Cultural Appropriation is Good Again

this year it really really dragged. You know, as someone who claims to be a Halloween queen, as this is your favorite holiday, I believe I never said that. I definitely think you've said that before. And I'm a spooky girl. I'm not in a necessarily the Halloween devotee. All that is to say, you're being a real Halloween grinch right now. You are just Mount Crumpet. Well, actually, what's the mountain

in nightming Ri Christmas? That's like the mountain I don't think it has a name, just like the curly curly mountain, little little hill. No, obviously I love Halloween. It just I have to say I was very unimpressed by the celebrity Halloween costumes this year, and the person who won Halloween in my opinion was Addison Raye. Addison ray doing her Lady Gaga Paparazzi VMA's look like I was gagged. I do kind of unfortunately agree that was a winner costume.

But all that is to say, Halloween is over now and we are entering the holidays. You did you did? You just like flip a switch and now, like Mariah Carry, Christmas is playing or maybe probably Kelly Clarkson knowing you you do? You know me? Well? I like first thing tomorrow I will be listening to Kelly Clarkson's Christmas out them. Although you know what, maybe I should take some learnings from Halloween and pace myself. But it's fine because I'm

going to be very busy over the next couple of weeks. Anyway. I am about to start moving back to New York. I um have a new apartment here. I'm flying back to l A tomorrow to start packing up my stuff, and I'll be back here in a couple of weeks. So I'm just gonna let the chips fall where they may when it comes to holiday stuff. Although I will be getting a Christmas tree this year a big old

Christmas tree. Okay, yes, we um we you know, we've been out and about, We've had COVID, we've had depressive episodes, and we realized that there's tons on our backlog of what we've been watching, reading, listening to and uh, we decided to devote all of today's episode to the hot topics of the last month. Where do we even start?

This is the like of Virgin October ending summit. Um, there has been a lot going on in culture and we friend, you and I have not even seen each other this month except for once to record an episode um that will be coming next week on Indie Sleeves, so you all should be very excited about that. And then there was the time that you brought me soup when I was sick, but I only talked to you through the door each other. Now is finally the time to come together talk about the things that all the

girlies are talking about. I think I would say top of my list is we now have both seen Tar, and Tar is the name on everybody's lips. It really is like and it feels like it's going to be an ongoing conversation as we enter Awards season. But damn, this movie was good. Rose, Like you primed me. Obviously everyone has primed me, but this was like such an incredible movie. And you know, it was two and a half hours long. I did not pee once. I did not have to pe. I was enthralled the whole time.

I never felt antsy, it did not feel overly long. I was enthralled throughout the entirety of it. I want to see it again, you know. I didn't want to lead with the negative, but I actually will just I'm gonna, yeah, but I will, and I'm gonna get it out of the way because it's on what you just mentioned. You know, the length, to me is a hundred percent earned. But I did walk out of this film feeling like there were many parts that were undeniably boring because of the

length of the cuts. I believe the longest scene in this movie without a cut is like ten or eleven minutes. It's like it's that, um, the scene in the lecture hall, no spoilers, that's so incredible, incredible scene. Um. And I think when I walked out, I was kind of like this movie was like kind of up its own ass and like it was like, you know, way too long and like these are the I like kind of walked out of it feeling like I didn't love the movie,

and I also don't like the ending. But as I sat with it and digested it, um, I think twenty four hours later, I was like, wait, Like the mundaneity that I was feeling watching some of these scenes was actually part of the brilliance because, for example, I guess, like I can spoil this the first we were spoiling we need everyone, Okay, okay, well it's Phoebe's like, I'm

going to mute you. I don't want it spoiled. Um. But at the end of the day, the thing that makes this movie brilliant is that it is a perfect and very truthful character study. And Lydia Tar is so lived in and such a real character that she actually by the end of the movie, You're like, this is a real woman. This is a real woman. In two and I'm going to go, like, consume more Lydiatar. Um. Yeah, Like I truly believe that she exists in the world. Like I would go to Spotify and type in lydiatar

expecting to find her entire discography. I'm really surprised you didn't like the ending because I loved the ending. I walked out of the theater cackling because the ending was just so abrupt and hilarious and perfect. Okay, well, I mean I have nuanced thoughts on it. But the first four minutes of the movie is Lydiatar literally at a New Yorker talk with Adam Gottnick, which is hilarious. And um, it's just him listing off every single one of her

credits and the camera is not moving. Okay, the credits are being listed. I am sitting watching this at bam okay, so like it almost feels like I'm at the New Yorker talk and and and I would get bored at a New Yorker talk. And in the first four minutes of the movie, I found myself being like, wait, how long is this gonna go? Like wait, really like this

is like such a lot. I just felt confused. But as you realize what the stylings of the movie are and how it's it's really trying to create a hyper realism that is so pulled off by the brilliance of Cape Blanchet, I think that truthfulness and that realness is what ended up making me like the movie a lot more. Um, But okay, let's talk about the ending. If we're going to talk about the ending, I thought that that truthfulness presented a very complex villain slash bully like she she's

basically like a lesbian douchebag, right. Yeah. I love that she refers to herself as a U haul lesbian and the first twenty minutes of the movie she is a genius, you hauled lesbian And at no point do you doubt that she's a genius. Like that I think is something

that's very well portrayed. And so when you see the kind of ways that she is abusive, manipulative, not in the right mind taking advantage of like her cloud and power, Like she's a woman who is obsessed with power, you as an audience member might find yourself for giving her because she is so brilliant. Um. And I think that what I loved about the entirety of her kind of cancelation, because this character is essentially canceled for we still find

out she she too. Um. When you walk away from the movie, depending on who you are, you're going to have a very different assessment of whether you think Lydia tar got what she deserved or not right. And the reason I didn't like the ending is because I felt that it had an opinion on the fate of Lydia Tar and I didn't. And what do you think that

opinion is? I felt the opinion was that she got what she deserved, and I was kind of like, I mean, yes, sure, but I also was kind of like the whole movie was presenting the truth and then all of a sudden, I got this kind of very ham fisted like and then she's got this chicken shit gig at the end, you know what I mean, Like, and I was like, I don't know about this, and I also like didn't like that it was like a like a sci fi like immersive experience and like him, So that was so

perfect though, because it shows how far she's fallen. And I do still think it is. I like what you're saying about how the movie tries to provide this objective truth about her life and about what happens. And I do think that happens at the ending. I think maybe what it does more than provide a judgment, is it kind of tricks you a little bit because it shows that even though this woman has lost everything and is

that her rock bottom. She still is so full of herself and still so believes her own mythology that she's treating this chicken ship gig like she is still you know, doing the best work of her life. And it's only that one second at the ending when you realize how far she's fallen. And I just fucking loved that. Yeah, I didn't know. The thing is like part of me was rooting for Lydia. I was like, maybe part of me was rooting for Lydia a little bit. How fucked

up is that? But I think even though she drove a woman to suicide, oh my god. Um, but that's the thing. It does make you root for Lydia like it is her movie, it's you. And that is I think why it's so masterful is you know from the beginning that this is a bad person, and yet you are still right there with her throughout the whole movie,

and it you know, we there. There is this whole genre today of you know, like the good for her movie, the you know, women doing bad things, complicated female characters, and this I definitely think is part of the you know, the canon of that. But it it complicates it because this is not a woman doing a bad thing too, people who deserve it. It's just a woman doing bad things, and yet we still love her. And I think, like, I think that's probably part of the reason why she

was queer. Like, obviously her queerness is a function of the way that she's been able to enact harm. But I think introducing her as a lesbian so early in the film, like you know, a coastal elite liberal audience is like, yes, oh my god, like a movie about a lesbian. We love her. And then like she's fucking

Harvey Weinstein. Yeah, the well, she's not Harvey Weinstein, right, not Harvey Weinstein, but she she is someone who had us, who's had a lifetime of like manipulative behavior and then one infraction that we've seen that is absolutely damning, right, And I think that that is like kind of what I'm getting at is that, um, I would have I wish that there was an ending that was like more complicated, right where she maybe had a victory and also a

failure or something. Honestly, because I liked the movie so much and I felt so not okay about the ending. I'm just being kind of esoteric and fanny about what I wanted to see about the film, but like, I think that's something okay. I wanted to see her strap because you know, a better a longer sex scene would have been nice. I will say, virgins. If you're going to go see this movie, I would advocate for you

to one note that it is really funny. Like the audience at BAM wanted this to be, you know, a fucking serious movie, and no one would laugh at the jokes. There was one other faggot on the other end of the theater that was like laughing at like you know e good or like hello, I am Petra's father. I was like, genius, Like there's so many lives. Was such

an incredible scene, incredible scene. Um, but I don't know. Um. The only other part that I didn't like, Literally, the only other thing that I didn't like about the movie was this lecture hall scene where her student says, as a BIPOC pan gender. I was like, girl, like, the whole movie is so real. This you don't you don't

think that's real. There's no one in their right mind who would say as a BIPOC pan gender because it is one like no person of color says like bipoc like that outside of like a like corporate setting in my opinion, And also it's an incorrect use of the word pan gender because pan gender is like they nownified it.

So I was just like, because the script was so real and they were such real characters, that was a moment where I was like, there's a very easy way to paint a character that like doesn't really know what they're talking about in a space of social justice, but bipack pan gender just felt like. That was another moment where I was like, this script has an opinion on this person. I get that the language is clunky, but

that scene felt incredibly real. The scene is incredible. If the scene is incredible, and even with the sort of clunkiness of the language, that just felt very truthful to me. I agree the of the way that some people do weaponize their marginalized identity. Oh yeah, like, oh yeah, everything about I have to clarify. Everything about the scene worked for me, with the exception of that line, like, I really like the movie is a ten of ten for me, and my notes are on the ending and that one line.

Really I also was thinking a lot about how there's that movie she said coming out that's like literally about Harvey Weinstein and the way that the story was broken, and it stars Carrie Mulligan, and it just looks so like it's such an I roll, like it's going to be very um that movie that came out a couple of years ago that was about Megan Kelly um and it just made me think of where now this award season going to have these two films that are both

dealing with the idea of me too and like cancel culture. And one of them tar did it in this very artful way that was very much a character story, and the other one is going to do it in this very obvious way that is very you know, like sensationalist. And I will just always want the art. I will

always want the character. And I think this deep portrait of this very flawed, abusive woman is so much more illustrative of what's wrong in our culture than I think this Like, I mean, obviously I haven't seen it, but this bombastic, like you know, ripped from the headlines like self righteous movie could ever be right because those movies have like a kind of right and wrong dichotomy, with like clear lines on who the film is rooting for.

And I just think that there should be more movies like Tar that are not trying to force you to root for a specific side. And I went like, as I said at the beginning, I walked out of this film and I didn't love how I felt, and I part of what I was processing was I thought that the movie was very muddled in what it was trying to say. I was like, I don't really get what it's trying to say about cancel culture. And because cancel culture is such a hot button issue, of course, I

was like trying so hard to examine it. And then a day later I was like, oh, no, no, like it's not trying to say anything like it's that is why it's so good, Like it actually is is presenting to you a situation and letting you decide how you feel about it. Um And I think that more films should do that, especially with something like cancel culture that is so flattened in every other area of our lives that we consume it. Yeah, and told this story and

was still a beautiful movie. Yes. I loved how bleak and colorless it was. It was so berlin. It reminded me a lot of Suspiria, which I just did my annual rewatch of I do think they exist in the same cinematic universe. Um, the music was incredible, Like as someone who sometimes dabbles a little bit in in classical music, like I just I really appreciated it. Um and lyditar.

I hope she's on my Spotify wrapped this year. Speaking of music, I finally listened to an album today that you had told me that you've been listening to and really loved, which was Willows new album, And I know you were excited to talk about it, Um, and I really enjoyed it. Let me tell you, I enjoyed the New Willow album more than Carly Ray and Taylor combines.

Like obviously they're presenting very different things and shouldn't be compared, but like I'm just saying, that's how much I loved this album because Taylor and Carly like are my queens. This is essentially I don't know how you would describe it risk, but I would. I would call it a kind of like punk maybe like emo metal revivalist album. It has all of those elements that also at times is a little bit industrial. There's some new wave influence

on it, but she's still all those things. But she still has really sweet, really um like smooth at times, r and b at times, pop vocals that elevated and pay homage to her references like you know, the paramours and the machinery Avril Levine's you know to me, like I remember when we first talked about the Olivial old Rigo album, you know, a year ago, I said that my favorite songs were the songs like Brutal and good for You that went all the way in the Avril

Levine territory and committed to it, and that I wish the rest of the album was like that. To me, this album did what I esoteric Lee wanted Olivia Rodrigo to do and loved Demi Lovado for like giving homage to that moment or like other people that have been trying to do like the kind of punk revival thing, but this was it for me. It is so pretty well because I think Willow goes even further than you know, the people that were referencing as sort of the punk revival,

Like she's not even really referencing Avril Levine. She's referencing the people that Avril Levine and Paramore were referencing. She's going she's going directly to the source. She's drinking straight from the top. This is punk filtered through pop in a real way, and not this sort of like double re blog that we're seeing a lot of the girlies

doing nowadays. That's such a good point. And also, like on top of that, I do believe Willow has been dabbling and making punk music for a while, like I think she's she's released like punk tracks before, maybe even Olivia Rodrigo did, But this is her first like album dedicated to a genre of music that she clearly has so much respect for. And I think that it was

the respect that I that I heard. I heard like so much love and adoration for a genre that to me hasn't been around for a while, you know, and it's it's so well crafted. The production is really amazing. I love the way that her vocals are layered and distorted, and just the like wall of sound that exists on

a lot of the songs UM. Some of the standouts for me were Split, which was probably my favorite song on the album, UM perfectly not Close to Me, which has Eve's tumor on it um, which was great, and that was a little technoi, a little housey. Yeah, it's a little it's a little industrial, which I love. Um and then hover like a goddess. Great. So it did also remind me um of Halsey's album that she put out last year, which was one of my favorites. Um, If I can't If I can't have Love, I Want Power,

which I really enjoyed. Yeah. I've been really surprised by Willow you know so much over the past couple of years. I think she's making really good music, working with the right people, you know, has the right references, has this prolific output of music, and I think it's really cool that she can be an artist who has a song go viral in the way that Meet Me at Our Spot did, and like be at the forefront of culture

in that way. But like still like really double down on making the kind of music that she wants to make exactly. And like I also, as someone who's been listening to Willow for a while, I think this is her first like no Skips album, like uh they or rather for me like I thought it was no Skips. I loved all of the tracks that you did. I

also loved Curious Slash Furious. I love the last song bat shit, Like it reminded me a little bit obviously completely different, but like it did remind me of Sleigh Bells too, in that the balance of metal with like really sweet vocal vocals and really gorgeous distortion championing you know, a woman's voice on the track, and I just like want more like this. I'm just I really like that we're hearing artists like Willow and even Taylor on Midnight's

emote in their music. Like that's one of the things that I love about, you know, rock and punk music is you know, when the sound becomes a scream, and Willow really wails on some of these songs, and those are some of the parts of Midnights that I liked the most, is when you could hear the pain and Taylor's voice, like on what have could have should have said,

give me back my girlhood? It was mine first. That's really effective in music when you can hear the emotion rather than just you know, having to parse it yourself from a lyric, the emotional cual. I thought Willow did that so well. It brings it all the way home, and I honestly feel like it's not getting it's do like everyone should be listening to and talking about this fucking album. It's so good. Um, maybe an album that

does not have as much of an emotional quality. Did you did you listen to the new Carle Raight album by chance? I did. I've listened to it once, kind of in the background while I was reading. I haven't given it a closer listen. It's you know, Carly is kind of still making the same music. I could recognize that there were a couple of songs that I listened to that I liked more than others, But it just

I just didn't feel moved to listen again. And I'm sure it will be something that is on the rotation of things that I put on in the background, But and you know, not not to start with the negatives. And like, I love Carly, I love emotion. I even really like a lot of dedicated but Carly just kind of makes the same song over and over again. Yeah,

I'm I'm feeling the repetitiveness too. And the thing about emotion, and part of the reason it was so sublime was because before that moment, Carly was just the call me maybe girl right, she was making trash music, well trash according to some music that felt like Disney Channel esque, right, and then she was like, let me tap all of these exquisite producers, all these producers that I admire, and

see what they can do with my sound. And as a songwriter, I think that's like an incredible thing for her to do. And so Emotion felt like such a triumph because it was such an elevation of what Carly was able to give. And these other two albums feel like kind of like Midnights as well. Uh, the B sides of the B sides right like, these were like Sea sides to me, and like Carly and Taylor share

the proliferation component, right Like. I think she wrote like two songs for emotion, like she kind of always she is very Dolly esque, um, and I think that that can be a wonderful thing. But also part of the weakness here is that there's too much material and not enough focus on defining what exactly these songs want to say. And I I just I want her to give me

what I want. I love the Rufus Waynewright song though, But the thing is, I don't even really know what I want from Carly because I think the problem is that at the end of the day, I do want more emotion, and she keeps trying to replicate it, so like, in a way, she's giving me what I want. It's just not really working because I already got the best

of it. My theory, my theory on that, honestly, is like, so Carly does have a really emotional quality to her voice, yes, but she her voice is still very thin, right, She's not a vocalist. She can't do what a tailor can do or what a willow can do. I mean those I'm only mentioned this because they're the last two people that we talked about. They're not really in any sort of category, but just because they're the conversations of what we're talking about. I'm just like, her voice is just thin.

It doesn't have that magnanimousness. And when you if you ever see her perform on stage, she just kind of like jumps around and it's like, cool, we love you. But like I was like, you know what, I like, listen to this album and I was like, you know what it is, Carly doesn't have a personality, and she doesn't have a personality or an aesthetic or anything. And because we there, we don't have the complete package of

who she is. As a pop star. We as audiences aren't able to place her, aren't able to place her or and we're not able to plant meaning, more meaning, and more personableness and relatableness into her music because we don't really know that much about her. Um And I don't know that's not really that's kind of I feel kind of mean saying that, But I do feel like

it's a management issue. Like you and I don't remember where we were, but like we were like in an uber or something, and you were like, if you could manage like one, you know, one person, and if you could creative direct one celebrity, someone who really needs to get it together. I mean, Carle maybe would be that girl,

because she makes really good music. And I just don't think that she showed us a point of view behind this kind of like I'm an awkward, lonely, little weird girl and I fall in love sometimes too, and I'm like, Okay, Even Emotion, which is one of the best pop albums of this millennium, has no aesthetic, has no good music videos. The album cover is stupid. It just happens to have

incredible music on it, hedible music. UM So I want the world I want her to world build, and I hope that the next you know, album cycle is that for her. Let's talk about interview with the Vampire. UM. Did you watch this week's episode? I actually didn't finish. UM. I want to hear what you think so far, and then I'll kind of go into how I was digesting this last episode. I love it. It's my favorite show

on TV. And now the House of the Dragon is over. Um. Next week is the season finale, and I like, literally don't know what I'm gonna do with my life without it.

I just keep being impressed with the way it is adapting the source material and the choices it's making, and how it is reinterpreting the original story and preserving the things that work and changing the things that don't and re contextualizing things like I as hard as it is to watch, I think giving Lestat and Louise relationship the proper context of a truly abusive relationship works really well because it's not something that's ever been explored with this

kind of depth before, and it is hard to watch it, you know, Like this week's episode was really hard to watch Louis go back to his abuser, but it felt very It felt very real to me, and it's something that has like long gone unsaid in the way that their relationship has been talked about, Like, yes, people always say that they're toxic, but it's abusive, and it it does I think what fantasy should do, which is like take a real life dynamic and exaggerated through the lens

of fiction, because if you had an abusive partner who had superpowers, this shows us what might happen in the circumstances. I also really love this depiction of Claudia and I Claudia has always been my favorite character and interview with the vampire Um, and I think the choice to make her a teenager is so interesting because yes, there is so much tragedy in Claudia being a woman trapped in

a child's body, and that is tragic. But I think making her a teenager so she knows she's missing out on she is on the cusp of womanhood, she can have those experiences and be even further away from them is so it is such an emotional gut punch, and it doesn't I'm not saying it's better than the original, but it's and it's incredibly satisfying in its you know, um like devastation, UM take on that character and just

it makes sense. This reboot makes sense, like there is a reason to be retelling the story in a new way. And that's what I love so much about this version of it is that it truly is adapting and updating and playing with the source material in a way that makes it more relevant to the time that it's speaking to and the time that it's being consumed in. The reboot really does justify itself, like this material needed further

exploration and adapting. And I also much prefer the way this Claudia is written, um as much as I love Kiki uh I, I think for me, what I realized UM watching this most recent half of this most recent episode was that, um My, the fact that I don't have an attachment to the source material is part of the reason I am falling off a little bit. And I think that if I was invested from square one in the original story, which I don't really know anything about.

I did not google the full plot of the o G interview with the Vampire, right like I didn't read the full plot Summer. I only know the basics, so I don't know as much about what's been changed and what hasn't. So you describing that like and placings like some of these things that have been changed, actually makes

me appreciate it even more. I think that just the bones of the plot art not mighty like and I and that's not, you know, the moved that the show's fault, right, Like, I don't think fatherhood is an interesting theme in anything, Like I don't want to watch things about fatherhood. I don't want to watch things really about children. I think this Claudia, as you said, is amazing, and I do like the teen The teendom of her is is definitely compelling,

and this actress is really compelling. Um but I Listat is so irredeemably abusive. I I just wish that he was. I wish there was a little more subtlety on him and a little less subtlety on Louis, because Louis to me a lot I feel like a lot of time, not all the time, obviously, but a lot of times things are just happening to him, Like I wish that he made more choices in the show instead of being so beholden to List's ongoing abuse manipulation twists and turns,

and with LISTA. I wish that he I'm I'm okay with all of the things that you know, all the way all the ways that he's abusing Louis, Like, yes, that's like a real person. But I just like wish that there was a little more restraint on how insidious and how a moral he is, Like I wanted, I want redemption from him beyond how hot he is. And for me, the only thing that redeems him is how hot and romantic he is, and I don't know that and that would be enough for me if there was

more subtlety to his character. You know, I see what you're saying. I think it's interesting that you say that Louis doesn't make choices when I actually think he makes a lot of choices. No, I said he makes he doesn't make as many choices as I would like. I didn't say he makes zero choices. Yeah, because I do think Louis is a character who's driven by the choices

he makes. I mean, his choice not to drink human blood is what defines him and is the big, the huge schism um in his relationship with Lestat and even with Claudia Um and then with the Listat of it all, I get what you're saying, I actually don't. I actually prefer him as a character who can't be redeemed because you know what this season is all building towards and like the spoiler alert, but like this isn't a spoiler um.

You know, in the finale, um is leading to Claudia's attempt to kill Lestat, And I actually think the way that Lestat is being depicted and his abuse of louis so much more gives gives such a clearer reasoning for Claudia to want to kill him, because in the novel and in film, you know, were led to understand that Claudie wants to kill him because Lestat is a liar and because he won't tell them about the you know, their origins and other vampires, and because he kind of

sees them as his playthings rather than they truly need to escape him and he won't allow them to. I mean, there's this devastating scene at the end of the most recent episode that I guess you didn't see, where Claudia is trying to know She's like going off on her own to get away, and Lestat tracks her down and says, like you can't have your own life because I need

you here to make Louis happy and like it. How how much of a monster listat is justifies the fact that they're going to attempt to murder him, and you know these things are all happening for a reason. Um. There was also a reveal about rashid Um at the end of this week's episode that was, um, he's louise Like personal assistant. Oh oh right, right, the one that he like also sucks on, yes, um, And it's I

don't know where they're going with it. There's a lot, There's plenty of theories, and people who know more about the an Rice universe might have better ideas about it. But I just am so enthralled by this show. I'm so happy that you know, it was renewed for a second season before the first season even started, so we're getting more. There's also, um, the Mayfair Witches series that begins,

I believe in January. So they are building out this immortal universe with all the different and Rice properties, and I'm just very excited to see where we go from here. And I have been reading with that Louis fan fiction. No surprises there, Um, will you be watching a Bobby kind of Volley fan fiction after consuming The Watcher on Netflix. No, but I did. I was, so, I've only watched like four or five episodes of The Watcher. I've been watching it with Ryan. Can I can I not watching more

than four or five episodes? Um, but I did. I did ask Ryan, Um, because we both think Bobby kind of all it is really sexy. I asked Ryan if he would murder rose Burne if he got to suck off Bobby kind of all a and he said yes without hesitation. I said, but what if Spy two was already in pre production? And then he said no, because we couldn't. We couldn't keep Rose burn from being in Spy Too. No, we need Spy to. We need Spy To. Um.

What else? What other impressions you have on like the series in gen I mean, it's so it's on to me, Like having finished it, I feel like it's so um not good. Um. Yeah, I don't know that I'm going to finish it. I don't know if I'm going to watch it outside of the context of watching it with Ryan and kind of like giggling through it. Yeah, it's I did read the New York Magazine article that it's based off of because I kind of wanted the real life context of it, and also I wanted to spoil

myself and see how it was going to end. Um And what I found very frustrating is that the mystery is unsolved. Um so I do. I mean, we don't have to necessarily spoil it for the virgins, you don't have to get into specifics. But it is a limited series. Is there a definitive ending? Is the Watcher unveiled? No that I don't like. Sorry, Yeah, it is such a it makes you It makes the whole show feel like such a colossal waste of time because it's not even

very well written. Like to me, Ryan Murphy saw White Lotus and was like, there is an American horror story version of this, and that's why he started to work on The Watcher. He probably also watched you know, The Undoing or you know, Fucking the Staircase or something like that, Like, yeah, it's it's there. There's a clear um context that that the show is sitting within there, there is a trend that it is that it is hopping on for sure. Yeah.

So to me that the show is very watchable, like no pun int um and that, but that is because of I think the casting is amazing, Like Bobby kind of Vale, Margot Martindale, Jennifer Coolidge is really good. Mia Faroh when was the last time, you know, we got to see herself which also Nomadumezwenny was Hermione and Harry Potter and the Curse Child. Yes, and she is to

me the best character in the undoing as well. Um. I what I like about the show is that I think it um is a really good depiction of uh, you know this modern you know, American horror, which is the horror of living outside your means and what that

can lead to. Because you know, we see this family, you know, buying this house that they can't afford and then they're stuck there, I mean to be fair, that also literally is the plot of American Horror story season one Murder House, Like they're living in a haunted house so they can't afford to move out of. Um, you know, the casting is amazing. Um. I think casting me a pharaoh is genius because of the Rosemary's Baby of it all, because you know, this is essentially the plot of Rosemary's Baby.

Um it is I've never seen it. Oh yeah, Rosemary's Baby is about you know, this woman who you know, moves into an apartment with her husband and they have all these creepy neighbors and their secret passages and like people. I mean, like that is like literally Satan Nick and like she's im like raped and like impregnated with the Antichrist. But it's like very obvious why she was cast because of all those parallels. And I think in the couple

episodes that I've watched, I think she's criminally under used. Yes, and also like she deserves a show that's better written than this. I'm sorry, Like I know Ryan Murphy can kind of get whoever he wants, but like Mia Farrow is so she needs to do more things. And I don't know this was I don't understand why the their bed is in the middle of their bedroom. It was so confusing to me. Also, Nami Watts never wears the

same thing twice. She has so many fucking chunky, you know, alpaca sweaters and like duster coats, and I mean, she looks great. Can you explain I want her entire wardrobe? Can you explain to me why girls why the girls love Naomi Watts? Like I don't really, I don't. I don't know any I've only seen her in King Kong and I think that's it. Uh. She is sort of she's blonde, she's blonde, she's she's like she's like in

a cool kidman variant. She you know. I think they came up around similar times, and Naomi Watts has she's kind of one of the if you know, you know girls actually who Weekly talked about her recently because they were talking about the watch her and like they understand celebrity culture in a way that I never will. So I would definitely suggest like listening to their take on the Naomi Wats of it all. I think she's just a very good actress. She's a pretty white, blonde woman.

She was in the Ring. It is kind of crazy that the Ring is the thing that she's the most famous for, like on a on a sort of mainstream mass appeal level. I've seen The Ring and I did not know she was in that. But that wasn't like in high school, so I'll forgive myself for that. I want to chew Bobby Kinnavali's eyebrows off his face in a sexual way. He is so that sounds hard I mean he and he's also an incredible actor. Yeah, he's a great actor. I saw him. He and Rose Byrne,

who is his wife. They did a production of Media at BAM a couple of years ago where they played the main characters and it was so good and like they were so amazing on stage together. One of the things that they didn't understand. Okay, so the episode where the daughter like goes live on TikTok and and and you know, spins this conflict that's happening between her father and her boyfriend into like into her father being racist. Is she an influencer? Like why did why did it

go viral? Why does his assistant come in and with the phone? Like is this your daughter? Like what you don't get? Though I don't she's not an influencer. I think it just went viral. Like I think she went viral as an army, which like nobody writes I've I've actually, I have yet to see a piction of someone going viral that I felt was like effective or like added

to the story. Like I I'm trying, I mean maybe that I don't know, I'm trying to think of others, but like I just like it's It's just a lot of times when things are written like that, I'm like, this is something, this is written by someone who doesn't use social media, Like I just I don't get it. Um, But but I that on top of that, to your point, like that is like one of like many many inconsistencies in how the plot unfolds. And something that's amazing is that, um,

the casting is great and everyone is a suspect. So that does create a very playful and fun viewing experience where you're trying to figure out who it is. Yes, every time a new character is introduced, I'm like, yep, they're in on it. She's in on it, he's in on it. Yes, And I think that's great. It's just, um, it's infuriating that there's there's no there's no reveal. I yeah, I was. I was reading that New York Magazine article like,

oh my god, this is so long. I can't wait of the end when they reveal who it is, and then there's no reveal. The show also fabricates like a large majority of the things that happened in the actual show, which is fine. I'm fine with that, but it must be said, Yeah, I mean based on the article that I read. Really, the only thing that happened was the letters. The letters, That's the entirety of what happened to them. Yeah,

it's it's kind of Google Okay. So now I think it's kind of the part where to two roads diverge and we're maybe going to talk about some things that we've each been consuming on our own. Um, I've seen some theater recently that we just would like to to talk about briefly. I did mention that I'm pretty sure that I got COVID at Hadestown, which I saw a couple of weeks ago. Um, I I thought Hadestown sucked so much, and it has been such a cultural phenomenon

over the past couple of years. It's like one of those pieces of theater that has really crossed over into the mainstream. And like I understand why that is, because because it is kind of the show that tricks normal people into thinking that they're watching something really deep and it just isn't. Like I did not feel anything while watching it there. I did not feel a single emotion. And it's such a failure for anyone who doesn't know Hadestown is about, you know, the myth of Orpheus and

eurityosy Um. But also it kind of isn't it you know, places the myth in this sort of like steam punk like nineteen twenties esque context. It's like post industrial um, and it almost like can't decide if it wants to be literally about the myth of Orpheus and Euridicy and you know, Haiti isn't Persephone and these mythological characters, or if it wants to be this like you know, like work shoppy ass like tumbler musical. It's so tumbler. All the music was very forgettable. I just like really did

not enjoy it. UM do not recommend UM. And then last week I saw Weathering Heights at St. Anne's Warehouse UM, which had kind of similar vibes, like very deconstructed UM. So it's like, what are you saying. It's like Vaudavillian, Like you can see the pieces of the theater and it's you know, it's it's like black box theater. It's like yeah, like you know, there's like a door that's rolled on stage, and you know there's like puppets and um.

All of the chorus members play multiple characters or like the same actor plays a father and a son at different points in their lives. Um The main issue with it is that it fails that the basic responsibility of what a musical is supposed to do. In musicals, characters sing because they feel an emotion so deeply that they can no longer say it, they have to sing it, and this show does not do that. M Rice, who adapted Weathering Heights into this production and directed it, was

clearly very passionate about maintaining Bronte's words. But I think it's too faithful of an adaptation because the characters speak lines of dialogue lifted directly from the novel, but they speak them and then a scene later they sing a song that has nothing to you with what they were just talking about, Like when Kathy says, I am Heathcliff. This like iconic line of dialogue. That is one of

the best ways in literature anyone has ever written. You know, the idea of a loving someone so much that you feel like you are them. It is so integral to

your character. That should have been a song I Am Heathcliff should have been sung, and instead she says it, and then a scene later she picks up a microphone like she's in Spring Awakening and sings a rock song that has nothing to do with anything she's been saying and just feels like someone wrote a play, and then at the end they were like, oh, let's put music

in it. That's such a missed opportunity, because like with with both Wuthering Heights and with Um you know Orpheus and your writtasy, like these are too, those are these are tragic stories, and with Rvous and your writticcy, there's so much room to play with nailing down and describing what that tragedy feels like. And similarly with Wuthering Heights, it's like, even though you know, Bronte has so much on the page that we can read like that is a moment where it's like it's a song and damn,

that's that's really disappointing. Yeah, and it just made me wish it had been a Kate Bush jukebox musical. I don't know why it wasn't Um. Also, it did remind me a lot of the sort of deconstructed nous and

like workshopp nous of. It reminded me a lot of the ocean at the end of the Lane, which is a play based on a novel by Neil Gaiman that has sort of a similar staging and also uses music, but uses music, you know in scene changes, like also kind of in the way that Harry Potter and the Chris Child does you Know image And he wrote this entire score for that show and it uses music without calling itself a musical. And I think this show would have been much better if it had done that. And

I still really like the staging. Um. The second act was much better than the first act. The first the show is three hours, and the first act felt like it was three hours long because the first act ends with Cathy dying, and it's like, okay, well, if you decide that that's how the first act ends, it's up to you to edit things out so that you're not just like going through the story up until that point and it feeling like a hundred years long. But I still enjoyed myself. I had a good time. It was

nice to be at the THEATA. I love I love a term you've coined, which is work shoppy. That is such a good way to describe a lot of things, especially on the stage. Like I would much prefer something that feels work shoppy, unfinished or imperfect, like doesn't quite say what it wants to say, but at least it tries over something that you know, tried too hard to be perfect and polished and ultimately didn't try anything. You know, but like this sounds like it wasn't very successful and

so they made a lot of choices. They're just very A lot of them were wrong. A lot of them were wrong. What have you been engaging in that I have not been privy too well. I am watching this current season of Great British Baking Show and I don't have much to report on because it's not a short, it's not a show really to report on. UM, but they had this for the very first time, they had

Mexico Week, which really was incredible. It exceeded all of my expectations and was such an exceptional episode of like reality TV. And you know, anyone that's on Twitter saw the clips that were you know, out there, UM this amazing contestant calling guacamole glocky molo. I felt like joy filled, filling to the brim of my heart watching a bunch of white people and non Latin people attempt to understand Mexican cuisine. Um. Cultural appropriation is good again, That's what

I'm trying to say. We we as a society need to create more things wherein white people are struggling to master the thing the things that don't belong to them, right, this is one of those I think there I don't. I didn't really see any very serious discourse about it, but I know that there are people out there that are like, canceled to Mexico Week, How dare You a

great British baking show? And I was like, actually, like the show was very aware of what it was doing and flexed on what it's good at, which is kind of portraying lovable and income poops. Like like really like that that's, at the end of the day, what it was. And I really love they really and income poop is

the is the word. Um. I will say just on a hold that the contestants where we're at now, I really hope that Maxi is the winner and that she beats out Yanush, who is kind of the judge's favorite and the one that's most technically perfect. There's always one guy that's like a robotically technically a perfect baker, and it's so soulless and yet he wins every challenge and I don't want it to be him. But there's this man on the show that is also going to be

in the top three in my opinion, name Sandro. You've seen pictures of Sandra, haven't you? I have not? Oh my god, wait, I actually we need the live react right now of Rose seeing images of Sandra from Great British. And to be clear, I will watch the show over the past couple of years, I've watched every season. I just prefer to watch it all at once and and not week to week. Um. Oh wow, he is so fucking fine. And he's also huge. Oh my god, he's a huge man, and he's an exquisite sexy baker. His

hand his hands look very large, so large. Anyways, we're rooting for you, Sandrow. Um okay, what else have I paid consuming? Oh oh okay, this is good, A good call back to our Stephen King episode. I finally watched Carrie the original. Yes, the non Chloe Grace Mourettes carry, the only carry, the only carry I recognize. Yes. Um, I want to say, you know, on top of our conversation in that episode that we failed to talk about how John Travolta is in this movie what I had,

and it's very sexy. Young John Travolta was really hot. And also don't don't cancel me, but John Travolta since he shaved his head is hot again. Oh my god, Rose, that's so bad. He is literally it is what it is. He is one of the most powerful people in the Scientology church. Like he has ascended to a tear of Scientology. He has a title I can't remember what, but he got the funk up. He has a title I can't remember the titleist, but the clearance that he has in

the yeah yeah, dick sucker in chief. Um, he has clearance in Scientology that is so powerful that he is allowed to kill, Like he can kill someone and Scientology allows it as a like within the architecture of their belief systems. Well, maybe I need to think more about George Um which also like listen watching Carry, I was like, wait, was John Travolta's like last like like meaningful appearance in

Hollywood Hairspray. I I literally like we could pull up the IMDb that is like it is actually incredible that his his his final most like known performance in the Eons of a career that someone as legendary as John Tribolda has had was dressing up as it was hairspray, and then it was adult dosime and oh right, adult desime. He has contributed so much, he is he is a king.

It's true. It's true. Um. But anyways, on the carry of it all, the thing that I just wanted to say on top of our conversation is that it's so deranged, like the way the movie is directed, but not just like in a horrific way, Like the way the movie is directed is so bizarre, and every single fever dream yes, And and the way I would describe it is like every single character feels like they are a woman on the verge of a nervous breakdown, right, Like every single

character is at the absolute max some them of what they can handle at the beginning of every scene, and one single stimuli puts them over the edge. Like everyone in this movie, not just Carry, not just her mom. Everyone is hysterical, like in hysterics. And I thought that that was such a funny lens on um the story as a whole. I think there's something kind of Stephen Kingy about that, Like I think that his characters are really, um,

extremely melodramatic. I don't even know if melodrama is the word. It's obviously um camp in a lot of ways in its purest form, but like I was so engaged from the jump by how wild and weird this movie is, like, Um, I don't know that I agree that Carry is camp.

Maybe Piper Laurie a little bit. No, it's definitely. I think if you rewatch it, I mean, like fucking I have watched it, watched it many times, you're gonna tell me that Carries Mom in her nightgown holding the knife up and smiling like like crazy is like not to some extent like camp, like I also honestly even in the beginning, like um, Sissy SpaceX, like first like seven minutes of dialogue, it's just like her wailing, like she

has no line. She goes like something something truly horrifying that's happening to her and she thinks she's dying, right, but like truly post verbal, like no real words like I. And that's like kind of what I'm alluding to, Like there's there. It's funny how emphatic every character was directed to be and how I don't know I thought. I just thought that that's something that made the movie so much weirder and more interesting. Um to watch, and I

really appreciated it visually as well. Um, so it's a beautiful film, great movie to re visit. You saw Halloween Ends. I did. I did watch Halloween Ends on Peacock. I very fran tried watching Halloween Kills. Halloween Kills is disgusting, horrible. I started. I watched I should you not at least twenty minutes of it, but before realizing that there was a movie that came before this movie that I did not watch. Um, yeah, it's it seemed really bad and boring.

But um, Kyle Richard's love, Oh Kyle was so good in Halloween Kills. She was the best part of the movie. Very underused in Halloween Ends. You know, a lot of people really don't seem to like it. I think it's it's a very quiet way to end this forty five

year franchise and story. But I thought it did some interesting things with the way it carried on the idea of Michael Myers as this sort of spiritual evil that has haunted Laurie Strode her entire life, and in Halloween Ends, there is a character who sort of takes up Michael's legacy, and you see how a normal person, through a series of really tragic circumstances, could become a killer. Um, which I thought was interesting and I liked that it is

a definitive ending to Laurie's story to Michael Myers. And it's certainly not a perfect film, and I'm glad I watched it on Peacock rather than seeing it in theaters. Um, because it's it's a movie that you know, you look at your phone during is what you're saying, Oh, totally totally spoiler alert. How did they? How did die? Jamie?

The Curtis kills him, and then um, to make sure that he is dead once and for all, they string him up on a car, and the whole town sort of like gathers and they parade through the streets and they take him to like the Junkyard and put him

through an industrial grinder while everyone watches. That's great, yeah, um, And the whole movie is sort of about how, you know, you're understanding how the town hates Laurie Strode because this very personal, you know, battle she's having with Michael Myers has really impacted all of them, and so it is very cathartic that they all get to watch him die. Speaking of movies, I don't want to talk about it this week because I really want to wait to have

this conversation until you've seen it. But I saw My Policeman in theaters and really, actually surprisingly liked it, and so we will talk about it. I want you to see it. It also doesn't come out on Amazon, I think until this Friday, So Virgins, if you want to watch it and here our takes, watch it and we'll talk about it next week. I'm I'm probably gonna like it too. I'm a little bit of a higher I think you will. And it has problems, that has flaws,

but I really liked it despite the splaws. I think it's a lovely film that is very well acted and well made. Damn Okay, we'll talk about it next week. We'll be back with an episode all about Indie Slee's so um you know. Dig into your tumbler archives, break out your American apparel v neck check to see which book items are from the Urban outfit our skift table. In the meantime, you can connect with us on Instagram at like a Virgin, Um, did we miss anything you

wanted us to talk about this week? Are you happy Halloween's over? You're looking forward to the holidays? Let us know, and please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us so much. I'm your co host, Rose Damn You. You You can find me anywhere online at Rose Damn You, and I'm friend. You can find me at friends, squish co, anywhere you want subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts, and please leave us a rating on Spotify or review on Apple Podcasts. Like a Virgin is

an I Heart radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Cranechitch and Nikki Tour Until next week. Choose, as Lydia Tar would say in Berlin, my