Buffalo Bill's Nipple Ring

Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins. UM. It has it has everything and thrills, the chills, thrills, chills, stressing, cannibalism, UM, skin suits, nipple piercing, really good. And you know, obviously we're going to look back on it through a contemporary lens and talk about what we liked about it, what didn't like about it. UM. You know how it's sort of I think spawned the true crime genre that exists today. UM. And also it's a part of a maybe problematic or

maybe not UM portrayal of gender devian people. We get into it, yes, because this is like a version of the show where we get yesterday's pop culture, today's takes, I'm rosed on you, and I'm fran Toronto. So in these in these bonus episodes this month, we will only be covering the main topic, so you'll get your news

as normal on Thursday. You know, this is kind of a rare occurrence on the pod in that the cultural object that I am quote unquote introducing you to is one that is not actually super formative for me because I had never even seen Silence of the Lambs until a year ago. It was it was somehow a cultural blind spot for me. But I watched it last year, totally loved it, and um, now you've and I watched it last night and we're going to dive into it. Obviously.

You know, this is one of those movies that sort of you can't exist in pop culture and not know about this film. Yeah, it was definitely a movie that swept the Oscars, was a moment in the culture. Was highly polarizing, controversial, but prestige and has you know, has been referenced and rebooted. And you know, Hannibal Lecter is

such a looming figure. He's one of the most celebrated horribly villains of all time, things like with faba beans and a nice kiante, like those are just things that we say, like they're part of the lexicon of pop culture that is Clarice um, you know all of that. It puts the lotion on its skin. It's there's just this movie of the looms very large in the cultural consciousness. And it's also very queer. Um well often we often problematically, so I mean it's very queer and that it depicts

queerness in a pathologizing kind of depiction of queerness. I guess, you know, it has a queer villain, and it has some things to say about transness, and it is part of a canon of films with gender deviant villains. Yeah. So if for anyone who out there who has never seen Silence of the Lambs, for all the True Virgins, Silence of the Lambs is a film that is based on a novel. It is about Clarice Sterling, who's a

young FBI agent in training. She's still at schools sensibly lesbian um and she gets pulled into work on a case with Hannibal Lecter, who is a professor, a doctor, doctor, psychiatrist, doctor who is in you know, a maximum security um psychiatric facility for murder, because there is a killer on the loose who Lector used to treat and he's asked for Clarice specifically, and she needs to work with him to help them find the missing girl who's been captured

by Buffalo Bill. Has been captured by Buffalo Bill, who is a gay cross dressing serial killer who skins his victims alive so that he can wear their flesh, which is like J. K. Rowling could not have invented a better gender deviant villain. I'm sure she will borrow from it in future. She has, she has, she released a book recently where there's a trans um killer. I mean, when you watched it a year ago, how did you

feel about it? Like what was your loved it? And you know, I'm sure you will have a lot of thoughts about the queerness, and I'm sure that's a point where we we'll we'll really dig into and and possibly disagree on. I really liked it. I love you know, I love horror movies in general. I think I lean towards things that are like a little bit more fantastical or scary, but I love a psychological thriller, and Silence

of the Lambs is the psychological thriller. I would say, I like to throw you down a hole, but I'd have to fatten you up first. You have to. That's one of the things I liked was, you know, there's fat representation because, as it's explained, Buffalo Bill only kidnaps plus size women because there's more skin for him to work. And then he starves. He starves them so they get all a little loose and flabby. He puts them on a crash diet. He's got a he's got a peloton

down there in the whole. He's got them away watchers prescription. Um, you don't get prescribed weight watchers. You get driving here against your will by your mom. Like what happened to me in middle school. Oh my god, yeah, oh god, we're taking that out. No, no, no no, keep it in, keep it in, keep it in. Um okay, okay, okay, okay. I will say, um. The thing that you talked about right at the top, about how Silence of the Lambs like is kind of omnipotent in a lot of like

thriller culture. I think it's part of the reason why I was kind of like bored. When I watched it, I wouldn't say yeah, I thought a lot of it was like slow, unappealing. Like I didn't think that Anthony Hopkins was that scary. I thought for me, like Jody was the best part of the movie. But I don't I want to say that that's on a taste level, Like I'm not trying to say that I think the movie is like bad, right, Like but what I was, no, no, no, no, I don't think the movie is bad. Um, it's just

not my taste. But I think that the thing you're talking about, the omnipotence, is actually the reason I didn't enjoy the movie. I was watching it and being like my brain was kind of being like, oh, that's kind of cliche, like, oh, I've kind of seen that before.

It's like, oh, I've like already watched so many movies that I've done this before, but Silence of the Lamps was the first one a lot it is the blueprint, and because it's yes, and because it was the blueprint, watching something like was actually like not scary at all, and like it's like I I know, yeah, yeah yeah, and like again it's it's only because I'm watching it and not that I'm having this experience of the film, but I think the you know, transphobia and queer phobia

of it all that that we're gonna get into later is the kind of icing on the cake of why the totality of the movie was just kind of like met for me. But I do think the climax is really good. I think the dramatic tension is obviously masterful. I don't really understand the best actor wins, but like, yeah, that's just that's just something that I have to disagree with. Yeah,

I think I think they are both incredible performances. Anthony Hopkins, I think like every second he's on screen, you can't look away from him, and he is just so I don't think there had been this kind of figure in a movie at this point in pop culture of this like um, like the elevated villain, you know, like the stoic good manners even spoken, you know, he wasn't a caricature of a monster, even though he does very monstrous things.

He's literally a cannibal um. And I think that dichotomy is sort of what makes him such a compelling villain, is you know, he wants to eat you, but with fava beans and a nice kiante, right or right? Yeah, that actually that line perfectly distills like I think him

as a character. For me, it almost like made him boring, like like that was like again like that the experience I was having a of the film, But like, I think it's worth noting that, like they went out to so many other prestige actors before landing on Anthony Hopkins, who had like a lot of credits but wasn't as big as um Sean Connery who was the first person

to to be tapped for the role al Pacino. Robert de Niro, Dustin Hoffman, Daniel day Lewis, and even Forest Whittaker audition for this role, which, like Forest, would have been amazing. I'm sure, but yeah, I I don't know. I feel like that, but I don't think it could have been anyone but Anthony Hopkins. He just does it so perfectly. I think Dustin Hoffman would have been good, but that's because I can't really see him because he's

never played a role like this. And I would say that his role in I would say him as Hook is actually maybe a little but he's not like a cannibal in Hook and I think a lot of effeminate, villainous even sure maybe yeah that's a that's a bit of elite. But you know, I do believe that Silence of the Lambs is very much an outlier in horror being given. You know, may and stream critical acclaim it was unprecedented. Also something Jaws was like the only one.

Maybe yeah. Also it was a huge commercial success and um, something that I learned recently about part of what contributed to that is that it came out at the beginning of the year, and it had a whole year until Awards season, and so it came out and then later

that year was already released on home video. So it was something that so many people were able to watch as the fervor around it really built up, so that by the time the Oscars came around, it had reached this critical mass of consumption and it was just the something that everyone had seen and it was like unavoidable, like to you know, talk about it it being a good movie, like it was a great movie. It was both, you know, a critical success and a commercial one, and rarely,

if ever, do those things overlap. Today, you know, we have this idea of like the popcorn movies and then the serious films, and this is one of the few times that those two have come together in this kind of way. Yeah, there are certain VHS tape covers that are like on the shelves of Blockbuster that are now singed into your memory from like browsing when I was like eight or ten or whatever, and Silence of the Lambs, like that cover is deaf with the mom with the moth. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

it's very like it has a punked um. You know, it's immediately something that a punked um. What is that? It's like a photography term where like you take a photo and the photo just works because all of the different components of it are like coming together. Like it's kind of like it's kind of like the Oprah's Aha moment of like an image, you know what I mean. You're like, this image just works, and there's something to it that I can't necessarily describe, but it's just like

you're like, I can't forget it. You know. Do you know who they went out to for Jennie Foster's role before she got it? Um, Michelle Fiverer, Okay, Meg Ryan and Laura Dern. Laura would have been amazing Yeah. And I wonder if you know, looking at these looking at these lists of all the people who passed on it, I think probably what you know I've just been talking about is probably part of the reason is these actors didn't want to quote unquote lower themselves to be in

this like paperback adaptation, you know, mainstream popcorn movie, horror movie. Um, that ended up being a huge, you know, commercial and critical success and really made the careers of Jodie Foster and and like Athoney Hopkins may be to a lesser except definitely career defining, career defining. This is the role

that he will always be remembered for, certainly not Westworld. Yeah, and to your point, um, Sean Connery when he read the script, he was like, this is like revolting or something, and he turned it down, and Michelle Fifer turned it on specifically because she was like, I can't do this subject matter like it's two it's two issue. Um can

I can I say? When we were watching the movie, I think, honestly, here's here's here's what I'm actually how I'm actually feeling a little bit about the movie is that like I, um, I'm again, I'm not trying to say it's like bad or anything, or like take it down a peg. No, no, I actually am trying to take it down a peg because, like I think, when I was watching it, is like, this is an amazing movie.

I don't really feel that it belongs in the canon of greatest movies of all time, because it is frequently ranked in the greatest movies of all time kind of lists that critics and cinefils always make, like this is always up there. I feel like I'm seeing it everywhere.

And when I watched it, I was like, the greatest movie of all time is like timeless, and like this is not timeless at all, Like it has it lacks a relevancy in the conceit of the murders and like the kind of reveal of this skin suit and like all these different things. I was like, it just doesn't feel um. It didn't feel at all like something I could give myself to um in terms of like the dramatic tension, you know what I mean. Like I was just kind of distracted by it. But but and this

is not me being shady. Isn't that just kind of the nature of how you watch movies as you are very distracted and this movie is very slow and introspective. Yeah, um no, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am very easily bored. That is totally true. I think, Um, part of what I'm responding to is like the Riddler energy that, like Anthony Hopkins was giving Jodie Foster, like when he was just like, you know, being like of low bills in any agram for fucking I don't know, bubble butt or whatever.

It's like it's like I actually like don't care about the instagrams, Like I don't care about like the puzzles. I think. So, I think that's so clever. I just I didn't there were too many angiograms and anagrams, too many anagrams, too many of the kind of like riddles and clues, and I was just like, but that's the whole point of the movie. Yeah, but it wasn't like true that's not how true crime works, Like, but what

do you mean by that? Because in a lot of ways, this movie is kind of one of the origins of our contemporary fascination Withdrew crime, because I think because the things that the clues revealed, like the fact that Hester whatever her faces is like an anagram for the rest of her or something like that. I was like, it's just it wasn't compelling to me, Like it wasn't like mine shattering lee, Like it wasn't a mind shattering twist.

Like that's kind of how I was and being such like a kind of Debbie Downer about this, Like I actually, I think you're look. I think the thing is this is not a movie about twists, and you know it's funny because it is about twists. The skin suit is a big reveal, Yeah, but it's not a movie where it's like there's one singular gag that it's all built. I think the skin suit is one singular gag that

the movie. I don't. I don't think so. I think this movie, more than anything, is about the relationship between Clarice and Hannibal actor. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, obviously, and that's no. But but that's the most interesting part of it and the most enduring part of it. So I think you're kind of a little bit judging it against the movie that you kind of were expecting it to be, rather than the movie it actually is. Yeah. I think so too. Um My main takeaway honestly is that I want Buffalo

Bill's nipple ring. I think it was really good. Yeah, I see, this is how I keep saying, I want to get my nipples reaps. And it was cool. It was like, okay, perfect, perfect nipple ring. Let's talk about the Buffalo Bill, because I think you're going to have a different take on this than I am. Maybe you won't,

but I don't have a problem with Buffalo Bill. I think Buffalo Bill's iconic um and one of the things I appreciate about this movie that gets lost and abstracted a lot in the way that we talk about it more broadly in pop culture. The Thomas Harris's novel and the film are very specific in saying that Buffalo Bill is not trans. Yeah, he's a man. He's a man.

And Thomas Harris has said multiple times, both when his book came out, when this movie came out, and in year's past that he wanted to make it very clear that Buffalo Bill wasn't trans, and he has said I think in years since like that he still feels like he let down trans people in the way that Buffalo Bill is depicted, and I think more so the way that culture reacted to Buffalo Bill and the way that Buffalo Bill has kind of become this symbol of like

what transphobic people think about trans people. Um. But I did really appreciate that nuance in the movie, even though it's obviously a very dated kind of nuanced because the way that they like quote unquote decide that Buffalo Bill are approved, that Buffalo Bill isn't trans is that he doesn't want surgery. He doesn't kind of fit the bill of of you know, trans people who have like a sort of diagnosable um, you know, like illness of being trans.

It is a little trans medicalist. Yeah, I think that. I think the word pathologizing is the right word for how this, um, how Buffalo Bill's character goes down, um in the same in the same way like most horror films pathologized like people with disabilit at ease, right or like we've also we've probably seen other kind of trans villainy reveals and stories in horror films of your and so you know, to your point, like, yes, I I think when I watched the Buffalo Bill character, I was like,

this is like, to me, scary, really well done. The use of the fucking Horses song was amazing. Um. I think the sequence when he's like dancing is great so good. It's I think was my favorite like part of the film, like the reveal of that and the nipple ranging all that stuff, Like I actually really loved it. So I, um, before I kind of like give my take, I actually I'm curious. So are you saying so you said the book specifically says Buffalo Bill is not trans. Do you

think the movie blurs those lines? Are you think the movie also says no? The movie also says that the movie also says that you don't think there's like a kind of okay. So the movie also says that despite that, culturally people can inflate the experience of like trans people with like serial killer cross dresser. Yes, because if you look at it on its face, Buffalo Bill is someone who wants to um possess and wear femininity in like

a very literal way. He wants to skin these women and turn them into clothing that he can wear, which is something that it's a it's a trope that exists.

Um when you talk about trans people and why turfs and transwobs hate trans people, especially trans women, is because they think that they are co opting um and appropriating femininity to wear as a costume in order to gain access to women's spaces and brutalize them, right, And that is a discussion that did not exist, at least in the mainstream in and so I think my the way

I kind of felt when I was watching it. First of all, it must be said that like you and I would love to write a serial killer thriller where a trans woman is the big bad, you know what I mean, like or trans person is the big bad. Like that would be an amazing movie. Um. Second of all, there's nothing that I or you can really say that hasn't already been said in like the Disclosure documentary if you haven't watched it, they talked about silence of Lambs

briefly in a really distinct way. I am someone who doesn't like go to old movies and be like canceled it's so problematic, like this movie is so transphobic or like whatever. Um, because, as I said, like the discussions just weren't like that in ninety one. This is like, to some extent, as good as it got for trans people on screen, or rather gender deviant people on screen,

which is like a more accurate term here. And um, I think all I'm trying to say is that because of the now dated conversations around cross dressing in the film, I don't really feel like it's one of the greatest movies of all time. Like that's like really what I'm trying to say and why I'm being a little bit of a sour puss about it. But like I do, like I want to see trans Billains, Like that's like my tea. Like I want to see like even like this Dahmer series that came out or whatever. I'm like,

and he's like a gay serial killer or whatever. It's like I want to watch that, like I do. Like I'm sorry, but like I do want to watch that, And I mean the difference, the difference for me is that's based in reality and this is a fantasy that is like fully a lot of how I felt it about it too, But just as quick as I I unfortunately watched the entire series. I know you did, and

I don't. I don't um you know, judge you harshly for that, because I think there is a direct line from Silence of the Lambs to Dahmer Silence of the Lambs move all the movies that came after it that were inspired by it, The Rise of True crime podcasts. All of these things have led to something like Dahmer existing, and a lot of people want to consume that type

of media. Yeah, the show really tries to justify itself and justify the real life harm that this show is enacting on the real life families of the victims that are in this story, like literally in this story. Um, and there's a lot about it, like on Twitter or like in reviews that you can read about. Um. That's honestly.

What's unfortunate is like the rest of the series actually was like some of Ryan Murphy's like better thriller drama and Recent Memory, Like it's better than a lot of like recent American horror stories series, but it's just the wrong franchise. Like it doesn't make sense. It's so cliche and expected for him to do something like this. But like even the title, like the title is Dahmer Colin Monster Colin the Jeffrey Dahmer's Story, Like what the fund

is that? It's like he was like, Oh, I want to make it a true I want it to be um, a fucking American horror story series. But like that's too like dangerous and like the victims won't like that. So I'm gonna invent a new franchise called Monster because it doesn't exactly fit into like the American crime story series either, Like it just totally it does not make any sense.

I feel like they're in the in the rest of just to like air out a handful of complaints now that I have about this series, because like I just need to say something. But like there are a handful of like virtuous like cop narratives. The show tries to also be a very black story and tries to center the victims and tries to show their side of the story.

And Niss Nash is like a really good hero in um how the arc of this series moves, but it's like you can't, Like I was telling you, I was telling you that there's like this scene specifically where um uh you know, Niss Nash is like she lives in this apartment complex where Doahmer killed a bunch of people, like some of his most gruesome murders and their people.

As the story you know, um comes to light in the series, there are um looky loose who come and like take photos of the murder house, and nice Nash is like people died here, like these are our real lives and you're standing here taking photos and I'm like, this is is actually what the show is doing. That's

insane And it's a complete lack of self awareness. Literally like I'm sorry, Like Bryan Murphy is like farting and then like eating his own farts like it it actually makes no sense, but it's just like this is like when we can when we consume culture like this, especially culture that's like ultimately in the hands of like white creators, the question of intent actually does become really important, but also like warped and tricky because we don't really know

the intent of like how everyone is supposed to be, like seen in this series, and whether Dahmer is supposed to be, whether you're supposed to There are a few moments where like you sympathize for Dama and I'm like,

what the fuck is this? Like what is this? And there is I will say the sixth episode, which is one of the best episodes of TV I've seen this year, unfortunately, UM tells the story of this black death victim, a black gay death victim of Damers, and the story is kind of almost like a bottle episode that follows him around and how he comes into Dahmer's orbit. And this is unfortunately also the episode where you have like a hair of sympathy for Dahmer because he almost builds a relation.

This is the only victim that he ostensibly builds a relationship with, which is completely fabricated, not real at all. But um. Most of the episode is in a s l and the actor um Rodney Burford, who's from Deaf You, which is like one of my favorite Like I loved that show so much if you haven't watched it, Um a first time actor, deaf actor cast in a death role and I was like, this is like, like so amazing to watch. I just like hate that it's um

in service of something that is like so horrible. Um. The ninth episode is directed by gregor Acki, which is kind of cool. I know to interview him once and I like almost pissed ship and came all at the same time. He's one of my cultural blind spots. I don't really which we should do. We should do an episode, we should um watch Doom Generation and talk about it. Oh, um,

like back to our like John Wayne Gayzy episode. Um. There is towards the end of the series, the Ryan Murphy kind of like cuts from Dahmer and introduces John Wayne Gaycey as a kind of like cultural character and moment during this time, because I guess like his murder was maybe happening, his like story was happening around the same time that Dahmer's story was coming out, or maybe john Wyn Gayzy was inspired by Dahmer's or something like that. I mean, there was kind of this era of serial

killers in the seventies eighties. Yeah, and it was really it was almost as if like Ryan Murphy was like pitching John Wayne Gaycy's show, Like it was like a completely backdoor pilot. Yeah, it wasn't. It was a backdoor pilots exactly what it was. There's also a virtuous landlord

narrative in this series that was like super annoying. And I feel like, at the end of the day, the show is still centering dam and centering dams parents, and it's like these are actually the narratives that we care the least about, that deserves the least amount of storytelling, But clearly the narratives that the people making the show

care the most about and the most interesting. They are the most interested in the pathology of the serial killer and that is something that our culture wants and is as as I said, you can trace it directly back to Silence of the Lambs, because this whole movie is about prothologizing a serial killer. To me, the thing that Silence of the Lambs does well, that unfortunately dam Were

also does kind of well. But that you say is the engine of the movie is the relationship and intimacy built with a serial killer that s real killer is not just this you know, oogie boogie monster lurking in shadows who you don't see until the end of the movie. Like the serial killer can be right at the beginning, um at some points helping and assisting the um prospects of moral good, um being a kind of almost accomplice

in the heroes, like I guess like main goals. Yeah, yeah, I mean, as I was saying before, the Silence of the Lambs is about It's not really about Buffalo bill If it's not about um, you know, Frederica Bimmel, it's about Clarice and Hannibal Lecter. I mean, it's right there in the title, the Silence of the Lambs. Can you still hear the lamb screaming? It's a which is something that Hannibal Lector says to Clarice. It's about their relationship.

And that is the most compelling thing about this movie. It's about a woman who has to dive into the absolute depths of evil in order to save someone. And what does she find there, what does she lose in the process, what does she learn about herself in the process? Um, And how does that change you? And like was it worth it? Was it worth it to save this life

for her? That now she is forever connected to this man and you kind of end the movie not knowing you know what is what is the cost of her you know, descent into hell basically, you know, with this man who she you know through um having him help her solve this case, escapes and it's at large in the world. Again, like was it worth it to save one life? And I don't know if you know this, but something else that really enriched the kind of like arc of that relationship was the fact that Jodie Foster

and Anthony Hopkins never spoke on set. Did you know that they literally never spoke on I mean, Anthony Hopkins is only in the movie for like fifteen minutes, you know, but like I like fifteen minutes total. But like it is, it is kind of crazy. You know. This kind of goes back to when we were discussing Pearl. I love a character study movie, um, and I think this film

does that so well. You know, so much of this movie is about Clariss's place, um in the FBI and what it's like to be a woman in her field. And you know, she spends the first half of the movie kind of being dismissed or used or sexualized by the men around her. And then the one man who respects her is a serial killer, the one man who takes her seriously, and it makes her very important. It makes her the only person who can solve this crime and save the day. And that was what I found

really fascinating about it. Like, I don't get why Clarice is so special, Um, I don't get why Hannibal Lecter is obsessed with her. And I don't think there's an answer for those things. I don't think the film wants you to find out. I think it just wants you to keep asking those questions. Um, And those are the kind of movies I like. Uh. Jodie Foster very specifically took this role because she said she had the utmost

respect for um FBI agents. Did you know that she's the utmost respect for FBI agent she she took she decided to take on the role because she really respected what the How do we feel about the FBI? And in the context of you know, hating hating force, I love the FBI putting themselves in mortal danger. I think if that, if they want to do that, I'm I'm, you know, go off, queen. And I also think, you know,

women of the FBI representation matters rose like. I think that I think that, you know, Jennie Foster really went there. I think at one time in my life, I want to be an FBI agent. You would be amazing, You would be so good. But I think I would be so if I was Clarice. I mean I would have run off with Hannibal Lector and we would be, you know, like a cannibal power. Yeah. I think that's also something we should talk about, is the cannibalism of it all.

You know, it's I mean also going back to Dahmer, who you know, ate his victims because he wanted to feel close to them, He ate their hearts. What what is it with cannibalism. I'm not saying I want to eat human flesh because I'm a cannibal, or like because I want to like sure, you know, like be close to someone or like maintain their essence. I'm more approaching it from curiosity. Well, I mean, not to blow up your spot, but like, and I'm a biter. I was

just about to say, you're a biter. I'm got there before I am a biter. I have I have been told in sexual scenarios before that I bite a little too hard. I've experienced it on a sexual capacity, but you have bitten me. Well, we could make it a sexual capacity. Um. Yeah, I'm a scratch rum a biter, I'm a hair puller. Um anyways, and I both I like both inflicting and receiving pain. But I also want to say that I actually think people eating my body when I die would be the best case scenario for me.

I would love that instead of cremation or anything or yeah, well, because I don't really want to be buried, um, cremated shore, but I would love for my body to do something useful. I would love for it to nourish people, like if okay, if this was yellow Jackets, Um, and you needed to eat me to survive. I want you to eat me. If our plane goes down, Bran, I want you to eat you know that is a circumstance where and I

would eat someone. Yeah, and I know, and I know that I'm the one who's gonna get eaten because I think you're more of a survivalist. You would give up immediately, no offense. Yeah that's actually absolutely true. Yeah, yeah, you would literally like day one of Yellow Jackets. He'd be like goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Or would I end up being the like deer queen? M I could? I think I think you had the willpower. I think if I had the will but I think if I could

manipulate other people into like surviving for me. But I think you're too smart for I think you're like existence in this scenario is a scam and I don't know. Actually goodbye and the drama. Okay, that's that's but you would definitely become the dear queen more than I would sure. Um. But all that is to say is that when I die, um could be any day now, I would love for I would love nothing more than for you to feast on my flesh. Fran, thank you. I will keep that

in mind. Rows and Phoebe if you want to take a bite to this sour okay and date. This has been another special Halloween bonus f um. We will be doing spooky topics this entire month, but you can continue to send us suggestions if you want through Instagram, d m s or wherever you find us. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or rating on Spotify. It helps us so much. I'm your co host Fran Toronto and you can find me at Friends Squish Go wherever you want on social and I'm Rose Damn You.

You can find me at Rose Damn You wherever you want. And come back this Thursday because we'll be back with another regular episode with news and main topic. You can subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen. And this is an I Heeart radio production. Our producers Phoebe w Inter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Just Crane Chitch and Nikki. You tour until next week. See you later, Virgins. Bye,