Greta Gerwig's Drag Race (feat. Hari Nef)

I'm Fran Toronto and versions. If you haven't yet, you need to take out your little smartphone right now, right now, pull up your you know, web browser of choice and go to Paige Treon dot com slash Like a Virgin to become a patron a found to become a founding

patron and get weakly exclusive bonus episodes. And then when you're done, if you're feeling if you're feeling um like in a shopping mood, go over to Like a Virgin for twenty sixty nine dot com period to buy our merch Buying that youre l was one of the most gratifying moments of my career. Honestly, um we it must also be said, you know, I'm realizing now patron not a very gender friendly word. Maybe maybe y'all are matrons. Maybe maybe there's an option to be a patron and

an option to be. I mean, we can't actually do that, but like just like just because it's we're gonna start, We're gonna start a competing service called Matron. Yeah, Matreon, yeah, zam Matreon z Oh god, you know what thing is? I'm sure that exists. Yeah, and it's just like extremely flop tina. Yeah, they only sell like fluid fluid beauty products. Oh, flow fluid beauty. Can't wait to see what they cook up from Pride this year? This year? Oh my god,

how are you feeling about Pride? All things considered? Are you getting any inquiries yet? Are you? Are? You know? And let me tell you my DMS and my email are open for any and all opportunities. Yes, I'm very very bookable. I'm very submissive and bookable. Maybe that'll be a hot um Yeah, no it should be. I mean, honestly, virgins, if you want a crowdsource and and give us feedback on the merch like an item you want, we're already

seeing some cool suggestions. And also, if you're a Patreon subscriber, you are welcome to tell us what you want to hear from our Patreon. You cannot tell us what you want to hear if you don't subscribe. Once you get on, you get absolutely no. Once you get on, you can tell us what's missing. Um, yeah, that's that's something we're going to figure out. Um. Down the road is like, you know, a lot of Patreon people are like on Discord or whatever, and like we're just we're just not

going to do that. But we we we talked to the people at Patreon. They were like, um, are you interested in you know, Discord, And we were like, no, heart emoji, yeah, I'm good, love and enjoy. Um. We do want to engage with you, though, and we want to find a way to do that in a cool social chatty way. And so you know, we're developing that as we go. But Discord, it's gonna be a no from me, dog, It's gonna be a no no no no no no no no no no wait. How does

jesse j do it? No no no no no no no no no no. I can't I can't do it. No one can do it. But um, we also have to acknowledge what you heard just before we started talking was a brand new theme song, which was is song of the Summer, iconic. It absolutely song of the Summer. We have already submitted it to the Grammys, to the Recording Academy, and um, it's gonna win rock the vote. Life Marks did say we're going to EGA and that

will be the gum. Well she said we were going to win an Oscar and I said, oh, right, right right, you're all that you will, but that's because you're about those stretch goals, you know. Yes. And also Katie from Muna said that she would absolutely read the romance novel you know of the cover of our new show art and I told her she should also write a song for the adaptation of the like a Virgin romance novel. My jaws dropped because like all of the ideas were

just flowing through my head. First of all, we just need a virgin to write that fan fiction. So like, if you want to take this, I mean you have I you of my concept and the virgins are clearly interested in this concept because I'll okay, we'll give you a little tease on something that you hear on Patreon. We had a question about um fran and I's possibly overlapping ven diagram sexual history right, and um, we won't

be spilling any details there. Those are Paywald but if you want to hear if fran and I are you know, sister wives or just wives? Yea you Patreon dot com slash like a virgin. Yes, but if you want a ghost write this novella, we're here for it, Katie. If you want to write an original song for the like a virgin pulp fiction lesbian romance, we I mean, that's right up your alley. That's truly like, that is muna, that is something. Can you imagine us? Can you imagine

us doing a love scene in a film? I can, because obviously we would play ourselves. Yeah, we would play ourselves. Although you know, according to gen Z, I don't know if you're aware of all this gen Z like puritine discourse, they want all sex scenes banned from film? What then? Yes, so Z has gen Z has decided that, um, it's a weird and grow to simulate sex in film at all times a like period, and that there should only be sort of you know, fade to Black PG thirteen

love scenes and no sex should take place ever. And if you're interested in seeing that, you're a perv. Yeah, I mean that's stupid. Obviously, I also like very stupid. You and I are very like we resist a lot of gen Z bashing on this podcast sometimes because it just like ages us so hard. So I will say, like some of jay Z, I'm sure there are a lot of slutty jay Z people out there, jay Z slutty gen Z jay Z slutty gen Z folks out there,

and they're probably listening to this podcast. But like, listen, girls, if you are a member of Generation Z and you don't Generation Z, as British people would yes Generations said, if you don't think that we should be having sex scenes and films and TV shows like it's just your light year life, your prudishness is going to have such a rude awakening when you enter the world because like, we're all out here fucking and doing drugs like that's

we are all fucking and sucking, fucking sing and except very sexual people and people that tend to have prudish ideas about sex are usually people that aren't having a ton of search. I'm not gonna joy And I feel like I, as someone who was extremely prudish when I was young, definitely had a bit of a culture shock when I, you know, entered gay World and then later on trans World and I'm like, oh, like, there's no room for being a prude here, Like you don't have

to be a big old, come guzzling slut. Yes, And I just want to say to me, it does not there does not seem to be a huge leap and ideology from there should be no sex scenes in movies too, there should be no drag queen story hours. Like just kind of think about which side of history you're trying to be on me very very flattening. It's very very unfun.

It's just an unfun take, Isn't it crazy? How timely this week's episode of Drag Race ended up being with the drag loose of it all, like coming amidst you know what felt, especially in the past like week or two, the boiling point of all the conversations around drag and you know, like legislation to criminalize it. I was shook.

I mean obviously, like we've been screaming about trans health care for kids like for years and obviously this like mainstream of attack on drag has been happening for a while. But yeah, it was like kind of crazy because the boiling point where you know, Melissa McCarthy and all these like you know, Padre Pascal. All these celebrities are posting on it, like a few Sundays ago happening right in tandem with this, like you know, PSA on drag Race that they filmed what a year ago, year and a

half ago, Like that's I was. I was shook, but I guess it's kind of also sad that message is just always relevant, it is. I thought it was a very good rusical. Yeah, I mean I usually love the rusicals, and this was a standout. I don't necessarily think it was a standout in terms of how it was performed, but the actual songs themselves. I mean it was no all stars to iconic Queens through History moment, but it was you know up there. Yeah, I felt the same.

I definitely like there were some boring there were some people that were like boring, but like I thought everyone was great, Like I didn't think anybody was bad, And I also felt, to be totally honest, like Selena Stitis was amazing and added great, was like so good on choreo and was really emotive in the rusical specifically, which

is why I'm like, where does the runway matter? Like if it's like a bit of a wash on the rusical, like let's incorporate Runway into this critique and it feel like they're just like playing the producer game or whatever. But did you see that video of Selena as Titti's dragging Ross Matthews. I did, She's not wrong? Who who? I think that a lot when I'm looking at you know, Carson Cressley and Ross Matthews, like literally, who are they

to be talking about what people wear? And and I say this as like, I really love Selena as Titties. I thought I was so im I was rooting for in the beginning, so happy with what she contributed to the season. I really wish she was wearing something else when she said that PSA because she like I was like, it's like you can't shout about fashion and like wear

this like busted channel knockoff that like doesn't fit you properly. Um, but I I love And my favorite genre of content is a queen, you know, slandering the show against their nondisparagement agreements, like I'm thinking about have you seen that video of Gia Gunn where she's like completely naked in a gay bar and go, yeah, fucking miss RuPaul. Have you seen that. Um, yes, so it's so good. Um you were not happy with the Kate Bush lip sync though,

I mean I wasn't either. I think Kate Bush should storm into the studio and demand both of their heads on a platter. Yeah, and then take a shit on their into their skulls and set them on fire. If you're got to give us Park and Bark, you gotta give us emotion. You gotta give us like, uh, just the thing that they constantly seemed to be forgetting, especially Lucy Leduca, who you know I hate. Who I know that you hate is that they're doing drag like you're

doing drag drag, Like, be a drag queen. Don't just like your lip sync in your bedroom like I was getting bedroom lip sync, Like, make a choice and make it extreme. It's like the same thing with Lucy and her fucking non existent Beyonce baby bump. I should be able to see that baby bump from space. Yes, back, you are a drag queen. I should be able to see your Kate Bush lip sync from the back of

the club. Yeah. Agree. I mean it's hard, it's hard to like, it's hard to root for Lucy when she's like so like I'm the best time to shit, I should be winning all these challenges and she's so not like she is mediocre, like she Luck's new arms track, Lucks the woman that you are. I this week she made me follow her on Twitter. H it was fucking honestly, she is she a good Twitter follow have you have you seen? I don't know, I haven't looked might but I did follow. I did follow her. Um, she made

me watch on talked. I haven't done that all this season. Yeah, you know what. It was kind of disappointing. It wasn't as dramatic as I was hoping it would be. But that was an iconic runway moments when she car no reason when she went down the line complimented every girl and then read Lucy Luduca to filth like she she it's very law roach going. You ain't that? Oh God, I'm like, okay, here's here's my honest thoughts on Lucy.

I I have a lot of empathy for the try hard girls, right like she's getting a jan at it and I have I personally identify with with the jan at it and yeah, because you're because you're a little bit of a jam. I love to try hard. It is a terrible downfall of mine. It makes me look like a loser a lot of the time. But like, why would we punish people for trying really hard? Lucy, Yeah, it's because it is fun and lux knows that. Um. But like Lucy, like in the the room, Phoebe coming

in the chat, you'd like to try hard? Accept an acting class? Oh my god, shut the I was there to observe. How dare you, Phoebe? Um. I have to say, Lucy, like I was breaking my heart because like if I was on drag race and these two girls are ganging up on me because like look looks and what's her face? We're ganging up on her very adamantly, and I, you know, it did definitely. I was like, this isn't shade anymore. This is very personal. So if that happened to me, Rose,

you know what would happen. I would bug out, Like I would bug out because I'd be like, people don't really been there. Yeah, exactly, I would bug out, would be like people don't like me and I need to freak out. But but on the flip side of this, you can kind of smell when the other girls don't like a certain girl, right, it doesn't matter how good

you are. How the other girls treat you in the room gives us information for what kind of report you were building with them while this show was being filmed. And I don't know if there have been like solidarity footpost for like Lucy, because I imagine she's getting tons of hate, but I thought a lot, I mean not to like deserved. Yeah, sure, I don't believe anybody deserves hate online because you know, it's like so horrible. But like shell work, bullying works, Lucy does have a loose

grip on reality. It reminded me a little bit of Valentina because in her first season, but Valentina was thickening yes, yes, exactly, um slightly well, Lucy had a lot of misses, but like a lot of her drag, especially at the beginning, so polished, so good, the body was right like her, she'd classic drag and I think she looked so good. But like if although the girls don't like you, that's saying something to me, And like Valentina, I stand the

whole season. And then I watched what happened in the reunion and I was like, oh, the she the other girls do not like her? The other she was like, just she didn't build rapport. That's like community is so important, that's what. Rapport is so important. Shade is so important to like understand and balance And yeah, I don't know. You're right. Community is so important. Community is stories matter. Stories are so important. Storytelling is so powerful. Stories. Stories

are some of the most powerful stories that exist. Oh my god, well, Um, with that, Rose, do you have any thoughts ahead of our season two into like our season two premier Season two premiere, Um sorr storring Harry enough, Yes, Harry is of all the Diva dolls. She is definitely one, if not the og of generation. Harry is an actress, a girl about town, an it girl thinker. Truly you can. You can find that out on her letterbox Diva. Yes she Oh, she is a cinophile and we are not,

and we, especially me, we are not. I don't quite remember if she like schooled us in the cinephile region, but I definitely knew nothing about David Lynch and so I'm glad we got into that. We as well as sharing a lot more about the Barbie movie than I thought she was going to just sick, yes, as well as her love I think what Harry does very well is a careful but also like Waka Doo, juxtaposition of high brow and low brow is kind of Harry's whole stick,

and she does it very well. I think probably all of us moved to LA when we did, you know for some kind of santasy of the Hollywood dream, which in watching Mulholland Drive, I definitely like saw in the fantasy and I did like I mean it was I watched it for the first time last night. I'd never seen it and like, I am like somewhat of a David Lynch girl, like I do love Twin Peaks, but it was just like a cultural blind spot for me

and I it's a weird It's a weird movie. Well, speaking of Twin Peaks, did you know that Mulholland Drive was originally supposed to be a television show? Yes? I read something about that, but can you expand please? He shot it to be in the wake of Twin Peaks's success. This kind of like ABC souped up glamour version of the David Lynch dark drama pretty Girl sensation, and he screened it for the executives and they were like, no, Tino Shade, What the fuck is there? Yeah? And so

and this is what I love. He got Canal Plus to finance the completion of Twin Peaks, I mean Mulholland Drive as a film, which is like the French public Access. They fund a lot of French it's it's like a French company. David got that, like Foreign Overseas Art House, which in France was public Access coin to somehow complete this black box or should I say blue box of a pilot that he had constructed with the original intention for it to go on and on and on. And

I think, which is so crazy to think about. Yeah, and Lynch was creating, you know, he creates, and I think he did this with Twin Peaks. So he creates. He sets up these narratives that he doesn't even know where they're going. He has kind of a I guess, a spidy sense of where it could go. He sets up all the pieces, but like he doesn't know, like who the killer is, he doesn't know whose dream it is, He doesn't know. He doesn't know who killed Laura Palmer.

It's not about that. No, he didn't, and they forced him to say who it was because that was the demand of the TV audience. He didn't want to reveal that. Yeah, and that's when the show becomes unwatchable is when you know who the killer is. I mean, I guess that. Like it makes so much sense about Mulholland Drive because watching it, it is so like it's like a series of vignettes, even more than it is like a narrative film.

And I really liked you know, Okay, So I will admit at first I was very bored watching it, and I was and I was on my phone, and then it really just started to draw me in and I was so transfixed by it. And it is such an LA movie, and I think, like that's such a like almost boring thing to say, because like so many movies are LA movies. But I don't know it like it has this hypnotic thing that I think Hollywood definitely has.

Hypnotic is very I think, kind of a Lynchian thing, like there is something that kind of like grips you into the work and then all of a sudden you're just like, I have no idea what I'm watching a lot of the time, but like I'm in this world because it's so weird and you're trying to like figure it out. What was your experience of like first watching this movie, I guess, or why do you think it's maybe a little bit emblematic of like who you are

or like what are you like to make? I think what drew me into it was the way it felt like a dream or a dream that I've had. It has the logic of a dream, in the pacing of a dream. I think that the is this boring? Oh wait, now I'm like glued to the spot and I can't look away. I think that's part and parcel to how David Lynch deals with time. His beats do not go snap aty snap snap snap. You know Aaron Sorkin like

dialogue moving it. It's there's very little sense of urgency. Yeah, it takes a long time for things to happen, but you get the sense that something is happening with how the camera moves and you know, with Angelo Battle Lamentes score kind of like leading you down into this dream path. And also even the way that it's scripted, the way he arranges words and the way conversations are had, it's

not naturalistic. It's kind of like two people in two different dreams trying to send each other the same message or a different message, Like that scene when they're talking in winkies in the diner in the daytime. There's that like score in the background that lets you know something bad is happening, but you're in this like pretty pink diner and the sun is shining. I loved that juxtaposition of the sunshine and I guess evil or or darkness daytime.

And I think that is that is so Los Angeles as knowing that some of the ugliest, grossest, most evil things are happening in the most brightly lit possible places. Yeah, the whole movie. I feel like maybe a lot of his work is just very like suspended ten, Like what if suspended tension had like no payoff, you know what I mean. You're really like on the edge of your seat for kind of nothing a lot of the time. And that is you know, part of the gag. But

I I mean, I I fell asleep. I will not lie because this was last night and I am but I but when as soon as she finds as soon as she's like, you know, she's like Rita, your friend, Rita, you know, And and she finds out that like Rita's not. That's when I was just like, oh, I understand, kind of like the people always say in Hollywood, They're like, what's the engine of this thing? Like, what's the engine?

And I feel like a lot of the movie was like disinterested, I guess, in the engine and more interested in like the characters and like the dream state of it all and the vibe. Yeah about the vibes. Yeah, Well, she names herself Rita after looking up at that poster of Rita Hayworth and Gilda, which I also watched recently for the first time, which is another movie about a beautiful woman with great hair who is pretending to be

somebody she's not. So Lynch is kind of put in it right in your face with the there is a woman, and she's beautiful, and she's not what she seems to be, and that alone is sort of the seed of what made the femme fatale back in you know, the forties and fifties, This idea of a woman who is tricking you and she seems to be in control, but she's

really in trouble. But by the rules and standards of the time, all of this is not a great thing for a woman to be and quite frequently the fem fatals were actually quite masculine, which is I think what rendered them fatal in that sense. Even if they didn't look masculine, they had these kind of like you know, boyish or mannish ways of you know, talking or playing people or even just maneuvering, you know, because you were so used to seeing a kind of passive, pretty pleasing

woman at the time. Well, because what's more dangerous than a woman who takes some of masculinity for herself cling cloves, cling close and fatal attraction or just gland close in general or something like that. Well, it's it's interesting because mulholland Dry takes Naomi Watts's character Betty slash Diane and kind of um dissects a single woman into kind of

these two ideas of what a woman should be. Instead of like the femme fatale, you know, like the Lauren Bacall or somebody like that, with like the big shoulders and kind of the raspy voice. It's like there's Diane Selwyn who's like, you know, a druggy, bitter lesbian that's the kind of new fem fatal and then she is um, she sublimates or she is split from her she is somehow connected to Betty Elms, who's this like sweetest pie blonde little bimbo. Well, it's like the two film archetypes.

It's the ingenue and the fem fatal. And this movie is about, I mean about movies, and we talk about like how annoyed we are about like stories that are about stories and movies that are about But this is like about Hollywood and the way that it like rips

people apart. And I did like do a little like reading and like watched a video essay after I watched the movie about how it's like about how it's like about the idea, like about how Rita is supposed to represent the idea of like the casting couch in Hollywood and like women who trade their sexuality for success, and like I mean, I'm sure this is the thing with David Lynch. It's like sure that is an interpretation of the movie that if it makes sense to you, like Okay,

I think there's many other interpretations of this movie. And I think there's also a version of it where you watch it and you don't interpret it and you just take this beautiful fever dream of a film and are like, that is a piece of art that I watched and that will like linger in my mind for the rest of my life, the way that some dreams do, where you don't aren't necessarily able to extract any meaning from them,

but they haunt you forever. Yeah, I think that He's like it's almost like David Lynch isn't really interest doesn't want it to be interpreted. You know. Well, he has said time and time again he's like refused to say what the film is really about. But yet on the DVD release of the film, there's a bunch of questions that he like prompts you with for watching the film, and they're all very vague and like ephemeral, and it's like it's kind of a troll, which I love. Right now,

I'm so surprised, I know about that list. It's like a ten list thing. It's like the keys to this mystery. I'm so surprised that he did that. There's so many like silly little nuggets for these art films that you can find in the like kind of post y two K DVD sort of like extra's industry. He didn't want to provide any of that, but it was kind of like this nace way of getting it to an audience, like command David, just like throw us a bone here, No,

but he doesn't explain. And you know, right now, I'm actually doing this play in New York called Des Moines, which is by Dennis Johnson, who's this amazing novelist and poet and also playwright. And the play that I'm doing right now totally exists in this dream logic that goes between realism and naturalism and then total surrealism. And frequently we're looking at this text or we were, and we

don't know what we're saying. And Dennis Johnson is no longer with us, so the playwright isn't in the room, and this is his last play, so this is kind of just like a treasure map that he left us. And I think that Mulholland Drive is really fascinating on the level of acting too, because you know, particularly Naomi Wats's performance, you can see her making choices. She knows what she's saying. She probably received the script and said, oh my god, like what does this mean? This could

go any which way? You know, like at the you know, like even that repeated line like we don't stop here that you know, Laura Maria Harring says at the beginning, and I believe Naomi Watts says at the end dialogue when that happens, right, like what does that mean? Who's we? Why isn't she saying like what's going on? Or like hey? Why? It's like what you have to make a choice as an actor if you don't know what you're saying, you

have to choose what you're saying. And you have to let the playwright and the filmmaking or the theater making or all the other people working on it, they can work out the logic. If you know what you're doing, then something will read on screen. And I think that Mulholland Drive is this impossible alchemy of like Naomi Watt's making choices, Laura Maria Harring making choices. I believe Peter Deming, the cinematographer, correct me if I'm wrong. That's who did

Twin Peaks. I hope it's the same person making choices. Angelo Battlamenti making choices, Mary Sweeney the editor making choices, Tatiana like everybody's making their own choice, and David Lynch is just kind of I think like encouraging everybody. I think what David Lynch has is a trust of his collaborators. I don't think he's this like rigid outer guy. I'm sure he knows exactly, you know. I know that he knows what he wants, like, you know, down to the

color of the lipstick and whatever. But it's really this multi valenced thing. Even just like talking about it, I'm struggling too, because it doesn't do justice to what it feels like to watch it, for sure, And I feel like you can see the relationships I guess that he has with the actors because of like what isn't said

and what you can't necessarily explicitly parcel. And I think that's what gets me so wet about David Lynch in Stay in Age because all the content, almost all the content that we're kind of presented, you know, in the age of like peak streaming TV, it's all so on the surface, it's all so recappable. It's also let's like find the memes and all the Easter egg yeah, recap

reboot memes, yeah, all that stuff. You know, everything has to mean something, everything has to be plucked out right, and like, you know, I watch all those YouTube videos too, But it's like the economy of like meaning on YouTube and how people can build entire careers on pointing at something and saying what it means. I know, I'm going to make a YouTube video about that here. Yeah, I mean, you know, pardon my non binary vibes, but I'm just like, does it all need to be explained? Can can we

chew on a little fucking mystery bag? Like? Can can? Can we sit with a question mark? Can we sit on it? What happened to mystery? It's very I feel like Lexie Featherston just like about to fall out that window, like nobody, why where's mystery? Nobody wants to have fun anymore? Well, Charlotte famously says in season one that it's important to remain a creature of miss. I think that's after Carrie farted. Probably what did you make of the Lesbian? Could you

even call it that? I sapphic, but I also felt like it was not. I think if that movie came out today, there would be like a them dot Us cover about it. There would be like it would there would be so much extracted from that and in fact, like what I thought about it in in the movie is that in the story that it's telling, Like it's such a logical conclusion of what these women are experiencing together, yes,

which is that they are like this. They become immediately obsessed with each other and they are like ciphers of each other and there's this like doubling and doppelgangering, and of course the logical conclusion is that they fuck. And it's not about like are they queer, like what are the political implications of it? It just like it's there's all the this energy swirling around them, and the logical conclusion is that they fuck because they're obsessed with each other.

I mean, you know that that famous line that Betty says, I want to with you. That's like the pansexual anthem to with you. It's not about gender, it's about you, about you baby. And then the end of the movie is kind of like okay, like what might the real world implications of this be? And it's like, i mean, like fascinating, but almost less interesting to me than that like ecstatic moment of them fucking when it's just like this has to happen. Yeah, it's that it's that moment

where it's revealed to them. It's it's after they come back from Club Sencia. So they've just had this like supernatural surreal reckoning that nothing is real and that there is no band, there is no god, there is no could you know, there's no man behind the curtains, there's no man behind the curtain, there's there's there's no engine. I mean, it's it's almost kind of like a godlessness and a nihilism. It's like, you know, what else do we have in this moment but each other? What else

can we consume in like get inside but each other? Um? You know. I mean I think that that's very reflective of like what sex is and what can make it really cool. But it's not a version of sex you often see in the movies because sex is often used for plot, and we all know that plot is not the thing here. Yes, sex is vibe. That really is it. It's not plot driven sex. It's no, it's it is the vibe. Well, I love that. I want to have just non plot driven viby sex. I'm having viby sex

that is not plot driven. Plotless sex is Yeah, that is the vibe. I guess I kind of am two. I had sex in an office stairwell last way. Oh, that's kind of plot driven on his bike, on his break, that's very plot driven, honestly. No, but it wasn't. But it wasn't the cracked smile. We just saw that the that the visions cannot see. Anyways. So you're a theater girl now, yeah, in and out of the theater. Okay. So what's the next project for you? Um? The next

project is UM the Seagull Oh my god. Yeah, it's an adaptation of The Seagull by Thomas Bradshaw. It's called The Seagull Woodstock, New York and it's at the New Group at the Pershing Square Signature Center on forty second Street. Um. I'm playing the role of Sasha, which is a version of the original Masha. Um. Parker Posey is playing the irena.

Oh my god, Party Girls Unite absolutely. Nat Wolf is playing the Constantine character who I'm in love with my friend Patrick Foley from Fake Friends, that amazing queer theater collective. He is, you know, playing the guy who's in love with me and I hate him and then I marry him spoiler alert. So I'm super excited for that. And that goes until April ninth. I think the performances start like the first or second week in February, so that's what I'm here doing. And then after that it'll be

you know, May or April or whatever. I don't know. I have stuff coming out. The Idol on HBO will be coming out, which I'm in. I did an episode of this anthology series on Apple called Extrapolations, which is basically Black Mirror but with climate change and celebrities. Okay, I am not one of those celebrities. Was made very

clear to me when we were shooting. I shot this episode with Marianne Cotillard, Forrest Whitaker, Toby Maguire, and Asa Gonzalez, and it was and while we were shooting it, they like announced the four of them and not me. It was like wow, we were shooting. I was just like I saw the announcement. I was like, oh work. They did announced me later in like a larger one with other people, but I was I was like, oh work. Um, so like that'll come out at some point and then

you know, the pink Elephant. Come on, Barbie, let's go pretty. Don't say that. I am in the Barbie movie, which will be coming out on July twenty first, and you're not. Isn't that when it comes out? I don't know. Is it twenty third? I think it's twenty first. No, No, it's the day Oppenheimer comes out, Barbenheimer and Pink Pink Elephant. I assume you're not yet ready to talk about it press wise, you're not in the press her Barbie, So I'm not on the press drunket, but you know everybody,

everybody gets asked about it. Yeah, and you know it's it's always a sound bite. Very yeah. I mean there's actually still so little about the final product that I know. I haven't seen anything. I know what I shot, and I know what the script is, and I'm so excited to see it. Yeah. Yeah, that trailer got me very hype. It's wild. Yeah, I got you hype. Could never could

never be predicted. Like, I feel like there's so much about it where you're just like you you don't understand, you don't really know what you're you're getting going into the movie, but you think you have an idea. And I don't think that's what the movie is going to serve. I hope, what do you think it's going to serve? I think it's gonna serve like fucking weird, Like I hope, like I hope it's weird, and I hope it's like

I don't know not to I don't know. I think I just like was I think the movie helped very unserious and very willing to make fun of one of the most recognizable entities on the planet. And I thought I didn't know that that was going to happen because it's Coprode with Mattel. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Yeah, Mattel gave Greta and Noah and us a lot of freedom.

They really trusted us to go there. I think, knowing that we would have to go there in order to make a film about this doll, this idea of a woman, this with this loaded history, how do we make sense of this in the present? I think they knew the envelope had to be pushed in order for it to you know, quite frankly sell. And that's what we did.

I mean, that's so refreshing in the world of like existing ip and everyone being so precious about how you get to play with the toys and in what sandbox Like it sounds like the box was maybe a little bigger, dirtier, or whatever, dirtier, I don't know, but bigger certainly. I mean, I think it is going to be. It's it's not like a squeaky clean thing for all ages, I imagine.

I think all ages can enjoy it, but it's definitely there are definitely adult ideas and adult themes and adult vibes in it that will hopefully play to a wide audience. I thought about drag Race a lot when I was shooting it. No way, Yeah, it was kind of like Greta gerwigs drag Race and you were you a contestine or you know, because I'm there for like sixteen hours a day, I've got this wig on my head, I'm painted from hedge of how I'm singed, and you know,

today it's a comedy challenge. Today, it's an acting challenge. Today, it's a dance challenge today, um, not a sewing challenge. But it was very much I kind of had to do everything I had ever learned how to do. Ever, going back to when I was five, and I don't know, I thought a lot about like RuPaul when I was making the film, and about like what he says on drag Race, what he encourages the girls to do, like to act the fool and to let it all hang out and to not take yourself so seriously and to

make grew laugh and Greta would laugh. She was like she would be holding it in and you would just hear this, and that's how you knew. We started saying this thing after every take. I forget where this came from, but it was all about, um, mommy, say you like it. Mommy, say you like it, Mommy, say you like it. That's that, That's what we used to say. That's so funny, her mother. I mean, you know, it's when you have all the power of like you know, the Warner Brothers, you know,

hair and makeup and costume department behind you. Shout out to Jacqueline Duran costume designer, shout out too if on a Primeriic hair and makeup designer. When you have all that behind you and on you, you can act really foolish. And so yeah, true, yeah, no, it's it's that movie took everything I had. It was exhausted. It was two like two and a half plus months, and like, you know, it's like I'm not even like the biggest role in it.

It's like I'm kind of like it's like I'm in a bunch of scenes I like, show up like surf gunt, but say a couple funny things. You know. It's it's a big ensemble piece. It's it's it's far and wide, and you know, I don't know how it's going to turn out in the edit, but I've heard that there is a version. Greta came to my play and she said that there is a cut now that she likes. And I think that test screenings are going to start soon, which like the very idea that petrifies me. And I

don't know. I'm just like I'm trying to just treat it like this job I did, Like I don't want to get caught up in the hype. I believe nothing beautiful can bloom in the hype. In the light of the hype. I just want to hope for the best. It's very Hollywood of you. Well, I don't know. I mean, like there's been so many times where I thought something was going to come out and change my life and it totally flopped and then nothing changed and I was

back in the breadline. You know, Like that's Hollywood is like You're like, it's going to change and then everything's the same, but it took like three years to get to the climax of whatever you thought the change was going to be because Hollywood runways are so long. And then you're Diane at the end of Mulholland paying to have your lover killed. Okay, wait, so I didn't get through the end. Someone dies at the end? Um, you're

not gonna tell me, no, But it's like, it's who. Well, yes, I mean, yes, someone does die at the end, one of the women. But does she I don't know? Bury your gays? Wow, I mean, do you actually want to It doesn't I can't even even giving you the plot details doesn't really mean anything. It's the same thing. It's like if I told you who killed Laura Palmer, It's like that wouldn't really doesn't really, I don't even matter.

I don't remember who killed. There're certain plot things like that that I kind of just choose not to accept in certain things, like I don't accept that Carry ended up with Big not really. Oh, who do you think she should have ended up with? Yeah? No, no, it's not a who. It's like she could have ended up with any of them. She could have ended up with none. Of them, you know, like, do I believe that in like the spiritual truth of twin peaks that spoiler alert,

like Leland Palmer killed Laura Palmer. Like, no, not necessarily, because that's not what the show's about. Sex and the City isn't about Carrie finding true love. It's about her looking for it, and that's what's so interesting about the show. And it's about four girls and the and the city being the fifth character or Stanford is the only real character,

and the other four girls are dreams. I was listening to another podcast the other day where somebody said that Sex and the City is about like four gay men living the gay lifestyle and it's just like women. Yeah, oh that's absolutely that's you know, like the Darren star Michael Patrick King fantasy Yeah avatars, Yeah, for like what a lot of like gay men were living out because it's like if six hetero women were fags. Literally, I

mean that's like part of why it was. But that's like why it was amazing, because like you were watching like women have sex in ways that you had never seen before, at least in those first few seasons where you were just like, yeah, what like women fucking like gay men well, the first episodes, literally Carris columnists. Can women have sex like men? Like? That is the premise of the whole show. And you know what we can

we have and we will continue to meland. Okay, the trans reclamation of Fire Island is a thing as of last summer. Can we talk about that? Okay? No? No, Like I first started coming there, I leaned into the mice. Yeah, little asmr. I first started coming to Fire Island like three summers ago, and I was just like, I am going to plant my flag on this gay island because I belong here. I Am going to like party like these gays. I'm going to have sex like these gays.

I'm going to like rent beautiful homes like these gays, because like I belong here. The spirits are telling me that I belong here. I'm supposed to be here. And it's not just me, it's the dolls, the dolls. Where are the dolls. I know where the dolls are. The dolls can't afford to pay these like crazy rental prices. So I'm like, if there's if there's anywhere where I'm like willing to admit that I am like nakedly social

climbing and flying to it is Fire Island. Yes, you have to do some wealthy people there so that we can import you know, we need like a doll invasion of Fire Island. We need to become the wealthy people. No, because there's there's there's like a like, yeah, sub population of like broke twins who just got to be on Fire Island all summer and and they inherit it or they fucked someone's daddy or whatever, you know, yeah, or no,

like they got brought out there for sex. Like right, I would love to create that or help to create that for the dolls. And I'm and I'm literally like marching around to all these houses being like have you ever listened to Ethel? I'm like you're like you're witness Noine. But but I'm also just like running around and you know, like I met um somebody who I dated for several months. Since you're like in a pool and Fire Island, It's like I'm planting that blag too. I'm like, y'all can

like got with the dolls too. It's like it's like we're we're fun too. Like this is like like like we're a part of this too. It's like I don't know, I really feel like that place is the platonic, spiritual, explosive ideal of what that place is supposed to be. Imagine when everybody is there, Yes, you know, you can

really see that on BAFO weekend. BAFO is this arts organization that does this series of residencies all somewhere on Fire Island, and in August they have this performance festival there and their programming is diverse and obviously queer centered, and like everybody comes out for this weekend and you see a crowd that is more racially diverse, socioeconomically diverse, gender diverse, and everybody's there and like, those are the people at the fancy house parties, those are the people

on the beach ascending, those are the people at the club. And it doesn't usually look like that. It's usually just like I'm hanging with the white gays and like kumbaya. But when it does look like that, it's literally like the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. It's paradise. I'm

all in. It's like we said this when after we had this like really lovely like Fire Island summer week and after we left, like Rose was like it's crazy or I think we were like in the pool and Rose was like, it's crazy, how like this is like one of the most beautiful places on the planet inhabited

by some of the worst people alive. Like you know what I mean, Like obviously there are a lot of amazing people there too, but well, but don't you think that that's relative to where our population like like imagine if you were in like Easthampton. Sure, yeah it would be it would be much worse. But that feeling was like so much because of how um how different it was this summer when for once, this was the first time when we rented a house for a week that

like we had the house. It wasn't like going and staying with someone where they had brought out all the people they wanted to fuck and then like they're one trans friend and like lesbian friend, and it's like really different when you have the house and you get to curate the people who come out there and the people who they bring out, and like that just breeds more and more of the girls and the dolls being out there and that that is how we you know, take

it back right, And I think that gay men need to kind of abide by this one guiding principle. My friend was talking about this other day about what he looks for while dating and a partner, you know, as gay guy, one of my best friends. He was like, the number one thing I look for when dating, like in the gay dating pool, is like, does this man

love women? If you want to be my lover, you gotta get women alls, but also the lesbians and also just like girls, there are so many gay men who don't enjoy the company of women, who don't see women, don't don't write not like the hottest take. But when you actually zoom out and think about it, it's like gay life is better with women. Literally, literally it just is.

And I think that you know so many of like you know, the party gays, and just like the giggdy gays, like they're always I think a lot of them always have these very generic complaints about the homogeneity in their social circles and in their sexual circles. Like you can solve that problem by just bringing women around, whether or not you're hanging with them, whether or not you're like you know, getting a little MIXI and like loving on them or sucking on them, Like gay is just better

with women. Six gay guys on trans girls. There's a very special marriage there. Yeah. Yeah, because gay guys get to be a man to that woman in a way that they were like shamed and admonished for it and then had to mourn probably at a young age, like never ever being able to be a man to a woman in that way. And trans girls get to like receive that and have a man to their woman and be a girl to that man in a way that feels very I think far away for a lot of us.

There's kind of this like this like frequently sexless heterosexuality that happens between like this is gays and the dolls where they can actually create the Norman Rockwell, the Norman Rockwell picture together, and I think that that's like the glue that binds it. They It's like we kind of can create this illusion of heterosexual belonging while still being our queer selves, Like we can get the affirmation and the thrill of living our own little thing at the

same time. I totally get what you're saying. There is a sort of romanticism in the relationship between a gay

man and his doll. Yeah. Like my best friend Ryan and I like there is we are soulmates siblings and like, you know, when we go to the movies, we hold hands and like there is there is something like I mean, there's nothing sexual about it, but there is a romanticism and a tenderness there that does feel very much like we are filling out that role of you know, whatever, whatever is expected of a man and a woman being together in society, and tenderness is such an elusive thing.

I think for both you know, sis men in the gay dating pool and sex pool and like trans women in you know, the trans straight dating pool or sex pool, I think that having that communion coming together in a way that is like essentially societally sanctioned in this like header a way, it does create this sense of like I got that too, and it's nice that I have that. I mean, aside from also affirmation, I do feel like, you know, there's like a language that you click into

really quickly. But I think a lot of like gay men like or maybe I'm speaking broadly, but like I feel like a lot of gay men that I don't know don't have trans people are trans friends in their life, and I feel like there's a lot of like you're just like and that's so sad. Yeah, it's really sad.

It's kind of like why. But I think that a lot of that has to do with like the fear of what they don't know, and yet they I think a lot of people that just don't inhabit like trans spaces or trans circles just don't know that you actually have so much in common. Obviously very different experiences, but there's so much overlap. There's so much in your own languages that you can exchange. I mean, I don't think it's a crime not to have trans people in your life.

If they're not in your life. I mean, there are people freak quently want to forget in all these conversations that like there are so few of us. Yeah, I think it's more of a crime when there are no women in your life. Yeah, particularly particularly with gay men, because there is such a celebration of femininity, because the gay men are bumping the divas, they are watching drag race, they are talking about celebrities, and yet they have no

actual physical proximity to women. That and I'm fucking weird, and back to drag race. Honestly, like, I think that's part of why so much of like, you know, contemporary drag Race not so much like Drag Race of your but a lot of drag Race right now is like really hard to watch, like the communities, like the people that are consuming it. It's like there's just like ache feeling around. I don't know what you're describing, I guess, And also just the show. It's like not just good anymore.

But I still watch every season. I'm can I confess something, Yes, I watch drag Race, so I know you, Like, I don't just watch drag Race. I watch like the YouTube recaps and like conspiracy theory videos. I've rewatched every season of drag Race, like the main Drag Race and All Stars. I've rewatched all of them, like at least twice, like some of them like five ors. Like It's literally the thing that I will turn on when I'm like tired and I want to just like have a little laugh.

Which comfort show. It's my comfort show. It used to be Sex in the City, but I made a vow to myself because I've watched Sex in the City more than twenty times. I made a vow to myself to stop watching sex I'm not going to watch it again until I'm Carrie in season one years old, which is thirty two because I think that show kind of like wired my brain for dating in a way that places

like Fire Island have helped me get out of. But now it's Drag Race, and I'm actually trying to get out of that too, because I've like run out of Drag Race a little bit, and I like can't keep doing this to myself. But like, I'm actually so obsessed with Drag Race, and I think it's like this amazing show.

I mean, like, yes, there are issues that people have pointed out that are valid in the fandom is like rot rotation, the fantom is rotted to the electric chair, but in you know, like I think, in order to watch Drag Race like sustainably, you have to actually also be like a fan of drag and like of queens who aren't on the show, and you have to support local drag, which like I actually don't do as much as I could, but I still do as much as

I can. Um. The issue about supporting local drag is that like the queens to me are like Pearls before swine, Like I don't want to go to those clubs, yeah yeah, and be in community with everyone there. One can only do so much no, but I just saw Sharlene and Karnate perform at the Poetry Project twenty four hour marathon, and I love that they had drag up in the

Poetry Project. Um that's how it should be. Um yeah, I mean Brooklyn Jag is really it, Like I think for New York, I'm I'm not really out in Hell's kitchen much. You're not going to industry And I don't even know if that no feet cost extra? Do you? I'm fascinated by a really good to live by. I think everyone that's that should be everyone's resolution for twenty

twenty three feet cost extra. I really want to be a guest judge on Rutbaul Jager's Routpaul, if you're listening, I really really want it, Babe, that's in the cart. I think that's really matter when yeah, it's yeah, it's not an if. I I love drag. Drag is like a huge kind of inspiration for like, I'm kind of in my wig era right now. No, I'm wearing wigs

and everything we love. Yeah, it's it's drags. So wait, what's your favorite season or rather maybe not favorite season, but this season you always returned to or the comfort season. The comfort season is kind of where it all began for me, which is sort of season four, I think, I mean season five has kind of emerged more recently as like this is sort of like the season, like this is kind of when it peaked. No, it's it's Jinks,

and season four is Sharon, Season four is Sharon. Actually think season five is the true Girl, not just because of the queens, which are I don't think we've ever seen a season of that caliber with the casting, but also because of the storyline, like we've never had anything like Cocoa and Alyssa since Coco, and like that's why it was good. And then like Jings versus Rulaska talks like we've like we don't have that shit anymore. They're all too nice. It was like it was like biblical

but totally biblical. It was it was David versus the Goliaths. Yeah, it was less self perception, you know, less self editing.

I'm like I but I what I also love from like really more so like the first like one, two, three, and then like four seasons, it's like they were all kind of transsexual, like like they were all like cross dressing, like they were all wearing like ready to wear they were, you know, and and I know that they can't do this anymore, but like I miss when Paul was like four, they all these new glamour girls and they're sitting on

a big old secret. I know, I bring back, bring back you, like like I miss, I miss the like the lady boy jokes and the tranny jokes, since the like she's got a dick Joe and how like like like like all they could ever say on the runway is like you know, veiled versions of like she's got a dick under you. Like it's so good. I know, make drag trap again. I know, and I'm sorry, but like like the girls are gonna eat me a why for saying this? But like I you know, like as me,

I do watch drag Race and like experience recognition. I like, like I do watch drag Race and experience not only recognition, but my friend Devin Diaz, who's you know, one of my favorite writers and thinkers, She's like, drag Race is such a hit with like you know, the millennial and gen Z gays because it's a microcosm of like the gay gig economy. Like RuPaul is like Intertuba. You have to do all of these like stupid things, like you have to do it all, like including like you know,

market yourself as a product. And like these poor queens who are like you know, amazing makeup artists and like hair artists and like you know, lip sync artists, actresses, like they're gonna go home on a challenge where they have to sell themselves as a product and like that's not just a showbiz maybe that's America. Like this is commentary. No, I think it's really brilliant, and I agree. I just love Drag Race. I've said this on the pod before.

I even though I feel like it's declined in quality, I do think that this panel of judges and Drew and Michelle specifically are just like some of the best, like the best that we can get in reality TV and reality competition doing things that are like sublime and cerebral and weird and inside jokey that you just don't see in other shows. And now it's like franchised and like you know this betham off that feels like something different, but it's still I mean, I also watch like every

fucking episode. We need David Lynch as a drag race guestrate. Yeah, he would. Actually, I feel like, you know, do right by the queens that I always gravitate towards, like you know, the Tammy Browns of Banina Bonina Browns, Yes of the world. Tammy Brown kind of is a Lynchian figure, absolutely, because there is there's She kind of is like a creature of Mulholland Drive, because like the sort of world of her character is this like idea of a Hollywood that

doesn't exist. I'm acting right, like like the she and the magazine like it's very sunset boulevard. Wait that is can I say? Can I say? That's so? I was going to ask you when you were talking about like Greta's drag race, I was going to ask you a stupid question like what is which drag race archetype? Are you in in this? Uh? In this contest? Like are you the look queen? Are you the comedy queen? Are you like the art performance like Willow Pill Jimbo type?

Like what are you giving? So certain? There's kind of like a broadness and like a an endedness too. I think a lot of the way the character some of these characters are distinguished. I don't want to give away too much, but I was asking about you personally. No, no, no, no, no, I know, but like for me, I was sort of like subliminally and like behind the scenes and what they wanted to do with my character knowing, you know, frankly, like they said, we want to use kind of like

what you're known for. So I'm kind of the look Queen love. That's what we need, thats what we need. Yeah, I've I've got a lot of costumes. I thought a lot of them in their crazy and I actually kind of helped design some of them. That's maybe that's fine, not like design design, but like you know, I made some I made color choices, I said, maybe that, you know, it was fun, it was a clever I even you know, helped call in some designer pulls as well. Yeah. No,

the power of the international implications of that. Oh listen. If if there's one like bonus thing I can bring to a film production, it's clothes. I've done that for every film that I've done in the past couple of years. Um, you know, there's there's this film that hasn't even been announced yet that I shot before Barbie that I think is going to be playing a festival later this year, and um, you know I called in looks for that. Um, okay,

so you are the look queen. I am, I'm the elusive Shantus and you're in your wig era, your Rita when she puts on the blonde wig. Well, I mean, we haven't even talked about the like blonde brunette thing, which is so important, so important, truly, it's it's the movie, it's thematically, you know, that's the engine. And now you're a redhead. Yeah. I wonder why. I wonder why. What could have prompted that decision? When did I go red? What was I doing at the time? Connecting the dots?

But you are now an iconic redhead? I feel really, I mean I am again, I only am saying it didn't feel iconic. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think I'm going to keep it for a second because it's just going to keep popping up. And like, I don't know when I went red, the demon came out. I went red right before that Fire Island summer, and girl, the demon the demon is quite frankly still out. The demon is subdued by eight shows a week and not having any energy to do anything other than have sex in

an office stairwell for like ten minutes. But um, yeah, I'm so flattered that you think I'm elusive because I don't feel that way, and I I'm like yeah, because I'm I'm like, I'm extrovert. I'm an over sure and it takes a lot of restraint not to just like shit post all the time. Both Irl and Urel, well, you seem to have um mastered it. I mean, virgins you can't tell, but I mean there's not even a

person in here in the room. It's just like a shifting shimmering that's kind of like a rip in the fabric of the universe, has red hair on top, and it's just a If you liked this episode with Harry,

you are in luck, babe, because there's more. We cut a little bit from this conversation and put it on our Patreon as part of an exclusive bonus episode, and you can get access to that, as well as weekly bonus episodes and lots of other fun content by going to patreon dot com slash like a Virgin and becoming one of the founding members of our Patreon for only five dollars a month. That's a deal, babe. Slide into our dms and let us know what's your favorite David

Lynch movie, what's your favorite season of drag Race? And go to Like a Virgin four twenty sixty nine dot com to buy our exclusive merch. You can't see right now, but like Rose and I are are wearing the hat. We're very QBC trying on the mallgoth hoodie. Okay, holding up our Galadriel tone look sickening, nickening. Also make sure that you're following us on Instagram at Like a Virgin four twenty sixty nine. I'm your co host Rosdamu. You can follow me anywhere you want at Rosdamu and I'm

France Ratta. You can find me at France squishco. And please give us five stars on Spotify, rate and review us, share our social channels all the time. Thank you. Like a Virgin is an iHeartRadio production. Our producers Phoebe and Winter was support from Lindcy Hawkman and Nikki Utour. Until next week. Go to Patreon dot com slash Like a Virgin. Bye h