blane um, and now we're moving into indie sleas it's like this very natural progression um. And also you know the indy sleeves movement was, as we said the opening of the episode, a direct reaction

to the Great Recession and what's happening right now. We're entering another recession, so of course we're looking to an aesthetic that can be achieved with less capital. You can follow us on Instagram at Like a Virgin, slide into our d m s. Tell us what your favorite UM indie band is. Tell us what fan tumbler you ran, Um, what are you excited about coming back in this INDI sleeve as a revival and what do you want to stay in the past. How many physical copies of a

Sufian Stephen's album do you have? Zero? Zero? For me? Um? Please leave us a review on Apple podcast It helps us out so much. I'm your co host Rose Damn You. You can find me anywhere online at Rose Damn You and I'm Fran. You can find me at friends, squish co, anywhere you like, subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts, and please leave us a rating on Spotify or review on Apple Podcasts. Even if it's a

little sassy or salty, it really helps us out. Like a Virgin is an I Heeart Radio production our producers Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane, Chitch and Nikki Eatur Until next week, See you later, Virgins, my