Girls Girling: Erotica (Bonus)

sexual awakenings. Um, but that that feels that feels a little close to like talking about, you know, like a formative piece of media as we would in a normal episode. But I did think they were really sexy. My Internet had like parental controls on it, so I actually couldn't access porn from my home computer because it would like send a little like Larry, Larry, you can't go here whatever.

But I was able to like, you know, search on YouTube like boys Kissing, which would lead me to basically clips of porn without the porn in it, like what everything that happens before after? That's my favorite part. I can't watch porn unless it has a storyline. Do you watch a lot of porn. No, no, not really. I watch a lot of Only Fans. I think that, honestly,

that's something that I'm discovering about. Like what turns me on is like a live component or like an intimate component of like me feeling like I know where I am invested in, like the porn actor in some way. And Only Fans makes like performers a lot more human and a lot more accessible, and you get to see more of their every day, and so that I think brings me closer to something that is like a turn on.

I don't know if that even makes sense, but like I also like I am very this is like maybe t M I, but like I love like comboys because it's like a live thing, you know, and like, so that's so interesting. Isn't that weird? But I think it. I think it makes sense for you, um like that you need some kind of personal investment to get off.

I think that there's like a there's an intimacy in that, and like sometimes you know when you like send tips or whatever and they say your name or they say whatever your screen name is, and I'm like, like that is like what I like. I like that, like the intimacy do you also look for intimacy in your personal sex life, like do you need do you need like some kind of connection with the people you're hooking up with,

or like can you do really casual sex? I I definitely in the last year have tried to do more like a non hookups, like people that I see once or twice and then I never see again. It's never as satisfying as when I'm you know, I've at least been chatting with that person for a little bit, you know. I think I definitely do look for I don't even know if intimacy is the right word, but it because that word can be very loaded in the romantic terrain, but it really is intimacy or maybe safety, I think.

But I think you can have intimacy with someone who you only have sex with once, like you can have really intimate sex with a complete stranger. In fact, that is like my favorite kind of interaction is something that feels really intimate but actually has no commitment element to it, Like it doesn't like it could I can maybe never see this person again, but I get the intimacy still, which that's kind of why I love like for play,

and I love that that kind of build up. What about you liked, I d you need intimacy to have sex, I say that kind of physics. I I certainly don't UM, and I certainly do not, and I actually kind of prefer casual encounters UM to use the language of Craigslist. And I almost have recently started to wonder if I might fall somewhere and like the demi romantic spectrum. But I also don't know if that's like more of a byproduct of circumstance rather than something that actually is like

deeply true about me. But you know, like the obviously you know, I'm coming at this through the lens of of my life pre pandemic, and I feel like I can't use that excuse forever, Like my sexuality can't always have an asterisk on it, because like we are at least somewhat back to you know, quote unquote normal in

the ways in which we we can have sex. But I still think about my sexuality in terms of like my old life, which was like pre pandemic, before I lived in Los Angeles, when I mostly my most fulfilling sexual encounters were like I was traveling so much, and like I loved um, you know, having a having a support in every store I'm having, you know, like like

finding new lovers in every city. You know, I would, I would be traveling and I would hook up with a new person every night, and like that was so fulfilling to me, just the constant newness because I am definitely a person who it is really hard for me to be seen intimately in a in a deep way. I don't mean just like the pure like aesthetics of it. I think it does become difficult for me to let my guard down with people I'm having sex with, and

I know that that can be super fulfilling. Like actually, the last lover I had, um lover, that word, not lover. The last person I've had sex with was someone who really challenged that for me, and it led to a really amazing sexual encounter, someone who kind of wouldn't let me have the wall up and engage with them in a different way. But yeah, so, so I don't know if that's just like, um, this thing that I've done to guard myself. I don't know if that actually works

for me anymore. It certainly was at one point in time. Yeah, I think I think something of the same thing, but in the reverse. It's like I think that I actually required safety in my interactions with people to my detriment and actually did not have as much sex as I could have had in my early twenties because I was just too scared of being hurt, or too scared of random encounters or like seeing someone for only one night.

But like you actually kind of answered a question that I was going to ask, which is like defense mechanisms come up in everyone's bedrooms, you know what I mean, And so it makes sense that, you know, the way that we sleep with people is a byproduct of like

how we come up in the world. And I think that, like everyone everyone, everyone should like challenge their desires and they're like needs, they're kind of what they think their needs are in the bedroom because a lot of times we tell ourselves and I'm honestly just talking to myself at this point because I've like thought about this so much, but I feel like I tell myself a narrative about me and what I like and what I don't like, and yeah, I do too, and it's it's it's an

extension of what we were talking about last week when when I talked about how you know, I like to present as more aloof than I actually am, you know, publicly, and I do definitely that definitely extends to my private life too. I am very guarded. I'm a cancer. You know, I'm an extremely like moody, emotional person. But I do have a very hard shell, um and very soft meat

fighting shell. Crap, mom, yes, um I this I you know, We're in a serious part of the converst So I'm going to move us along to the stupid part, which is that, like, um something else, like in terms of the narratives that we tell ourselves about sex, I am in my top era and right now, and I never saw that for myself because I love that for you. Oh my god, what is Phoebe? Phoebe sends a hearty Phoebe. Are you also in your top era? We're all in our top eras well. I'm in my ace era. Actually,

oh I love an ace era too. But like my point is, like I have kind of even though I was a top for my first relationship, which was a year and a half long relationship, I basically rescinded to like being a bottom for like a decade. Um, not exclusively a bottom like I topped here and there, but like I told myself, like, my preference is bottoming, and this is what I enjoy, and this is just what easy,

what's easiest. But like, honestly, I was just picking the thing that made me the least anxious, and that's not a good enough reason to like pick a sexual preference. Like I would much rather challenge myself. So I think that's so cool, especially considering that you are also I think the most fem you have ever been. I love I love that that like is directly correlating to you entering like a more I mean maybe like dominant or aggressive like part of your sexuality. Um. I love that

you're a blouse. I love that I'm a blouse. Yes, I'm actually a blouse and um, I yeah, I mean it was maybe a byproduct of like dating someone who was maybe more of a bottom. But like when I did top, I was like awoken and I was like, I had no idea that I had all of this energy and me it had been a few years since I had topped, and I was like, I love this. What have I been borrowing? What have I been borrowing myself from? You know? Um, but that I think I

actually feel like I know a lot of people. I'm wondering if you know people who you know were tops there for like years and years and then one day they were like, oh my god, I'm a bottom and I had no idea, Like I I was kind of I was kind of the opposite. I was like a bottom for so long and discovered really actually I became a top post transition really, but I actually am kind of true verse. I can really go either way. Really

depends on the person. I do love topping though it's so fun, and I also think it is as someone who is very verse and has had bottom eras top eras. I do think that there is a certain amount of hiding you can do as a bottom. I have definitely had times where I've been a bottom where I felt like sex was something that happened to me rather than something I was like a really active participant in um.

And I do find that when I am topping, like I'm much more engaged and unless able to to be guarded, which I do think goes against what society tells us, which is that, like, you know that the top, the like aggressor insex is the more like masculine, dominant like guarded one, the one who's like bringing less of their emotions and like less vulnerability to sex. Um, why do you think that I I have found in my own

experience it to be like very much the opposite. Like I really like when I am the top in a sexual scenario, I feel like I'm being much more active and like caring for the person that I'm topping, and it breaks me out of myself. That makes sense to me. I mean when when I am bottoming, I feel like I just don't want to do it. I feel like a total pillow princess, like I really just want to

lay there. And so yeah, I mean, obviously these are really rudimentary like ideas of of topping and bottoming, like you can be a very dominant bottom if you want to or whatever. But that was not me. I was just like, I'm tired, and you need to make all the decisions, please, because it's not really about work, Like I'm happy to put in the work, but I don't want to make decisions. And that's kind of where I'm

coming from now. It's like interesting that you brought up like me being very fem right now and like me landing at where I am with my gender. It's like I do really want to be bossed around. And I know that's like a really flat way of looking at gender, but like sometimes it is really affirming for someone to

come in and like tell you what to do. Um and I I I think a out of the reasons that I attract TOPS is because you know, I'm like wearing lingerie and like a lot of in like my photos or like I just you know, have a fem vibe sometimes not all the time, but like depending on the photo, and so you know, people want me to be their momy, you know what I mean. People get really stuck on the trappings and trimmings of things, and they make a lot of expectations about what you're into

based on how you show up in the world. And I mean, I don't think it's about like mascrofem man or woman gender at all. I think it's really interesting that people see you in a more feminine presentation and expect you to be less assertive or dominant sexually. And I just like that you are like finding a version of yourself that is going to show up in the world in the sissy way that you want to. And also like fuck someone, like the ship out of someone. Yeah,

I think that's really cool. There is a lot of code switching that has to happen sometimes for me, Like whether I show up in the bedroom as like very dummy or like very like pillow princess is usually contingent on, honestly, the size of the person, like if I'm gonna if I'm like fucking a twink, they want me to be daddy,

and it's like, okay, cool, like I'll be dead. I mean I'm never I don't really like I'll reject the term daddy, but like that's the vibe of what they want, and so if they need me to be that, like sure, like I will, I will do that. Um. But I sometimes feel like it's so weird, but like and I wish this wasn't true, but like sometimes you know, you have to code switch, and you have to like put on a specific kind of vibe for guys to be

in you. And I think sometimes the most I think the reason I have, you know, been a quote unquote bottom for so long is in large part because I've been trying to present like my most feminine self and show up as that person, like show up as myself in the bedroom. Um, And so you know that's like the role they want me to play, but like in in reality it's like I I actually like, if I really want to get laid, like I do have to look like a man a lot of the times, not

to everybody, because some guys are into andreas. Sometimes I think the best partner for me is someone who's into fagotry, into general nonconformity, like someone who really wants to play with me. But I mean not all of them. Yeah, I I do find that who I don't need to code switch for or like adjust my presentation or like feel worried about how I'm being viewed is for women, and like that is a part of my sexuality that

I want to spend more time with. But certainly like in my sexual experiences with women, like I did not feel like I had to fulfill some kind of like

expectation for them, which was really nice. Yeah, I think you're going to hate that I'm bringing this up, But like I think a lot about the Euphoria special episode with Hunter Shaffer where she's in the therapist office and I'm sure you've seen the screen grab everywhere, but she says something to the effect of I've kind of built my entire girlhood based on what men want and what men desire, and that is like so embarrassing, and that hit me so hard, Like that moment of television hit

me so hard because I was like, oh my god, I really have built like my mustache or like my Jim routine, or like my wardrobe around being a track dive two men. And at the end of the day, like I want to fuck faggots, and I want to fuck people that are on the gender spectrum, you know what I mean, And and I I do think obviously a lot of times we say faggots, people think men,

but like I that's not my definition of faggot. And I know there's a class of women of trans women that identify as faggots general that I know, yeah, and the general conforming people that you know count themselves among faggots. And like I'm I'm hot for general not conformity, and so that's what I want to pull in. And that was a really big shift for me in like my gender expression and like what I kind of wanted out

of the world. And even though I still have to code switch, even though rather I indulge in a code switch sometimes sometimes you know, I just want it and that's it. But I think the best sex for me comes from when I can actually be myself. And I think that I think about the Hunter Shapeer thing a lot.

You know, I have not seen that episode, and like we all know how I feel about euphoria, but I think coming at this from the point of view of someone who's attracted to men and women, I in the early days of my transition, like so much of the affirmation I got was from feeling sexually desired by men,

specifically for the feminine way I presented um. But then as I started to get further along in my transition and presenting as a woman, the thing that was more affirming for me was women seeing me as a woman

and not not always in a sexual way. And I think one of the one of the things I realized very early on is, especially when you're talking about transamorous men, is like that affirmation that you get from them is like so fleeting and fickle, but it is really powerful, and I think I'm at a point where it doesn't

really matter to me as much. But again, like that could also be as I was talking about before, just like a product of circumstances and a lie that I tell myself, I don't know where I get validation from now, I don't know where I get sexual validation from. I might not get it. I don't feel very sexually embodied where I am now, which is like really weird for me because it's something that at a different point on my timeline was extremely important and like kind of central

to the way I interacted with the world. Yeah, it's so, I mean, like it's funny because like we pretend to like have all the answers, and I think a lot of times, especially when all this stuff gets entangled in gender, like we tiptoe around what we actually want to say because we don't want to, you know, negate or invalidate what our gender experience has been and we don't want

to be actually totally forthcoming about it. And but like obviously, I mean with this is just for me specifically, but you know, I still have a certain kind of privilege of like passing as a man to some people, or some people perceive me as a man, and so I benefit from that sometimes. But I also feel like I just can't hold onto that like too much, otherwise it's going to inform so much of like what I think I deserve. You know. It's a really it's a really

slipper of Charlie. It's a really slippery slope because I have similar dark thoughts where I'm sometimes miss the sex that I used to have when I was when I was a boy, not that I was ever a boy, when I was pretending to be a boy, I don't know, maybe when you were doing boy drag when Yeah, like I sometimes really miss gay sex guard and that is a that is a really hard thing to admit to think of out because there's so much baggage that comes with it, and I almost feel like, um, you know,

I'm waiting for someone to like come out and be like, see, see you were it's all fake, we were right. But I have to, you know, own up to that because it's true. It's how I spent most of my life, Like, the majority of my life up until now, I most of my sexual experience was that. Um, a much smaller portion of my sexual experience has been having sex with

people who saw me as a woman. So yeah, and that's I feel like I'm hopefully like on that cusp of a moment where like I feel like I don't I shouldn't have to need sex with men that need to perceive me as a man. You know what I mean? Like I I mean as I'm like exploring like body modification and like looking at like how I dress more, and like I I feel like my gender expression is now represented my grinder profile or whatever. It's like I am.

I'm reconciled to the fact that like I won't, I will be having sex with a different pool of people now. But that's the pool of people that I want to have sex with. And even if it feels more difficult to me or anyone like, it's ultimately worth it. Question mark. I mean, it's I I understand because I am passed a point in my life where I want to have sex with people who aren't queer and who won't get it, and who don't care about all of that other stuff.

I'm no longer looking for validation other than sexual from sex, or or that's at least the goal. M Yeah, I think so too. I I would hope that's that's true. If I get like a gender affirmation, it would just be like a a lucky byproduct, I would hope. But I want I want someone who's not who's not going to care and like I want to have sex with someone who wants to fuck a queer body and not that's anything else period. That's exactly where I'm at. Like the guys that slide into my d m s that

are like immediately get it. Yeah, that's my I'm like, there's this that trade in Orlando that I talked about the other episode. That trade is like he's like, I'm gonna get you so fucking pregnant. Like that's like his vibe and that. Like those guys, I'm like, you see me girl, Like okay, let's do this. Like, oh, I would love to get you pregnant, friend, No, I I actually think I would like to see you get pregnant, Like I feel like you should do like a pregnancy

photo shoot. Like James Charles. Why are you just bringing with James Charles? You know you are the one who's upset. You brought it up every time you brought it up. Every time. It's one of us brings up James Charles almost every episode. Okay, So producer Phoebe has blessed us with some really great questions trying to dig even further

into our personal lives. So, Fran are you existentially massochistic or sadistic or both or neither m M. I went to dinner with my co organizers of Brooklyn Liberation last Friday and we were literally just like you know, getting pizza at some restaurant, and we got onto this topic almost immediately. I don't even know how it happened, but like I'm a very like I'm an energy feeler. UM. I don't know what like label that is, but like I'm someone who I'm turned on by what you're turned

on by. UM, I definitely personally and into a more kind of massochistic or rather what's the different? Maybe the difference maybe we should clarify do you do you do you enjoy receiving pain or do you enjoy giving pain? I prefer receiving pain, but I love to give it if you're into it. I'm never going to be the one that's like I want you to feel pain, but I will ask you to slap me like in the face. You know what I mean. I do know what you mean,

and that I was gonna say. I to ask you the question, what are what's your relationship to that kind of like you know how that comes into bedroom. I actually want to I want to hear what you think my answer is, and then I want to give you the real answer. I think that you love pain insects, but I think that you like to give it as

much as you like to receive it. I think in maybe some of your past, like you maybe were the pain giver, and you, like I think from what I know about you, like you like to be the person in control of the situation. Obviously in a B D s M relationship, like both partners are meant to have control and that's that's key to it working. But like I think you like to give, but like I think, deep down in your heart, you would much rather just receive and not have to do any of the work. Um. Wow,

you you got it, like almost exactly right. Clarify what what's what's the what's the addendum? Okay, So I I think I like the aesthetic of doling out pain and punishment, whether the whips. Yeah, And I do think a lot of the pain You're right is about control, and there are specific things like I'm a biter. I really like I'm a really hard biter. Um, I love to, like,

you know, give a fun little spanking. But yeah, I I think it's less about sex and more like I think me as a person, I do enjoy a level of pain. I like making things hard for myself. Um yeah, yeah, And I definitely am um a physical, emotional, and spiritual masochist. And your pain threshold is very high. I feel like, yes, I'm very good at enduring pain, both in like a very specific localized sense and in a more existential way

as well. I have a hard time finding partners that will like kind of incentivize that kind of pain play, Like, I feel like I usually have to ask for it. But like I think in general, when it comes to like most people that or maybe middle have middle of the road sex life, it's like we're too scared to ask about those things. But if you're into it, you should go for it, you know, with the sign obviously. I think the way it shakes out for me is that I don't want to receive pain from someone who

asks if they can dole it out. I want to be the one who asks for it. And then on the flip side, I don't want to give pain to someone who really needs it. I want it to be something that I ask for and they offer up to me. Control play control by Jenne Jacks Jennet Jackson said, this is the lock about control. I knew you were at Oh my god, the same worm brain. Um well, that's amazing. I'm so glad we were able to have that conversation without invoking fifty shades of grace on how I mean,

I just still could. We're still good. Thank you for listening to another one of our Pride bonus episodes. You can follow me and Fran online if you want to, um, I'm everywhere at Rose Dam you and I'm at France squish coat anywhere you want, and also follow our burner Instagram account at like a Virgin for and send us some questions like what secrets do you want us to dish out in the next special Pride episode, of which

we are releasing every week this Pride Month. Yes, and thank you so much to our producer Phoebe and our whole team at my heart that's right, See you later, Visions,