Lady Cheesecake Factory

I think I also, I guess self identify as a well, maybe not reformed musical theater girl, but a recovering musical. Recovering is a good way to put it, because it is a disease that we will be dealing with all of our lives. So I guess it's appropriate that we are talking about the biggest movie musical of the moment, West Side Story, in fact, one of the most famous

musicals of all time, dare we say? And she is back in the conversation, back in the spotlight thanks to the recent adaptation, And you, before seeing the new Spielberg film, had never seen West Side Story. I was a true virgin. I'm so excited to unpack that because this is like a virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm ros dam you and I'm for in Toronto, and before we decides if we're the Sharks or the Jets,

we're going to talk about today's pop culture amazing. Let me just pop half an atty and going. Our news section today is mostly just what we have been watching on TV because I don't know that in the current state of the world that either of us are doing much. Although you, you know, you newly are a toot toot bee beep girl, so I guess you've been, you know, zooming around town, zooming around in town, making my way down to the car impoundment lot where my car got

towed because everyone that was my fault. So I showed up to friends the other night. We were going yeah, yeah, I shut up to Franz the other night because we were I thought we were going to watch and just like that and a Marvel movie to prepare for our upcoming Marvel episode with Jill Can Booster. But I've got to france apartment to have them say that their car

had just been impounded. And then and then I learned from you but Trayer that you had already watched and just like that, Um, right, right, well the boy Is We watched and just like that, and I felt like Steve is really done dirty to see Steve. David Eigenberg, the actor who plays Steve, should sue HBO for the literal character assassination they are pulling on Steve, because, like, I get that these characters have aged and there are different people, but that is not Steve. That's not Steve.

I was reading about how David actually has hearing loss in real life and that's why they decided to write it into the character. But the way they're writing it is offensive and it doesn't contribute anything at all. It's honestly, like, not even his hearing that is I think the problem with how he's being portrayed, like him turning up at the farmers market and being like, oh I forgot my wallet,

um at the pickle stand or whatever. It's just so not the Steve that we knew, and it feels like a betrayal of all of the time we put into that relationship and all the time we've spent being horny for Steve. Steve was always really good to Miranda, and the first movie is about him cheating on her and like them deciding to like stay in their marriage. And I think like one of the hallmarks of their relationship

is they've, oh, has had really good sex. And I mean, I think the scene where they tried to fuck in the kitchen like was actually kind of it was so great. Um, someone I followed TikTok was saying, you can't watch and just like that, as if it is a reboot of Sex in the City, you have to watch it, as if it is a show with completely new characters who you have no context for, and just like take it at face value and it will vastly improve your enjoyment

of watching it. And I think that might be how I mean to start approaching And just like that, I do. I do not know if I would be invested in a lot of these characters if they weren't connected to a cinematic universe that I was already in love with. I I think that honestly, it feels like I'm watching Are You the One? Season eight again, and I feel like what is happening here is sh Ideas is the one that Miranda thinks she's in love with thinks is

like because because she's doing weed. Yes, because she's doing so much. I need to know I've done strong. What strain of weed is JD as smoking? Because smoking a dent THC counts TIVA because like almost in the same way that Shad is like a caricature of a queer non binary podcaster, the caricature of like a stoner, which is I thought we were done with that, and like, weed doesn't do that to you. Any of the behaviors that Miranda and Cha are like exhibiting cannot be explained

away by being two stoned. Yeah, don't use weed as an excuse for your shortcomings, especially in such a lazy writing thing. Yeah, especially people that say, you know, they didn't finish a Marvel movie because they were too stone They fell asleep during Twilight because they were too stoned. Like grow up right, Yeah, maybe you should look in the mirror, Arangela. I have to say, the biggest thing on my mind is Yellow Jackets. I must tell the Virgins that I did watched the entire series in the

week since we last spoke. Thank god, I'm so happy. Top line finale. I was a little disappointed, extreme I was extremely disappointed. To me, it was not a finale at all. The way I've been trying to think about it is I guess this isn't the kind of show we were all saying it was, because everyone, especially the people who have been watching it week to week, a huge part of the online discourse about it has been theorizing what was going to happen and like you know,

what's the symbol? And is Jackie live? And like who killed Travis? And like like the questions, a lot of questions, a lot of mysteries, and I think we were all expecting the finale was going to answer those questions and it really didn't. The only question it answered is like how Jackie died, which was sorry lame because when I so,

I didn't hear like your conspiracy theories. I legitimately didn't listen to that part of our podcast, but like we did talk a little bit about what we could think could happen in the finale, and what I said to you is, I was like, when you were like, Jackie's not dead, I was like, I think it might be something worse than death, you know what I mean? And I think you know, the way she did die is

kind of that, but it was very anticlimactic. Yeah, well that's what I'm saying is like, I think we're looking at the show the wrong way, and it's not a show that's concerned with setting up big mysteries and then answering them. It's really it's it's yeah, it's not who done it. It's like a character study of these traumatized,

fucked up women. And I think it like, instead of going for the plot satisfaction of answering all those questions, it gave us the like emotional quote unquote satisfaction of that really like gut wrenching moment when Shanna find Jackie buried in the snow, and it is choosing character over like some kind of twisty thriller who Done It? And

like I do understand that. At the same time, like I don't think that's the ending that they were setting up throughout the season, and that's why it feels disappointing. So I just think, like there could have been a more satisfying wrap up. I did like some things, like I thought Tyson's wife finding her like Altar with the doghead was like really good, and like I think a lot of us called like weeks ago that she definitely

killed a dog. So I wondered like, does that mean she was part of the cult on the island who kidnapped Natalie. I guess Lottie like is going to be a bigger character than maybe some of us expected. I felt like right away from the beginning that Lottie was going to be like the deer head leader or be like this kind of quasi cult leader that creates a division in the island. Sorry, not on an island. It's keep thinking it's lost, but like this, this is gonna

be seasons of them stuck in the wilderness. Okay, Like, what do you think is going to happen next season? I think that the people that captured Natalie are Yellow Jackets conspiracy theorists, Like there are people that are obset that are obsessed with the lore and mythology surrounding the Yellow Jackets girls, because it's like a haunted thing that

happened in this town. And so I think these like haunted conspiracy theorists have been at play in killing Travis in like the symbols that it keep like popping up everywhere. I think it's just an entity that is going to be part of like the villainy of season two that was never in season Why interesting. What do you think?

I kind of feel like we're going to find out that Lordie also survived, and you know, because she's extremely wealthy, like runs some kind of like shadowy organization and is still doing all the like weird ritual stuff back on the mainland. You know, I think that that the idea of her orchestrating all of this is like that is so spot on, it makes complete sense. I love we'll see and like, what nineties icon actress is going to

play older Lottie? Yeah, especially now that the show is a hit, like they have to get someone that is on the Christina Ricci level, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, virgins, you should give us your picks for older Lotties. Who's your pick for older Lottie? And why is it Dakota Johnson. Dakota Johnson is not old enough? I completely disagree. I think she's not her forties or fifties. I think she could be forties or fifties if she wanted to, but

she's not. I don't think she's like the Bill of Like, I think they need another iconic nineties actress like Christina Ricci. Okay, so live Tyler. Yeah, I'm never not talking about I'm just thinking of Burnett's. Um, I mean, when a writer has already been used in the show like this, so that wouldn't really make sense. Who else is of that? Like kind of kitchy like late nineties like weird girl core,

Heather's era. Let's get Nev Campbell in it. Nev Campbell, But Nev Campbell looks too much like Julia from the Crowd honestly, no offense, but like Juliette Louis kind of looks like Nev Campbell. If like Nev Campbell, like I don't know, was like shrunken a little bit, can you know what I mean? Um, I am aware that you still haven't watched Euphoria, which is I'm gonna I'm gonna reserve my commentary because I'm gathering energy from you that you are maybe actually going to watch. I am going

to watch it at some point. I'm just not in a rush to watch it. Yes, you know what I am watching on HBO that I don't think you're watching is the final season of Search Party. Oh. I actually watched the first three episodes, so, UM, when I think about end of the world satires and millennial commentaries, satires I think that Search Party is like the most successful

one I can think of. I think that this season is a really huge swing and a complete departure in genre and even subject matter in a way that I appreciate. But I'm kind of having a harder time getting through

it because it is so off the rails. But there's nothing that I'm disliking per se, especially when it comes to like commentary about social media cults, which I mean, that's the part of Search Party that I really like is how just when you think like these characters have made the worst decisions they possibly could, they're able to

take that to the next level. I love the idea of Dory as like a cult leader figure because like, one of the things this the show has hit over and over again is like her extreme narcissism and the level to which it like has become harmful to like her and others. So it makes total sense that there would be people in the world who would find that narcissism incredibly appealing, because that's how cults work. It is, and it's it's funny how the narcissism of each individual

character creates these little swirls of like problems. Like I love the Little Demonic Child. Um it's it's giving, It's giving Orphan, Which did you know that there's a sequel to Orphan coming out called Orphan First Kill. I'm never going to see either of those movies. Well, that's disappointing because Orphan is one of the best films ever made. Not to blow up your spot, but I am aware also that you are watching a season of Drag Race

right now. Yeah. Well, I have been watching the new season and I guess I was just like in the mood to like binge something mindlessly that I could be on my phone during for most of it. Um, so I'm watching Drag Race UK season two. I've also already forgotten every queen from the second episode of US fourteen. That's fine, I can help you run them down. There was Maddie Morphous's straight Okay, I'm gonna give it. I'm going to give a controversial opinion. You thought she was good.

I didn't think she was bad, and I also like you wasn't bad. I also like didn't really have an issue with her being on it because here's because let me let me like give an explanation why I think it's like it's weird when you consider the framing of her as a straight man, and like the fact that they keep bringing it up, and I wonder if that's more a production thing then it's her thing, because I just like, obviously I'm not going to like ascribe any kind of identity to her, but I feel like, if

you are doing that level of like gender fuckery, even if you still like have heterosexual sex or like sex with you know, the opposite gender whatever, you must identify

as like a little bit queer. That's why it's like hard to watch because as much as I want to believe that Maddie really is truly heterosexual, I just don't understand the appeal of her art form if you aren't, as just as you said, at least a little bit queer, which is why I loved that Rue right from the jump kind of dragged her a little bit, like exposed her in the workroom, immediately knowing full well that these

girls we're going to be like, what the fuck. Well, that's why I think it's a production thing, because like, yeah, it is. I'm not saying we shouldn't like gate keep queer art too straight people, but it was such a conversation when the casting was announced, and I just think it's like a lot more benign than it is like

being kind of made out to be in the discourse. Yeah, as much as I hope that one of the girls will come from Maddie in the way that we all want to come from Maddie, I don't think any of them are going to be that girl. But in Untucked, when Maddie is trying to describe all these things about being a straight person and drag, you can see just the light leaving all of their eyes, like all of them like nodding and smiling, trying to be like encouraged

and be like, yeah, girl, you're a great ally. We're proud of you. Like you can tell a lot of these girls have things that they're thinking that they're not going to say because they're on reality television. We should have been we should have been this time talking about not Maddie morphosis but Angeria. Oh she was amazing. I did I really kind of be Angeria versus corn Bread In the final two. I thought Georgia's was so fun

to watch, like high energy perform. You know who I was confused by was a lady Amden, because like I feel like that's the equivalent of someone being like, I live in London, but I was born in New York City and my name is Lady St Mark's you know something. It's like, it's just stupid. I mean, not to get cute, but like I was like, you're not I mean, you're American, but you're not. It was confused. My name is Lady Times Square. Yeah, I'm Lady Universal Studios, CityWalk. I'm Lady

Oh my god, Lady cheese Gg Factory. Okay. So I was like pretty ambivalent about even seeing The West Side Story remain. I think we were a little excited. I a little, but not I think the level I would have liked to be considering the fact that I love the original so much, I didn't know what could be improved upon. But I mean, obviously there's a lot of stuff about the original West Side Story that's bad through the lens of today, but it's such an amazing film,

and it just felt like a weird retreading. But like, generally I did like the movie. You went in with no totally in the hands of Steven Spielberg Antony Kushner, where you like this is like I trust this, or where you immediately like have it have it feel a

type of way about either of them. Um, Spielberg felt like a weird person to be doing it because I'm like, I guess his career is so weird to me, Like he comes out every couple of years with like what seemed to be very like narratively disconnected movie is like ET two AI to West Side Story. Also, he did Rogue Player one right, that was him Shutter Island, Like what what is he? What is he making movies about besides just making like big spectacle blockbusters that come out

on Christmas he famously or not famously. He did say in interviews that he had been wanting to make West Side Story since he was ten, which I was hard to say. Sorry, sorry to say it, Um, But maybe Tony Kushner hadn't inducted him into the Fago tree that is this musical because it was concepted by four you know, affluent white Jewish gays. Anyways, what were you expecting going into it? Like, knowing kind of nothing about the musical?

You know, my full pretty much, my full context of the musical came from that one time that Share played all the parts? Do do you know? Yes? I know I did actually learned quite a lot from that performance of it, like it kind of top lines the plot, which is for the virgins, I guess an adaptation of Romeo and Juliet, but it's kind of like whites versus

Puerto Ricans as these two like street gangs. These are white and Puerto Rican street gang, the Sharks and the Jets, and two of the characterists fall in love and that creates the Romeo Juliet capulate versus Montague kind of scenario. Yeah, if you have never seen West Side Story or Romeo and Juliet, like that is the basis of it. It is star cross lovers who can't be together because their families hate each other, and then one and then there's

death at the end, death to all of them. But yeah, exactly, and you know my literally everyone dies. Yeah, I mean that's Shakespeare. Shakespeare was kind of the George R. Martin of his time. He just loved to kill everyone's favorite I'm being facetious. Is just that George Armartin loves to kill your favorite character. He was the m c U time if Shakespeare even existed. Yeah, I wonder Shakespeare. I mean,

Shakespeare didn't really create a cinematic University. He didn't really loop any of the s s tu the Shakespeare theatrical universe. We'll get we'll get back to Shakespeare. But anyways, so I have I have a long history with West Side Story.

You don't have, um. Weirdly enough, West Side Story is like inextricably linked to the Rocky Horror Picture Show for me, because I had the vhs of both of them when I was a kid, and it was like when I was like trying to fall asleep every night when I was in middle school, I would put on either West Side Story or Rocky Horror Picture Show and that was what would lull me to sleep. And it was like one night to the other, it was either of those.

So I have a lot of love for the original, even though I know it's like very problematic, like the brown face and it is what it is. It is what it is and Natalie and Natalie Wood isn't singing. Um. So I guess, like I understood why why you can make the argument for the need for a new version

of West Side Story. But I guess, like to me, the thing was like, Okay, if we're going to do a new one, why do it in the most obvious way as like a big budget Steven Spielberg movie, like do something a little more interesting, because in recent years there have been like there was a Broadway revival of it, or like an off Broadway revival that was pretty popular, although there was like something problematic with it, like someone in the cast had like it was maybe like a

sexual assaulter. And then that happened that the lin Manuel Miranda one wasn't no, and then that happened again in the movie because of Ansel l Gort who right, yeah, who was amazing that he had a beautiful singing voice. I thought he sounded pretty good. His voice was gore, I mean, coming off of Incanto, I was like, wow, these are some pipes. Anyways, Okay, let's talk about let's talk about the movie. Let's talk about you know what, what did you like? What did you get from it?

I actually quickly have to when while we're talking about like context for West Side Story, this is relevant. My mom played Anita in her high school production of West Side Story. Like yeah, way back when, but growing up, my mom told us all that she was Maria because I think she was ashamed to be like this kind of ravishing game. You know kind of character, or maybe she just wanted you to think she got the lead because well, well know, I mean the other thing is

my mom. But Anita is the better role my mom. Anita has the best song. I agree with you, however, America, my mom, this is honestly reintroducing my mother and as a character, and on this podcast, my mom was ashamed of what was a stereotypical kind of like feisty, sexy Regan woman and Anita in the o G. Not so much in the new adaptation. But in the O G she's supposed to be kind of like a almost like a bimbo. She's supposed to be very you know, so

like kind of saucy. Um. I don't know. I think the way that she's written is pretty like Anita gets Anita knows what's up. She's the one who like clocks Maria instantly rum. Well, anyways, my mom was also the lead in her high school rendition of uh Greece, and she was Rizzo, but she told all of us that she was Sandy, who also is a slut at the end. But my mom literally, okay, I think this is your mom wanting to rewrite history and saying she got the

later role. It's not about being the lead, it's about being embarrassed that she was cast as a slut. But again, also in Greece, Rizzo is the best character. Again has the best song. It has nothing. It has everything to do with my mom's shame and therefore our shame. But my mom didn't tell us until I was like a late teenager. Does Vanessa Hudgens energy because Vanessa Hudgens famously played Rizzo in Grease Live? Oh right? Did she actually ever?

Did Grease Life? Actually go? Grease Life was actually very good? Was it the best of the I think it's the best of the live musicals that I've seen. And she Vanessa Hudgens famously, um did it the day after her dad died. Oh my god, No, her dad died that day. She still went on well, as Vanessa Hudgens did one say people are gonna die. So I actually did love the new version, the Disney version, which I didn't even

know it. Okay, what did you love there? Um? They were just multiple moments where the cinema combined with like the performances and hearing the music for the first time in that capacity, like hearing it all together, which I had never experienced before. I think was just there were moments that just left me literally breathless. Like I thought that so many elements of like the songs and how

these characters like came together were really beautiful. I thought that kind of the attention to try and update some of West Side story and inject like a little more quote unquote authenticity into the narrative. I despite critics, I actually felt like a lot of those moments were successful. Do I think that the show is an overall authentic portrayal of Puerto Rican's No, not at all, um, But I do think the things that they tried to improve,

um were like pretty good. Did you notice any of the things that they like tried to update by chance? I think I was mostly focused on the ways they tried to my den eyes it in terms of the romance of it, which, well you know that. I think they try to make the case for why Tony and Maria like are so in love, That's why they have them go on that date to the Cloisters. But it's like,

I don't know. I saw this movie on Christmas with my best friend Ryan, and he made this point, which is that the melodrama of West Side Story and like the Shakespearean aspect of it is what lets you excuse the fact that the day after Maria meets this boy, she fux him after he kills her brother. And like, it's only through like the grandiosity and like suspension of disbelief that you allow yourself to be okay with that

as an audience member. And in this movie, with them trying to make it more realistic, it's harder to sell that be because it it is attempting to be more grounded. And because of that, I'm like, why did she just fuck him after he told her he killed her brother? Yeah, there's just no real way to like, honestly, this is

we're giving notes to Shakespeare at this point. Let me like, I feel, I think this isn't no because Shakespeare isn't right because you believe it in Shakespeare, but in this movie that's trying to be realistic, I don't believe it. I also just like didn't I didn't think they had good chemistry. I didn't believe their love story. I okay, a few things here I didn't so original. Shakespeare doesn't sell me on that that romance. So that's where I'm coming from. I I do love like we'll get into

like other adaptations Romeo plus Julie, et cetera. I think that there are versions of Romeo and Juliet that like, I love. However, I do think that it's it's a really tough source material to modernize in terms of like emotional honesty, like emotional coherency, to to pull off just as you said, I fucked this guy that killed my brother one day ago, you know what I mean, and

that now we're married. It's a lot, and I honestly feel like so I watched it with our friend, Justin, my one of my best friends, and he was a true, true, true version. I at least had like some context of

the of the show. Justin knew nothing about West Side story, and so the gymnasium scene, like the school dance, which I think is actually the best scene in the new remake, the second Maria and Tony like start to fall in love, Justin turns to me and he's like no, he like had no idea, and he was like, wait, this is bad, like and I was like, yeah, dog, Like that's the CONCEI of the whole dog. Yeah, I said, yeah, dog, that's like the consie of the whole thing. It was

so watching him digest it was really entertaining. And when we left the theater, the first thing he said was, it's kind of crazy that he killed her brother and she still wanted to be with him in the end. And I was like, oh, yeah, I think that's, you know, an issue with the Shakespeare. And he goes, what do you mean, and I was like, oh, it's an adaptation

of Romeo and Juliet. And so I felt like that was a testament actually to what what's really difficult to pull off, which is that if for some reason someone going into it doesn't know that it's an adaptation of Shakespeare, which I think Justin is a very rare case of that, it is actually really confusing to watch. Don't you think like if you were watching without knowing that, I think so because you I think if you went in totally blind,

you would not understand a single choice that's being made exactly. Okay, there are things I did like about it. Okay, so what it looked nice? I guess, um, you're like muscling through giving trying to give Tony Kushner a compliment. Arianna Debos was amazing. She is incredible, and I thought she brought life to this character. And Anita is my favorite character in the West Side Story and has America was always my favorite number from the show growing up, and

I thought that was done so well. Um. I thought Rachel Ziegler was good. She's you know, has a very pretty voice. I thought the show in general was kind of perfectly near perfectly cast. I think some people are mad that, like, it wasn't all Puerto Ricans, like Rachel Ziegler's Colombian. Not everyone in the cast was perto Rican, but like, I felt like everyone's great. Even Bernardo was great. Um, the guy who's the other, the leader of the jets, he and I mean he and Bernardo should have kissed.

They should have. The vibe was there. Oh and Rita moreno, Oh my god. Basically Rita gave me the hardest cries I felt throughout the real I did not. Okay, here's the thing. I did not feel one single emotion throughout the entire thing. Didn't cry. It didn't it was nice. It did not move me. And West Side Story should move you, Yeah, it should. I felt nothing. I had to pee. That was all I felt. Really, my emotional response to it was like I think, in large part

because I had never seen it before. When I left the theater, that's when I started to digest more and more what I watched and feel like less enthusiastic about it as just like a cultural object. Like I I there are a lot of things that I didn't like, but I think it starts with like the things that they tried to fix, which I think our valiant efforts still didn't really sail for me, Like like the this Tony coming back to his best friend Riff and like Rita Mano's like I guess, like his like kind of

mentor whatever. There's this like thin critique of the Carcelral system going on like that Tony's like back from jail and he doesn't want to go, you know, back into the doghouse. So what was a good number was Officer crub Key? So you liked all of Officer crub Key? Yeah, I liked the group numbers. I did think the choreography could have been better. I agree. I I don't think they wanted to like dress up you know, Jerome Robbins

too much. Like I feel like they just wanted to, you know, keep it to what it was supposed to be. But I agree with you. I felt like to me the gymnasium scene was a lot, but Officer crup Key specifically, which had high involvement of the new edition of this trans character, which we should talk about, I thought, was like kind of fine. It's interesting to me that, like in the original, Officer crub Key is kind of this, like, what's what's so funny? I'm just thinking about the trans

thing now, It's just so funny. Why is it funny to you? I just like I had no idea that was a thing going into it and didn't know. And I'm shocked like that I wasn't more aware of it, that it wasn't like a conversation, and that there wasn't like someone on Twitter like not my West Side Story or whatever. But I think that's kind of a testament to how benign it really was, Like it really is

like I think I would. It feels like lip service, and I feel a type of way way of it because there were so many articles and so many press releases about the new edition of the trans character the West Side Story, and like all these I didn't sa. That makes me feel really happy about the state but my algorithm is in that it knows I don't want no discourse. But for those of you that don't know, there's a character in the O G. West Side Story

called anybody so who. I don't think that. I don't think their name is ever even mentioned in the original. But anyways, it's this girl quote unquote in the original that wants to be a part of the boy gang. And in the new version they basically make him a trans guy who is trying to affirm his gender by

being a part of this gang um. But in Officer cub Keys specifically, he kind of like, you know, plays around with the guys at a moment where someone like he's trying to correct someone like basically calling him a girl. And I was like, this is all very interesting, And then they sing Officer krub Key and still included. Even though a lot of lyrics were edited in the adaptation, but they didn't take out the transphobic lyric in this song.

Did you notice that there's a transphobic lyric where they say my sister wears a mustache, my brother wears a dress, and how it's like a big it's like a the reason their family is sucked up and they're all sucked up. And I was like, the trans person is literally in this scene. And you had the foresight to edit these other problematic like lyrics, but not this one. Where did the trans character come from? Like was Stephen Sondheim like

we have to make this character trans? Or was someone like we have to put a trans character and that was Tony Kushner. I think Stephen, Stephen Sondheim and Tony Kushner were on one because they swooped in and they were like, whoa, this is already extremely problematic, but it's like totally our dream to make this musical, so let's do it and like the wokest way possible. That's kind of what it felt like. And I think the trans character is a is a Kushner edition it was. I

wanted to nuance it. I do think like it. They took Jade as as woke like applied momentum. Hey, it's but I don't think the trans character was actually like unearned, like if you look at the source material. I didn't mind it. Yeah, it was just a weird choice. Yeah, but there are other things. It's like, you know, there's a moment where all of the sharks sing the version of like the Puerto Rican anthem that's like the revolutionary version.

It's like the pre kind of updated version where they talk about like taking out their machetes and how they want it's about like overthrowing the government kind of. And so the fact that they inserted that was like a pretty big like wink, Like they hired a lot They obviously hired like a lot of consultants of this project.

Rita Moreno was also an EP, and I think that given her history, like she's so consistently vocal about things that bothered her about West Side Story in general, that I am sure that she probably had heavy insight and how the adaptation was created. I liked that they what they did with Doc as a character, making it Rita having her sing somewhere um and like her being the one that like rescues Anita from her assault, which is, you know, a tough scene to watch. But again, Ariana

Debo is like so good. I'm I'm just like so excited for her in her career and like she had such a great year last year between this and Shmia dude for the Okay, So for the virgins that don't know the Doc character in West side story is basically like the apothecary guy in Romeo and Juliet who bestows the poison to both of them question Mark, and they're like, hey, here, here, here, teens have this like elixir so you can have your suicide pack. Like this is gonna be Like that's literally

his whole role. So I guess in the updated version is just like you know, a quack doctor just given out prescriptions. Um, well not actually, but it should have. Maybe that to me is like what you said earlier about how they didn't take it fair enough. I totally agree. Like I feel like if they're gonna do it like it should be or could have been, like much more radically reimagined, like almost the way that Romeo plus Juliet did it, which is one of your favorite movies. Oh absolutely.

I I love Shakespeare, let's get that out of the way. I'm a Shakespeare girl. When I was in fifth grade, I found the complete works of William Shakespeare on my dad's bookcase and just like, read it, read the whole thing, nerd um. And I have loved Shakespeare ever since. And like that came out like around that age, and I've always been obsessed with Shakespeare. Juliette is my middle name that I did pick for myself, which is beautiful. Yeah it's a little corny, but whatever. Um yeah, I love

love Shakespeare. What's your favorite Shakespeare it is? I think we have this same one. I think it's I think it's Midsummer, followed closely maybe by Winter's Tale minus, followed closely by The Tempest, Love the Tempest. I think The Timis is a little boring. I think it's like his weirdest play, which is why I really like it, and his last play, which is also a reason that I

love it. Shakespeare works in multiple genres. It's like romance, comedies, tragedy, comedies, tragedies, histories, comedies, histories, tragedies, and problem place. The ones that he like didn't finish, I guess. And also they don't fit into or the whoever Shakespeare was although you know, because they're all those theories about like was Shakespeare real? Like was it written by a woman? Are there many Shakespeare's? Shakespeare in Love? Um right, I do love Shakespeare and love I watched

it kind of recently. I haven't watched an ages. I would love to watch it for goop and goop alone. That's how you called Gne. You call her she goes by group. She's good in it. It's just like she should not have won an Oscar for it. She won an Oscar one Best Actress. That must have been a slow year. No, it was because Harvey Weinstein campaigns really hard for it. That makes sense, though, I mean corruption will always win. Um, what okay, So what's your favorite

Shakespeare adaptation? I mean I think it's the same as you. I think it's it's Romeo plus Juliet or She's the Man. I was just about to say fallow Gloves. Yeah, yeah, She's the Man, I think, which is an adaptation of twelfth Night. Yes, famously. Um, I mean Shakespeare, like Shakespeare is so gay. There's always cross dressing. There's the implicit

gayness of the cross dressing on stage. Because if I don't know, if you if you skipped history, Um, at the time that shakespeare plays were you know, being produced while he was alive, women were not allowed to be in the theata. That's why the women were played by men. Shakespeare is very gay. Well, that's why Shakespeare wrote it. It's like he was trying to fulfill his like you know, fantasy of like men kissing by have these men play women on stage. He's basically like a medieval version of

when you make your two tender kiss. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. Do you like McBeth? Have you watched? Are you? Do you plan to watch the Tragedy of Macbeth? Um? Probably not, because they use the O G dialogue, right. I think that that I um a D H D kid had a really hard time with the original dialogue. I think with Romeo plus Juliet, it's all imagistic to me, Like, I I retain like the world building that bas Lamon does,

but like not a lot of what they're saying. Oh. But I think that's one of the things that works so well about Boss Lerman's Romeo and Juliet is that it's the juxtaposition of the Shakespearean language with the contemporary imagery. And like what he did so well was make that language feel authentic to the action that was happening, and like it's not restrictive, it doesn't keep you from understanding what's going on. And I think it's all it's like

in the direction, it's in the way it's performed. Really, Shakespeare was like what made me fall in love with language. Like in addition to his plays, I really loved his sonnets. You know, I took a lot. I did a lot of Shakespeare when I was like, you know, a theater kid. Obviously gay sonnets. If I had stuck closer to theater in college, I maybe to have like gone a Shakespearean root, oh, like made it like a primary study. Yeah. Maybe I

took a lot of Shakespeare classes in college. Yeah, I just I love the Bard and I say, I agree with you on the bas Lerman movie. I think that like that the way that they performances who work like helps you understand the dialogue and are really beautiful. I thought it was totally successful. It's definitely my favorite. And that's seeing where they see where they see each other for the first time, and um through the fish tank is so perfect, and like Leo is so beautiful in it,

Claire Janes is so beautiful in it. They're both they look they are the cutest lesbian couple ever. They really are. Oh, speaking of back to She's the Man, did you know that some of her best work it actually I'm not you're saying it with yes, we are being I need the Virgins to hear that we are actually being completely genuine. That is a Manda Binds magnum opus, not just because of her performance, because their performance What a Girl Wants She's the Man. I used to watch What a Girl

Wants the TV show every day after school. I I used to know, wait, do you mean the show that she was in with? Oh? Right, it's about what I like about you? What I like about about you. I thought they were, for some reason the same story that they spin off into a TV show. I have a totally different things. Oh, I had no idea. I was going to say, did you know that She's the Man is the movie that Amanda Binds used to platform and create Channing Tatum's career. Okay, so this is a really

good little tidbit. That's why we have Channing Tatum. Literally. So Amanda Bindes talked about this in an interview. But when she was working on She's the Man, she was obviously like one of the most famous people on the planet. She was like so prolific, she was making so many movies. She was so beloved amongst generations that she had so much hour when she was cast in this movie. The romantically hadn't been cast. Yet at this point, Channing Tatum

has had a few cameos in like little movies. He was on the famously the cover of Out magazine as like a model wrestling one of these other fags that have you seen that vintage Out magazine And so he's literally pretty much undiscovered and they didn't want to cast Channing Tatum and Amanda said no, no, no, they everyone's going to fall in love with this guy, like trust me, and they were issued at but she had so much power at the time. They were like, we're going to

do what Amanda wants. We're gonna cast Channing Tana and then his career was born. Another thing about Amana Biands and She's the Man. So there's this TikToker Hello Taffy, who does these really great series that are like deep dives into pop culture. I would love to have her

on at some point. Um. And she did a series on Amanda Binds recently and was talking about how Amanda Byns was made incredibly dysphoric by watching She's the Man and it would like kick started a lot of her body image issues, like remember watching herself on screen as a boy. Um, I'm just still actually really sad about the unraveling of Amanda Bynes. Do you like this song? I feel pretty okay. So this is a very contentious song. And like the history and criticism of West Side Story?

Did you know that? I didn't? Okay, So this has like a Sondheim connect But like, do you know how they created West Side Story? Okay? So the four white facts that created West Side Story Arthur Lawrence, Leonard Bernstein, Jerome Robbins, and like Sondheim in his first ever project, they all set out to write something that was about Jewish discrimination. But they had been sorting through the story.

They're basically trying to break the story. They were like, you know, a bunch of bros in like California trying to like you know, make this musical happen. But they couldn't crack what kind of the heart of the show

would be. And they pulled up like a completely random newspaper article and like Los Angeles newspaper about a Latin gang fight in San Bernardino that had happened like the day before or whatever, and um, basically this is the same time as Ration, which is like when all these like Puerto Rican migrants, like hundreds of thousands and then moved to America and primarily to New York, creating like new Orrecans, and so there was like this public weariness

of like too many Puerto Ricans in America or whatever.

So all these stories about Latin gang fights were hitting the newspapers, and these four guys found one of those like newspaper articles, and they were like, wait, this like Latin gang fight thing is like kind of the this is kind of a story, Like this is a thing, and like in like the kind of I guess biography of Leonard Bernstein, they talked about how when they came across this news article, they were like, oh, making it about these teen gangs is going to make it much

more timely. And Leonard Bernstein literally said the whole Puerto Rican thing had begun to explode, and like the biographer even said like if they hadn't found this news article, he doesn't think the musical ever would have been written,

which is crazy. So it says a lot to how the show was concepted that a lot of the characters sing in these very operatic, like kind of aristocratic ways, and I Feel Pretty was specifically one of those songs that people would take issue with because they were like, these are a bunch of Puerto Rican women singing like

white women, and what is that? But I feel I guess I always felt like that was kind of the point of I feel pretty like it's it's like, um, it's like a pantomime in a way, and I do think like they that's kind of how they approached it in the movie is like Maria there, you know, cleaning this department store, and she's like fantasizing about this perfect

life that you know she doesn't have. Right. Well, that was the fix that Kushner and Spielberg tried to wedge in because in the original they're not in like the Gimbals department store. I think they're like at home or something like that. But Sondheim himself like is less proud of that work he talks about and he specifically points the fact he says, um, the play on words in Pretty Wonderful Boy drew attention to the lyric writer more

than intow attention to the character. He said, I had hoped no one would notice anything but the cleverness of it. I was wrong. And in this interview he literally throws his other like like colleagues under the bus Like he basically says that like he he was too young, and he wanted to fix the lyrics and wanted to authenticate and make it more true to the characters, and that his the other guys on the show were much more

senior than him, which makes sense. Like basically, like basically, you know, Rue was like, which of these other girls should go home tonight? And like Sonheim was like all of them, like they suck and like they're the reason that the musical is terrible. But to me, like this, I never think of West Side Story as a Sondheim musical because, like, you know, I think the works that we really think of as Sondheim works are ones in which, like he was totally in control during the music and lyrics.

But it's also such a testament to the fact that he did have this incredibly long career and has truly

had a hand in shaping American musical theater exactly. And I think that what he said about West Side Story specifically is emblematic of the musicals he would go on to create, which is characters that match the actual songs, that match the actual lyrics, and all of that together has a like a psychological honesty where in this is like kind of I mean, you know more about musicals than I do, but this is kind of the cusp of whin Sonheim started to make more musicals like that

before that. It's like Rogerson, Hammerstein's, etcetera. Where it's like we're cowboys and they're Indians and we're going to sing a song about it and that and now we're in love and that send do you know what I mean? What's your favorite musical? Okay, come back to me, what's yours? Um? Phantom of the Opera? Okay? Which is isn't it technically an opera? I guess it's a music music, a musical opera. It's a music. No, it's a musical okay because there's

dialogue and opera is has no dialogue. Oh right, yeah, yeah yeah okay. Um. Wow, Phantom of the Opera is your all times, all time fave. It is to me everything musical theater should be. It is a spectacle. It's bombastic, it's ridiculous, it's overwrought. It's like I'm laughing, shooting, crying, throwing up. Um. I saw it um when we were in New York actually shooting um. Our cover art for

this podcast. Um. I saw that the night after it had reopened on Broadway, and my friend and I were in the rear mezzanine and still like got the full experience. Like it's one of those shows where there's not a bad seat in the house because of how big of a production it is. It is my favorite musical. Yeah, and I'm not really like an Andrew Lloyd Weber girl. Like I don't like cats, I don't like Joseph Um,

I don't like like Starlight Express, Jesus Christ Superstar. I feel like if I watched Jesus Christ Superstar today, I would really like it. But I don't think I've actually ever in full If I were to think about my favorite music hole that I've ever watched, I know that the way you framed the question is stage musical, but my answer is Mulan Bruge because it is the musical. I do not acknowledge this, and it's now a stage. I saw it. I saw it, and I liked it. You shut the funk up right and I had a

good time. You you sit back. I can I can really we are losing credibility. No, no, listen, I I can really appreciate more like serious esoteric musical theater. But I really like a big Broadway musical spectacle, Like you know, I don't like I don't love the format of the jukebox musical necessarily, but I had fun at Mulan Rouge, and like, if I'm having fun, then a musical is doing its job. And it's not like I paid to see it, so yeah, right or right would never pay

to see it. I actually I should see the Share Show because maybe that I heard it was horrible. I heard it was amazed. No no, no, I heard it was like the worst thing ever. No no, no, I could never I could never acknowledge that to be true. Well it is, it is apparently true. I used to see a lot of theater, you know, when I was a freshman in college. Um, when I was a freshman in college, I saw The Wedding Singer the musical eight times, like one semester. It was a musical. Um, it was

a musical. My friend, uh, my my friend from college, and I like became really obsessed with it and we would go do the lottery like a couple of times a week, which was like such a great thing about like you know, being like living in New York when I was, you know, after being a musical theater kid in high school and moving to New York and then like having access to see all this theater that I'd only ever been able to see on like school trips

are like coming in you know when I was a kid. Um. But yeah, we were obsessed with The Wedding Singer the musical and went to see eight times, and we used to wait outside the stage door after every show, and we like became friendly or so we thought with Amy Spanger, who is like a Broadway icon, and one time she was like, do you want to come backstage? And she like brought us backstage and gave us a tour, which

was like really cool. I was not only like a musical theater kid, but like I just loved Broadway and I grew up, you know because I have a lot of family in New York, and so we would go visit them a couple of times a year, and my grandparents would always bring me in to see a show, and like that is where my love of theater comes from. So this is the part of the podcast where we

dive into our journeys. That's recovering theater queers. Yeah. Um, Okay, So when I when you asked was your favorite musical, the musical that came immediately to mind was one very problematic musical we did in high school, which is Flower Drum Song. Yeah, it's a Roger. It's a Roger Rogers and Hammerstein's musical about Chinese immigrants. It unfortunately has really beautiful music, like really beautiful music, but as a whole,

it's like the most is like you've ever seen. There is like a grapht to like, the more problematic a musical is, then like the more people like, the more beautiful the music is, like they are inextricably like yeah, West Side Story honestly up there. But like my I don't know what my musical theater director was on, Well I do it. It was whiteness. But I was at a predominantly white high school and we did Flower Drum Song. We did the wind is are predominantly white high school.

And we also did a version of Annie Get Your Gun, which even the rewrites include this kind of like Native American, kind of like subplats. I've also been in a production of Annie Get Your Gun. I was the male leading. This was that at camp when when I was a kid wait, like Jewish sleep Way Camp. You went to a Jewish musical sleep Awake? Wait? Did I not? Wait?

Did I tell you this? So? I was at our friend Chenno's Christmas party at her house and there was a friend of hers there who I hadn't met before, and somehow we got around to the topic of Sleepway Camp and I was like, oh, I went to Sleepway Camp and the scorel was like I did too, and I was like, yeah, mine was in Pennsylvania and she was like, wait, mine was two. And I was like, yeah, I was in the Poconos. She was like mine was too, and I was like, mine was called camp La didn't hear.

She was like I went there too. And did you both pull out a photograph that was ripped right down the middle and you and you put the photo together slowly? No, we did not, And then you both said that birthdays for October and that you both loved oreas with Peanut

Butter October producer phoebe in with the live fact check things. Um, but I it was so crazy, and you know, I think maybe like, had she known my dead name, maybe she would have like remembered me because I was, I will say, kind of popular because I like, at the time, if you were a boy in theater, like you had the world was your oyster. That is well, not for me, but it was true that I got the lead. You had the lead in every show, you had your pick

of all the girls. I was that summer. I was the lead in both of the musicals, had a girlfriend Anne, hooked up with the boy for the first time on the same summer. Really, I did meet my first and smoked weed for the first time. Oh no way. First of all, I met my first boyfriend in theater during our production of any Get Your Gun. Second of all, Get your Gun. That used to be my Instagram handle. Oh really it would now get flagged by Instagram. Oh yeah,

that makes sense. Man, the good old days. You know, they won't go after people for actually like harassing trans people. But like you know, if you if you are trans and you want to use the t slura, you want to reclaim it. Yeah, um, it's over cut. The stage lights dead ass. I was one of our tech chairs. We had a very rogue buss. Well, you know, department of people. You know, when you don't get cast, do you become a stage manager? You know what's funny is

like or like you lead the prop crew. This is very emblematic who I am. Actually, it's not that I was never cast. It's that, like, I never auditioned because I was too scared. So when I did find an audition, I did like get some roles. But I remember being in a stage production of The Hobbit, And have I told you about this before? This is a very formative like experience of like were you this is well, this is Francisco. She rests in beas Um in a production

of The Hobbit. I okay, in the Hobbit? Who were you? Just say the day? Why wouldn't you let me set up the story? It's part of the story. So in the Hobbit, there are not a ton of parts to pick from. You have wizards that are extreme one wizard, one wizard that's extremely tall, and then you have dwarves and goblins that are have to be way shorter than the wizards. I was a tall girl, but the director of the play cast his son as Gandalf, which is

fucking stupid. So there is no role left for me except to be the only male quote unquote Elf, which is there's like basically a chorus of elves in the Hobbit stage play that don't really have lines, but they sing, and all of them are supposed to be women. But even though there's no women at the Hobbit, yeah, there no women in Hobbit, but that's how they wedged women into like the show, not one single there's only one named female character in the Hobbit, and it's Bilbo's mother

right right, exactly dead who was dead. And so Mr Ailey, our musical person, was like, oh, I really want to cast Francisco, but like, all I can just make in this faggy elf And so I had to wear all the costumes that these girl elves wore. And I loved it obviously because I was wearing like a leaf skirt and a long wig. Okay, I had bundles, I had these little like these like elf ears. Okay, I was

like living. And my parents, upon seeing the musical for the first time, had a signed by side talk with Mr Riley about how it was inappropriate to cast me as such a feminine role. Well they were right. I love that I like set up that started being like and this is a traumatic part of like my gender experience, and you're like and they were right. You know. I was also in a musical that was a an adaptation of a beloved children's novel, and that was when I

was in middle school. We did The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, and I was the Professor, who is supposed to be double cast and also be as Land, but that's not what happened in our musical, and I only got to be the Professor. But the Professor does have a great song called Doors and Windows, and it's like the first solo at the beginning of the show, and so I got to sing out Louise. Do you get that reference? Sing out Louise? You know what is

from Gypsy? Oh well, now I would not that, are you like You're not so you're not familiar with like the musicals, I'm familiar with the musicals, the Cannon, I'm familiar with talking Gypsy, Phantom, the classics. So our high school did twelve shows a year, and two of those were musicals. Ever a lot, Yes, it wasn't. We had an insane feeder calendar. Our our school was not an art school, but it was very invested in the arts,

and we got an okay budget to do stuff. And so I have a pretty robust a knowledge of the musicals that we did, of which they were many. But no, it's not. We didn't do the cannon like the breadth of the can as I said, the whiz and flower jumps. I went to a theater high school, and we did two main stages a year. We did a straight play in a musical, and it was a very big deal to get to even be cast in them, let alone to get a lead. I did have a lead my

senior year. Oh that was the Annie was your last? Oh that was theater camp. Yeah. Um No. When I was sophomore, I was in the Ensemble of Dames at Sea, which is a sort of like anything goes Asque tap musical. That's where I learned to tap dance. And then when I was a senior in high school, I was cast as Telphibious in The Trojan Women by Euripides, which is like going to a high school auditorium to watch a

Greek tragedy is like not something that should happen. And we took it so seriously at the time and thought we were doing amazing work. Um. And I wore a toga and didn't have any shoes, and I had a cape and there were some of the other leads. We all had capes and we used to backstage, which just like run around the hallways with our capes behind us. I didn't have shoes during the hobbit or also a production of metamorphoses, either like Ovid's Metamorphosis or Zimmerman One.

Oh Mary's mmer Oh my god, that's like one of my favorite plays. Me too, it definitely easily. That was one of my college auditions was from Metamorphosis, which monologue the one of the guy in the pool. Uh my god, that's the most beautiful scene. We put a pool on the stage. Wow. I still have my copy of Mary's Immerman's Metamorphosis from high school. We are so liked girls. It's a really it's really crazy. So I only I

never got a lead really. However, my last year I did finally like buck up the courage to audition, and I was also in a tap musical Rose more links between us. I was in Crazy for You, Sister, and Um, I was this close the virgins can't see it, but I'm holding my fingers very close together, this close to being cast as a lead. But I I don't have a ton of hand eye coordination, so he couldn't pull

off the tap numbers required of the lead in that musical. However, my theater director, this is the same one who cast his son as um Gandalf, pulled me aside after I auditioned. He was like, I just want you to know that, like it was so close, that bullshit. No one who was not a theater kid will ever understand the feelings of not getting cast and then some teacher giving you some bullshit. It was almost you or like making you the understudy, where you're like, babes, we're doing six shows.

I'm never going on unless I break this kid's leg, which which I was, well, the funny thing would have done. What's really funny is the guy that they did cast, who was an amazing taped answer, So it makes sense. Was a part of this really really toxic gay love quadrang in my high school between four gay men and myself, and we had all been involved with each other in some capacity, and it was like so dramatic and horrible.

But I think the day that I came out to my parents, I was trying to like high key run away from home, and I had packed a bag and I was going to go live in his mom's basement. Wow. Well, no surprise that a discussion about West Side Story turned back around into talking about gay interpersonal drama and our childhood trauma and our childhood trauma. We will be back next week with a extra special discussion on the Marvel

Cinematic Universe, something you are much more prevy to. Something our guest Joel Can Booster is much more prevy too, something that I am learning about. Yes, we will be

talking about superheroes, supervillains, and Gwyneth Paltrow probably. Yes. So for all of those that are m C you curious, we're going to dive right in um if you If you want to watch some m CU movies ahead of next week, I will give you a list of some of my favorites, The Selects, The Avengers, the Original One, The First, Captain America and Captain America, and The Winter Soldier. I think one of the Tom Holland Spider Man movies I think should be in a digest No Way Home.

Maybe all of One Division, Yeah, definitely you should watch one. Just watch all of One Division before next week. Thanks. Basically, what we're saying is, go to Disney Plus and go to the Marvel section and watch everything. Just pick the ones that look like the gayest like, yeah, just use just use your gut instincts and you'll probably be right. So for those of you that don't know, we take calls here at like a virgin. You can call to

confess the thing that popped your cultural cherry. Just make a suggestion of what we should talk about at three to three pennants. That's three to three seven three six two six two three. You can tweet a your takes on this week's episode. Let us know what you think of West Side Story, which you think of musical culture in general? What's your favorite musical yes? Or if you want to share some of your own embarrassing phase school theater kids stories or photos or video, we would love

to see them. Yeah, get get on, get online and tell us which marginalized groups didge your high school productions culturally appropriate? Um, we all want to know. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, which you can do as well. It helps us a lot, even if it's a little sassy. Just give us five stars on your co host Ran Toronto. You can find me at friend Squish co wherever you want on social media, I'm Rose Damn You. You can find me at Rose

Damn You, on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts and leave us a review. It is the best thing to help our podcast. This is an I Heart Radio production. Our producer is phebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane, Titch and Nikki Tour. Until next time, see you laterver Ens