Latin e quoth, you-jay sava-SOORAY!

don don't dump, don't I'm a finished Rose. You're putting this in serious legal tuba dum dude, du dude, dude. Well, it sounds like we have our new theme music that you're looking for. Honestly, I feel like I'm giving day Kim control. We are invoking your name today. You are with us in spirit now that you have passed on to the other world. No, I'm just saying like, I

want her energy around me. Dumb bitch as unite, right, But social culturally, a lot of people are treating her like she's dead, which I'm sure she would appreciate because not. Samantha is the one that figured it out, both in the show and in real life. She was like, oh, there's actually huge toxicity and dysfunctionality to this friend group, and I'm out, Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Let's take a little trip to New York City, a New York city that like definitely isn't the real New

York snow but not based in any sort of reality. Um, and we're going to talk about Carrie, Miranda, Charlotte and Samantha. We're not talking about Charlotte. We will have anything to say. I will talk about Charlotte and her shiny shiny hair of course. Um, this is like a Virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm Rose

Damo and I'm fran Toronto. Unlike Carrie, who only was ever thinking about what was going on in her life, let's think about what's going on in the world right now. And you know, it's good look at what's going on in pop culture. The biggest thing I think this week was Spotify wrapped hit Yes, the breaking news of Spotify wrapped, and watching so many of my ex funk buddies post about the fact that they again, for the third year in a row, we're in the top point five percentile

of Ariana Grande listeners. Very so grateful to know that my top five artists this year were no surprised to me. Number one Taylor Swift, obviously Taylor Allison Swift. Say her name, I keep forgetting Her middle name is Alison. That's so jarring. Number two was Lord, No surprise there. I love Lord. She had a new album come out this year, and you and I had the same number one and number two arts. I listened to her a lot that that tracks.

Number three Kate Bush, Yes, God, I listened. I mean Kate Bush is one of my favorites of all time, and I do listen to her all the time. Number four Livia Rodrigo Sour was big this year for me. Number five Phoebe Bridgers. This was the year that I became a Phoebe Bridgers stand What what are Bridgers stands called? I don't know, little little skeletons, corpses. Yeah, well I'm

sure there's a stand name. Have you seen Have you heard that TikTok sound where it's like someone who anytime they see someone as a skeleton, they're like, Phoebe, you are sick and you are married. So top artists obviously are all thematically linked and that they're all women. They all make like a very kind of, you know, personal

kind of music. I also subscribed to the exact same genre of music, which is soft spoken like alt girls who love writing songs about personal growth, girls that love therapy, you know what I mean. So who are your Who

are your artists? So my top artists were Taylor Swift in Lord's Same as You, then Phoebe as a as a number three coming in Hot, and then I did listen to Kasey mus Graves quite a lot this year, but I will say that it was more of continual re listening of Golden Hour and maybe not as much of the new album, which I still loved, but you know, it had its hits and its misses. It was it

was mostly okay. I don't know this for a fact, but I would also wager that m part of the reason She's in my top five is because I really love the song from her Christmas special gliter E, which she does with choice of and I'm not even a choice of on stand but the song is a really good well you are sick in the head, I'm sick in the head. So wait. So in my fifth was Billie Eilish. Interesting, Well we can talk about it. Let's talk about it. Well, I'm curious to know I'm not

a little eyelash. I you know, I have grown. I like her, but I just don't like her that much. So Taylor was your top artist, Taylor was my top artist. What was your most listen to Taylor song? It was Ivy at the number two underneath Moon Song. My top song of the year was Kyoto by Phoebe Bridgers, which I love because Boebe sings with kind of like a lockjaw and so it's like a do youen Kyoto before seven? Like she has her jaw wire chut but is singing

through it. And I, you know, as much as I loved Solar Power, Soila solo Pala really brought me back to melodrama, which all leudes back to melo drama. I all wrote. I'm ashamed to say when it first came out, I didn't love it, and so I never really gave a trail. Okay, I'm thinking of The Love Club the Love Club EP. When that came out, I just had an idea of what I wanted Lord to be, and

so when it went into Jack Antonovs territory. I felt like it wasn't my music anymore, and in hindsight, like I don't think that I was thinking about it in a very well rounded way and also didn't really know who Jack Antonoff was. But I basic all I'm trying to say, if we need to give him a break, the girls need to like take his cock cage off and give him like a year or two to to get the creative juices like refilled one, especially since I don't really feel like his imprint was really on Solar

Power at all. Like I feel like Lord really drove all of the album and pushed him. I I hear it a lot on songs like um Fallen Fruit was is maybe my favorite song on the album, and I think like that the instrumentals and the harmonies on that, to me, you sound like very Jock anton Off. Anyways, Basically I discovered melodrama and Solar Power this year, which

is why Lord is a great second. You know who else I think needs a little break culturally is lin Manuel Miranda, who um you know, love love him, has made a cool body of work. He's like very polarizing to some people, I think to the gay Yeah, but we saw Encanto on a Friday, which I loved. I thought it was a great movie. Did not love the music. UM did not also love, hate to say it, the vocal ability in the movie. I felt like the voicing

was perfect, characterization perfect, the vocal ability not. Therefore, what were media song? Well, you know, these aren't the days where you, you know, hire celebrity to voice a Disney character and then I have someone else sing the song. You know, you have someone do it all right, and not everyone can hit the notes find the note. I also, I mean, I appreciated what felt like maybe an intentionality to give slightly raw vocals, like there was pretty much

nor raw. There was like nor the raw jar, there was no there was no auto tune. I don't think or what I detected, I didn't hear auto. That was not one of the magical powers they had. For those of you that haven't seen, we're not going to spoil anything but the premises. It's like a family in Colombia that, um all, every member of the family kind of possesses these kind of little mystical powers. Um that all come down to like this magical candle that they have that

keeps this like living breathing house. It's it's a magical dipteak candle. It's a magical dipta. It's a birato candle, and it burns forever, it burns forever. Um, and this it was other outside of so we lead with the negative critique, but overall you and I loved the movie. We've sobbed. So I will say it. The film had kind of an abrupt ending and I did leave the theater with my face still went from my tear phenomen

I have to say excited for Incanto two. I don't want to spoil the movie, but I will say also a beautiful meditation on what it means to you know, upgrade your home, to stop buying Ikea furniture and to start investing in the Urban outfitters catalog, perhaps the Junglow line at Target. Um, it's about what it means to one up your interior design. I think that was I love that for you as someone who doesn't own any furniture from outfitters, as someone who doesn't own any furniture period.

That is true. Um. But I am, you know right now consuming a lot of Christmas things like I'm trying to get you to watch twelve Dates of Christmas? Would you like, are kind of refusing to watch? I'm not refusing, I'm just I have it's what. It's a watch season right now. Maybe a lot of things on my play, But baby girl, we the way we loved fun Boy Island, and this is twelve Days of Christmas is funck Boy Island mixed with the bisexual season of Are You the

one mixed with Love? Actually a little more pan sexual. But yeah, I understood what you were saying. All I've been able to think about while I'm looking at you is how cozy your skims already looks. I do not want you have to get over this because you keep like talking about skims. It's as if it's like this dirty secret you have but you every time you buy a new item, you tweet about it and they're like, oh my god, l O L no, I but another skim. It's like, girl, just accept it. You love kim crash

your skim an you're a skimmy stuff. I do you not a skimfluencer because they haven't sent you anything for free? Well, they famously do, not Like there are no skim slundcers. There's no, but they're there, but they're like actual, like famous people. But I do think I might need to get that sweatshirt. It looks stream right. You should, you should get it. Get it. Um speaking of Cozy, I've been listening to a lot of Christmas music lately and I feel like, um, you have really told, like been

sending me everything. Kelly Clarkson this sea there is there is a new Queen of Christmas. I'm not saying like she's coming from Mariah No, no, no no, I'm not saying that right, it's the undisputed Queen of Christmas. But I have known for years that Kelly Clarkson was a voice in this space quite literally. Um. I love Wrapped in Red and Underneath the Tree I think is one of

the best contemporary Christmas pop songs. But Kelly Clarkson is coming really hard for the Christmas season this year, you know, because she has a new Christmas album out. She did a song with Ari question Mark. Yeah, there's a there's a song on her album which is called Um Santanta, Can't you hear Me? Santa? Can't you hear Me? It is a bob oh. And also she just covered seven Rings on her talk show What Yes Wait it's so she ate, she ate. But the thing is she does that.

She can do that till literally any song she does. That's what she does every day on her show. She would do that. She covers a song on her show every day. I've never watched her show, but like the most annoying, Like what's like the most annoying song, like Felice Navidad? Like that song sucks. And I say that as as a lad person, I think it's fun. Felice Navidad. That is the most annoying Christmas song, point blank period. Anyways,

I love this for Kelly. I feel like, um, the thing that makes seven rings is the fact that Ariana Grande does not enunciate a single word. And Kelly Clarkson is a theater girl, and so she will give you you know what to do to die today? And lyrics are important, as I was reminded this week when I, out of curiosity, listened to Joshua Bassett's new song do you know who Joshua Bassett is? I remember him as the full subject matter of Hour You're right he is

the subject. He is the uh co star of Olivia's from High School Musical, The musical, the series um who she dated, and it is widely known is the breakup that inspired sour and like most famously Driver's License and trader Um. He dropped like an ep I. Guess this week. I only listened to one song because I heard it was like the song that was about Olivia and it's called it's called crisis, and the first lyric and it is my My label said to never waste a crisis.

So it's kind of all about like using pain for profit in the music industry. On Wednesday, Okay, sorry, honey, you wasted the crisis. This happened months and months ago, like he did not, but it's still like it was trending, like the girls were fighting, um he and so like in the song, he basically accuses her of like, you know, reframing everything to make her look like, you know, like more of the victim in their relationship than she actually was.

Like he even he even eludes the fact that she was the one who broke up with him and not the other way around. Oh, that's a serious accustion, and and that like you know, he was like reaching out to her and all she was doing was you know, like you like making the best of a crisis and becoming famous from it, and you know what, baby, it worked. She went to the Taylor Swift school of turning your

interpersonal drama into un profitable art. Yes, I don't think it's surprised going to be surprising for anyone to hear that Sex and City is deeply were to me was extremely formative for me. Fran was it for you? You know? Um, it is very easily a top three favorite TV shows for me of all time. But I didn't start watching it until late college, and then I think I didn't finish it until I moved to New York like five

or six years ago. I think it's like a distinctly like kind of like late twenties early thirties show because they've grown out of, um, they're still really messy, but they've grown out of a lot of like, you know, things that you're doing like your first like kind of decade of relationships and doing relationships stuff, and now alongside that they're dealing with all this adult stuff related to getting an apartment, getting a job, like all, you know,

the things that the show kind of followed. It is people who are a little more settled into their selves and their identities on their careers. Like it's not a show where you know, Carrie moves to the big city and like has to figure out what she wants to do. Like she starts the show as an established writer. Everyone else is like established in their professions. You are kind

of dropped very immediately into all of their identities. And then it's this thing that I'm now finding as I get older, when all of that stuff is kind of figured out, like when you have a stable job and income and like basically all of your basic human needs are met, then you start being like, oh, what else is there to focus on love and relationships? And it's like that is so ta I've never thought about it that way. What do you think people think misguidedly about

Sex in the City. I think that people take for granted the fact that despite how like problematic and of its time slash dated now it is, it still is a really deep show that introduces ideas that were ahead of their time. That doesn't mean the whole show was head of its time, but there's so many different encapsulated moments and ideas that have stuck with me as a

person forever period, even though it's also so stupid. Well, if you have been living under a rock or I guess are like a teenager and you don't know what Sex in the City is about. Sex in the City is based on a column that Candice Bushnell used to write, and it is a fictionalized version of her named Carrie Bradshaw, And it's about Carrie Bradshaw, who's a columnist for the

New York Star, which is not a real newspaper. She writes a weekly column called Sex in the City where she talks about her romantic exploits and also the exploits of her friends, um, and which I also like, did her friends read her column ever? And we're like, um,

can you stop talking about that my personal life? Okay. Actually, the only time that her column does affect her personal life, which it should every episode, but the one episode where I did was when she is dating of the politicians, yes, which is the only guy that she really should have stayed Well he is what one of We'll get to this later, but like it is one of my favorite love interests for Sherry's and maybe the whole show, the one who wants her to pee on him in the shower,

which is like such a fine ass, but that's the thing is that okay. So if we were to talk about, you know, the things that people get wrong about the show, the things that they get right about this show is that it is so kind of prudish, prudent. Well, Harry is the worst sex columnist the word. She is such a prude. She wears a bra to bed, she never unless,

she never curses. She's like so sexually unadventurous and so boring, and so she all she does is mine her friends personalized for her column because she isn't getting any not she's doing missionary, you know, like she just has the most vanilla idea of like what it means to have sex, because all of her ideas around like sex and intimacy are too tied to a storybook fairy tale of what love is, and I think it convolutes the goals that she actually has, and therefore she doesn't have anything. Well,

Carrie is a romantic at heart um. But thankfully the show is rounded out with characters who have different perspectives on love and sex and dating and relationships. There is Miranda, who's a high powered lawyer who very much is like guarded and doesn't want to let love in. There's Charlotte, who is you know, like um an art gallerist weirdly, which makes her feel like she should be much more

progressive than she is. But it's actually like a park Avenue Pollyanna who just wants to find Prince Charming and get married. And then there's Samantha who is a publicist and a very good publicist, a very good publicist and a sex positive icon who just wants to fuck her way through New York and has They are all like um,

identifiably very good at their jobs. But what's confused thing is that Carrie is a columnist and still like she shouldn't make that much money, but she can still afford like Manola blonics and an apartment that has a corner you can turn. Yeah, but like this is a fantasy that to me is like when people have critiques of sex in the City, that one which is like, how does she afford all those shoes? It's like, no, don't, baby, we got big we got bigger fish to fry. I

think it's she's independent. It's a it's a fantasy. It's not about that, of course, but of course you couldn't afford that, But like, if you really want to if you really want to find like some kind of rational excuse, like Carrie Bradshaw's an it girl, she is maybe like a proto influencer that I was going to say, a

primordial influencer for sure. I feel like, um, if we were to kind of create a maybe a little bit of a rationale for the writers, I do think that maybe in this age, when did the show come out? So inn maybe this was before print media crashed. Do you remember this was like during the newspaper but the cave the caveman ears of the internet and in that era,

but actually premiered. Okay, so in that era or like a little bit before that era, like writers were getting paid really well, Like you could get paid like a few thousand dollars to write one feature and you have like a month or two to write. She definitely could have made a living off of her column, but not the kind, not the kind of living she had. They do make allusions to, like she's in an extreme amount

of credit card debt. There's a you know, there's an episode in season four after she's broken up with Aidan where she has to like get a loan from Charlotte to buy her apartment. She says, I'm literally going to be the old woman who lived in her shoes. Wait, wait, let's break this down quickly, because it's actually that she needed to get a loan from Charlotte. It's that Carrie looks at her bank account for the first time in her adult life, and she goes, Oh, I'm a ba

billion dollars in credit card debt. Charlotte. If you don't lend me thirty dollars, you don't love me and you're not my friend. She literally does that. You know, I actually always used to think about how much money, like in that episode Carrie sees is in her checkings and savings account, and have kind of like helped that to myself as like, I never want to be at that point where I have like as little money as carry the number in it. I want to know, she says it.

She says she has like seven hundred in her checking and like fifteen hundred and savings, and she is so I wonder how much credit card that she had A lot I have a well. There's an episode in season one, The Power of Female Sex, where Carrie Um goes to buy a pair of Dulce and Gabana canceled um, fuzzy shoes and the cashier cuts up her credit card because the company told him to do that. Like, can you

imagine any whatever? Can you imagine going to Trader Joe's and they're like, oh, the like you try to use Apple Bay and they're like they told me to do this. They take your phone and throw it on the ground. Can we imagine your Trader Joe's cashier crushed doing That's not speak of him because I'm I think I might have to go there later today and he's going to be there, and I'm like not prepared to see him. I love that you said that. He's like because I kind of cute, you know, in his shifts. I I

do know when when my Trader Joe's crushed. Trader Joe's cashiers are diabolical. They are trained, They're trained in the art of seduction like James Bond villains. It is disgusting and insidious. Speaking though, of crushes and love interests, you know, obviously a huge part of Sex in the City is all of the different love interests that Carrie, Samantha Brandon, Charlotte have had over the years. Who is your favorite of I guess like, let's start out with like the

big ones. Samantha, you know, she is mostly about sexual exploits, but she does have some very significant relationships, which are Smith Jared and Richard Wright. Charlotte has her two husbands, Harry and Trey. Miranda really kind of only has Steve Um. Well, she has a lot of like yeah, yeah, but Steve is the main relationship. They all kind of high key dates, some like really busted men. And then Carrie has big Burger Aiden and Alexander fucking Petrovski. Oh, I forgot about

the guy, the fucking aggression guy. I forgot about this. So of for for all of the women, who's your favorite of their relationships? Unfortunately I am extremely basic and predictable. And I do think that Smith Jared is is so gorgeous and a really good lover to Samantha, and he does invite her out. He he kind of invites her out of her old ways, like he says, like, Samantha, you have intimacy issues, you can't really love someone. I'm showing you away that I can love you, but you

can still be your own woman. And I thought that that was actually really well done. And even though he's so much younger than her, that they are perfect, a perfect match. But in terms of who I am like, I have absolutely been the Miranda in a relationship with at least two Steve's, if not three, and and every single time it's like this guy who is an abundance of like Golden Retriever esque love, like wants nothing more

than to just love and hold this person. And I'm Miranda, like cannot understand or comprehend why someone would love me, and so I hold that person at an arm's length and it creates all of this at tension that that rings true for me as well. I like what you said about Smith, Jared. I do think that I like Richard right because he's the person that first really cracks Samantha open and like the relationship ends in a very

devastating way. But is that the one that ends with the shot with a dance in the shot with the shot a song and the I don't know anyways that know they go swimming to a shot I song? Um? But yes, um. Richard is the first person who kind of makes Samantha vulnerable. And even though you know, obviously we love Samantha being the like bitchy slut icon that she is. I also like those moments where she gets vulnerable.

Interesting about the four women's Loves Love Lives is all four of them, like throughout all six seasons are dealing with basically one singular intimacy issue, and all all four of them have intimacy issues for different reasons. It's like Samantha has conflated like love with sex and only pursue

sex and can't say love around that. And then Charlotte has you know, a worm brain that has been you know, demented by I don't know, Anglo Saxon Christianity, and she thinks that like women should be pure and wives and like whatever, and it makes her enable unable to likely.

I also think with her it's that she thinks that the way things look is more important than how they actually are, which is what you see happen with her first marriage with Trey, like is on paper the perfect husband and then they have all of these intimacy issues and end up getting divorced. But I mean, I am team Tray because he's played by Kyle McLaughlin. I mean that he's so fucking sexy and Kyle McLaughlin is He's so good in that role it's such it's a perfect alrighty,

a true character like character. And he gave us Bunny McDougall, his mother, who is one of the best character she I honestly, I don't know if she's alive, um, but I wish she was going to be in and just like that, I wish she was replacing Samantha right, Oh my god, that would be incredible. So and so Charlotte, Yeah, it's like caught up in this idea of like being

a wife. And then Miranda is the quintessential like I'm not in love with a man, I'm in love with my job girl, Like she is like conflating herself worse with with yes, her career and like how she goes to work. And then Carrie is caught up in this fairy tale esque idea of love that is an artifice

and like not real, you know. And but for me, like with Charlotte specifically, I think it's such a dag that she got married to Kyle McLaughlin and had they had never had sex, and only after they get married

she discovers that he can't get an owner. But you know what, like you you think about sex in the city, and like when you think about the sex, you like immediately think about Samantha, but I think of all of them, especially in the early seasons, Charlotte has the most boyfriends and has the most sex because the tension comes from

her values like bumping up against what men wanted. And also I think the fact that deep down she was like an embodied sexual person as you see, Like I love that scene where she and Trey are working through his his impotence and like they've been talking about the whole like Madonna horror dichotomy, and she's like, I'm a woman, Like I'm not a Madonna and I'm not a horror And like I think it's a really like nice moment of her like owning her sexuality, and she gives us

in the early season some of the best like funniest moments dealing with sexuality. Like I always think about the scene in the cab when like one of her the men she's dating, wants to do anal and so she picks all the women up in a taxi and they're they're talking about it and like carry lights a cigarette and the cab drivers like you can't smoke in here, and she's like we're talking up the butt a cigarette was required, and then the cab stopped short and Charlotte goes,

what was that? And they go a preview? But umm, like talking about anal sex on TV, like no one was doing it. To my point, That's why, like, there are so many moments of the show where it's just like, oh, that really was ahead of its time. I really want to know who your favorite like love interests were. But you also reminded me of a quick moment where when Charlotte dates that guy who like checks all the boxes.

He's like basically perfect, except for the fact that every time he comes he goes, you fucking horror, you fucking bitch, you fucking horror. And every time he does it, she's like, why did you say? He's like what, I didn't say anything, Like he just like blacks out. It's really funny, Like that is like that stays funny. That's that's another thing about the show that I really adores. Like, yes, so much of it is so dated, but things like that,

it's like that will be funny for decades. Anyways, Who were your favorite love interests? Who what we've already kind of talked about like some of the other women, but I will say like, I think some of the biggest divides are about Carrie's boyfriends, because Carrie is the main character. And I do think like in a way, she's kind of like an avatar for the audience, Like she's a little bit of an every woman. And I am not team Big. I am team Aiden. I Okay, I knew

you were a team Aiden. However, Big is your type. Big is one of my type, one of your types, one of my types. But I think actually Aiden's are the men I go for, so when I go for men's. So if you were to answer that question, Aiden is

your favorite love interest, He's for Carrie, definitely. He's Aidan is the love interest that causes her to grow the most um because of the things that she experiences through him, which are cheating on someone getting engaged like Aiden really forces her to grow up in a lot of ways. And I just think he's he's really hot both times he shows up when like the first time when he's a little more crunchy, the second time when he's a

hair kind the haircut furniture designer. He makes her that amazing chair that's in her apartment, which I love the fact that he makes like furniture is actually like two on the nose, and he has like a house up state, doesn't he. Yes, a lot of suffered and very relatively a lot of the women's love interests are kind of oriented based on the fact of whether or not their love interest owns property, like the fact that, yes, that's relatable people just because they had a place on Fire

Island exactly. I definitely stayed with a guy for like an extra month because he had like an apartment the Upper east Side that his parents paid for that like I needed to like live in from n And also, let let this be said, like I think it's prescient that I bring up that Fire Island analogy because this show was created and for all of its run helmed by gay men, and even though there were a lot of SIS hetero women in the room, I do think that these characters, to varying degrees, do not do not

actually behave like sis hetero women. They behave like gay men. That is, yeah, I'm sure there's something. Yeah, And then and there is like an element of sex in the city where it is like gay men's ideas of how SIS women engage in the world. Yes, oh my god, like oh my god. That's so oh my god, Rose,

you just blew my mind with that. That's so true because like they're so kind of like again like very rudimentary ideas of like sex and intimacy, because intimacy, because like gay men have these issues, and like, if there's one thing we have to thank Michael Patrick King for it is that he is an arbiter of gay idiot culture. And that, to me is like something the show does really well is like these moments where it doesn't matter

how many times I rewatch it. When Samantha has sex on viagra for the first time, I will rewatch that scene over and over again until I die. There is nothing funnier another episode that does feel like it's it's something that happened to a gay man, Yes, exactly, but you know, I think the seeds of that are planted

really early on. You know, there is obviously Sex in the City is a big part of queer culture, and there's so much potential for queer readings of it, and the show itself sets it up from the very beginning. You know, Carrie's first question in the entire show, you know, obviously she has a question in every episode. Her first question is can women have sex like men? Which is

like the show starts off with this gender subversion. We're blowing my mind right now, Rose dam I never thought about I have thought very deeply and critically about sex in the City, and I also consume a lot of like very smart people's takes on sex in the City. Um, if you want, you know, like a more continuous version of this conversation we're having today, I would definitely recommend you check out the podcast. So I got to thinking,

which is um, Juno Dawson and Dylan P. Jones. They go through episode by episode and give like a contemporary queer reading of sex in the City. But as I was saying, you know, the show starts in this place where I think women had and I think they even say this in the show, Um, this is the first

time in the history of the world. They do say this in the first episode, this is the first time in the history of the world that women have had as much money and power as men, And that very It's a great pilot episode that it like very succinctly sets up the worldview, the universe and the you know, the questions that the show will will be exploring and a lot of them are like very deeply about gender and sexuality in ways that like, yes, I think have

been you know, largely applied as the show has grown in popularity, have been largely applied to since hetero relationships. But there there is queerness insects in the city, both in terms of like what's on the page and on the screen, and also the people who are behind the scenes and in you know, the people who are consuming it and like applying it to the ways that we

think about ourselves, our identities and relationships. So you have very you have given a very salient reading of like implicit queerness in the show, gender role reversal, gay men as avatars for these women, etcetera. Um. But there is also like literal quote unquote queer characters and moments in the show. Well, I mean Stanford Blatch, Willie Garson rest in peace. We've talked about him on this podcast before

he died a couple of months ago. I think a lot about the episode where Carrie does a runway show with Dolce and Gabana canceled um, and there they basically keep making things for her and she's not really satisfied with them, and no one's really listening to her, and Stanford is like behind is like behind the scenes on the Runway show. She's like all dolled up, and she's frustrated because she feels like she's not being set up for success. And she turns to Stanford and I wonder

if they did this knowingly or unknowingly. But she turns to Stanford and she says, Stanford, no one is listening to me. All they're doing is telling me I'm fabulous.

And to me, it's like a very meta moment because the failure of Stanford as a character is that all the women and characters of the show do exact like that to Stanford, Like, he has a lot of like human moments and a lot of nuance, but for the most part, he is and the quintessential like accessory of like a friend, and more often than not, they don't care about his life or his interior and interiority. They're just kind of like, oh my god, Standford, your fabulous.

He has a couple of you know, like b plots in episodes, but the fact that they made him marry that asshole like like that it's so annoying. You know. We'll talk about the second movie a bit, but like it's so it's so basic, like Michael Patrick King really to have the only two gay characters in the show marry each other when they have actively hated each other

for the entire series. And not just that, but like the guy, the guy that isn't Stanford Anthony Marantina a great actor, but the character openly makes fun of Stanford's appearance constantly, even like at his wedding, And it's like that to me, was that's hard to watch, Like and I someone who loves crass humor, loves like asshole humor, loves veep stuff like that. It just didn't transcend. Yeah, it's just it's like too easy, like try harder, write better.

But that is, you know, throughout Sex in the City, Like obviously, you know, we say this is a show that is very of its time. That means that the times when queerness was presented in explicit ways, it was very very of the moment um in uh not not great ways, like you know, of course, there is the episode in which Carry dates a bisexual man and like completely repeatedly invalidates his identity. Easily one of my favorite

episodes to date because so profoundly bad. Yes, and she does kiss Atlanta's morrist at the end of the game of spin the bottle. My favorite part about that climax is, like, you know, she spent the whole episode being very dubious of queerness by sexuals, that it's even a real thing. Like Samantha has this whole moment where she checks her and to me, it feels like it's reading on cultural sentiment at the time. Maybe criticism of the show at

the time was Carrie, why are you supprued? And there's a moment where Samantha maybe the writers took this into account or like took this feedback. Samantha says to Carry, like carry for a sex calumnist, you're pretty close minded, Like, which is such tea, such tea? And I don't know how they weren't, you know, saying that to her every

episode every episode. But one of the one of the few episodes that like explore that has a queer subplot that I think actually kind of gets it right a little better is the one where Charlotte Um becomes friends with like the lesbian mafia who are buying paintings from her art gallery and like really wants to be one of them and like it like shows off this really cool, fun rich group of hot lesbians. And ultimately, like Charlotte is told, baby, if you're not gay, you can't hang

with us. You can't keep like you know, like string so long. Um, and she's like, if you don't eat pussy, you don't belong here. Yeah, but I do. I do like that that like moment of a queer person asserting that a straight person can't literally gatekeeping in the best

way possible. But that the resolution of that episode, to me, what I was saying before about the bisexual episode has like a similar kind of like like kind of like resolution where the characters kind of spend this whole arc being like very doubtful of like a queer culture that any of this is real, and then they have this crystallizing moment i e. Kissing Alanis Morisset or Charlotte deciding whether or not she's going to go on this ski trip with these art buying lesbian mafia people, and um,

you know, after she kisses Alanas Morrisset carries just like, well called me old fashioned, but I'm a homophobe, and she like walks down like the kind of like Brooklyn Warehouse, like walk up, and she's like, I also love that in that that episode, she's like devastated by the prospect of like going to Brooklyn, Like she like doesn't consider it like a viable thing. But at the end of the chart of that Charlotte episode, I I do love

that she kind of maybe understands her place. And both of these women in these two episodes, respectively, are looking to be included in our basic are struggling with the idea of being included in something that they don't actually belong to, something that isn't for them, something that isn't for them, and they, as white women, cannot actually fathom that, and that's why they get as far as they do,

you know what I mean? Yes, Um, And you know there's there's other little moments of queerness, like the episode where UM one of shares and it's it's funny how Charlotte is the one who kind of like and keeps interacting with this UM. Charlotte has a client and an artist of the gallery who does these UM takes these photos of drag kings and has her dress up in drag.

And it's when she's in drag that she becomes like sexually powerful and that the man is like into her, and it's like such a great moment of gender fuckory with no explicit kind of like you know, criticism on like the gender of it all. It's so like unset,

but it's still all there. Yeah, and um, of course you know Samantha does date a woman, Maria, Maria, I just I just like my my favorite moment of that whole thing is when Samantha takes them out to dinner to tell them and she goes, yes, ladies, I'm a lesbian, and Miranda's like sitting right there like the fun you know what I mean, like I and the women have

like the worst reaction to her telling them that. Like, of course, we've all had that experience of you go out with a friend, they tell you something, and then you leave with your other friends and you just spend the whole walk home talking shit about this. That is

extremely relatable. It is also still very problem out. Yeah it's sucked up, but you know, not to give these women the benefit benefit of the doubt, but Samantha is I'm a lesbian, yes, And Samantha is very prone to one hyperbole like, ladies, I'm a yes, but to like saying shitty things for attention, like Samantha loves doing that, and so I think they are kind of trying to.

I mean, Samantha speaks in memes, yes, yeah, she does, and they're they're both they're obviously being like openly homophobic about it, but they but they down to the bottom. They see they understand Samantha, Samantha's character and her personality, and that there's something about this relationship that is doesn't quite lader up now now I'm just thinking about like iconic sex and the City Line readings that I have

to say this before I forget it. But when Miranda finds out she's pregnant, Um, there's the scene where she and Carrie go to get pizza afterwards and they're like talking about what how Steve wants her to keep the baby, and Carrie's like, well, what if you did? And Miranda's like, you know what, You're right, Fuck my life, I'm having Steve's baby pizza for everybody. And it is like the one of the funniest moments in sex in this Do you think that Miranda should have had the baby? Yeah?

You do? Yeah, I thought that she shouldn't have had the baby. I actually like that it is. I think her keeping the baby is so much more interesting from a story perspective when when you're thinking about Miranda specifically, and it does turn the character of Miranda on her head, you know, oh yeah, it's it's what forces her to

open up a diametric and let love in. Um. While we're talking about, you know, problematic queerness as it is represented in Sex in the City, we have to talk about season three, episode eighteen, cockadoodle do do we have

to talk about it? So earlier in season three, Samantha moves to the fashionable meatpacking district, which, as Carrie said, is full of friendly neighborhood transsexual And it should be also quickly mentioned that in season three there is a tree odd of what are maybe the three of the most problematic episodes of the show, which is the episodehere Carry dates a bisexual and then right after that the episode where Samantha dates a black guy, and that's the

whole plot is the fact that she's that he's black. And then this third episode where this the trans women in her neighborhood are like introduced. Yes, in the last episode of the season, you know, Samantha is trying to live her best life in the meatpacking district, but she can't because there are you know, trans sex workers out her window who are making too much noise, and she like calls them like basically every slur you can call a trans person um refers to their anatomy and really

gross ways as to all the other women's. Um. She uh pours a pot of water out the window onto one of them, UM like and yeah, and they throw eggs at her in retaliation um. And then ultimately the episode and with them all having a lovely barbecue together on her roof when they again like make a joke

about one of their you know, Genitalia. I forgot that they have this like kumbayam moment and and oh and and Carrie definitely does like a black scent um in that in that episode, which is like so, but she is wearing an amazing vintage Louis of Baton like romper while she does it, So I guess it's okay. I wonder, and this is like so complicated to an earth like I wonder what my reaction was to it watching it

for the first time. I also wonder, well, when when did you watch it for the first time when it was airing. I mean, like, where were you in your life? I was a teenager so and I'm also wondering though, like, even though this is awful representation, was this one of the first times that I understood what a transperson was?

Did Sex in the City introduce me to that? Like, because I'm trying to think of what other portrayals I would have seen, and they would have been like ace Ventura, Rocky horror picture show, and then probably this episode of Sex in the City. Yeah, so like as problematic, which you know, I hate that word because it's just like so overused. Um, but it in a way like is was part of me even forming like the beginnings of

an understanding of trans identity. So that is that is the legacy of this of of like this era where you know, um, there was all of this media being made that kind of like popped the lid off of how people were living like more progressively in cities like New York. Like you know, they were putting queer people on the TV screens of people in Middle America, but

you know, not not in the best way. You know, New York City really is like this adjust as you're saying a fifth character in the show, but it's not the real New York City. It's like, um, an Emerald City version of New York City. It's like a New

York City where everything in that city is exaggerated. And something that I do appreciate about the fact that it may have moved so many people to New York City or you know, in the reverse, injected a lot of things that Manhattanites were talking about, um into the rest of the country where they're not talking about, which must have been like maybe for some people of barrier of entry because um, you know, we were texting about Gossip Girl this week and you were saying, like, this feels

so insider baseball, Like they're making all of these references that like, how could people who don't live in New York even understand them? And I was saying, well, like that was the whole thing that the original Gossip Girl did, which was really following the Sex and the City playbook.

You know, they were talking about places and things and references that people who are watching the show, like know, in the Midwest or like in Florida or like whatever, still still enjoying it and having no idea what they were talking about still love Broad City, and that's like all New York, but it also created this fantasy version of New York City that then the people who eventually went there, they're going expecting the New York City of

sex in the City. And I do think like that fantasy version of New York like does exist for the people who believe in it, who go there and who like go on Sex in the City tours, and like even me, you know, I, um, when I moved to Los Angeles last year, my last weekend in New York, my best friend and I did, like he he had rented a car, and like we went around to all my favorite places in the city and not even just my favorite places, but like the most kind of like

quintessentially New York places. Um, we went to CATS's Delhi, We went to mid Town and went to Wicked. Um like not I mean, this was during the pandemic, so obviously wasn't open. We didn't see the show, but we just like went to the theater by the Wicked Theater, and and we like went by my old apartment on the Lower East Side and we went to Carrie Bradshaw's apartment, which is in the West Village, like her apartment is

like in the show is uptown. That's like the actual like building that they filmed in is in the West Village. And there's like a little there's a little sign, there's like a little chain so that you won't go on

the steps. And where do you go after that? To Magnolia Bakery because because it's right around the corner, and like also is like a Sex in the City like spot, because there's a scene where Carrie and Miranda have cupcakes outside of it, and like Sex in the City put places like Magnolia Bakery on the map, which we are not grateful for. We don't need Magnolia Bakery on the map.

And it's because of the prevalence of Magnolia Bakery that after you know, those moments in the show, all of a sudden, every block had a fucking cupcake shop and the arrow where do you not like cupcakes? Cupcakes are stupid? They are there. First of all, cake in general is like an unfinished idea. Okay, I have I have no space to hold I'm not holding space for that conversation. Well,

that's because vanilla dessert. You are a vanilla cake with vanilla Frosting Girl, and that says everything that Magnolie Bakery. They're not the best cupcakes in New York. I do think the best cupcakes in New York are at Billy's Bakery and Chelsea on Avenue. But I will not hear cakes slander on this podcast. Well, you know, we're talking about kind of the legacy of Sex in the City and the ways in which it has like stuck around

in pop culture. You know, the show ended UM and the set, but it didn't really end because then, of course we had Sex in the City the movie, which I do remember like going to see the midnight release of UM. I think the first movie is really good UM and a great translation of the series to that medium, but Sex in the City to Oh my God rotted. I mean, I think they're both really bad in very

different ways. But you and I watched the second movie together and it had been a long time since i'd seen it, and I mean, for the versions, they must know that. Like we clicked it on, we were like, oh, you know, I think we were like winding down for the evening. We're like, let's just watch the first fifteen minutes of this, and then we watched the whole thing. And it's not it's not a short movie. No, it's not.

And and I will I will definitely I can say without a doubt if it's not the most problematic movie I've ever scene, it's like one of the most egregiously problematic movies I've ever seen, for reasons we don't need to get into, but are mostly around what um the writer's idea of like the Middle East is. Yeah, you know, I do. I had forgotten about this. There is one scene in the movie that I really like that UM,

I want to have stuck with me. And it's the scene where Charlotte and Miranda have a drink at their hotel and talk about like how hard it is leaving their kids at home. And it's the first time in maybe the entirety of the show, um, except for UM, some of the scenes around when Miranda was pregnant and there was the tension because Charlotte hadn't been able to conceive where Miranda and Charlotte acknowledge that there's this thing that that unites them, which is motherhood. That the two

characters don't have a ton of like moments together in general. Yeah, UM, this thing that unites them, which is mother hood that the other two women don't share with them, don't want to share with them, and like really can't understand and it and I think it's a really nice scene in an otherwise terrible movie. I so, I I think, um, culturally it's terrible, but I would rewatch that movie unfortunately anytime, Oh to see Liza Minnelli sing single Ladies. And also

I mean, yes, I mean we can. I mean we don't even need to get into the wedding, but I do think, you know what, one of the greatest cultural contributions of that year, Liza Minnelli covering single Ladies, I mean, one of Beyonce's best songs, most beloved songs, really what put Beyonce on the map. Yeah, definitely, definitely for the virgins that don't know we are being facetious, it is not Beyonce's best song. But like I I unfortunately really

and again problematic. But my favorite scene in the movie, aside from the scene that you named, which I remember like watching it together and we had just been watching scene after scene after scene after scene of like the worst garbage, laugh out loud trash we had ever watched, and then that scene happened, and we both kind of turned to each other and we were like, oh, that was that was really nice, Like you know about this,

like we recognize it immediately. But right after that, there's this scene where you know, they're kind of like rushing out to catch their like Emirates flight or whatever out of the out of the country, and um, they need to go back to the soup to like get Carrie's wallet or something. And as they're rushing through the soup, Samantha's like bag breaks open while she's like in heat.

She's been off her like menopause meds, which I like as an ark for her character and all that stuff, and he literally she's readers out there literal heat and also and she's having a hot flash. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's what they call it, right, I know that I'm being Yeah, um, when all the condoms spill out on the floor and they know, like all the people around them are like, oh my god, these women have sex. That's crazy. And she stands up and she holds the

condoms in her hand. She's like, yes, condoms, condoms. Yes. It's like it's just like moments like that where it's like, okay, like the show can handle handle slapstick. Samantha especially does slapstick so well, so well, and Carrie does too sometimes. But I think, um, the main issue with the movies, and like I know you said they're bad, I don't think the first one is bad. I think the first one is a great movie, well setting aside of course

the Jennifer Hudson stuff. Oh and also speaking of Jennifer Hudson, if anyone wants to see someone bring up the Uglyton Purse to Jennifer Hudson in person, I did that when I interviewed her at the Cats. What did she say about it? Um, she thought it was very funny that I thought it was super ugly, but she liked it. But you can you can go look on my Instagram

into that interview. Um. I think the problem with the film is that they, like of course, as Sex in the City went on, it became less and less grounded in any sort of reality or like realistic version of New York City, and both Sex in the City the movie and Sex in the City to what they increasingly do is they completely detached and blast off from reality and Sex in the City to just like does not

take place in our world? And what I am kind of seeing from all of the like trailers and promo we've seen from and just like that, which is the Sex in the City UM continuation reboot revival show that actually launches the same day as this podcast episode. It does look like it's attempting to bring those characters back to some kind of reality. You see. I guess we'll see how they do the in the writing. To me, that feels like it'll almost like ruin makes the show good.

It's almost like what I enjoy about the show are its moments of a reality how it is so as you said, like off from this plane that we're on in terms of like human relationships. Um, but you know,

I do you know it could happen. Yeah, but I do think it's kind of like the only way it works and also like and also the only like justifiable reason to bring it back because we are, like, especially in the moment we're living in, like still in a global pandemic, is like we definitely don't want to see the same level of like fantastical extravagance that that like I think Sex in the City was known for, Like I want to see these characters be just a little

bit more grounded in reality, And I think like since it was first teased, like do you remember this time last year, the first teaser for and just like that came out and was this kind of like grainy video on the subway, and not to me was like a signaling of Okay, this is taking place in a more realistic version of New York than we have ever seen, because none of these girls have ever taken never ever.

And I think I think Carrie is on the subway at some point, and and just like that, I hope that it doesn't suffer from you know, something that I think is a reboot problem, wherein the show is way too obsessed with the idea of correcting what was wrong with the original to create a good story for the reboot. I think that happens with things like you know, the

Will and Grace reboot and others like it. Um, I do as you're saying it, Like I have faith that like Sex and the City is one of these singular things that because it is actually all around such a good show and such good characters, that it does have the capacity to evolve and still be entertaining. I really

hope that that's true. Yeah, what I wanted to do is apply the critique to the show in a way that, at least from the casting it looks like is actually it's actually doing without getting to as you said, caught up in like see we learned our lesson. We have sat Ramirez playing a podcaster, um, which I do feel like right now we're giving very much. You know, Carrie Bradshaw's podcast. Okay, so she does have a podcast in the region. I think so at least that's what it

looks like. Either she's like a guest on someone's podcast or she has a podcast. And she also, weirdly was wearing the Heart of the Ocean necklace from Titan I never would have noticed that, but that is so Yeah, I saw your tweet about that. It's so true. The looks, I must say, like some of them have been good. They're not quite giving what there's us to give. But that is like because Patricia Field is not part of the reboot, and Patricia Field is what made Sex in

the City the fashion jugger, not that it was. And of course I want to know what the tea is with Samantha because as we all know by now, Kim Cantrall refused to do the reboot because of tensions between her and Sarah Jessica Park that were like season's long tension, the whole I think, the whole show, which is like kind of devastating to know that they hated each other, because their chemistry is incredible and I think, and I think like more than any of Carrie's singular relationships with

other women, the relationship between Carrie and Samantha is my favorite because Carry is the only person who Samantha lets herself be vulnerable with. Carrie gets that out of her, and you know, it's it's just sad to know that that was maybe all acting and that they hated each other.

But obviously Kim Cantrell was asked over and over again about her involvement in the reboot, and she said something to the effect of, like, I don't ever want to be in a situation for even an hour when I'm not enjoying myself, which is gold, which which has been like you know, refracted through the internet to just the meme of I don't ever want to be in a

situation which I you know, rings for me. Well, no matter our thoughts on the show, I think it must be said that, you know, the person that Carrie was destined to be with was Miranda. Yeah, it wasn't Miranda, it was No, it was actually John Sladdery's character. Like Carrie really could have enjoyed a life of love, happiness, being wiped up with an extremely successful man while getting piste on and wearing vintage Halston, Yes, wearing vintage Halston.

Being a piss queen, the piss queen that we know should piss are go piss girl. Um. Now I think it's time to talk about the question that you know, like which Hogwarts house are you? Is like a touchstone of like I guess we'll say, like millennial BuzzFeed culture. Yeah, this is actually kind of insufferable. I feel bad for the gen zs that listen to this podcast. But you know who who? Which of the Sex and the City girls are you? Well? Actually, which one do you think

I am? Rose? Um? Okay, you can only pick one and on this sun Moon Rising ship. Okay, Um, I'm gonna say you are a Miranda. That's correct, Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, I would say that you are I mean, okay, I actually would say that you're a Samantha. But I think you know that you're Carrie. That is rings true for me. It has been kind of the like not struggle, but like evolution of my life. Is when I first watched the show when I was a teenager, I was like,

I'm a Carry. And then when I got older and like sex in the City became something I liked in um maybe a more ironic way, which you know, we we reject. And when you get to that irony period, you grow to hate carry, yes, and you go to hate carry, which is something I've held on to carry is not a good um. So like at that point in my life, I you know, it was like I'm

a Samantha. Now I have swung back around and like I see the parts of Carry that I don't like, our things that I don't like in myself, and I do I think I'm a Carry, which in a way is like kind of the most boring answer, because like Carrie is kind of meant to be a person that you can like that you can graft yourself and your identity onto pretty easily. And when it comes to side by side comparison, I mean it starts with your shopping addiction.

It starts with my shopping addiction and my propensity for wearing Bras to bed, you know, you're like I would never but you know, it's I think it's about like Carrie is incredibly selfish and also but like if I'm being more generous, like carry as a person who asks questions, who is very curious about the world, like unfortunately a lot of it dead ends with her own experience. But I think I have like that same level of curiosity.

I think, you know, as I talked already about why I'm a lot like Miranda, I think that self involved nous is you know, maybe an attribute that all of the women have, and I see that in Miranda. For me, it's like the conflation of like self worth with your career and how that makes you like hold men at an arm's length. But I will also say that you and I do have a lot of Samantha esque qualities, even if we're not Samantha. And every time I take a quiz, do get Samantha even though I know I'm

a Miranda. Well, you know, I think next week we'll talk a little bit more about if any of our hypotheses about and just like that came true, And next week we will be talking about a truly one of my favorite holiday movies Last Holiday starring Queen Latifa Canon and we will be having Ira Madison, the third Queen Latifa Expert, to come on in and give us a little holiday episode. So please, um, if you have never seen it, watch Last Holiday, pay for it if you must.

You can call to confess a thing that you just are so obsessed with. You have to show your best friend what it is. You can call us at three to three pennants that is three to three seven three six to six to three. Also, please um tweet us your thoughts about this week's episode. I want to hear. Are you a Samantha or you a Charlotte? Are your Miranda? Are you a Carry? Are you a Stanford? Are you a funky spunk guy? Who you know? Who are you?

I'm the funky spunk guy. I also will say we've been getting a lot of great reviews on Apple podcasts. Please keep leaving them. I'm Rose Damn You. You can find me online at Rose Damn You on Twitter, Instagram. I'm fran you can find me at Franz squish co wherever you want on social media and sub stack. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts and please leave us a review. We really want to hear what you think. Like a Virgin is an

I Heeart radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Unter, who does identify as a Samantha, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Just Cranechitch and Nikki Etre. Until next week, See you later, Virgins Lulu, Dude, dude, dude, you really hit that last note. Thank you so much. On the nose