Loving HER Was Red (feat. Bowen Yang)

Oh really, you just like all blues, like just like blue, even like a like a like a hideous like navy blue. See. I think this is one of the differences between us is you have to know exactly what kind of blue you like. I just like the color blue. Okay, okay, so why did you ask me? That? Color? Is going to be very important today because we will be talking about an album that has the name of a color,

and what color would that be? Rose? It would be read Today we'll be talking about Red by Taylor Swift, maybe my second favorite color, maybe my second favorite Taylor Swift album. I guess we'll get into it. Welcome back to Like a Virgin, the podcast where we talk about yesterday's pop culture but give it today's takes. I'm Rose, damn you, I'm Fran Toronto, and today, as stated, we will be diving into Taylor Swift's iconic album Red, with the help of bow and Yang of Saturday Night Live

and the podcast Lost Culture Stas. I'm so excited to really get into Red with Bowen. But before that, let's talk about what's going on in you know, the news and pop culture right now. This week is in many ways all about one woman and the emotional chokehold she has on us, our community, our community, and on the world. And that woman is Taylor Swift, of course, Taylor Allison Swift. Last week, Taylor Swift released Red, Taylor's Version, the latest

in her effort to re record all of her albums. Fran, what did you think? First of all, it's like seventeen hours long, um, which is such a gift, such a gift in my opinion. I mean, even though a lot of the songs are just carbon copies of the originals, I did love what she did change, Like this song Girl at Home to Me is like maybe the most significantly different, And I did not like that song on the original Red and Taylor's version to me was like so grown and a little more poppy, and what did

you think? I have to agree. I really liked the new production on Girl at Home, but really, for me, it was all about the from the Vault tracks. I obviously love the song with Phoebe Bridgers. It was my favorite song. I also really love the song Message in a Bottle, which I saw someone on TikTok say is like a song from the Trolls World War three credits and what I didn't love it, but I love it so much. I have been listening to it kind of NonStop. But we have to talk about the film Rose. I

had fun watching it. I think it's silly, but it's and and like very literal, but I'm I'm happy it happened. It was another moment in this very aggressive, like a week long album release cycle, because I think she understands that she has until Adele thirty comes out to do promo for Red Tailor's version, and so she's amming it all into one week. I thought it was a little on the nose that it played behind her during the SNL performance, but I loved her in The Red Wig.

What did you think of it? Like that was your main takeaway? I loved her in The Red Wig. It was my main takeaway. It was similar to my main takeaway from the Bad Blood video. Loved her in The Red Wig. Loved her in The Red Wig. I okay. I My first reaction was like, this is messy Boots, Like it is. It is quintessential Taylor to write and direct a ten minute film about a breakup that happened a decade ago, opening with a Pablo Naruta quote about

how he'll never forgive Jake Jillen Hall. Because like, when I listened to the ten minute version without the film, I was like, oh, you know, maybe she's actually not that mad at Jake, and she's just writing it for the marketing, very shrewdly and wisely, like go off, Taylor, um, and like she doesn't actually feel a type of way about it was just fun to write because allegedly, according to like Redditt threads and fan listeners or whatever, she

was like, you know, in the studio for whatever reason, and they were recording all too well, and she just started riffing versus and I think, actually, I think they were rehearsing for a tour and she and she like was in feeling a certain type of way, sat down at the piano and just started playing and like and all too well is kind of like an improvised ten minute song, but they cut down and this is now

the this is not the original version. And after she was riffing this, I guess it was ages ago, the producer walked up to her after almost like and by the way, like I recorded that if if you want it for later, and so this is later, mama, and we now. Actually what happened is that her mom walked up to love the live fact that you just let your you're letting me spew conspiracy theories when you have all the facts. You're in the reddit threads. It comes.

I'm not in the reddit threads. She talked about this like on Steth Myers or Jimmy Fallon or something that she was like at rehearsal in her feelings started playing this and then afterwards her mom went up to like the sound engineer and was like did you record that? And they had so key how it is now it is what it is, Fran did you order a funk the Patriarchy key chain from Taylor Swift dot com. I mean no, I didn't. I don't love the typeface, but I actually would if it was maybe to have the

asterisk and can't you just say funck? I understand that she has a lot of young fans, but like if they have if they're carrying around a key chain that says the patriarchy, like they know what it is. I did buy some merch. I bought the All Too Well t shirt and the red Taylor's version. Now, Jean Bottle, are you going to wear it with your cardigan? Your Taylor Swift again? I will be. I now at this point own too much Taylor Swift merch, so I will be layering it to um stay warm during this uh

Los Angeles winter. I guess my only question for you is what to you is the most unhinged lyric and or moment from the All two Well ten minute version or the film Oh well, I mean not unhinged, but my favorite lyric is you kept me like a secret, but I kept you like an oath. You know. Don't don't hate that I'm being sincere, but that is pure Taylor Gold songwriting. It is so evocative, it is definitely peaked. Taylor is is her magnum opus. I don't say that

even in a facetious way. I think it's emblematic of like everything she does. My main takeaway was that Taylor Swift will direct a Marvel movie. She what that? I don't know about that. Is she going to direct the next Eternals? Is that? What's going to happen? Journals too? And she will be one of the Eternals as well? Oh no, there are already too many Eternals. We simply do not have room for more. And her power will

be something song based. Yeah yeah, well yeah, okay, okay, maybe she'll have ten rings for each minute of um all too well. Uh, speaking of rings, I haven't watched the Adele one Night Only whatever, but I did see the clip of the proposal that happened at it. Your take, there are only two takes from you. Either you hated it and you found it foul and disgusting, or you loved animated you cry, well, which one do you think it was? I am gonna guess cry no, oh damn it. Okay,

so I thought it was. I thought it was disgusting. I hate I hate a surprise proposals in front of a lot of people, and especially in front of celebrities. And it's funny that we're talking about Taylor Swift because this used to happen to her a lot at her meet and greets. I remember when we were both writing together as journalists. Um, there was something that happened where she went to a gay bar to surprise a gay couple and like played something on the guitar while they

got engaged. Um, I'm just not into that thing and this Adele thing. Like I guess I'm happy for them, but even though I don't believe in marriage, I don't want anyone to propose to me. But even if I did, that is not how I would want to be proposed to. The gist is congrats to this lucky couple. I hope you are very happy together and have many long years of listening to Adele's music. And after those long years, I'm sure you'll probably cry about this in therapy because

it'll be maybe an issue in your marriage a decade down. Fran, you know, it's rare that you are caught up on something in pop culture that I am not, but it is not unprecedented. Case in point, you are watching the current season of Real hospives of Salt Lake City, and I am not so as our Salt Lake City correspondent.

Can you give me the download on what's going on because I know the past two weeks have been insane, so Rose, I don't want to get too into the into the thick of it, as they say, um into the thick of it, exactly into the thick of it Ocean Kelly Remix, Yes, because you know, we don't want to become a Real Housewives recap podcast. However, Andy did say this was a top five episode for him out of any franchise. You know the gist of the characters. You watched a little bit of the first season crapt

and I watched the first episode of this season. Okay, so you're caught up on a little bit, and you also watched you've seen clips online, you watched the previews. The gist is the show has become a C. S I level crime thriller that could potentially even supersed what we were given by Erica Jane in Real Housewives of

Beverly Hills. Of course, this is at the federal level, similar to Erica Jane, but the Department of Homeland Security showed up with a swat team to the production and to get gen Shaw, who had fled the scene basically minutes before they arrived. Why did they need a swat team which she armed? So here's the thing is that they did. There was a lot of theories and hypothesizations completely made up word um spewed in the bus as they had basically a six hour bus ride right after

the swat team shows up to their bus. Can you imagine that like the gaggiest thing that ever happened, and then you have six hours in a moving vehicle to talk about it. That's that's the dream. That is honestly what made the episode so brilliant because these housewives were breaking it down in real time, almost as if they were doing it with the audience, like trying to figure out what the funk went down. Clearly production was involved in some way. They were like, she's on the bus. Yeah,

the production probably tipped off the FBI. I mean, I think it's pretty clear the production tipped off. However, I think what the narrative is is that Meredith Marks did it, thus securing her place as my number one housewife in this franchise and in My Housewives All Stars cast point blank period. The only thing I did see from this episode on Twitter was the clip of Meredith um in the bathtub. Can you please explain what was going on? There? A crucial dichotomy as the women are on this bus,

all of them sobbing. I should say, you know, it is very funny, but all of their immediate reactions, with the exception of Jenny, who is iconic and stone face, the whole time they're all crying. They have a friend who has basically lied to them at the federal level, and it's revealed that their friends. Yeah, all one day one day as the SWAT team breaks down my apartment door, um, and uh, they're all like very emotional with this experience, um, and trying to figure out what the fuck is going on.

Lisa calls all six of her lawyers in an iconic montage that is like in House Lives history, And meanwhile Meredith Mars is drunk toasted in the bath like a huge bubble bath serving honestly me, Um, I think she has like a glass of champagne, or she doesn't, she should and she waits in that bath for hours so that it is the way that she greets the women as they arrived to the vacation home that this six hour bus is going to fully naked. She is definitely

fully naked. She might be wearing like a nude panty or something like for production, but the garden venus Mary Cosby was not in the bus. She arrives ahead of time as Meredith Mars has like drawn this long bath obviously just for production purposes, and they sit and gossip about jen Shaw for so long that all the bubbles disintegrate, and so Meredith is like clutched in the corner of the bath, nude, still trying to conceal herself in gossip

about federal cases. Okay, what I want to know is in the pantheon of iconic unhinged Housewives moments, Um, where does this stuck up against? Like, but now we've said it, Beverly Hills Charay pulling Kim Zolesiac's wig off on Atlanta and Scary Island from New York. You know what I thought about Scary Island and but now we've said it. When I watched this episode, it has definitely one upped. The Charay pulling off of the wig is definitely more

enthralling and engaging than that episode. Compared to Scary Island. Nothing compares to Scary Nothing contars to Scary Island. However, it is definitely in that canon, definitely in top five. I don't know if you plan on watching it, but I do feel like you will be. I will. I will definitely go watch these two episodes where this happened. But I think that's as much I need to see. Okay, t b D, tb D. I hope you enjoy the ride and then that you text me under penalty of death.

I absolutely will. Now that we have covered this week's pop culture happenings, let's talk about Red with Bow and Yang. I'm so excited now that we've talked about Taylor's version to really dig into how it has radicalized us as the swifties we are today. Don't don't don't Fran. You have named your stands the fran base. I have not. I have a person, really, and you have named yours

the Rosebuds. Well, they actually named themselves the Rosebuds. And I'm wondering if our guest has our guest bow and Yang. Do your stands have name? I don't think they do. I don't wish. I I celebrate fan names I just don't if I think about people who like identify as liking me, then that that really freaks me out. Well, it must be different from for you because you're actually favored.

No no, no, no, no no no. I already get too many d ms or tags where people will hashtag like yang yang me, and I'm like, that's not for me. You guys know that I don't know what you're talking about. Yangang sounds perfect, stop and it just rolls off the tongue. And it's honestly a very good hashtag. It's a very good like base name. We love a rhyme, we love a rhyme, but like it just there's there. There's there's a lot of baggage that has nothing to do with me,

and so therefore I don't I don't want it. You know, well, today we want you to unpack that baggage. Also, if you couldn't tell today we're talking about Red Red, what year was Red? October twelve came out and today is October two to twenty two. The magic of recording this episode is coming to you from the past. Yes, um, it is not actually live and happening as you listen to it, and we are recording it on the anniversary of Red's release. Did you mean for that to happen?

I don't know. We did not. And Taylor Swift, as we know, is a numerologist famously puzzles Da Vinci code. And we may not have known that this is happening, but she knew. And all of us are Robert Langdon the main character in the da Vinci code. Well, I might be who's the villain in the da Vinci code? There's um is it Leonardo da Vinci? It's Mary Magdalench. You are Mary Magdalene? You really are? You really are? Bowen? Yeah?

Tell us about Red? Okay, so Red it is one of the top albums, and this album is the top. I think this album is. I think this album is like full true true verse. I would say the lead singles are all tops, except for maybe begin Again, which seems like a bottom anthem, not an anthem, just to bottom sort of acoustic plucky song. Anyway. Red is Taylor

Swift's fourth studio album. It marked the inflection of her country roots quote unquote into this pop sound that many would say that she had always sort of tipped her way into. Played with it. She played with it well, this was the first like declarative. I guess you could say that was like the first like she build it as like her first true pop album. But Red was like an album of many first This is when it started,

This is when it started ended. You know. She comes out with We're Never Getting Back Together, which becomes her first number one single. Yeah, she it's her first album with Max Martin songs and hear that and you can hear that the maximal is the maximum. I was talking to Roles about how this came in the era of music where every song sounded like a pit Bull song. Yes,

it's like Gangham style. And this was also the era of dub step, as you can hear on I Knew You Were Trouble and it's I think it's your longest Oh no, I think it was eventually beat by folklore. It was her longest album with the most tracks. It is a long album, a lot of tracks. It's another another kind of maximalism. There's the maximalism of Max Martin being involved, and there's a maximalism of like just the volume and the breadth of the of the song. It

was also we could say an emotional maximalism. Sure, wait, go into this time because this is a very well, this is a breakup album. You know, it's a breakup album and it has I think some of her most emotive songs on it. Yes, absolutely. I think it's also the first time where people started to kind of notice this concept of the track five and Taylor Swift albums and now it's like, I guess sort of people vaguely know it maybe, but like typically her track fives on

her albums are the most emotionally raw song. What are some of the other track five? Um, all you have to do with stay? Track five on Reputation was delicate? Um. Track five on speak Now is I think Dear John like and white Horse was on Fearless. I can't believe how you are summoning this swifty out of me. Look, so else would we call into the studio? We picked up our Swift follows and it was a red phone. It was a red phone, And then I said, a crisis. Can we what was the red thing? With? Ta okay,

here we go. This is the red thing. This is my theory on the Red Thing. Around this time, there was an announcement that they were making a biopic about Joni Mitch Carly Simon and Carol King and I think it's called Girls Like Us or something, And the rumor was and Taylor Swift was vying for the Joni Mitchell role, and Joni Mitchell years later would say, I put a stop to that myself. I don't like her. I don't

like Taylor. ID just sown Taylor. But I think Taylor has always held this musical torch for Jonie for obviously. I mean, we all love Joni Mitchell, like everyone loves Johny Mitchell. And I think, honestly, I think Taylor probably was like I want to like transition out of this like teen adjacent country pop style sound into something more

quote unquote adult or mature. And she probably saw Blue by Joni Mitchell as this like north Star, Like this is like I want to create an album that has this kind of like not monument I wouldn't say Blue was like monumental, but like there's this like I'm sure she wanted some like big legacy thing like she was going after like a future classic like Blue. And then Read is a very literal song about like synesthesia whatever. But why do all of these artists of synesthesia. I'm

so jealous. I don't think it's real. But Taylor doesn't have synesthesia. Well, Lord is going to call the studio right now, and how dare you invisibilize me and my keyboard? Anyways, I feel like the big thing about Taylor and I think that Joni Mitchell of it all is like her mode of like storytelling, and like I think that like the way she kind of like put herself into a into a song and like I guess reveled in her contradictions, especially with this album, was really nice. I feel like

before it's like quintessential girl next door. Just what how old was she when she started fifty? She was like she was technically sixteen like when the album released, but she was like she started when she was like fourteen, right, and so in that it's like it was a lot of innocence. She was a little sassy, she had a funny sense of humor. But this was the album where she was just like I came to fuck and these

are all of contradictions. It almost like was like a prequel to I was going to say a prequel to a reputation, but I'm not like no no no, no no no no, don't keep going next Yes, followed because so much of it was like the anger of Red and like the kind of that that it was. It was not like a sad breakup album. It wasn't like it was angry. It was receipts, receipts. Well. It is her first album where she acknowledges her fame, like who's

Taylor Swift anyway? Like You're much records, much cooler than mine. Like this is like her finally coming into some self awareness, being like I know who I am, how I who I am in this world, who I am to people? And like I think, yes, that is a very astute observation.

Also just before I forget, like one, I think the first time she like sings through another person's perspective, I think in Um, I think in Starlight, where she's like basically like singing about like being with like Kennedy and like the sixties or something like she's like traveling through time and like I think, and then like that ends up like being this the this thing that recurs in folklore where she's like different points of view, like when

we last Great American Dynasty. There you go like period down my favorite hate, like one of my favorite songs on folklore is last great American dynasty. Like I can be in my car like going hard to it. I would, I would snore the line of Kennemy into American Dynasty. Yeah, I gotta, I gotta. I have snorted a lot of Wait where we were we were in Big Bear. Oh yeah, when we were in Big Bear, we did and listened

to folk. I'm so jealous we're getting a cabin. What I want to know is when did your relationship with Taylor Swift begin? Yea, it began with Red because I did not care for her until this album because loving her was red. Hev her was product Red was product right. That was like a decade before did I had that? I had at the Flipbone, did of the Motor product right. I guess I'm I'm pro AIDS because I never bought a productress. You are you? You hate YouTube? Who was

the least thing bo right? And there's there's another there's a YouTube connection to Red. Oh my god? Is it really? I just I just feel like State of Grace the opening track, my god, it is my favorite. It's my favorite. It's my favorite Taylor Swift song ever. And sisters told me, sister, I feel so held by it is when Okay, when Spotify earlier this year did a thing where it was like gave you the like time. It was like, you're your most listened to artists, and like the songs of

theirs that you listened to the most. My list was number one All Too Well, number two State of Grace, and then number three was Macavity from the Taylor Connection. She was in cats Her It was no was Taylor's Taylor. Oh my god? Okay, so play going back to placing Bowen in time and when the Red album came out, what was going on with you? I can so amazing. We're recording in midtown. I was working beautiful midtown, beautiful exotic midtown. Well, this was this was where I was

at in my life. I just graduated college. I didn't know what to do, like I like basically through my degree in the trash, my science degree in the trash. Didn't want to go to med school. This was a period of tumult in my life, and I was like, I'll figure it out in the city somehow. I'll just work temp jobs. I was working in a temp job on like fifty seven and Lexington, like so many girls

have done before. You truly in a legacy, but truly like lunch breaks you'd walk to like Sutton Place or whatever, go to Essen and like just window shop at Bloomingdale's or something like that was like such a I was like true, like I was. I didn't know back then, but I definitely was depressed at like was going through such a rough patch in my life, like really didn't

know what the hell I was gonna do. And like something happened around August when we are never getting back together came out and I was just like, oh my god, this is this is an incredible moment in my life that I am listening to this song and loving like there's something about there was something finally exciting to me about Taylor Swift working with Max Martin because I knew who Max Martin was, and I was just like, I think by by that time, people like had an awareness

of who he was, like on a greater on a larger scale. It's when we kind of started to understand the producers who were behind exactly exactly, and like it was just so thrilling to me and we're never something really I don't know why I like confected myself to this song but I was like, I love this singer now. And then in the anticipation for the red release, like I would just go back and listen to her old stuff and I found it like had an appreciation for that.

But then literally it was she did almost on Good Morning America. She released a promotional single like the three weeks before the album came out in October and September, and I think State of Grace was like the second one she released. And I listened to the snip of snippet of it on the broadcast of Good Morning America, and I heard the soaring chorus and I was like, what this is? What is she doing? This is going

to be incredible. And then the song comes out at midnight and I listened to it and I go, this is one of the best songs in the last like five ever and that is still today. It's a transcendent song. It hits me when I start listening to it. It like starts in my gut, s's way up in my chest and explodes out of me. There are car rides in Los Angeles where I will just listen to State of Grace on repeated sister, and and this morning when

I was coming to the studio. There is nothing like walking to the subway and autumnal New York listening to State very it's it's such an autumnal album and then the song and like I was, and then I have like a gustatory association with this album too, because it was like me walking on my lunch break around Midtown clutching a pumpkin spice latte listening to I knew you were trouble, being like, this is fall, this is following New York, My just salad. She now owns Fault. You know.

I had a sort of similar experience of Taylor, but like slightly different because I, like, before Red, I really liked individual Taylor songs, Like I was very into our song yes, um maybe like the rhythm of it or something. So did you start with those albums or did you start with Red ASUM know, I started with those albums when she was first breaking out, but really it was song based and I was like, not a Taylor Swift fan. And then when Red came out, that's when I was like, oh,

I like Taylor Swift as an artist. And then nine is what radicalized me as a Swifty was what radicalized me as a swift e. UM. I had moved to New York in after so I actually didn't listen to the album in real time, surprising no one. UM, I respect it, thank you. It wasn't not there eventually. I just you know, it's a gap. It it's a gapic playing catch up culturally. Um. And I turned twenty two and there is a song on this album. Yes, that is very good, and I was like, oh my god,

I'm happy you've reconfused as well. I think her as a thirty three year old, thirty two year old singing twenty two to us people in our thirties, I think we will connect, we will, we will reconnect to it. There's going to be a new I think the same way with the Taylor's version fifteen. Yeah, there is that. There was this nostalgic aspect like grafted onto it because

of the new lens she's singing through yep, yep. And I think I think that is like twenty two is like a really it does manage to capture something about that time in your life. Even for her is just like at that point she was some like millionaire like recording artist still able to like know, Okay, how can I make this somewhat relatable and that's like the store.

That's the unifying theory of Taylor Swift is that she is like constantly trying to shift the folk rum on how to make herself relatable but also keep her distance very calibrated. Like I think twenty two is a perfect example of that. And I do think, yes, like there will be a nostalgiographed onto it when it comes out.

I I think that's very true, and especially like what you were saying before about how this was the first time she grappled with her fame, because you know, this album was released um during like the pinnacle of hipster and and like irony culture, and so I think I think part of this album was her being like, I know I'm not cool, um and that's fine. I'm gonna just like do this anyway. And it's like a very interesting acknowledgement of like try hardness, Like there's like that

Anne Hathaway quality. I mean, but I mean, you know, I was watching I watched The Witches on my flight

list rewatch multiple rewatches. That's so true, though, And I like, I think that's something about like Taylor's ethos that has always resonated with me and the thing that I always like latch onto and I say this to Rouse all the time, but like it's like my best and also like my worst quality that I try so hard, you know, like I think that's in a lot of and you've got so far and in the it doesn't really matter.

I feel like people our age and I love that there's this gen z Swift e like oh my group that like truly loves her, and they do make the discourse kind of fun, like very funny. This TikTok is exclusively Taylor Swift conspiracy theories. Yeah, it's it's Taylor Swift conspiracy theories about you know, when she's releasing certain things, and it's always so funny to see them like the next day and they were like, well, we're wrong, but but also but then they're like, here's how we might

still not be wrong. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're right, and then they're follow up TikTok and then there's you know, like Taylor Swift lesbian conspiracyies UM, and then there's also the conspiracy theories about um, like the Taylor's version of it all. Like a friend was telling me about this theory about the re records and why like sort of the way that they're being staggered out and why we're

getting certain things before other things. And the theory is that she's releasing the album's that has the songs that gets licensed the most first. That's who devalue the catalog enough that she can just buy it back and not have to rerecord everything. Like that's why she started with Fearless, which has you know, like love story, you Belong with Me read, you know, has like we're never ever getting

back together. She did Wildest Dreams when it was trending on TikTok, so she released the Love Story rereleased when it was on that when it was in an Ami Bryan Reynolds company because their friends are oh yeah yeah yeah, and even and Wildest Dreams, like first it was in that horse movie movie um, and then it was a TikTok sound so um. So I do see a lot of people on TikTok were like, Okay, let's get this song trending, so she has to release it. That's so funny.

Speaking of Kennemy, I feel like a lot of I feel like when I was listening to this and I was listening to like aggressiveness and anger. I do feel like a lot of this was um a foray into like, you know, bad Taylor, like she wants to be Bad Taylor, and like I was, I was, you know, looking through her you know, history and career ahead of this podcast.

I was reading that when she was on the she was the opening set for like Rascal Flats, which is one of her big breaks or whatever, because the person that they already had scheduled for the opening act played too loud and too long on his first set and

they fired him and hired Taylor Swift. And someone from Rascal Flats made a joke to Taylor, and I think she was like fourteen fifteen or whatever made a joke to Taylor and said, you should send him a thank you for like your gold record because it's because he got fired that you whatever. But she did she and thank you. Let her to this guy that was fired. I bring that up because bad Taylor has always been there and this is this was the first glimmers of

reputation Taylor. Yes, so what did you think about because like this is for me in cultural memory, this is when she did the Harry Styles impression on what was it the v m A s or the MTV move Right, because they dated briefly during the recording of this. I do think this is when I became more interested in the persona of Taylor because maybe because I was seeing a lot of people like this was the time of my life where I was like really involved in the

like underground queer art scene in Brooklyn. I was seeing a lot of people who were mining this for like performance art, like earnestly. Earnestly but also psychotically, of course, but it lends itself to that psycho psychosis. Absolutely. Oh yeah, that's why swifties are a thing. Yes, are crazy. I'm among you. I were crazy. It's the one group I will never piss off. I make sure to to tweet about being swifty, like at least once a month so

that when I need them they will be there. And girl, I have crossed the swift Wait really yeah, I would let to talk about it. Do you want to want to go first? Mine's like so embarrassing, minds mind stupid to mine. I was working with Rows at the time out magazine and I it was the year that Casey one, you know, Record of the Year, all his awards, and

I was just so in love with her. And at the time I was really angry with Taylor, I think for you know, like the reasons that everyone else was, but also like maybe there there's some unfoundedness just being angry because there are a lot of celebrities that don't talk about Donald Trump. But she was one of the ones where I was just like, come on, girl, like what are you doing? And anyways, we don't have to get into like the documentary of at all and how

she reconciled that. But like, I was very annoyed with Taylor, and so I posted a meme of of I feel very innocent and funny meme of um, Kasey must Gray is pushing Taylor Swift off a building. Um, and I remember when you did that, and it did go viral, but like in a in it, I think and in a mixed review, in a mixed reviews way and Swift ease, they I mean, they found me and they found my d M. There was blood in the water, they found my friends d M, they found my thought. How did

they get They didn't find Social Security? That I know. I'm I'm grateful that I've survived. This is the bad art friend thing where it's like they can subpoena my mean text, but it was. It was a terrifying moment. I never deleted the tweets, so you can go ahead and retweet and yeah, reinvigorate this, per I mean, that's the thing. I'm a tweet deleter. Yeah, I don't know,

want to keep it, not above it. But you know, it was a part of like just that, that the fury because at the time, I still I still was a Taylor Swift Like. I think that's why the disappointment was so strong and care if you yeah, yeah, I remember hearing Matt talk about that, Matt Rogers talking about this even like you can be the most visceral Swifty and still be so disappointed of course. But anyways, longs short,

I survived. The Swifties did try to get me fired um on on many accounts, the email from out from all as if they could find we're gonna fire you from being a bit about a pop star, like excuse all my podcast network. Anyways, So what was your swift?

My swifty story is similar. It was election day sixteen and we're I don't know if you remember, she was silent the whole the whole election cycle, but she was busy at trying out celebrities on her tour, and then on election day she posted a photo on Instagram of her winning in line at the polls. And then I think I tweeted, yeah, I quote tweeted or I replied, I was like toot too little, too fucking late, or

something like that, something so stupid um. And then of course the Swifties saw it and then like tore into me. They didn't fucking go through my ship though, ducks you. But I like made the mistake of replying to a lot of them and being like you're literally twelve, you do not step to this out a ever ever. I know it's such a miscalculation. I mean, I like I

didn't know then, we did not know. I mean I will say that, like, I think the Swifties need to own this actually, because if she is acknowledging it in like her interviews and her press that like, yeah, I should have spoken up more during the election cycle than like that's it, Like you have to, like Swifties have to, like we all have to like own that. And I feel somewhat vindicated, And I'm sure I don't know if

you do too. I felt very vindicated because she kind of just proved herself like wrong over and over again. And then she she finally disavowed Trump hours before she released her Lover Her Right, and I was like, yeah,

right under the wire. But like, I don't know, I feel differently about it now, but but like I feel like, um, I remember when um the what was like the worst song, the me song me, and like so I had to block it on Spotify so it wouldn't come up when I listened to I do miss hey kids spelling and

stunt anyway, it's spelling, It's fun. Yeah. But then when she did like the whole the Pride video that like kind of like it's like Google, lgbt Q celebrities filled it whatever, and uum I remember tweeting about that and trying to nuance it and being like, what is this

like opportunistic bullshit? I said it in a much more salient and incisive way, of course, but like Taylor Swift fans would like they literally tweeted like like fact, fucking faggot whatever, And then I would go to their like, um, go to their bio, and the link in their bio would be like the equality Like um, it was the Equality Act of linked to their like in their bio calling me a fagot, and I was like, this is this there's just no self there's no self awareness. I

think it is swift um. And also this does radiate out to all of the stand um stands do the same thing as It's just like they they have to love their faith in a way that is destructive, that is destructive and does not allow for nuance. Because and I used to find this a lot as a gaga Stan and you and I have talked about this before. Um, you know, like part of part of my like loving

an artist is being critical of them. And it's unfortunate that especially a lot of these young stands, I feel like they have to love these pop stars who will never be perfect in a way in which they are always right about everything and they can never be critical about them at all, and anyone who is must literally die. Yeah, okay, that's so funny that you said that. I unfortunately searched Taylor on like my Twitter and I found this. Yes, this is this is the This is a classic swiftymeme.

Someone who's handles at Taylor ts so an underscore, I want to kill myself. They tweeted, and then and then the person replying, wait to lover drops please, we can't lose sales. That's a nice Yeah, well as is the Swifty who went to prison because she because she refused to join the Israeli army. Oh my god. Well then we obviously are on hurt. We were, yeah, yeah, because we I mean, this podcast supports BDS. Yes, comrade, Swift, Comrade, there is an overlap between like just a hardcore radical

socialists and swifties. Well, I mean Red Red Red the communist and she was letting us know along with a little wink or or it's like the log having Republican anthelm, maybe being facetious, but you could be right. You could be right about it. So how do you think Taylor changed after Red? I think she changed in every way, Like this is what I'm saying, Like there was I think there was this line and the people will will

say that it's I think like it read. And so much has been said about how Taylor Swift is a very good quote unquote business person as far as like laying out a strategy. But I do think this was a conscious choice for her to be like, let me do a transitional album. I mean, let me not fully crossover, yet let me like persuasively let everybody know that I can do the pop thing by releasing this album that is like a very carefully calibrated blend between like country

and pop and some almost like country. Paris will site, Well, she was always pop, but I feel like this was like the album that she needed to put out in order to like get to version of Taylor Swift. But she didn't sell out this, like she didn't like half asked the fact that this was a transitional album. She like really poured everything into it. And I think I think it's I really think it's one of the best albums.

And where does it fall for you? Okay on the on your ranking of Taylor Swift album this is Wild, I would I will say it's number two after after being edged out by Reputation. No, I was not. I know, I know people a second everybody everybody hold on I think reputation. I listened back to and I go, this is the only album where I think she's making like an observation about society or about the world or about herself, Like I just it is it isn't there's an observation

that's like ingrained in the entire thing. Red is like this like beautiful maximalist thing of like let me try all of these things at once and you're and it will work. Um. And so that's why I like read we we don't have to get too much into reputation and why I love it. But I do fucking love that album despite hating it when it first came out, being like this is crazy. This is for me, of all the Taylor albums, like, besides Folklore, Reputation feels like

the one that I is the most lived in for me. Yes, like it was such I spent so much time with it when it came out. It does not quite make it to the top of the list for me. And I want to know, do you think has Folklore? Have Folklore and Evermore been out long enough for you to place them? I think so because I think I've gotten to that point as well, only just recently. Yeah, and but we talked about this, so you're more of an Evermore girl. No, I'm more of a Folklore girl. God

blessed and Folklore is my favorite Taylor Swift album. Folklore is up there. It's it's it's the three our reputation, Read and Folklore just like very closely orbiting each other. For me, it's Folklore red and very good. I love so much, excellent album. I think Read and stuff for this thing where they dip in the second half a little bit too much. Sure Folklore is like virtuosic and

likes such. It was so like she really stuck the landing on it, and like what an incredible album reputation is Like I'll killer no filler to me, every no truly no skips and it's about like fifteen tracks, like and it says something about like wow, like the only thing you have at the end of the day is yourself, even when you're someone like Taylor Swift and you have all like in you know you or like when when people are fucking like trying to tear you down, like

you have to have this like solid, solid sense of self in order to survive something that seems completely unprocessable. Like I think, I don't know, this is so gross, but I listened to that album now and I think this is like the this is the most astute meditation on fame that I've ever like really encountered, and like I'll relate to it in that way a little bit um,

but anyway that those are my three. I also feel like her like, um, the kind of thing that she was drawing into question with the album about like fame and like how um we consume celebrity. I think that the critical response to reputation and how people are kind of immediately flop. Yeah, they kind of proved her right exactly exactly. I mean, because like I feel like when I listened to some was like my gateway drug and

too Taylor. I guess technically twenty two, if I were to like metaphorize this, okay, twenty two is like me having a little bit of weed part of somebody's like high school party. And then in nineteen in nineteen nine is like in the boom boom room and I'm like I'm doing coked. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. And so when love that metaphor yeah, thank you, thank you, um blank space was like I don't know, goodbye. Have I ever listened to a song that many times in

a row. I remember when the second the song came out, I was late to something and I stood outside already like fifteen, stood outside to watch the video on my phone. It was it really was. And the thing about that video was the way she drew so much even more She's always been like drawn self awareness into her work, but that was a moment where she was like, this is the caricature of me, and I know you think it's funny and I think it's funny too, and that

grew into like reputation, you know. I think Blank Spaces when she reached the singularity, when it was like, oh, everyone has heard this song on this video and do you remember the there was like a Grammy performance she did. I was just about to bring this up and it's such a good fucking performance. Yeah, I was, okay, So I was actually talking about one of the earlier performances of Blank Space she did where she was like levitating

and there was like fire. Yeah, wait, what performance are you talking about, though, I'm talking about Grammy Museum where she's on the acoustic guitar. Well that's also I'm sorry, yeah, but but let's talk about that because that performance of Wildest Dreams on the electric guitar, and she she she had never sounded better, and I think that that's none of her top vocal performances. She's the vocalist, she is without a doubt and like truly, like I also just

love the last full minute of twenty two. Sorry I'm jumping all over the place, but the last fumnute of twenty two is just her belting her fucking tits off, like yeah, yeah, yeah, like just like it's like any like just going crazy for a full minute, like like, go back and listen to it. The last minute of this four minute long song. A quarter of this song, the last quarter of this song was heard just fat wailing. Anyway. What do we think? Grammy performance? Amazing? I don't know

how much more I can say about it. It's just like so it's so cathartic to watch, and um, it feels like a triumphant moment for her, such a triumph and her in that like black turtleneck with the guitar and she her her hair was so good, speaking of her hair was red when she got bangs. Red was when she got was red, was when she si yes,

red was when she straightened her hair and then got bangs. Yes, god wait that is oh my gosh, yeah, the ramification truly getting bangs and straightening her hair and she has had bangs ever since. In the same timespan where Joni Mitchell said you should fucking die. Um, that was really hard. I mean, I'm kind of Joonie is like one of my be all end alls, and I'm really disappointed at her. Well it's like, but I think, but you can't be

like that girl. But I think she but like it does like play into the narrative of Taylor Swift, which is that even though she didn't get that like co sign from Joni Mitchell, Red is still her blue, and it is still her It is still her blue, and it is as I think impactful for people of our generation as Blue probably was for people of that generation. I think, so, I really think so. I mean it's like Blue. I would I would honestly say that like

control by scissors, like our generations Blue. That's real, that's really true. That's really true. But like Red is just this like Red is like epic. I don't think Blue is like epic. Red is very restrained. Red is like expansive. Yeah, but but also like what Red does is like her songwriting has never been better. Besides maybe like folks, I do think some of the songwriting on folklore is truly

still like poetic. But some of my favorite. I think the way that she talked about herself and her relationships in the lyricism of it is incredible. And she was literally, like even before she turned years old, writing these songs, like writing a song like Treacherous where the structure is verse mini chorus, verse, mini chorus, full like post chorus, slash, like bridge ish into like another mini course into like an even bigger post course, like I love Differ so

much did I say this already? It's an important album because it was important for Taylor in that it made Taylor like who she is now. It's when she crystallized the final form final form. Sorry I'm being self referential awful, but like I again, I did not care for I was ambivalent about Taylor Swift until read and then something just clipped where I was like, I'm going to be

obsessed with you for the rest of my life. Well, you know, we've talked a lot today about how formative the album Red was UM, and we thought it would be fun to talk, you know, like we talk a lot on this podcast about things that were really important to us in our childhoods UM and how we like became the people we are, So we thought it would be fun to have you tell us about the Bow

and Yang starter pack? What are the items the things in your arsenal as a kid that you know you either always need to have a round or define who you were. This is this is a really perfect framework of a question of a prompt. Um, I will say random like a sampling. It's like, let's talk about love by Celine dion Um, It's m a game Boy with like Kirby Tilton, Tumble and Pokemon Blue, Pokemon Crystal, and

then like Bagel bites from Costco. You're a Costco girl, yeah, Costco girl, and then a girl oh yes, yes, yes of course, and then um, how many how many items do people typically bottle off? You're the first one, okay, as they want? Those are three? Those are those are the three pillars Bagel Bites, game Boy and and and Selene.

But then like it's it's honestly like it was. It was a lot of like me trying to like draw my own and original anime characters and like having no one to show them too, because it was like I knew it was a little too embarrassing, like having some shame already built into like my work and my output is like truly, like it is like since day one, like a part of like since day one, you had to have learned at some point drawing. Yeah, I love to draw. No, no no, no, I mean the shame, the shame.

Oh sure, sure were cultured into shame. But like I would like draw stuff and then show it to people at school, and for a period of time it was like cool that I could do this, and then it was like and then it was just it would just literally be me like getting lost for hours just at my desk with like reams of paper that my dad would bring home from his office, um, and I would just draw characters, cut them out, put them in like a photo album with like a plastic film, and I

would just flipped through it and like beat out a whole season of like some anime that would never get made in my head. But that was like that was like a writer early thing where it was like, oh, I'm like your story, story telling, world building, yeah exactly. Okay, sorry to expose us, but did you know that Rose and I were also closeted childhood drawers. We were so much anime stuff mythology. Huh, Like you know who else?

Patty Harrison and I think there's like there's like we all need to come out of the shadows with this and make an adult cartoon series, which no one's ever done. But but fran is still a pretty good artist. He actually drew the mock up for our like our photo shoot like cover art that we're doing. So I my

starter pack would be like Jagged Little Pill. The album. Um, it would be some book and I'm going to say right now, since it's spooky season, it would be Curses Incorporated, which is an anthology series of like modern of like modern spooky stories about a boy who like buys hexes online. I'm cool and um oh, and then it would be the afghan that my grandma nit me that I used to wrap around myself as a dress. Was like I'm a girl and I used to be Dorothy from the

Wizard of Oz. There you go. Wow, I love that. Okay. Mine was definitely um Hotel Paper by Michelle Brand checked out from the library. I didn't even own it. Oh my god, We're going to have to do a Michelle Branch episode. Oh yeah, without a doubt that she was a big part of my secular awakening when I was like I discovered that everyone else wasn't listening to like Christian Christian reliant kay and it actually people also listen

to Michelle Branch. Oh my god, it's so important. I didn't know you were a Christian rock person for a second. I know the words to almost every single, every single Relying Case song in their first five albums. I've never talked to you about my switch foot phase in like middle school, high school, I had a switch with it was it was just that it was the it was right after a watch to remember when like they really were like big a cross overstream. It was there red.

It was there red, Remember there Red? But then you know what I like, I was obsessed. I thought, you know, I thought the song to any four, which is the last song off of that album, that was like the best song of all time. I would and we were like twelve, Well one day I'll be twenty four and

this is going to be so meaningful. And then you turned twenty four and you were like Switch, which I mean like the fact that like we're like shipping on twenty four by Switch, but we're still like beautiful revering Taylor. That is the power of Taylor Taylor. Yeah, I mean, like twenty one. Yes, is there? I don't know If there an, I don't know. I'm trying to do numerology

with no with no landing point. Anyways. Also, in my started back Um Harvest moon On, Oh my gosh, I loved like um games without any conflict at yes, farming game if you don't know it, Um. I was an oregonmy kid. Instead of having friends, I did Oregon. I wanted to do Oregon. I could make paper cranes really well, so could on. I can make a lot of things. I could still make a paper crane. Today had stacks of Oregony books and I had an oregonmy party, which is it was really sad. I invited three of my

crushes and they all came. That's cute. So you you were into video games, Yeah, I don't. I don't like games of any kind. I respect. That's kind of surprising to me because you were so into like fantasy and sci fi and so many things that come with the culture of gaming. Yeah, but I'm I like the actual story. I don't want to have to like play I would I would rather read a book than play a game. Sure,

but now what now? What? Now? What I know some people do is they'll just watch a playthrough on like YouTube, or they'll just watch the cut scenes of a game. So I might just start doing this now with like, I'm sorry, I haven't played the Last of Us, and I'm like, I need to know what this game is and I need to like I might just like sit down and watch like an eight hour play through anyway, Sorry, why not when it sounds fun? Do you think Taylor games? No, okay,

and that's okay, she's too disciplined. Like Taylor is the girl that watches her boyfriend play video games. You know, that's like a whole I think. I think Joe is like in his dog crate with the with the Nintendo switch, and Taylor is somewhere else. Oh I see, yeah, to get the kid that the thing. Yeah. The only other thing I could think of, maybe that Rose and I have in common is um Delaire's Big Book of Greekness. That's definitely one of the past things that I started drawing.

It's one of my first like sexual awakenings. Remember being horny for my own drawings. Yes, oh my god. I would draw like naked dude, yeah, and I'd be like, oh, oh no, is this this is going to be a problem, like I remember wow. Also when my starter pack would be Muppet Treasure Island the movie um and and um a um. And this is not like a specific action figure, but this is something that I used to do with my action figures. I might have told you this before.

When I would get like an action figure as a gift for my birthday or for Hanukah, I would open it up, you know, and be like yeah. And then that night I would um put it back in the packaging, tape it back up, and wrap it again so that I could open it again. But that's sick, that's erotic, because for me, it wasn't about the thing itself. It was about the experience of like opening it and the

thrill of that. But honestly, like very developed of you to like pinpoint that as like the moment, like the thrilling moment, the moment of pleasure or whatever, and then you recreate that and restage that like that is. But it was never the same. It was never the wow. I Love Love and I'm I'm sitting with two Henson heads YouTube YouTube. Both loved them Apo Love, Miss Piggy Love Kermit. I had a Kermit stuffed animal that like I ran ragged. Kermit's hot, Kermit's hot, Kermit is hot. Yeah, Kermit,

I'm doing the Kermit Arms. Listeners, you can tweet us your takes on this week's episode. I'm actually really excited to know what y'all think of the podcast. Rose. Are you excited? Rose? Yes? But only if it's positive? Okay, no critiquet. I'm your co host fran Toronto. You can find me at Franz Squish co on any social media you want. I'm Rose damn You. You can find me

out Rose Damn you on Twitter and Instagram. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts, and definitely leave us a review because it helps brand new podcast quite a lot. Like a Virgin is an i Heeart Radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane Chitch and Nikki Utour. Until next week, See You Later Visions Chow. Our producer Phoebe has told us that our podcast is

a Scorpio Sun Aquarius moon leave ro rising. So do with that? Why you will do that? Why you will leave a comment? If you have an opinion about it, Diam