From the Chandelier

from a Fandilier chandelier. And so Fran I finally watched Obsessed last night. My god, Yes, and we're going to talk about Obsessed and also maybe like some other psycho sexual thrillers like yeah, like a fatal Attraction, basic instinct based on the girl, the invention of the psycho herod and woman exactly exactly, because this is like a virgin where we give yesterday's pop culture today's takes. I'm ros Damo and I'm Fran Toronto, and by the end of

this episode I will have killed Fran with a chandelier. Well, I mean that's kind of most episodes, to be honest, because I'm what the Phantom of the Opera, Franny, What did you do this weekend? So I saw our boys in Muna perform Silk Chiffon to the Staples Stadium which is now known as the Crypto dot Com Stadium, but like it was a stadium, which is the most important part of the Crypto dot Com Stadium. That's amazing, Yeah it is. I was so happy to see that song

performed such a huge audience. Like I'm so proud of Muna and everything they've done so far. And that's as you know, we just look love it so hard, sick cheff on and you were in the music video speaking so truly a full circle moment. And let me tell you, speaking of uncle hat you have you seen Casey musgraveson concert before? Wouldn't care to to be honest, Okay, so I may change your opinion on that. You won't. Okay,

love that love love love. How malleable you are. This is not is not a yes and to day this is a note, but day and I accept that. I accept you where you are. Um, Casey is she's a very chill performer. She's a chill girl, she's a stoner. She doesn't I was boring. No, no, no, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that you wouldn't expect her to pull out all the stops for a

stadium tour, like you think she might just do it straight. However, she did pull out seven all stops um and I will also say Casey's voice is perfection Crystalline performed live, she sounds exactly like the recording she is like. I think her voice is very simple. I don't mean simple as a dig I mean that she is very much like a country star and that she's not like wailing on her songs. It's like a very heart felt, like clear tone. It's very pure, and so I would imagine

that that that that translates really well to live performance. Yeah, it did, because she's not pulling in Adena Manzell and doing something in the booth that she can't do on stage. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly a t But she was amazing, and so I had just have to describe a few moments for you.

First of all, hit me. Halfway through she goes, oh, yeah, like we're gonna do casey Oki and I have a list of four songs, and one of you can pick the song that we're going to do a karaoke two together, which I thought was so cute. And she pulls out this scroll and it's like nine to five by Dolly Parton, killing Me Softly, No Scrubs and Dreams by Fleetwood Mac, which is like an amazing group of songs. Which one

would you have picked? By the way, Uh, if we're talking like a traditional karaoke scenario, I'm probably going with no Scrubs, Okay, Okay, I would have picked no Scrubs or ninety five. I think everyone around me was like, if you and I were doing karaoke together as a pair, we would do nine to five. Okay, that is t for sure. She finds a girl in the front who it's like her birthday person. You can't you can't assume

this person's gender. I actually can. I this was definitely this woman because it was her birthday, and it was like it felt like a you know, a bachelorette party kind of vibe. And she's like, this girl is maybe like bachelor X. You don't right, right, right, right, of course, of course, and so this girl's maybe like sixteen seventeen okay, And Casey really says to her like, don't sunk this up. Like this is like you're picking the song that we all want to hear. It's a lot of pressure. It

is actually the girl picks killing me softly. Casey, who is definitely stoned, has already talked about being on xan X and did a shot of tequila on stage, is like totally over the whole experience in a in a good way, like a very like chill girl way. And she looks at the girl whose birthday it is, and she goes, I'm sorry, you picked wrong, and we're gonna do nine. But well, it's kind of case it's fault for putting that on the list. Yeah, it is actually

her fault. And and and she knew the song that she wanted to do. And it's iconic though to crush this girl's birthday. You know, I wonder if that girl would killed herself. She did it on the right person. No, don't kill yourself, You're so sexy. She threw this, She threw the scroll to her, so like, I think that was like her consolation prize. But Rose, there's a moment at the end of this concert where I thought of you. I wish I had gotten it on video. I I

felt your energy so clearly at that moment. Okay, what read is this gonna be? No, it's not. It's a compliment. Casey ended with Gracia Slavita, which is like this kind of like activist folk song from I want to say, well, this song is kind of a bummer, and it's also not a song that I really would have wanted her to do at our concert, And I was like, why

is she doing this song? And towards the end of the song, the curtains open and there's this big staircase that she kind of ascends, and there's like big lights behind her. It's this very anthemic, kind of fiery, dramatic moment, and she goes to the top of the staircase and at the end of this song, there's this really kind

of spooky voice distortion that happens. I kind of wish she did it more on that album, to be honest, but it's a very big note to end on, and Casey at the top of the staircase, looks out to the audience belt the last note of this song and falls back perfectly and then disappears like in Black Fucking Swan. It was. It was literally exactly black Swan. It was. It was such a gag. It was high drag. I was living. I I literally could not have had more

fun at this concert. And to be totally honest, I kind of had lower expectations because this album was not my favorite I did. What did you think of the album star Crossed? Um? It was fine? You know, I enjoyed it. It like it grew on me with time, but it's not something I'm ever like, Oh, I gotta listen to star Crossed. Yeah, I feel the same way. I really like hookup scene and there as a Light.

I think those are stand up, but like, overall, I felt like the whole album need had like a punch up on the production, and I thought that I thought them. The film was also kind of not whack, but just

like not enough. What the Virgins don't know is we watched the first video from that film together and we're like, oh, that was good, And then we watched Chloe Bailey's video for Mercy and we were like, but I guess what I'm trying to get at is the album was extremely powerful to hear in person because Casey did still put so much emotion into it, and also I felt like her lyrics were really championed and her as a songwriter is always going to be strong even if the production

isn't always there. Um. But yeah, anyways, I had a ball. I wish you were there. You know, not much to talk about this week. I mean, like drag Race was kind of fine, the salt Like, I thought the drag Race challenge was funny, but then the twist of the soap opera being about farting. I don't like a fart joke. I no, I don't like a fart joke. Wow, so

you hate fun I don't hate fun I like smarter. No, I think a fart joke is funny the first couple of times, but when it goes on for that long, I guess by the end it did swing background being funny again. I do forget sometimes that Rue has that sense of humor though. Yeah, Ru, Rue like stuff that's very simple, like very bare bones, like fart slapstick humor. And I don't know, I felt like this is a moment where like Rue and whoever is writing this ship

like really thrived, Like I love the challenge. You think Rue wrote the script for the Delta. Yeah? Yeah, Ru Rue in his office with with his quill and his ink. Well, um, yeah, I I'm sure you were extremely mad that no one was eliminated. I think that it's a little bit of ause, but I'm hoping that means next week there will be

a quadruple elimination. Yeah right, Um, I feel like it maybe when it comes down to the math, it was always supposed to happen this way, Like there was always supposed to be an episode where no one was eliminated because there's so many episodes now for these seasons. Um, I feel like it was deserved. I thought everyone killed that runway shockingly. I thought that everyone did had a

passing grade on this sketch itself. Um, But like when it comes down to like I don't know, like overall performance, Like I mean Camden's runway where she fell and revealed this year to completely unexpected, But like why was she kicking so often? Was that a Freddie Mercury thing? Did he kick a lot? I mean he's he was kind of legging? Where is that maybe like her only move? Yeah, I will say the Real House as of Salt Lake

finale was totally underwheling that season is still on. Well, yeah, it's it's it felt like this season has been like a thousand years um. But the most important takeaway from the experience of watching The Real House Lives finale Rose is that the Chichi Trainers we are eaten because in a commercial for The Real House as Assault, like the finale, we have now learned that Megan Trainer is hosting a Peacock original of a kid's version of Top Chef called

Top Chef Family Style. I thought that we're going to say something like Megan Trainer was hosting the reunion all of Nikki hosting Potomac, or like Megan Trainer was joining The House Lives a Salt Lake City, which, like I actually would believe that would totally watch. I would believe that, like she has a house there and that that's the point her career is at. Can you imagine how underwhelming

it would be to watch her host a reunion? Literally any I don't know that I've ever actually heard her speak, so I she probably sounds like Julia Fox. So in the finale, in the like the previous they showed that

Jenny is still the reunion, which I didn't realize. I thought that she was the one who got fired, right, she was the one that got fired and then Mary also left, and I mean Jen is literally going to be in jail by the time that the next season is filmed, which means we'rely we're losing three housewives from this franchise. I think maybe we should just lose the franchise. Um, you wouldn't say that if you actually watched it. It is.

It is definitely a top tier franchise, if not my favorite right now, Like, I think I even enjoyed it more than I enjoyed this last season of Beverly Hills. That's sacrilege. Are you happy to be in Belies? It is so rare that there's something in pop culture that you have experience that I never have. Yeah, Actually, this is a nice little turning of the tables. Um. I for years people have been telling me that I needed to watch Obsessed, and I don't know why I never did.

And I'm honestly shocked that I didn't see it when it came out because two thousand nine, like, what, you know, what was I doing? Yeah? What were you doing? I was graduating. I was doing a lot of drugs action, so that that actually makes a lot of sense. It was, if I remember correctly, like a box office hit. It is,

I think, Um, it's the only film. It's only feature film that Parkwood Productions, which is Beyonce's production company UM produced, other than Cadillac Records and Black Is Gang, which isn't Beyonce. Beyonce Knowles is listed as an executive producer. Well, I

noticed when I watched the movie last night. Yes, today we were talking about Obsessed to the two thousand nine films starring Beyonce Elba, Ali Larder, and we'll get into, you know, the thick of it, maybe a slightly broader conversation about this trope of the murderous scorned woman, a trope that Rose dam You did in fact invent and in herself. Well, if like me, you've never seen the film film Obsessed, um, here's a quick recap. Beyonce is

married to Idris Elba. Her name uh in a in a in a turn that made me feel absolutely psychotic. Her character's name is Sharon, which is just not realistic at all. For someone who looks like Beyonce to be named Sharon. It would just it simply would would never happen. There there's so many things I kept waiting for a twist that like she had a secret identity. Yeah, if if, if there was a supernatural twist, I could suspend my belief. But I draw the line at someone who looks like

Beyonce named Sharon. So Beyonce is married to Idris Elba. She actually used to be his assistant at his law firm, and they have since fallen in love, gotten married, had a child a child who will become important to the plot later. Um and Idris um is you know, working in the city and he there's a new temp but his office, played by Ali Larder of Heroes and legally blonde fame and for at the time, Ali was I'd never heard of her before, but she was kind of

everywhere around she was. She was definitely moving and shaken around this time because because specifically Heroes Um because Heroes was like such a big cultural moment. So Ali Larder starts temping at Idris's law firm and becomes obsessed with him and starts like manufacturing run ins between the two of them, and increasingly like you see Adris be like, oh, this is kind of weird. Should I say something to

my wife? And then he doesn't because he thinks saying something will just like make it into something it's not until eventually it comes out ahead at the company Christmas party, where Ali Larder like throws it back at him the kind in the restroom if you can't see me, Like it's kind of a movement. It's like gazelle like kind

of like white girl dance. That's happening. And so now Adris knows that Ali Larder wants him, but he like again weirdly like doesn't I This was one thing that was so confusing to me was that like he had many chances to say, like go to HR or be like hey, this woman is like harassing me, like she's

attempt get rid of her. And so Ali Larder, it becomes clear like his manufactured this relationship between the two of them and does crazy things like she shows up in his car with only underwear on, she leaves the company because to be with him, because like they can't have a relationship. And then she shows up his business trip drugs him and I forgot that, drugs him and sexually assaults him. Um, I forgot about that. And then when he like really like tells her like you're crazy.

This isn't happening. She o d s in his bed and is taken to the hospital, where like a detective starts an investigation. Beyond well, Sharon finds out about it, Um, and they all like kind of quickly go from like what like what did he do to this girl, like you know, taking it as the way it looks, to like, oh,

I guess she is actually crazy. Because Ali Larder, like after getting out of the hospital and like going with her sister, Um comes to their house one night after Beyonce has forgiven Adris Elba, and they think that she has stolen Beyonce's child because the child is missing, and then it turns out she like put him in a car. So then it all comes to a head when Ali Larder shows up at the house and Beyonce has forgotten to put in the security code, which come on girl.

Actually this morning, coming into the studio, the security alarm went off, and I found myself thinking like if only this had happened in Beyonce's home. Of course, Um, so Beyonce and Ali Larder have a fight to death, which is like the set piece of the film and which I discovered last night upon doing some research. It took them a week to film it, no way, and then

Beyonce gets Ali Larder. In the end, Sharon wins and Ali Larder dies, and then Beyonce and DRI's elbow like hug and make up at the end where Okay, there's never really so that is that is the plot of the movie. Essentially, my let me let me say this. I was obsessed. I think it's the best movie ever made. Okay, amazing. I was going to ask because obviously you and I had the exact same first impression, which was why is her name Sharon? But why is her name? Your second

impression was like what was the second was? This is incredible? I loved it. I had so much fun watching it. But I was also very confused because I wasn't confused by anything that happened. I was confused by like the

way people reacted to things. And I understand that these things needed to happen for the plot of this film, but like, if you take that away, it makes no sense that Drew's elbow wasn't like, um, this woman is like harassing me, she needs to go um, and you do like he even if he didn't cheat with this woman, he had so many options to like do the right thing, tell the truth, be like this is crazy, Um, you need to stop this, tell his wife what was going on?

And so and by the end of the movie, even though they have survived and this woman hasn't gotten what she wanted, which like she didn't get Adris Elba or you know, the baby, Sharon has come out on top. Like how does Beyonce go back to him at the end because he has created a situation in which she had to kill a woman in her own home and be scarred by that forever. So like, how do you, like, how do you go back to like getting fro you

with that person? I like what I don't think that if there was an obsessed to I think it would be about their divorce. Okay, so you're you're I'm picking up on some of the things you're reacting to, And I think that it should be said that this movie did pretty good in the box office, but it was a critical flop obviously, and a lot of things yeah I know, yeah exactly, and a lot of the things

that people were talking about. We're just what you're naming, is that the kind of emotional and relational steaks of these three characters are a bit off, and because it is, you know, so such a kind of carbon copy of movies we've seen before, they were like, well, this is like a lower stakes, moralistic kind of version of well

those films. Yeah. I think like some of the criticism and the little bit of research I did is that at the time, people were like, this is bad because we don't understand why these people are doing the things

that they're doing. Like they never explain why Ali Lard are so obsessed with but other than like he's hot because they never have sex, they even yeah, if this was no, they don't well she I mean she assaults him, right, I mean, if this was like a Hitchcock film, which like there is some kind of like Hitchcock e and thing going on here, you know, we would find out Ali Larter's tragic backstory where she had been like assaulted

as a child or something. That's a very trophy thing with these movies, like you find out why the crazy woman is crazy, um, and in this there's no explanation of it. And something else to me that stuck out was that Idris is never really tempted like his like I mean, besides like he he looks at her legs, you know, when they first meet, he notices that she's hot, Like he thinks she's hot enough to to lie to his wife about it, exactly, asks him like if she

is your new assistant attractive? And he's like, no, is your ugly? Yeah? Yeah exactly, yeah yeah, And so I think that that it's like it kind of renders Idris to be renders all three of them to be like very uncomplicated characters. Like I think the film, and I think, honestly, because it was done by Parkwood Productions and because Beyonce was maybe over this, it would make sense to me that these characters would kind of champion fidelity instead of

like trying to nuance our challenge. Well, because Idris even says once he and Beyonce have reconciled and like they go to dinner on his birthday, he asks her if she wants a divorce and she says, we don't get divorces in my family exact, and that, oh my god, that is such a like a kind of which it's a microcosm of, to be honest, Beyonce culture, like Beyonce is like we all saw Lemonade. We all well there is a direct line from obsessed to lemonate. We've seen

the live performance of resentment in the wedding dress. Okay, we know that fidelity is something that Beyonce champions in kind of almost old school way. Yeah, I mean, well it seems kind of faith based. Yeah, and obviously it has to do with like blackness, that has to do with like ways you grow up religious. Um, but like it has I think to me, it makes total sense that Idris would never not once cheat, you know what I mean. But it also makes it kind of boring,

makes him boring, It makes movie a little boring. Well, there's also this like missed opportunity and like I'm not saying that race should have played a bigger part in this film, but like when Ali Larder is like using the fact that she could get him in trouble by the way that things look, you know, to manipulate him, Like it goes kind of unsaid this dynamic between them that he is a black man and she is a white woman, and it's like it's like they're thrumming under

the surface and you're waiting for the movie to dig into it a little and it just never does. And it feels kind of like, I mean, yes, on the one hand, like it's cool that we're that in two thousand nine we had a movie like this where like their race wasn't a huge part of it, but it also feels kind of weird and like defanged that it's

like never even addressed. Yeah, and obviously this is a conversation for a podcast that is in ours, but like this was before Beyonce was like talking about her race, you know what I mean. But I think that what you're touching on is like the fact that like a lot of people were coming taking away from this being like there were like missed opportunities in how this relationship, especially between Ali and Idris, was like racialized. But I felt like, um, there's a lot, as you're saying, thrumming

under the surface. It really was kind of there because there's a very kind of like scary victimy white girl moment where she kind of like victimizes herself to like protect all the lying and assaulting that she's been doing. And then I think there's even a moment where like Beyonce is like get your skinny us over here something like that. Like there's there's components of like race and like this like really weird power dynamic between the three

of them that creeps through. But yeah, I agree, they're they're completely unexplored. Yeah it doesn't. It like does not lean far enough into being a psycho sexual thriller in the vein of something like a fatal attraction or a basic instinct. Also, Beyonce is just not in the movie enough, Like no, she's she's She's essentially a supporting character. And I guess that makes sense because I'm sure she did like two weeks on this tops and that's probably why

she was attracted to it. But I could have used more Sharon, even though Sharon is a crazy name for Beyonce to have in this um. Even though we're leading with kind of the negative things about it, obviously, the thing that no one can forget is like this kind of final deathmatch between Sharon and Ali. Where's Atris and

all of it. Again, He's driving, he's at work because they're they're about to go on a trip, and Beyonce is leaving the day before him, and she leaves the house, forgets to set the alarm and goes back to set it, and Ali Larter is there and Beyonce has left her a message on her phone previously saying like you know who this is? Yeah, you know I'm gonna beat your assot And then when she shows up the house, she was like, I see you didn't get my message. Yes,

that Beyonce leaving that phone message is the best. Mean. Beyonce has some amazing lines, which when she kicks Atris out and he's like, where am I supposed to go? And she says to hell? But until that, I suggest the fourth season like incredible, incredible, or when she says get out of my house, she screams at get out of my house. She's so good. Yeah, and she her Beyonce is someone who understands line delivery. She has comedic timing.

I think it's like, I mean, if you don't know, like Beyonce was nominated for several Razzies, I think for this film, Like, um, the film was like widely made fun of. I wonder how many Oscar nominees are also Razzi nominees. Oh, I do know that they did win an MTV Intersectionality Yeah the intersection So in intersectionality means you have an MTVM Music Award, but you lost a Razzie and failed to get the nom for an oscar Um.

But yeah, I'm said that. Like I mean, first of all, the Razzies are like kind of an abhorrent thing, sometimes even so widely misogynistic. And also we have to say like this, like when people say this is a critical flop, like a lot of this is around like Rotten Tomatoes culture, and like it's less true now, but at the time Rotten Tomatoes is like percent like white guys, you know what. And also like this, that's not how this movie is remembered.

It's a cult classic. Also, something that people forget about this, I think because I haven't really seen anyone talk about it, is that it's a Christmas movie. No, it's like it was a Christmas movie because kind of a Christmas party. Yeah, that's like the inciting incident between Idris and Ali Larder. Oh my god, I forgot about that way, So why are we doing it? It kind of like the first

third of the movie takes place during Christmas? No way. Wow, honestly, um missed opportunity for a Destiny's Child is a Christmas needle drop. Well, well, you know, the music in the

movie does slap there. It's a very good soundtrack. There's a really good Sam Sparrow song that plays American Boy by a Spell which love Also um so, Idris has a gay assistant and it's like telegraphed very early on that he's gay, and Beyonce has like laid down a decree that he's not allowed to have female assistance because the last time he did it was her and they

wound up married. Okay, if I ever had a husband, I think I would kind of want my husband to have a hot assistant because it would make me very competitive. Would but would you want him to have a hot assistant if you had already been that hot assistant? I mean, because you know that this person is predisposed to, like,

I think it's okay to funk their assistant. I mean yeah, because it would you know, give me the opportunity to, I don't know, drop a chandelier on them or something I'm gonna swing from the Yeah that's actually Beyonce, was she She She asked requested that that music be played in you know, in the early stages of this cat and mouse game between Ali Larder and Aadris Elba, like they do become friendly because of the way that she the ways in which she manipulates him, which is like

by staging this like you know, breakdown in the break room at work where she's crying about a guy and he like comforts her and then they start. I am NG And her screen name is temp Girl, which which definitely to me is like a spiritual sister to Carrie Bradshaw's screen name, which is shoe Gal. Also, Temp Girl sounds like a separate movie that I would watch. Yeah, it's like when me, I'm a temporary girl because I transitioned and then I will eventually wait, what was your

screen name? Have we talked about this? I think we have. But my like original a I AM screen name for a while was well I thought when I when when I made it, I thought it was I am Psycho because I was like a goth. But I spelled it wrong and so it was actually I am Fisco, I am I just choked on my own spit mine mine like miss Jennerman. Mine was frand man one S three

brand man, Oh my god. And then of course it became later became friends Squitch go ahead, but adriss gay Assistant, Like there's a moment where he calls the gay assistant and Ali Larder in to talk to him, and he's like, all right, ladies, let's go. He does, he does, and then Ali Larder at one point calls the gay assistant, you silly old queen. Wait wait, wait a second, we need a whole other movie about this gay assistant, because

that is to me. The gay assistant also like gives Ali Larder a lot of the information she needs to um to trick Adris Elba. The most pressing question I had when watching this movie is has Beyonce ever celebrated Ali Larter's birthday on beyonce dot com. Absolutely not, no way. I'm sure that they got dot com Ali Larder. Beyonce has a very small class of christened white women that she wishes a happy birthday too. It's Reese Witherspoon, it's

I don't know, Adele. Maybe I'm hoping that one year soon Beyonce will do a birthday post for Ali Larder. I thought you were going to say for you, You're gonna me. I don't think that that's never gonna happen. Oh um. Ali Larterer sends Adris Elba a bunch of sexy photos at one point and in them she's wearing a Fedora, not the Fedora Fedora this is two thousand nine. I mean, Jason Mraz was very prevalent during this time, his impact, his Foedor and did you ever own a

Fedora girl? Jason Mraz was not only one of my favorite music artists, but I did own several Fedora's. Have you ever seen Jason Mraz live? Yeah? I did own a Fedora one. Did you really? There's no shame, you know, we we are you know, it's a consequence. There is totally shame. There is absolutely shame. I used to have

a huge crush on Jason Mraz, bisexual king. He to me looks, you know, like frail led us to me um And to answer your question, I've never seen him in concert, but I have seen you know, his female female um woman counterpart Ingrid Michaelson in concert. I was

the first concert I ever went to alone. One thing about this movie is that the phrase sexual harassment is only uttered once, like surprise, it's even once, and that's really like I also thought that was interesting, like in the same way that like the racial element is never acknowledged like the sexual paul tics of this aren't really acknowledged,

which I guess like it's a very pre to movie. Yeah, it is very pre to, and like, you know, I don't know if like talking about sexual harassment would necessarily make the movie more interesting, but it's just it's like weird that it's like it only ever acknowledged once kind of in passing right, and if it was made in this day and age, it would definitely be even if it wasn't explicitly mentioned, it would be the conversation the film.

It also like the movie is just crazy and that it is so completely a male fantasy, like because this doesn't happen. I'm sure, yes, I'm sure there are women who harass men who like our predatory, but systematically, like within the patriarchy, this does not happen, and this instead actually like maybe you can look at this movie as like this is what men tell themselves happens when they are actually really harassing and assaulting, say that, oh my god,

like this is how they rationalize it to themselves. Is like she was crazy, she was coming on to me. There was nothing going on between us. Pylog chandelier, thank god. Yeah, yeah, okay, So speaking of male fantasy, I watched Fatal Attraction last night. I've never seen it. Okay, very excited for you to watch it. I won't, you know, maybe talk about it

in crucial detail. But when that film came out, and obviously these two, like thinking about Obsessed and Fatal Attraction, they're all within this like same genre of a male imagination of a scorned, dangerous like woman, like a woman who is so unhinged and so in love with a

man that she is now like murderous. It's interesting to see how that kind of movie has evolved into things like Gone Girl, where like that trope of the crazy woman has now the come like we're now looking at the woman's point of view, where like these movies like even though we remember about Obsessed, that it's like about Beyonce and Ali Larder, Like really the movie Idris Elba is the protagonist and technically almost the entire movie is from his point of view, but it still feels like

Beyonce's movie kind of even though I guess Ali maybe she's really sidelined, and like even Ali Larder is, and like you don't understand their motivations, like you really only understand like the interiority of why Idris Elba is making

the decisions he's making. And so like now I see like a direct line from that on like the way that culture has changed to things like Gone Girl, where you are understanding these women who in movies like this, like we don't know why they're making the choices they're making and they're just written off as crazy women. And now we're seeing women make bad decisions and like be the villains, but like we're getting the psychology of why

they're doing exactly. It's kind of like, um, okay, I want to get to Gone Girl, or honestly even like something like Ingrid Goes West like or like something which I've also never seen. Uh, okay, we'll talk about it. But like I I feel like it's worth diving a little bit into Fatal Attraction because when you know, Obsessed came out that she gets shot in a bathtub at the end spoiler. If you've seen Bridget Jones's diary, you know what happens in Fatal Attraction? Does does she watch

it and Bridge at the beginning? That's very on the nose. Um I didn't realize that, Okay, so um, yes, she does die in a bathtub in the end that the premise loosely is, you know, a wealthy guy, he has a perfect kid, a perfect wife, similar to obsessed. He decides to do what men do. He cheats on his wife. The inciting incident is that he does cheat and he has this kind of weekend affair with Glenn Close, who is I think attempt at his publishing house. So what

is it with tempts? I want to watch a movie about psycho sexual tempts. Honestly, temps if you're listening, yeah, please let us know if you have ever um, you know, been killed by a chandelier. What if we did what if there was a modern day we should do a modern day adaptation of the Tempest. But it's um like

a workplace drama. Yeah about temps Um anyways, pst because it's on Easter time, right right, So after Michael Douglas has an affair with Glenn Close, Um, it's quick, it's kind of very quickly revealed that she has basically like borderline personality. This Michael Douglas in Fatal Attraction. He's not my type. He looks a little too much like a like a like a sack of flower to me. But I do think that he was a very compelling kind

of anchor for the film. Um. And I think I want to get into the conversation of performances because the balance of performances in these two films is so different. But it's a it's a very specific kind of look. It's not really it's it's been for me me. So basically, Glenn Close gets pregnant. She says, I'm going to have this baby, and he's like, you can't do that, Like, my wife doesn't know about this. I have a whole life outside of you, Like, we can't do this together.

And of course she like stalks and harasses him until um, he and his wife work together to kill her. Um. Literally I wish it. I know. Isn't that so sweet? So romantic? Um? But it's what's amazing about this about that kind of comparing these two is like when I said, oh, it's like Beyonce's film, You're right, she was really sidelined in it. But in Fatal Attraction, it's glenn closest movie. And let me tell you, but does it spend time

with her? You know? It does? It does spend I think it spends more time with Glenn than it does with someone like Beyonce. Obviously there are different rules. Beyonce is the one being cheated on. Glenn is the other woman, so she Glenn is kind of the alley larder but Beyonce, but Glenn is just like to me, out of all six of these kind of actors, like completed the picture and did the most like acting. Well, she's gone close. And what she did was also like Cinema an off

star exactly. I know, Well, that's so funny. She lost the off This was the movie that they thought she was already three Oscar Noms in by the time this movie came out, and she lost this one to share, can you? And this was the one that they thought she was gonna the one she should have one because she was brilliant. But I have to, like, you know,

say that like um yeah, to answer your question. She is not like as maybe she's like a little peripheral, but it doesn't matter because she just sucks the air out of every scene. And but does it does the movie to do the work to make you understand her side of the story only a little bit. Obviously, know the way the movie is written is still Michael Douglas slash Idris Elba is the protagonist. He is the center of the film. It's all about his moral center and

like his kind of thing. The reason Fatal Attraction is ultimately a better movie despite being so abhorrently misogynist, is the fact that like the complexity of him cheating on his wife is really in the film, and like he their ramifications to it. His wife gets really mad, like they kind of like sort through a really weird kind of like psycho sexual like um conversation around what to do about the baby, what to do about cheating whatever, and instead of going to couples therapy, they just team

up to kill the mystery exactly. And but despite the fact that Michael Douglas is an amazing actor, um, the wife whose name escapes me is an amazing actress, and even the child actor let me tell you and aggressively non binary child and this in this film is an amazing child actor, like so so good in this film, despite all of them being amazing actors, Like, the only person anyone was talking about after this, you know, after

thirty years later is Glain Close and she invented this trope. Um. But something that I have to say that was very surprising is that did you notice there's kind of almost like Twilight e Phil alter Over everything. It's like really like weird, like white light, like the cinema. The cinema is like not really there. You know, it's not something you pay attention to in the film. I think you're mistaking a lack of like a filmmaking choice with the

very distinct filmmaking choice that happens in Twilight. Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure, Um, don't conflate those things. Yeah, of course I would never. I would never. Um, I know, I'm we do not send her Twilight on this podcast. No, no no, no, would never, would never. Something that really surprising about Fatal Attraction is that it was gorgeous, Like every frame is so beautiful, um,

and every costume is so beautiful. There's a scene it's kind of mirroring the scene when Ali Larder is in his car in underwear. She shows up in his to his office wearing nothing but this huge black trench coat with like shoulder pads up to her ears, Like she looks so amazing, and like there's another Her apartment is so she it's like all white brick and she has like vintage X her size bike, and like there's a scene where she's like sitting and eating like Chinese takeout.

It's like every frame is like so gorge and her hair is like the like it was during like a perm era kind of because I think the late exactly the late eighties, and that to me, like her hair did so much work on top of what she was doing acting wise. And I think the reason I wanted to talk about it is because the casting of Ali Larder feels like they tried to find someone who what could be villainous but also feel like basic in like

her own kind of whiteness. And so when they went to cast Fatal Attraction, Glen Close was like their last pick. They went through so many different actresses and glen Close was chasing them the third this third, three nominations in Glen Closes chasing these casting directors being like I like this role, I want to do this film, um, And she had to basically like show up to an audition.

Glen Close had to audition in like a little black dress, and she showed up with the PERM and the casting directors, having never seen the perm before, We're like, Glenn, is it she can do sex appeal, and the sex scenes in the movie are really good. By the way, you'll you know, you'll watch it, I mean the the Ali Larder.

I liked what you said about like being villainous but kind of basic, because that very much was the trope of her at the time, because, like I think about legally blonde, she's this like sorority girl who's in prison because they think she murdered her husband. And then on heroes did you ever watch Heroes? No? I didn't. She was a stripper who had a split personality, and her split personality had super strength and would like black out and then wake up and find out that her like

alter ego had killed a bunch of people. Um so that very much like is the kind of role that she was known for playing, Like this kind of like basic looking, pretty blonde girl who actually was you know, a psycho killer. Yeah. And the thing I think maybe one of the reasons that the casting directors were averse to Glen Close is because there's nothing basic about her face.

She's very distinct. She gives a prestige vibe, you know what I mean, Maybe they felt like she was too complex for the role, But um, what Glen Close, you know, said at the time and also has talked about thirty years later, is that she was really attracted to the complexity of this character that they rendered really flat and really misogynistically in the end um in a way that Glen Close was actually against, which I want to talk about.

Remember when we saw Glenn Close, Oh my god, we were We were at the after party for the prom on Broadway. Forgot about that. We were sitting on a table eating. We have to say that it was like Ryan Murphy's party. Every Ryan Murphy muse was there. Yes, um, like Billy Porter, all of the post girls like and Glenn Close, who was standing right behind our table talking

to Sandra Bernhard like the gayest thing ever. And we were chatting and I'm talking to Rose and I say, Rose behind you, like four or five ft behind you, not even like maybe less. Glen Close is talking to Sandraw bird Hard and You're like, oh my god. And you were like take a picture to picture for me.

And we were those girls, we were, but Glen Close is the moment, and um, this I think is like maybe we can get into like the kind of wider conversation of like what this kind of woman means in a film, and how this exact archetype is still so prevalent in every single year we will get a movie with a character like this, you know what I mean, But now we root for them, like you watch Gone Girl and you want amazing Amy to succeed, and like she does ultimately, And you know what's funny, It's like

when I watched Fatal Attraction, I kind of thought, like I bet everyone involved and realize like how dated this would become blah blah, But when I read about it, so Glenn. The original ending of a Fatal Attraction um has Glenn Close slitting her own throat and framing Michael Douglas for which is good and that's why Glenn agreed

to do the film. They filmed this ending, tested it all, audiences hated it because they wanted to kill Glenn Close so bad, like they wanted her to be murdered, and so they were like, we can't do this, we have to reshoot the film. And Glenn Close fought the directors and the entire team for two whole weeks being like, I will not do that ending. This is the ending

that is sympathetic to my character. It's a complete betrayal to the character that I've created to have her pick up a knife, like she wouldn't come at a knife with them, she would kill herself, which I think is so beautiful and so sympathetic. She was so ahead of her time in that regard. And also it's so funny that you say it took them one week to film the Obsessed fight scene, because I just learned that it took three weeks I think to film the fatal Attraction

scene at the end, which is also very good. Is it between Glenn and Michael Douglas. Yes, it's between Glen and Michael Douglas, which is another reason why I think upset. I think it's one of the wings of Obsessed is I think the fight between the two women is more interesting. Absolutely, And also watching Michael Douglas a woman is kind of hard.

It's kind of wild to watch, like the film is would almost earn it if it wasn't so imbued in you know, this completely untouched conversation of mental health that is in Obsessed, that is in Fatal Attraction, Like it's not really like, you know, besides calling her crazy, there's not any attempt to look at why this woman is

doing these things. I mean, how there's no motivation. Yeah, And also like the violence between the two women is like kind of a sign of of like maybe some kind of progression from fatal attraction, because there are so many moments in the film where like a DRIs like you see kind of like a restraint of violence of him, like you know, to like shake Ali Larder, but he's

not going to hit her. Right again, It's like the movie that Obsessed is really it stays closer to it's like moral center in that regard, yeah, because it can't make him outright a villain, even though I still think he is, like obviously like Ali Larder is a villain, but like when you have someone acting in ways that are that evil but like you don't understand why they're doing them, it becomes like a caricature of villainy and

it's just like so kind of like ridiculous. Um. And so I think I think the most evil person in the movie is Idris Elba because he did this to Beyonce by not being honest with her about what was going on, or going to human Resources and being like, hey, this temp is sexually harassing me, Like you need to get her out of here. Okay, so this is like

a segue into Guests. How like we consume these movies now, because when I watched Obsessed, I remember thinking kind of the same thing, being like, this is Atris fault and the movie maybe wants you to kind of want to kill Ali Larder. When I watched Fatal Attraction, obviously, what Michael Douglas is does is so much more abhorrent than what Hedris does. He openly cheats many many times, lies a ton. Glen Close is constantly calling his home phone

and like hanging up and stuff. So he moves his entire family upstate without telling them that the reason why, which is wild And so anyways, when I was watching the film, I was like, obviously, Michael Douglas is like the worst person here, but the film wants you to think that Glenn Close is the worst person here here. But in the conversation of Gone Girl and movies like it, the movie is saying that Rosamond Pike is the girl you're rooting for, kind of or the the anti heroes

to speak. Yeah, she's still the villain, but it wants you to understand why she's making the choices she's making and the power of her making herself the victim and turning her husband into the villain, um into like the weird guy smiling on TV when his wife has gone missing. Um, and you know, like it sets the people who would normally in these stories be the heroes, like you know, the husband, like the man who rescues her Neil Patrick Harris. Oh,

I forgot about that. Into the villains best work to be I think so too, And I very much enjoyed watching him get his throats. Yeah, honestly, you know, it's so funny, is um. Now I'm thinking about the husband archetype and how fatal attraction and Gone Girl. Like the husband, this guy is really this kind of sympathetic but ultimately uh snivelly, kind of maybe loser, where Idris is kind of something of a prince charming, you know what I mean,

which again makes me less you know, interesting. Um, But I actually haven't seen Gone Girl, And because I would, like a moment and obsessed of you thinking Idris might have sex with Ali Larder. Yeah, but that's the other thing is like this man who is smart enough to like not cheat, but he's not smart enough to tell his wife like it just didn't make sense. No one's decision a movie makes sense except for a Beyonce. And even then, I'm like, why is she deciding to take

this woman on herself? Because like when she goes back to the house, like she gets inside and understands Ali Larder is there and goes to confront her, and that's why they have this death match. It feels to me like something of a mama their um steaks because has touched her child exactly. A reboot is being made a fatal attraction. It was like canceled multiple times, but apparently Lizzie Kaplan is going to be when I love Lizzie

and I also love Lizzie Kaplin. But my question to you is, you know, in the idea of reboots, not that we're a huge fan of reboots in general, if we were to do a kind of scorned murderous woman movie, now, what would that What do you think that would look like? You are a scorned murderous woman, Rose, if you had

to kill a man, what would you do? Rose? You? Okay, the virgins can't see, but Rose kind of has like a facial expression that's like, what do you mean if um, I guess like I need to think about where we are culturally and like how we would update it for today. What if it was like um ugly Betty esque like magazine kind of thing, because well, I can't remember what Idris does. He's a lawyer. He's a lawyer, Okay, in Fail Attractions publishing house. Okay. So this girl, So the

girl in this movie, Um, it's a podcaster. Does she run a podcast with a nonminory Mexican? Yeah, she's no, she has a she's on a podcast with like a couple other you know, she's a millennial. She's a millennial podcaster. And she meets this guy on Tinder and they start hooking up, and she finds out that he is in

a relationship with a man. He's bisexual. He's bisexual, but like he says he's gay because he is has like internalized biphobio, right, he doesn't really even probably understand his own desire, and like he's in an open relationship, so he like could have sex, but it's like his own self hatred that keeps him from being honest about the fact that he is having sex with them, like maybe falling in love with this woman. And so she is like gas lit into thinking that, you know, he's cheating

on her. She doesn't even know he's married to a man. She thinks he's married to a woman. And then she finds out he's married to a man, and she's like, you're a gag and he's like, he's like, yeah, I don't know what I'm figuring. Yeah, He's like, I don't know. And then but then he has kind of a come to Jesus moment where he reckons with his own bisexuality and he's like, Okay, so like this has let me

accept that I am bisexual. But I think, like, bearing in mind everything that's gone on, like we should just like you know, we're we're not gonna be together anymore. Right. At the midpoint of the film, he watches season eight of Are You the One, and he's like, I finally understand my own attraction. Okay, so wait, if if I'm the kind of if we're trying to root for the woman in this the other woman quote unquote in this scenario, but she always dies in the film in this like

modern remake, would she die? Or who who dies? In? How so? She kills the husband of the guy because she thinks that he has like tricked her man into being gay because she's like, you're not bisexual. Bisexuality isn't real, So like the biphobia transfers from him to her. Oh yeah, the film is ultimately about biphobia. And she goes, she goes on a rampage. Um, she kills the husband, she

kills um, I don't know, like her doorman building. And then they ultimately have a showdown at an abandoned gay bar, shut down because of gentrification. Um, and it's where he used to cruise, and she has she injects herself with testosterone because she's like, if you can only love a man, I'm going to I'm going to transition. And he's like, no, it's not that I don't love you because you're not a man. I'm bisexual. I don't love you because you're

a psycho and you killed my husband. And she's like that no, and so she overdoses on testosterone and right as she dies, the police come in and like, she has made it look like this man killed her. You that okay, I think the virgins at home would think that is so far fetched. But actually thinking about these movies in the eighties and also this like early movie, Like that is so something that would happen, you know what I mean, Like that is a kind of level

of absurdity that would happen in this day and age. Um, if they wanted to render this character completely. Um wow, I think that's a great idea for a movie. So anyone out there is listening, if you want to if if you want to make it, I will write a treatment. Listen. Oh my god. Also, your talking of bisexuality reminded me that, Um I was reading that. Um another reason that people were so like engaged in like psycho sexual thrillers in the eighties because like there was just I guess an

onside of them. I think basic Instinct was around that time. UM, a few others like maybe early nineties okay, Um, but apparently they were kind of capitalizing off of, um, fear of like aids, because like infidelity, like a fear of infidelity kind of brought AIDS into the conversation, meaning like if you cheat on me, you could give me AIDS. Isn't that crazy? Yeah? But it's also interesting that it like it's only kind of refracted through the lens of

straight culture. But there also were a bunch of Um, you know, like these kind of sexual thrillers about trans women. UM, Like there's one called I think it's Dressed to Kill. Um. Yeah, it's a film so like maybe a little early for the for the AIDS epidemic, I remember, but it's um, it's in it. Michael Caine plays across dressing murderer. I remember this and so like, and that's also in kind

of Silence of the Lambs a few others. Um, and yeah, it's it's just very interesting like that we have yet to have a queer version of what this dynamic is because I think so much of the drama in these movies hinges on, like the trope of the hysterical woman and like that can only be applied to her being in love with a man. Although I guess Basic Instinct subverts that because I believe Sharon Stone's character in it is bisexual. Oh really, Oh my gosh, I have to

watch Basic Instinct. Phoebe was producer. Phoebe was Sharon Stone and Basic Instinct for Halloween. That's incredible. How when my thriller gets made, which, what's it going to be? Called? Dressed to Kill? That's probably that's the movie I was just about. It could be a reboot. No, it has to be something like there has to be some kind

of bisexual thing. Oh um, well, obviously the key r of the film is going to be like red and blue and they meet in the mirdle in the middle to create a kind of purple tone, so it looks like the bisexual flag. Um, it's gonna be called like, it's gonna be called atomic blonde. It's going to be called like greedy or something. You know. That's the thing about bisexual people, that's we're greedy. That's good. That's very good. Okay, okay, Um,

how am I glutton for punishment? That's what we'll call it, glutton for punishment? I think. Um, you know it's funny that oh no, oh, and the girl by the way, the whole thing that happens at the end where she like does the testosterone and frames him for her murder, it's all being broadcast live on her podcast. Oh that is a good. Final twist is that everyone knows, you know,

we're being kind of funny. But I'm I am genuinely interested in a gone girl like movie that kind of um inhabits the perspective of the kind of quote unquote other woman. I think that when I first started to when I win into a movie like Fatal Attraction, I was kind of prepared to hate it and prepared to, um really find it to be problematic or and or dated. But I thought it was an exceptional film that had like one fatal flaw of like not really kind of

rooting or complicating the woman. Glenn Close filled in so many blanks in the script to kind of render a more complex kind of antihero um even though it's not framed that way in the film. And so I think that nowadays, like I would love to see any iteration of this kind of like woman who has kind of had it. Yeah, And I guess, and I guess that's why Obsessed like ultimately isn't a very good movie, even though it's an amazing movie, is because like it's not

really concerned with making these real people. It's only concerned and like building building a story that leads to Beyonce killing a woman chandelier which is worth it? Which the chandelier I'm going to swing from the chandelier from the

chandelier exactly exactly. Well. My one request is if anyone wants to commission us to write this film, which we would button for punishment, we will have to do a referential image of you know, this lead wearing the leather trench coat with tower high shoulder pads and a curly perm.

And also one thing I forgot is that at the end when Ali Larder dies, so like Beyonce has tricked her into falling through the floor in their attic and then she's like hanging on and Beyonce is like, Okay, I'm gonna I don't want you to actually die, so like take my hand, I'll save you, and Ali Larder takes her arm and then tries to pull her down with her to kill them both. It's like it's it's like like I said, it's like a caricature of evil, but so it's so fun and they both sell it

so well. Yeah, I wonder is wearing heels throughout this whole thing? Is Yeah, I forgot about that she's wearing heels. Oh my god, that is conique. And I did see. I did read that Beyonce had never done like fight corea before, but because of her dance background, like she came to it very naturally. Oh, I had no idea. Well, she yeah, it makes complete sense. She's such a she

can perform literally anything. Um. I want to also, just so that you know there's no erasure on this podcast, we have to say that Obsessed belongs to you know, um eons of people dying by chandelier among them, you know, Phantom of the No One, No one dies, but intent intent to murder Startust does happen in start Us there is a moment with a chandelier, but no, Harry Potter, there's a chandelier thing. Someone just drops a chandelier on someone.

I'm gonna oh no, actually no, Michelle Michelle Phifer does die because of the chandelier in Stardust. That's an excellent movie, by the way, and like Michelle Phifer, Yeah, I love Stardust. Has Michelle Pfeiffer been in one of these movies? You know? What's so funny is because she seems like the type. The second gland Close walked on the screen, I immediately

saw Michelle Phifer in Batman. Well, yeah, I mean I think actually Michelle Phifer's plotline in Batman like, at least the Christopher walking part of her Catwoman journey like, does feel kind of lifted from one of these kinds of movies. It definitely does. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well Meal, We'll be back next week with the discussion on Anime with J. P. Brammer. We're gonna talk about Excited Pokemon, Sailor Move and Neon Genesis, Evangelion,

all of those things. In the meantime, you can catch up on a few of those shows, or also you can let us know what you thought about this week's episode on Twitter, Instagram. Show us your favorite frame of Fatal Attraction, tell us so what was your favorite line from Obsessed? How would to Hell? But until then, I

suggest the fourth season. You can tell us what to talk about next, whether it's a show, a book, a cultural phenomenon we want to hear from you Call to confess at three to three Pennance that's three to three seven, three six two six to three. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. You can leave us a rating on Spotify. I'm your co host fran Toronto. You can find me at France Squish co wherever on social media and sub stack as well. And I'm rost damn You.

You can find me on Instagram, Twitter and TikTok at Rose dam you can subscribe to like a version anywhere you listen Like a Virgin is an I Heart Radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Inter, the one and Only, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Just Cranechitch and Nikki Etour until next week, See you later, Virgins. I'm gonna swing from the Shandelie here, from the shandel here. So canceled now we we can't do this. Two