Girls Girling: Work (Bonus)

like run our business. They are incredible women and they are so good at what they do and I am not. They are like, did you categorize your expenses yet? Did you look at this spreadsheet? You did? You? You know, make sure that this was filed and this was blah blah blah. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, I haven't done any of it because you know, we're money avoidant, which we've already talked about on this pod.

But for all being a freelancers hard, I know, And I'm just restarting that part of my life after two years of just having a job and not having to think about any of it. And like I filed for unemployment yesterday. I was like, oh, yeah, this is something that I have to deal with, and like I need to get on new health insurance after this month, and just all these things that I forgot that when you work for yourself, as freeing as that is, it also means that you have to do all of the other

stuff that is usually handled by the business who pays you. Yeah, and it's a lot. I mean, freelancing is like, it's just a huge adjustment. How are you adjusting. I mean, you're a you've only been in it for a short while, but like any like initial observations, I mean, I've only been in it for a short while time. I have been a freelancer for very very long periods of time

at different points in my life. I think what's different about it now is I'm now freelancing again after coming out of a job where I acquired the most stability and made the most money of my life. So it's

a big adjustment. It's also like a slightly easier adjustment because I like had capital for the first time in my life, which I think you know, a lot of people who listen to this podcast will probably understand what a foreign concept that can be when you're a queer person, when you're a freelancer, when you're creative, like the idea of having like real financial stability. So like, I am entering this new part of my life with you know, like savings and like a better idea of how to

manage my money. But I'm also entering this new part of my life with like much more expensive tastes than I've ever had. So I'm trying to figure out, like how do I somewhat maintain my lifestyle while working for myself and under standing that even though I know I'll be able to make money, it's not going to be in the same way where I'm like getting a really nice paycheck every two weeks. It might be like I'm getting a really nice paycheck every six months or something

like that. Um, and just figuring out what that looks like,

but it is it is extremely daunting to think about. Yeah, I I I feel like and we've talked about this before, just you and I, but like, to me, the rhythm that has worked for me, and the rhythm that you know obviously took a lot of work prior to that to get to this point is one wherein I can work a lot for a few months and then take three or four or five months off, Like I, I want to like take huge long breaks and then work huge amounts for a compact period of time, which is

like why I, you know, like or want to work in film and TV. I love working on like project based things. I like working in births. And I feel like you are kind of like that too. I am too, and I've been experiencing it on a smaller scale as I'm working on a book, because I like, yesterday I

felt like I had a really unproductive day. I watched two episodes of a docuseries about fundamentalist Mormonism and then wrote like four hundred words, And I felt like that was a really unproductive day because like, yes, I wrote those four hundred words in like forty five minutes, and like to some people, that might seem like a lot, but I find myself thinking, oh, why can't I just do that eight hours a day, Like then I could

finish this book in like a couple of weeks. But I'm like understanding that it takes me that whole day of not writing to write, like that's all the creative energy I have for that day, and I also can't like pop an adderall every day and write for five hours. It's just not realistic. Yeah, I mean, like I although I will be doing that this afternoon. Yeah, I know,

I have like a long day ahead of me. There are something like I'm starting to get into the rhythm of like, Okay, what are the days that I can be okay with just like doing a little editing or like writing a couple paragraphs or writing one scene, And then what are the days when I'm like going to take an adderall, drink a bunch of coffee, sit down at my table, and sit down on my computer and like right four five to eight hours and that's yeah. My my routine is like when I am working or

when I am in a writing groove. It's like I love mornings and I love working in the morning. I try to have like a short period like while I have my coffee and just like listen to music or what or like you know whatever where I'm not doing work. But outside of that, I usually will just work a lot and then I have to be done by like

two pm. Like that is I wake up early enough where I and this is like just what works for me, Like everyone who if you're a freelancer at home, like you have to find your own rhythm and what works for you. Some people are night owls, some people work in afternoons, some people only like to work three days a week or whatever. For me, it's like I work most days, including weekends, but my brain is leaving at three PM, and so I honor that by just not

working after three. And you know, sometimes that's not always an option for me. Sometimes I have obligations or records or meetings or gigs, but you know, I try, I try to to keep that because I don't want to work all day. You know, no, no one wants to work all day. And yeah, I'm I'm like kind of

the opposite. I find myself feeling more creative in the afternoon, like giving myself the morning to like run my errands and like be a person kind of by then the juices have like reached the level where I can write in the afternoon. I've been trying to get back into the artist's way, which I was doing for a little bit in the winter, and doing and doing morn it really it really is, and like I guess, like I

do understand, I understand the point of it. Which is like it's getting you in the habit of just producing writing without thinking about it. And when I am writing, like form my from my novel, that is sometimes the hardest thing to do is just to get stuff down on the page because I sit there and like second guess myself and um, the hardest part for me is like getting out the pages and the plot. Um. I'm really good like going back and editing and punching things

up and like adding voice. So I do think like I should be trying more to do morning pages just to get myself in that habit, but it's so hard. The last thing I want to do the first thing in the morning when I wake up, is fucking right, three pages of stream of consciousness. Bullshit. Yeah, that's not really my process either. I would love to be at that writing level. And I think, you know, when I do get into like real book work territory, like I hope that I can find like a writing groove because

I have before. But a lot of stuff that I'm doing these days is like not a ton of writing. I set aside days to do writing for like whether it's like working on my show or working on my book. But yeah, I don't know, I think the idea of like productive days is something that we as a culture like need to move away from anyways, Like just the idea of productivity in general, and like that being your only worth is Like there are as when I just

I just can't. I don't have the energy too. And that's the whole reason why I don't have a job anymore, because I don't want to be adherent to like having to produce something every day. But it's crazy to think that I can't wake up in the morning and just like write a couple of pages when like the first time we ever worked together, when we were working in media, like I used to wake up in the morning and like write my first news story of the day in

bed on a Google doc on my phone. Yeah, I mean that is incredible, and I would I wish I possessed that kind of talent. I could never, but I remember that era of our lives. I'll say, Um, I our our our friend Channy gave me this book called Do Nothing by Celeste Headley. It's a very Channey book to give. Yeah, I know, right, Honestly, I think the book is a little bit of a misnomer. I think

it should be called do Less, not do nothing. But the book is basically a out how to and I, you know, I unfortunately I'm like the target demographic for any kind of self help book or any sort of like philosophical kind of like life you know, advice book.

But the book helps you deconstruct how the invention of the workforce in this country has like poisoned all of our minds into thinking that even our idle time, even our alone time, even our freelancer time, or we don't have a boss or anybody supervising us, like even then, we're still beating ourselves up. If I like wake up and I watch you know, legendary for three hours or whatever. And but like sometimes you have to have those days.

And I think that you just like kind of have to tell yourself that you're enough and that just because you didn't work nine to five, which if you work for yourself, why would you work nine to five? First of all, but second of all, it's just like you have to like rid yourself with that. I would recommend that book to truly anyone. If you read even the first five pages, you'd be hooked. What's the worst job you've ever had? Um? I used to work at a

bagel store. And I was in college at a frat run Indiana State School, and I worked the hangover shift on Saturday and Sunday mornings, so I dealt with the worst sorority girls being like can I have my bagels scooped at like, you know, seven thirty in the morning or whatever. And I was always late for the shift. It was such an early shift. I was inevitably fired, of course, because I, you know, overslept my shift I think maybe twice. Um, But you know, I hated that

job and it was for the better. What about you? I think my worst job was my first real media job, UM, when I worked at Next Magazine, which if anyone doesn't know what that is, it's, um, it's a it's a magazine that used to be magazine is a generous term. Yeah, it's a it's a pamphlet that was that was free in in gay bars and um other queer spaces around New York City. Um. And I was the nightlife editor there and UM, I had the worst boss have ever

had treaty? Like what were they like? Um, just like a total fucking monster and like really did not like me. The thing is like it was a job that afforded me so many opportunities because it was also the time of my life when I was going out the most and when I was a club kid. So I like had this magazine job forty hours a week and then was going out forty hours a week on top of that. Um. So that's probably also part of the reason why it

was bad. Um. But it was a job where I like the main bulk of the things I wrote were like party descriptions for like the Weekend Guide and like go to Barracuda to see Tina Burner, like that kind of shape, you know, and like there were good parts of it. It definitely helped me make a lot of connections. I got to like interview a lot of cool people

because of it. But it was a bad job. And I've and I've had I've had jobs that I think were like worse in terms of the realities of them, like jobs where I had worse working conditions or worse hours or um whatever. But I think because that was like, in so many ways, my first job where I felt like I was doing something that was about like my talents and what I was interested in, That's why it sucked the most. But it is the thing that got me into you know, quote unquote media. Um, what job

was that for you? Like your first media job. I mean, my actual first media job was working at a local newspaper in Indiana in college. And I was at that news desk literally every single day of the week, seven days a week. And I'm pretty sure that the number of hours I clocked, I was probably getting paid like cents an hour, like it was. I was paid nothing.

And you know, my first New York media job, I worked brief briefly in book publishing as a studio manager in the cover guard department at Random House, which was horrible and I hated it. And you know, I didn't use any of my skill sets. Um, but it was

a job and I inevitably left that job. Was the very first time I ever quit my job to be an editor at or an editor assistant rather at a magazine, a queer independent magazine that paid me, I want to say, seventeen thousand dollars a year, like as a contractor so

like after Texa's like nothing. I hope that like the virgins at home, like, you know, we started off this conversation, rather I started off this conversation being like I like to work a lot and then take five months of a break, which is a very unrelatable thing to say if you don't have that kind of like workflow or money flow. But everyone at home has to know, as we're talking about now, that we started from the bottom.

From the bottom, I mean when I when I worked it next to do and have been underpaid for a decade, over a decade, yeah, I mean when I worked it next I left, they're making thirty five thousand dollars a year, which in New York that's actually huge. Yeah, like salary to me for for a really for like a magazine of that scale, that is very sadly and unfortunately like to me a high salary. Yeah, because you know, spoiler alert to anyone looking to get into media, it is

not well, it's not well paying. It is really hard to make real money working in media. That's why so many people have jump ship to work in tech and entertainment. Um. But the thing about working in media is that like you at least attempt to you know, split the difference with all of the perks that come from it. And

that is what I did for years. I know, like you you did as well, you know, like getting the free stuff that sent to you, like going to events for free, um, going on press trips, like you know, the whole last couple of years before I stopped working in you know, like traditional media, I was you know, traveling most of the time. I was like getting sent

free close. I was going to like parties every week, and like drinking free drinks and eating free food and like the you know, the perks are nice, but like they only exist because you don't make any money when I I mean similarly, similarly, yes, I also had those perks, but like the travel and the parties and the connections or whatever, you're like, I'm I'm in it. Um. I also like definitely went out four to seven nights a week, um, which like when I was an editor, I considered part

of the job. You know. I was like getting drinks with prospective writers, are people that I wanted to work with, are going to work functions or like just putting myself out there at parties, which I mean this isn't true of every job, but like, if you work in a metropolis area and you work in an industry where connections matter, showing up the parties is of my success. You know like that that's where you meet and start to foster relationships with so many people that I work with now.

And then the rest is you know over Instagram, you're really good at networking. I happened to be terrible at it. You know, I disagree, I I I think so. Here's actually the thing is, it's not that either of us are good or about at networking. It's that we're actually I feel really good at the anti networking networking because to me, I think networking is actually like really gross and you have to do it sometimes, but you do it so well. Oh here's the thing, girl, I work

with my friends. That's not always true, but like I work with my duties, and I have a lot of them. I have a huge group of people in my community that I consider friends in addition to colleagues and collaborators. And obviously a lot of these relationships are different and have different nuances. But like, I am very adamant about getting to know someone first in a deep and meaningful way before I ask them for something. And if I don't know them, it's just like why even bother asking?

Because if you think you can like reach out to someone and ask someone for a favor after you've quote unquote networked with them once at a cocktail party. Like it's not really going to foster like a real relationship. I mean, people chout to me and ask me for favors who I have no idea who they are like, And this is something you start to realize once you like are a very social person, have any sort of

like platform. This is definitely something I experienced, like when I was a club kid, is that people have these entire relationships with you that you are not actually a part of, and they feel really comfortable asking you for things. Like for me, it used to be like can you get me into this party? Can you get me a connection with someone you work with? Can you get me a podcast? Like I have a Netflix show? Can you

help me get it made? Like the things that people you know, I understand people shooting their shot and I have certainly shot my shot with people before. But you're right, like it's really weird when there's not some actual kind of like connection or investment. And like I am very careful about the people who I work with who I

also have some kind of personal connection to. I mean that that is very much the story of this podcast is like, you know, Fran and I used to work together, and I told them on the day they told me they were leaving to go work at Netflix, that we could finally be friends because we didn't work together anymore. We had and then become friends just a little, just a little tiny bit, just a little I liked you, well,

we'll say that I I liked you. And then and then when we, you know, started making this podcast, we were both very clear that our friendship was more important than this podcast, and that this was something that could only happen if it felt like based on the reality of our friendship and if like our real life relationship always came first before the work. Absolutely, and I hope that's true of anybody that tries to work with someone

who they're friends with. But like back to the networking at of all of it all, It just like networking just needs to be eradicated because if you're going into a conversation with someone thinking about like what they can do for you, Obviously sometimes it's a natural like your brain just does that as a natural byproduct. But if you're just looking at this person the whole time as an opportunity you the whole time, girl, Yeah, the whole time,

you're just like set up for failure. Like I approach people as humans first, and I have like become friends with people who I either worked with once or I went into it and in the back of my brain I was like, wow, like what an amazing connection and I bet they can help me do something. And years later we are still like amazing friends or like really close duties and I've never asked anything from them or vice versa. And I feel like that to me, is it right? It's like, figure out how can how it

can be a real relationship first? Is like to me, what builds great things? Because I think some of the best things are built with like collaboration and with community. So we have a very interesting question that producer Phoebe has posed um about us being business partners, which is if we went to platonic couples therapy it would be

to discuss blank. I mean, god, I don't know about this. Um. I will say everyone should do couples therapy, like couples in general, even if you don't have problems, should be on couples therapy. I think friends that ever you know, work together or like have a lot of moving parts in their friendship. Like I think joint therapy is like amazing, so you know, you don't necessarily have to have problems

to get to the therapy part. Yes, but like we do have problems, and I will say so, this is actually something that Fran and I have already talked about this year, and it was like a hard thing for me to dig into on my own. But for me, what I would want to talk about would be my um codependence because I moved to l a mid pandemic.

Fran is one of my closest friends in the city and we also work together, and so like it got to a point in the winter where not only my social life but my professional life we're all wrapped up

in one person. And like, you know, you and I talked about this, like you can't be all both of those things all the time for me, And it's definitely I don't know that it's an issue anymore that I would want to work on in couples therapy, but like that to me is one of the things that you know, if you and I had at any point gone to like a friend therapist together, that's what I would have talked about, which is like I need to be more independent, um,

and I can't rely on you for all these things. Yeah, okay, yeah, that's that's true. That's true. And we did we Do you think that's not do you think that's not what it should be? No? I was trying to think of what mine would what I would say and I feel for me it would be about like the way I communicate when work and friendship is bored and you and this is like something it's so funny because on a few bonus Episodgo you were like, fran you're not that nice,

which I take as a compliment. Still like but it but it had the truth behind that is like I can be extremely direct with my friends in a way that's just not very friendly. And I think a lot of times I would say that nine times had a ten. When that happens with someone that I love, it's because I'm in between work functions or like I'm in between meetings or I'm in passing and I'm you know, doing a bunch of things and I'm just like I didn't I forgot to snap out of work mode. And when

I'm working, I'm I'm very direct. I'm very like philosophically against like, um, what we call soft language weak language, like I just like say what I want to say, but that you lacks humanity and empathy. And I think a lot of the times, not just with this podcast, but with Food for Thought. Who I mean, if you think you've seen Frand in an ugly work era, you should see me during food Food for a Thought, because those girls and I had a reckoning that I mean,

everybody had a part to play. But like, I can be a monster when I am in work mode, and it's something that I have grown so much from and I'm really proud of that. Like I don't feel like I have those issues on a day to day anymore, but I have come very far because like I'm I'm I'm embarrassed of how I treated my colleagues at Food for Thought, um, you know, in the first year or

two of our podcast. And I'm really grateful that, you know, they have since accepted my apology and that we all work together so well and lovingly now, you know, well, like the best thing that your friends and collaborators can do, I believe is not to you know, be egoey about it, but call you in and call you out and be like, hey, you're doing something that is making me feel bad or making it hard to work with you, And I would rather us talk about it than it like build up

into something bigger. Like I have so appreciated the times when you've come to me with things like that. I've really appreciated when I've come to you in those moments and you've been really receptive and like have been like, you know what, you're totally right, like and like validated

my experience. And I think it's only through being that kind of honesty is anyone able to keep working together and maintaining a friendship, Because like, you can work with people you hate, but I think it's a lot harder to work with people that you love or it's just like a different kind of complicated. I agree, And you know that's why I think that this podcast just that's why we try to keep the stakes as low as possible. We try to keep it fun and something that we

both look forward to. I mean, we're not even like

making any money right now, you know what I mean. Like, I hope that the virgins at home can continue to like share this podcast more and more, especially during Pride season, because you know, when we do get better numbers that means actual advertising income for us, but like right now, like you know, we're just this is just fun, UM, and I feel like that has helped us stay honest about you know how it like stems for from our relationship and like the work life balance to strike from that.

And speaking of supporting this podcast, we are doing our first ever live event in New York City on June and you should really come to it if you live in or around New York. So fruitely, thank you so much for listening to another one of our Pride Bonus episodes, UM special thanks to our producer Phoebe and our entire team at my Heart. See you Thursday for our regularly scheduled episode, and again, please get tickets for our first

live show. You can go to either of our Instagram's in the link in our bio or go to our burner account at like a Virgin for see you later. Virgins by